Time-Outs get a bad rap on social media; however when done correctly, they can be effective for some children. On this episode, I welcome Dr Jenicka Engler, a developmental neuropsychologist, clinical scientist, and mom to discuss:

• Why Time-outs get a bad rap
• When time-outs can be effective
• When NOT to use time-outs
• How parents misuse time outs

Find Dr. Jenicka on Instagram @drjenicka

00:00:01:01 – 00:00:22:01
Dr Jenicka Engler
So you’re going to apply different sorts of techniques based upon what the current situation is and your knowledge of your child. Because there are going to be some kids at time outs would work really well for there going to be other kids through time outs are not necessarily going to work for. It’s not that you apply blindly. You have to sort of use it judiciously.

00:00:22:03 – 00:00:40:07
Dr. Mona
Welcome back to the PedsDocTalk Podcast, a podcast that continues to grow because of you and your reviews. A podcast where I get to welcome the most amazing guests to chat about all things parenting, child health, child development, and parental mental health. Today’s guest is a three time guest on this show because I just love her so much.

00:00:40:12 – 00:00:57:00
Dr. Mona
Dr Jenicka Engler, a developmental neuropsychologist, clinical scientist and mom and she was on the show before talking about reward systems and also about praise. But she’s joining me today to talk about our time out in parenting. Thank you so much for joining me again, doctor Jenica.

00:00:57:02 – 00:01:04:17
Dr Jenicka Engler
As always, happy to clear up some of the very popular misconceptions about some of these things that are going around on social media.

00:01:04:19 – 00:01:27:13
Dr. Mona
Yeah, well, I love talking to you because you have the experience of being a developmental neuropsychologist, clinical scientist who you obviously are practicing and doing research, all of this stuff. You’re a mom as well. So you provide such a balanced perspective, which if you listen to our episode about crazy balanced perspectives, are so important in parenting and everything that we do for everyone who may not be familiar with who you are.

00:01:27:17 – 00:01:33:13
Dr. Mona
Tell us more about yourself and what you do as a developmental neuropsychologist and clinical scientist.

00:01:33:15 – 00:02:05:13
Dr Jenicka Engler
Yes, so I am a licensed psychologist specializing in pediatrics with an extra subspecialty in developmental neuropsychology, meaning that I am considered an expert in child development and the assessment of various neurodevelopmental disorders, as well as evidence based treatment modalities for both children and adults as well. And then much of my research surrounds mood disorders, anxiety, PTSD, borderline personality, all sorts of fun stuff there.

00:02:05:13 – 00:02:19:12
Dr Jenicka Engler
So I get the clinical side of things through my training and clinical work. And then now I’m more oriented in research. So it’s been nice because I get to sort of see both sides of sort of how things come together, which is really nice.

00:02:19:14 – 00:02:29:10
Dr. Mona
Yeah, and I didn’t even mention it. But besides all that education, you are on social media debunking misinformation and providing nuance and and so it’s like a part time job over there too.

00:02:29:12 – 00:02:48:10
Dr Jenicka Engler
It is, it is. And so I sort of bring the heat in my stories mostly where I will call out careers, parenting and pop psychology misinformation that are making the rounds and, you know, kind of keeping things spicy over there because unfortunately, nuance can be sort of basic and boring. But yeah, you are.

00:02:48:11 – 00:03:06:02
Dr. Mona
Well, I know we’ve talked, like I said, about reward systems and praise, which are two things already that are kind of lacking nuance on the social media space. And I really wanted to chat with you about timeouts today, and this idea that time outs are out, that you cannot do them, we can’t have them, that they’re harming our children.

00:03:06:02 – 00:03:24:02
Dr. Mona
And I believe that there’s so much again, lack of understand of time outs. I do believe that a lot of parents are not doing time outs correctly, but also that there is an understanding that it is an actually useful tool in our toolbelt. So what is the deal with time outs? What have you heard about why they’re ruining our children?

00:03:24:02 – 00:03:26:14
Dr. Mona
And then let’s talk about why they’re actually not.

