As a board-certified pediatrician in the U.S., the recommendations are usually independent sleep for a baby. But I know firsthand that many families do co-sleep and, at some point, want to transition their baby out of co-sleeping. I welcome Ashley Olson, a certified pediatric sleep consultant and founder of @heavensentsleep.

 

We discuss:

• The biggest mistake parents make when going from co-sleeping to independent sleep
• What “habit-stacking” is and how to implement
• What parents may struggle with when transitioning to an independent sleep space and how to approach

 

Connect with Ashley on Instagram @heavensentsleep, and check out her website for more resources.

 

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on the PedsDocTalk Podcast Sponsors page of the website.

00;00;01;01 – 00;00;20;23
Ashley Olson
And we know that like abstinence only education for bed sharing or sleep training, like, it just it doesn’t work. It’s not effective. And so parents need to know that there are so many options out there available to them, and that they’re not always just stuck in one situation. Like things can be changed and you can move away from things.

00;00;20;23 – 00;00;26;24
Ashley Olson
You can move into new, you know, habits and situations and that whenever you choose to, whenever it’s not working for you anymore.

00;00;26;27 – 00;00;49;03
Dr. Mona
Hello and welcome to the show. Whether you’re driving, exercising, meal prepping, eating, or whatever it is you do while tuning in the podcast. Thank you! It means so much that you’re here today. This podcast is growing because of you and your reviews, so keep believing those reviews, updating them and sharing the show with any parents, grandparents, teachers, anybody who takes care of children.

00;00;49;05 – 00;01;13;06
Dr. Mona
I see it every week, but in the podcasting world, it’s all about word of mouth and rating or reviews. So don’t be shy and help me out so we can continue bringing you great guests and great conversations. Today’s guest is Ashley Olsen. She is a certified pediatric sleep consultant and supports parents on their sleep journey to help reclaim their nights and their sanity with a more balanced approach to sleep training.

00;01;13;13 – 00;01;22;04
Dr. Mona
And we’re talking about co-sleeping to independent sleep strategies for success. Thank you so much for joining me today, Ashley.

00;01;22;06 – 00;01;23;12
Ashley Olson
Thanks for having me.

00;01;23;15 – 00;01;41;19
Dr. Mona
Well, you know, some people may be surprised that as a board certified pediatrician in the United States, we, you know, get a lot of our recommendations from the AARP. People are surprised that I may be even mentioning Co-sleep ING, you know, what are the risks? And, you know, I’m not going to talk about co-sleeping in general on this episode.

00;01;41;21 – 00;02;03;23
Dr. Mona
But as a pediatrician, I know families do it. And that many families at some point, whether it’s in infancy or the toddler years or beyond, want to transition their child into an independent sleep space. So I’m just excited that we can have this open conversation for those families who may have made the choice, knowing benefits and risks of co-sleeping for them.

00;02;03;25 – 00;02;20;15
Dr. Mona
And now they’re like, you know what I want my bed back, or I want my child to sleep in their own sleep space, in their own room. So thank you again and introduce yourself for anyone who’s not familiar with who you are, and also why you became a pediatric sleep consultant.

00;02;20;18 – 00;02;42;18
Ashley Olson
Yes. Hey, so I started my business, a little over six years ago because my first child did not love sleep. I think a lot of sleep consultants start with that where they, you know, we’re in that same situation. You know, I thought for sure, like, he was not my child because I love sleep. My husband and I, like we are huge people.

00;02;42;18 – 00;03;12;29
Ashley Olson
And we thought he was switched at birth. We just didn’t know what we were doing at all. We had no foundations of sleep knowledge whatsoever. And the struggle and the effect that it had on my mental health, my husband’s mental health, like it just it rocked our world. And so I became really passionate about that after having our second child, because I just knew there was no way I could go through that amount of sleep loss again with a toddler, with another child.

00;03;12;29 – 00;03;37;02
Ashley Olson
It just it couldn’t work that way. And so, I really wanted to learn all that I could. And then I just started passing along that information and became really passionate about, supporting parents on that sleep journey. Now we have four kids and, you know, I’ve kind of been I feel like in every sleep situation we’ve swept and we’ve moved away from that.

00;03;37;02 – 00;03;55;28
Ashley Olson
And, you know, we’ve kind of just been in all these different situations that a lot of our parents are experiencing right now. And so, I just love being able to show them, like there’s this balance. It doesn’t have to be black and white and, you know, I like being able to provide that to people.

