Do babies really need sleep-training or sleep-teaching or will they eventually learn on their own. I invited Dr. Sarah Mitchell the creator of The Helping Babies Sleep Method to discuss:

• Infant sleep and physiology
• When a should parent consider help in sleep-teaching
• Why sleep is beneficial

Quick simple 6 question sleep quiz with personalized responses: helpingbabiessleep.com/sleep-quiz
Website: helpingbabiessleep.com
Online sleep school: helpingbabiessleepschool.com
Instagram: @helpingbabiessleep

00;00;01;01 – 00;00;19;12

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

My philosophy is if it works for you, it works for me. So I think there’s so many different ways to raise your kiddo, and people have such different thresholds for working demands, and you know what’s happening in their homes. I think it really does depend. I don’t want to say that there’s no one way for everyone. Okay. That being said, I think that the time to work on sleep.

 

00;00;19;12 – 00;00;41;20

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

So I often get the question, when’s the best time to work on my baby sleep? Right. And there’s two windows. The first window is somewhere around six weeks to ten weeks. And it’s very gentle newborn sleep. It’s projecting out what their needs are, trying to meet those in anticipation rather than being like, retroactive and being like, oh my God, I think that’s asleep.

 

00;00;41;26 – 00;01;01;08

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

I don’t know, I think it’s a hunger signal. I’ll feed them and then they fall asleep, but just not really having any flow to your day. Gentle newborn sleep shaping is about predicting that that okay. And that’s very gentle. And it takes place over a number of weeks. And the idea is to help your little ones fall asleep in the place that they’re going to be spending the night, because that’s your long term goal.

 

00;01;01;10 – 00;01;19;12

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

And because somewhere around three months that transfer, when they’re asleep in your arms, you go to sit down can really start to wear off and things can get hot. Okay. Now, if you missed that window or you had a really fussy baby, you had to have them sleeping with you or on you or whatever. Don’t worry, because you can always work on sleep habits later.

 

00;01;19;14 – 00;01;29;17

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

At any time. I work with kids up to age 3 or 4 years of age because sleep is a learned habit. It’s never too late working on changing habits.

 

00;01;29;19 – 00;01;52;22

Dr. Mona

Hey everyone! Welcome back to the PedsDocTalk Podcast. This podcast continues to grow because of you and your reviews, so thank you for tuning in for leaving your reviews and ratings. Today’s guest is Doctor Sarah Mitchell. She is the creator of the Helping Babies Sleep Method, and we are talking about if sleep training is really necessary. Thank you so much for joining me today, Doctor Sarah.

 

00;01;52;25 – 00;01;59;08

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

I’m super excited to be here to share information and education about sleep with new parents. Thanks for having me.

 

00;01;59;10 – 00;02;04;11

Dr. Mona

Yes, I’m so glad that we could connect and tell me more about yourself and what you do.

 

00;02;04;13 – 00;02;27;25

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Yeah, so I’m actually a chiropractor by training, but I really found my passion empowering parents to teach their little ones to sleep and parent confidently day and night as a sleep and parenting consultant. So I work with babies from about four weeks up to four years of age helping parents with sleeping, feeding, and really mindfulness too in their parenting journey.

 

00;02;27;28 – 00;02;48;15

Dr. Mona

Oh, I love that last part too, because so much of that can impact how we approach parenting. And it’s the core. I mean, in order to make changes in everything that we do, whether it’s with sleep or feeding or behavior with our children, we have to be mindful in the moments. So I love connecting with people who share that sort of philosophy, because it can really help parents to kind of reframe those moments that are a little more stressful than others.

 

00;02;48;17 – 00;03;08;05

Dr. Mona

So the topic that we’re discussing today is about if sleep training is really quote unquote, necessary. And so I kind of wanted to open up by, you know, just you going into is it needed? Is it by choice? Can all children eventually learn to sleep through the night? What are your thoughts on sleep training in general and this conversation?

 

00;03;08;07 – 00;03;27;19

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Yeah, there are parents out there who may be wondering why we’re even having this conversation, because they feel like they have the best sleepers in the world, and they don’t have to do anything to change the way their little one is sleeping. That does exist. But then there’s other people who feel like, gosh, this is hard. I’m tired.

 

00;03;27;19 – 00;03;48;12

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

What can I do to make this better? And what’s the difference? There’s many variables that can impact how a parent interprets their baby’s sleep. One of them could be their threshold, the person’s threshold for fatigue. Because one person’s dream sleeper could be somebody else’s nightmare, depending on how much sleep that parent needs. So yes, it really does depend.

