On this episode, I welcome Lola Sanchez Liste, pediatric sleep coach and founder of Rockin Blinks. We discuss the following:

• How breastfeeding and sleep training can coexist
• Methods to consider
• How to wean baby from feeds
• How to prevent engorgement and mastitis
• So much more!

Find Lola online at www.rockinblinks.com and on Instagram @rockinblinks.

00;00;09;00 – 00;00;29;00

Dr. Mona

Thank you so much for being here for this episode. I’m so excited about this one. I am welcoming Lola Sanchez Liste, who is a pediatric sleep coach and founder of Rockin Blinks, and we are talking about an a very important topic. Breastfeeding and sleep training cannot be done. Thank you so much for being here today Lola.

 

00;00;29;05 – 00;00;45;07

Lola Sanchez Liste

Hi. Hi everyone. Thank you for having me here. I’m so excited. I always enjoy, talking with families and, support them in their sleep journey. So I think these are super important and relevant topics. And I’m happy that, I have the opportunity to showing you.

 

00;00;45;10 – 00;01;03;27

Dr. Mona

Oh, and when we were talking about topics, I asked Lola. I’m like, how comfortable do you feel about talking about breastfeeding and sleep training? And she jumped to the idea. And I’m just so grateful because, you know, there is a misconception that it can’t be done. And we’re going to talk about what we need to consider. If you are breastfeeding, mom, what I want you to think about, and if it’s possible.

 

00;01;03;28 – 00;01;08;16

Dr. Mona

But before we get started, tell me more about yourself, Lola, and why you started rocking blink.

 

00;01;08;19 – 00;01;29;20

Lola Sanchez Liste

Oh. Of course. So, Yeah. Hi, everyone. Again, I’m Lola, I am originally from Argentina. I live in New York. I have two children. They are seven and four years old. And actually I became a theatrically coach after becoming a mother. I was doing something completely different, before being a mother. And I started to become very passionate about this.

 

00;01;29;23 – 00;01;58;17

Lola Sanchez Liste

After experiencing the sleep deprivation and lack of answers that come with the newborn days, right? I had my own struggles with, postpartum anxiety, with breastfeeding challenges at the beginning. Initially, I created a practice that was called, Julia Daughter. That’s Julia sleeps in Spanish, working mostly with Latin American families. And most recently I created Brockton Blings that is a full platform with free and paid resources, with information for parents and professionals.

 

00;01;58;17 – 00;02;26;10

Lola Sanchez Liste

So whoever is looking for sleep information, sleep answers, I want that to be, safe place where they can find practical, information. But yes, basically my journey is related with my, motherhood journey. And understanding how hard it is, especially at the beginning, and how hard it is to find the right both sleep dynamic and breastfeeding or bottle feeding situation when you become a mom.

 

00;02;26;12 – 00;02;44;08

Dr. Mona

Oh, this is so great. So I think from your experience, obviously as a mom and as a sleep coach, and then also myself as a pediatrician who is very interested in breastfeeding and is getting her see, which is the certification to become a lactation consultant. This is something very important to me. So thank you so much for joining me.

 

00;02;44;22 – 00;03;13;10

Dr. Mona

And you know, the question that I often get asked from breastfeeding moms and some of the misconception is can breastfeeding and sleep training coexist? There’s a misconception, number one, that you can’t sleep train a breastfed baby. And we’re going to talk about terminology and what that means. And there’s also a misconception that if you do sleep, train a breastfed baby, that the bond will be removed or, you know, reduce that a breastfed baby who is, sleep trained to not have that same bond with their mom, which is not true at all.

 

00;03;13;10 – 00;03;21;13

Dr. Mona

And so, yeah, we want to, you know, talk about these myths and also just talk about sleep in general. So if you can just go ahead and talk about if you’ve heard that myth as well.

 

00;03;21;14 – 00;03;49;13

Lola Sanchez Liste

Yes, I completely agree. So for sure breastfeeding and sleep training are two hot topics in the parenting world, and they create a lot of debate and passionate discussions and sadly, sometimes fights and judgment. Right. But these are for sure important relevant in both babies development, in parents health and the family dynamic. So the easy answer to your initial question is, yes, totally.

 

00;03;49;13 – 00;04;16;06

Lola Sanchez Liste

Yes. Sleep training and breastfeeding can coexist. So the first thing that I would like to talk about briefly is what is that parents are doing when they’re sleep training and basically sleep training. That is kind of a term that I don’t usually feel comfortable with, because I don’t know why we call it this way, but means, you know, it basically means changing sleep habits, changing a sleep association.

 

00;04;16;09 – 00;04;48;11

Lola Sanchez Liste

This is a time in the babies or in older children, life when a parent wants to help, the child or the baby improve the quality of sleep, they start changing certain sleep routines and allowing the baby to fall asleep in a different, way. For many babies, the sleep association is nurturing to sleep for. Other babies can be bottle feeding to sleep or rocking to sleep, or falling asleep in the stroller, or or only falling asleep during a car ride, or falling asleep with a parent inside the crib.

 

00;04;48;11 – 00;05;27;02

Lola Sanchez Liste

But there are so many different sleep associations here. You name it. I hear them all. And now for a breast feeding mother. Who is ready to allow the baby to fall asleep without noticing? That does not mean that she has to stop breastfeeding. Correct? And this is a very important concept because, again, is a matter of how is the baby going to go from awake to asleep and it’s okay in a mother’s journey, an appearance journey in the baby’s journey, if at some point the family is ready to take a step forward and allow the baby to fall asleep in a different way and change that habit, but it does not mean that breastfeeding

 

00;05;27;02 – 00;05;56;10

Lola Sanchez Liste

has to stop at all. On the contrary, this is about offering the baby to sleep when they are tired and to be slept when they’re hungry. But of course, the parents will still need to feed the baby no matter if it’s breastfeeding or bottle feeding when the baby is hungry. I guess that the reason why the concept of, sleep training becomes more relevant at some point is because we are all dependent, signals to fall asleep.