00:03:26:16 – 00:04:02:13
Dr Jenicka Engler
Sure. So with the more recent gentle parenting movement, there has been vilification really, of timeouts as, they are being really vilified for quote unquote, ruining attachment or quote unquote causing trauma. That’s like all these things that there is absolutely no evidence that points to any of this. In fact, all of the research, which is we have decades and hundreds and hundreds of studies show the exact opposite, but it’s sort of doesn’t feel good for a lot of parents to put their kids in timeout sometimes.

00:04:02:15 – 00:04:28:02
Dr Jenicka Engler
Yeah, I think a lot of folks sort of look at it as essentially crying it out, but instead of for sleep training, your behavior training, right, right, right. And so I think it goes hand in hand with the backlash against sort of cried out and sleep training where you know now that everything needs to be validated and acknowledged and everything is about connecting with your kid and anything that goes wrong, you have to have more connection sets with gentle parenting and conscious and respectful parenting.

00:04:28:04 – 00:04:53:10
Dr Jenicka Engler
I’ll say, you know, timeout is really being vilified as like, well, we only used that because we were trying to get people to stop beating their kids. And it’s like, okay, like this is a bit extreme, right? Yeah. Yes. Use of timeouts, certainly, along with other positive parenting techniques, sort of emerged as a way to promote parents not to use yelling or corporal punishment.

00:04:53:12 – 00:05:17:21
Dr Jenicka Engler
It doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re not effective and that they’re not safe. But you did touch upon a really important point, which is that studies actually have shown that most parents who are using timeouts are not doing it correctly. So I think that’s also the other problem is that timeouts in general are getting a bad rap, because there are so many folks who actually don’t know how to do a timeout properly, seek consultation onto what they’re doing.

00:05:17:21 – 00:05:44:12
Dr Jenicka Engler
They’re just told, oh, you’re being naughty. Go sit on the naughty chair like they use it in a punitive or very shaming way. And that is actually not a good way to do timeouts, because it literally is sort of going against what the whole premise of timeout is, which is really to be used as a way to take time and space to calm down, because when you are extremely dysregulated, learning cannot happen, right?

00:05:44:12 – 00:06:07:21
Dr Jenicka Engler
So if you’re not able to calm down, you’re not going to be able to learn from that moment. And that’s what discipline needs like to teach. Essentially, you don’t want to, you know, use it as a way to shame or do it in an angry way. It’s something where it’s really the object is to help calm your body down, to regain control.

00:06:08:02 – 00:06:31:18
Dr Jenicka Engler
And then you are in a position where you can actually learn from that situation. And that’s, I think, what sort of is getting missed because everybody’s like, oh, well, you’re sending a child away. They don’t have self-soothing capacity at this age. And it’s hard because people think that all kids are the same. And blanket statements are something that can be used, you know, very generally.

00:06:31:18 – 00:06:45:10
Dr Jenicka Engler
And I think that the sort of nuance that gets lost here is that, you know, there’s a balance to using timeouts now for about the circumstances under which you should use timeouts and how often do you timeouts and things like that as well.

00:06:45:12 – 00:06:55:17
Dr. Mona
Yeah, I agree with this. And especially what you just mentioned about that. No two kids are the same, which is why I think timeouts can be a useful tool. Just out of curiosity, do you all use timeouts?

00:06:55:19 – 00:07:17:05
Dr Jenicka Engler
So I actually did not have lot either. Yes. So here’s what I really want everybody to know is that there are so many strategies you can use before you need to get to timeouts. So timeouts are not something that I mean, I don’t think anybody out there is advocating like wanting to use a timeout. Like that’s not how.

00:07:17:07 – 00:07:36:22
Dr. Mona
I will say. I will say though, like in training, like in residency training, a lot of what we learned is timeout first. And that actually is something that I changed as I started to learn more about behavior modification and stuff like that. So I think there is there is a lot of old school clinicians and stuff that are talking about timeouts being first line.

00:07:36:22 – 00:07:37:11
Dr. Mona
I’m being honest.

00:07:37:11 – 00:07:40:14
Dr Jenicka Engler
So I don’t know. That’s super interesting. So so.

