On this episode, I welcome Dr. Jess Steier and Dr. Andrea Love, hosts of The Unbiased Science Podcast. Dr. Jess has a doctorate in public health with specialization in health policy evaluation and Dr. Andrea has a phD in Immunology and microbiology. They join me to discuss:

Marketing misinformation surrounding organic food
The Environmental Working Group (EWG) and biases they hold in education (especially surrounding organic foods)
Misconceptions about non-organic and organic foods

Learn more about Dr Jessica and Dr Andrea and listen to the Unbiased Science Podcast at unbiasedscipod.com. Or follow on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube @unbiasedscipod

Transcript

00;00;01;01 – 00;00;25;23

Dr. Andrea Love

EWG is funded by very large donations from large organic farms like Earthbound and Stonyfield and Applegate, and very broadly from the scientific community at large. EWG routinely misinterprets toxicological risks. They overstate potential health harms, and they also cherry pick studies that have poor scientific methodology.

00;00;25;25 – 00;00;48;12

Dr. Mona

Welcome to the PedsDocTalk podcast. This show’s success is largely due to you and the way you share the podcast with others and leave reviews, so thank you so much for tuning in each week and for leaving those reviews whenever you can. I’m so grateful to have the most amazing guest and the most amazing returning guest on the show to guide you in all things parenting topics about child health, development, and parental health.

00;00;48;19 – 00;01;14;28

Dr. Mona

Today’s guests are returning. Guest. They were on my show talking about how social media has harmed public health. And they’re returning today. They are Doctor Andrea Love, who has a PhD in immunology and microbiology, and Doctor Jess Steier, who has a doctorate in public health with specialization in health policy evaluation. And they are the co-hosts of the Unbiased Science podcast, and you can also find them on Instagram at Unbiased Science.

00;01;15;00 – 00;01;27;16

Dr. Mona

And they are one of my favorite accounts sharing evidence based information. And we’re talking today all about five things you may not know about organic food that will surprise you. Thank you so much for joining me today.

00;01;27;19 – 00;01;30;28

Dr. Jess Steier

Thanks so much for having us. Thanks so much for having us. Yes.

00;01;31;02 – 00;01;53;04

Dr. Mona

And you know, I like to always be real on my show. This episode has been rescheduled probably four times due to travel for them, illness for me, pregnancy stuff, childcare issues. So we are doing this thing and I’m so excited. And before we get into the episode, just let everyone know who may not be familiar with who you are, what unbiased science is all about.

00;01;53;07 – 00;01;55;01

Dr. Mona

Just give yourself a little introduction.

00;01;55;03 – 00;02;11;06

Dr. Andrea Love

All right, so I’ll go first. Maybe so I have as Mona mentioned, I have a PhD in microbiology and immunology. I specialize in pretty much all sorts of things related to the immune system infectious diseases, cancer, immunology, autoimmunity and I currently work in the biotech industry.

00;02;11;08 – 00;02;37;01

Dr. Jess Steier

And I have a doctorate in public health. I’m really a data scientist and I have my own data science consultancy, Vital Statistics Consulting. And Andrea and I, we were friends in college and we launched Unbiased Science to basically help demystify science, especially during the pandemic. But now we’re covering topics outside of Covid and Covid vaccines and really just trying to make sense of science.

00;02;37;01 – 00;02;45;21

Dr. Jess Steier

And we do a lot of debunking of misinformation and fearmongering. And I think that that’s relevant to today’s episode.

00;02;45;24 – 00;03;18;08

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And I discovered you all in the pandemic. And as you said, you did so much pandemic education. You all like are a superhero team because between immunology, microbiology and public health, I mean, Covid was your expertise. I mean, when you combine forces together and all the things that we’re talking about, the evidence base, I’m sure you deal with a lot of lovely comments on your post, a lot of lovely DMs, because people don’t want to hear the evidence, hear what we know, and I appreciate the work that you do because I know it’s not easy.

00;03;18;08 – 00;03;35;23

Dr. Mona

I obviously do parenting. I do a little bit of what you do in the child space, but when I do do the debunking, I understand and respect that a lot of people come at you saying, that’s not true, that’s not what it is. And you’re like, I’m just telling you all what this is what we know. You take it for what it is.

00;03;35;28 – 00;03;52;10

Dr. Mona

And I really appreciate the work that you do, because I know not only is it a lot of work to go through that data, but also the mental drain of having to go on social media and listen to the commentary and people who just may not understand the nuance that you’re providing and all of the things that you do.

00;03;52;10 – 00;03;56;28

Dr. Mona

So I respect you all so much. That’s what I wanted to tell you before we get started.

