This episode is one of the most important conversations I’ve had about vaccines. I sit down with a leading vaccine expert to slow down the noise and talk honestly about where we are right now in America. We discuss how vaccines went from one of the greatest public health successes in history to something many families feel unsure about, and what that shift means for children. This is not about politics or headlines. It’s about what I see as a pediatrician, what clinicians across the country are experiencing, and why protecting kids still has to be the center of the conversation.

We talk about fear, misinformation, and the very real consequences of falling vaccination rates. I share personal stories from training and practice that still stay with me, and we unpack how trust eroded, how Covid changed the landscape, and what parents deserve to understand moving forward. My hope is that this episode helps families step back from the chaos and reconnect with the core goal we all share: keeping children safe, healthy, and out of hospitals whenever we can.

What we discuss:

• The current state of vaccines in America

• Why vaccines are a victim of their own success

• How misinformation spreads faster than evidence

• Turning points that eroded public trust in vaccines

• The impact of Covid on vaccine perception

• Real clinical consequences of falling vaccination rates

• Stories of vaccine-preventable illness from practice

• Why personal choice affects community safety

• Changes to vaccine recommendations and public messaging

• What parents should understand about risk vs benefit

To connect with Paul Offit follow him on Instagram @pauloffitmd and check out all his resources at ⁠https://www.paul-offit.com/⁠ 

00:00 Opening Message: The Real Risk of Skipping Vaccines
02:12 Meet Dr. Paul Offit
03:30 The Current State of Vaccines in America
05:04 Vaccines Are a Victim of Their Own Success
06:12 Why We Still Need Vaccines for “Rare” Diseases
08:27 Where Modern Vaccine Distrust Began (1982 Turning Point)
10:34 Pandemic Fallout and Vaccine Hesitancy
12:02 Frontline Stories from COVID
15:06 Denial in the Face of Evidence
17:11 How Vaccine Communication Should Change
19:00 Operation Warp Speed and Scientific Breakthrough
21:13 Politics and Public Health History
23:18 Measles Deaths Are Not “The Cost of Doing Business”
25:20 Medical Freedom vs Public Responsibility
28:23 Schedule Changes and Shared Decision Making
32:49 Life Before Rotavirus Vaccine
34:02 RSV Breakthroughs and Modern Progress
38:31 The Emotional Toll of Vaccine Misinformation
40:02 Residency Stories: When Prevention Fails
43:30 A Message to Vaccine-Hesitant Parents
45:35 What Keeps Dr. Offit Fighting
47:04 Final Takeaway: Vaccines Succeeded So We Forgot

Our podcasts are also now on YouTube. If you prefer a video podcast with closed captioning, check us out there and⁠ ⁠subscribe to PedsDocTalk⁠⁠.

Get trusted pediatric advice, relatable parenting insights, and evidence-based tips delivered straight to your inbox—join thousands of parents who rely on the PDT newsletter to stay informed, supported, and confident.⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Join the newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠!

And don’t forget to follow⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠@pedsdoctalkpodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on Instagram—our new space just for parents looking for real talk and real support.

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on the⁠ ⁠PedsDocTalk Podcast Sponsorships⁠⁠ page of the website. 

00;00;00;05 – 00;00;18;12

Dr. Paul Offit

I think our job as parents is to put children in the safest position possible, and vaccines provide that safety, and to realize that a choice not to get a vaccine is not a risk free choice. It’s a choice to take a different and more serious risk. And you never think it’s going to happen to you.

 

00;00;18;14 – 00;00;42;04

Dr. Mona

Hey, everyone. Doctor Mona here. Welcome back to the PedsDocTalk podcast. I’m your online pediatrician, mom, friend and trusted guide through child health, parenting and development. And welcome back to the show. Oh, today’s conversation is an important one, and it’s a guest that I’ve admired for so long. In the science space, in the vaccine space, it is Doctor Paul Offit, one of the most respected experts in vaccines.

 

00;00;42;06 – 00;01;11;24

Dr. Mona

He’s the director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, a professor of pediatrics and vaccinology at the University of Pennsylvania, and the co-inventor of the rotavirus vaccine. Yes, he was in charge of spearheading the creation of a vaccine that has saved hospital admissions and lives around the world. Doctor Offit has spent decades not only developing vaccines, but helping parents and clinicians understand them clearly, especially during moments of fear, confusion and misinformation.

 

00;01;11;27 – 00;01;32;17

Dr. Mona

In this episode, we slow things down and talk about the real state of vaccines in America, where misinformation came from. What’s changed? What hasn’t, and what parents truly need to understand right now beyond the noise or political theater. If this podcast helps you feel more informed and grounded, please make sure you’re subscribed to the show and download this episode.

 

00;01;32;17 – 00;02;00;15

Dr. Mona

I cannot stress how important that is for us to continue to grow and reach more people. And most importantly, if it resonated, please share it on social. Send it to a friend, tag us at PedsDocTalk at the PedsDocTalk podcast, and at Paul Offit offer. It seemed so we can see it. We also post clips and conversation on social media every Wednesday and Friday, and sharing those helps spread evidence based medicine and support for the science of vaccines.

 

00;02;00;15 – 00;02;12;01

Dr. Mona

So please spread this far and wide and let’s get into this incredibly important conversation.

 

00;02;12;03 – 00;02;14;03

Dr. Mona

Thank you so much for being here today.

 

00;02;14;05 – 00;02;16;21

Dr. Paul Offit

Well, thanks for asking me about it. It’s my pleasure.

 

00;02;16;23 – 00;02;34;10

Dr. Mona

You know, we connected, previously on an event we did for journalists. It was a virtual panel that we had done talking about the status of science education, misinformation, regarding vaccines. And that was an honor to sit in that same virtual room as you. And so after that session, I asked you if you would come on here.

 

00;02;34;10 – 00;02;59;15

Dr. Mona

And I just felt like I hit the jackpot getting someone like you on my show, a show that is really, really committed to sharing Evidence-Based information and help parents make the right choices for their children. And you’ve spent decades not just studying vaccines, developing them, but explaining them to parents, clinicians and policymakers. And we’re talking today about the state of vaccines in America, because obviously, it’s been very volatile.

 

00;02;59;22 – 00;03;17;26

Dr. Mona

And what parents need to understand now. And I want this conversation to slow things down and focus on what’s actually happening and not just the noise. And my hope is that if you’re listening to this today, that even if you agree with us what we’re saying and you’re like, oh yeah, we I know Doctor Offit, I know Doctor Mona, I agree.

 

00;03;18;02 – 00;03;29;18

Dr. Mona

Please share it because this is how we get this information out to someone who may be on the fence of vaccines, someone who may be, spreading misinformation. So I’d like to get into it. If you’re ready for me.

 

00;03;29;20 – 00;03;30;23

Dr. Paul Offit

I’m ready. Let it rest.

 

00;03;30;23 – 00;03;48;20

Dr. Mona

Yeah. So, you know, when people hear that vaccines are under attack, it can sound abstract, especially for the consumer or the patient. You know, they’re like, well, what does this mean? But for us in the medical community, we feel that, you know, we felt that for quite some time, but especially now within the last year, we’ve seen a lot of changes.

