We’re talking about independent sleep for older babies and kids, why it often gets harder with age, and how to approach it in a way that supports both your child and your family. This is not about shutting the door and ignoring your child. It’s about teaching a skill gradually, consistently, and in a way that fits your child’s temperament.

We discuss why earlier can be easier when it comes to removing sleep associations, but also why there is no hard deadline. Independent sleep is not about emotional distance. It is about helping your child fall asleep without needing a specific person, place, or condition that can make life harder later, especially during travel, sleepovers, camp, or when caregivers change.

In this episode, we cover:

✔️ Why sleep associations can become more challenging as kids grow
✔️ How language and mobility make older kids more persistent at bedtime
✔️ When to consider anxiety or separation issues before starting sleep changes
✔️ Why location matters, especially transitioning from your bed to theirs
✔️ The “camping out” method and how to gradually reduce your presence
✔️ Why consistency beats intensity every time
✔️ How middle of the night wake-ups often improve after bedtime changes

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00;00;00;00 – 00;00;20;12

Dr. Mona

Welcome back to the follow up. This is Doctor Mona, your online pediatrician and mom friend, where we revisit a favorite parenting conversation of the show in less time than it takes your child to ask for one more hug, one more story. A sip of water at bedtime. Sleep can bring up a lot of strong opinions. Independent sleep. Co-sleeping.

 

00;00;20;12 – 00;00;43;17

Dr. Mona

Parental support. There is no shortage of advice out there. In this episode, I’m joined by Doctor Shelby Harris, a licensed clinical psychologist and behavioral sleep medicine specialist, to talk about when independent sleep skills might need to be taught, especially for older children who still rely on a parent or anything else to fall asleep. Because it is true that there is no award for having the earliest independent sleeper.

 

00;00;43;19 – 00;01;03;10

Dr. Mona

But there may be a point where families want to begin supporting that skill. We talk about signs a child may need support building independent sleep skills, how to approach it without pressure or guilt, and where families can begin if sleep has become a struggle. If this conversation speaks to you, don’t forget to subscribe to the channel. Download the full episode linked in my caption.

 

00;01;03;16 – 00;01;20;03

Dr. Mona

Share it with a parent navigating bedtime challenges and tag at the PedsDocTalk podcast and at Sleep Doc Shelby so we can hear what bedtime looks like in your home. Let’s get into this incredible follow up.

 

00;01;20;06 – 00;01;38;26

Dr. Mona

I do encourage independent sleep teaching by one year. And also it’s for me, it’s because we can set a foundation. Doesn’t mean that your child won’t ever need you. It doesn’t mean that you’re closing the door and not approaching them. But it is a skill, if you’ll say, and it actually can benefit the entire family. So that is my perspective.

 

00;01;39;03 – 00;01;53;10

Dr. Mona

But I obviously want to hear from a science backed or clinician backed kind of guidance on what is that age that we have to set that foundation or say, hey guys, I know you love this. So great for everybody, but let’s start giving those skills to that child.

 

00;01;53;13 – 00;02;15;17

Dr. Shelby Harris

There’s really no set time to do it. Honestly. It just in my opinion, if your goal is to be able to have your child be able to sleep without needing to be there or some sort of association being there, the earlier you do, it doesn’t have to be three months, four months. I mean, there are some practices here in Manhattan that push two months, and I’m just like, that’s just too early in my opinion.

 

00;02;15;17 – 00;02;31;14

Dr. Shelby Harris

Like, you don’t have to do it, but it becomes harder the older your child gets. So if your child is now out of a crib, guess what’s going to start happening? Your child’s going to come running into your room. When they start having a lot more language, they’re going to be really manipulative and it can pull out people’s heartstrings.

 

00;02;31;19 – 00;02;48;01

Dr. Shelby Harris

So if your goal is to do it, and then we can talk about when it can become really an issue for a lot of families if your goal is to really do it. But I encourage people to do it before a year, or at least before they’re out of a crib, because it just to make it easier to be able to do that, you’re not gonna have to run them back constantly.

 

00;02;48;07 – 00;02;57;17

Dr. Shelby Harris

And you know that, mommy, I need this, I need that it just, you know, or whoever it becomes a lot more challenging. So earlier is better than later.

 

00;02;57;20 – 00;03;21;00

Dr. Mona

I think there is a misconception that a child under one cannot be taught these skills. And when I say skills is what you just mentioned, removing sleep associations. And it doesn’t have to be this wham bam, like Doctor Shelby said that at two months you remove everything and there’s no cuddling and there’s nothing. It can be gradual. It can be, you know, your child needed more rocking and now we’re going to phase out that rocking.

 

00;03;21;00 – 00;03;23;02

Dr. Mona

It doesn’t mean that your child will not need you.

 

00;03;23;04 – 00;03;43;11

Dr. Shelby Harris

There are different strategies to help your child sleep right and to sleep independently, but the way that I always look at it too, is like you have to think about your family and what’s going to happen, right? So if you’re someone who always has to be there for your child to fall asleep, or you have to have certain conditions all perfect, you know what happens the nights that you maybe have a babysitter?

