Have you ever wondered why human babies are born so helpless compared to other animals? That single vulnerability may have given us the gift of speech. Today, I sit down with evolutionary biologist Madeleine Beekman, the author of The Origin of Language, to explore the science behind speech and child development. Looking at parenting through an evolutionary perspective was an eye-opening reminder that our brains are built for community and human connection.

We discuss:

• Why language originally evolved from our babies’ extreme helplessness

• How walking upright and large brains created the “fourth trimester”

• Why infant “manipulation” through cries is an evolutionary survival skill

• How raising kids without a village directly drives parental burnout

• The important of screen-free family meal times and early peer socialization

• Why physical cuddling and intentional connection are the ultimate antidotes to overwhelm

To connect with Madeleine Beekman follow her on Substack: ⁠https://substack.com/@madeleinebeekman⁠. Buy her book The Origin of Language ⁠https://link.amazon/B032BeWkB⁠ (paid link)

Our podcasts are also now on YouTube. If you prefer a video podcast with closed captioning, check us out there and⁠ ⁠subscribe to PedsDocTalk⁠⁠.

Get trusted pediatric advice, relatable parenting insights, and evidence-based tips delivered straight to your inbox—join thousands of parents who rely on the PDT newsletter to stay informed, supported, and confident.⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Join the newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠!

Shop Dr. Mona’s favorite products: ⁠https://shopmy.us/shop/pedsdoctalk⁠ (paid link)

And don’t forget to follow⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠@pedsdoctalkpodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on Instagram—our new space just for parents looking for real talk and real support.

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on the⁠ ⁠PedsDocTalk Podcast Sponsorships⁠⁠ page of the website. 

00;00;39;27 – 00;01;00;19

Dr. Mona

Hello. Hello and welcome to another episode of the PedsDocTalk podcast. I’m Doctor Mona, pediatrician mom and someone who genuinely loves learning right alongside of you. Before we get started, a quick thank you for being here. And every time you listen, download or share an episode, you’re helping this podcast reach more families. And I never take that support for granted.

00;01;00;21 – 00;01;25;01

Dr. Mona

And two very big announcements for the show. One is coming in December and another is coming in January. So subscribe. So you don’t miss that. Now today we’re talking about something that I find absolutely fascinating. And that’s evolution. And I cut out a lot of that curiosity to my dad, who’s always been a lifelong learner. Growing up, he encouraged me to ask questions about why humans are the way we are, how we got here and why we do the things that we do.

00;01;25;03 – 00;01;43;13

Dr. Mona

And I think that’s what’s so fascinating about evolution, is that we often look at human behavior through the lens of psychology, child development, or even culture. But how often do we stop and ask whether something about the way we behave today has roots going back thousands or even millions of years? Think about something as simple as our tailbone.

00;01;43;15 – 00;02;10;00

Dr. Mona

Why do we have a tailbone when we don’t even have a tail? Our tailbone represents the vestigial remains of an ancestral tail that early primates use for balance and movement through trees. Well, here’s another fascinating one. Did you know that human hair can actually grow a little faster during the summer? People often think it’s the winter. And what’s interesting from an evolutionary perspective is that our scalp hair likely evolved in part to protect us from the sun’s UV radiation while helping our bodies manage heat rather than simply keeping us warm.

00;02;10;02 – 00;02;43;20

Dr. Mona

I love evolutionary facts like these. Our bodies carry these little reminders of where we came from. And that makes me wonder what about the things we can’t see? Our relationships, our desire to connect. The way we communicate. The way we raise our children. How much of what we consider normal human behavior has been shaped by evolution? So when today’s guest, Madeline Beekman, shared her book and its premise with me, I was immediately intrigued because as a pediatrician, I spent too much time talking about how children develop, how they learn to communicate, how they build relationships, and how their brain grows.