 

00;03;48;22 – 00;04;02;05

Dr. Mona

From your perspective, what is the real state of vaccines in America as it stands right now, not headlines or social media, but what you’re seeing in your experience on the ground and what you would want parents and pediatricians and professionals to know.

 

00;04;02;08 – 00;04;21;19

Dr. Paul Offit

Well, vaccines have saved our lives. I mean, certainly when I was growing up as a child in the 50s, I had measles, I had mumps, I had rubella, German measles, I had chickenpox, I was born before the polio vaccine, and I was five years of age for a reason other than polio. I was in a chronic, care facility, orthopedic facilities, which was a polio ward.

 

00;04;21;19 – 00;04;45;06

Dr. Paul Offit

So I certainly saw children in our lungs. I saw children getting that Sister Kennedy hot pack treatments. There, which caused them to scream. It was a Dickens like experience. But, I mean, I think in terms of the state of the art for vaccines, we we have made vaccines that have now prevented us from having meningitis and sepsis and pneumonia and paralysis from polio and congenital birth defects.

 

00;04;45;09 – 00;05;04;08

Dr. Paul Offit

So the state of vaccines is excellent. The problem is the how vaccines are being perceived. And I think vaccines suffer two problems. I think the first is that they’re a victim of their own success. The most people don’t see vaccine preventable diseases, and so therefore they’re less compelled to get them. And I think that’s also true for young doctors.

 

00;05;04;08 – 00;05;31;12

Dr. Paul Offit

And the young doctors also didn’t don’t know don’t CDC say they didn’t grow up with these diseases. So I don’t think they can appreciate them at some level. And the second thing is there is just much more readily available misinformation, this and disinformation than we’ve ever had before. And we now have a secretary of Health and Human Services and Robert F Kennedy Jr, who is a virulent anti-vaccine activist and science denialist who is now trying to reshape health and human services to his point of view.

 

00;05;31;12 – 00;05;36;02

Dr. Paul Offit

So that is, I think when people say vaccines are under attack, that’s what I think of.

 

00;05;36;08 – 00;05;52;24

Dr. Mona

Oh, I think it’s so beautifully said. Those two points right there. And I love that. That’s a, a victim of its own success, I believe you have. That is where I heard it first from you. And I was like, that is beautifully said. And to that statement. Right. The people who are like, well, yeah, we don’t we don’t see polio.

 

00;05;52;24 – 00;06;09;18

Dr. Mona

And I believe as of today, there was a member of the CDC who had mentioned that we should make that optional, you know, the polio vaccine. And I think, you know, like when they’re talking about all these optional language and things like that, which we’ll get into. What would be your message to those people who say that like, well, we don’t see it now.

 

00;06;09;24 – 00;06;12;08

Dr. Mona

What is the point? Why are we doing this?

 

00;06;12;10 – 00;06;34;01

Dr. Paul Offit

Well, so we don’t see smallpox now. We also don’t see smallpox anywhere in the world. So we stopped giving the smallpox vaccine to children in 1972, and to all pox is gone. So you don’t need that vaccine anymore. But everything else is still around. I mean, measles and rubella and polio, those viruses still circulate. I mean, rotavirus still circulates.

 

00;06;34;01 – 00;06;58;04

Dr. Paul Offit

Influenza viruses still circulate. SARS-CoV-2, the cause of Covid still circulates. So we’re chooses not to get those vaccines is a choice to risk those. And I think I mean there is if we could eliminate measles from the face of the earth, I would divide disease into two categories. One is short incubation period, mucosal infections. By that I mean from the time you’re exposed to the virus to when you develop symptoms, you’ll never eliminate those diseases.

 

00;06;58;07 – 00;07;28;28

Dr. Paul Offit

Rotavirus, influenza, SARS-CoV-2. Those are short incubation period mucosal finishes with long incubation period. Diseases like smallpox or measles or rubella or mumps. You actually could eliminate those diseases. But we haven’t. And because they still circulate, you’re at risk. Look at what happened with in 2022. With Rockland County, New York, there was a 27 year old man who got paralyzed by polio, the type of virus that paralyzed him, which was a so-called reverting strain from the original polio vaccine that only causes paralysis in 1 or 2000 people.

 

00;07;29;00 – 00;07;46;25

Dr. Paul Offit

So when he was paralyzed, you knew he was a typically much bigger iceberg. And there that virus was in wastewater samples in Rockland County and surrounding counties. And I think if you look in Philadelphia or Chicago or Los Angeles, you would also find that virus. So lower immunization rates far enough. And polio can certainly come back. And I’m not sure people realize this.

 

00;07;46;27 – 00;08;04;16

Dr. Mona

Yeah, I feel that, you know, obviously I feel like I’m preaching to the choir a lot with my community. As you probably know, my community is a very pro-science or pro-science leaning, like if they’re, you know, if they’re vaccine curious, maybe they’re like, maybe I’ll not get this one. But I’m definitely, you know, wanting to get certain ones and things like that.

 

00;08;04;23 – 00;08;27;04

Dr. Mona

And so trying to reach the communities that are, again, leaning the other way under, making them understand that this is a reality, like you just said. And all of this didn’t happen overnight. And what I mean by this, this misinformation, especially the rise of, you know, RFK Jr being in a position now to have a government position to give all of this misinformation.

 

00;08;27;04 – 00;08;42;29

Dr. Mona

So looking back, you know, obviously in the last 15 to 20 years, maybe in the last five years, what do you see as the biggest turning points that led to this increased erosion of trust in vaccines? And which of those moments do you think we still misunderstand?

 

00;08;43;01 – 00;09;08;24

Dr. Paul Offit

I think the turning point on how people perceive vaccines occurred in mid April of 1982. That’s what it was, a film that was put out called DPT Vaccine Roulette. And it was a very emotional film. It showed a series of pictures of children with sort of staring vacantly up in the sky, seizing school helmets, drooling, with a variety of neurodevelopmental problems.

 

00;09;08;24 – 00;09;33;23

Dr. Paul Offit

And all the parents told the same story. My child was fine. Then they got this pertussis, or whooping cough vaccine, and now look at them. That led to a flood of litigation. By mid 1980s 1985, there were $3.2 billion in lawsuits against pharmaceutical companies that made vaccines. And that led to the birth then in 1986, of the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act, which included the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, which stopped the bleeding.

 

00;09;33;23 – 00;09;49;09

Dr. Paul Offit

But we had 18 companies that made vaccines for America’s children in 1980. By 1990, we had four. And if it wasn’t for that vaccine injury compensation program, we would have had none. And so I think that sort of gave birth to the notion that vaccines might be doing more harm than good. I mean, the media picked that up.

 

00;09;49;17 – 00;09;56;08

Dr. Paul Offit

It was kind of congressional testimony that that sort of echoed that notion. That, to me, was the birth of distrust, if you will.