 

00;05;56;23 – 00;06;21;03

Lola Sanchez Liste

Not only there is a time of the day or in the evening when we feel sleepy. And this, this, we are responding to our kitten rhythm and we need to rest. But also our brains associate certain habits to falling asleep, in the adult life or even in an older children’s life. He could be brushing teeth with our pajamas, get him to bed, get our favorite pillow, have a blanket, turn off the light.

 

00;06;21;05 – 00;06;47;11

Lola Sanchez Liste

If we fall asleep in certain conditions. And we will captured in the night without that pillow, without a blanket with our partner. It’s not there. And suddenly we wake up and we are alone, in the bed. And we feel confused about this. So it’s the middle of the night. We need to fall back asleep, but we first need to find, you know, an explanation for what happens with the conditions or in the way we fell asleep at the beginning of the night.

 

00;06;47;13 – 00;07;07;29

Lola Sanchez Liste

But then if we want to fall back asleep, we need to get comfortable again, right? We want to pick up our pillow within the floor, put the blanket on again, turn off the light. And this is the same for a baby who’s either nursing to sleep or bottle feeding to sleep, or been rocked to sleep. Right. It’s the last thing that that baby remembers is nursing to sleep.

 

00;07;07;29 – 00;07;28;19

Lola Sanchez Liste

And the only way that he can relax and go from awake to asleep is nursing again. There may be a time when parents are ready to take this step forward and say, okay, let’s change this and let’s allow the baby to develop a different habits. And this is completely normal and even healthy and awesome.

 

00;07;28;21 – 00;07;48;17

Dr. Mona

And this is so great. I mean, again, I’m just so happy about how you explain that sleep associations. Right? Because I think when people think sleep training, they think it has to be a certain way in terms of, you know, eliminating everything, but it really just helps a baby understand that I can sleep without any of that external things to put me down in that moment.

 

00;07;48;17 – 00;08;09;28

Dr. Mona

It doesn’t mean those things can’t happen like we talk about, you know, I think there’s a misconception in general with sleep training that, sleep train baby doesn’t get the cuddles and the affection. I mean, obviously you’re giving all of that to your baby. You’re just teaching and showing your baby that, hey, when it’s time to go to bed, you can get fed, but you’re going to bed because you’re in your bassinet or crib, and we are going to bed because it’s time for bed.

 

00;08;09;28 – 00;08;28;22

Dr. Mona

Not that you needed something to be done for you to go down. So because that’s kind of what we’re teaching babies. And I love how you explained it. So when a mom is thinking about breastfeeding or is breastfeeding and thinking about sleep training, what are some things that she should consider making that decision? Dropping feeds, not dropping feeds, cold turkey, all of that.

 

00;08;28;22 – 00;08;32;09

Dr. Mona

Like what are we want to think about? Or yeah. How would you guide that mom in deciding?

 

00;08;32;09 – 00;08;52;28

Lola Sanchez Liste

Yes. Very important. So, for this question, I would like to separate the information in two different topics. And the first one that I would like to address is sleep development. Because what we want to make sure when we consider both sleep training and night winning, for example, is that we want to respect the baby’s natural development.

 

00;08;53;04 – 00;09;13;11

Lola Sanchez Liste

And this is also a big myth. And you were also talking about this because we think also that both sleep training and night winning is a natural. Sometimes. And this is on the contrary, what we want to do is, you know, to allow a baby to be who he is and to respect the natural development of that baby.

 

00;09;14;13 – 00;09;39;28

Lola Sanchez Liste

So in terms of sleep development and sleep biology, the first big thing or big milestone that happens, in the body is that nighttime sleep starts becoming organized around 6 to 8 weeks old. This is a time, when the baby starts producing its own melatonin. And before this time, the baby gets the melatonin through mother’s milk.

 

00;09;39;28 – 00;10;01;26

Lola Sanchez Liste

And that’s why during the first weeks of life, we see a lot of day night confusion. There are no real sleep patterns. The baby eats and sleep all through day and night without really, you know, a set schedule. However, around two months old, three months old is when we see that my time sleep starts becoming organized. Why this is, so important?

 

00;10;02;02 – 00;10;25;25

Lola Sanchez Liste

Because suddenly parents report that, especially if you’re a lucky parent, that the baby is having a longer stretch of consolidated hours at night. A baby was feeding, you know, every two hours. Every three hours. Suddenly, parents put the baby down for bedtime, and the baby suddenly gets five hours, six hours, seven hours, 12 hours. For lucky parents.

 

00;10;25;25 – 00;10;50;02

Lola Sanchez Liste

Yes, that can happen naturally for many babies. Parents say I didn’t do anything special. And then yet my baby was sleeping for 12 hours at night when he was to unfold. And this is completely possible and natural. And this is the theory and rhythm. Taking the first maturation step and organizing nighttime sleep. And again, this happens because the baby is producing its own melatonin.

 

00;10;51;06 – 00;11;08;06

Lola Sanchez Liste

The second thing that happens around this usually is the time when babies start the social smile. And this is the cutest thing. You know, when he looks at the baby and and you even know like the did he just smile at me? And he’s like, yeah. So she’s smiling at you is not a reflex. Is really your baby smiling at all?