00;02;43;23 – 00;03;07;12

Dr. Mona

But Madeline’s work asks us to think about something bigger. Why did humans develop the way we did in the first place? So today’s guest is Madeline Beekman, an evolutionary biologist and author of The Origin of Language How We Learn to Speak and Why Madeline has spent her career studying Evolution and her research led her down an unexpected path towards a fascinating new explanation for one of the defining characteristics of being human.

00;03;07;18 – 00;03;32;10

Dr. Mona

Our ability to use language. And I love that her theory challenges us to look at something we do every single day from an entirely different perspective. We get into the importance of community, why modern parenting can feel isolating, and even how I may be changing our relationship with language and communication. I walked away from this interview thinking about human development in a way I hadn’t before, and I hope you do too.

00;03;32;12 – 00;03;55;13

Dr. Mona

If you enjoy conversations that make you curious about the world, please subscribe to the show. Download the episode and share it with someone who loves science, parenting, or learning something new. And when you share it on social. Make sure to tag the Dog talk podcast Pete’s Dog Talk so I can see what you thought. Let’s get into it.

00;03;55;15 – 00;03;58;23

Dr. Mona

Hello! I’m so happy that you’re here today. Madeline. Nice to see you.

00;03;58;29 – 00;04;01;00

Madeleine Beekman

Nice to see you, too. It’s been a while, and.

00;04;01;07 – 00;04;20;16

Dr. Mona

It’s been a while. And also, we in win terms of being a while, you know, we have tried to make this happen a few times. Madeline is in Australia. And obviously I’m in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And so making that work, I’m in a new set up, which is my office at home slash my bedroom, hence the, dresser behind me.

00;04;20;19 – 00;04;23;05

Dr. Mona

So thank you for for joining us. How have you been?

00;04;23;07 – 00;04;33;05

Madeleine Beekman

I’ve been really good, actually. We’ve it’s winter here because with the other side of the planet and it’s, it’s actually been really mild, which is great because I don’t like the cold, you know.

00;04;33;05 – 00;04;55;26

Dr. Mona

So I’m excited about this conversation. We are talking all about your book, The Origin of Language, how we learn to speak and why. And I just want to explain why this topic is just so exciting to me. I am a physician. We don’t learn about evolution so much in medicine. But obviously we learn about, you know, sociology, psychology, things like that.

00;04;56;03 – 00;05;21;14

Dr. Mona

But my obsession with evolution comes from my father. My father is like what? I describe a lifelong learner, and he just always wants to learn about various things. And he kind of instilled this love and curiosity for evolution. So it’s definitely something that I’m so excited to chat with you about. Because I just don’t think that, people have really heard this perspective on how language, can obviously have roots in evolution.

00;05;21;14 – 00;05;23;15

Dr. Mona

And your research behind all of this.

00;05;23;17 – 00;05;49;20

Madeleine Beekman

Well, first off, great to have a father who instills such a love for curiosity new. Yeah. We should have we should all have parents like that. It’s interesting that you say that as a physician, you haven’t really been exposed to evolutionary thinking, which I think is a bit of a shame, because. Yeah. What is the product of evolution to understanding how evolution work?

00;05;49;20 – 00;05;57;04

Madeleine Beekman

And the body is, I think, quite important. But then, of course, I’m biased because I see everything through an evolutionary lens.

00;05;57;06 – 00;06;20;28

Dr. Mona

It’s kind of like how I am so into child development and everything I even when adults are acting a certain way, I’m like, what happened in your childhood? Like, what is the coping mechanisms? Because I’m in such a I’m very like very deep into psychology and child development and all of that. So I can relate to that. And your book, obviously, again, if you’re watching this on YouTube, the origin of language, how we learn to speak and why.

00;06;21;00 – 00;06;44;14

Dr. Mona

As a pediatrician, I talk a lot about speech milestones, and I think parents listening probably know, okay, you know, talking communication. But your book asks a much bigger question, which I love is why humans have language at all. So can you explain your idea that language developed because our babies were born so dependent, or more on this sort of evolutionary reason for language?