00;03;56;01 – 00;04;13;09
Dr. Mona
I love that. And the reason why I’m so happy to connect with you is that balanced approach. You know, it was really important to me to find a sleep consultant who may have, you know, I actually didn’t know that you post up, but find one who may have done a decision like co-sleeping, but also doesn’t shame other sides.

00;04;13;09 – 00;04;36;15
Dr. Mona
Right? I think sometimes in the sleep world, especially with the consultant world, we see some polarization. We see, well, you can’t do this. This is harmful. And I really know from my own personal experience, but also professional experience as a pediatrician that there really is no one size fits all. Like you said, it’s not black and white. And so thank you for being that voice of balance in this space.

00;04;36;20 – 00;05;04;13
Dr. Mona
I think it’s so needed so that parents don’t feel shamed. And that’s again why I’m even talking about co-sleeping for independent sleep, because I also feel like sometimes parents are shamed by their pediatrician. Right. They’re not forthcoming about the sleep situation. And I’m very aware of that. I’ve talked to so many of my followers about that, and I hope that this conversation not only encourages people to have more open discussions about their sleep concerns or their sleep arrangements, but also how to safely do it.

00;05;04;15 – 00;05;14;15
Dr. Mona
The options that are out there. And so thank you for being that light and that energy in that space, because sadly, it’s not always the case. And I don’t know if you feel the same way with what you see on social media.

00;05;14;15 – 00;05;36;29
Ashley Olson
Especially unfortunate. Yes. And we know that like abstinence only education for bed sharing or sleep training, like, it just it doesn’t work. It’s not effective. And so parents need to know that there are so many options out there available to them, and that they’re not always just stuck in one situation. Like things can be changed and you can move away from things.

00;05;36;29 – 00;05;43;02
Ashley Olson
You can move into new, you know, habits and situations and that whenever you choose to, whenever it’s not working for you anymore.

00;05;43;04 – 00;06;00;20
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And you know, I, I personally never bed shared. We did independently from the beginning and that’s only from my own personal things of what I’ve seen. I know that parents can do it if they understand the risks. And it’s, you know, that can reduce, obviously, any risk of suffocation. All of that. But for us it was a personal choice.

00;06;00;20 – 00;06;17;15
Dr. Mona
And like I said, even though it’s my choice, I don’t blame the other side that, oh well, you’re co-sleeping, you’re an awful parent and I expect the same from co-sleeping families for people who choose to move their child independently. And that’s not always the case, as you know. Right. There’s a lot of, well, you should do this. You’re a terrible parent.

00;06;17;15 – 00;06;35;07
Dr. Mona
It has to be that. So, you know, I love this perspective. I love learning about the fact that where you came from and why you became a consultant and kind of getting into this conversation. What do you think is the biggest struggle you’ve seen when families are co-sleeping but then want to move their child to an independent sleep space?

00;06;35;09 – 00;07;04;09
Ashley Olson
I think a lot of it comes down to, you know, they’re not wanting to use methods that are separation based, right? They’re not wanting to use Ferber, they’re not wanting to use extinction. But they think that, okay, we’ve made this decision to make changes that that’s like the secret to getting it to happen. But and then they’re expecting those same results that you would get from a faster method like Ferber or extinction.

00;07;04;09 – 00;07;23;26
Ashley Olson
And so I think managing expectations is really the hardest part of even my job. Whenever we are making those transition is because they think like, oh, I’ve hired you. So it’s going to be like quick and painless and it’s going to go really well and really smoothly. But it’s just you’re not working from the same place and you’re not using the same methods.

00;07;23;26 – 00;07;42;02
Ashley Olson
And so the process is different. Your experience is going to be different. Ultimately, like your results are probably going to end up close to being the same. But it’s just the journey to getting there is a lot different. And I think that’s where social media can sometimes do a disservice because you see, oh, well, you know, it worked in three nights or whatever.

00;07;42;02 – 00;07;49;15
Ashley Olson
And so they go into it thinking, okay, we can get it done and it’ll be easy. And it’s just not so much.

00;07;49;17 – 00;08;16;28
Dr. Mona
Oh yeah, I mean, I think this applies to all aspects. I mean, I think of potty training too, right? We hear that three day method potty training, three day method of for training. And I know that that is so powerful for families to hear because then like you said, when you hear three days and everyone’s telling you it’s three days, those unmet expectations make you feel like you’re a failure, when maybe you just need to continue the consistency, like you said, or manage the expectation that, okay, we’re going to try this.