 

00;09;56;08 – 00;10;21;10

Dr. Mona

Yeah. Now, let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show. Oh, and how do you think? Do you agree? So I would say I was to be quite frank. I was born after that, period. So I’m a 1985 baby. And so and I started practicing about ten year, over 11 or 11 years ago.

 

00;10;21;22 – 00;10;34;16

Dr. Mona

Do you think the pandemic played a role also in sort of how the sort of, you know, this vaccine acceptance, hesitancy, anti-vax sentiment, or you feel like it’s kind of always been there and amplified just because of social media?

 

00;10;34;19 – 00;10;53;14

Dr. Paul Offit

I think it’s always been there, and definitely amplified during the pandemic for a couple reasons. I think that, in 2020, when the virus came into this country, it started killing people in February of 2020. SARS-CoV-2 virus. We didn’t have anything. We didn’t have monoclonal antibodies until the end of the year. We didn’t have a vaccine.

 

00;10;53;14 – 00;11;11;29

Dr. Paul Offit

So the end of the year, we didn’t have the antivirals till the end of the year to try and stop a virus that was killing people, hundreds of people every day. And so what do we do? We shuttered schools, we closed businesses, we restricted travel and, we mask and distance, social distance in quarantine. And I think people saw that as massive government overreach.

 

00;11;11;29 – 00;11;33;25

Dr. Paul Offit

They didn’t like that. And in 2021, we had a vaccine because we had a vaccine by December of 2020, you couldn’t go anywhere without your vaccine card, your favorite bar, restaurant, sporting event, wedding. And, I think if people were fired from their jobs, I think people saw that as government overreach. And I think this is I think we leaned into a libertarian left hook, and I think we’re feeling the punch.

 

00;11;33;25 – 00;12;00;24

Dr. Paul Offit

But there also, I think the anti-vaccine information was supercharged by that. And our current secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F Kennedy Jr, said in in, early 2021 while testifying in front of Louisiana legislature. The Covid vaccines were, quote, the most dangerous vaccine ever made, that the vaccine ended up killing more people than it saved. I mean, that’s our current secretary of Health and Human Services.

 

00;12;00;27 – 00;12;02;19

Dr. Paul Offit

This is a nightmare.

 

00;12;02;22 – 00;12;18;14

Dr. Mona

And, you know, it’s so hard about that. So I don’t know if you’re familiar. Obviously, I’m a pediatrician, but my husband’s an ER doctor. And he was working, you know, we work, we live in Florida, and Florida had very lax regulations, right. There was no, you know, you had to have your card. You had to do this.

 

00;12;18;14 – 00;12;39;14

Dr. Mona

It was very free for all. And a lot of people moved here who didn’t want rules, like, let’s say, from the northeast for New York had more rules than, you know, Florida had. And he saw those patients. I mean, we still to this day, talk about those patients that literally decompensated within 24 hours. And if anyone’s not familiar with that term, decompensated meaning they walk in there feeling crummy.

 

00;12;39;14 – 00;13;04;10

Dr. Mona

And then the 24 hours they’re on life support or dead. And he will never forget those patients, you know. And that was really hard for us being on the front line. And then also hearing that sentiment of this vaccine is not necessary. It’s causing more harm than good, because what he saw in his own face, and what I saw as a general pediatrician, mainly for him because the vaccine came out for adults first, was that those who were vaccinated were less likely to have those complications.

 

00;13;04;10 – 00;13;24;06

Dr. Mona

And we saw that. And you know, what I saw from a community communication standpoint, because I was on social media, is I just see a disservice from our side. And I say our side of the pro-science wanting people to encourage them to get, you know, vaccines and masks is a lot of absolute language, right, 100% safe. You know, you must do this.

 

00;13;24;06 – 00;13;42;16

Dr. Mona

You must do this versus these. Hey, here’s what we’re seeing. Benefit and risk. This could evolve, but we are acting in real time. And I think for the first time in modern history, for so many people, especially with access to social media, people were seeing public health in real time, right? They were seeing a novel virus come into this world.

 

00;13;42;23 – 00;14;03;23

Dr. Mona

And how it how the formulation happens with the vaccine. And you have been doing that for decades before, right when rotavirus was around. But we have been so lucky that we haven’t seen that in so long. And so now people were seeing this and they’re like, oh, wait, it’s so rushed. I’m being forced. But I think people forget that that had to happen because people were legitimately dying.

 

00;14;03;23 – 00;14;23;12

Dr. Mona

Young, healthy adults were dying. And those children at the beginning, the mIS-C, long Covid. I mean, I was seeing that too. And I think, like you said, people are so blind if they don’t see what it actually does. And that was so hard to see, you know, it’s like easy to, sit behind a keyboard and say, oh, this is doing nothing.

 

00;14;23;12 – 00;14;40;07

Dr. Mona

It’s going to harm you. When those that was not fact, there was no data to support that. And that’s that’s scary to me that people were just believing what in-person information without when everything else is pointing to that this is wrong. Look at what’s happening in front of you people weren’t believing their own eyes, which was terrifying to me.

 

00;14;40;10 – 00;15;06;05

Dr. Paul Offit

That was the most amazing aspect to me. I mean, when the vaccine rolled out in full in January 2021, by July we had vaccinated about 70% of the population, which was pretty amazing, actually. Yeah, there really wasn’t any infrastructure for mass vaccinating adults in this country. And then we hit a wall 30% of this country refused to be vaccinated, even though in 2021 you were 12 times more likely to be hospitalized and die if you weren’t vaccinated than if you were.

 

00;15;06;05 – 00;15;23;10

Dr. Paul Offit

And the following year, 2022, you were six times more likely to be hospitalized or die if you weren’t vaccinated. And it’s amazing how people were denying what was right in front of them. I mean, you can understand how people may be less compelled to get a polio vaccine because, right, in one case, we eliminated polio from this country by 79.

 

00;15;23;13 – 00;15;40;28

Dr. Paul Offit

We had one case of polio recently in 2022. But you can see that the here everybody knew somebody who had Covid if they didn’t have it themselves, I think everybody knew somebody who had significant Covid and still people were willing to die. That was what was most amazing to me, how you could deny what was right in front of you.

 

00;15;40;28 – 00;15;47;19

Dr. Paul Offit

You had people who were dying of Covid who still said they were. They were glad that they made the decision not to get the vaccine. Amazing.

 

00;15;47;21 – 00;16;04;29

Dr. Mona

That is where I’m most concerned. You know, not only when we talk about vaccines, but obviously there’s other things happening in our country right now. I will allude to it. I’m not going to go into detail like, you know, the Ice raids. And when you see visual, like you see proof and you’re people’s eyes are not they’re not believing their own eyes, right?

 

00;16;04;29 – 00;16;25;13

Dr. Mona

They’re not believing data. And I’m worried that data and clinical experience are not enough anymore. Right. Like when I communicate and I am saying all the things I know, of course I’m my community understand, but people are just in unable to see data and see what we just talked about, which is the information of doctors saying, hey, look, we don’t have PPE.