00;06;44;17 – 00;07;09;04

Madeleine Beekman

Yeah, well, first off, I have to admit that when I started working on this book, I had no idea was going to lead me to language at all. I just wanted to understand the evolutionary process itself, because I felt that even though I’m an evolutionary biologist, I didn’t quite understand all the nitty gritty details. I also wanted to try and write something different from academic paper.

00;07;09;04 – 00;07;31;15

Madeleine Beekman

So I thought, well, why not try and write a book? Because it’s very different and I love reading. So I thought, well, let me write a book that I would love to read. But then evolution is a very big topic. And also because I wanted to write for general audience, I thought will have to have a clear framework in which I’m looking at evolution.

00;07;31;21 – 00;08;00;06

Madeleine Beekman

So why don’t we look at ourselves around evolutionary history and some some, to my surprise, that then led ultimately to an explanation of why we have language. But that’s it’s a it’s quite a long process. And at some stage the realization came to me when I, when I realized how expensive in energetic terms are babies are, why are they so expensive?

00;08;00;08 – 00;08;28;16

Madeleine Beekman

It’s because we have this massive brain. So that was not new because we always said, even from Darwin onwards, that we humans are special because we have this outsized brain. But of course, if adults have an outsized brain, babies also have to start with a disproportionately large brain. Now everyone knows, given birth knows, that birth is quite a difficult process because of that large head of the baby.

00;08;28;21 – 00;08;54;18

Madeleine Beekman

For that reason, because our pelvis couldn’t get any wider because otherwise we can’t walk upright. Evolution had to compromise, saying what if saying if you have this large brained organism, little large babies with a large head, we have to make sure that the babies are born early enough that they can still fit through the the birth canal, because we can’t make the birth canal bigger.

00;08;54;20 – 00;09;16;10

Madeleine Beekman

Now, when you’re born with a very small brain relative to what the size of the brain is when you’re when you’re an adult. So our babies are born with about 25% of the size of the adult brain. It is extremely premature. And the great thing about a premature brain is that it’s extremely flexible. So it’s basically a sponge for information.

00;09;16;10 – 00;09;50;23

Madeleine Beekman

It can learn really quickly. Now these babies are born with a problem. I can’t survive by myself because I’m so premature. I need a lot of help. And language became the tool that our babies used to make sure that they got the help that they needed. But of course, it goes two ways. The parents have a hard time raising those extreme premature babies because they are so needy, and you can’t do much else when you’re the sole parent of a very needy baby.

00;09;50;25 – 00;10;18;22

Madeleine Beekman

So language also became a tool for the parents to ask for help. And then the two started to feed off each other. So a little baby who has communication skills, and I’m not talking about language yet because, you know, when a baby’s born, it can’t speak yet, but it can definitely communicate. So if you as a baby can communicate just a little bit better than someone, another baby, and you can extract just a little bit of more help, then you have an evolutionary advantage.

00;10;18;24 – 00;10;48;25

Madeleine Beekman

The other side is the parents who can extract more help from other individuals around them to help them raise the baby. They have an advantage because they’re more successful in raising babies. I hope that still makes sense. I mean, it’s a convoluted, positive, feedback long process, but that’s what I realized. Babies need a lot of help. Parents need a lot of help, and a unique way by which they can ask for help is have this weird trait, which is language.

00;10;48;28 – 00;11;07;28

Dr. Mona

Now, that definitely makes sense to me. And my husband and I have always been very fascinated at looking how animals, you know, not humans, but animals and they’re their babies are different, right? We have giraffes that are birthed and start walking almost immediately, or elephants that start doing things on their own. It’s just so interesting to see how humans are so different.

00;11;08;04 – 00;11;32;14

Dr. Mona

And there is an understanding amongst a lot of physicians, pediatricians, and when we educate about newborn sleep and about, you know, that postpartum period, that fourth trimester, how that baby is basically we call it the fourth trimester, because it’s almost like it was too early for them to actually be birth it. And what you’re describing with the the pelvis shape and the size of the head, that makes complete sense that they’re coming out really dependent.