 

00;03;48;12 – 00;04;14;12

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Right. And then, you know, if there’s one thing I’d like people to take away from this podcast today, it would be this saying that the drive to sleep. It’s biological. We need it to live. We need sleep. But the way we sleep is actually a learned habit. And we don’t really think about that so much. We think it should be this beautiful, natural, instinctual thing, probably because of all of those newborn baby photos with babies sleeping in flowerpots and whatnot.

 

00;04;14;13 – 00;04;18;05

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

There’s an image there that it should be easy and natural, don’t you think?

 

00;04;18;11 – 00;04;37;29

Dr. Mona

Yeah, I agree, and I think, you know, the whole movement of sleep training in general, I think back a lot to our when we were children. And now if you ask any of our parents like, hey, I’m and be like, what are you talking about? We just let our children sleep. So I sort of, you know, kind of digging in a little more as to why we’ve created this sort of sleep training and why this exists now.

 

00;04;37;29 – 00;05;13;25

Dr. Mona

And I’ve always wondered, and I wonder if you agree, is there some component of parental stress that makes cause the children not to actually sleep, like there is a cycle of, you know, obviously intervening before a child needs it? You know, like what we talk about pausing and whatnot. And so I always see that maybe are we so stressed about sleep and that we have to have our baby sleep and this has to be going a certain way, then we inadvertently can accidentally cause sleep issues because of intervening too early or, you know, not creating an environment that is just looking at the physiology of sleep, you know, darkness, all of the things.

 

00;05;13;25 – 00;05;28;20

Dr. Mona

So that’s one thing that I wanted to kind of ask about is that, you know, looking at generations before us, it’s not that this is something that they had to do. You know, we just have created this sort of reality. And it’s fine because I think it’s education in this modern parenting age.

 

00;05;29;22 – 00;05;50;10

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

I think there’s a very, very small percentage of people that I see in practice that are incredibly anxious and have perfectionism tendencies, and I think that energy does get passed on to the little person sometimes, but I think that’s a really small portion of the people that I work with. Don’t forget that I’m biased, right? Because I usually work with people who are having a hard time and reaching out.

 

00;05;50;12 – 00;06;08;22

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

But there’s three other things I think that might influence, what you’re noticing between our parents generation and ours. One is the invention of monitors, because now we have so much more information about what happened in the night or what’s happening in the night, and we are more responsive back then. You know, they may not even have heard us cry at night.

 

00;06;08;22 – 00;06;28;28

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

You know. Yes. The second thing is the pressures on women to get back to work now, compared to what it was back in the day. Back in the day, there was a lot more stay at home parents, so there was less discussion about getting back to work and working moms. And then the third thing is, I think you had a greater village really around you.

 

00;06;28;28 – 00;06;49;09

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

I feel like now people, it’s a weird state. People are more physically isolated, but they’re more connected online. And I think that changes the perception of things, because I can go to parenting groups and, you know, see somebody going, oh yeah, yeah, you know, they’re sleeping through the night. It’s great. And then if I ask more questions and get in there, well, that person’s baby woke up like three times last night.

 

00;06;49;09 – 00;06;55;18

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

But she doesn’t mind that versus somebody else. And so when that is portrayed online, it looks different than in person. Do you know what I mean by that?

 

00;06;55;24 – 00;07;15;00

Dr. Mona

Yeah, absolutely. I can absolutely see that. And the monitor thing is one thing that I actually really agree with. Because especially the monitors that light up your life, whether there’s movement, you know, and I actually found that when I went back to basics very early because I was like, okay, this monitor is actually causing me to lose sleep even if my son is sleeping, like, just say it.

 

00;07;15;00 – 00;07;33;05

Dr. Mona

When he finally went through sleeping through the night, it’s truly like no wake ups at all. No feedings at all. Like no waking up. That really. Did you know I was still just stir? If he stirred, I would stir. So monitors for sure. And everything you say makes perfect sense. So you know, when approaching this, I guess. What is your philosophy here?

 

00;07;33;05 – 00;07;48;23

Dr. Mona

I mean, do you think? I mean, I have my own philosophies, but do you feel like babies should be taught to sleep? Or do you feel like it’s something that, you know, you just go with the flow? Or is it something that if a parent wants to learn the skills, then they can learn it? Like where do you feel like this should kind of be in line?

 

00;07;48;26 – 00;08;11;26

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Yeah, my philosophy is if it works for you, it works for me. So I think there’s so many different ways to raise your kiddo, and people have such different thresholds for working demands. And you know what’s happening in their homes. I think it really does depend. I don’t want to say that there’s one way for everyone, okay, that being said, I think that the time to work on sleep, so I often get the question is when’s the best time to work on my baby sleep.