00:07:40:14 – 00:07:57:15
Dr. Mona
I think that’s important that I’ve heard it and I’ve seen it. And I also was like, I don’t really like timeout, like meaning I was trained with there. But then as I got through my career, I was like, I think there’s other ways that we can approach this, you know? So I think there is a cultural, maybe generational sort of standard generation.

00:07:57:16 – 00:08:25:02
Dr Jenicka Engler
Maybe, maybe it reflects a very early sort of teaching of timeouts and over time, like, you know, things we sort of refine our techniques based upon the literature and what we find works and doesn’t work over time because very hard for timeout. I mean, yes, it can be effective, but is it necessary. Usually not. And that’s I think the most important piece that sometimes gets missed here is that you’re never really using timeouts in isolation.

00:08:25:07 – 00:08:45:17
Dr Jenicka Engler
Right. In isolation, I don’t mean that you’re not actually isolating the kid because that actually is an important component of doing a proper timeout is that you do need to remove proximity and attention, you know, from the parent to the child. There needs to be that separation there. But what I mean is that you’re not using an isolation from other positive parenting techniques.

00:08:45:17 – 00:09:06:14
Dr Jenicka Engler
So the way that I look at the timeout, it’s really like a pyramid. So and this is a balanced approach to discipline that I sort is, you know, espoused across the board. And this falls in line with most of the various evidence backed parenting approaches as well. So when you are thinking about various discipline, think about like almost like the old school food pyramid, right?

00:09:06:14 – 00:09:35:23
Dr Jenicka Engler
We’re dating ourselves here. So the base of the discipline hierarchy is going to be that 1 to 1 attention and connection building. Right? So that’s the piece where positive parenting and gentle parenting overlap, right? We both want you to have great connection 1 to 1 time with your kid. Right? Because if you have that 1 to 1 attention time, you’re giving them attention for, you know, positive behaviors, chances are they’re less likely going to be seeking attention from you for negative behaviors, right?

00:09:36:01 – 00:09:56:08
Dr Jenicka Engler
That’s the foundation you’re going to want to use that the most. Then the next level up from that is catching the positives. This is where praise and rewards can come in. So what we talked about on our last podcast with, you know, using process oriented praise for, you know, learning new things or difficult things you can even use, you know, rewards judiciously.

00:09:56:08 – 00:10:17:15
Dr Jenicka Engler
Of course. And then after that, the next trip is natural consequences, natural logical consequences. Out. We can’t go outside until you put your shoes on. You don’t want to put your shoes on. We can’t go outside. Natural consequences. And then at the very top of the pyramid, that’s where you’re going to find the timeout. Or for some folks, time ends right.

00:10:17:17 – 00:10:38:01
Dr Jenicka Engler
And so we have a lot less support for time ends. But the reason why I’m saying is, is that every child is different, and every situation is also different, because the function of behavior can change. Right. So there might be something that’s quote unquote attention seeking versus something they’re trying to get access to a tangible sort of thing.

00:10:38:01 – 00:10:57:03
Dr Jenicka Engler
And that’s the function of the behavior. Right. So you’re going to apply different sorts of techniques based upon what the current situation is and your knowledge of your child, because there are going to be some kids at timeouts would work really well for they’re going to be other kids through timeouts are not necessarily going to work for it’s not right.

00:10:57:05 – 00:11:12:22
Dr Jenicka Engler
You apply blindly. You have to sort of use it judiciously and to, you know, really, because the other thing here is that if you aren’t comfortable using them and you’re not able to be consistent, it’s going to backfire. It’s actually going to make things worse. So I would have gone in in that case, don’t use it. All right.

00:11:12:22 – 00:11:37:11
Dr Jenicka Engler
Another method. Right. So that like hierarchy of discipline methods, that’s the most important thing. Right. Because when you take timeouts out of the equation, it takes out an important part of the parenting toolkit for some families and parents, because there are some kids who really struggle to learn, you know, some of these basic self-regulatory processes as well as sort of behavior modification.

