Today I sat down to talk about something I think about a lot…the crunchy mom movement. Why are so many families walking away from traditional healthcare unheard? Caitlyn Shollmeier, a certified nurse midwife and founder of Lila Maternity, joins me to dig into why this is not really about essential oils or cloth diapers. When women do not feel like a person in the room any more they lose trust and feel like just another number on a chart.

Caitlyn shared her own birth story with twins that stuck with me. She felt dismissed by almost her entire care team, except for one nurse who took the time to listen. That relationship changed her birth story. It is a good reminder that as clinicians, the small stuff, like explaining what is happening and why, is never actually small.

We discuss: 

• Why the crunchy mom movement is growing and what is usually underneath it

• How shame and lack of time in modern health care push families toward alternative spaces

• The difference between correcting misinformation and actually building trust

• Why compassion works better than fact checking when someone feels dismissed

• How to spot red flags in online parenting communities

• Caitlyn’s own birth story and that one nurse who changed everything

• What real informed consent should sound like in a room

To connect with Caitlyn Schollmeier follow her on TikTok @themodernmidwife and check out her laborwear line: ⁠https://www.wearlila.com⁠ 

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00;00;34;06 – 00;00;55;10

Dr. Mona

Welcome back to the show. I’m Doctor Mona, and before we get into today’s conversation, thank you for continuing to support the show. Whether you’re listening every week, sharing an episode with a friend, or watching us over on YouTube, it truly helps us keep these conversations going. I can’t have a podcast if nobody wants to listen to it, so thank you so very much.

00;00;55;12 – 00;01;19;03

Dr. Mona

This episode feels especially important to me because we’re watching trust in health care change, and as a physician, I don’t think we can talk about medical misinformation or parents moving away from conventional medicine without also being willing to ask why they’re doing it. When you hear the term crunchy mom, what comes to mind? Cloth diapers? Essential oils? Avoiding medications or vaccines?

00;01;19;05 – 00;01;38;11

Dr. Mona

But what if, for some parents, becoming crunchy isn’t where the story starts? What if it starts with a birth where they felt ignored? An appointment where their questions were dismissed? Or a health care system that made them, or their family, or their parents made them feel like a number instead of a person. And that’s why they became crunchy.

00;01;38;13 – 00;02;03;11

Dr. Mona

Because if we want parents to trust health care, we also have to be willing to look at the ways health care has lost some of that trust. Today’s guest is Caitlin Shomer, a certified nurse midwife, mom and founder of Lila maternity. Caitlin has worked across maternal health care as a labor and delivery nurse, birth doula and certified nurse midwife, including in-hospital birth center and home birth settings.

00;02;03;13 – 00;02;36;03

Dr. Mona

So she has seen this conversation from many different angles. We’re talking about how healthcare mistrust can fuel the crunchy mom movement, how shame and dismissal can push people further away from medical care, where online communities can be supportive and where they can become harmful. And what health care professionals can do differently. And if you’ve ever wanted to ask questions about conventional medicine without being labeled anti medicine or crunchy, or wanted to use something more holistic without throwing evidence out the window, this conversation is for you.

00;02;36;05 – 00;02;59;04

Dr. Mona

Make sure your subscribe wherever you’re listening, and if you’re watching on YouTube, hit subscribe there to download the episode, share it on social and tag at the PedsDocTalk podcast at PedsDocTalk, the Modern Midwife on TikTok or at Lila Dot labor. Where on Instagram that’s Lila Dot labor where so we can see what resonated with you.

00;02;59;07 – 00;03;09;02

Dr. Mona

Let’s get into this amazing conversation about the Crunchy Mom movement.

00;03;09;04 – 00;03;11;09

Dr. Mona

Thank you so much for joining me today, Caitlin.

00;03;11;09 – 00;03;13;05

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And cause I’m happy to be here.

00;03;13;08 – 00;03;31;28

Dr. Mona

Well, this has been a conversation that we’ve had to reschedule and schedule and reschedule and schedule. Such is life. Being busy mom, entrepreneur. And for anyone who’s not familiar with who you are. Tell us more about the work you do as a certified nurse midwife. And what prompted you or inspired you to find Lila maternity?

00;03;32;00 – 00;03;56;03

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Absolutely. Yeah. So, I’m a certified nurse midwife, practice, with, clinic out near Nashville, Tennessee. And, do women’s health as well as prenatal care, the whole spectrum, from, you know, first period all the way through post menopause and, have been always very passionate about women’s health since I was 18 years old and since I first shadowed a midwife a long time ago.

00;03;56;05 – 00;04;23;17

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And, in my journey to become a midwife, I actually, kind of, you know, got into the different ways of supporting families. And one of the ways that I supported families was, creating products that were, you know, helpful and conducive for them to have a sort of warmer or more comfortable birthing experience. And so that’s kind of where Lila maternity and my Lila labor wear line came from is, creating a birth clothing line that people can wear in labor that makes until more comfortable and gives them more privacy.

00;04;23;17 – 00;04;36;05

Caitlyn Schollmeier

It kind of all goes together with my overarching mission, which is really just to, help families have a better experience and a better transition from, you know, before baby pregnancy and into parenthood.

00;04;36;07 – 00;05;00;10

Dr. Mona

Oh, I love this. And I love, you know, when we were deciding on the conversation for today and you had mentioned something about this crunchy mom movement and, you know, you being a certified nurse midwife, being, practitioner, obviously in this space, seeing women at their most vulnerable, you know, when they’re pregnant, postpartum. I thought it was just a really good conversation to just be honest and transparent about how, again, we can improve this for everybody.

00;05;00;10 – 00;05;30;13

Dr. Mona

And many people think of the crunchy mom movement as just a lifestyle choice cloth diapers, essential oils and so on. And many women can get kind of typecast in that. But underneath there’s often a deeper story that may be there about distrust, disillusionment with the health care system that push someone into that sort of movement. From your perspective as a midwife and mom, do you think that this exists, and why do you think the crunchy mom movement is resonating so widely right now?

00;05;30;16 – 00;06;01;02

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Yes. I mean, over the last ten years, I think I’ve done more and more sort of down a rabbit hole of kind of seeing really how, significant and impactful it is for a lot of families because, you know, with my experience of, you know, been in maternal health and different capacities over the last ten years, you know, I’ve been a nurse, I’ve been a birth doula, you know, following patients from beginning of pregnancy all the way through the end and getting very personal with that and working as a certified nurse midwife in every setting, you know, hospital, birth center, home birth setting.