 

00;16;25;13 – 00;16;48;28

Dr. Mona

I’m scared of dying. Like my husband still has PTSD from Covid because of the lack of PPE, the lack of that. Does he have it now? No, because Covid has changed in terms of the severity it’s doing for, you know, most people. But my question there is obviously there’s that there’s no shortage of data, there’s no shortage of clinicians preaching like screaming into the void that this is needed.

 

00;16;49;01 – 00;17;11;25

Dr. Mona

Do you think that the way vaccines are discussed and communicated should change, whether it’s from the AP? I’m not even going to include the CDC anymore because I just feel like, I don’t know, we can talk about it if there’s a way that we can bring that back. But from the AP, public health agencies, science communicators, whether it’s about benefit and risk, what do you think we can change to help people understand all the things we’re talking about here?

 

00;17;11;28 – 00;17;31;28

Dr. Paul Offit

Right. Well, so I certainly agree there is no CDC anymore. I certainly wouldn’t look to them. I think, you know, just like tip O’Neill said, all politics is local. I think all science communication is also local. I think the key player in this is the physician. I mean, most people trust their doctors. And also, it should be pointed out that more than 90% of parents do get vaccinated.

 

00;17;31;28 – 00;17;53;13

Dr. Paul Offit

And so most parents do believe in vaccines. Secondly, if you look at polls independent of your political affiliation, Republican, Democrat or independent, most parents support vaccine to support school entry requirements for a vaccine. So we’re talking about a very loud but vocal minority. And I do think that when when I mean, I’m not in private practice, but my wife is.

 

00;17;53;13 – 00;18;12;16

Dr. Paul Offit

So I’m sort of watching her go through this as a private practicing pediatrician. And, and I think you have to realize that, that people don’t see these many of these diseases anymore. And there’s a lot of bad information out there that’s scary. And when people are scared, they’re scared. They’re legitimately scared. You have to you can’t set that aside and just say that.

 

00;18;12;16 – 00;18;34;14

Dr. Paul Offit

That’s sort of a foolish thing to be scared about because they are legitimately scared. And you have to try and do your best to kind of talk them down about how would you answer the question about whether vaccines cause a particular serious adverse event that they’re worried about? How would you do that? But I think the irony of the Covid pandemic was, I mean, here’s a virus that came into this country that had unusual biological characteristics, unusual clinical characteristics.

 

00;18;34;17 – 00;19;00;29

Dr. Paul Offit

We wait to meet that we use the technology we had never used before, messenger RNA as a platform. This vaccine, within 11 months of that virus coming into this country and sequencing that the genome, we had done two large prospective, placebo controlled clinical trials and for Moderna and Pfizer that the that’s Operation Warp Speed, I honestly think was the most amazing scientific or medical treatment in my lifetime.

 

00;19;00;29 – 00;19;24;28

Dr. Paul Offit

And that was a Trump administration. He should have put his name on it, but I think he didn’t put his name on it because it is hard. Is it deeply modest man who doesn’t like to put his name on things? No, but I could be wrong about that. So I think that was an amazing scientific accomplishment. And it got lost in all this mean the two people that developed the mRNA platform, at least for infectious diseases, you know, Katie Kariko, Andrew Weissman at Penn won the Nobel Prize in medicine in 2023 for this.

 

00;19;25;03 – 00;19;27;06

Dr. Paul Offit

And that all sort of got lost in this.

 

00;19;27;16 – 00;19;46;07

Dr. Mona

I agree, putting the stamp on what we did do good. I mean, there it just feels like, again, what I felt is like there was so much progress, so much good. And then because of the the sting, so staunch on the political leanings of making it, that if I am conservative, I have to be against vaccines, I have to be against mandates.

 

00;19;46;07 – 00;20;08;25

Dr. Mona

I have to be against this when you could be a conservative. I have conservative friends, but you can also use logic and use the fact that, hey, I don’t think I want my kids to die from these illnesses or myself or anyone to just be hospitalized. And I think we, you know, I hear a lot of the which is happening right now with the flu, as you know, you know, so far at this, at the timing of this conversation, there was 32 flu deaths.

 

00;20;09;02 – 00;20;26;29

Dr. Mona

And then the common thing is, well, it’s only 30, 32 people. And I’m like, if you’re saying this, especially as a parent, if it was one of your children, I mean, 32 kids dying from a preventable illness when 90% were unvaccinated, 32, 90% of that. I don’t think as a mother, I would want to hear that, right? That, hey, you know what?

 

00;20;26;29 – 00;20;55;16

Dr. Mona

It was just a life that had to happen. And so we are seeing healthy children die from vaccine preventable illnesses. And that, again, that is very hard to see. And we can celebrate the success of either administration and they can own it and say, hey, look, we do this amazing thing, but it just seems like, again, we just are moving so into this politicization of all of this that it has to be so black and white that if you’re conservative, you got to be MAGA, you got to be anti-vax.

 

00;20;55;16 – 00;21;07;09

Dr. Mona

If you’re if you’re a liberal, it’s not like that. It is a middle ground that I think so many of us have seen lost. And it’s frustrating as a pediatrician and scary to as a mother.

 

00;21;07;12 – 00;21;13;07

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

 

00;21;13;10 – 00;21;42;18

Dr. Paul Offit

You know, you my parents were conservative Republicans, so that’s sort of how I grew up. But I and when this is decades ago, there was an attempt to it was called the 317 coalition. So I was asked to, along with other people who had an experience in the field to to go around Congress and try and convince people to the congressmen to support this, this notion of paying for, vaccines for children who were uninsured or underinsured or this is before the vaccine for children’s program.

 

00;21;42;20 – 00;22;03;05

Dr. Paul Offit

And and that the Republicans were great. They were they were institutionalist. They believed in the CDC. They believed in health and human services. They believe in the ACA. It’s the Democrats that were a pain in the butt because they were like, you pocket a personal injury lawyers, they they overstated vaccine harms. The Republicans. Every Republican I met with was was great.

 

00;22;03;11 – 00;22;12;25

Dr. Paul Offit

So love this. Which is what’s happened. So it’s hard to believe I don’t I don’t think that that it’s it’s just not the right term for what’s going on right now.

 

00;22;12;27 – 00;22;45;25

Dr. Mona

Thank you so much for giving me that history. I mean, that’s very important. And I love that you say that because, again, things just shift for whatever reason. And it’s not like, okay, you have to be that. And I really appreciate that insight. And I, you know, for me right now when I, I don’t know, Ralph Abraham, who I think is like the, second in command at the CDC, principal secretary, I can’t remember the term right now, but he had recently gone on, on some conversations talking about how, you know, losing the measles elimination status isn’t isn’t the big deal that we make it out to be.

 

00;22;45;25 – 00;23;10;10

Dr. Mona

And he did say that, you know, we still have vaccines, we still have therapeutics, we still have all of that, but that there should be personal choice. Now, with the current vaccine climate and with some vaccines being delayed and in the situation de-emphasized, or, you know, even pulled into the recommended schedules in certain settings or giving choice, do you worry that we could start seeing the real return of illnesses?

 

00;23;10;10 – 00;23;18;07

Dr. Mona

And do you think that vaccine elimination status is matter, contrary to what Doctor Ralph or Mr. Abraham is saying?