 

00;11;08;06 – 00;11;31;05

Lola Sanchez Liste

Yes. And this is such an important milestone too, because we see on one side the babies, growing healthy. Right. Development. But also we see that the baby starts association associating information. So now it’s a good time. And this is usually the suggested time when we tell parents, okay, why don’t we start to work on the sleep routine.

 

00;11;31;10 – 00;11;59;21

Lola Sanchez Liste

So the baby really associate certain steps, certain routines with falling asleep, even if you’re still nursing to sleep, rocking to sleep, feeding to sleep, at least to create that, you know, lovely, warm routine that will take baby to sleep. This is also a time when nighttime sleep starts becoming organized. Some pediatrician will suggest to parents at this, two month appointment to start sleep training.

 

00;11;59;23 – 00;12;22;15

Lola Sanchez Liste

Is this a good moment to do it or not? That’s the families and the pediatrician decision. But some families will feel comfortable, start changing their sleep habits. And remember, this is only about how your baby falls asleep. Nothing else. So some politicians will tell. Why don’t you experiment by watching your baby awake in the crib, or drowsy but awake?

 

00;12;22;18 – 00;12;44;28

Lola Sanchez Liste

And another thing that I, also mentioned to parents at this time is that it’s very important to respect an age appropriate schedule because an overtired baby or an undertaker, a baby for that matter, will struggle falling asleep. So it’s not only about changing the habits, it’s also about, supporting a good schedule that respect the baby natural rhythm.

 

00;12;45;00 – 00;13;05;19

Lola Sanchez Liste

So again, for many babies, around two months, they will naturally drop some of some of all the night feedings. But for many babies, this is still a need that state the need to be fed during the night. They still need to grow and again they will be hungry during the night. Now the second I’m still talking about sleep development.

 

00;13;05;19 – 00;13;30;18

Lola Sanchez Liste

The second step that happens around four months is that daytime sleep become, more organized. And you know, we see that naps start coming together. You know, there’s a more regular schedule certain you know, sometimes naps start getting longer. But also sleep patterns maturing in a way that takeoff develop into different stages, more similar to adult patterns.

 

00;13;30;21 – 00;13;56;05

Lola Sanchez Liste

And we also call this a formal sleep regression. And this is usually a time when parents start considering sleep training in a more confident way because, you know, maybe that baby that a two month was having these longer stretches of hours, and skipping night feeding suddenly is waking every hour when sleep cycles, and then they need to connect with the other cycle and they’re like, how come you know, my baby?

 

00;13;56;05 – 00;14;21;06

Lola Sanchez Liste

That was beautiful. Sleeping at eight weeks old now is suddenly waking up all through the night. So again, this is just a brief introduction to sleep development. When can we expect no longer stretches of hours? And then when, you know, daytime sleep starts becoming organized? Now, if we consider night weaning in this process, we always want to check with the pediatrician.

 

00;14;21;09 – 00;14;44;26

Lola Sanchez Liste

Yeah. You know, we want to see a healthy baby that is growing, that every time we take them to them. Regular checkups, you know, that baby’s gaining healthy weight. They’re no feeding issues. And the pediatricians, you know, it’s also given the green light for night weaning. And again, some babies are ready and some are not. Now the second part that I want to talk about is what are the signs that the parents need to look for?

 

00;14;44;26 – 00;15;06;22

Lola Sanchez Liste

Or maybe pay attention if they are considering night winning. For example, if they be active during night sitting, you know when mom wakes up because the baby’s waking up and she notices the baby, is the baby really sucking and empty in the breast? Is the active that that’s getting hungry? Is the baby sleeping maybe in there during the feedings, right?

 

00;15;06;22 – 00;15;33;05

Lola Sanchez Liste

Like only second for a little bit and then falling asleep immediately more showing kind of, you know, more like a habit and then just using the breast to fall asleep. How frequent are these night feedings? Because if the baby is eating every three hours during the day, but then feeding every 30 minutes during the night, that is probably not a hunger sign, but more like, you know, again, a habit time that every baby wakes up and needs to be nursed to sleep.

 

00;15;33;27 – 00;15;52;06

Lola Sanchez Liste

And the other big thing is that, is to look if the baby’s hungry in the morning because sometimes babies again, especially if they are during the formal sleep regression and because they’re waking so frequently, they feed through the night and snacks through the night, that when they wake up in the morning, they are not really hungry.

 

00;15;52;09 – 00;16;07;18

Lola Sanchez Liste

So if by feeding during the night, the baby’s actually skipping the morning feeding, then we are not really helping the baby develop healthy patterns, because what we want to see is that the baby drops my feelings and sleep more during the day. So these are.

 

00;16;07;18 – 00;16;09;21

Dr. Mona

Sleep more during the night, right?

 

00;16;09;23 – 00;16;11;08

Lola Sanchez Liste

Yeah yeah.

 

00;16;11;11 – 00;16;11;29

Dr. Mona

Yeah yeah.

 

00;16;11;29 – 00;16;39;03

Lola Sanchez Liste

So so these are, you know, little signs that I always, suggest parents to pay attention to, to make sure that those night feedings are really efficient, are really necessary. And to make sure, again, that we are responding to the need to sleep during the night and not just the comfort, of nursing, but again, there’s nothing wrong with it is just that if they are ready to start changing certain habits, you want to pay attention to these things.

 

00;16;39;06 – 00;17;08;03

Lola Sanchez Liste

After a six month old, most babies or many of them will be ready to wean. During the night. Parents are ready to take this step. And this happens again because they’re CKD and rhythm gets stronger. Hormones. Related with hunger drop at night, consolidated sleep becomes super important in the baby’s life. And then again, if the parents are ready to take this step, it’s really a good time, you know, to work on night winning.

