Independent sleep? Co-sleeping? Parental assistance with sleep? There are a lot of opinions all over the place. On this episode, I welcome Dr Shelby Harris, a licensed clinical psychologist who is board certified and specializing in behavioral sleep medicine to discuss if there is an age where a child needs to be taught independent sleep if they haven’t learned it on their own.

We discuss:

• The age or signs that independent sleep skills need to be taught
• Common concerns for an older child who isn’t able to fall asleep or connect sleep cycles on their own
• Where to begin with approaching independent sleep skills with a child who hasn’t

Find out more about Dr. Shelby Harris and her book “The Women’s Guide to Overcoming Insomnia” at drshelbyharris.com or connect on Instagram or TikTok @SleepDocShelby

00:00:01:01 – 00:00:19:13

Dr Shelby Harris 

The way I always think about independent sleep and how people and families choose to sleep is really like, I’m not one like people ask me all the time. I think like friends and they want me to give advice. I don’t give advice unless it’s not working for you and your family. So you find something that works for you, your family, your kid.

 

00:00:19:13 – 00:00:43:06

Dr Shelby Harris 

As long as it is safe, that’s the key, right? So we always want to do that. But the issue becomes if you are co-sleeping, for example, or conversely, you know, you always have to be at your child’s bedside for them to fall asleep or in awakenings in the middle of the night. Usually what we see in research is after a while, a people will often say, well, my kid will not grow and it’ll be fine.

 

00:00:43:10 – 00:00:51:16

Dr Shelby Harris 

But we usually see as they don’t have growing you. Sleep onset and sleep associations that happen are very, very strong.

 

00:00:51:18 – 00:01:13:23

Dr. Mona

Welcome back to the PedsDocTalk Podcast, a top 50 parenting podcast in the United States. Thanks to you and your reviews that helps you guide you on your parenting journey. I get to chat with the most incredible people in the field of child health, development and parenting, and the guest I have today is a favorite on social media, not only for my child, but also for myself.

 

00:01:14:04 – 00:01:28:23

Dr. Mona

Her name is Doctor Shelby Harris. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist, board certified, and specializing in behavioral sleep medicine. And who doesn’t love sleep? Thank you so much for joining me today, Doctor Shelby.

 

00:01:29:00 – 00:01:32:16

Dr Shelby Harris 

Thank you for having me. I am so excited to be here. Thanks again.

 

00:01:32:21 – 00:01:53:10

Dr. Mona

Yeah, I’m just excited to connect with you, mainly because, like I just mentioned, thanks to social media, especially Instagram, I am able to get connected with some amazing people. And, you know, a lot of the times, a lot of the information out there, I’m like, oh, I know this already. Like, this is something I do already. But your niche and how you approach sleep, especially for me as a mom, has been so helpful.

 

00:01:53:10 – 00:02:14:10

Dr. Mona

And I know you don’t only, you know, work with mothers, you work with families and helping with sleep and kind of debunking a lot of myths and misinformation out there. But so grateful to have you on your content is so wonderful. And I also love all the media work that you do. So tell everyone a little bit more about yourself if they’re not familiar with who you are.

 

00:02:14:12 – 00:02:33:15

Dr Shelby Harris 

So I am a clinical psychologist by training, and that’s what I do a lot of. But I have a special team board certification and behavioral sleep medicine. So for a long time, well over a ten almost 15 years, I ran the behavioral sleep medicine clinic at a sleep center, a pretty prominent sleep center here in New York City.

 

00:02:33:20 – 00:02:54:11

Dr Shelby Harris 

And I worked with babies through older adults where I worked with the MDS. I’m a P inside a PhD myself, and we work to try and help people sleep better, ideally without medication. So I love working with babies. Older adults, all ages, women a lot of times. And you know, my mission is to really have the family sleep well.

 

00:02:54:11 – 00:03:00:22

Dr Shelby Harris 

So I have a private practice now just outside of New York City, and I see people from all over using telehealth. It’s really wonderful.

 

00:03:01:00 – 00:03:20:07

Dr. Mona

Oh, awesome. And like I said, the being able to have that experience with babies and toddlers and teenagers and adults, I mean, again, I mentioned this at the beginning. Sleep is to me one of the most important things, if not the foundation of everything that we do. So if sleep is affected mood, behavior, we know this for children as well.