 

00;23;18;09 – 00;23;39;09

Dr. Paul Offit

Yeah. So what he said, I thought was most egregious is when he said, Ralph Abraham said, that these measles cases and essentially the three measles deaths in 2025 were, quote, the cost of doing business right. And the biggest problem was this quote unquote, porous borders. Well, first of all, that’s not how measles enters this country. The way measles typically enters this country is American.

 

00;23;39;09 – 00;24;01;16

Dr. Paul Offit

American citizens go to countries where measles endemic, they get measles and they bring it back. So so if you mean by porous borders, Americans returning from a trip overseas, I wouldn’t call that porous borders that this is just what normal that’s what always happens. I mean, we eliminated measles in the year 2000, because even though measles would still come into this country from other countries, we had a critical percentage of people that were vaccinated.

 

00;24;01;16 – 00;24;19;13

Dr. Paul Offit

So the virus could not spread. So the reason that we’re seeing measles now, and we’ve had the biggest measles outbreak last year that we’ve seen in 33 years, we had three deaths from measles last year. That equals the total number of deaths over the last 25 years from measles. And we had two children died when we hadn’t had a child that measles since 2003.

 

00;24;19;13 – 00;24;41;26

Dr. Paul Offit

This is not the cost of doing business. This this is us letting our guard down and watching. In the case of West Texas, two healthy little six and eight year old girls die. And you know, we see these this these outrageous events in Minneapolis, you know, with two people again, probably being murdered and certainly dying unnecessarily. And that’s no different to me than these two little girls who died that those were preventable illnesses.

 

00;24;42;01 – 00;25;02;22

Dr. Paul Offit

This is not okay. We eliminated this virus, and this is a member of the CDC who just throws his hands up and says, well, cost of doing business. And similarly, the the new head of the ACIp, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, Doctor Kirk Milk for Mil Hoa and Milken was just interviewed, on a podcast called Why Should I Trust You?

 

00;25;03;00 – 00;25;19;04

Dr. Paul Offit

Where he also said the same things that you just said, which you know, it’s it’s individual choice. I mean, yes, there will be suffering, but, you know, it’s individual choice. And so this whole medical freedom movement is completely at variance with public health, because in public health you care about your neighbor. And in the medical freedom movement, you don’t.

 

00;25;20;18 – 00;25;34;18

Dr. Mona

How do we make people believe in their neighbor? I mean, that’s that’s the struggle. I don’t even know if you have an answer. I know your wife is a pediatrician herself. I’m a science communicator. It just feels. And I want to. I would like to say this first, that I agree with what you said earlier, that I.

 

00;25;34;18 – 00;25;54;24

Dr. Mona

I believe the large majority want the vaccines, whether it’s, you know, in either like we talk about whatever political leanings you have, it is a small, very vocal community like you mentioned. Right. And they are very good at getting together and spreading their playbook, is what I call it, you know, the same the same claims, the same rhetoric, all of that stuff.

 

00;25;54;27 – 00;26;14;03

Dr. Mona

But like, how do we make it clear, like how do we how do we make this clear that this is something that is not just like, this is lies, like it just seems like I’m living in this upside down universe when like I know that these things are important. I know as a practicing pediatrician the benefits outweigh the risk, and just getting that information across is so hard.

 

00;26;14;10 – 00;26;35;29

Dr. Paul Offit

It’s hard. I mean, it’s in that podcast I just mentioned, I’m listening to, the head of the ACIp basically said that that, you know, if you choose not to get a measles vaccine, for example, because you believe that the risks outweigh the benefits, that’s a laudable decision, even if it negatively affects someone who is immunocompromised, which was just a remarkable thing to say.

 

00;26;35;29 – 00;26;57;12

Dr. Paul Offit

First of all, why would you ever make that decision to begin with? I mean, measles virus, when measles was king? You know, before we have a measles vaccine in 96, you’d see 48,000 hospitalizations a year from severe pneumonia, severe dehydration, or encephalitis. The vaccine doesn’t cause any of those problems. So, so, so in terms of risk versus benefits, it’s a clear decision.

 

00;26;57;14 – 00;27;20;25

Dr. Paul Offit

And when you make the decision to put your child and other other people’s children at risk, that’s not a laudable decision. It’s a it’s an inexcusable decision. There was actually a measles outbreak, I remember in 2014, 2015 that sort of centered in Disney land. So it was, you know, left leaning group. This was not a libertarian group. This was kind of the left leaning, you know, all things natural, don’t interact with anything.

 

00;27;20;25 – 00;27;43;07

Dr. Paul Offit

It has a chemical named group. And, and so that was the epicenter of an outbreak that then spread to 25 other states, or maybe 300 K. It’s not nearly as bad as the outbreak that we’re seeing now. And, and there was a state senator named Richard Pan who wanted to introduce a bill, Senate Bill 277, to eliminate basically the philosophical exemption in California for a state that didn’t have a religious exemption.

 

00;27;43;12 – 00;28;02;10

Dr. Paul Offit

So there would be no non-medical exemption. The anti-vaccine actors were there in force. There was a little boy whose name was, crowd Luke crowd. And you can still see him on YouTube. And he got up there and he was little. So he’s like seven years old. So they had to put him on a stool where he could reach the microphone, and he said who he was.

 

00;28;02;10 – 00;28;20;11

Dr. Paul Offit

He said, my name is Luke. I have leukemia. I can’t be vaccinated. I depend on you to protect me. And then looking right at the crowd who was sort of screaming about, you know, the is this notion of eliminating, not, non-medical exemptions. He looked right at them and he said, don’t I count? Of course he counts.

 

00;28;20;11 – 00;28;23;00

Dr. Paul Offit

But I think the medical freedom movement says he doesn’t count.

 

00;28;23;24 – 00;28;45;07

Dr. Mona

It’s just feels it feels hard and, you know, I know the next thing that we have both seen, and I haven’t seen this in the last 14 years, through my training and through being a practicing pediatrician, we we saw a complete change in the recommended vaccine schedule from the CDC. To be clear, the AP released the schedule, which is pretty much what we were doing before, and I appreciate that so much.

 

00;28;45;10 – 00;29;07;12

Dr. Mona

And a lot of that change came with changing the language, right, that you can still get them. This is personal choice. Recommended change to shared decision making. In your opinion, how would that be interpreted by the public? And what what worries you, if anything, about that framing of like the sort of nonchalant, if you want it, you can get it still.

 

00;29;07;19 – 00;29;29;03

Dr. Paul Offit

Okay, here’s the good news. I think most people are ignoring this IP in the CDC. I mean, the American Academy of Pediatrics, to their credit, immediately stood up and said, no, this, this the you know, these the what when, Robert F Kennedy Jr said, we’re not we’re going to no longer recommend the routine use of, the SARS-CoV-2 Covid vaccine in children.