 

00;17;08;05 – 00;17;23;09

Dr. Mona

Now, this is so great. And I love. So there’s two comments. Well, there’s few comments. I love that you talked about the circadian rhythm around 6 to 8 weeks. You know, you might be the first sleep consultant or sleep coach that I’ve like seen resources or talked about that that puts it at that age. I have some people that say it’s later.

 

00;17;23;09 – 00;17;42;19

Dr. Mona

I actually completely agree with you that it’s 6 to 8 weeks. Some people say it’s four months. I have seen it in babies that some babies, not all babies. We have to remember this when we talk about sleep. It is unique, but some babies, we do see that sleep cycle change around 6 to 8 weeks and my own son slept nine hours stretches at two months because of a combination of things.

 

00;17;42;19 – 00;17;58;25

Dr. Mona

I think he has good sleep genes, but also maybe we’ll get into it. We practice a lot of pausing. Meaning I think that’s something we’ll get into, like in the middle of the night. Ever since he was born, it’s like we don’t jump right away. Anytime he makes a noise, which I think is so vital because even if you are breastfeeding bottle feeding, I don’t care.

 

00;17;58;28 – 00;18;19;23

Dr. Mona

Sometimes we mess up with their transitions through sleep cycles because they whimper, cry, make a sound, and they’re actually not hungry, but they’re actually just moving through sleep cycles. And when you start to do that more, in that newborn phase, you actually will find that they may stretch their sleep, not because they’re an amazing sleeper, but because we didn’t intervene as much.

 

00;18;19;23 – 00;18;30;01

Dr. Mona

They weren’t hungry and we created an association for them. So that’s like one tip that I know, I’m sure you talk about too. It’s so I think one of the biggest parenting tips I have is pausing. It’s.

 

00;18;30;03 – 00;18;30;28

Lola Sanchez Liste

Yes, completely.

 

00;18;30;28 – 00;18;48;10

Dr. Mona

And and then the other thing I love that you talked about is, okay, so like the signs that, you know, whether to wean or not. So my next question for you is just methods. But what if a family wanted to go cold turkey? They feel like, you know what, I don’t think my baby needs the nighttime feeds anymore.

 

00;18;48;10 – 00;19;01;05

Dr. Mona

Maybe one of them is ten minutes long. The other one is five minutes long. I want to eliminate feeds. So let’s talk about cold turkey, what you would recommend, and then more of a gradual I want to talk about more gradual, recommendations too.

 

00;19;01;05 – 00;19;32;18

Lola Sanchez Liste

Yes, completely. So and again this is a point where both sleep training and night winning. Becomes things that we work together. It’s kind of tight. And the reason for this is what I’ve talked to, earlier, and this is that we have sleep associations. Right. So again, the way we fall asleep at the beginning of the night, especially as the baby grows and its more aware of their surroundings, is the way we will need to connect sleep cycles during the night.

 

00;19;32;20 – 00;19;55;00

Lola Sanchez Liste

So if a family is ready to start night weaning and they are considering cold turkey, what I always recommend is start with how the baby falls asleep at the beginning of the night. What I’m trying to say is you cannot expect a baby who nurses to sleep and writes to the crib asleep to stop feeding during the night.

 

00;19;55;02 – 00;20;14;28

Lola Sanchez Liste

Are there parents or babies who happen to experiment and say, oh yes, I put my baby asleep in the cream and then, you know, they just sleep through the night. Maybe. But if we are talking about actively, you know, trying to our babies to, change, their escape habits, this is something that we always have to consider.

 

00;20;14;28 – 00;20;42;02

Lola Sanchez Liste

Let’s help the baby go from awake to asleep in a different way at the beginning of the night, and then let allow him to connect sleep cycles without noticing during the night. So if you’re going to start somewhere, start with the beginning of the night. What is that you can do at this point? Switch your sleep routine. If the final step of your sleep routine is nursing to sleep or rocking to sleep for that matter, put the feeding at the beginning of the night.

 

00;20;42;02 – 00;21;06;15

Lola Sanchez Liste

Create a sleep routine that is very consistent. You do each, you know, same step, each night, and then allow your baby to get to the crib completely away because that’s the first sleep association that you want to change. How your baby falls asleep at the beginning of the night. The second thing to consider again, I mentioned this before the time for sleep.

 

00;21;06;15 – 00;21;28;07

Lola Sanchez Liste

We want to allow the baby to have the opportunity to sleep when he’s really tired and not over tired. So it’s super important to follow and natural rhythm. We need to remember that babies are naturally early persons. They release melatonin early in the evening. They need a lot more hours than adults, do in terms of sleep.

 

00;21;28;13 – 00;21;46;26

Lola Sanchez Liste

So a baby will feel more comfortable falling asleep early in the evening. That late at night. Like, you know, newborn babies can fall asleep at 1 a.m., 12 at night or 11:00 pm. But then as the baby grows and again the sleep develops, we want to make sure to put the baby, early for bedtime.

 

00;21;46;29 – 00;22;04;29

Dr. Mona

This episode is brought to you by the New Mom Survival Guide, an online digital course and community brought to you by me, Doctor Mona Ameen. Join me as I guide you through your first year of motherhood. This course is not just a how to for your baby, but a how do you get through the ups and downs of motherhood.

 

00;22;05;02 – 00;22;24;26

Dr. Mona

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00;22;24;28 – 00;22;43;14

Lola Sanchez Liste

And the other thing to consider is make sure the baby’s eating well during the day. If we are expecting the baby tonight, when we need to make sure that at least the baby’s eating around three hour each, every three hours during the day. So we because we want the baby to get most of the calories during the day.