00;06;01;04 – 00;06;24;07

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And so, you see, you know, the medical side and you see sort of the other side of the spectrum, the you know, the more like crunchy, you know, holistic sort of communities. And, what I’ve noticed is that I think a lot of families really want agency and they want safety in their birth experience, especially in the United States, where, you know, there’s a lot of scary stories out there.

00;06;24;07 – 00;06;54;09

Caitlyn Schollmeier

There’s, also some scary statistics. You know, with our, like, maternal mortality rate being as high as it is. And I think the sort of crunchy mom movement appeals to that. And I think parents can, you know, start to kind of get interested in a more holistic approach. That’s I mean, really what the whole midwifery model is based on is, you know, let’s try some more natural things or let’s try some, you know, talking about the root cause before we move on to medication or surgery or, whatever might be needed.

00;06;54;12 – 00;07;12;11

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And so being a midwife, I’ve seen that where you can, you know, kind of sort of dabble in that, but then sort of almost go down this pipeline of, you know, the crunchy, you know, all the crunchy stuff. And, you can take it pretty far, I think, because it provides a lot of that validation and that security that people are looking for.

00;07;12;14 – 00;07;40;22

Dr. Mona

Yeah. I, you know, for me, obviously I’m seeing families after the birthing process. Right. Whether it’s in the hospital, rounding on the babies or in my office. And, you know, I’m obviously seeing this perspective of when you look at it like vaccine education or the things that are happening postpartum, for that baby. And from the healthcare side, I think one of the biggest services that has been done, and this is a not a one person problem, this is not like a, I’m not blaming one one thing.

00;07;40;22 – 00;08;03;19

Dr. Mona

It’s a perfect storm of the lack of time clinicians have in the modern healthcare system leaves many women and families feeling like no one’s listening to me, or that they’re just churning and burning, and that I don’t feel like a patient. I feel like a number. I feel like someone that’s just passing through the office. And so when you feel like that, you’re going to go find where you feel like you fit in.

00;08;03;26 – 00;08;25;07

Dr. Mona

You’re going to find maybe that the community that says, you know what? I felt the same way, and here’s what we’re doing, and here’s some alternative things that we can do. And then it’s the health care system that not all clinicians and I want to be clear, but many clinicians, I think are so evidence based, which I think is awesome, but to the point that they can’t open their mind to conversation.

00;08;25;12 – 00;08;49;17

Dr. Mona

That may be alternatives, right? Like, say, even if the evidence says that using an example that home birth can be more risky than a C-section or a hospital birth. Okay, but are we having conversations? I had a hospital birth. It didn’t go great, okay, like I was, but I had postpartum complications. I had a lot of issues. And then I see a lot of people have home births that are really great, you know, that do well and that love it.

00;08;49;17 – 00;09;23;15

Dr. Mona

And so I think we’ve created such a black and white that if you do this, it’s bad. If you do this, it’s bad. And if you don’t do this, then why are you coming to me? And I think that combination of shame, that combination of lack of time and that combination of wanting families, wanting to be listened to but are having to be pushed away, whether it’s a clinician’s own perspective that doesn’t make sense, but not talking about it, you know, is what I think a lot of this sort of modern healthcare system has pushed people to find a find a place where they feel like they belong.

00;09;23;17 – 00;09;41;08

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Absolutely. I agree, I think shame plays a huge role in that. And sometimes I think we can even, you know, as providers can lose sight of what we’re saying that can come across that way to patients. And even just a simple change of words and the way that we communicate with our patients can, you know, change for the better or for the worse.

00;09;41;08 – 00;10;09;26

Caitlyn Schollmeier

You know, I like to talk a lot about instead of, you know, bad choices and good choices. You know, it’s it’s a lot about risk tolerance, I think. And. Yeah, but everybody has a different risk tolerance. And, I tell my patients a lot of times when, I take them on and especially, you know, if I have a patient who, you know, has expressed some of that disillusionment with the healthcare system is that, you know, I warned them in advance that one of the things that’s important to me as a provider is to make sure that they understand all of the risks and all of the benefits.

00;10;09;26 – 00;10;32;26

Caitlyn Schollmeier

I’m not telling you these things because I’m trying to convince you of one way or the other, but I need to feel as your provider, as somebody who’s been, you know, tasked with safeguarding your pregnancy, that you are as aware as I can make you and then you can decide what you are comfortable with and what your risk tolerance is, because everybody is different.

00;10;32;29 – 00;10;51;02

Dr. Mona

And that is that is the truth of anything that we do. Right? I mean, and I, you know, as someone who is pro public health pro, you know, a lot of, you know, I talk about vaccines, I talk about a lot of different things here. It it does come down to, like you said, knowing what the benefit and risk of a situation is having that healthy communication.

00;10;51;08 – 00;11;16;09

Dr. Mona

Of course, there are situations where the decisions you make may impact others, and that’s going into like vaccines. And but I think it’s important to talk about the why. I think it’s important to say, here’s what we know. With little shame, like you said. And it’s become because of burnout, because of lack of time. I see this in my colleagues, and I was there to at some point before I reduced my hours and found, you know, a little bit help with my burnout of like, oh, I have a question about vaccines.

00;11;16;09 – 00;11;32;21

Dr. Mona

Shut down, shut down. This is not going anywhere. Versus tell me what you have a question about. Tell me where you heard that from. Let’s talk about your feelings and let me then present to you what I think is important for you to know as a mother, as a pediatrician, as a midwife, so that we can get the best care for your child.

00;11;32;24 – 00;12;02;29

Dr. Mona

And I think that’s so important. And, you know, we both know that the U.S. has some of the highest maternal mortality rates in the developed world. And so many parents walk away from birth feeling dismissed, traumatized, not wanting to do this. Like they’re like, well, I had one kid and I can’t even imagine doing it again. How do you see the failures of the maternal health care system contributing to this sort of cynicism, distrust, in some cases pushing parents towards a very extreme, hyper holistic community?

00;12;03;02 – 00;12;27;09

Caitlyn Schollmeier

I think that those statistics play a huge role. You know, we know that the maternal mortality rates, like you said, one of the highest in the developed world, we know that, you know, one out of every three parents are women that go through a birth experience can or likely to report it as traumatic. Yeah. You know, 75% of people who get an A physiognomy will report that they weren’t told about it or that they weren’t.

00;12;27;13 – 00;12;48;21

Caitlyn Schollmeier

You know, given, informed consent about it before they received one. And so I think we also, you know, we hear stories from women, that’s shared on social media and on social media, the algorithms, they push out that inflammatory content more than anything else. And those stories are so much more emotionally engaging than facts coming from a provider.