 

00:03:20:09 – 00:03:43:00

Dr. Mona

And the conversation we’re having today has to do with independent sleep. So we know that there is a big push on either side. There’s a push on, you know, for parents to feel this expectation or urge that their infant needs to sleep independently. And if they don’t, they’re never going to sleep independently. And then you have the other spectrum that’s like, no, no, no, like bed share.

 

00:03:43:00 – 00:04:06:05

Dr. Mona

And your child doesn’t need to sleep independently and you should guide them the entire time. So I kind of want to talk about this middle ground of when you know, in your experience and your training, would you say that a non independent sleeping child, there’s a potential that they’re not going to outgrow this on their own and they may need parental guidance and parental support to be able to independent sleep.

 

00:04:06:05 – 00:04:12:04

Dr. Mona

And y independent sleep at some age becomes important. Or if it becomes important.

 

00:04:12:06 – 00:04:33:23

Dr Shelby Harris 

Yeah, I mean, it’s a very loaded subject, rife with lots of emotions, understandably attached to it. The way I always think about independent sleep and how people and families choose to sleep is really like, I’m not one like people ask me all the time, I opinion like friends and they want me to give advice. I don’t give advice unless it’s not working for you and your family.

 

00:04:34:01 – 00:04:54:17

Dr Shelby Harris 

So you find something that works for you, your family, your kid. As long as it is safe, that’s the key, right? So we always want to do that. But the issue becomes if you are co-sleeping, for example, or conversely, you know, you always have to be at your child’s bedside for them to fall asleep or in awakenings in the middle of the night.

 

00:04:54:19 – 00:05:16:20

Dr Shelby Harris 

Usually what we see in research is after a while, people often say, well, my kid will not grow and you’ll be fine. But we usually see as they don’t hear from the sleep onset. And sleep associations that happen are very, very strong. And it’s the sort of thing where if you just keep ignoring it year after year, it’s going to become an issue at some point.

 

00:05:16:20 – 00:05:20:06

Dr Shelby Harris 

And the question is when does it issue like we were talking about? Yeah.

 

00:05:20:08 – 00:05:37:19

Dr. Mona

I love that because that is exactly it. Because I like to be honest about how I educate sleep. I don’t push it so early. I know that babies can do it early if the right temperaments their parental decision. Like you said, I’m not the type to say everyone needs to sleep. Train your child going to be attached to you forever.

 

00:05:37:19 – 00:05:57:06

Dr. Mona

But I do encourage independent sleep teaching by one year. And also it’s for me, it’s because we can set a foundation. Doesn’t mean that your child won’t ever need you. It doesn’t mean that you’re closing the door and not approaching them. But it is a skill, if you’ll say, and it actually can benefit the entire family. So that is my perspective.

 

00:05:57:11 – 00:06:11:18

Dr. Mona

But I obviously want to hear from a science backed or clinician backed kind of guidance on when is that age that we have to set that foundation or say, hey guys, I know you love this. So great for everybody, but let’s start giving those skills to that child.

 

00:06:11:20 – 00:06:33:20

Dr Shelby Harris 

There’s really no set time to do it. Honestly. It just in my opinion, if your goal is to be able to have your child be able to sleep without needing to be there or some sort of association being there, the earlier you do, it doesn’t have to be three months, months. I mean, there are some practices here in Manhattan that push two months, and I’m just like, that’s just too early in my opinion.

 

00:06:33:20 – 00:06:49:19

Dr Shelby Harris 

Like, you don’t have to do it, but it becomes harder the older your child gets. So if your child is now out of a crib, guess what’s going to start happening? Your child’s going to come running into your room. When they start having a lot more language. They’re going to be really manipulative and it can pull out people’s heartstrings.

 

00:06:49:23 – 00:07:04:13

Dr Shelby Harris 

So if your goal is to do it, and then we can talk about when it can become really an issue for a lot of families if your goal is to really do it. But I encourage people to do it before a year, or at least before they’re out of a crib, because it just make it easier to be able to do that.

 

00:07:04:13 – 00:07:15:22

Dr Shelby Harris 

You’re not gonna have to run them back constantly. And you know that, mommy, I need this, I need that it just, you know, or whoever it becomes a lot more challenging. So earlier is better than later.