00;03;57;00 – 00;04;11;18

Dr. Jess Steier

Well thank you. Yeah, well, the same goes for you. Yeah. I was, you know, I’m a mom. I have two young kids, and I’ve referenced your posts. I don’t know more times than I can count. So thank you for what you’re doing as well. We ladies in science have to stick together.

00;04;11;20 – 00;04;29;07

Dr. Mona

Yes. And this topic, I think is an important one. And I think it actually will surprise a lot of people because of the way organic food is marketed and also what people say on social media. I told my husband that he has to watch this because he is also on organic food only shopper and I’m like, sweetie, it’s okay.

00;04;29;08 – 00;04;44;11

Dr. Mona

We can have non organic food. Sometimes it’s fine. Like we’re going to be okay. So he won’t listen to it because that’s just who he is. But that’s okay. But I want to talk about this because I think it’s so important. Because organic food is all the rage and a lot of social media circles, but just in society.

00;04;44;15 – 00;04;58;17

Dr. Mona

But there’s a lot of marketing misinformation and misinformation and maybe nuance in general. So let’s dive into the things that we should know about organic foods. And I believe that you have like five things. Obviously, there could be more that you want people to know about the mechanics foods.

00;04;58;19 – 00;05;25;05

Dr. Andrea Love

Yeah. So number one, organic farming and organic products use pesticides. There is a huge misconception that organic foods are pesticide free. And unfortunately, a lot of this has been propagated by the organization, the Environmental Working Group or the org. And they’re legally a nonprofit, but they’re essentially an activist group. And their goal is really to promote organic farming.

00;05;25;05 – 00;05;54;07

Dr. Andrea Love

A lot of their donors and things like that are large scale organic farms. And the biggest misconception is that organic products and organic foods are pesticide free. So what’s actually real is that they use a different class of pesticides. So they use what we call organic pesticides, which sometimes are also called natural pesticides. And all that means is that they have been derived from natural sources and have not been synthetically altered in a laboratory.

00;05;54;11 – 00;06;10;24

Dr. Andrea Love

Now, that doesn’t mean that they’re better or safer. And actually, in many cases, they can be more toxic at a lower dosage or lower exposure. Many of them actually bio accumulate, meaning they persist in the environment for longer periods of time. And when we alter a substance in the lab.

00;06;10;28 – 00;06;11;06

Dr. Mona

It’s.

00;06;11;06 – 00;06;39;18

Dr. Andrea Love

Usually to make it more stable, less toxic. So meaning you can use it with less harmful potential effects at higher doses or even at lower doses. Or you can make it more specific. So one of the biggest issues with organic pesticides, aside from the fact that some of them, like copper sulfate, is a really widely used one in bio accumulate, it targets all sorts of other species besides the pests that you’re trying to limit on your produce, on your crops.

00;06;39;26 – 00;07;11;25

Dr. Andrea Love

So it can kill fish, it can kill beneficial insects, it can harm other creatures in the environment. Whereas with a lot of conventional pesticides, which are those that we can synthetically alter in the laboratory, we can make them very specific, meaning they only target the pest species of interest. And so in reality, many conventional pesticides that you would use alternatively are going to be better for the crops, better for ecology in general, and also potentially better for you.

00;07;12;01 – 00;07;31;03

Dr. Andrea Love

So there’s a variety of natural or organic pesticides that are potentially very harmful both to humans and to the environment. And those would include things like I mentioned, copper sulfate. It’s 15 times more toxic compared to commonly used synthetic alternatives. And that’s a very, very commonly used one.

00;07;31;06 – 00;07;57;20

Dr. Jess Steier

So Mona, if I could just jump in with one thing, I mean, you used a really important term when you sort of set the stage for this, and that’s marketing. And I think that the word organic, yeah. We don’t ever fault people for, you know, falling prey to this idea that organic is better. Right. Because there’s this it’s been put in our minds, there’s this appeal to you constantly that organic is super.

00;07;57;23 – 00;08;16;10

Dr. Jess Steier

Right. And there’s this appeal to nature. And we’re dealing with that constantly. And Andrea was just talking about it, that there’s this idea that if something is either manufactured in a lab or altered some way in a lab, yeah, that it’s inherently, you know, it’s worse than if we were to get it from nature. And that’s absolutely not the truth.

00;08;16;10 – 00;08;40;06

Dr. Jess Steier

In fact, science has allowed us to, as Andrea said, take seeds from nature and then improve on them. And actually, in many ways, doing things in a lab helps us preserve nature. You know, we don’t have to destroy nature. So I just wanted to say that. And also, organic foods obviously come with a much higher price tag. You know, we’ll go to the grocery store.