00:11:37:17 – 00:11:56:05
Dr Jenicka Engler
Without them, you know, especially neurodiverse kids, for example, wearing like these gentle parenting techniques do not work for a lot of neurodiverse kids, and they actually can make it worse for some of those folks. Yeah, no, there is no one size fits all approach to parenting. I think that’s what really ends up being ultimately missed in this conversation when you vilify this.

00:11:56:05 – 00:12:23:18
Dr Jenicka Engler
Because the other thing here is that almost every single evidence based parenting program includes timeout. So we’re talking triple P, parent child interaction therapy, the incredible years helping a non-compliant child parent management training Oregon model. Like all of these various evidence based approaches, they all have some component of timeout, but it’s also done in the proper way, which is a time and space for both parties.

00:12:23:18 – 00:12:40:14
Dr Jenicka Engler
Parent and child, to calm down. And that way you can actually reprogram the brain to be in a more optimal space for learning to happen, which is ultimately your goal with any form of discipline. You want them to learn from that experience and, you know, do things differently next time.

00:12:40:16 – 00:12:58:14
Dr. Mona
Yeah, we already touched upon the how parents have misinterpreted timeouts and how they’re be. I do see it being done largely incorrectly. I mean, when I talk to parents on what they’re doing with the timeout and we already mentioned, you know, like almost like threats and yelling and pulling the child into a timeout. I mean, I’ve heard it all.

00:12:58:14 – 00:13:09:00
Dr. Mona
I’ve seen it all. I’ve actually seen family members do things that I’m like, oh yeah, I totally am on board with a timeout. But that is not how we want to do it. Like, I’m literally like, oh my gosh, do I see some of it’s great.

00:13:09:02 – 00:13:10:21
Dr Jenicka Engler
Some of it’s terrible? Yeah, I.

00:13:10:21 – 00:13:16:17
Dr. Mona
Mean I have seen timeouts like you need, if you don’t finish your dinner you’re getting a timeout. If you I’m like, wait, that makes no sense. Like that.

00:13:16:23 – 00:13:23:17
Dr Jenicka Engler
Like it’s not great example of how to not use a timeout. Like it’s not appropriate to use a timeout.

00:13:23:19 – 00:13:41:01
Dr. Mona
So let’s talk about that because yeah I that is one example of I’ve seen and I’ve heard like if you don’t finish your meal you’re getting a timeout which is obviously not how timeouts work. So let’s talk about that because I think that’ll tie in a little bit of research too. But what is the best way. And maybe use one example and also as situations that you do not want to kind of use them.

00:13:41:01 – 00:14:02:10
Dr Jenicka Engler
And yeah, so I like to reserve timeouts for those situations where emotions are so heightened that you need to actually take a break to calm down, or if there’s a safety concern, right. So let’s say you have two siblings and one is hitting the other. You need to actually separate them. So you know, the child who’s doing the hitting in that case okay.

00:14:02:15 – 00:14:19:08
Dr Jenicka Engler
Your body seems a little out of control right now. We gotta go calm ourselves down. I understand you really wanted that toy, but you can’t hit your brother less, you know? Take a moment here to take a little break, and then we’ll talk after. Sometimes you. And again, I’m a bit overly verbal here with many aspects of timeout.

00:14:19:08 – 00:14:36:23
Dr Jenicka Engler
You do not want to be this overly verbal. You don’t want to over talking to death. And that’s actually another aspect of gentle parenting. Sometimes that definitely backfires. So like you sometimes, again, it depends on the child’s age, developmental level and why you’re putting them in timeout. Because if it’s for an attention seeking behavior, you obviously want to give, you know, less attention.

00:14:36:23 – 00:14:56:19
Dr Jenicka Engler
Like I’m hitting you in the face because we’re giving you a big responsive reaction. Okay. Sort of downplay you want to you know, be neutral. You want to be boring okay. Let’s go to timeout. You’re hitting. You’re a little out of control. It’s time our bodies will, you know, come back to when we’re calm. So the case where I would absolutely you know not want to see or like the big tantrums.

00:14:56:19 – 00:15:08:01
Dr Jenicka Engler
Right. Like those tantrums, those knock down, drag out tantrums where the child’s already gone over the cliff like you can’t breathe because once they’ve gone into full blown tender, you just got to ride the wave a lot of the times like that.