 

00;29;29;08 – 00;29;51;25

Dr. Paul Offit

They said no, the same thing with the flu vaccine, same thing with rotavirus vaccine. They stood up immediately and said no, and they just put out the routinely recommended schedule for 2026, which is a science based schedule, unlike the schedule that’s done by, you know, now by RFK Jr, CDC, I think the thing that struck me was they have this category of shared clinical decision making.

 

00;29;51;25 – 00;29;54;15

Dr. Paul Offit

First of all, that’s always been true. I mean, we’ve always.

 

00;29;54;17 – 00;29;55;19

Dr. Mona

Believed.

 

00;29;55;21 – 00;30;14;01

Dr. Paul Offit

That we’ve had vaccinations at streets. So, so vaccine information. So we’ve always had that there’s nothing new. What what they’re doing, what they’re trying to do is saying, well, you know, this these are really optional. You can get it. You cannot. Because when you share clinical decision making, it makes it sound like you can reasonably make a decision not to get them.

 

00;30;14;06 – 00;30;42;02

Dr. Paul Offit

I think what’s interesting about the three viruses that fall into that category rotavirus, SARS-CoV-2 and flu is those were all short incubation period. Mucosal infections. Even if the entire world were vaccinated every year, those viruses would still circulate. So it’s not to get those vaccines. It’s a very real choice to get those infections. I mean, with, you know, with polio, for example, you know, it’s your choice not to get that vaccine is not an immediate choice to to risk that disease, although it’s not a it’s a bad decision.

 

00;30;42;08 – 00;30;57;00

Dr. Paul Offit

But those three viruses always circulate. I mean, the goal of all three of those vaccines is to keep you out of the hospital, keep you out of the intensive care unit, and keep you out of work. It’s not to prevent mild or moderate disease. It’s a probably the best example of that was SARS-CoV-2. And you alluded to that earlier.

 

00;30;57;03 – 00;31;12;10

Dr. Paul Offit

I think one mistake that we made early on was we should have made it very clear that the goal of this vaccine was to keep you out of the hospital, not to get a lot of sleep because people got mild, moderate disease. And they thought, you know, these people promised me something that they didn’t fulfill exactly that.

 

00;31;12;10 – 00;31;38;06

Dr. Mona

And I think that’s where it started to kind of crumble. And then the conflicting information. But that’s what I heard, too, you know, from my community online. And so, yeah, that sort of we were promised that, hey, like, we couldn’t get it when that was never I think the intent, you know, it was always the communication should have been similar to something like the flu, like, you mentioned that, hey, you can still get it, but the chances of you getting in mIS-C, the chances of you being hospitalized is going to be reduced.

 

00;31;38;06 – 00;31;58;18

Dr. Mona

If you’re thinking about the pediatric population and then for adults. And that’s what we saw clinically, I saw that happen. My husband would tell me and he’s like, we were first in line to get those Covid vaccines. You know, we took a picture because we felt so honored. And so I feel so such a like parallel world of like, we’re so excited at the same time, people are like, you’re crazy for doing and injecting that poison.

 

00;31;58;18 – 00;32;21;25

Dr. Mona

And you’re like, if you just saw what we see, I don’t think you’d have that same feeling. Because when you have patient after patient after patient, having that in front of you, which you all like, when I think about, I don’t know how long your wife has been practicing, but I like you said at the beginning of this conversation, I have not seen a lot of these vaccine preventable illnesses because I have been only in training and practice for 14 years total, and that’s a blessing.

 

00;32;21;28 – 00;32;39;10

Dr. Mona

I am so grateful that I have not had to smell rotavirus or manage rotavirus dehydration. And so then. But even though I know that, I think about my colleagues, you know, I’m so blessed to have the training and the, the leadership of my colleagues who’ve been doing this more than me that say, hey, look, it was much different.

 

00;32;39;10 – 00;32;49;19

Dr. Mona

God bless. Or you know, what we have been given here with science of like this advancements. And so it’s just people are not always seeing that. And that is that is so hard though.

 

00;32;49;19 – 00;33;05;23

Dr. Paul Offit

You’re right. I think that that when the ACIp sort of or the HHS wasn’t even the ACIp sort of came up with their quote unquote, new schedule. I mean, the first thing I thought of was because I trained in pediatrics late 70s, my wife of late 80s, but that’s before the road. A tech vaccine came out in 2006.

 

00;33;06;18 – 00;33;25;22

Dr. Paul Offit

You know, our, our hospital was were full of kids with with severe dehydration because I think what people don’t remember or don’t realize, rotavirus was a vomiting illness. You couldn’t rehydrate children because you couldn’t give them the frequent sips of fluid that your pediatrician was recommending, you know, with sugar or electrolytes because they were vomiting and vomiting.

 

00;33;25;22 – 00;33;43;13

Dr. Paul Offit

And that’s why it was such a rapidly dehydrating illness. I mean, I trained the children in Pittsburgh, but we would see 400 children, babies typically 6 to 24 months of age with with severe dehydration. Not fun. And I can only imagine the people who said, well, you can get this vaccine or not, had no experience with that virus.

 

00;33;43;16 – 00;34;02;01

Dr. Mona

And so, like I think about the advancements that I’ve seen in my in my career so far, obviously we have talked about Covid coming. You know, obviously that was happening happening acutely when that that became a novel virus that entered the population. But for using that example, I think of RSV. Right. You know, for me, training RSV, we called it RSV season.

 

00;34;02;01 – 00;34;22;17

Dr. Mona

We didn’t even call it viral season. Right. The wards, like you just mentioned for, rota covered with children. Right. Whether it was on the inpatient floor, the ICU, healthy babies, children with underlying medical conditions. So when the RSV antibody came out or the RSV vaccine for pregnant, for pregnant people, it was such a celebration, right?

 

00;34;22;17 – 00;34;45;11

Dr. Mona

I was like, this is amazing. Science. Like like, this is so exciting. And like, again, you nerd out, you look at the data and then after it came out, you look at all the supporting information, right? Not only clinically, but also from the information of like the reduction of severe disease. And like that is just such, again, a beautiful thing when people can celebrate medical progress.

 

00;34;45;11 – 00;35;04;14

Dr. Mona

And I think for me and I don’t you I don’t know if you follow a lot of my content, but I am very centrist in terms of my I am an osteopathic physician, so I love the home remedies. I love acupuncture, I love all of that alternative medicine. But I also celebrate modern medicine and what it’s given us, and that can exist together.

 

00;35;04;14 – 00;35;23;02

Dr. Mona

And that is such a awesome thing. When I can meet a family and teach a family that it’s not black or white, you can have both of these things and celebrate the alternative remedies, but also know that, hey, I have this RSV antibody or this vaccine that can really reduce my child’s risk of getting, like you said, severe disease or in a morgue.

 

00;35;23;02 – 00;35;41;28

Dr. Mona

And why not do it for yourself? And so that is my modern pediatrician story of like seeing something happen and how good it can do for the world. And it has been I mean, it’s just we had the mildest RSV season here in Florida thanks to that antibody, because RSV season is in the summer and it’s just been a blessing.