 

00;08;11;28 – 00;08;32;02

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Right. And there’s two windows. The first window is somewhere around six weeks to ten weeks. And it’s very gentle newborn sleep shaping. It’s projecting out what their needs are trying to meet those in anticipation rather than being or like retroactive and being like, oh my God, I think that’s a sleeping sign. No, no, I think it’s a hunger sign.

 

00;08;32;02 – 00;08;58;02

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

I’ll, I’ll feed them and then they fall asleep and just not really having any flow to your day. Gentle newborn sleep shaping is about predicting needs and then meeting that okay. And that’s very gentle. And it takes place over a number of weeks. And the idea is to help your little one fall asleep in the place that they’re going to be spending the night, because that’s your long term goal, and because somewhere around three months that transfer, when they’re asleep in your arms, you could put them down, can really start to wear off, and things can get more difficult.

 

00;08;58;04 – 00;09;15;06

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Okay. Now, if you missed that window or you had a really fussy baby, you had to have them sleeping with you or on you or whatever. Don’t worry, because you can always work on sleep habits later at any time. I work with kids up to age 3 or 4 years of age because sleep is a learned habits and it’s never too late.

 

00;09;15;06 – 00;09;32;25

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

I’m working on changing habits, so any time after four months is when you can work on independent sleep skills. So in my story was, you know, I kept breastfeeding him back to sleep because I just wanted to be attached to me, does every need. And I thought, that’s what I should be doing, I thought, and then then it became the only way I knew how.

 

00;09;32;29 – 00;09;46;11

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Right? So he actually weighed 20 pounds by the time he was four months because he was a big baby starting out. But then I just kept feeding him, feeding him back to sleep for this little Michelin man. And not that there’s anything wrong with that, right. But I got to a point where I was like, I can’t sustain this.

 

00;09;46;11 – 00;10;05;27

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Like I’m really tired. I’m starting to feel kind of resentful of this. And so what else can I be doing here? And so that’s when we’re working on independent sleep skills. So the research shows that after 3 or 4 months kids can self-soothe and they do something repetitive, right? We have self-soothing skills as adults. We have bedtime routines as adults.

 

00;10;05;29 – 00;10;24;12

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

And our kids follow these paths, too. So, you know, you and I, we might find our favorite position that helps us relax into sleep. So a self-soothing skill for a little person might be, you know, rolling on to their side or positioning her body a certain way, or doing something small and repetitive, like sucking a thumb or a finger or rubbing an ear that can help them relax in sleep.

 

00;10;24;12 – 00;10;42;09

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Those are independent sleep skills, you know, that is just one piece of like helping kids sleep. Like in my method, there’s five understandings, right? One is really understanding sleep. So learn habit. Okay, I have taught you that you need my boob to be able to fall asleep. No problem. I can work on changing that. The second one is timing of sleep.

 

00;10;42;09 – 00;11;02;13

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

So putting kids down to early or too late can make it harder for them, right? The third one is being an intentional feeder. So if I’m wanting to work on sleep, I may have to look at my feeding patterns as well, so that I can stack calories in the daytime to be able to get those longer stretches of sleep in the night, but also be confident with them when they wake up two hours into sleep.

 

00;11;02;13 – 00;11;33;22

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

But it’s not hunger because they had so many feeds during the day. The fourth pillar is messaging and being consistent because when you understand it’s a learned habit, how do you learn? You learn with repetition and consistency. The same response to the same stimuli over and over again. Right. And then the fifth pillar is responding. And that’s the one thing that people think about when they think about sleep training, or as I prefer to call it, sleep teaching is how am I going to respond to the tears when my child expresses that frustration when I’ve taken away the known way of falling asleep?

 

00;11;33;25 – 00;11;34;05

Dr. Mona

Does that.

 

00;11;34;05 – 00;11;34;16

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Make sense?

 

00;11;34;16 – 00;11;51;29

Dr. Mona

Yes, all of this is great and I think, you know, there’s few comments that I have. The number one thing is before your pillars, the you’re happy, I’m happy philosophy, which is what I think people need to normalize. But I do believe that there is a pressure to sleep train. But then there’s also people who sleep train that get judged.

 

00;11;51;29 – 00;12;10;05

Dr. Mona

So on both spectrums, we are dealing with families who feel unsupported or that their choices don’t matter or their choices are being looked down upon. And really, I agree with you that if a family is happy, like using the example of you breastfeeding your baby to sleep. As a pediatrician, I love to also educate families on how that is so beautiful.