00;12;48;24 – 00;13;21;06

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And so, you know, I think we have this sort of really terrible recipe for, just like lots of lots of fear. And then you’ve got this, like, such an appealing community where there is, you know, value there, right? We have unity. There’s resources that we share as women, and there’s something very beautiful about that. But at the same time, you can get sucked up into that, especially when, you know, emotion and connection is involved there, when maybe it’s not as present in the clinical environment with your provider.

00;13;21;08 – 00;13;40;11

Caitlyn Schollmeier

So, you know, I think one of the things that we need to, you know, think about is as providers is how do we sow trust and how do we build connection, even though we’re limited, you know, on our time frame, like what you were just saying about, you know, having this sort of in-depth conversation and, you know, exploring those feelings in 30 minute appointments.

00;13;40;12 – 00;13;59;00

Caitlyn Schollmeier

I know, especially for prenatal, you know, we have 15 minute appointments and we’ve got to do all these other things and blood pressure and listen to the baby’s heartbeat and measure and all of that, you know, how do you get that done? And so I do think that there needs to be, you know, some sort of supplementary, you know, effort happening on the part of health care workers.

00;13;59;02 – 00;14;17;09

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And currently right now, in my view, this is my opinion. But currently I’m seeing, you know, our us oftentimes directing our efforts in the wrong direction, you know, on social media, for example, and very present there and, you know, I see things that I think we’re kind of maybe missed stepping on a little bit.

00;14;17;15 – 00;14;22;24

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And do you see that coming from creators that are not in the medical field or also in the medical field?

00;14;22;26 – 00;14;35;25

Caitlyn Schollmeier

You know, I well, I see it on both sides. Of course I think. Yeah. And completely different. They, they present completely different problems. Right? Yes. It’s, almost like to me, I almost feel like I’m in the middle of this war, you know, that’s happening.

00;14;35;25 – 00;14;36;18

Dr. Mona

I know.

00;14;36;21 – 00;15;03;21

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And you see, you know, creators on the more holistic, you know, crunchy side of things, that are sharing their views and their perspectives and then you have as health care workers that are like sort of fighting the misinformation. And I get that impulse right. I understand that impulse. But I also feel like in a way it can sort of maybe be hurting, the perception of just the average patient who’s, you know, exploring these communities and maybe on that pipeline.

00;15;03;21 – 00;15;18;08

Caitlyn Schollmeier

I don’t think necessarily that that approach is maybe the best way to bring them back to a place where we can we can balance, you know, the holistic side of things and, you know, all of that nice stuff with also evidence based care.

00;15;18;12 – 00;15;36;21

Dr. Mona

Yeah, I mean, I, I resonate so deeply. I’m an osteopathic physician. And part of our training is this mind body, spirit approach to medicine. I obviously value my MD colleagues a lot, but this is something that’s very unique. If you meet a doe, you’re going to know their D.O. versus an MD, especially in primary care because they are by bedside manner.

00;15;36;21 – 00;15;54;18

Dr. Mona

I all me quite, quite frank. Every day I meet who’s in primary care tends to be very open about other things. And I’m using my example. I’m pro acupuncture. As long as people know the benefits and risks. I did acupuncture during my IVF, I still do it. I even if the research does, even if there’s no strong evidence, I know that it’s been used for generations.

00;15;54;18 – 00;16;14;06

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And since, like, you know, like so many years that there’s obviously benefit when it’s used in so many different cultures. And even when I use acupuncture and I talk about it, there’s a, you know, we like we’re talking about here, there’s such there’s such a black and white that when you think about the pro evidence, people that I’ve been mentioning at the beginning, well, there’s no evidence to support.

00;16;14;06 – 00;16;30;18

Dr. Mona

Okay. But even if there’s no evidence, if someone finds the benefit of that and understands the risk, what’s the problem? It’s not hurting anybody else. Right. Exactly. And then you have the other side, which again, I think the terms are crunchy on one side, silky and crunchy. I think those are my my terms. I don’t know.

00;16;30;19 – 00;16;33;05

Caitlyn Schollmeier

I write silky but I don’t know the definition. Yeah.

00;16;33;05 – 00;16;51;18

Dr. Mona

So that’s from what I got from what I’m I’m I’ve read is that. Yeah. Crunchy is this sort of. And it can be very extreme. Right. It’s this like I’m not doing anything. Yeah, yeah. Like I’m just going to do no vaccines. No, only organic foods, cloth diapers, essential oils. And then you have silky. That’s like I’m doing everything evidence based.

00;16;51;18 – 00;17;09;03

Dr. Mona

And then you have, I think, which is me and you, which are scrunchie moms that are like, I like both. I, I also look at ingredients. I also think that it’s important to look at Ayurvedic medicine or look at, you know, things that are not always mainstream pills before we go to a prescription. I mean, this is how I practice medicine.

00;17;09;03 – 00;17;36;06

Dr. Mona

And I think the sad reality is that both sides have become less centrist. Right? We we need more centrist ism in how we view health care. And that is for the clinician. And I think as also a consumer like don’t, don’t say that you’ll never do this because you may find yourself in a position where your child’s in the hospital needing I.V. antibiotics and, and, immunizations and you, you preached your whole life that you wouldn’t, you know, or you.

00;17;36;06 – 00;17;36;26

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Exactly.

00;17;37;03 – 00;17;52;10

Dr. Mona

Or you could be a doctor that’s like, I’m, I’m not allowing my my patient to have a really good access to a care because I don’t have evidence. And I’m stuck in this sort of pigeonhole of like, well, then I’m not going to recommend it. We’re not opening our minds to look at both, which I think so awful.

00;17;52;14 – 00;17;57;27

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And I think it’s that’s a very good point that you make and that you know, it’s almost like we have to go through a whole identity crisis.

00;17;57;29 – 00;17;58;19

Dr. Mona

To.

00;17;58;21 – 00;18;19;03

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Make the decision that maybe deep down, we know we need to make because we have locked ourselves into something and that’s become a part of who we are. And, you know, that’s like a whole psychological, you know, journey for some people. And sometimes we don’t really have the the time or the ability to, you know, change our thoughts in our minds in those moments.

00;18;19;06 – 00;18;51;16

Caitlyn Schollmeier

So, yeah, keeping an open mind I think is really important. And I like what you said about, you know, oh, yeah, there might not be a lot of evidence on acupuncture, but there’s also, I think, something good about being able to recognize that we don’t know everything, but also recognize that we know a lot of things that we have a lot of, you know, good tools and information that we can use and that we should use, especially when, you know, the situation permits and when it is most appropriate, because there are times when you know those remedies are not going to they’re not going to do anything, they’re not going to pack a punch.

00;18;51;18 – 00;18;59;21

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And being able to discern between when it’s appropriate and when it’s not, I think is really important.