00;08;16;28 – 00;08;32;03
Dr. Mona
If it doesn’t work like you said, what can we do differently? Do we need to do something differently? And so I think that’s a great approach. And so what would be in your opinion the first step to transitioning once they’ve kind of decided it’s something they’ve wanted to do and they’ve managed their expectations.

00;08;32;06 – 00;08;48;14
Ashley Olson
So I think it comes down to we got to start with how are you currently getting them to sleep? Because I feel like a lot of the the bed sharing comes from the fact that you can’t transfer a sleeping baby like that was always our struggle was we weren’t able to put them down asleep and then them stay asleep.

00;08;48;14 – 00;09;21;13
Ashley Olson
You know, you spend all this time getting them to sleep and then you go to transfer them and they wake up right away or they wake up, you know, 45 minutes later and you’re just like, I don’t have it in me to do this over and over and over all night long. And so if you are currently assisting your child to sleep, usually like rocking or feeding and trying to put them down and that’s not working, then we have to look at how else can we maybe support them to sleep and take that transfer aspect out of it, maybe so that you’re not fighting this battle all night long?

00;09;21;15 – 00;09;38;17
Ashley Olson
And so if maybe you’re sleeping with them and you’re cuddling them to sleep, you know, we maybe start to create some distance with that. Maybe we’re rubbing their back until they’re asleep or patting their bottom until they’re asleep. Kind of do some habit stacking, which you can do. So if you’re feeding them, you can add that in at the same time.

00;09;38;17 – 00;09;59;24
Ashley Olson
So then whenever you kind of take the feeding away, you have the other, you know, habit that we’ve created. And then it’s a little bit easier to then introduce a new sleeping space with that new habit of putting them to sleep. Maybe you can pass them to sleep in the crib again. Taking that transfer out of it is usually the missing piece of that puzzle that we have to, you know, figure out.

00;09;59;27 – 00;10;20;00
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And what we would say let’s do an example. So of course there’s many times that parents could decide maybe the baby’s an infant, maybe it’s a toddler, maybe it’s a preschooler. So let’s maybe do an example of an infant. So let’s use like a six month old. So a family wants to go from co-sleeping and they’re deciding that it’s time to move them out.

00;10;20;06 – 00;10;23;20
Dr. Mona
What would be kind of a rundown of what that might look like?

00;10;23;23 – 00;10;48;20
Ashley Olson
Yep. So, I would say to the majority of my family is are feeding the sleep. So they’re sidelining feeding in the bed. And they’re ready to, you know, get them out of their bed. But most of the time, those families are willing to take a slower approach. And so I will start by either having the non feeding parent take over at bedtime and getting them to sleep in a different way, or the feeding parent like it’s fine.

00;10;48;20 – 00;11;15;06
Ashley Olson
I breastfed all of my kids and my husband works overnight, so I had to do a lot of solo parenting. So, you know, you’re not limited by any means. And so I usually have them move the feeding further away from their bedtime so they’re not associating, you know, feeding the sleep anymore. And we start with rocking them to sleep or, reducing the motion to sleep, patting them to sleep, snuggling, then something like that where they’re in the bed.

00;11;15;06 – 00;11;38;29
Ashley Olson
And then each night after that, I try to get them to either, reduce how much they’re helping to sleep while they’re in their bed or, creating a new space for them, maybe, a pack and play or a crib close to the bed. And they’re doing the same thing, patting. Rubbing. Again, still doing lots of supporting to sleep because families aren’t really ready to, like, rip that Band-Aid off.

00;11;38;29 – 00;12;11;17
Ashley Olson
They’re not ready to do, you know, a separation based or not wanting a lot of crying, which generally, that means you’re trading tears for time. Someone having to invest a lot of time into it. And then again, we’re slowing down, so maybe we aren’t padding all the way to sleep, but we’re leaving a heavy hand on them until they fall asleep, and then we’re just gradually weaning and reducing those sleep props until we’re able to put them down, awake in their separate sleep space, and provide those supports to help them calm, but not all the way to sleep.

00;12;11;17 – 00;12;28;25
Ashley Olson
And then again, we eventually you do get to that point where there’s a separation, because the ultimate goal typically is parents want to be able to just like, let them down. Yes, I love you a good night. Leave the room, they fall asleep. You’re good. So again, like, it’s just taking those, sleep supports away very gradually.