 

00;12;10;05 – 00;12;30;13

Dr. Mona

But how can we create a disassociation between I need to feed to sleep? It’s okay to feed your baby in the middle of the night, but removing that disassociation can be very helpful to stretch feedings and stretch sleep and, you know, see that sort of life back in terms of sleep. And it regardless of if someone is a working mom or not sleep is very useful.

 

00;12;30;13 – 00;12;49;15

Dr. Mona

Like, you know, you’re talking about like our generations before. Like it doesn’t matter to me if you’re going back to a workplace or not. Like stay at home moms who don’t sleep train who are miserable just because you’re not working in a workplace. Absolutely. If sleep training is something that you want to explore, I want a family to feel full, full, you know that you can do this.

 

00;12;49;15 – 00;13;07;01

Dr. Mona

So it’s okay. This is something that is okay for babies to do. And if it’s not your cup of tea, or maybe a certain method is not your cup of tea, then of course, and that’s fine too. But I think you, like you said, teaching about sleep, sleep, teaching and how to really set that foundation can be helpful, especially for the toddler years and beyond.

 

00;13;07;01 – 00;13;27;12

Dr. Mona

You know, does it have to happen in the infancy years? But it really can help a lot. You know, the independent sleep thing is something really useful for children. Like. It really helps in terms of, you know, having an infant who sleeps like a nine month old, ten month old, if you want to go even further than four months is very helpful as we approach those toddler years.

 

00;13;27;18 – 00;13;47;18

Dr. Mona

And then all the things that you mentioned about intentional feeding, consistency and responding, I love the consistency in responding, and that’s so much of what we do in any thing that we’re trying to teach our child. I mean, potty training I’m teaching. My son had a potty train right now. Consistency and how we respond in any parenting situation, including with tantrums, including when they whine.

 

00;13;47;18 – 00;14;04;23

Dr. Mona

I mean, this is all parenting 101. And then that feeding comment that you mentioned 100%, that intentional feeding is such a beautiful thing. And I manage a lot of families. And one of the things is when a breastfeeding mom, or maybe even a mom, but I see it more with breastfeeding mothers when they feel like they’re constantly feeding their baby.

 

00;14;04;23 – 00;14;21;12

Dr. Mona

And I have to say, I’m like, look, you’re going to stress yourself out. If this is something that you love, fine. We’re not going to fix it like you said. But I want you to remember that. Is there another reason? Has that baby just started to understand that this is what they need to go down? But how can we create that sort of healthy relationship that you love?

 

00;14;21;12 – 00;14;40;06

Dr. Mona

I love city moms love that connection, but you can still have the connection in other ways, you know, looking at their cues, but also just having a little cuddle or patting their back before they go down. So all of these are so important, and I know you want it to kind of also present some of the data or science behind sleep, you know, when do babies start to stretch and whatnot.

 

00;14;40;06 – 00;14;41;29

Dr. Mona

So I’d love to hear more about that too.

 

00;14;42;02 – 00;15;00;25

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Yeah. One of my favorite studies that I like to refer to is by Michael Gradisar from 2016, Journal of Pediatrics. It was a randomized controlled study. It’s the only one we have about sleep teaching that’s show that short term sleep training, which is three weeks or less, is safe and effective and has no long term effects on bonds.

 

00;15;00;25 – 00;15;22;01

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

And he also particularly looked at cortisol because one of the common criticisms, or it’s out there, is that, you know, your baby’s cortisol rises right, with crying and sleep training. And he basically found that there was no difference because your cortisol rises anyway through the night as yes. Right. And he proved that, you know, there was no change in that measure.

 

00;15;22;01 – 00;15;47;00

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

It wasn’t significant. So that that was really, really interesting that it’s a randomized controlled study. Sleep teaching is safe and effective. My other favorite sleep researcher is Doctor Jody Mendell, and she’s written a number of studies. And one of the ones I quote frequently is about bedtime intervention. And her study showed that the more a parent intervenes at bedtime, the more night waking you will have.

 

00;15;47;02 – 00;16;14;15

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Which is really interesting, right? Because I think most of us just want to help. We want to help so much. Yeah, but then that behavior is just kind of like a snowball effect. Like it just kind of keeps going over and over again. And then a recent study that came out that’s kind of fun, also by, Doctor Gradisar showed that and getting in it, the camera company actually does a number of, they have a sleep researcher on staff, and they’re doing so many interesting things with the data that they’re collecting from their camera with consent.