00;18;59;23 – 00;19;07;09

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

00;19;07;12 – 00;19;25;19

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And I again, I’ve, I’ve always felt this way and I, I hope that that can be the movement we all go to, you know on both on both ends of the spectrum to become, you know, again, me a little bit more in the middle because like you said, my fear is that when you when you pigeonhole yourself and I believe this as a mother to write, I never say never.

00;19;25;21 – 00;19;42;00

Dr. Mona

I learn this there being a mother that I’ll never say never because. And I don’t judge women, you know, meaning in terms of like, if someone does this because I don’t know what’s going to happen in my reality. And I think knowing that has been the most humbling and easing experience as a mom, right? That, you know what?

00;19;42;02 – 00;19;57;13

Dr. Mona

I may have to use my resources, I may have to do this, and I want to be open to that because I think it just raises also open minded children to understand, like, hey, let’s look at the facts, like you said, and I, I love that you brought that up that I will never deny fact. Like I will double down on what we do know.

00;19;57;19 – 00;20;17;12

Dr. Mona

But I’ll also be open to saying, you know what, let’s learn more. And I, I use an example that, last fall or last. Yeah. Last fall. The look of Warren autism recommendation was becoming more mainstream. And I had seen that as an as a medication for, you know, severe autism in some cases. And I wanted to learn more about it because I was like, you know what?

00;20;17;15 – 00;20;24;25

Dr. Mona

I don’t know much about it. Let’s learn rather than shut it down. Like, I want to know if this is something useful. And I think more of the medical community needs to do that.

00;20;25;00 – 00;20;44;05

Caitlyn Schollmeier

But I was going to say, I think, and like what I was saying with what I’m seeing on social media and how people are interacting with one another, you know, one thing that my mind always goes back to is when I see creators, not necessarily creators that are saw for extreme on the crunchy side, that are like making money off of supplements.

00;20;44;08 – 00;21;03;19

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Yeah, that’s maybe a little bit of a different situation, but a lot of creators that are just getting on there and, trying to share, you know, ways to avoid birth trauma. And sometimes they’re sharing inaccurate information. I think a lot of times as healthcare providers, we flag that person as the enemy, and we have to, again, correct all of their misinformation.

00;21;03;19 – 00;21;26;15

Caitlyn Schollmeier

What I’m seeing and I see someone that probably, maybe, went through a traumatic birth themselves or felt dismissed within the healthcare system. I see that person as a patient. Right. This is somebody that potentially went through something like that, and didn’t feel heard, or even if, you know, their perception might have that a little bit off, maybe, you know, it was an emergency and what happened needed to happen.

00;21;26;15 – 00;21;46;20

Caitlyn Schollmeier

But then that wasn’t explained to them afterwards. And so there was something that was missed there. And when we as, providers online especially respond to that by just correcting and fact checking and it feels so cold and detached, I think from the viewers perspective, from all the people that are around to sort of watch this sort of back and forth.

00;21;46;22 – 00;22;05;08

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And so I get a lot of criticism online when I go and like make videos and post, with sort of a different approach where people think that I’m, you know, validating people’s feelings, even though they’re not always supported by the evidence. But in my view, there’s a bridge building that can happen there that we’re missing out on.

00;22;05;08 – 00;22;07;23

Caitlyn Schollmeier

There’s you know, we’re not taking that opportunity.

00;22;07;26 – 00;22;24;26

Dr. Mona

And I think you’re right. I mean, I did the prior thing that you mentioned, the sort of more divisive approach during the pandemic and I’ll be honest, it was when I was starting my creative journey. It was when I didn’t know about creation as much as I do now. And obviously it got the clickbait right. It was like it would go viral.

00;22;24;26 – 00;22;44;08

Dr. Mona

And then now I’ve turned more into that compassion piece, right? That I think looking at the shared goal, because when you look at the shared goal, I think everyone wants to have a hopefully nice delivery where they’re not traumatized, where the baby comes out healthy, you know, whatever that is. And I think that’s the shared goal. But everyone has a different perception of how that’s going to look like.

00;22;44;13 – 00;23;08;08

Dr. Mona

And so I think that, it’s it’s important to understand what how we approach that. And like you said, lead with the compassion piece of like, hey, I understand why someone would feel that way. And, you know, I think when parents have a negative or traumatic experience with birth or postpartum care, like I mentioned earlier, it’s natural to want to find a community that sees them, makes them feel safe, and is validating.

00;23;08;12 – 00;23;35;14

Dr. Mona

I mean, that’s the process of healing. Everyone needs the validation. But sometimes, like you mentioned too, those spaces can turn into echo chambers that fuel misinformation or fear or go very polarized. So how would you tell a consumer, like a parent looking at social media, the difference between finding support after you know, and in that way, or getting pulled into some of these extreme spaces in terms of postpartum or child health.

00;23;35;16 – 00;24;01;12

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Yeah. You know, I one thing that one piece of advice I would give people, when it comes to those types of spaces because I think those spaces are valuable. But, you know, how do you recognize when you’re maybe in a little bit of an echo chamber, what are the red flags? And I think any place that’s going to discourage asking questions is one very big red flag, or discourages seeking medical care, or just an exchange of outside opinions.

00;24;01;14 – 00;24;25;03

Caitlyn Schollmeier

You know, I have I’ve seen face that Facebook groups where, you know, certain opinions are moderated and completely hidden and yeah, we need so much less of that. We already have like I said, the algorithms on all these social media platforms that do that without our consent, without our knowledge, oftentimes, you know, just, you know, sort of pumping as of one side of information that we don’t need to be, adding more of that into our lives.

00;24;25;03 – 00;24;45;12

Caitlyn Schollmeier

We need to be seeking out, you know, community spaces where, it’s safe to share all of these different types of perspectives. So I think that’s, that’s one of the most important things. And really acknowledging too, does this space, you know, make me feel fearful, you know, because that, I think is a big red flag as well as if you’re interacting with the space.

00;24;45;12 – 00;25;05;23

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And the more you interact with it, the more afraid of certain things. You’re, you’re, you know, sort of growing to, you know, perceive. I feel like that is not how that should progress, you know, with more information and with those resources and with that community, you should feel more at ease. With all of the options that you have available to you.

00;25;05;26 – 00;25;23;13

Dr. Mona

Oh, I, I love that. It’s like if you met that person in real life, right, that creator. And would you create boundaries with that person, like, again, if the things that they’re saying, like if you had a friend that just kept saying this is harmful and you’re doing this and you’re a horrible mom, and if you don’t do this, would you want that person as a friend?