00;08;40;06 – 00;09;00;15

Dr. Jess Steier

Andrea and I always say we never, ever buy organic unless the produce that’s in front of us happens to look better than the conventional. Yeah, and it is. But there’s this idea. It’s really it’s coming from a place of elitism. You know, a lot of people can’t afford a $2 apple or, you know, or whatever it is. So there’s this element of like shaming.

00;09;00;16 – 00;09;01;15

Dr. Jess Steier

Sorry. Yeah.

00;09;01;17 – 00;09;22;12

Dr. Andrea Love

So I no, no, I was just going to add, you know, and a lot of the misconception about the pesticide residue is based on that Dirty Dozen report. Right. So the EWG releases this very scary report for consumers every year. And it suggests that, you know, these are the 12 most contaminated food products that are conventional. And therefore, you must buy organic.

00;09;22;19 – 00;09;47;14

Dr. Andrea Love

But what they don’t mention is that all of the data that they’re using is from the USDA and the USDA, and the EPA regulates synthetic pesticides for toxicity and safe levels being applied to crops. But organic pesticides are not regulated at all. So it’s the Wild West with organic pesticides. And as a result, they’re not included in those residue reports because they’re not monitored for safety and toxicity.

00;09;47;14 – 00;09;59;23

Dr. Andrea Love

And so, you know, they obviously ignore that or omit that. Again, it propagates the fear of chemicals in and of themselves. And also the just this patent misinformation that, you know, organic produce is pesticide free, which.

00;09;59;26 – 00;10;00;27

Dr. Jess Steier

Which does not apply.

00;10;00;29 – 00;10;02;02

Dr. Mona

I think that was I’m sorry.

00;10;02;02 – 00;10;02;11

Dr. Jess Steier

Yeah.

00;10;02;11 – 00;10;21;02

Dr. Mona

But I think I think that’s a number. I love it, but I think that one of your things about organic food that will surprise you is The Dirty Dozen, and how it is a fear based marketing scheme, if you want to elaborate on that further, because I do believe, yeah, I remember when I on my account had first shared about the EWG and their background, people were like, that’s not true.

00;10;21;03 – 00;10;31;26

Dr. Mona

Like a lot of it had to do with sunscreen, not necessarily food. Yes. And then the Dirty Dozen. So maybe kind of diving in a little bit to the Dirty Dozen. What is misinformed about that? Yeah.

00;10;31;29 – 00;10;57;27

Dr. Andrea Love

Yeah, I would love to. So as I mentioned, the EWG or the Environmental Working Group is an activist group, and it’s all purported to be, you know, environmentally conscious. And it touts that it’s making consumers lives healthier and safer. And so it has lists for sunscreens and foods and all sorts of that. They have their feet in a lot of different markets, but ultimately, very broadly, they are funded by people that have ulterior motives.

00;10;57;27 – 00;11;27;22

Dr. Andrea Love

You know, there are potential conflicts of interest. And in the context of organic food, they release this Dirty Dozen list, and they claim that it lists the 12 produced items with the highest number of pesticide residues that you should avoid and buy organic, and it’s not safe. And all of this. And so it’s important to note that is funded by very large donations from large organic farms like Earthbound and Stonyfield and Applegate, and very broadly from the scientific community at large.

00;11;27;22 – 00;11;40;22

Dr. Andrea Love

EWG routinely misinterprets toxicological risks. They overstate potential health harms, and they also cherry pick studies that have poor scientific methodology.

00;11;40;22 – 00;12;09;02

Dr. Jess Steier

Well, and we just did an episode on preclinical research using animals and a lot of the times EWG will rely on those preclinical animal studies that are, you know, at extremely high doses of a particular pesticide or chemical or whatever it is in a rat for. So you’re dealing with a dose that just does not represent what we would consume unless we’re consuming like 50,000 apples in one sitting.

00;12;09;10 – 00;12;29;08

Dr. Jess Steier

And also, you know, while pre-clinical research has its value, and we did a deep dive on that in a recent episode, you can’t just immediately take what happens in a rat and assume that’s going to happen in a human. And so unfortunately, as Andrea just said, they’ll cherry pick those studies, they’ll use those studies and then extrapolate them and say, well, look, it cause cancer in rats.

00;12;29;13 – 00;12;35;02

Dr. Jess Steier

Well, the dosage was completely representative and you’re looking at a rat and not a human. So yeah.