00;11;32;14 – 00;11;53;04

Dr. Mona

And my, you know, my I don’t I see it as a joke, but it’s more of like to, you know, get parents, especially in that postpartum period. Laughing a little bit, I describe that postpartum period as a type of hazing. Like, so if you’re, you know, going to a fraternity or sorority, mainly fraternities, you’re basically getting dumped into this, like sleep deprivation.

00;11;53;07 – 00;12;18;23

Dr. Mona

You’re learning about that, babies, cuz there’s so much happening and so much like emotional like discovery that’s, that’s happening that almost makes you, in a way, not want to abandon that child to the wolves. Right? From an evolutionary perspective, you’re feeling so bonded to that baby because you’re just like to caring for its needs, learning about it, feeding them diaper changes, all the things that you’re like, well, this is my baby.

00;12;18;24 – 00;12;41;25

Dr. Mona

Like, I’m going to, you know, I’m going to I’m going to take care of this and hopefully not abandon it to the wolves if we’re thinking about it from an evolutionary perspective. But, you know, I’ve always thought about that postpartum period and how important it is, you know, like you mentioned about communication for parents in that phase, like learning what the cries mean, you know, like I, I talked so much in that postpartum period about listening for the cries.

00;12;41;25 – 00;13;01;17

Dr. Mona

And if you can listen, you’ll start to realize what the cries mean. Is it a hunger fussy cry? They need some comfort cry, illness. You know, I learned about my babies cries, which are so different than in other babies. And I don’t know if you did any research in the types of crying in communication or like other ways that babies are communicating.

00;13;01;17 – 00;13;04;23

Dr. Mona

For a listener who only thinks that language is communication.

00;13;04;26 – 00;13;32;08

Madeleine Beekman

Well, I haven’t done that myself. But the interesting thing is, just after I finished this book, my first granddaughter was born. Although I say first, first and only so far. Okay, so she’s now about 15 months old and having written this book, make me look at her from such a different perspective. You know, my daughters are now they’re in their 30s, so it’s been a while since they were little babies.

00;13;32;08 – 00;13;54;15

Madeleine Beekman

So lots of things I’d forgotten. But also, I think my mindset was not very different. And when I listened to my daughter and her partner saying when I was when I was with them, and I would say, well, this little cry means that she wants this, or this little cry means that she wants that. And I myself have to admit, I couldn’t tell the difference.

00;13;54;17 – 00;14;27;21

Madeleine Beekman

But they clearly could. And as you say, they’re just so tuned in into this tiny little human being that really can’t do anything apart from making some noises and also using her face. So don’t don’t miss, don’t underestimate the importance of facial communication with babies. And it’s just intriguing to me how subtle all these different communications were when this little baby can’t do much else, and how it tunes the parents, to those tiny little differences.

00;14;27;22 – 00;14;38;23

Madeleine Beekman

It’s just fascinating. So I hope I’m going to have many more grandchildren so I can go through the process again. But of course, that’s not up to me.

00;14;38;26 – 00;14;58;04

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show. Oh well, I think that’s so fascinating that like you mentioned, like I know my daughter’s cries and my son’s cries so well, like, meaning there’s moments where like, you know, sometimes we’ll give them a little bit of space when they go to bed.

00;14;58;04 – 00;15;17;07

Dr. Mona

And I’m like, she’s not going to go down. Like, I need to go in. Like, I know when I can leave some space and when I cannot. And that is such a, you know, intuitive thing. And, you know, I think a lot of parents listening will always say, well, you know, they say parenthood is intuitive and, you know, follow your instinct.

00;15;17;09 – 00;15;40;17

Dr. Mona

But then they feel sort of lost when they’re discovered. I always try to have families kind of tap back in to like just listening and waiting. And I love that your, your child did that with their, you know, with your grandchild about learning and like discovering because that so much of this parent child dyad. Right. Like I, I, I call it a dyad because my relationship with my daughter is unique than my husband’s relationship with my daughter.