00;12;28;25 – 00;12;30;00
Ashley Olson
Very slowly.

00;12;30;03 – 00;12;51;05
Dr. Mona
Now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors. Yeah. And do you find that it’s harder at a certain age from your clients, meaning doing this in the infant period versus doing this in the toddler period because of development? Do you see that these strategies, or the time that may be invested into it, could take longer or shorter.

00;12;51;07 – 00;13;12;11
Ashley Olson
And not specifically because I feel like it’s more pros and cons for each. Like with a younger baby, the habits are less instilled, but with a toddler, you can talk to them, you can press them, you can let them know that these changes are happening and you can set up things, that they, you know, some external rewards and stuff to help make them a part of the process, too.

00;13;12;11 – 00;13;19;14
Ashley Olson
So I think like, it can go either way. Really. Just depending on how you’re going about the process.

00;13;19;16 – 00;13;43;17
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And you brought up, you know, the personal experience of the fact that you had a partner who was working a lot of evenings. And so because of that experience, you understand the nuance of the situation. And just a side note, and that’s why I love finding balance sleep consultants, because no one situations the same, right? We have so many variables the temperament of the child, the sleeping arrangements of the house, you know, where is everyone sleeping?

00;13;43;22 – 00;14;01;25
Dr. Mona
Is there another partner available? Are you breastfeeding? Are you pumping? There’s so many little things. And so, you know, even on my platform, even though I talk about sleep, I’ll get families messaging me like, hey, what do I do about this? And I’m like, it’s not a quick answer, right? It’s as you know, it’s time. It’s what’s going on and then environment.

00;14;01;28 – 00;14;29;02
Dr. Mona
And so again, I’m happy that you’re on to really reiterate that, that the reason why it’s no one size fits all is that everyone’s personal living situation, temperament of the parent of the child is so different. And, you know, you’re bringing up a lot of the sort of gradual changes and I love what you mentioned earlier about how, you know, the Ferber method, for example, is a quicker quote unquote version, than doing a more gradual version, not harmful, not bad.

00;14;29;08 – 00;14;44;28
Dr. Mona
But it’s really about what is that family comfortable with? And I, I also find that families who tend to have been more co-sleeping or more closed have a harder time with Ferber because it’s harder for them to hear. We did Ferber for both of our children and we love it. It worked really great for both of our kids.

00;14;45;04 – 00;15;05;17
Dr. Mona
Surprisingly, I didn’t think it would work for our daughter because she was, a very needy, high needs, you know, cuddling baby. But it worked in smaller increments than it did for our son. But I think you know, the message I want people to hear so far halfway through this episode is you got to make sure that you understand that there’s no one size, like Ashlee said.

00;15;05;17 – 00;15;37;13
Dr. Mona
And to really consider working with a sleep consultant, if your pediatrician doesn’t have the knowledge to get that sort of whole big picture of what’s happening in the household. And I also appreciate you talking about the differences, because I agree, I think in infancy it could be easier in a way like that. Okay, maybe they’re not as aware of the fact that, you know, you left the room before separation anxiety hits, but then the toddler years, especially your older toddler, you know, there is a lot of benefit in being able to explain boundaries and what’s happening.

00;15;37;13 – 00;15;41;01
Dr. Mona
And so you’re right that there’s pros and cons for each phase.

00;15;41;03 – 00;16;03;23
Ashley Olson
Yes. Yeah. And I think it can do a disservice almost to families to be like, here’s a quick fix or like a quick tip because it’s not going to work for every family. And I hate for it to fail and then think that, well, our case just can’t be helped, you know? And I just want I just want parents to know, like, there’s no place where you’re so far gone that you can’t change something.

00;16;03;23 – 00;16;21;28
Ashley Olson
You can’t make progress in some way, shape or form. And again, like, it really boils down to what does that look like to you? What what goals are you trying to reach? Because, you know, whenever you ask about like success rates and things like that, it just I can’t give you that because every family that I work with has different goals and different things that they want to reach.

00;16;21;28 – 00;16;26;10
Ashley Olson
And so what their success look like isn’t going to look like yours.

00;16;26;13 – 00;16;50;20
Dr. Mona
I love that it’s so true. And it can cause so much stress when you’re again, getting on social like we mentioned, the comparison, the expectation. And so that can be really, really frustrating. And so we talked about I love the example you mentioned a little bit about the infant. What about a toddler. And we can go to more like maybe an older toddler preschooler that may have some more understanding of boundaries and, you know, receptive to that.