 

00;22;43;14 – 00;23;16;07

Lola Sanchez Liste

So these are three again important things that, I always remind parents to pay attention to. Now, if parents want to, you know, go cold turkey again, there’s certain biological things that I always like to mention in terms of, needing those, night feedings. We know that babies who start sleeping better, they can for sure go, and stay asleep for a longer stretch of hours at the beginning of the night.

 

00;23;16;07 – 00;23;41;17

Lola Sanchez Liste

This is the time of the night when babies mostly go into deep sleep, that it’s super important for their development. So the first suggestion will be don’t feed the baby until after midnight. This is the first step. Usually babies who are already organized in night and sleep, and usually those who are older than four months. They only get two feedings tonight if they are still eating them up.

 

00;23;41;17 – 00;24;04;09

Lola Sanchez Liste

Mike. The first one happens after midnight, and there’s a second feeding that happens 3 or 4 hours after that first one, the same rhythm that they get during the day. So again, if this is a baby, these are parents that are considering night winning, and cold turkey. And the baby has been snacking through the night. You know, the parents tell me I don’t know my babies.

 

00;24;04;09 – 00;24;26;21

Lola Sanchez Liste

We can have ten times a night and I’m feeding the baby every single time he wakes up. Okay, so maybe you can either go cold turkey, but then you can consider if you’re not ready for that. Yeah. Step get at least let’s give the opportunity to the baby to only feed two times. That is age appropriate for, for four months, for example.

 

00;24;26;21 – 00;24;51;06

Lola Sanchez Liste

Right. So one feeding after midnight and the second feeding 3 to 4 hours after that second feeding. So that’s, you know, one, one consideration that parents may have, the other consideration that they may have is to drop one seated at a time. So let’s say that the baby’s already feeding two times during the night. They can actually go to one, feed in the night.

 

00;24;51;06 – 00;25;16;15

Lola Sanchez Liste

And again, I suggest don’t feed the baby till after midnight and only keep that one feeding during the night, decreasing the feeding time. It’s also another, consideration that the parents my my think about and in terms of cold turkey. So first mom needs to be completely confident about this because she needs to be consistent.

 

00;25;16;16 – 00;25;34;29

Lola Sanchez Liste

If parents again want to take this step and they want to, you know, not feeding the baby any more the night and the baby’s ready, we want to be consistent. If one night mom says, okay, I’m not going to be the baby tonight, but then the next night mom says, oh, okay, whatever. You know, I’ll we’ll go for it.

 

00;25;35;02 – 00;25;39;12

Lola Sanchez Liste

That’s super frustrating for both parents. And the baby. The baby.

 

00;25;39;15 – 00;25;41;12

Dr. Mona

Is breast.

 

00;25;41;14 – 00;26;08;14

Lola Sanchez Liste

And we’ll go there for sure. But again, consistent being consistent is super important. And let’s talk about mommy’s breast. This is a transition. This is a transition for both the baby, for the mother’s body. So of course her body will need to adjust and the body will be used to producing a certain amount of milk during the night, and suddenly the baby’s eating less, and the mom is night winning.

 

00;26;08;18 – 00;26;32;28

Lola Sanchez Liste

So we want to make sure to take care of man’s body. So if parents are going cold turkey, one of the things that, mom should be paying attention to is, is she, comfortable during the night or, they’re breast going and, super rep maybe. Or, if she’s having any club that or are their breath engorged because, you know, she’s having, so much meal during the night.

 

00;26;33;03 – 00;26;59;06

Lola Sanchez Liste

For sure. The body will adjust after 2 or 3 nights in the night winning process. The body will adjust in the process. Mom can manually express milk. Yes. To feel a little bit more comfortable, I personally would not suggest a full, breast pump session because if she has a full breast pump session, we’re still telling man’s body to keep producing milk.

 

00;26;59;06 – 00;27;25;16

Lola Sanchez Liste

And that time of the night. So that is something that the mom, you know, should consider, right. If she’s really want to, wean the baby, the body will adjust and we should stop telling the body to produce milk, you know, at certain time of the night. So basically, again, if she’s feeling too uncomfortable, she can manually express, a little bit or even do a small pumping session if that’s too uncomfortable.

 

00;27;25;19 – 00;27;40;01

Lola Sanchez Liste

And she will see that after 2 to 3 nights, she will feel more comfortable, and the body will naturally see that the baby will need a very important, efficient feeding early in the morning.

 

00;27;40;03 – 00;27;58;28

Dr. Mona

So baby. Really? Yeah. And I really want to remind moms like that is exactly what I recommend too. I mean, you will still feed your baby. How you want to feed them during the day. You can still take them to breast pump, but yet you’re right that you want to feed to comfort. If you’re going to wean cold turkey, you need to get up and feed to pump to comfort because you don’t want to get engorged.

 

00;27;58;28 – 00;28;14;24

Dr. Mona

I agree with that because engorgement can lead to mastitis, and you got to make sure you empty your breast enough to comfort with the pump if you’re going to go cold turkey. Because I don’t want a mom to end up with engorgement. Like you said, another tip that I have is just so you are sleep training cold turkey and you put your baby down 7 to 7.

 

00;28;14;28 – 00;28;37;26

Dr. Mona

Sometimes I recommend, just so your baby went down at seven. Okay, you’re doing a full cold turkey sleep train. You can also pump. Make sure you pump before going to bed so that you have one final pump before going to bed so that your supply doesn’t tank. And then you in the middle of the night, the whole 12 hours that you’re doing sleep training, whatever method you choose, if you’re not doing any sleep at all, then you wake up to your engorgement, to your pain.