00:15:08:02 – 00:15:15:20
Dr. Mona
So much of this like and it’s like, yeah, I feel like, I mean, I think if everyone realizes it’s waiting it out and not joining the chaos because it’s literally.

00:15:15:20 – 00:15:37:19
Dr Jenicka Engler
Giving the time. Right. And then I’ve actually noticed with my own daughter as well that, you know, when she gets to a certain point, the best thing I can do is to be quiet and not don’t even realizing. Yeah, it breaks my heart because, I mean, this is already after I’ve validated her emotions, I guess, you know, sort of really tried to sort of join with her.

00:15:37:19 – 00:15:58:05
Dr Jenicka Engler
And it’s like, all right, well, I’ve done the bottom of my pyramid and I’m like, all right, now we’re going up to the next step. Which natural consequence right now is, I can’t even respond because I’m starting to get out of control. So I’m going to keep my mouth shut and I’m realizing I’m like, well, that’s actually best for her as well as sometimes to say less and to say no in some circumstances, because it can just sort of instigate it and make it worse.

00:15:58:09 – 00:16:16:10
Dr Jenicka Engler
So like, those are the sort of scenarios where, I mean, for my daughter in particular, it doesn’t last very long, but there are some toddlers which have us very long. They have a very hard time self-regulating. I mean, I’ve been working with my daughter on self-regulation since she was like a baby practically. So, you know, she is able to generally self-regulate pretty well.

00:16:16:11 – 00:16:36:04
Dr Jenicka Engler
But of course, companies have times when they can’t. Those are the times when you can use time out, because that’s actually some of the time where it’s going to be most beneficial. Because just like with adults, there are some kids who actually need space to calm down. Like there are adults who I want to talk it through right now and figure this out when they’re other adults.

00:16:36:04 – 00:16:52:18
Dr Jenicka Engler
And we’re like, okay, I really need some time for myself right now to process all this, and we’re going to come back and talk about. And kids can be the same way, right? Like some kids do not want you in their face trying to hug them, and they will actually try to push you away or hit you if you are in your face and trying to validate them and hug them.

00:16:52:18 – 00:17:01:21
Dr Jenicka Engler
Because that’s what some general parenting accounts are actually saying to do in these situations. And then like guys for some kids, that works. But for a lot of kids, that’s going to actually make it worse.

00:17:02:02 – 00:17:19:05
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And listen. So not even just some kids, it’s like some situations like you could have one kid and one time the verbalization works and I’ve been there. Right. My son’s three and we’ve had it where verbalization works. The other time, like you said, you’re just quiet. Or you say, hey, I’m here if you need me. Otherwise, take a moment and I’m here when you’re ready.

00:17:19:10 – 00:17:20:07
Dr. Mona
That’s like.

00:17:20:09 – 00:17:48:00
Dr Jenicka Engler
Yeah, that is the nuance that is getting in this conversation is even the same child in different situations. You have to apply different rules. Yeah, rules. And that’s why it’s so important not to take something that’s a really important. And useful tool for some families out of the toolkit and vilify it completely needlessly. Now, talking about those situations where I would not use timeout, I would never advocate for using timeout for things like you didn’t finish your dinner, you didn’t clean up your toys.

00:17:48:00 – 00:18:14:08
Dr Jenicka Engler
Yeah, you know, you didn’t brush your teeth. So if you come back to like thinking about the hierarchy, like natural consequence is right, like there’s no way to connect that behavior with the the discipline. Whereas when you’re using timeouts for self-regulation and calm down purposes, it actually is a natural consequence, right? I’m no troll. Therefore the natural consequence is I have to go to timeout.

00:18:14:11 – 00:18:32:08
Dr Jenicka Engler
I get to call my body down so I can’t. You know, talk or be around other states or when I’m this out of control. So it’s not only a timeout, but it’s also a natural consequence for those sort of situations. So that’s what I would sort of think about critically when you are, you know, thinking if you’re going to apply or not, I would not use it for noncompliance.