00;16;50;22 – 00;17;13;11
Ashley Olson
Yeah. I mean, the bedtime pass is a really great evidence based option for toddlers where, you know, you’re prepping them and you’re talking to them about how we’re going to move you out of our room into your room. Or maybe you’re putting them in a separate bed in their in your room first. Just to kind of have some middle ground there and not make a huge change all at once for getting them used to not sleeping beside somebody.

00;17;13;14 – 00;17;35;13
Ashley Olson
And then also just leaving that little old special bed in your room for those little midnight wake ups initially, you know, is another great tool to have just as a fallback. But I like to use a bedtime pass because it gives them some control, some independence. Like you can use this if you want to, like, it’ll get you another snuggle or, you know, another drink of water or whatever.

00;17;35;13 – 00;17;55;07
Ashley Olson
And so giving them some ownership of, like, what do I get out of bed for? What do I not get out of bed for? I think that’s a really great tool to introduce to your older toddlers. But then after that, I like to use a toddler fuzzy hearts method. And so with that, so you with your kid, like you’re cutting out these hearts, you can do construction paper or fabric or whatever.

00;17;55;07 – 00;18;11;09
Ashley Olson
So you’re getting some bonding time in which, you know, really want to fill that cup up. So that they’re not seeking that out overnight all the time. So you’re doing this task with your kids and you’re going to tell them, okay, like we’re putting in bed, here’s a heart like, this is mommy’s heart. I love you and you know that.

00;18;11;09 – 00;18;26;02
Ashley Olson
Like it’s a physical, tangible thing. And you say, okay, I’m going to go and I better do the dishes really quick them and come back and I’m going to give you a heart and you’re, you’re going to stay in bed and you’re going to get this heart. And it’s another way to reinforce the behavior that we’re wanting to see.

00;18;26;09 – 00;18;46;14
Ashley Olson
And you’re giving them something that they can physically see, like it’s not this made up thing that they’re having to understand. And so every so often, very quickly, you know, initially going back in and giving them these hearts, I mean, you may have hundreds of hearts, right? And, then like once they fall asleep, you just like, leave a bunch of hearts with them.

00;18;46;14 – 00;19;02;28
Ashley Olson
So if they wake up, they’re like, oh, they were here. They checked on me. I knew they were there, all these things. And then you can say that, all right. Like you can spend a little bit more time out of the room, less hearts, that kind of stuff. And it’s just a very easy way to move them into that separation, but also reinforcing, like, we’re here, we love you.

00;19;02;29 – 00;19;17;03
Ashley Olson
You’re not alone. It’s just it’s sleep time, right? And I feel like that can help bridge like the separation anxiety that they may have or, you know, any fears that they may have or just kind of help fill that gap a little bit.

00;19;17;06 – 00;19;38;22
Dr. Mona
Yeah. I love those strategies. And they’re so developmentally appropriate and can provide a little bit more of that balance and compassion. And I think, like you said, we you know, sometimes parents will read one resource and not read all their options and feel like they have to leave their child. And I don’t mind Ferber, for instance, because from a developmental perspective, like you check in, you come back, you check in.

00;19;38;22 – 00;19;59;19
Dr. Mona
I think it works. But for your older toddler and preschooler, I definitely like more of these methods. I mean, I talk about that in my own resources just because of understanding their development, their awareness, the fact that they’re, you know, could be more trying. And if you don’t want that. So I think it’s so nice that you are looking at the development as well as, you know, the strategies and how that can be incorporated.

00;19;59;21 – 00;20;16;13
Dr. Mona
In your opinion. This is just a side note because I love asking like my sleep consultants that come on, do you feel like the terminology out there? And you kind of alluded to this already that there are good sleepers and bad sleepers. Do you feel that that’s true, or do you feel like there’s a little more nuance to that?

00;20;16;15 – 00;20;41;06
Ashley Olson
Oh, definitely. So much nuance to that. And yeah, yeah. And I think like the, the label of good and bad like it just it really needs to change to like flexible or maybe lower sleep needs because these are the kids that are harder to figure out because they’re not following the norms and the averages. And the struggle comes for those kids that don’t need as much sleep.

00;20;41;06 – 00;20;57;27
Ashley Olson
You’re asking for more than they can give you. They’re not tired. They’re going to fight more. You’re going to have more battles. And so it’s really honing into those specific that you give you the tools to help your own child versus trying to fit them into this mold that they’re just not made for.