00;25;23;13 – 00;25;38;26

Dr. Mona

So if you don’t, if you wouldn’t want them as a friend, don’t follow them. Yeah. And I feel that way about health creators too. I mean, I’m not just saying that. I mean, I’m I’m absolutely understanding that this is not just one side that’s causing this issue. It is both sides responsible. And I think we’ve made that perfectly clear.

00;25;38;26 – 00;26;01;00

Dr. Mona

But it’s like if people are following me and they don’t like me as a human being, unfollow me like I, I and I try to be kind and compassionate, but sometimes you’re not going to like what I say. Because then why would you trust that information? Why would you want that information? And that goes to what you just mentioned about any hyper holistic community or any community online that if you’re not feeling good, you’re feeling disrespected.

00;26;01;00 – 00;26;07;03

Dr. Mona

And if it leaves a funny taste in your mouth that you’re like, oh, why does every time I see this person my heart rate go up, check in with yourself?

00;26;07;10 – 00;26;07;20

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Yeah.

00;26;07;20 – 00;26;21;22

Dr. Mona

And unfollow, I see that, yes, yes, you have it. I know I think people forget that they have a very good intuition. And if that is not sitting right, even if that person has a million followers or is like, you know, world renowned, it doesn’t matter if it doesn’t make you feel good.

00;26;21;24 – 00;26;22;16

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Yeah.

00;26;22;19 – 00;26;53;15

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And, you know, a lot, a lot of providers online I want to talk about, like, the provider aspect as well, push back against misinformation by fact checking. But then also with that, like we mentioned, it can come shaming. But that can sometimes drive people further into that distrust that we’re trying to avoid. So what do you think health care providers, and creators who maybe more evidence based or maybe on the side of like, modern medicine, if you will, are getting wrong when they try to address misinformation.

00;26;53;15 – 00;26;57;26

Dr. Mona

And what do you think would work better to create that sort of community and cohesiveness that we need?

00;26;57;29 – 00;27;30;24

Caitlyn Schollmeier

I’d really love to see health care providers on all sides of the spectrum and including, you know, more medical eyes, more evidence based, strictly evidence based, nothing else. Yeah. I’d love to see them. Really looking at, Well, one, I’d love to see them looking at those creators on the other side of the spectrum and maybe see reframing, like I said, earlier and recognizing that, they aren’t necessarily the enemy and that everybody has their own story, and maybe their parenthood journey is over.

00;27;30;24 – 00;27;50;14

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Maybe, you know, it’s been years since they’ve had a baby. But that doesn’t mean that they haven’t had their own past experiences. And there is a personal level of accountability. I think that we as healthcare providers need to sort of take ownership of in that. Obviously we didn’t, you know, maybe harm this person in their care, but our health care system plays a role in it.

00;27;50;14 – 00;28;07;09

Caitlyn Schollmeier

So I think, just having a little bit of reverence for that, I think can help adjust our tone a little bit. And I think also looking for those shared values because like I said, with the exception of certain people that are making money off of, you know, selling supplements and, so they have they have other interests.

00;28;07;11 – 00;28;40;25

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Yeah. I think, a lot of people are really sharing this information just because they want other people to be able to weigh the feelings and the experiences that they had. And so at the end of the day, you know, looking at it like, well, we are both trying to create happy moms, healthy moms, healthy babies. And so using empathy and, you know, adding in that evidence and sort of painting them as the villain, I think it does more for your cause, as some of you sharing online, than it does for them even.

00;28;40;26 – 00;28;56;17

Caitlyn Schollmeier

You know, it’s not that you’re doing them a favor. What you’re doing is you’re painting yourself as someone who can be trusted by the people who you’re trying to connect with because, oh my gosh, it’s so easy to connect with the people who just agree with us, right? But we’re trying to connect with people who don’t agree with us.

00;28;56;17 – 00;29;12;07

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And there’s a persuasive strategy there with connecting with those people. So understanding your audience, and, you know, kind of presenting yourself as that person that can be trusted, I think is the most important change I would love to see.

00;29;12;09 – 00;29;32;09

Dr. Mona

Oh, yeah, it’s human psychology, right? Like how to communicate, how to like, you know, again, get to get get through to those people, even if they differ an opinion. And this is obviously something that transcends all things. Right. Not only how you approach health but politics or, you know, if you have differing religions or any value system that you hold very deeply, if you are holding on to it so deeply, of course you’re going to have feelings about it.

00;29;32;09 – 00;29;51;07

Dr. Mona

And and that’s very natural and human nature. And going back to what you had mentioned earlier about, you know, when you present content, sometimes you get some feedback or maybe some criticism. I’m curious. I imagine you you’re very you seem to be also very centrist, right? That you value evidence based medicine, but also holistic values as well.

00;29;51;12 – 00;29;51;27

Caitlyn Schollmeier

I would say.

00;29;51;27 – 00;29;52;26

Dr. Mona

So, yeah.

00;29;52;26 – 00;29;55;29

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Do you get I would say I’m a crunchy sympathizer.

00;29;56;02 – 00;30;16;01

Dr. Mona

So no, I like that, I like that as am I, as am I, I would you know, first people may not know that but yeah I agree with that. Yeah. So my question is when you have posted things, are you getting pushback from both sides like meaning from evidence based, clinicians or practitioners and also the, you know, the ultra crunchy moms or where are you getting that?

00;30;16;01 – 00;30;36;10

Caitlyn Schollmeier

So so, you know, it depends. Right. Each video is a little different. And that’s the thing is that especially for someone who’s maybe a little bit more in the center, you know, so many of my videos go a little bit more to one side than the other, and you really have to watch a lot to get a full to get the idea that, you know, that I’m there for, you know, all different types of people from all different walks of life.

00;30;36;13 – 00;30;58;20

Caitlyn Schollmeier

But I think, you know, I kind of expect the ones from individuals who are, again, far down that sort of crunchy pipeline because there is distrust there. I know that that exists. But then, you know, the ones that, you know, sort of stand out to me a little bit more is the pushback that I get from individuals who probably do share a lot of the same feelings and opinions that I have.

00;30;58;23 – 00;31;20;21

Caitlyn Schollmeier

But they think that I’m, I’m condoning or, you know, allowing. But I think what they’re missing is that I don’t get to decide what people do. Right. And so I could. Yeah. And come online and be real rigid and real. This is how you’re supposed to do it. And that they think that that would be a more effective strategy of getting someone to not choose free birth.

00;31;20;22 – 00;31;40;16

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Right, to get someone to not, you know, make choices that they find to be dangerous. And I think that’s the thing that I have such a hard time communicating to people that I know. I’ve worked in this field for ten years. That doesn’t work. These individuals that are making these choices, they need to feel heard. They need to feel like they’re understood.