 

00;03;43;11 – 00;03;59;24

Dr. Shelby Harris

What happens if they go to the grandparents house to sleep? Does it all fall apart because you are not there? Yeah. And if that starts to happen, then your child’s going to be sleep deprived. They’re going to be even more cranky the next day and the next. It just starts a the quality of problems that can happen because of that.

 

00;03;59;24 – 00;04;23;21

Dr. Shelby Harris

So it’s think about that like even from an early age. Right. Do are there certain things that are so rigid that it can make it harder for babysitters or going away or whatever that might be? And then the other thing that I start to think about is like, okay, maybe it wasn’t an issue, but or they just kind of families power through the grandparents visiting or going somewhere else and the parents not being there, and they’re like, oh, with once in a while it’s not a problem.

 

00;04;23;23 – 00;04;43;27

Dr. Shelby Harris

But then once you start to have a child who might have be like seven, eight might, if your family is okay with sleepovers, yeah, maybe your child is going to start having sleepovers at some point, you know? And is your child still needing you to be there to be able to go to sleep? And that’s when, you know, we really need to start doing something about it.

 

00;04;43;27 – 00;04;56;21

Dr. Shelby Harris

If your value is to have a sleepover or to have your kids repercussions or whatever it might be. Interestingly, the most busiest time that I have in my practice is right before sleepaway camp starts.

 

00;04;56;21 – 00;05;19;22

Dr. Mona

So I guess there isn’t an age who would say it really is like you said, the earlier you start to incorporate these skills, it becomes a matter of kind of the routine and the matter of fact. But when would you say the age is? I guess it kind of says, like when a family wants it to happen and also when you’re trying to consider these other things, right, like sleepovers, relative taking care of the child, all of these things are starting to take play.

 

00;05;19;24 – 00;05;46;20

Dr. Shelby Harris

Yeah, 100%. I don’t think there’s like one deadline because I do think, like we were saying, every kid’s different. And the other thing to consider too, is, is there any daytime anxiety that’s factored into some of this too, for some people. So if I suspect that there’s any separation anxiety, other anxiety, night time fears, things that are going on that I might intervene, I’m not necessarily a child psychologist myself because a lot of it’s parenting education, the stuff that I do.

 

00;05;46;26 – 00;06;11;20

Dr. Shelby Harris

But if I suspect there’s a lot of anxiety going on during the day, I might refer to an actual specialist in childhood anxiety, child anxiety, who can then give the child work with the child on what the anxiety is, because a lot of times it can also be things like separation anxiety. And if you notice that you can’t leave the room during the day or leave the house without your child being really anxious, that might be the first place to actually work before you even start working on the night time, for sure.

 

00;06;11;25 – 00;06;20;09

Dr. Mona

Oh, it’s all connected and absolutely oh, it’s such a comprehensive approach. And so what’s the youngest that we see? See boy camp like 1607.

 

00;06;20;12 – 00;06;28;13

Dr. Shelby Harris

Oh I mean I would say the average is between eight to okay. But it’s a lot of camp. But camps will start as early as six okay.

 

00;06;28;13 – 00;06;47;03

Dr. Mona

That’s what I thought. I know some have been like six seven. So let’s use an example of like you don’t have to get into a whole console, but let’s use an example of a world and, you know, maybe couple tips. A six year old who has gotten so used to needing a parent with them, and the family is now wanting to wean that off so that they can go to sleep away camp.

 

00;06;47;03 – 00;06;56;09

Dr. Mona

Or maybe the parents want to go away and grandma wants to, you know, settle the child down and they can’t. So what are some tips for that six year old who is not an independent sleeper?

 

00;06;56;11 – 00;07;16;02

Dr. Shelby Harris

So what I always try to do is first and foremost figure out, are they getting enough sleep? Is the bedtime right? Are they? Because if we have them, especially six year olds aren’t napping at this point. So if you have them sleep deprived already, that’s just going to make it even worse. You’ve got to like kind of overtired a child that you’re trying to put down, which just make it so much more difficult.

 

00;07;16;05 – 00;07;33;24

Dr. Shelby Harris

So it really does depend. But what I always try to do is start by moving the location to their back. So it’s much more difficult if the child is always falling asleep in the parent’s bed initially and the parents have to be there. So the first thing I always say is let’s change the location. Let’s at least get them in their room.

 

00;07;34;00 – 00;07;47;14

Dr. Shelby Harris

And if there’s some like, I don’t want to be in my room door at all at night. Like then you have to spend more time during the day in their room. Sometimes at this age you can have nighttime fears. So go through the closet like look through, you know, make some gains that they’re not so scared about the room.

 

00;07;47;16 – 00;08;03;07

Dr. Shelby Harris

And then it’s really about, I like at this stage because if you just keep like saying, you know, you’re going to beat on your own, whatever it is, you know, in Walk Away, they’re going to get out of the bed and keep running to you. So then it’s more about what we like to say. It’s called graduated extinction, but now they call it camping out, which is a much easier term.