00;12;35;05 – 00;12;59;21

Dr. Andrea Love

And they also they use these studies where they talk about like the levels of residues, conventional residues found on produced items. And as I mentioned already, it doesn’t include organic pesticide residues because those actually aren’t monitored by the EPA. So those data aren’t available. So what they do is they basically, you know, all pesticides, they ignore all of the organic pesticides, and then they’re like, oh, look at all these conventional pesticide residues.

00;12;59;24 – 00;13;19;24

Dr. Andrea Love

But the way that they report it is not based on the actual levels of pesticide residues, which are tested and regulated and monitored, and all of them on the produce items that you’re getting are more than safe to consume. But the way they do it is they say, oh, well, we found ten different pesticide residues on this apple.

00;13;19;26 – 00;13;40;27

Dr. Andrea Love

Each of them were 1000 times lower than the tolerance limit set. But therefore, because there was ten of them, it’s dirty. Whereas if they found one pesticide residue, which was 100 times lower than the tolerance, it’s 100 fold higher level. But there’s only one of them. That one’s going to be ranked as clean. So it’s just a completely flawed method.

00;13;41;05 – 00;14;02;06

Dr. Andrea Love

And what it does is it scares consumers. It basically scares them away from consuming more produce broadly, especially if they can’t afford the organic alternatives. And it’s even worse for parents because now they’re like, oh my God, I can’t feed my kid a strawberry because now I’m doing something bad to them because the EWG told me that this is harmful.

00;14;02;06 – 00;14;17;15

Dr. Andrea Love

So it’s all fear based. There’s no science behind their rankings or their methods, and in reality, any produce you get at the grocery store is going to be nutritious and safe. And we should all just eat more protein. Yeah, and I.

00;14;17;15 – 00;14;36;29

Dr. Mona

Love that you went through that because I feel like like I said, I get this so much and there’s so many like fear based messages that I get like, hey, I heard this. Like not related to this topic, but a mom had messaged me the other day that she went to a virtual conference and someone was talking about lead and lead in Pyrex measuring cups, and I’m like, are you serious?

00;14;36;29 – 00;15;00;08

Dr. Mona

Like she said that the lines in Pyrex measuring cups can lead to lead exposure. I’m like, does that person see children with high lead? Like I can tell you as a clinician, what is leading to high lead exposure? It is the poor children in Flint, Michigan drinking lead in their water. It is the peeling paint. It’s not the measuring cup that you’re using to measure waffle mix.

00;15;00;08 – 00;15;15;23

Dr. Mona

Like this kind of stuff is so important for us to go over because of the fear, like you said. And I know your audience is broad, not just parents, but I wanted to bring you on because it is very stressful when you’re already trying to get your kid to eat something. We know this, right? My son loves fruit.

00;15;16;01 – 00;15;34;13

Dr. Mona

I don’t even know what the Dirty Dozen are, because I understand that that’s obviously the metaphor behind it, but I have no problem giving my son or myself pregnant fruit from my regular grocery store. That’s not organic. And going back to what you had mentioned, both of you don’t particularly buy organic. Same with us, like I have noticed.

00;15;34;13 – 00;15;51;05

Dr. Mona

Also, just from personal experience, when my husband goes to a place that has organic fruit, it goes bad way faster. In our home in Florida, I literally I’m like, where did you go grocery shopping? I’m like, did you go to our regular grocery store? Did you go to Whole Foods? And he’s like, I went to a regular grocery store.

00;15;51;05 – 00;16;13;07

Dr. Mona

I’m like, this isn’t my regular fruit. Something’s. I’m like, this is going bad. The bananas are going bad really fast. And something’s up like, and I’m like, can you please stop getting the produce from Whole Foods? Like, I need you to just get it from the regular grocery store because something’s up, whether it’s how they transport it, the organic nature of it, I don’t know, but it’s.

00;16;13;07 – 00;16;14;05

Dr. Jess Steier

Not going bad.

00;16;14;06 – 00;16;15;10

Dr. Mona

Well, fast.

00;16;15;12 – 00;16;31;24

Dr. Andrea Love

And it’s actually really interesting cause it’s going to vary, you know, produce my produce item. But there are certain conventional produce items that have been genetically modified. And again, that’s a whole other thing where GMOs are not the same as organic, but they often go hand in hand, because they’re not permitted to be used in organic farming.

00;16;32;00 – 00;16;56;16

Dr. Andrea Love

But certain genetic modifications actually can extend the shelf life of produce items so they can have a longer shelf life, and that leads to lower food waste and, you know, reduce rates of spoilage. But on top of that, some of the organic pesticides use or on bacteria sides are not as effective. And so they can, you know, lead to things being in or on the fruits that can accelerate spoilage and other sorts of things.