 

00:07:16:00 – 00:07:37:16

Dr. Mona

I agree, I such it like you said, there’s so much feelings, deep feelings on all of this. And it almost feels like I know we’re we’re both on the similar page, in terms of teaching the skills. And so people listening could be like, well, I want to hear the alternative perspective, but I do want to be transparent that, yeah, we we are agreeing on this and that you are teaching this amazing thing that is possible.

 

00:07:37:16 – 00:08:00:23

Dr. Mona

I think there is a misconception that a child under one cannot be taught these skills. And when I say skills is what you just mentioned, removing sleep associations and it doesn’t have to be this wham bam, like Doctor Shelby said that at two months you remove everything and there’s no cuddling, there’s nothing. It can be gradual. It can be, you know, your child needed more rocking and now we’re going to phase out that rocking.

 

00:08:00:23 – 00:08:28:04

Dr. Mona

It doesn’t mean that your child will not need you. And I use my example I have two different sleepers, one independent from the beginning. Like didn’t need rocking. I was like, wow, I hit the jackpot. I was like, sleep is easy with my son, my daughter, oh my goodness. She needed so much contact, so much rocking. To a point where one night when she was six weeks old, I was sitting at the corner of the bed in tears thinking, she’s never going to be able to do this on her own.

 

00:08:28:04 – 00:08:48:08

Dr. Mona

And my husband walked in and he was like, Mona, you know this more than anybody. Every kid is different. We have a kid who needs a little bit more of us. You know this, I know this. She’s gonna sleep. It’s going to happen. And you know what to do. And lo and behold, now she’s this independent, quote unquote sleeper who still loves the occasional contact nap, who still needs us.

 

00:08:48:08 – 00:09:06:09

Dr. Mona

So really normalizing that the kids are different. But you can teach different temperament, children how to do this. But you might need different strategies. You might need to manage expectations, but your kids are going to feel loved. They’re going to still need you. All of that is still going to be there. And I’m almost proud of my kids.

 

00:09:06:09 – 00:09:29:13

Dr. Mona

You know, like I look at them and I’m like, they need mommy and daddy. But they also just get it that okay, it’s bedtime. Like, yeah, it’s an important boundary in our house. Like, because I want to sleep, but also I want my son to sleep. He’s three and a half, almost four. This is an important boundary in our family because like I said at the beginning, I know how important sleep is to the family and to my child that it’s something I want to say to him.

 

00:09:29:13 – 00:09:42:22

Dr. Mona

Like you said before he became a toddler, this is something that’s important for you. It’s going to make you feel better when you’re sick. It’s going to be restorative, like sleep is a beautiful thing and you can do it on your own. And if you can’t, I’ll be there. We’ll help each other. Yeah.

 

00:09:43:00 – 00:10:03:05

Dr Shelby Harris 

There are different strategies to help your child sleep right and to sleep independently. But the way that I always look at it too, is like, you have to think about your family and what’s going to happen, right? So if you’re someone who always has to be there for your child to fall asleep or you have to have certain conditions all perfect, you know what happens the nights that you maybe have a babysitter?

 

00:10:03:05 – 00:10:19:15

Dr Shelby Harris 

What happens if they go to the grandparents house to sleep? Does it all fall apart because you are not there? Yeah. And if that starts to happen, then your child’s going to be sleep deprived. They’re going to be even more cranky the next day and the next. It just starts a sequela of problems that can happen because of that.

 

00:10:19:15 – 00:10:43:11

Dr Shelby Harris 

So it’s think about that. Like even from an early age, right. Do are there certain things that are so rigid that it can make it harder for babysitters or going away or whatever that might be? And then the other thing that I start to think about is like, okay, maybe it wasn’t an issue, but or they just kind of families power through the grandparents visiting or going somewhere else and the parents not being there, and they’re like, oh, with once in a while it’s not a problem.

 

00:10:43:13 – 00:11:03:17

Dr Shelby Harris 

But then once you start to have a child who might have be like seven, eight might, if your family is okay with sleepovers, yeah, maybe your child can start having sleepovers at some point, you know? And is your child still needing you to be there to be able to go to sleep? And that’s when, you know, we really need to start doing something about it.