00;15;40;21 – 00;15;59;26

Dr. Mona

And then my relationship with my son is unique with my husband’s relationship with my son. But it’s all about sort of waiting, listening, learning. And I love that you brought up facial expressions, the little pouty lip that my daughter does that my son really never did, or the way my daughter looks at me in certain ways that my son never did, or vice versa.

00;15;59;26 – 00;16;05;15

Dr. Mona

I think it’s just so fascinating that there’s that communication, but it can vary just child to child as well.

00;16;05;17 – 00;16;29;00

Madeleine Beekman

Oh definitely. Definitely. Yes. I mean, they’re all they’re own individual. So of course they’re different. And the way they communicate with you is very different. The one thing and then I’ll stop talking about for the one thing I liked, how much is the way she uses her eyes so she can squint in enjoy. Oh, yes. All these, these tiny little things that you only see when you really pay attention.

00;16;29;00 – 00;16;53;11

Madeleine Beekman

I think. And also I have to say that, so they’re a bit reluctant to let others, including myself, put it to bed, for example, because they say that you don’t understand the difference between the little cries and of room. But then, of course, they’re totally correct, because yeah, I can’t I’m not her mother. So it’s it’s just it’s just lovely to see it.

00;16;53;11 – 00;17;15;14

Madeleine Beekman

And it’s, And it makes so much sense. As you say, a giraffe full makes a full of about two meters when when it’s born, often falls when his head gets up, walks off very wobbly, but it still walks off. It takes our babies for is three months at least before they can even hold up their head. Yeah.

00;17;15;14 – 00;17;27;02

Madeleine Beekman

So it’s they have to be really good at manipulating parents and other individuals around them to just look after them. And they do it. They manage very well.

00;17;27;05 – 00;17;50;18

Dr. Mona

And I love the words you used manipulated in a positive sentence. Like sometimes people will hear that word and think like, oh, like they’re they’re trying to get something out of you. But I love that you’re using it as a and it correct me if I’m wrong, but like a very positive word of describing that, they are trying to figure out the communication of how they’re supposed to get your attention, whether it’s through crying, whether it’s through squealing, whether it’s through whining.

00;17;50;18 – 00;18;14;25

Dr. Mona

Right. Like, I think parents understand that even as your kid gets older, there’s other strategies that they use to get your attention and get your, you know, get your connection that way. Right? I think you’ve mentioned that so much of this is not just communication, it’s cooperation. It’s connection that they’re trying to strive for. If human babies evolve to be deeply dependent, which I agree to right?

00;18;14;25 – 00;18;28;19

Dr. Mona

Like they need us. They need us to keep them safe. They need us to learn about their cues, all the things that we’re talking about and require cooperation to survive. What does that tell us about how humans were meant to raise children in your in your sense?

00;18;28;22 – 00;18;33;24

Madeleine Beekman

Well, first of all, yes. Immense manipulation in the most positive yes way.

00;18;33;24 – 00;18;38;11

Dr. Mona

I felt that too. And I love that we’re talking about that because I always use it in a positive framework, too.

00;18;38;17 – 00;19;19;20

Madeleine Beekman

Exactly. I think that if you think back to our to our ancestors, we were always supposed to raise them with other people around them. And also, when you think about they you probably know that better than I do. A healthy mental development for a child requires input or interactions with other individuals, and that includes other children, but also other adults, but also for the evil, for the development of language, exposure to a large number of people who speak different in different ways, use different words that will only help a child’s own language development.

00;19;19;20 – 00;19;43;22

Madeleine Beekman

I think we are totally social. So why do why is solitary confinement such a basically actually heard on a podcast the other day that someone said that solitary confinement should be seen as a form of torture because we are extremely social people, social species. So if you if you take that away from us, we go insane. Yeah.