00;16;56;18 – 00;17;02;20

Dr. Jess Steier

So the second thing, if we’re go, I know we had a lesson. I think we yeah, we’ve done two. Oh we’ve done two.

00;17;02;23 – 00;17;07;11

Dr. Mona

Yeah. Ganic farming and then the okay doesn’t skip. So yeah. What’s the next one.

00;17;07;13 – 00;17;39;27

Dr. Jess Steier

Yeah I think a good next one to talk about is the nutritional value of organics. You know, there’s this idea that they’re better for you and for your children. And that’s just absolutely not true. There have been countless studies that have compared the nutritional value. There’s absolutely no difference. And I think, as Andreas said, this is really doing a disservice to Americans who are not getting enough produce in our diets and who then turn to things like vitamins and supplements when all we need to be doing is eating more, you know, fruits and veggies in our diet.

00;17;39;27 – 00;18;05;06

Dr. Jess Steier

Yeah. And so it’s scaring people away from the conventional produce. And again, as I said, you know, I think I just really, you know, coming from a public health perspective, it really bothers me because there are people who can’t afford organic produce, and they’re feeling this guilt and shame because they can’t afford this more expensive alternative, which is being touted as superior when it is not certainly not nutritionally superior in any way.

00;18;05;13 – 00;18;07;14

Dr. Jess Steier

I understand.

00;18;07;16 – 00;18;23;01

Dr. Mona

Like, yes, the Facebook thinks like, oh, I got this. You’re giving your kid a non-organic blueberry. Like, I would never do that, but do you, do you? I’m like, that is a backhanded insult. So you say you do you and don’t say, I would never do that. But you do you. That’s like the ultimate. If you.

00;18;23;03 – 00;18;25;22

Dr. Jess Steier

Like. Yeah.

00;18;25;24 – 00;18;52;25

Dr. Andrea Love

You know, as I just mentioned, it’s shaming and also elitist. Because we know that organic produce is on average at least 50% more expensive. And in reality, again, it’s not more nutritious, it’s not more nutrient dense. Numerous meta analyzes and studies have assessed that, and we hear a lot well, you know, organic farms are smaller. And so they’re crop cycling more often and they’re not depleting the nutrients in the soil.

00;18;52;25 – 00;19;16;23

Dr. Andrea Love

And that’s just not true either. The organic farms that are serving your large scale grocery stores are doing the same type of agricultural practices as large conventional farms. They’re using the soil and the same sort of methodologies. And in many ways they operate just like factory farms. And so and I know we’re talking about produce here, but the same is true for organic animal products.

00;19;16;26 – 00;19;37;10

Dr. Andrea Love

What we’re talking about eggs or dairy or meat or things like that. And I think we’re going to touch on a kind of a related topic there when we talk about, another myth about organic. But yeah, if you’re choosing organic for, I don’t know, a specific reason, don’t do it because of the perception that it’s healthier or more nutritious, because that’s simply not the case.

00;19;37;10 – 00;19;52;26

Dr. Mona

Like you said, you may like it just because you like the way that fruit looks in the store like it looks fresh. The strawberries look more red like that. I go by that stuff. It sounds not evidence, but it’s like, hey, this looks better to me. And if it’s organic, I’m grateful that I can afford the extra $0.80 or a dollar to be able to afford that.

00;19;52;26 – 00;20;12;04

Dr. Mona

But like you said, the stigma and I, I work in a very diverse socioeconomic practice, like I have super wealthy multimillionaire children, and then I have families who are like trying to make ends meet on food stamps, like figuring out what to do. And like you said, just the goal is that I want just people to eat natural like fruits and vegetables, which is stuff from the earth.

00;20;12;04 – 00;20;25;05

Dr. Mona

It doesn’t mean it has to be organic, but when you start to say, well, no, no, no, what you get from the earth matters, you have to get this one versus this one. Oh my gosh, like it’s so stressful to meal plan as it is. So I love these three already. These are so important.

00;20;25;07 – 00;20;45;22

Dr. Andrea Love

And maybe related to that just very quickly. There’s also this, you know, misconception that it has to be fresh produce. And that’s also for frozen produce and canned even, you know they’re nutritious and accessible. And for many people who maybe can’t get to the grocery store as frequently, it’s a great way to keep on hand great sources of nutrients, fiber, and all sorts of stuff.

00;20;45;22 – 00;21;03;08

Dr. Mona

So can I tell you something? I feel like this all like, again, going back to what I said to you all at the beginning, that I’m so, like happy that you do the work that you do. When I got on social media was when I realized how bad this all was, like I was living a very peaceful, non misinformed life before I started my account.