 

00;28;37;26 – 00;29;01;07

Dr. Mona

You know, if you feel like that discomfort so that you don’t become engorged. I agree with you completely. It’s possible, but you will need to do the pump to comfort. And I love that you specified not to do the full 20 minutes if you are trying to eliminate feeds altogether overnight, because if you do the full 20 minutes or 30, whatever, you’re going to tell your body that, oh, we still need this overnight and it will cause the supply never to change.

 

00;29;01;07 – 00;29;04;02

Dr. Mona

And you’re going to be doing this forever. I love the way you describe that.

 

00;29;04;05 – 00;29;26;09

Lola Sanchez Liste

Totally. And then there are certain, you know, specific situations. For example, this is particularly important for mama’s twins or a map of multiples, because one thing you know is a mom that is going to cold turkey with only one baby. Another thing is an explicit breastfeeding mom who has twins, so she’s not only producing for one baby, she’s producing for two babies.

 

00;29;26;09 – 00;29;47;18

Lola Sanchez Liste

So, to those, ma’am, I especially tell them go slow. You know you will get to the night winning process, but it’s important for your own body, to give the body time to adjust. So, for example, for a month of twins, sometimes if the baby is young, if the babies are young, I recommend, you know, going to that the strategy that I mentioned at the beginning.

 

00;29;47;18 – 00;30;07;28

Lola Sanchez Liste

Right. So why don’t you first let’s, you know, drop this matching. So let’s move to only two feeding tonight. One after midnight, one for your to four hours after. Then we move to one feeding a night, and then you win completely. And that process will happen. And the body will adjust a lot better without putting them at risk of mastitis.

 

00;30;07;28 – 00;30;31;00

Lola Sanchez Liste

For example. So again, yeah. So for mom of multiples, especially if they’re exclusively feeding, this is something to consider. Then. Also, it’s important to consider, young babies, right? To always say if the babies are younger than four months, we want to make sure to have them video attrition green light, to do it. Because again, we want to make sure that the babies grow in healthy.

 

00;30;31;03 – 00;30;55;02

Lola Sanchez Liste

And it’s always, you know, in terms of them having the right advice at that specific moment, you know, it doesn’t hurt to have, you know, a lactation consultant, even a short call, a short consultation to get all the final tips, before getting into their both their sleep plan and weaning plan. Right. For the first few nights that are the ones that, make parents more anxious.

 

00;30;55;05 – 00;31;13;07

Dr. Mona

This is so great. I’m loving this conversation because I’m, like, literally sitting here nodding along. I’m like, yes, yes. Everything you say is so right on. And I’m just so glad that we could talk about this. You talked about one method. I have two more questions. There was one method you talked about, where we are weaning, gradually the amount of feeding.

 

00;31;13;07 – 00;31;18;23

Dr. Mona

So you were mentioning, like, focusing on a feeding and going down on the amount of time that you’re breastfeeding. Is that what that means?

 

00;31;18;28 – 00;31;33;06

Lola Sanchez Liste

Yes, exactly. And there’s again, if I mean today specifically we’re talking about breast feeding. But this could also apply to a baby who’s bottle feeding. Right. If we want to do that night weaning we to put less milk in the bottle for example.

 

00;31;33;06 – 00;31;33;18

Dr. Mona

Right.

 

00;31;33;20 – 00;32;02;21

Lola Sanchez Liste

But for a breastfeeding mom, one option is to feed for a less amount of time. And what I always tell mothers who want to move slowly in this process again, is be consistent because it can move slowly, can be frustrating. Yeah, right. Because we’re there in the middle of the night and you’re really tired and you really want your baby to drop that night feeding, and then you suddenly put the baby in the breast and I, you know, I’m looking at the clock and to say, okay, so it’s one less minute tonight and one less minute tonight.

 

00;32;02;21 – 00;32;25;29

Lola Sanchez Liste

So it’s like a mental right. Preparation for that moment to again, if mothers feel comfortable going slowly in this process, it’s awesome. And they also need to understand that they need to be consistent and they will get to the goal. But again, it’s a transition process. So yes, one option they can consider is to breastfeed for less time.

 

00;32;26;18 – 00;32;32;09

Lola Sanchez Liste

To nurse for less time, in each feeding session during the night.

 

00;32;32;12 – 00;32;48;03

Dr. Mona

And then my last question would be, so for a mom or parent who’s trying to figure out they’re removing snacking, right. And now, like for the example that you were mentioning that we’re going to do that one, you know, the first feeding after midnight. So how would you describe, like when that baby does wake up in those times that they were used to?

 

00;32;48;06 – 00;32;53;18

Dr. Mona

What are some strategies that they can do for those snacking moments to get them back down without that snacking.

 

00;32;53;18 – 00;33;13;23

Lola Sanchez Liste

If that makes? Yeah, super important and is where most parents get frustrated, answer completely. So again, I would like to go back to the beginning of the night, because what we can expect from that baby is that he or she will need to fall back asleep in the same way that she or he did at the beginning of the night.

 

00;33;13;26 – 00;33;38;15

Lola Sanchez Liste

So this again brings us back to sleep training, alternatives. Again, when we are talking about sleep training, we can consider different options. Always remember to put again, as I said before, the feeding at the beginning of your sleep routine. Then you create your sleep routine. I always suggest to create that sleep routine. Simple, short. It doesn’t have to be a long ceremony.

 

00;33;38;15 – 00;34;00;04

Lola Sanchez Liste

It doesn’t have to be super stimulating for your baby. It’s really, you know, about those calm, very regular steps that take your, baby to the crib. Now, this is the moment when you need to decide your strategy. What are you going to do when you put your baby awake in the crib? How do you want to support that baby?