 

00;16;14;21 – 00;16;38;29

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

And they showed that the number of crib side visits in a night is the genetically significant to the frequency of sexual activity with parents. So the more you visit at night, the decrease frequency you’re having being intimate with your partner. And what’s interesting about that, it was not related to number of night waking. It’s related to crib side visits.

 

00;16;38;29 – 00;16;55;05

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

And it kind of makes sense now that the news about that study was that frequency didn’t necessarily translate to satisfaction with sexual intimacy. So anyway, I thought that was kind of fun. But going back to, you know, the sleep teaching and the training, that type of thing, it’s basically, you know, we think we should be helping. We think it should be this beautiful, natural thing that we can do.

 

00;16;55;05 – 00;17;05;04

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

But for some of us, it just doesn’t work out that way. And when you understand that sleep’s a learned habit, to me, it all kind of makes so much more sense, you know?

 

00;17;05;09 – 00;17;26;18

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And, going back to that cortisol study that you mentioned, I actually have for anyone who has not listened to episode 16 of my podcast, I had a PhD who studies childhood trauma come on and discuss the cortisol studies regarding sleep training and how it is not harmful to babies. So really want to clear that up if it is something that you end up wanting to do a sleep train or sleep teach.

 

00;17;26;25 – 00;17;46;15

Dr. Mona

I love that terminology that it is something that is perfectly safe for babies and fine for babies. And like you said, we all have natural cortisol increases and there’s nothing about sleep, teaching and training that is going to mess that up and mess up that amazing bond. And so in your feeling and opinion again, I know this is just a natural conversation about opinion.

 

00;17;46;23 – 00;18;02;13

Dr. Mona

Do you feel like there’s a certain sweet spot, like if, hey, if your child is still not independent sleeping then by this age? Or is there certain criteria that you feel like it might be beneficial to for a family to reach out? Or is it completely based on their desire? Yeah.

 

00;18;02;13 – 00;18;20;13

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Great question. So my favorite age to work with I have to one is in that like 6 or 7 week newborn stages. So gently work on amazing sleep habits. That’s what I did with my daughter Violet. After my son, my first one, I was like, oh my gosh, I’m not going down that sweet abyss again. So we’re gonna just really gently work on this here.

 

00;18;20;13 – 00;18;34;00

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

I’m going to be putting you down awake and helping you fall asleep in the crib. And that’s what we teach in the newborn method, in the class, in the book. And so that’s my favorite time. Assuming that you’re, you know, you’re breastfeeding is going well, your bottle feedings going well and you don’t have reflux or any kind of GI issues.

 

00;18;34;00 – 00;18;49;07

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

That’s my favorite time. My next favorite time is somewhere around 5 to 6 months of age, because you have probably been in that four month sleep regression that can start anywhere from like three and a half to four months. For some time, you may have thought that it was going to go away and it really hasn’t, and that 5 to 6 months.

 

00;18;49;07 – 00;19;04;27

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Why I like this is a lot of kids are starting to roll and rolling can help with sleeping, cause a lot of kids want to sleep on their stomach when they’re able to do so. That can be really helpful. You also has less variables at play, so as kids get older, they start to get more mobile. They start to get more teeth.

 

00;19;05;01 – 00;19;27;22

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Those are all little things that can cause little blips in your sleep. They’re called sleep regressions. And here’s another big takeaway whenever you hear sleep regression, I want you to think growth and distraction. So this sleep regression is happening because my child is growing physically by getting teeth or neurologically by learning motor leaps or understanding, and that’s distracting them from going to sleep.

 

00;19;27;22 – 00;19;41;01

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

It doesn’t mean that they’re not capable, but it is kind of a distraction. And so when if I’m working, you know, it never fails. And you work with a parent at eight months and they start teething at some point, and that’s okay. We can manage that, right? You can’t be waiting for the perfect time. That’s the other thing.

 

00;19;41;01 – 00;20;09;00

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

There is no absolutely perfect time where you’re not going to have some sort of little sleep regression happen. You just have to feel that the way we’re doing things is unsustainable. For whatever reason. It could be that you’re starting to feel really exhausted. You’re resentful. You want your partner to be involved more, you’re going back to work or you’re just feeling really tired because we definitely have research that shows, you know, that lack of sleep is definitely correlated with anxiety and postpartum depression, so everybody has to figure out what’s best for them.

 

00;20;09;03 – 00;20;28;09

Dr. Mona

Yeah, I love those responses. Also, the sweet spots that I also love to talk about and that I think that six week mark, I love that you bring that up because sometimes people think that, no, I don’t want to sleep train my six week old. You’re not sleep training. You are setting a foundation for healthy sleep. And a lot of the times, I don’t know if you had this experience with your daughter.