00;21;03;14 – 00;21;23;15

Dr. Mona

And then I got on social and I’m like, I tell my husband, I’m like, my mental health definitely is affected by being a creator because I hear all this information and I’m like, where are you getting this from? And number two, I’m so sorry that you’re consuming this because you’re probably like up at 1 a.m. when you should be sleeping, trying to figure out, okay, well, I can’t afford this.

00;21;23;15 – 00;21;33;11

Dr. Mona

I can’t do this. And it’s so, so stressful. And, you know, we all just need some kumbaya of, like, trying to figure out how to get this energy out of our space because it’s harming people for sure.

00;21;33;12 – 00;22;00;15

Dr. Jess Steier

It is harming people, especially when you have people. And, you know, I’m naming names, I’m sorry, but like Gwyneth Paltrow with Goop and Kourtney Kardashian with like the, you know, especially young people are really they worship these people who have no medical or scientific expertise. And, you know, they’re putting out in the world that organic is, you know, that the only way and you have to have non-GMO and all these other topics that we’ve talked about and that maybe we’ll get into it other time about it.

00;22;00;17 – 00;22;09;27

Dr. Jess Steier

But, you know, it’s just unbelievably frustrating for us because we’re like shouting the science from the rooftops. Yeah, but our content isn’t as sexy as their content, I.

00;22;09;29 – 00;22;26;05

Dr. Mona

Think, like fighting. I’m like the digital doctor, Jess. We’re not as sexy as the the controversial comments. I know I don’t look at us, right. Like yeah, it’s. Yeah, yeah, well these are great. Three. And I think the other segue is about let’s go to that about the livestock that you mentioned about necessity. Yeah. We can do that.

00;22;26;09 – 00;22;59;00

Dr. Andrea Love

Yeah. Yeah. So actually I wanted to maybe quickly talk about the bacterial contamination because it is related to the livestock issue. So you want your food supply to be safe. You want to reduce your risk of foodborne illness. One of the regulations related to raising organic animal products is that the animals cannot be treated with antibiotics and what that means is that if they have an infection or if there is any sort of contamination, they potentially have higher levels of bacterial contamination.

00;22;59;01 – 00;23;23;07

Dr. Andrea Love

And so when we’re talking about foodborne illness, we’re looking at a few different ways. So meat and animal products can get contaminated from handling practices. They can get contaminated fruits and vegetables can get contaminated from handling or eating. And then of course you can get contamination when like animal waste gets into things and water supply and other food supply and so on and so forth.

00;23;23;10 – 00;23;49;19

Dr. Andrea Love

So in the context of organic or conventional agriculture, there’s a growing trend towards, you know, looking for organic animal products or products that are raised with antibiotics. Now, certainly we want to reduce the overuse of antibiotics, but there’s a very real reason that we use antibiotics with poultry and livestock. And this is ultimately like to prevent illness, you know, spreading amongst animals.

00;23;49;22 – 00;24;13;05

Dr. Andrea Love

Right now, obviously, we’re seeing a huge outbreak of avian influenza. It also helps to treat infections. So for example, in dairy cows they can develop mastitis which is an infection inflammation of the other. And it also ultimately reduces the spread of illness. Antibiotics also allow animals to grow about 5% more than those who have not had antibiotic treatment, and it does extend life expectancy.

00;24;13;08 – 00;24;41;15

Dr. Andrea Love

It also extends the shelf life of animal products like eggs and dairy, because it reduces the amount of baseline bacteria in those samples, and it reduces the rate of potential spoilage. So if you’re buying organic milk versus conventional milk, you’re going to find if you keep them on the shelf in the same conditions for the same period of time, the organic milk will spoil faster because it has higher levels of baseline bacteria, just as a function of the fact that those organic cows are not treated with antibiotics.

00;24;41;17 – 00;24;45;19

Dr. Mona

And having antibiotics is not taking away nutritional value of these products.

00;24;45;19 – 00;24;46;07

Dr. Andrea Love

Absolutely.

00;24;46;07 – 00;24;47;17

Dr. Mona

Yeah. Like you talked about. Yes.

00;24;47;23 – 00;25;11;09

Dr. Andrea Love

And agricultural veterinarians are very good at what they do. This is all regulated by the USDA, the CDC, the FDA. There is actually also no evidence that antibiotics in animals used in agriculture to harm people, but actually shows that the antibiotic residues that may be present in those animal products are well below the levels of anything that would impact humans.