 

00;35;41;28 – 00;36;05;11

Dr. Mona

Like we’re keeping kids out of the hospital. That means more families can be seen for other reasons. Like people don’t understand that this is a health care system issue, too. It’s not about just you. It’s about your peer. It’s about health care resources. It’s about keeping kids out of the hospital. It’s about keeping those doctors and clinicians and staff available for other health care issues that are not vaccine preventable.

 

00;36;05;11 – 00;36;08;24

Dr. Mona

And that’s the beautiful thing about vaccines. I love it.

 

00;36;08;26 – 00;36;34;18

Dr. Paul Offit

Now. It’s you know, I was speaking to a physician group in Kansas City recently, and they said just the same thing you just said was they can’t believe the RSV season, that they’re not seeing the shots. It’s really the first year we had both the maternal vaccine and the monoclonal antibody for infants. And there’s the CDC put out a report which they didn’t publicize because like they were told not to publicize it, but that showed that there was at least a 50% reduction in hospitalizations for the less than three month old.

 

00;36;34;26 – 00;36;47;04

Dr. Paul Offit

So great. So so this makes life so much easier and so much better for those children. And yet, you know, we we make that that RSV is like I think for high risk groups. I don’t even know what that means because everybody’s a high risk.

 

00;36;47;07 – 00;37;08;07

Dr. Mona

And especially when we see that healthy, healthy babies are getting super sick. And that’s what that recommendation really got me upset because of. I have been giving the RSV antibody to healthy babies, because healthy babies end up in the hospital because there’s no risk factor profile for RSV anymore. Like for you know, there wasn’t it with we had synergies, which is obviously for our preterm babies.

 

00;37;08;07 – 00;37;39;27

Dr. Mona

But this before this which is the, you know, nursery maybe a lip, the newer one that was for everyone, which I’ve always wanted because I’m like, hey, I’ve been seeing this. And so again, just it’s really important our listeners hear that, that not only from your experience having been in the profession, for the years that you have and also the expertise you’ve lended, in development of a rotavirus vaccine, you saw a problem, you got into development, and you created something amazing for me, just watching that happen has just been so, so much of a celebration again for what science is capable of.

 

00;37;39;27 – 00;37;42;15

Dr. Mona

And I just think it’s so important for families to see that.

 

00;37;42;18 – 00;37;45;04

Dr. Paul Offit

That thank you to 26 years.

 

00;37;45;06 – 00;37;46;02

Dr. Mona

Yeah.

 

00;37;46;05 – 00;37;53;26

Dr. Paul Offit

If we ate the strains that, became that vaccine, but it certainly worked. So that’s kind.

 

00;37;53;28 – 00;38;14;07

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show. Oh, I love it. And, you know, going on to that, you’ve helped develop life saving vaccines. And I’m going to say life saving, hospital saving, you know, money saving because parents don’t have to be in the hospital, which obviously with the road a tech and have live this history.

 

00;38;14;07 – 00;38;31;02

Dr. Mona

And we’ve talked all about that just on a personal level. How does it feel? Just I want to hear from like you as a feeling person, to see vaccines become what they’ve had from the administration, from this misinformation on social media. After dedicating your career to this work.

 

00;38;31;04 – 00;38;54;22

Dr. Paul Offit

It breaks my heart, independent of whether or not I had dedicated my work to creating rotavirus, because I think for me, it was, it’s it’s I just see myself, I think, as many pediatricians do, is as trying to, to take care of children who I think I think what happened to me, I think, is because I was in a polio ward for about six weeks as a child, and I saw, you know, the children.

 

00;38;54;22 – 00;39;09;27

Dr. Paul Offit

It was and it was just a Dickens like experience. I mean, there was only one hour a week my mother could visit me because she was ill with a complication. My brother, my father never visited me because he was traveling salesman. And. And so you’re there alone for six weeks and you’re looking at these children are amongst children attraction.

 

00;39;09;27 – 00;39;29;09

Dr. Paul Offit

And I think that experience, was scarring and I think it, the, I think the scars of our childhood invariably become the patches of our adulthood. So for me, when I see children suffering it, it’s, it’s something that I saw as a five year old that really is triggering for me. And it’s so upsetting to me when I see children put it in harm’s way.

 

00;39;29;09 – 00;39;46;03

Dr. Paul Offit

Those two little girls who were not in my senses, I just want to cry that they they had to lose their lives because of, frankly, their parents made the choice not to vaccinate them, in large part because of the misinformation that they’ve heard from people like Robert F Kennedy Jr, who’s been putting up bad information for 20 years now.

 

00;39;46;05 – 00;40;02;06

Dr. Mona

I love what you said about the scars of childhood. Become the things that you fight for in adulthood. That is like probably one of the most quotable phrases you’ve said today. And, you know, I, I think about my childhood, I think about residency when people ask why I’m so pro vaccines and are you getting paid by big Pharma?

 

00;40;02;06 – 00;40;21;02

Dr. Mona

And I’m like, no, because let’s use some common sense here. Using the RSV example, we are not seeing patients because we give this vaccine. If I wanted to see patients and make money, I wouldn’t give them these preventable illnesses. But in residencies, you know those stories, right? Like I have two that come to mind. One of them was a cancer patient.

 

00;40;21;02 – 00;40;42;14

Dr. Mona

Like the story you said of that beautiful little boy. He was he was in the chemotherapy. He was still attending school. He couldn’t get live vaccines. And one of them was chickenpox. Right. Because you can’t get chickenpox when you’re undergoing chemo. And he ended up contracting chickenpox from his up here at school and ended up dying from disseminated chickenpox and not for cancer.

 

00;40;42;16 – 00;40;56;10

Dr. Mona

And that won’t ever I won’t I won’t say his name, but that won’t ever leave my head. Like ever in my all my years. I will see that face. I will see us resuscitating him in the pic you I will see all the pressors. For anyone who is not familiar with a lot of pressure is anything to just increase your blood pressure.

 

00;40;56;15 – 00;41;13;28

Dr. Mona

All the things we had to do and how much we all cried when he died because he died from a vaccine preventable illness that appeared to not get. And then the other story that comes to mind is a toddler whose parents did not vaccinate, and the child, got him meningitis and ended up having what we thought was febrile seizures.

 

00;41;13;28 – 00;41;37;10

Dr. Mona

Right? Because we’re like, she’s not. Yep. Meningitis isn’t common for us, right? And we’re like, this isn’t right. I’m like, we need to get a tap. And ended up having him and ended up surviving, but had lifelong complications with neurological symptoms, hearing loss, brain deficits. And through my residency, I kept in touch with that family even though they didn’t vaccinate.

 

00;41;37;10 – 00;42;05;15

Dr. Mona

You know, people think that I don’t, you know, oh, doctors must not care. We care so deeply about whether you choose to vaccinate or not, but we will also care for you if you choose to vaccinate or not. And the reality that so many of the the very staunch anti-vax community are not realizing is that when shit hits the fan, and when all that misinformation finally makes it to you, or a friend or a peer and you need help, it’s not going to be the essential oils.