00;20;58;05 – 00;21;13;28
Dr. Mona
Yeah, I completely agree. I think that terminology should change. And I love the low needs. High needs. I just think it is more sensitive rather than bad and good, you know, and yeah, you know, from a medical perspective, I always like to pitch this in all my sleep episodes. We always want to make sure that it’s something medical.

00;21;13;28 – 00;21;33;09
Dr. Mona
Right. So sleep apnea, mouth breathing, which I’m sure you all go through. And then if that’s the case, then, of course, kind of digging more into what is the routine, what is going on in terms of sleep associations, in terms of, you know, do they need to be rocked to sleep? And also, again, like you said, normalizing that none of this is bad or good.

00;21;33;09 – 00;21;49;25
Dr. Mona
Like I think, again, we tend to hear, well, you know, nursing to sleep is a bad habit or feeding to sleep. I also breastfed my younger daughter and we may not have nurse because I’m exclusive pumper, but I feed her to bed like right before she goes to bed. She gets a bottle and I talk to her and then she goes to bed.

00;21;49;25 – 00;22;11;28
Dr. Mona
So similar to nursing to bed, it’s not a bad habit if we’re creating an ability for that child to understand that, okay, feeding happened and now we are going to bed and it’s an independent thing and I can sleep on my own. And so it’s really blocking out that noise, understanding that kids are different, but also, like you said, high needs or low needs, respecting that and working with that child.

00;22;11;28 – 00;22;29;04
Dr. Mona
And you know, you mentioned this earlier, I feel like parents, when they get that high needs child or that child who quote is a bad sleeper, they just kind of chalk it up to that’s what it is and there’s no solution. And you mentioned that. And I think people I really want people to understand that there are options.

00;22;29;04 – 00;22;56;27
Dr. Mona
I’m not saying that it’s going to take a week to fix, but there’s solutions to mostly everything in parenting, whether it’s going to take four days, two weeks, a month. I know this because of everything I see, especially with sleep and potty training and all of that. And so your work again, is important to kind of provide that reassurance and manage those expectations of, I know you want this goal, but let’s see how we can reach it for your child and whether their high needs sleep needs.

00;22;56;29 – 00;23;17;25
Ashley Olson
Yes, absolutely. And I you know, again, speaking from personal experience, like we were just on vacation with our family and we had a room share with a couple of our children, and my daughter actually got her first set of stitches on this vacation. And so she was a little traumatized from that whole situation. And so she slept in our room the most.

00;23;17;25 – 00;23;32;27
Ashley Olson
And then she wanted to be close to us, and she would crawl into our bed in the early morning hours. And she is a little bit more sensitive to those things. And so we knew when we got home like this would be something that we would have to work on. And so we knew that going into it, we managed our expectations.

00;23;32;29 – 00;23;49;19
Ashley Olson
The first night was not a big deal because she was so tired from traveling. But then the next night she was like, I don’t want to be alone. And so, you know, we were able to snuggle her, to sleep in her room. And then she came to our bed later. And then the next night I was like, here, snuggle something at mommy so that you can wake up and you feel safe and you know, I’m there.

00;23;49;24 – 00;24;02;00
Ashley Olson
And then she does that at bedtime, so we didn’t have to fall asleep with her. But then she, still came to our bed in the middle of the night and I did not have it in Muted just like, take her back. But now all you know and now and we talk about it with her during the day.

00;24;02;00 – 00;24;19;08
Ashley Olson
Like she knows like tonight’s the last night. You’re gonna spend the whole night in her bed tomorrow night. Like all these things that. You mean, she’s sick. So we can talk to her about these things that we understood what she went through, the circumstances, being out of routine, not being at home. And we knew that when we came home, this was something that we were going to have to address.

00;24;19;08 – 00;24;41;18
Ashley Olson
And I think that’s the biggest thing that parents have to do is understand all of that stuff, the external stuff, and managing your expectations and knowing that it’s something that you have to, you know, work on whenever you get home. If it’s not something that you want to sustain, and just putting in a little bit of the work and the effort to get there because, you know, sometimes it’s not just like a quick and easy like help or back home or good.

00;24;41;20 – 00;24;47;10
Ashley Olson
Yeah, no big deal. And understanding each individual kid is going to handle those transitions differently.