00;19;43;22 – 00;19;47;18

Madeleine Beekman

The same with children. They just need other individuals around them.

00;19;47;25 – 00;19;49;11

Dr. Mona

I feel that from the pandemic.

00;19;49;15 – 00;19;50;24

Madeleine Beekman

I think.

00;19;51;01 – 00;20;12;20

Dr. Mona

Many of my listeners can agree that I became a first time mom to my son. December 2019. And then the pandemic hit in March. Right? And my entire postpartum first year of life with my son was very isolating. And, you know, he I will never know if his language development was because of who he was or because of the pandemic.

00;20;12;20 – 00;20;30;17

Dr. Mona

Right. Like my daughter was speaking much earlier. She’s also a girl. It can vary by, you know, what we’re doing in the home. There’s so many different factors. I’m not saying that the pandemic caused my son to speak later. However, we weren’t around a lot of other humans. It was just me, my husband who worked a lot, a nanny, no playdates.

00;20;30;18 – 00;20;58;26

Dr. Mona

I love that you brought up the importance of socialization with peers. There’s a lot of, you know, misconceptions out there that kids don’t need, like group child care. Kids don’t need like those kind of events. And although I agree that not every kid needs group childcare sometimes for a family who has no social circle, right, like who has no peers for their child, like myself included, when I had my son, childcare was the way that my son had peers and it was highly beneficial.

00;20;58;26 – 00;21;18;01

Dr. Mona

We noticed a language explosion when he started childcare, and it was because I think what you’re describing, I think there was a lot of socialization happening. There was a lot of parallel play happening. He was, you know, 14 months when he started childcare and you know, when you talk about this, you know, what it takes to you know, what, we need to raise children.

00;21;18;01 – 00;21;53;22

Dr. Mona

I love that you’re bringing up the community and also that evolutionarily we are social human beings. And I always like to add, like some people will hear that and say, well, what about children who are, you know, autistic? What about children who are neurodiverse? You know, they may communicate differently. I think the point is valid that regardless of how you communicate, regardless of if you’re an introvert, extrovert, shy, outgoing, everyone wants to be connected and wants to have social socialization, I think there that is an innate human thing, and I think you would agree with that regardless of what your development is.

00;21;53;26 – 00;22;18;28

Madeleine Beekman

No, totally, I totally agree. So with respect to childcare, I think for some reason we we, as in the West, have developed or some parts of Western society have developed this idea that sending your child to childcare is bad because you’re finding out looking after your, your child. And I would argue the complete opposite because I see it now again in my granddaughter.

00;22;18;28 – 00;22;44;08

Madeleine Beekman

So she’s now starting, childcare. She’s the first or she doesn’t have any siblings, and she just livens up when she goes and she sees other children. Yeah. It’s just such a change in her behavior. And I’m not saying that because when she is at home, she might look after it or anything, but it’s it’s an addition to her life, which at this stage in her life is extremely important for the children.

00;22;44;08 – 00;23;09;25

Madeleine Beekman

I can learn from them. I can play with them. I can do see what they’re doing. We can do things together. We can do it together, but apart because their skills, they’re really good at being together but not actually doing things together. But it’s it’s just this, this urge to have other individuals around you. And as you say, yes, you can be an introvert, but that doesn’t mean that you want to be in solitary confinement.

00;23;09;28 – 00;23;10;10

Madeleine Beekman

It’s just.

00;23;10;10 – 00;23;11;06

Dr. Mona

It’s totally.

00;23;11;08 – 00;23;17;29

Madeleine Beekman

False. Exactly. It’s just a different way that you use social connections, but you still need those social connections.

00;23;18;01 – 00;23;36;14

Dr. Mona

That’s so that’s so much why whenever I see isolation, whether it’s an adult, we know also from a mental health standpoint, the negative impact of isolation. We saw it in the pandemic, right. So many people struggled with the isolation and we see it in motherhood. And I think that leads me to that other point that you had is that we’re talking about this.