 

00;34;00;07 – 00;34;15;28

Lola Sanchez Liste

Well, the baby falls asleep. Do you want to stay next to your baby? Do you want to leave the room? Do you want to touch your baby during the process? And these are different options, but whatever you choose is what you’re going to do with your baby when she wakes up during the night and you’re not feeding him.

 

00;34;16;00 – 00;34;35;29

Lola Sanchez Liste

For example, let’s say that that family puts the baby down in the crib and of course, the baby does not know how to fall asleep because before taking that step, the baby was used to nurse to sleep. So the mom and dad are ready. They’re putting the baby awake in the crib after the, you know, loving routine, the baby’s awaken.

 

00;34;35;29 – 00;34;58;04

Lola Sanchez Liste

The great parent can decide. And I’m talking about older babies. We can go back to to newborns if you want. In in a little bit. But, one option is, let’s say next to the baby, you can set a chair next to the crib. You can use your voice, you can you can use a phrase, I’m here. It’s time to sleep.

 

00;34;58;22 – 00;35;19;25

Lola Sanchez Liste

You can pat your baby in the back or in whatever position here. Remember, we always want to put babies on their back to sleep for safety reasons. So you can pat your baby, you can shush. You can talk. Talk. You will stay next to your baby until your baby falls asleep. If your baby wakes up for snacking during the night.

 

00;35;19;25 – 00;35;37;25

Lola Sanchez Liste

And remember that you will just be connecting sleep cycles for a while, trying to figure it out. How you go back to that chair, and then you sit in that chair and do exactly the same thing until your baby falls back asleep. If it’s midnight, let’s say that you’re tipping the feeding. If it’s midnight or later you go.

 

00;35;37;26 – 00;36;01;12

Lola Sanchez Liste

You don’t make the baby wake. You picked up the baby. You nourished the baby without allowing him to fall asleep at the breast. And when the baby is finished, then you put the baby back in the crib and you go back to the chair until the baby falls asleep again. Every time the baby wakes up, we want to do exactly the same as we did at the beginning of the night.

 

00;36;01;15 – 00;36;19;07

Dr. Mona

Yeah, the key here, the way you show that, it’s like also what method you’re choosing for your sleep training. Like meaning you’re helping them, right? So some families like I know we’ll do a modified thing, a Ferber for example, like they’ll do, I want to drop off my feeding like gradually drop off the morning feeding like we were talking about or the middle of the night like after midnight feeding.

 

00;36;19;10 – 00;36;39;29

Dr. Mona

But for those snacking and for those moments that they’re trying to drop, they do a Ferber where they do leave the room and come back and check. Yes, it’s so important. And remember, everyone, I have episodes that go over all of the different, methods of training. Episode 16 through 20, go through the different options you have so that you can tie it into what we’re talking about here.

 

00;36;40;04 – 00;36;56;06

Dr. Mona

Here we’re talking about more breastfeeding considerations and protecting supply and mastitis. And you know, not having that happen. But yes, like she was saying I just wanted to make sure you all know that in those moments that you’re not feeding baby, you’re going to help guide them. And that’s your philosophy on how you want to approach that. And I love.

 

00;36;56;07 – 00;36;58;09

Lola Sanchez Liste

That. Yes. Oh, this is so great.

 

00;36;58;09 – 00;37;10;14

Dr. Mona

I’m just so happy. I think we got through so much information on what would be your final message for everyone listening, you know, in terms of their breastfeeding journey, sleep training journey, if they’re doing both or either.

 

00;37;10;17 – 00;37;33;23

Lola Sanchez Liste

Yes, completely. One thing that I, always tell parents is whatever you want to do if we are respecting, you know, the baby’s natural development and then you will, it’s possible. So even if you’re talking about co-sleeping, parents that are, or co-sleeping, mother that is still breastfeeding a toddler to sleep and she wants to change, that is possible.

 

00;37;33;23 – 00;37;55;26

Lola Sanchez Liste

And I always remind this to parents. I know that it sounds impossible when you are there and you’re trying to change things and you’re overwhelmed about how to do it, but it’s completely possible. So, this is kind of a positive message that I want to to give everyone. It’s never too late. And, we need to understand the age of the baby or the child.

 

00;37;56;00 – 00;38;15;02

Lola Sanchez Liste

What are the options and what is the plan? You need to have a plan, but is totally possible to get where you want to be in your sleep journey and in your weaning process, or not weaning process. The second thing is, don’t act out of fear. And I think you addressed a little bit this at the beginning. You know, there’s so much information on so many philosophies.

 

00;38;15;04 – 00;38;36;07

Lola Sanchez Liste

You know, all those are respectable. But it’s important not acting out of fear, not doing things just because you’re going to harm your baby or your baby’s development is going to be super affected, or you’re not, loving your baby enough to know, you know, all those fear messages that sometimes we get as mothers when we are trying to move forward, but struggling so much.

 

00;38;36;09 – 00;38;46;29

Lola Sanchez Liste

And so again, it’s better, you know, to be, well informed and then consider our options and act from, from there, but not acting out of, you know, fear of harming our child.

 

00;38;47;02 – 00;38;48;06

Dr. Mona

Oh, I love that.

 

00;38;48;09 – 00;39;06;17

Lola Sanchez Liste

And then also always, you know, use your pediatrician, to talk about, you know, if it’s healthy tonight, weigh in if your baby’s ready for that. To make sure that your baby is growing healthy. So that’s always, you know, a good, reinforcement for parents to feel more confident when they are acting. Also, to talk with the lactation consultant.

 

00;39;06;17 – 00;39;26;16

Lola Sanchez Liste

You know, again, if you’re habitant and you want to have, you know, more, specific information or a better guidance, always a professional can guide you a little bit. So sometimes, you know, a short consultation will make it. This is team work. And for me, this is a very, very important message, because sometimes we feel that this is all our moms.