 

00:11:03:17 – 00:11:16:12

Dr Shelby Harris 

If your value is to have a sleepover or to have your kids repercussions or whatever it might be. Interestingly, the most busiest time that I have in my practice is right before our sleepaway camp starts.

 

00:11:16:12 – 00:11:16:23

Dr. Mona

That makes sense.

 

00:11:17:01 – 00:11:42:14

Dr Shelby Harris 

Where I am in New York, sleepover camp is like a huge, huge thing. My kids go, a lot of people go, and a lot of parents are worried because their kids are now a nine, ten, 11, right? The sleep doesn’t just magically get better. A lot of times I don’t. And what’s interesting though, is that if their child is used to having like people around to fall asleep, sometimes sleepover camp isn’t as big of an issue as people anticipate it, right?

 

00:11:42:18 – 00:12:01:01

Dr Shelby Harris 

Because there are people in the room. There’s other people. So a lot of times that’s okay. But then if you continue having to be there when they come back and now you’re home, it’s only going to keep becoming an issue that’s a little masked until maybe college. And that’s when I can really start to come out. And I get a lot of calls right before Wow, too.

 

00:12:01:07 – 00:12:25:11

Dr Shelby Harris 

Like I wake up. Yeah, I have a lot of 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 year old that need their parent to come in at five in the morning because they can’t go back to sleep. It’s surprising. Yeah, but it’s really if you don’t address it and try to give them skills, even if they can’t go back to sleep to read quietly and their room to do things without needing you to be there to fall right back asleep, it will make a big difference in the long run.

 

00:12:25:16 – 00:12:41:03

Dr. Mona

Oh, and it’s hard. I’m happy that you’re on the show too, because in my experience, obviously I don’t see as much sleep issues as you because that’s your specialty. But I had an eight year old that’s the oldest I’ve seen where the mom was like, besides herself. She’s like, I can’t sleep. He won’t go to bed on his own.

 

00:12:41:03 – 00:12:59:03

Dr. Mona

And in that family they did bed sharing, which they love for a certain time. And I respect that. Fine. If that’s. But then at some point they didn’t love it anymore, right? It became like, you said, the family. It wasn’t working for them. And that’s when we probably should have intervened. But they didn’t see me until 4 or 5 years later where it had already become an issue.

 

00:12:59:03 – 00:13:14:06

Dr. Mona

But they didn’t do anything about it. And then now it was an eight year old who literally in tears when we were talking about this new boundaries. And he’s like, mommy, I don’t, you know, mommy’s how he talked to her. I’m still mommy. I don’t want to do it. I’m not going to sleep alone. And she’s like looking at me with like, tears.

 

00:13:14:06 – 00:13:40:22

Dr. Mona

She’s like, I don’t know what to do. And that is exactly the conversation. So I guess there isn’t an age who would say it really is? Like you said, the earlier you start to incorporate these skills, it becomes a matter of kind of the routine and the matter of fact. But when would you say the age is? I guess it kind of says, like when a family wants it to happen and also when you’re trying to consider these other things, right, like sleepovers, relatives taking care of the child, all of these things are starting to take play.

 

00:13:40:23 – 00:14:07:20

Dr Shelby Harris 

Yeah, 100%. I don’t think there’s like one deadline because I do things like we were saying, every kid’s different. And the other thing to consider, too, is, is there any day time anxiety that’s factored into some of this too, for some people? So if I suspect that there’s any separation anxiety, other anxiety, night time fears, things that are going on that I might intervene, I’m not necessarily a child psychologist myself because a lot of it’s parenting education, the stuff that I do.

 

00:14:08:01 – 00:14:32:19

Dr Shelby Harris 

But if I suspect there’s a lot of anxiety going on during the day, I might refer to an actual specialist in childhood anxiety, child anxiety, who can then give the child work with the child on what the anxiety is, because a lot of times it can also be things like separation anxiety. And if you notice that you can’t leave the room during the day or leave the house without your child being really anxious, that might be the first place to actually work before you even start working on the nighttime, for sure.

 

00:14:32:23 – 00:14:50:08

Dr. Mona

Oh, it’s all connected and absolutely, it’s such a comprehensive approach. And so I know there’s a lot of sleep consultants out there, and maybe a lot of sleep consultants are listening to this. And one of the biggest things I don’t mind that they’re out there, but I also get a little concerned because they don’t sometimes understand the big picture of sleep.