00;31;40;18 – 00;31;51;17

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And if I can’t connect with them in that way because I’m just so rigid with how I present my, you know, perspective, then, I’ve lost them already, you know?

00;31;51;21 – 00;31;57;07

Dr. Mona

And if you can do me a favor for maybe our listeners who may not be familiar, can you describe what free birth means?

00;31;57;10 – 00;32;19;20

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Absolutely. Yeah. So, it’s very different from home birth, right? With home birth, you hire a medical professional or someone who has training and experience, you know, spotting red flags, elevating care. They know what normal looks like. They know what normal doesn’t look like. And it’s a lot safer than a situation where someone would have their baby all on their own and having to essentially manage their own care.

00;32;19;20 – 00;32;27;21

Caitlyn Schollmeier

A lot of women who choose free birth, are, you know, learning how to take their own vital signs or learning how to listen to their own baby and trying to manage their care that way.

00;32;27;26 – 00;32;44;06

Dr. Mona

Yeah. Thank you so much for responding to that. Just because I know we had alluded to that term a few times, and I want to make sure that people who may not be familiar with that are aware that, you know, you are obviously valuing both holistic care and, you yourself are a mom of how many children.

00;32;44;09 – 00;32;48;03

Caitlyn Schollmeier

I have three of twin boys and a girl, and I have one on the way, so. Oh my.

00;32;48;03 – 00;32;56;20

Dr. Mona

Gosh. So yes. Three. Wow. Four and so you obviously a mom, you’ve lived through both high risk and v back pregnancies as well, right?

00;32;56;23 – 00;33;13;24

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Yes. I’ve had a lot of different experiences in my pregnancies. With my twins, I had a very high risk pregnancy, which was very jarring for me as somebody who works again, as at the time I was a birth Tula. So I only ever really worked with low risk pregnancies. So this was a totally different experience than what I was used to.

00;33;13;24 – 00;33;40;12

Caitlyn Schollmeier

I had something called a vasa previa, you know, blood vessel that kind of runs in front of the cervix, making it impossible to deliver a baby safely. That way, if that blood vessel were to rupture, which would almost certainly happen during labor, my babies would bleed out in minutes. And, so I had to be in the hospital for a month waiting on the right timing to have a C-section, which was not something that I had wanted at all.

00;33;40;15 – 00;33;56;12

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And then, with my daughter was very low risk, with the exception of having a prior C-section. And everything in that pregnancy was super normal. And, I got to pursue a vac and have a successful be back. And with this pregnancy, I guess we’re yet to find out.

00;33;56;14 – 00;34;27;18

Dr. Mona

Yes. Congratulations. I think this episode might be going live after the delivery of this baby. So just in case people are like, oh, she may be a mom of four by then. But just wanted to make sure you all know that and follow her journey there. And, you know, as we talk about this sort of this dichotomy and this combination of holistic care as well as evidence based care, how have you personally navigated balancing the two and haves your experiences from your deliveries impacted how you viewed both of those?

00;34;27;18 – 00;34;31;11

Dr. Mona

Or had you always been very centrist in how you approach things?

00;34;31;14 – 00;34;50;20

Caitlyn Schollmeier

You know, I do think that all of my experiences with my own personal, you know, birth journeys and parenthood journeys as well as, you know, having seen all these different areas of the medical field have 100% shaped my view. You know, when I first started out in my career, I was a labor delivery nurse, and I did not understand why anybody didn’t get the upper.

00;34;50;26 – 00;35;11;00

Caitlyn Schollmeier

It didn’t it didn’t make any sense to me. You know, I would never judge somebody for not getting one or, you know, but I just didn’t understand it. It wasn’t until I was a birth doula, and I learned a lot about the history of obstetrics in America. And really, why, like where that came from and how that movement sort of started and that it sort of shifted my opinion.

00;35;11;00 – 00;35;38;09

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And when it came to my own pregnancies, you know, it was I felt the feelings and I think a lot of my patients experienced not knowing anything about what was happening in my body. And, you know, you you can get a certain amount of information that you can use to have conversations with your provider and, you know, make mutual decisions where you feel like you’re a part of that sort of decision making process in your care.

00;35;38;11 – 00;35;59;25

Caitlyn Schollmeier

But when you’re so out of your depth there, that becomes impossible. And then you have to sort of trust these individuals, these strangers. And it is hard when you live in a world where the health care system has the flaws that it does. And so you have to consider, you know, all of the different elements that go into that and whether or not it’s impact, the decision.

00;35;59;27 – 00;36;19;29

Caitlyn Schollmeier

I remember when it came to the timing of my twins, I just I didn’t know if I should be, you know, having a C-section at 34, 35 weeks or if I should wait an extra week. And it was it was keeping me up at night trying to figure out what to do, because I had different opinions coming from different people, and I didn’t know which ones to trust.

00;36;19;29 – 00;36;43;27

Caitlyn Schollmeier

So that was a really great experience. From my perspective as now a midwife, is that I know a lot of what that feels like and how just terrible it feels and feels awful. And I also know what it feels like to have a pregnancy be so boring and so simple. Yeah, that, you know, it’s it’s, I think really shaped my worldview for sure.

00;36;44;00 – 00;37;02;11

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show. Oh yeah. Well, no, thank you for that. And, you know, I, I resonate with it. Obviously I think every experience should shape us. And that’s an important thing if you can learn from experiences and make you better because of it.

00;37;02;11 – 00;37;18;13

Dr. Mona

I think that’s the biggest growth as a human being that we can do, and especially as health care providers and, you know, people who are helping in helping professions, you know, using it for good. And so for me, you know, I, I had always been like, get the vaccine, do vaccines, all of that. And obviously that’s all the routine vaccines.

00;37;18;13 – 00;37;35;00

Dr. Mona

And I still remember when the pandemic hit and the Covid vaccine came out, I was ready to sign up for myself because me and my husband were seeing a lot of adults get super sick. My husband’s in here, doc. He saw the intubations. He saw people his age die and we were like, let’s get this thing. So we got our vaccines, like right away.

00;37;35;07 – 00;37;58;18

Dr. Mona

But when it came to our children, you know, we we hesitated. And, you know, me and my husband are both physicians, evidence based physicians. And I asked, well, like, why are we hesitating? And he’s like, it’s new. And I’m like, I respect that. I respect that, sweetie. And I understand. He said, what do you want to do? And I was like, at that point, it was only out on my family, had my son, and we decided not to because my son had had Covid twice already by the time the vaccine came out.