 

00;08;03;09 – 00;08;20;16

Dr. Shelby Harris

And it’s like, okay, you stay there, but maybe you’re not in the bed with your child or rubbing their back, or you just stay there and you’re quiet and you sit at the edge of the bed, and then after a few days, if they fall asleep independently without needing you to rub their back or be in the bed with them, and you move maybe a foot or two away, and don’t talk to them like it’s bedtime at the rose.

 

00;08;20;16 – 00;08;41;15

Dr. Shelby Harris

I’m going to leave bedtime, and you keep slowly removing your presence so that you don’t have to be there over time. It takes a long time to do for some people, but it is a very effective treatment. And then also teaching them if the middle of the night is happening. I am a fan. I worked with Jody Mendell, who is one of Doctor in Dallas, like one of the biggest and most amazing researchers in pediatric sleep.

 

00;08;41;21 – 00;09;02;00

Dr. Shelby Harris

Her books sleeping Through the Night. I highly recommend everyone. It’s great. It’s older, but it’s great. So she always says, and this is based on research too. Like if they start falling asleep by themselves, this good for any age, usually about two weeks later, it starts to generalize to the middle of the night. So I don’t like do everything at once, just respond as you want in the middle and I’d have them come back to your room.

 

00;09;02;00 – 00;09;10;20

Dr. Shelby Harris

Whatever. Go to their room. But then after two weeks, if it still is happening with the middle of the night stuff, they can do the same thing with the camping out. That’s kind of what I like to do overall. Oh.

 

00;09;10;23 – 00;09;30;09

Dr. Mona

I love it. Yeah, and that’s great. And the schedule’s absolutely. And then also, yes, I also do agree with this graduated extinction. I like graduate extinction for all sorts of training. Yes, quote unquote. I think it’s the best method. I know we’re not talking about infants, but the little moments, checking in the check ins, I mean, it really does help.

 

00;09;30;09 – 00;09;48;18

Dr. Mona

And in this. Yeah. The camping out. I think this is wonderful. Have you ever recommended, like, a timer method? Like, if a child loves to lay down with the parent setting like a timer of I’ve done this with Ryan when we travel because he wants someone there. So we set like a ten minute timer and then my husband or I will leave and then he feels a little safer.

 

00;09;48;18 – 00;09;49;18

Dr. Mona

What about that?

 

00;09;49;20 – 00;10;03;09

Dr. Shelby Harris

You can do it. I can for sure, but it can backfire with some kids because then they’re like, how many more minutes left? How many more? If you have a little bit more of an anxious child, it can put more pressure on time and then make it worse. So just kind of have to use the temperament of the child to kind of guide, oh love it.

 

00;10;03;09 – 00;10;17;20

Dr. Mona

And exactly what this whole conversation is, the temperament in that. I love that we are talking about strategies because it’s not a one size fits all approach. There is going to have a point where you’re going to be like, well, I want to date night. I want to connect with my partner, and I love my child, and I just one night.

 

00;10;17;25 – 00;10;23;28

Dr. Mona

But if they have gotten so used to not having anybody else, it’s going to be this.

 

00;10;24;01 – 00;10;40;27

Dr. Shelby Harris

Yeah, it can become really problematic. And the other thing too, is to also think about like, do you have help during the day? Are they putting your child down like try it’s not easy all the time, but it’s more often you can be consistent with how you’re putting your child down. We’ll make it easier to in the long run, I love it.

 

00;10;40;27 – 00;10;45;28

Dr. Shelby Harris

I think that the take home message is don’t expect it’s going to get better over time.

 

00;10;45;29 – 00;10;53;00

Dr. Mona

Well, that’s a wonderful segway to the take home, because I was going to ask you, is there anything else you wanted to add besides obviously don’t expect it to get better.

 

00;10;53;03 – 00;11;10;07

Dr. Shelby Harris

I think it’s just, you know, and also to not assume that the only thing you can do or have to do is just like, leave your child and just ignore. Correct, right. For three nights like that. Now there are yeah, so many different ways. And when I work with patients and families, I’m always thinking about what will serve you, what will be the easiest?

 

00;11;10;07 – 00;11;27;09

Dr. Shelby Harris

The easiest? It’s never easy. Yeah. What will be the one thing that we can do where you can be consistent with it? Because if you’re only doing something for a night or two and it’s just too hard and you give up, it’s just going to make it prolonged even more so. I’d rather we do it slowly and consistently than, you know, just rip off the Band-Aid.

 

00;11;27;09 – 00;11;35;26

Dr. Shelby Harris

For a lot of families, some people are okay with that, but others, it can be really challenging, especially with the older kids. Absolutely.

 

00;11;35;29 – 00;11;57;07

Dr. Mona

And that’s your follow up. Just a small dose of the real relatable and eye opening conversations we love to have here. If you smiled, nodded, or had an moment, go ahead and download, follow and share this episode with a friend. Let’s grow this village together for more everyday parenting wins and real talk. Hang out with us on Instagram at the PedsDocTalk podcast.

 

00;11;57;14 – 00;12;12;28

Dr. Mona

Want more? Dive into the full episode and more at PedsDoctalk.com. Because parenting is better with support. And remember, consistency is key. Humor is medicine and follow ups are everything. I’m Doctor Mona. See you next time for your next dose.