00;23;36;22 – 00;23;59;20

Dr. Mona

You know, community. And you mentioned earlier about the importance of communication for asking for help, you know, like finding your people. And I think parents often hear that it takes a village. I heard that as well. I didn’t have a village for about three years of my son’s life, three and a half years. It was very isolating. And many in, especially in the Western world, you know, I’m Indian by ethnicity.

00;23;59;26 – 00;24;24;28

Dr. Mona

I know a lot of what you said were like a lot of families were very, you know, large there was mothers and grandmothers and people taking care of the the woman who had the baby. And it was so communal. And now we’re raising kids in this very small, isolated nuclear families. So what happens when we try to parent without the kind of communal support our species have evolved with?

00;24;24;28 – 00;24;29;16

Dr. Mona

What do you think that does to a family, to a child in terms of emotions, mental health?

00;24;29;22 – 00;24;52;22

Madeleine Beekman

I think for a parent, especially for the parents, it’s extremely difficult, I think, because it is just such hard work. It’s exhausting. And no matter how much you love the child and some say you want someone else to look after it for a little bit so you can do something else. Well, as I said, I think for a child it’s important to have lots of social interactions.

00;24;52;27 – 00;25;18;07

Madeleine Beekman

Yeah, preferably with large number of other individuals. Of course, they have to be positive interactions. And I think we do see issues arising with increasingly mental health problems, but people being not socially connected anymore, at least not in the way that they really need it. I mean, you see it with elderly people, especially when the the partner has died and they live by themselves.

00;25;18;10 – 00;25;48;17

Madeleine Beekman

The children don’t have time to visit them. Sometimes they don’t have any children. It’s it’s not healthy. That’s why you probably see an increase in dementia because there’s so much loneliness amongst people. But what I find if we if we return to children is one of my pet hates, I have to say is when you see families when they’re having dinner, they’re not having dinner together because almost everyone is on their phone or on the night, but they don’t talk to each other anymore.

00;25;48;20 – 00;26;07;09

Madeleine Beekman

And I find that so sad. And I want to then shake up the parents and say, do you realize what you’re doing? You have to talk to your child. And I remember that from when my daughters were young. Dinner always took ages because they had to tell us what they’d done at childcare. We had to tell them all sorts of things.

00;26;07;09 – 00;26;32;22

Madeleine Beekman

And you don’t have, you know, extremely intellectual conversations with your child when they’re 4 or 5. We have conversations and it’s fun. And I think, I think we were missing out on a lot by not doing that as much anymore as I think is fun. But also it’s essential for the the development of your child social skills, language skills.

00;26;32;24 – 00;26;55;28

Dr. Mona

I agree, I am on the prioritizing family meal times as much as possible. I’m married to an ER doctor husband who works shift work right, so we are not able to do dinner time with him every night like as I would. However, when it’s me or whether it’s me and my husband, we have a no cell phone role and I, you know, it is something that’s very important to me because we are so busy during the day, right?

00;26;55;28 – 00;27;14;04

Dr. Mona

Like, my kids are both in childcare. I’m working during the day. You think about how that is really the quality time that we are getting as a family on the weeknights, right? Like, and for me, I want to protect that time and it’s so healing. I don’t think it’s, you know, not even just from a communication standpoint for our younger kids.

00;27;14;04 – 00;27;30;21

Dr. Mona

And, you know, my six year old knows how to talk up a storm. He doesn’t need me to. He doesn’t need me to teach him how to talk. However, he does need to learn about the world. And you know what he did in school and what made him light up? You know, there’s so much that comes through those connected moments.

00;27;30;21 – 00;27;49;15

Dr. Mona

And I. I’m really happy that you’re bringing up screens because I, I respect and understand people will use it for various reasons, but I always try to say be very intentional, try to scale it back, try to think of moments in your day where it’s not in your family’s, you know, communicative picture, because there are ways to do that.