 

00;42;05;15 – 00;42;28;26

Dr. Mona

It’s not going to be the turmeric injections that you’re taking. It’s going to be medical professionals that are going to treat your child without judgment. And we do that every day. We love children so much. Like you said, doctor, off it. Like we want them to be outside doing the developmental capabilities they’re able to do. And it’s so hard when I hear that because I’m like, listen, I just want you to be outside of my hospital.

 

00;42;28;26 – 00;42;46;00

Dr. Mona

I don’t want to see you in my office. Like, truly, I have I’m so busy. I want you to be running around doing what you need to do. And I think that’s just so important for people to hear. And if you’re listening to this and you’re like, I agree, share it so people can hear that message for, you know, both myself and doctor Offit are sharing now.

 

00;42;46;00 – 00;43;01;16

Dr. Paul Offit

You know, you mention meningitis when I remember I trained in the late 70s. So, we would have these emergency department shifts. We were on 12 on, 12 off. So I was on 12 hours off. And so this is before the Hib vaccine is before the conjugate pneumococcal vaccines, before the vaccine. I would do 2 or 3 spinal tap tonight.

 

00;43;01;23 – 00;43;11;18

Dr. Paul Offit

Yeah. Now pediatric pediatricians, and, you know, inpatient pediatricians in our hospital generally don’t do spinal taps. Usually it’s interventional radiology that does it because they’re just not that used to doing it.

 

00;43;11;20 – 00;43;30;18

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And my husband said the same thing. He teaches residents at the hospital and they do have pediatric patients. And he’s like just because of just, again, because of vaccines. The kids, the my residents are not getting experience with learning how to do taps. God bless. Like I’m saying, like this is this is great. We don’t want to do invasive procedures if we don’t need it, but we have to to protect your children.

 

00;43;30;18 – 00;43;47;29

Dr. Mona

And that’s all. That’s what this all is about. And you know, my last question for you, of course I want to talk to you for so long, but, I just so appreciate you. You taking the time today. What do you wish people who are opposed to vaccines and those who are unsure, hesitant, just can truly understand about where we are right now with vaccines and children’s health?

 

00;43;47;29 – 00;43;51;26

Dr. Mona

And what would you say to those people as a final, uplifting message?

 

00;43;52;21 – 00;44;06;05

Dr. Paul Offit

I think our job as parents is to put children in the safest position possible, and vaccines provide that safety. And to realize that a choice not to get a vaccine is not a risk free choice. It’s a choice to take a different and more serious risk. And you never think it’s going to happen to you. You don’t.

 

00;44;06;05 – 00;44;32;20

Dr. Paul Offit

If you listen to these parent activist groups like Families Fighting Flu, Meningitis, Angels National Manager Association, those parents are all at some point made a decision not to vaccinate, their children suffered or died from a vaccine preventable disease. And then God bless them, they saw this as a as a calling where they would then get out there and try and explain to other parents about how important it is to vaccinate, about how deadly disease can be, but they all tell the same story.

 

00;44;32;22 – 00;44;45;25

Dr. Paul Offit

I can’t believe this happened to me until it happens to you, because we have this sort of myth of of of, invulnerability. I mean, my children, not surprisingly, are fully vaccinated, but never would I imagine they could ever suffer these diseases. It’s too horrible to imagine.

 

00;44;46;08 – 00;45;05;16

Dr. Mona

As our mind, you know, and I think there’s, there’s always that misinformation that goes around that pediatricians don’t vaccinate their kids. And I’m like I don’t know who you’re talking to, but I don’t know a single pediatrician that’s not a grifter. Online that has sold their soul to, you know, book deals and anti-vax conferences that doesn’t that vax that doesn’t vaccinate their children.

 

00;45;05;16 – 00;45;25;13

Dr. Mona

You know, I mean, I did the same on schedule for both my beautiful babies. I recommend it for my families. I have beautifully growing children that misinformation that kids with vaccines have more health outcomes, negative health outcomes like allergies and asthma and eczema is not true. There’s so many layers to health, but I completely agree with that.

 

00;45;25;13 – 00;45;35;15

Dr. Mona

And I do have one more question. I lied. So, you know, as we close, what keeps you engaged in this work and what still gives you hope about where vaccine conversations in America could go?

 

00;45;35;18 – 00;45;57;13

Dr. Paul Offit

You know, I think it’s what I mentioned earlier. I see this as a mission for me. I mean, that’s why despite the hate mail, occasional death threats, all the the negative attention, I mean, you mentioned earlier that I was on the FDA vaccine advisory committee. I was on the FDA vaccine. Yes, until RFK junior took me off, which was just I was I was on for eight years and they asked me to be on another four years.

 

00;45;57;13 – 00;46;13;06

Dr. Paul Offit

I agreed, I was on the agenda and then he he personally took me off, whereas he fired the whole ACP. He only took me off the, the FDA vaccine Advisory Committee, which I take, is a badge of honor. I’m glad I’m getting on his nerves, but, you know, I so I just think it’s it’s it’s anger at some point.

 

00;46;13;06 – 00;46;28;19

Dr. Paul Offit

I mean, anger is what drives me because I just feel myself as being one of the people responsible for those two little girls who died. And we just have to. You just have to constantly fight to fight that. RFK junior is in the position he’s in. I will be doing this no matter how much hate mail I get until he’s gone.

 

00;46;28;20 – 00;46;51;26

Dr. Mona

Thank you for fueling your anger into action and advocacy. That is what I love. That is how we change things. So I love to see that and I’ve seen that in you. Doctor Offit, thank you so much for joining me. I mean, this was such a great conversation. Not only like I said earlier, do I respect you as a fellow clinician, but also the work you do for vaccines, for educating in a very real way, in a non shameful way?

 

00;46;51;26 – 00;46;59;29

Dr. Mona

Right. You are not saying that you’re a bad person for not vaccinate, but you’re giving facts. You’re explaining exactly what we need to do. So thank you so much for joining me.

 

00;47;00;04 – 00;47;04;07

Dr. Paul Offit

Thanks for asking. My pleasure.

 

00;47;04;10 – 00;47;41;15

Dr. Mona

Before we close, I want to name the biggest takeaway from this conversation and one I deeply respect from Doctor Offit. As a child, he spent time in the hospital, and he saw the polio wards he saw with these illnesses due to kids when vaccines didn’t exist. And that experience shaped his entire career and his urgency. Now he said something so powerful vaccines are a victim of their own success because we don’t see polio as much measles as we used to, or severe rotavirus anymore, we assume vaccines aren’t necessary, but the reason we don’t see those illnesses is because vaccines did their job, and the goal is not to bring those illnesses back.

 

00;47;41;17 – 00;48;03;21

Dr. Mona

So if this episode helped put that into perspective, please subscribe to the show. Download this episode and those actions help keep evidence based conversations visible. And of course, sharing matters too. We post clips every Wednesday and Friday, so share those posts and tag us PedsDocTalk the PedsDocTalk podcast. And at Paul Offit, MD, ul Offit, MD.

 

00;48;03;24 – 00;48;10;14

Dr. Mona

So this message reaches more families. Just thanks for being here and for caring about protecting kids and the progress we’ve made.