00;25;11;15 – 00;25;36;25

Dr. Andrea Love

So you’re not actually consuming antibiotics in those animal products anyway. But they’ve actually found that when you look at studies, when you’re looking at potential food borne pathogens like salmonella, campylobacter, e coli, if you look at organic versus conventional, you’re seeing higher levels of these types of bacteria in the organic animal products. So we’re talking about things like, chicken, beef, turkey, pork.

00;25;37;02 – 00;25;38;08

Dr. Jess Steier

Higher levels.

00;25;38;08 – 00;25;45;14

Dr. Andrea Love

Of those types of bacteria that can lead to foodborne illness in organic products versus the conventional products.

00;25;45;21 – 00;25;54;00

Dr. Mona

Very good to know, and I love that you clarified that because, yes, people are always looking for those things based on what they’re hearing online. Just do you have anything to add or going to about the livestock?

00;25;54;00 – 00;26;15;25

Dr. Jess Steier

No, I was going to go to the livestock actually. Yeah. Because, you know, Andrew and I are major animal lovers ourselves. And, you know, we definitely can understand if people are concerned about the welfare of the animals. And also, you know, the environment. And I think this idea that organic is better for the environment and that’s not based on reality.

00;26;15;25 – 00;26;21;06

Dr. Jess Steier

That’s not the truth. Andrea, did you want to jump in with this? Any specific fair or. Yeah.

00;26;21;06 – 00;26;46;13

Dr. Andrea Love

So when we’re talking about like environment at large, because some of these organic pesticides in particular are more broad spectrum, so to speak, they’re actually going to kill off other potentially beneficial organisms. So there’s a couple of anti aphid treatments. And they actually kill ladybird beetles things that actually would naturally kill aphids. And so not only are you not as effective at killing aphids you’re also killing their natural predators.

00;26;46;13 – 00;27;07;20

Dr. Andrea Love

So you’re it’s like a one to hit with an ecological impact. And so in reality, you know, they’re not necessarily better for the environment. They’re large scale, you know, farming practices just like you would see in conventional agriculture. And there’s a very distinct difference between organic farming and small scale or local farming. And that’s, you know, a whole different topic of conversation.

00;27;07;20 – 00;27;28;29

Dr. Andrea Love

And, you know, but when we talk about animal welfare, yeah, people do want sustainably sourced. And we want to make sure that the animals are being treated humanely. And there’s a lot of those, like videos circulated by Peta that like, you know, they’re very fear mongering and stuff like that. But in reality, large scale organic farms operate very, very similarly to large scale conventional farms.

00;27;28;29 – 00;28;04;24

Dr. Andrea Love

So they’re not necessarily treating animals more humanely. And because they’re not given things like antibiotics when they’re sick or and many of them are not given things like salmonella, vaccinations can be given to chickens to reduce the rates of salmonella outbreak. They’re often, like, not as healthy. There’s spread of outbreaks and things like that. So if you’re really concerned with things like animal welfare, you want to look for things like free range or looking for a local farm that you can verify that the animals have land to graze on and they have access to the outdoors.

00;28;04;24 – 00;28;06;12

Dr. Andrea Love

But it has nothing to do with weather.

00;28;06;15 – 00;28;27;06

Dr. Jess Steier

And I was just going to say that to the point, if that’s okay. So any time you say this, people yell at us that we’re hurting local farmers. And so to Andrew, I would just want to echo again what Andrea just said when both whenever possible buy from local farms or, you know, grass fed free range. I mean, we’re looking for those things.

00;28;27;06 – 00;28;34;14

Dr. Jess Steier

But again, that has nothing to do with the organic label. We’re talking about two different things. And I think they often get conflated.

00;28;34;16 – 00;28;36;14

Dr. Mona

Yeah. Talking about marketing. Yeah.

00;28;36;16 – 00;28;58;13

Dr. Andrea Love

Yes it’s marketing. And also because there’s less regulation on kind of the standards for, you know, certain types of organic certified producers. People assume that organic farms have exposure to fresh air and vegetation and more space. But in reality the USDA organic certification doesn’t have standards for any of those things. The outdoor space and the outdoor access and things like that.

00;28;58;13 – 00;29;19;09

Dr. Andrea Love

So we get it, you know, local and, you know, small scale local producers can be cost prohibitive for many. So if that’s where you’re at, don’t necessarily try to say, okay, well, organic is going to be better for the animals, you know, and spend your money on that. Because in reality, if it’s a large organic farm, it’s going to be very much the same treatment.

00;29;19;10 – 00;29;20;10

Dr. Mona

Oh, this is so good.

00;29;20;10 – 00;29;22;17

Dr. Andrea Love

And I out antibiotics without antibiotics.