00:18:32:08 – 00:18:49:03
Dr Jenicka Engler
Like that’s not something I think is generally useful. So like if a kid is talking back to you or if they’re refusing to do something, I think there are other tools you can use first before resorting to timeout. And I would generally recommend that I recommend timeouts being used sparingly as needed, not excessively.

00:18:49:05 – 00:19:05:06
Dr. Mona
And in terms of location, I mean, there’s always some you know, that’s another thing that I see a lot of, oh gosh, Jennifer, I’ve seen it so much. So we do not want to put them in a dark room on their own where they can’t access light. We don’t want to put them outside in the cold, I’m telling you.

00:19:05:07 – 00:19:07:07
Dr Jenicka Engler
Oh my gosh. I’m like I’m.

00:19:07:10 – 00:19:11:00
Dr. Mona
Like, yeah. I’m like, hey, this is not so like, where is it?

00:19:11:02 – 00:19:29:23
Dr Jenicka Engler
Okay, so first things first. It has to be a safe space, right? You need to have a space. And also where a dysregulated kid it things can become projectiles very easily. Right. Like, you know, you don’t want to have things that are delicate or sharp or that are going to, you know, hurt them if they decide they want to keep them over or something.

00:19:29:23 – 00:19:48:06
Dr Jenicka Engler
Right. And I think the hard part here is also is what’s developmentally appropriate. So for a younger toddler, you’re not going to want to have them go upstairs to their room. But for a teenager that could be a timeout. You know, essentially for a tween that works pretty well. You know, go to your room, let’s calm down and then we’ll talk about it later, that sort of thing.

00:19:48:06 – 00:20:15:03
Dr Jenicka Engler
So the biggest thing I would say is that there are different sort of considerations. And so some people like to use like a calm down corner or some people will have like a calm down kit, some people will have a chair, you know, on the corner or a beanbag. And I definitely am a huge fan of using sort of sensory toys in timeout, as long as they’re not, like highly preferred meaning something that would essentially be a reward.

00:20:15:03 – 00:20:41:00
Dr Jenicka Engler
Yes. Right. Because if you’re noticing that, gosh, you know, they’re doing more stuff like throwing in the timeout more often, chances are whatever’s happening in timeout is reinforcing that. And that’s what is happening. We’re often right. So sort of boring quote unquote sensory stuff. So not stuff that’s like highly preferred or desired or super interesting. But you do have to have proximity and attention removed from the parent.

00:20:41:00 – 00:20:58:00
Dr Jenicka Engler
So there’s lots of different ways that that can be achieved. It depends also on your child because for some folks, putting them across the room where they’re, you know, placed in the corner or something that will work for others, it doesn’t actually work. And they need to be, you know, in the room right next to it or something.

00:20:58:00 – 00:21:15:04
Dr Jenicka Engler
But I always say, you know, safety first. Make sure that you know, your space is set up to do it. And also how you talk about that space is really important. Like don’t call it the naughty chair, don’t call it an upstairs. Just say this is your calm down space. Right. Just again this is not punitive. It’s not.

00:21:15:04 – 00:21:33:07
Dr Jenicka Engler
And you don’t want to do this in a shaming way. It’s really just to promote self-regulation when all else has failed. So there’s a little bit more leniency there. But the hard part again is that if you’re having to go in and give them attention, you know, to keep them in there and things like that, like that’s going to make it harder.

00:21:33:07 – 00:21:48:16
Dr Jenicka Engler
And obviously there’s a learning curve when you’re first sort of teaching them about time outs and things where that’s going to happen more often, but once they get it, they got it. But the other important part that folks sort of missed out on with this is that a lot of folks will say, oh, well, you set the timer for how many minutes for their age, and that’s actually incorrect.

00:21:48:16 – 00:22:01:09
Dr Jenicka Engler
So the biggest part about timeout is that the timeout ends when they’ve calmed down. And it sometimes can take longer, sometimes can take shorter. That’s really actually what the markers should be. Not like a set predetermined amount of time.