 

00;20;28;09 – 00;20;51;00

Dr. Mona

You said you did this. We did a lot of work with our son also at four weeks, six weeks about sleep foundation, right? Not training. And then we didn’t really need to do a major, major sleep training like sleep training or teaching when it actually finally needed to happen wasn’t really for us. Very much of an issue, because he got some of that basic foundations that can be taught at six weeks.

 

00;20;51;00 – 00;21;09;00

Dr. Mona

And maybe I’ll have you on again to talk about those things. But it is something that’s very doable. And, you know, for me, parents will come in and they’ll say, you know, all children roll eventually sleep. And I say, you’re right. All children will eventually sleep through the night. And we are going to be recording another episode about what that terminology means, like through the night.

 

00;21;09;00 – 00;21;30;09

Dr. Mona

I think that’s going to be a good one about misconceptions about sleep in general. But yes, that can happen. I do see that like a child who is not sleep trained or sleep taught in the infancy period. Yes, at 2 or 3 they can sleep. But I do see a lot of the alternative where we have three year olds, four year olds, older that have not learned that independent sleep.

 

00;21;30;09 – 00;21;48;14

Dr. Mona

So I think there’s a balance here. You know, I think from an empowering of parents perspective, I want parents to feel comfortable doing what they want to do. But I also want parents to know that sleep is really helpful for the whole family, and that it is something that you can work to in a method that works for you.

 

00;21;48;14 – 00;22;12;09

Dr. Mona

You know, it doesn’t have to be crime methods. It doesn’t have to be this method. It can be something to, like you said, teach them those independent sleep skills that can really help the child. I mean, I could go on and on about the medical reasons why I love sleep. I think it’s amazing. You already mentioned the postpartum anxiety depression 100%, and there’s no pressure in that first month, two months or any month in the first trimester to get a child slipping through the night.

 

00;22;12;09 – 00;22;29;25

Dr. Mona

That’s not the goal. But we know that lack of sleep affects our mental health. And then also for children, right? Children learn better when they’re sleeping. They can learn language better. They can actually want to play if they’re tired and their schedules are all off and they’re having tantrums because of the lack of sleep. And it’s just chaos.

 

00;22;29;25 – 00;22;47;05

Dr. Mona

There’s no words exactly like you said in your pillars. Like the consistency of the schedule matters. That can really help. And just teaching the rhythm of the day, hey, we’re going to go to sleep around this time. Here’s your evening routine. We’re going to have the daytime is going to look like this. And there’s going to be variations to that based on our life.

 

00;22;47;05 – 00;23;08;21

Dr. Mona

It’s not like you’re always going to stick on a routine, but I think all of those things just really make sense, and can really help just sort of reframe this when we’re thinking one side, hey, I feel pressure to sleep, train or teach. No, you’re not, but I want you to also think about what are your goals, you know, what is it that you really want out of this whole parenting journey with sleep and how it impacts your life?

 

00;23;08;21 – 00;23;11;21

Dr. Mona

And I want a normal? Is that for all families too, with you?

 

00;23;11;23 – 00;23;29;09

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Well, there’s two things you said that resonate me really big here. One is that you and I both just want people to know what’s possible for them. Yeah, right. And two, we know that good sleep really helps your child’s demeanor in the daytime. I don’t know how many clients that I work with who always describe their child’s temperament as happy on the intake form.

 

00;23;29;15 – 00;23;35;18

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

And then afterwards they say, I can’t believe how much less fussy they are during yes, now that they’re sleeping. Well,

 

00;23;35;20 – 00;24;07;12

Dr. Mona

And also some people are like, why are pediatricians so pushy about sleep teaching sleep training? And it’s not that we’re pushy, it’s that we also know that when the child reaches school age, the importance of sleep in the family. Now that being said, I have children who do not sleep through the night at infancy and toddlers, but the parents have created a routine for the child during the school age years where they go to bed at a certain time, limit screens before bedtime all the things for sleep hygiene so they can go to school and learn, absorb that information and they’re not zonked out all the time, right?

 

00;24;07;12 – 00;24;25;13

Dr. Mona

I do see obviously behavioral conditions later on and that is why like I look downstream, you know, I’m like, I want you to be empowered to learn these skills so that we can hopefully have the sleep issue not be the reason why your child is not succeeding in their own trajectory at school. You know why they’re so tired all the time.