00;37;58;21 – 00;38;15;11

Dr. Mona

And so when I looked at it, I was like, you know what? He’s had Covid. It was a really bad upper respiratory infection, but he was fine. And we’re going to decide not to get it because he did. He fared well, you know, and I saw that the virus strains were also changing to not be as problematic as they were at the beginning of the pandemic.

00;38;15;11 – 00;38;33;25

Dr. Mona

So that is my reasoning, which I think is levelheaded, reasonable. But what ended up happening, which I know you probably see in the crunchy movement and also the pro evidence based movement, I got a lot of pushback for talking about my story and saying that I didn’t give the Covid vaccine to my son, but by being a evidence based account.

00;38;34;03 – 00;38;51;19

Dr. Mona

And so within the space, I was kind of like, why would she say that? Why would you do that? But I’m just sharing my reality. It doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in the vaccine for kids. I just felt like for our situation, it didn’t make sense because it had Covid. And then, you see, and I, I don’t know if you heard the story and I don’t I don’t want to put her handle because I can’t remember and just for her privacy.

00;38;51;26 – 00;39;15;15

Dr. Mona

But there was a woman who was very pro crunchy movement. I’m talking like always talking about no vaccines, this and that. And she ended up having a medical complication for her child and she was in the eye. The baby was in the ICU and she went through this big journey of becoming more middle ground. And she got a lot of pushback from the crunchy mom movement, like, you were the one saying this, and now you’re giving your kid I.V. antibiotics and you’re doing this.

00;39;15;15 – 00;39;33;17

Dr. Mona

And she shared her story and got so much hate. And I look at those two examples that even within these systems that we are trying to find, again, a more middle ground, people in that own groups are fighting against themselves because it’s not good enough. You’re not Evidence-Based enough. You’re not crunchy, mom. Enough. So where’s that leaving us?

00;39;33;17 – 00;39;56;17

Caitlyn Schollmeier

You know, and and I think it goes back to something that I’ve always felt is the downfall. And also it’s a benefit, you know, of our species, this need to belong somewhere, right? This need to sort of form this identity, I mean, it’s something that it’s foundational to our development, especially in our early adulthood of like, we have to understand who we are and what our labels are.

00;39;56;17 – 00;40;15;25

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And so and I noticed that with Covid, it drove me insane. The way that it’s so quickly became political, so quickly became like this side versus that side. And I remember even at the time, you know, that I had very, very alarmist, you know, clients with my, you know, do a client tell on I’m maybe a little bit less alarmist.

00;40;15;25 – 00;40;31;26

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And so I was, not as concerned those very first days about this or that, you know, and, you know, yeah. I think we could still, you know, I could still attend your birth as long as the hospitals, okay, you know, whatever. And and then later on, it’s like, it almost like, put me on one side of things with them.

00;40;31;26 – 00;40;50;12

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And I’m like, no, it just I didn’t realize that it was there. There’s going to be these lines in the sand. And I think we need more people that have that sort of level headed ability to detach themselves and their identity from the decision making process and just be able to look at what the facts are, and understand that.

00;40;50;12 – 00;41;14;07

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Yeah. Like we talked about in the beginning, you know, everyone’s, values are different and their risk tolerance is different. And like, which risks they’re willing to take, you know, they put different values on those different things. So, recognizing that so that we don’t have to, like we talked about earlier, detach ourselves from our own identity because that is an incredibly psychologically challenging thing to do.

00;41;14;07 – 00;41;26;04

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And for a lot of us, it’s not even really possible to do. We might not be in the place to be able to do that. And you have communities like what you were saying that can cause a lot of shame when someone goes through that transition.

00;41;26;04 – 00;41;27;00

Dr. Mona

Yeah.

00;41;27;03 – 00;41;55;05

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Even if it’s a needed transition. And it’s really unfortunate because. Yeah, then you feel ostracized and sort of rejected from your group and that those groups give us a lot of comfort and a lot of support. And so, you know, personally, I think a good strategy is to try and like you said, be open minded, find groups that are not going to shame you for having differences of opinions or where people are just already organically sharing differences of opinions.

00;41;55;08 – 00;41;58;11

Caitlyn Schollmeier

That are reasonable, right? In your view?

00;41;58;13 – 00;42;30;27

Dr. Mona

Oh very true, I, I’ve loved this conversation. You know, I think it again kind of talked about both both sides, both being responsible because this is not a you did this and that’s why I did this. It’s a hey what has happened here that has brought people to do this. And in my opinion, it’s harmful, as you also said that by doing this, we are really ostracizing a huge population of people that need better care and that the modern health care system, with its many flaws, does provide a lot of good, good care, but at the same point, being open to what other people are thinking and what their value systems are.

00;42;30;27 – 00;42;51;24

Dr. Mona

And so in your opinion, if we want to reduce the number of parents leaving birth traumatized or turning to extremes, change has to happen on both sides. So, right. The health care systems, health creators online and then also patient communities, the crunchy mom movement, all of that. What’s one shift you’d like to see in the health care system and in this whole arena?

00;42;51;26 – 00;42;55;08

Dr. Mona

In the online parent spaces, as well. That would make the biggest difference for you.

00;42;55;11 – 00;43;33;14

Caitlyn Schollmeier

I think if we I think if we made a conscious effort to communicate, just ten, 20% more to start, you know what I mean? If we could just if we could just tell our patients what’s happening, I really think that so much of it could be prevented at the, at the source. Because like I said, even in situations where, you know, emergencies happen and that creates a sort of breeding ground for a traumatic birth experience, you know, oxytocin and the bonding hormones that we have, you know, flowing through our body, have been shown to connect our memories to these experiences and to the interactions as particularly ones that are, you know,

00;43;33;14 – 00;43;59;01

Caitlyn Schollmeier

personal. Right. So, like when we’re interacting with our nurses and our providers, those hormones that we experience and crazy numbers are actually really helping us to remember those memories. And from what I’ve read, it helps you remember the negative social interactions more so than even the positive ones. So think we need to recognize that and understand that communication is really the key to correcting that.

00;43;59;03 – 00;44;17;12

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Sometimes we can’t communicate in the moment, but we could be doing birth debriefs. I’ve worked as a labor and delivery nurse. I know that we’re busy a lot of the time, but there is oftentimes time for us to go in there and to talk about what happened and why it happened, and just kind of intervening early on like that.

00;44;17;15 – 00;44;54;13

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Can already build so much trust. I know with even my birth with my twins, like I said, I was, I was struggling every day. I was an emotional mess. I was crying all the time because, well, one, I didn’t feel heard by most of my provider team. But also I had one nurse over my whole month long stay who was incredible, and she listened to me and, you know, I don’t even know if she really had, like, you know, would have agreed or done the same things that I would have done or would have struggled with the same questions that I was struggling with.