00:22:01:12 – 00:22:17:02
Dr. Mona
Well yeah. Because a time obviously then it’s like, well if they’re still upset after that 1 minute or 2 minutes of age, then of course you have to wait like so it’s like the time really doesn’t. Yeah, I agree with you. It doesn’t always work in the setting of you can’t time how long they’re going to be upset for exact.

00:22:17:02 – 00:22:19:17
Dr. Mona
Yeah. Like how long they’re going to be dysregulated. Yeah.

00:22:19:19 – 00:22:41:18
Dr Jenicka Engler
And like the other thing here is that a timeout should never be given sort of as a I’m angry and we’re just going to throw this out right. Like a timeout really needs to be taught and talked about before. So it’s something that you teach when they are calm like hey, you know I noticed earlier today this morning you were having a really tough time calming your body down.

00:22:41:20 – 00:23:02:01
Dr Jenicka Engler
You know, you threw yourself to the floor and were kicking and screaming for a while because, you know, your brother was playing with your favorite top in the future, if that happens and you’re having trouble calming your body like that, we’re going to do something called timeout, which is a space that you can use to calm your body down, to have the time and space you need, where you’re not going to hurt yourself or somebody else.

00:23:02:07 – 00:23:24:21
Dr Jenicka Engler
And it’s like sort of something like that where you’re teaching them what it is. Because I can’t think of anything more disorienting to a young child than being sort of put somewhere away from your parents with no explanation, no forewarning. Yeah, that’s the sort of thing where I’m like, that gives time outs a bad name, but that’s the sort of stuff that we want to dispel here is that if you do them properly, there’s not going to be harm.

00:23:24:23 – 00:23:51:00
Dr Jenicka Engler
Longitudinal studies have shown this like there are not going to, you know, cause harm. They’re not going to cause trauma. They’re not going to cause attachment issues. And I have all of this literature highlighted in my Instagram stories under timeouts, by the way. So it’s your listeners want to go in and they actually want to read, you know, snippets of the research on timeouts, which ironically, it has such a strong evidence base, it’s considered boring.

00:23:51:00 – 00:24:16:18
Dr Jenicka Engler
And a lot of research journals will no longer publish on timeouts, because it’s considered obvious at this point that its benefits outweigh the risks when done properly. It’s like not even really being researched as much anymore because it is so supported by, you know, decades and decades and hundreds and hundreds of studies at this point. But I do have a lot of the literature there for the folks who are concerned that it could cause some sort of harm.

00:24:16:20 – 00:24:40:04
Dr Jenicka Engler
So you guys can sort of read up on that there. And I think that’s really the biggest takeaway here is that, you know, making sure that you learn how to do it correctly. And I think changing the narrative about, timeouts, when you see that there being sort of a blanket statement is a bad thing, you know, saying, hey, this is an important tool for some parents.

00:24:40:04 – 00:24:56:00
Dr Jenicka Engler
Let’s not blame parents because all kids are different and one size fits all approaches don’t work. So instead of taking down folks who really rely on this and need this, kids benefit from this and making them feel like bad parents, you know, let’s all be a little bit more understanding.

00:24:56:02 – 00:25:03:16
Dr. Mona
Oh, I love it. That was actually a great final message, by the way. I love that how you wrap that up. Is there anything else you’d want to add for everyone listening today?

00:25:03:18 – 00:25:24:20
Dr Jenicka Engler
I think at the end of the day, it’s something is sounding like it doesn’t make a lot of sense to you. Like let’s say in this actually came up for one of like the largest parenting accounts the other day where they were actually advocating for the parent if the parent is feeling too dysregulated. And that’s, I think, another important part that I’ll come back to you after I finish this.

00:25:24:20 – 00:25:42:23
Dr Jenicka Engler
But if the parent was feeling too dysregulated to deal with their child in that moment, that they could take a short like couple minute break with time and space away from their kid. But this is also account who is very anti timeout and well wait whoa whoa whoa whoa. You’re saying on one hand you can do a timeout because the parent needs it, but it’s still the same thing.