 

00;24;25;13 – 00;24;40;27

Dr. Mona

Obviously, there’s other reasons, medical reasons for a child not being able to sleep, sleep apnea up. But that’s not the conversation here. But it’s so important to kind of look at everything as that big picture. And yes, I agree completely with you. This is so much more than, hey, sleep train or not, this is why are we doing this?

 

00;24;40;27 – 00;24;56;02

Dr. Mona

What is the benefits of it? You have options here. And then also, like you said, I can’t wait to direct people to your resources. But your pillars I’m sure just really go over that. Found it. How to create that and the importance of coming at it at a I’m going to do this. It makes sense for my family.

 

00;24;56;02 – 00;25;04;26

Dr. Mona

It makes sense for my baby from a developmental perspective. And although they could learn to sleep later, you have these tools that could help you now, which I think is really cool.

 

00;25;05;20 – 00;25;27;17

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Well, this is where the mindfulness comes into it, because I find parents who are really hesitant to make changes to the way their babies sleep. They’re remembering something from their own childhood, or they wanted to parent a certain way, or they remember a period where they were left crying as a child, but that they still remember. And they don’t want to impart that same experience to their child.

 

00;25;27;20 – 00;25;46;16

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

But we’re talking apples to oranges here because it’s completely different scenarios. But the feeling is there, right. So that’s the noticing part of mindfulness. Okay. So when I bring these suggestions up to use when I’m coaching someone, I’m always asking, so how do you feel about that? Like what does your gut say right now when I’m telling you this?

 

00;25;46;16 – 00;26;03;26

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Because I want to know what the root issue is deep down for this person so that they can parent confident and feel like they’re doing the very best thing for their family. Because don’t we all want to just rock parenting? Really, that’s the ultimate goal. But what’s holding you back from that? Because you’re talking to me because you’re tired, but at the same time, you don’t want to move forward.

 

00;26;03;26 – 00;26;07;04

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

So we’ve got some something going on here. So let’s talk about that.

 

00;26;07;07 – 00;26;24;01

Dr. Mona

Absolutely. Because like I said, we said at the beginning here, like if I’m going to teach any parent about anything in parenting, I use the trifecta. The trifecta is sleep behavior and eating. Okay. These are the three major things that cause stress in parents. And I, you know, picky eating, food refusal, not sleeping. And then also the tantrums.

 

00;26;24;01 – 00;26;41;08

Dr. Mona

Okay. And they’re all connected, right? Everything’s connected. So that’s why it causes a stress. Because you need to have a foundation. And then you also need to see what do we need to adjust the schedule. Are they not eating. Is that why they’re having meltdowns or the meltdowns for other reasons anyways. So I think it is something that is so important to kind of look at, in all of those aspects.

 

00;26;41;08 – 00;26;52;18

Dr. Mona

And yeah, I agree that it is something that parents should kind of look to as a possibility for them, that this could help so much, like it can be beneficial for the family if it’s something they want.

 

00;26;52;20 – 00;26;54;14

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

 

00;26;54;16 – 00;27;15;12

Dr. Mona

And I love this conversation. Is there anything else you’d want to add. I know I’m going to have you on again for another episode, because I do want to talk about some of the misconceptions that surround sleep and teaching and training. Terminology I know is different. But is there anything else you’d want to add as to like this whole understanding of do we need to sleep train or are they going to learn on their own?

 

00;27;15;14 – 00;27;35;19

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

I think it’s just really remembering. It’s a learned habit. It’s a learned habit. So if I take that away, for sure my child’s going to be frustrated. How do I offer comfort to those tears? But also thinking, like looking at timing? So on our website we have lots of freebies. We have a free timing sheet, the book, The Helping Babies Sleep Method, the Art and Science of Teaching Your Baby to Sleep is on Amazon, and I love the title.

 

00;27;35;19 – 00;27;56;13

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

So much because it really is both, right? Like we follow the science of understanding well, how much sleep kids need, how much food they need. But then the art part is like implementing strategies that you feel like fit for your child. So in the book, we teach two different ways to come at this depending on what feels most comfortable for you and then teach you like what does progress look like, because that’s the other part of being a new parent.

 

00;27;56;14 – 00;28;07;05

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

If this is your first time doing this, you have no idea what’s quote unquote normal. As far as like the tears, the amount of sleep like what this should look like. So we go over that in the book as well.

 

00;28;07;07 – 00;28;11;23

Dr. Mona

That’s wonderful. And also what is the link to your website and other resources.

 

00;28;11;25 – 00;28;23;10

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Yeah, it’s helping baby sleep.com and Instagram. And we just want you to know what’s possible. That’s it. You can raise your baby any way you want. We just want you to know what’s possible when it comes to feeding and sleep in this.