 

00;39;26;19 – 00;39;49;27

Lola Sanchez Liste

Yeah. And definitely not winning. Specially, even sleep training works best when dad is involved or when the other parent is involved. The one that is not always feeding or and it’s not the main, you know, caregiver during the day or during the night. So when the couple is in the same team and working together, that process goes a lot better.

 

00;39;50;11 – 00;40;15;22

Lola Sanchez Liste

Because we really need both parents, involved. And finally, mother mental health. It’s as important as, you know, to pay attention to the baby’s health in terms of development, age appropriate thing, to do and, feeding needs and sleeping needs. But it’s also super important to listen to the mother. And where is the mother at? And, you know, sometimes, you know, even, we have certain standards.

 

00;40;15;22 – 00;40;19;12

Lola Sanchez Liste

But then, you know, mom, it’s a different thing. And that is okay, too.

 

00;40;19;14 – 00;40;45;04

Dr. Mona

Oh, these are such great final points. And the last one is, like, the best take home. And, you know, I think one of my final things that I just want to drive home is from the lactation world, right. Like, I mean, I really want people to remember the physiology of how breast milk happens. And I think it’s an important final message from my hand because some babies are sleeping, we talk about their some babies are sleeping through the night at three, four months with no feedings on their own, meaning the parent did nothing right.

 

00;40;45;04 – 00;41;17;02

Dr. Mona

They meaning they didn’t do nothing, but they didn’t have to do any sleep training, quote unquote. And the mom is not waking up. And so there’s a misconception that every baby needs to wake up in the middle of the night to be fed. Now, the big take home here is that if your baby is waking up for any feeding and it’s a full on feed, you know, 15, 20 minutes and you are deciding to do sleep training, you have to think about the physiology, because I don’t want you to have your breast milk supply tank, and I don’t want you to create engorgement and mastitis because you assume that, oh, I’m just going to eliminate

 

00;41;17;02 – 00;41;38;11

Dr. Mona

this feed. I’m not going to wake up. So when we talk, you know, me and Lola talked about the pumping when you wake up, the pumping before you go to bed. If you notice that your supply starts to tank because you were doing all this or forgot to do this, talk to a lactation consultant. We usually would recommend, like pump power pumping to get your supply back up, because I don’t want people to feel like I wanted to sleep train.

 

00;41;38;14 – 00;42;00;14

Dr. Mona

And then I also want to breastfeed. But sleep training ruin my breastfeeding journey because it’s not like that. You can have both. Yes, you can have both. Whether you did a cold turkey, whether you do gradual and the take home that you mentioned. The mental health of moms are important. But also remember that you can create and have what you want, but it just takes consistency and it just comes up with a plan and you are going to have that plan.

 

00;42;00;14 – 00;42;08;22

Dr. Mona

It may look very different than your friend or than someone on social media. And Lola, I mean, this is just such a great conversation. You are going to come back on this podcast.

 

00;42;08;22 – 00;42;09;16

Lola Sanchez Liste

Oh yeah.

 

00;42;09;21 – 00;42;26;24

Dr. Mona

And I’m talking about sleep. I’m like, so obviously I’m Patricia and I talk about it all the time, but it’s just so nice to get this out there. Especially with the breastfeeding misconceptions. And tell me where people can find you, your Instagram website, all of that, because I definitely want to put that on my show notes and, you know, drive people there if they need help.

 

00;42;26;27 – 00;42;56;11

Lola Sanchez Liste

Yes, please. So can visit us at w w w dot Rock and blink.com. Also follow us on social media. We are on Instagram at Rockin Blinks and on Facebook. And again, I love to support parents and help them, you know, to, stay away of these fears and just, you know, act, well, well-informed and understand that we, as you said, we all have different sleep journeys and, and we can all, you know, get, the good sleep we need.

 

00;42;56;11 – 00;43;15;17

Lola Sanchez Liste

And that’s definitely my passion. And and to understand that children need sleep so much. And because our fears of, development that sometimes, you know, are so misinformed. Yes. We don’t remember how important it is to sleep, both for children and for parents. So, yes, please come visit us at Rockin Blink.

 

00;43;16;06 – 00;43;37;29

Dr. Mona

Absolutely. And I can attest to that. As a pediatrician interested obviously with a huge passion, development also lactation also for me. I mean, I do it all because I’m a pediatrician and I love what you said. Absolutely. We have to remember it’s a big picture and your baby will love you. I mean, I thought there’s so much misconception that if I’m not always there for my baby or that I do this, that I’m a terrible mother.

 

00;43;38;05 – 00;43;40;11

Lola Sanchez Liste

No no no, no, absolutely not.

 

00;43;40;12 – 00;43;46;13

Dr. Mona

We wouldn’t be talking about this stuff if it wasn’t for something that you wanted to do. And that was okay for baby.

 

00;43;46;16 – 00;43;49;01

Lola Sanchez Liste

I love you, Lola. Yeah. Thank you so.

 

00;43;49;01 – 00;44;00;25

Dr. Mona

Much for you. Follow Rock and links on Instagram and visit her website for more resources. If you want to consult, but I’m just such a fan of her and I just love how she explains things. So thank you again, Lola, for being here.

 

00;44;01;01 – 00;44;02;10

Lola Sanchez Liste

Thank you for having me.

 

00;44;02;11 – 00;44;18;03

Dr. Mona

Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review, share this episode with a friend, share it on your social media. Make sure to follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram and subscribe to my YouTube channel, PedsDocTalk TV. We’ll talk to you soon.