 

00:14:50:08 – 00:15:10:12

Dr. Mona

The fact that in babies feeding, how impactful feeding is, the sleep and feeding mechanisms and all of that and anxiety, behavioral concerns, like you mentioned, that. And even for me, I was like, oh, absolutely. You know, like the downtime or I know we’ll have another episode about ADHD or sleep apnea. Like, what else is happening? It’s not always at the child.

 

00:15:10:18 – 00:15:27:07

Dr. Mona

Like sometimes we’ll get into this, but in another episode, it’s not always that the parent is not setting the boundary. Sometimes it’s medical. So I love that you, brought that up about anxiety, you know, because it absolutely can be a thing. And so what’s the youngest that we see? See boy camp like six years old. Seven.

 

00:15:27:07 – 00:15:35:03

Dr Shelby Harris 

Oh, I mean, I would say the average is between 8 to 10. That’s a lot of camp. But camps will start as early as six.

 

00:15:35:04 – 00:15:54:02

Dr. Mona

Okay. That’s what I thought. I know some have been like six seven. So let’s use an example of like you don’t have to get into a whole console, but let’s use an example of a six year old and, you know, maybe a couple tips. A six year old who has gotten so used to needing a parent with them, and the family is now wanting to wean that off so that they can go to sleep away camp.

 

00:15:54:02 – 00:16:03:07

Dr. Mona

Or maybe the parents want to go away and grandma wants to, you know, settle the child down and they can’t. So what are some tips for that six year old who is not an independent sleeper?

 

00:16:03:09 – 00:16:22:20

Dr Shelby Harris 

So what I always try to do is first and foremost figure out, are they getting enough sleep? Is the bedtime right? Are there because if you have them, especially six year olds napping at this point. So if you have them sleep deprived already, that’s just going to make it even worse. You’ve got a like kind of overtired child that you’re trying to put down would just make it so much more difficult.

 

00:16:23:01 – 00:16:40:18

Dr Shelby Harris 

So it really does depend. But what I always try to do is start by moving the location to their bed. So it’s much more difficult if the child is always falling asleep in the parent’s bed. Initially the parents have to be there. So the first thing I always say is let’s change the location. That’s at least get them in their room.

 

00:16:40:22 – 00:16:54:09

Dr Shelby Harris 

And if there’s some like I don’t want to be in my room door at all at night, like then you have to spend more time during the day in their room. Sometimes at this age you can have nighttime fears. So go through the closet, like look or, you know, make some gains. Now they’re not so scared about the room.

 

00:16:54:10 – 00:17:10:01

Dr Shelby Harris 

And then it’s really about, I like at this stage because if you just keep like saying, you know, you’re going to bed on your own, whatever it is, you know, in walk away, they’re going to get out of the bed and keep running to you. So then it’s more about what we like to say. It’s called graduated extinction, but now they call it camping out, which is a much easier term.

 

00:17:10:03 – 00:17:27:03

Dr Shelby Harris 

And it’s like, okay, you stay there, but maybe you’re not in the bed with your child or rubbing their back, or you just stay there and you’re quiet and you sit at the edge of the bed, and then after a few days, if they fall asleep independently without needing you to rub their back or be in the bed with them, and you move maybe a foot or two away, and don’t talk to them like it’s bedtime.

 

00:17:27:03 – 00:17:44:14

Dr Shelby Harris 

Otherwise, I’m going to leave bedtime, and you keep slowly removing your presence so that you don’t have to be there over time. It takes a long time to do for some people, but it is a very effective treatment. And then also teaching them if the middle of the night is happening. I am a fan. I worked with Jody Mendell, who is one of Doctor in Dallas.

 

00:17:44:14 – 00:18:04:02

Dr Shelby Harris 

Like one of the biggest and most amazing researchers in pediatric sleep. Her book, Sleeping Through the Night. I highly recommend everyone. It’s great. It’s older, but it’s great. So she always says, and this is based on research. She’s like, if they start falling asleep by themselves, this could for any age, usually about two weeks later, it starts to generalize to the middle of the night.