 

00;28;23;11 – 00;28;41;09

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And Sarah, I just again, I love your approach to the mindful aspect. I did want to wrap up and say why that’s so important. Like we said, like teaching all of these things about feeding sleep behavior. Get it? In order for us to make true changes, we need to know what is the why behind the reservations.

 

00;28;41;09 – 00;29;04;03

Dr. Mona

You know, why are you upset when your child gets a little fussy? Why are you upset about leaving your child, alone? You know, maybe if was family that was co-sleeping, just give me an example. Right. There’s all these reasons that could be different from client to client. I know you know that for me, it’s patient to patient, family to family, that it’s like if I just come at you and say, we’re going to teach your baby how to sleep, then no, no, I need to know.

 

00;29;04;03 – 00;29;22;03

Dr. Mona

Like you said, what is the root reasons of why you want to do it and why you’re feeling a little hesitant. And I think that’s the core of mindful parenting, which is all I’m about is that I need to understand your feelings and your frustrations and your insecurities, how you repair it, all this stuff. And honestly, that is how we make the biggest breakthroughs.

 

00;29;22;03 – 00;29;36;16

Dr. Mona

And if that could be my final message, that is it that that’s how we can do these things. And also just knowing what it is you want and not what people are telling you to do. And I think, Sarah, I resonate with you because I think you also are in that mission that you’re not pushing this down anyone’s throat.

 

00;29;36;16 – 00;29;55;21

Dr. Mona

It’s not like you must do my way or the highway, but it’s like, it sounds like you just really want to help people sleep. And you really want to help people understand that it is okay to teach your baby independent sleep skills. Whether you were breastfeeding, formula feeding, whatever it is, you’ll still have that bond. I think parents are so worried about losing that bond with their baby.

 

00;29;55;21 – 00;30;10;29

Dr. Mona

And I can tell you, as someone who’s trained their child when they were, he was two and a half months old. Yes, very early for various reasons. I have it on my podcast why we did it so early and why it worked, but it was so good for us, and I’ve never batted an eye as to losing any bond with him.

 

00;30;10;29 – 00;30;30;21

Dr. Mona

I mean, he loves to sleep. He loves everything, of course, like you said, which is another valid point that just because you sleep, teach or sleep train doesn’t mean that your child’s not going to go through sleep progressions where they are learning and developing and that is something I also want to normalize, because that is sometimes a misconception that I will go over in a future episode to.

 

00;30;31;24 – 00;30;37;07

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Remember, you can be loving, attached, and well-rested. Yes, but.

 

00;30;37;10 – 00;30;41;03

Dr. Mona

That is what I think you’re doing, especially with your younger daughter. Now, how old is she now?

 

00;30;41;06 – 00;30;42;05

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

She’s nine now.

 

00;30;42;05 – 00;30;56;13

Dr. Mona

Nine. Wow. Okay, great. And then also, that’s what we’re doing with our son. My husband was like, he was born and we had a traumatic delivery, and he was like, so when are we going to sleep train? I’m like, let’s get through all this stuff that happened. He had a medical diagnosis. I’m like, let’s see how he does with his seizures.

 

00;30;56;17 – 00;31;10;29

Dr. Mona

I’m like, let’s see how he does with his seizures. I’m not rushing into it. I’m ready when he’s ready and when I’m ready. And then we notice we’re like, he’s stretching feedings. He’s doing really well. He’s showing some signs of self settling on his own. Let’s go ahead and do a mini training. And it worked. And it’s such a nuance thing.

 

00;31;10;29 – 00;31;26;13

Dr. Mona

Parenting is about looking at your baby and looking at your goals and saying, okay, I feel it. I feel I want to do this. And resources like Doctor Sarah with her helping babies.com, her book, and also her Instagram account, I’m going to attach it. And again thank you so much for joining me today.

 

00;31;26;15 – 00;31;28;15

Dr. Sarah Mitchell

Thank you so much for having me. It was great.

 

00;31;28;15 – 00;31;45;23

Dr. Mona

And everyone listening. Thank you so much for joining us. If you love this episode, make sure to leave a review and call our doctor, Sarah and her information. Thank her for it and also follow her at Helping Babies Sleep and then her website as well, which I will link in our show notes. And once again, thank you for joining us.

 

00;31;45;25 – 00;32;02;04

Dr. Mona

Awesome. Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review. Share this episode with a friend. Share it on your social media. Make sure to follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram and subscribe to my YouTube channel. PedsDocTalk TV. We’ll talk to you soon.