00:25:42:23 – 00:26:02:14
Dr Jenicka Engler
You’re still resulting in the proximity of the parent, the attention to the parent being taken away from that child when they are dysregulated. And you’re saying that’s good and do that. But if the child’s dysregulated, you’re not allowed to do that and they’re still in the same end result, right? You’re still having the same consequence, which is the removal of attention and proximity to parent.

00:26:02:16 – 00:26:29:18
Dr Jenicka Engler
So if you’re seeing things that don’t make sense and make you go That’s you know typically something that I would say might not be you know based on any sort of actual evidence. Again, we don’t have any literature that supports saying that timeouts are ineffective or harm kids unless they’re done inappropriately, which you know, again, yeah, we talked about and I do want to say, you know, this doesn’t just apply for if your kid is distracted.

00:26:29:20 – 00:26:54:02
Dr Jenicka Engler
This also applies if you, as a parent are dysregulated. You’re just going to do it differently, right? You’re not going to put the kid in, you know, time out space. You might leave the room. And that’s the same sort of situation. Essentially. Right. So you’re still taking a timeout. It just is done a little bit differently. And it’s much more effective if you’re able to, you know, step in and regulate yourself and then come back to that situation.

00:26:54:04 – 00:27:16:23
Dr Jenicka Engler
Then you getting upset and sort of joining that. Yes. And then it’s just going to feed off of each other and make it worse. So, you know, at the end of the day, I always say look for the nuance, follow your gut. If something sounds off or you’re like, this doesn’t make sense, then chances are it’s probably being used to sell you something in a way that is not helpful.

00:27:16:23 – 00:27:35:03
Dr Jenicka Engler
So I always say buyer beware. Check. You know the credentials of the people who you are following who are making these recommendations. Check their motivations. Are they saying that, hey, this is a problem? Oh, hey, here’s a solution, but you have to pay me to get it. Chances are they’re, you know, sort of blowing smoke, you know, where.

00:27:35:03 – 00:27:58:07
Dr Jenicka Engler
So yeah, take that with a grain of salt, if you will. But check your followers and also the folks who are sort of better trained to have more nuance on these. And they’ll say something like, hey, timeouts are good to use if your family feels like you would benefit from it, or timeouts are good if they’re done properly and not in a shaming that.

00:27:58:07 – 00:28:15:22
Dr Jenicka Engler
Right. So like there’s that sort of balanced messaging I think is really what you want to look out for when you’re looking at some of these posts. And I think that’s what obviously is missing on a lot of these posts, but that’s sort of how you can sort of check out who should or should not be going to for some of this parenting information.

00:28:16:00 – 00:28:33:15
Dr. Mona
Jenica always a pleasure. I completely love talking to you. I agree with what you’re saying, and it’s so nice to kind of hash this out and, you know, just chat about debunking the the mystery and around timeouts and how it’s not all bad. And again, you have to do it the right way, which I love that we went over, where can people find you to stay connected.

00:28:33:17 – 00:28:59:04
Dr Jenicka Engler
Yes. So you can find me on both Instagram and YouTube at Doctor Jenica. So Dr. G and I c k and as I said, I have saved in my story highlights on Instagram, all of the research on timeouts. So if you want to learn more about what the science says about timeout, head there. And feel free to DM me if you have questions.

00:28:59:06 – 00:29:05:19
Dr. Mona
Thank you. So much for joining me. It’s always a pleasure and I feel like we could have a whole podcast, just me and you.

00:29:05:20 – 00:29:07:19
Dr Jenicka Engler
Yeah, totally. I’m in.

00:29:07:21 – 00:29:28:16
Dr. Mona
Thank you. Thank you again for everyone for joining and tuning in today. If you love this episode and learn something new and just feel like you have added something to your toolbelt, if you needed it in the way of timeouts, make sure you leave a review, call out Doctor Jenicka and say how useful her information was, because her information is always useful both here and on her Instagram channel, and I cannot wait to chat with another guest next week.

00:29:28:17 – 00:29:44:09
Dr. Mona
Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review. Share this episode with a friend. Share it on your social media. Make sure to follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram and subscribe to my YouTube channel, PedsDocTalk TV. We’ll talk to you soon.