00;24;47;13 – 00;25;02;04
Dr. Mona
Oh, yeah. Once Ryan turned two, there was no ability for him to stay in an independent sleep space on vacation. So he was in our bed as well. And actually he would sleep with my husband, and then I would sleep separately because of just the fear in a room that had, or in a place that had multiple rooms.

00;25;02;06 – 00;25;26;14
Dr. Mona
But I love that because, like you said, it’s the flexibility. It’s understanding that just because you did one thing, it may have to evolve when you are in a different situation, especially as we know for a child in an unfamiliar sleep environment, like a hotel or an Airbnb. And, you know, I, I bring the example of my daughter Viera, when she was four and a half months old, she got Covid and it was a illness that was pretty annoying for her, and that was her first illness.

00;25;26;14 – 00;25;47;27
Dr. Mona
So she had already been independent, sleeping, but she regressed and I not in a bad way. It was. Obviously when you’re sick, you need more. And so my husband put up with her and I told him I’m like, look, I have personal feelings about this because I just have what I’ve been trained and I want to undo that so that I can help more families to better safely approach co-sleeping.

00;25;48;03 – 00;26;07;08
Dr. Mona
But he, you know, he moved the pillows. He slept alone with her. You know, he’s not a deep sleeper where he’s going to roll on her. And he made sure that they could sleep and she got better sleep. Rather we tried we tried putting her into independency space, but it just wasn’t working. And I share that story on an episode about co-sleeping to independent sleep.

00;26;07;10 – 00;26;31;07
Dr. Mona
So just normalize that. Even me, as a board certified pediatrician who follows AP recommendations, I know the benefits and risks of all of this, but I also recognize that we are humans and parents need to do what they need to do. And so your example and mine, I think, will hopefully provide some insight and lightness to people when they’re deciding, you know, wow, I just won’t sleep or this is just a one off.

00;26;31;07 – 00;26;51;23
Dr. Mona
What do I do? Like I can’t just have this baby cry for an hour in the crib when they’re congested. You know, my daughter, I wouldn’t let that happen. So I like hearing your personal stories too. Especially, being a professional, because I think it adds way more relatability. So people understand that that one size fits all doesn’t happen for anyone, including ourselves.

00;26;51;25 – 00;26;55;12
Dr. Mona
Now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors.

00;26;55;14 – 00;27;13;09
Ashley Olson
Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I get so many families who are like, I can’t do rigid, right? Like I need we need to have that flexibility. And I don’t want to give up all of our contact naps. And I don’t want to give up being able to baby wear on the go and, naps on the go and all that stuff.

00;27;13;09 – 00;27;35;27
Ashley Olson
And I don’t want you to like, I want you to be able to practice sleep and a lot of different ways, because that’s life. Like, you’re just you’re not going to be home 24 seven. And it’s much easier if you can get sleep to happen on the go in different ways, because then you can live life a little bit more, you know, freely without having to also stress about when are they going to nap?

00;27;35;27 – 00;27;58;21
Ashley Olson
Where are they in a nap? All these things. I mean, like I said, we have four kids, like being home all the time is not going to happen. And being able to maintain our baby wearing naps, helps us to enjoy our vacations and things like that. Just because we’re not strapped to a nap time where we’ve got it, you know, get them down and get back to our room and all that good stuff.

00;27;58;23 – 00;28;11;19
Dr. Mona
Oh, I love that. This is such a great conversation. I have, you know, a few more questions. What would you say is the biggest mistake parents make during the process that you wish they would know?

00;28;11;22 – 00;28;37;02
Ashley Olson
Don’t give up. They give up so quickly whenever it feels like it’s not working. And obviously not working depends on a lot of different factors and what that looks like is going to be different for every family. But you know, I just when you’re taking things more slowly and you’re not making changes really fast, you can expect really fast progress either.

00;28;37;02 – 00;29;01;19
Ashley Olson
And so know that the work that you’re putting in is beneficial, even if it isn’t giving you a reward right away. You know, when you’re when you’re building a foundation, you know, it has to build it literally has to build on itself. And so, you know, if you quit after one night or two nights, you just you never get past the hard and you never start to see the results of the work that you’re putting in.

00;29;01;19 – 00;29;15;07
Ashley Olson
And so, you know, obviously, if you’ve stuck with it and it isn’t working or get some help, like ask somebody, try something new, but don’t quit before you really give it a chance to to see the payoff.