 

00:18:04:03 – 00:18:16:18

Dr Shelby Harris 

So I don’t like do everything at once, just respond as you want in the middle and I’d have them come back to your room, whatever, go to their room. But then after two weeks, if it’s still is happening with the middle of the night stuff, they can do the same thing with the camping out. That’s kind of what I like to do overall.

 

00:18:16:21 – 00:18:17:10

Dr Shelby Harris 

Oh.

 

00:18:17:12 – 00:18:37:03

Dr. Mona

I love it. Yeah, and that’s great. And the schedules. Absolutely. And then also, yes, I also do agree with the graduated extinction. I like graduate extinction for all sorts of training. Yes, quote unquote. I think it’s the best method. And no, we’re not talking about infants, but the little moments, checking in the check ins, I mean, it really does help.

 

00:18:37:03 – 00:18:55:09

Dr. Mona

And in this. Yeah. The camping out. I think this is wonderful. Have you ever recommended like a timer method? Like, if a child loves to lay down with the parent setting like a timer of I’ve done this with Ryan when we travel because he want someone there. So we set like a ten minute timer and then my husband or I will leave and then he feels a little safer.

 

00:18:55:09 – 00:18:56:09

Dr. Mona

What about that?

 

00:18:56:11 – 00:19:09:13

Dr Shelby Harris 

You can do it. It can for sure, but it can backfire with some kids because then they’re like, how many more minutes left? How many more? If you have a little bit more of an anxious child, it can put more pressure on time and then make it worse. So just kind of have to use the temperament of the child to kind of guide.

 

00:19:09:13 – 00:19:25:23

Dr. Mona

Oh love it. And exactly what this whole conversation is, the temperament in that. I love that we are talking about strategies because it’s not a one size fits all approach. Like we said with my two kids, also my daughter could be the one that will not just go down when she’s older. Like, I’m going to have to sit there and camp out when my son didn’t need that.

 

00:19:25:23 – 00:19:47:10

Dr. Mona

So I think it’s so healthy and important that we have that conversation about, okay, what is your child need? What do you need? Mom, dad, whoever the caregiver is, it’s so vital because I feel like so many times parents forget to tap into what the family needs. Also, and I think that’s happening on social media, like, well, your child needs to sleep with you.

 

00:19:47:10 – 00:20:03:13

Dr. Mona

They need to do this, that they feel attached. So then a lot of parents feel like this is what I’m supposed to do. But like we said, at some point it becomes an issue for them. The mental health is enacted. And so as long as it’s good for you, keep doing it. But at some point you’re going to want to change something.

 

00:20:03:13 – 00:20:05:05

Dr. Mona

And that’s what this episode’s about.

 

00:20:05:07 – 00:20:09:02

Dr Shelby Harris 

Just don’t assume that, yes, that’s the thing I would never tell anyone.

 

00:20:09:04 – 00:20:23:13

Dr. Mona

Yeah, I mean, I have a story about like, my sister in law, brother in law, they, had a two year old and the two year old was bed sharing with the mom and dad was sick separately, and they wanted a date night. So I was like, this is before I became a mother. And I was like, sure.

 

00:20:23:16 – 00:20:39:09

Dr. Mona

Like all me and my husband, we were like, young and single. We’re like, or young and without children. And I was like, yeah, we’ll watch her. And my sister in law was like, you know, she needs to have her belly button rubbed before she goes to bed. And I was like, okay, I can rub her belly button, like if that’s what needs to happen.

 

00:20:39:11 – 00:21:00:23

Dr. Mona

But she didn’t want me to rub the belly button. Had to be her mother. Oh my goodness. Chaos. Like screaming for her in a corner crying. And I was like, whoa, this is again before I became a mom. And I just sat with her and I talked with her and she would not sleep. And I held her while she cried because she only wanted her mom.

 

00:21:00:23 – 00:21:15:12

Dr. Mona

And I told her mom this after, and she, you know, I was like, look, we dealt with it. I want you to know that it was fine. She fell asleep. I was there, but that is kind of what I’m talking about, that, you know, you gave the example of someone else needing to take care of her child. It wasn’t working because she wouldn’t do it.

 

00:21:15:12 – 00:21:34:06

Dr. Mona

You know, obviously now she sleeps independently. She’s older. But my husband and I were like, whoa. Like, for us, we wanted it to be that grandma or a nanny could come and take care of our son, and that was what we wanted for ourselves. And now, obviously, people make that decision for what they need. But I use that example because it is a reality.