00;29;22;18 – 00;29;42;00

Dr. Mona

I really love this conversation. Like I said, I, I knew a lot of this stuff, but once I started being on social media, I have that love hate relationship where the hate is all the misinformation, but the love is people like you and accounts like yours that really try to take the information and say, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let’s take a step back and let’s clarify these audacious conversations that are happening.

00;29;42;05 – 00;29;49;27

Dr. Mona

So thank you. I know obviously there’s so many more things about organic foods that you can go over, and you all probably even have a podcast episode about this already, right?

00;29;49;27 – 00;29;50;15

Dr. Jess Steier

Oh yeah.

00;29;50;19 – 00;29;57;26

Dr. Mona

We do. Yes, yes. So tell us what would be a final message for everyone listening today about this conversation?

00;29;57;28 – 00;30;32;05

Dr. Andrea Love

Well, I think for me, you know, the biggest thing is that this idea of like superiority of organic products, whether it’s produce, whether it’s animal products, whether it’s even things like tampons, because cotton can be organic. It’s a false dichotomy. It’s misleading. It’s potentially dangerous. There’s no inherent benefit to something being natural versus synthetic. And in many ways, science and the ability to do synthetic adjustments of chemicals actually can improve the safety and improve the nutrition of our foods.

00;30;32;11 – 00;30;36;01

Dr. Andrea Love

And an overall, you know, just eat more produce.

00;30;36;03 – 00;31;01;20

Dr. Jess Steier

Exactly. Yeah. And I would just say, you know, Andrew and I are a tree hugging, nature loving, animal loving people. And we’re also scientists. And it’s frustrating that often people see nature and non-organic things as mutually exclusive, but they are not, and unfortunately, people who are in business, they know what to say to get us to fork out more money for things.

00;31;01;20 – 00;31;16;25

Dr. Jess Steier

And you just don’t have to. Parents. I’m talking to you. I’ve fallen victim to this. I remember when I was pregnant, my mother in law started weeping. When I was a I made a smoothie with, you know, conventional strawberries or whatever it was. And it was, you know, that’s the.

00;31;16;25 – 00;31;19;05

Dr. Mona

Dirtiest whatever, I don’t know.

00;31;19;08 – 00;31;30;05

Dr. Jess Steier

So just put that at the door, you know, just have fruit, eat as much fruit and veggies as you want and don’t worry about conventional or organic. Just yeah, save your money.

00;31;30;07 – 00;31;39;17

Dr. Mona

I’m not only was the conversation good, but that final message was amazing as well. And where can people stay connected? I already said at the beginning, but if you want to share website, social media channel, podcast, all of that.

00;31;39;19 – 00;32;05;26

Dr. Andrea Love

Yeah, definitely. So we’re on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn. It’s at Unbiased Sci Pod. We also have a YouTube channel now. We are recording videos for our podcast so you can find us there at YouTube.com, slash at on my ASI pod. And if you want to see all of the references that we include for every single post, we have a huge searchable database on our website, which is on by side pod.com.

00;32;05;26 – 00;32;23;18

Dr. Mona

The website is amazing. All like I have the same thing where you can search, but their database is so good. And so if you’re ever listening to something or hearing something and you’re like, oh man, I just wonder where I can get a reputable explanation of this. Try their website first. Really? Trust me. Try their website, search it, see if it’s there.

00;32;23;18 – 00;32;38;15

Dr. Mona

You’ll pull up a bunch of things like I did this when I was. We were trying to figure out a topic for the show, and it’s a huge wealth of information that they provide free, which is what they’re trying to do. There’s nothing there’s no ulterior motive. They’re not trying to sell a non-organic farm or anything like that.

00;32;38;15 – 00;32;43;20

Dr. Mona

They just want to educate people and make you feel less shame. So thank you both for joining me today.

00;32;43;23 – 00;32;46;10

Dr. Jess Steier

Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having.

00;32;46;11 – 00;33;05;01

Dr. Mona

Thank you and for everyone listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I hope you learned something. And if you were a stronghold on organic produce, like we said, you can still buy this stuff. But I want you to reduce that shame for other people. Understand that there are other choices out there and make sure you leave a review if you found this conversation enlightening.

00;33;05;05 – 00;33;12;15

Dr. Mona

If you love the work that Jess and Andrea are doing, because I do, it means so much for us to hear the review.

00;33;12;18 – 00;33;28;09

Dr. Mona

Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review. Share this episode with a friend. Share it on your social media. Make sure to follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram and subscribe to my YouTube channel, PedsDocTalk TV. We’ll talk to you soon.

Please note that our transcript may not exactly match the final audio, as minor edits or adjustments could be made during production.