00;29;15;10 – 00;29;26;00
Dr. Mona
And would you say that that’s the biggest frustration of parents when they start working with you, is that they what we talked about the beginning with those expectations and them wanting to work, have it work faster or better in any way?

00;29;26;03 – 00;29;45;27
Ashley Olson
Yes, absolutely. And I love talking about that with parents because I’m like, let’s revisit. Like this is what we started with. What has changed? You know, because things do adapt as we go along like nothing is set in stone. And so I want to support you, and I’m willing to give you pros and cons like, if this is what you choose, this is what we might expect.

00;29;45;27 – 00;30;03;29
Ashley Olson
And if it’s different, we can pivot again, you know, and it’s just every day I think that’s the point of working one on one with somebody is that you have that touchpoint and that support through every single sleep. And we’re able to see, like, is this working? Is it not working? What are our options for moving forward? What can we change you know, and what needs to stay the same?

00;30;03;29 – 00;30;13;23
Ashley Olson
Is it really not working or are we just not giving it enough time and it’s just working through that with families every single day, to keep them moving towards their goals?

00;30;13;26 – 00;30;32;21
Dr. Mona
Well, actually, this is my first time connecting with you and talking with you. For anyone who’s not familiar, I post it on my stories and I’m looking for someone in the sleep space who is understanding of the co-sleeping to independent sleep, mentality and how we can get that done. But who also doesn’t shame other people and other sides?

00;30;32;21 – 00;31;01;04
Dr. Mona
And I feel truly just by speaking to you, I feel this sort of connection and this sort of relatability and that you have this balanced approach. So from a pediatrician who talks to so many families about social media and sleep advice on social, and also just the frustration they have with conflicting advice, I really just want to thank you for not only coming on the show, but for really being that balanced perspective that I really do feel that you have after speaking with you.

00;31;01;07 – 00;31;08;16
Ashley Olson
Thank you. Yes, that has been my life’s goal. Like I just I always see the gray and I’m so glad that I can convey that.

00;31;08;19 – 00;31;25;02
Dr. Mona
Same with me, you know. And you know, we mentioned this already when we talked about this three day method and the expectations. And, you know, I recently had a conversation with one of my friends who’s dealing with behavioral concerns with her daughter. You know, we went through a whole intake like, she’s my friend. So I talk to her like how I do all my consoles, but I’m like, hey, what’s going on?

00;31;25;02 – 00;31;40;04
Dr. Mona
What do we need to do? And then I said to her, I’m like, let’s manage those expectations. I need you to remember that this is not going to change tomorrow. It may not change in two weeks, but we’ll be consistent. And like you said, check in with me in a week and a half. I want to see what’s change, what’s not, what’s gotten worse.

00;31;40;04 – 00;31;58;09
Dr. Mona
And that is so key. Whenever you’re meeting with a consultant of any kind, whether it’s sleep, potty training, behavior development, we need to know the follow up. And it sounds like you, you know, are really involved with those families to really get to the bottom of the core issue here so that people can get the sleep that they want.

00;31;58;11 – 00;32;04;26
Dr. Mona
Right? It’s all about a personal family sleeping choice. And so thank you for sharing all this information today.

00;32;04;28 – 00;32;06;11
Ashley Olson
Yes. My pleasure.

00;32;06;13 – 00;32;11;24
Dr. Mona
And where can people go to stay connected and also find more information about your resources?

00;32;11;26 – 00;32;26;03
Ashley Olson
Yep. I am very active on Instagram so you can find me at Heaven sent sleep there. My website also has lots of information. My blog we blog every week, if not multiple times a week, so there’s lots of resources there as well. Heaven sent sleep.com.

00;32;26;06 – 00;32;43;03
Dr. Mona
Wonderful, and I’ll be linking all of that to our show notes, as well as making sure that you, have access to her social media channel. Because, again, I want people to have more balanced resources in the sleep space. And if you love this conversation, which I hope you did because I also did. I love talking about sleep.

00;32;43;03 – 00;33;00;10
Dr. Mona
I love sharing this perspective with other people in the sleep space. Make sure you leave a review or a rating and also share it on social media and tag you talk, talk tag heaven send sleep. So we know you love this conversation. And I have a feeling that Ashley is going to be on my podcast again in the future.

00;33;00;10 – 00;33;01;20
Dr. Mona
So thanks again, Ashley.

00;33;01;22 – 00;33;02;08
Ashley Olson
Thank you.