 

00:21:34:06 – 00:21:50:07

Dr. Mona

There is going to have a point where you’re going to be like, well, I want to date night. I want to connect with my partner and I love my child and it’s just one night. But if they have gotten so used to not having anybody else, it’s going to be this. And problem that they’re not. Yeah, she wasn’t traumatized.

 

00:21:50:07 – 00:22:00:09

Dr. Mona

I was there. But like it was kind of a for me because I was like well okay. Oh here we go. But yeah, I think this was such a good conversation.

 

00:22:00:11 – 00:22:17:08

Dr Shelby Harris 

Yeah, it can become really problematic. And the other thing, too, is to also think about, like, do you have help during the day? Are they putting your child down like try it’s not easy all the time, but it’s more often you can be consistent with how you’re putting your child down. We’ll make it easier to in the long run, I love it.

 

00:22:17:08 – 00:22:21:18

Dr Shelby Harris 

I think that the take home message is don’t expect it’s going to get better.

 

00:22:21:23 – 00:22:29:12

Dr. Mona

Or well, that’s a wonderful segway to the take home. Because I was going to ask you, is there anything else you wanted to add besides obviously don’t expect it to get better.

 

00:22:29:13 – 00:22:45:13

Dr Shelby Harris 

I think it’s just, you know, and also to not assume that the only thing you can do or have to do is just like, leave your child and just ignore her, right? For three nights like that. Now there are, yeah, so many different ways. And when I work with patients and families, I’m always thinking about what will serve you.

 

00:22:45:13 – 00:23:03:16

Dr Shelby Harris 

What will be the easiest? Easiest? It’s never easy. Yeah. What will be the one thing that we can do where you can be consistent with it? Because if you’re only doing something for a night or two and it’s just too hard and then you give up, it’s just going to make it prolonged even more. So, I’d rather we do it slowly and consistently than, you know, just rip off the Band-Aid.

 

00:23:03:16 – 00:23:07:15

Dr Shelby Harris 

For a lot of families, some people are okay with that, but others, it can be really challenging, especially with the older kids.

 

00:23:07:15 – 00:23:22:18

Dr. Mona

Absolutely. And that consistency with temperament. Right. Like respecting us, like we said, that would be my take home for this conversation is that look at the kid. I give the example of my two kids and I knew it. I told my husband, I’m like, we can’t get lucky twice. Like, it’s not like we’re going to have this kid from the get go.

 

00:23:22:20 – 00:23:42:10

Dr. Mona

But I was right, and it’s okay. And it was hard. But we got her there, and she still needs that connection, and that’s amazing. But yes, I hope everyone who listened to this understands that every child unique. But there are ways to teach those foundational skills so that they don’t need you and they won’t go to college and, you know, be calling you to sleep because it is a healthy skill.

 

00:23:42:10 – 00:23:52:05

Dr. Mona

I believe. Yeah it is. Thank you so much for joining us. I know I’m going to have you back on to talk about some medical stuff related to sleep, but where can people find you to stay connected?

 

00:23:52:07 – 00:24:04:12

Dr Shelby Harris 

So the easiest place to find me is on Instagram at Sleep Doc Shelby. I’m also on TikTok, but not as frequently. And then you go to my website doctor like Dr. like doctor Shelby harris.com. So Dr.. Shelby Harris doc also these places.

 

00:24:04:12 – 00:24:31:16

Dr. Mona

And I’ll be adding all of that to our show notes. Make sure you give Doctor Shelby a follow. Like I mentioned at the beginning, I learned so much about my sleep also. And I’ve gotten better sleep because of the methods that she talks about, even just on her social media. So really a great follow. And if you love this episode, which I’m sure you did, make sure you leave a review, call a doctor Shelby and say how much you loved the conversation that we had today, and I’ll talk to her next time and another guest next time as well.

 

00:24:31:18 – 00:24:32:17

Dr Shelby Harris 

Thank you Doctor Mona.

 

00:24:32:18 – 00:24:48:11

Dr. Mona

Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review. Share this episode with a friend. Share it on your social media. Make sure to follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram and subscribe to my YouTube channel. PedsDocTalkTV. I will talk to you soon.