00;44;54;15 – 00;45;13;04

Caitlyn Schollmeier

But she heard me and she talked to me, and she was there and she took the time, and just even that one person out of an entire care team was enough to drastically improve my experience. And now when I describe it, even when I first described it in this conversation, I didn’t initially describe it as a traumatic experience.

00;45;13;06 – 00;45;52;15

Caitlyn Schollmeier

But I promise you, if she was not a part of my care, I would have. It was really intense for me. So I think that’s the number one thing I’d like to see, you know, sort of a preventative measure. And then, as we already talked about, beyond that, when people leave the health care setting and potentially, you know, kind of walk away with these feelings of frustration and distrust and, you know, like they’ve had this traumatic birth experience, when they go and take to the social media or when they start sharing their opinions on line, I think having a little bit of compassion, and recognizing where our shared values are is,

00;45;52;18 – 00;46;02;18

Caitlyn Schollmeier

is the next step, you know, sort of, to help. Correct. You know, we have preventative and then we can maybe help treat the problem by, being a little bit more empathetic.

00;46;02;20 – 00;46;19;23

Dr. Mona

I agree with that. I, I love talking to you because you kind of make me feel like a better clinician with the things that I’ll take home from this conversation. You know, I think I think we all we all try to do a good job. But of course, sometimes these, these things can fall, right. Sometimes you’re like, oh man, I could be a little more compassionate.

00;46;19;23 – 00;46;47;29

Dr. Mona

But the reason I’m just so grateful for my show and meeting, meeting new guests like yourself, you know, that, you know, expressed interest to be on the show is these voices, this inspiration that we can be better, right? Not only in these careers, not only as a creator, but then also as parents. You know, we you you brought up this communication piece and as a parenting account as well, I talk so much about communicating with children, and I believe that communication is the core of everything that we are as humans, right?

00;46;47;29 – 00;47;08;16

Dr. Mona

To feel seen, validated. But how do we express concerns and how do we listen to someone? Can someone’s concerns? We all try to do it as parents, but somehow we forget that adults need it to. New moms need it. Especially, you know, postpartum in pregnancy, the vulnerable time that you’re in and you just embody that. So I really appreciate you coming on today and sharing all this.

00;47;08;18 – 00;47;12;17

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Thank you. I appreciate being here. This is a wonderful conversation, I love it.

00;47;12;20 – 00;47;27;29

Dr. Mona

What would be your final uplifting message? I know we talked about like ways that we can change the world, but like for people tuning in, listening to all we said about where do we go, who’s this, what we’re going to do? What would be your message for all of our listeners who are predominantly women? But maybe they sent this to their male partners if they have them.

00;47;28;02 – 00;47;29;01

Dr. Mona

But what would you say?

00;47;29;03 – 00;47;49;10

Caitlyn Schollmeier

I would just say that, you know, if you’ve had your own negative experiences in health care and health care setting, that that you’re valid in those feelings that those those feelings are real. And you know, that someone should have been there to communicate with you a little bit more, but, that there I think there is a push.

00;47;49;16 – 00;48;07;03

Caitlyn Schollmeier

And, you know, there’s a lot of us out there that are trying to make it make it better, you know, I mean, obviously Doctor Mona here, you know, there are plenty of people out there that want to see people better educated, better prepared. And, the health care setting, it’s going to change. It’s just it’s it takes a little bit of work.

00;48;07;04 – 00;48;15;02

Dr. Mona

Caitlin, thank you so much. Where can people, follow you or, you know, stay connected if you want to give any handles or websites, whatever, maybe.

00;48;15;04 – 00;48;28;12

Caitlyn Schollmeier

Yes, absolutely. On TikTok, I’m the modern midwife and on Instagram, it’s my company Lila dot labor where And I’m at, Nova Women’s Health and Hermitage.

00;48;28;14 – 00;48;31;21

Dr. Mona

I love it.

00;48;31;23 – 00;48;54;11

Dr. Mona

I walked away from this conversation thinking that maybe we need a lot more scrunchie and health care and parenting. And if you’re unfamiliar with these terms, crunchy generally describes the more natural or holistic end of decision making. Think organic foods, cloth diapers, alternative medicine, and sometimes avoiding certain conventional and medical interventions as silky tends to describe the other end.

00;48;54;16 – 00;49;19;04

Dr. Mona

Parents who lean more heavily into conventional medicine, modern conveniences, and evidence based recommendations, and then there’s scrunchie somewhere in between where I like to live. I value evidence and modern medicine. Obviously, I’m a pediatrician, but I’m also open to holistic approaches. When they’re safe and make sense. That’s something Caitlin and I talked about in this episode two, and that’s where I want more of us to stay.

00;49;19;06 – 00;49;41;27

Dr. Mona

To me, being scrunchie means I don’t have to reject modern medicine to ask whether there are other options. I can believe strongly in vaccines and public health and still use acupuncture. I can want evidence and also admit when we don’t have all the answers. I can ask questions without deciding that every doctor’s wrong, and I can practice medicine without assuming that every parent who questions me is anti-science.

00;49;41;29 – 00;50;07;28

Dr. Mona

My biggest takeaway from this conversation is to be careful about turning healthcare decisions into your identity. Once we become the crunchy mom or the evidence based mom, changing our minds can start to feel like betraying who we are or the community we thought we belong to. Caitlin talked about how difficult that can become when the groups we find comfort in start shaming people for changing their minds, and I think health care professionals have a responsibility here, too.

00;50;08;01 – 00;50;33;01

Dr. Mona

We can correct misinformation and still ask ourselves why someone stopped trusting us in the first place. I’m constantly asking myself that question. We can share evidence without making someone feel stupid for asking a question, because Caitlin’s point about communication really stuck with me. Sometimes explaining what is happening, why it’s happening, or even going back after a difficult birth and explaining what happened can help rebuild trust.

00;50;33;01 – 00;50;56;12

Dr. Mona

Something that I didn’t get in my postpartum experience. So my message after this episode is to stay open. Be careful with. I would never understand the benefits and risks. Ask questions. Find clinicians who will actually talk with you about those questions. And if you are a clinician, remember that the person questioning you may have a very good reason why trusting healthcare became difficult for them.

00;50;56;14 – 00;51;21;13

Dr. Mona

Send this episode to the Crunchy friend, the silky friend, the scrunchie friend, or the health care professional who needs to hear this conversation and when you share it, tag the PedsDocTalk podcast. PedsDocTalk The Modern Midwife on TikTok and Lila Dot labor where that’s Lila dot labor on Instagram. Until next time, stay curious. Stay open and I’ll chat with you here again soon.