00;27;49;15 – 00;28;06;19

Dr. Mona

And meal times for me is one of those times. And I grew up with a family that was very adamant that the TV would not be on. We didn’t have cell phones back in the 90s, but it it has so much positive memories for me, like vivid memories of how much I laughed, how much we got to connect even when things were not always perfect in my house.

00;28;06;19 – 00;28;25;22

Dr. Mona

Like there was always positive memories around the dinner table because we just laughed and shared stories and be. And when I get to be goofy with my son and make walrus sounds and you know, that’s how they learn to eat. Like that’s how they learn to learn about things and share things. And again, going back to that, we’re not meant to do this alone, right?

00;28;25;22 – 00;28;46;26

Dr. Mona

That this is a communal experience. Eating is a communal experience. And I feel the same way with you that I just feel like for far too many families are losing the power of the communal experience of a meal time. Because, again, it’s not just about the communication, it’s about the feelings that come with that. And that is such a beauty, awful thing that I try to preserve as much as we can.

00;28;46;26 – 00;28;56;11

Dr. Mona

Is it perfect now? Some days we have, you know, out to dinner, maybe there’s a screen involved, but that’s the exception, not the rule is what I’m trying to make more of my community understand as well.

00;28;56;18 – 00;29;20;13

Madeleine Beekman

No, I totally agree. So meal times, I mean, that’s also how I grew up, although my father came from a family where there was silence during dinner, they were not allowed to speak, which others find bizarre. We came from a yeah, very strange family. Anyway. Yeah, my mum came from a family where dinnertime. You talk. So we always spoke.

00;29;20;13 – 00;29;55;08

Madeleine Beekman

So luckily my, my mum won and we had a very lively dinner. And that’s when I also took to my own family. And that’s what my daughter is now taking to her family. So even though, you know, the child eats something different, doesn’t eat the same thing as the parents, they eat together because that’s when you when you bond and as you say, life is so busy if you can’t even make the time to have one moment a day with your family, then what’s the point?

00;29;55;08 – 00;29;57;10

Dr. Mona

Almost of life, right?

00;29;57;15 – 00;30;00;17

Madeleine Beekman

Right. But.

00;30;00;19 – 00;30;22;16

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show. Going back to your point about evolution and how we are connected species, right? Of course, then if we’re not fostering connection in any part of our life, what is the point of being human? We might as well be another species like this whole point is to create relationships.

00;30;22;16 – 00;30;42;12

Dr. Mona

We know it from a health standpoint. You said about the dementia. You talked about it from an elderly standpoint, but even from like a child development standpoint, you know, I don’t look at the connection as just something to check off, right? I look at it as how if my child is more connected to me, they’re more likely to listen to me, right, with boundaries because they feel like they can trust me.

00;30;42;19 – 00;31;09;06

Dr. Mona

Like I’m writing a book now and I’m talking about how connection breeds cooperation. And this is exactly your work to write that. If, if, if someone is barking orders to my child and they have no connection, they’re, they’re less likely to want to follow those rules, listen to that person. But if they know that I have their back, like if they know that my mom, my dad listens to me, communicates with me, cooperates with me, they are more likely to listen all the time.

00;31;09;06 – 00;31;26;05

Dr. Mona

No, but they’re more likely to say, okay, let’s talk about this. And that’s that culture that we’re bringing. And I think it’s again, there’s so many benefits that just go beyond checking this off your to do list. It’s communication. And to me, connection should never be a to do list. It’s the it’s the whole game. Like you just said.

00;31;26;05 – 00;31;47;11

Dr. Mona

What is the point of being a human being if we’re not connecting with our human beings in our life, especially our family? Like that is who you is. They’re day in and day out. And I think to this point, I think some people listening might be like, well, I’m just so burned out and, you know, there’s so much like, I just feel so overwhelmed and isolated.

00;31;47;13 – 00;32;03;08

Dr. Mona

Where would you tell that parent? I’m like, where do I even start right now? Like, what’s one thing they should do? What’s one takeaway that you wish they would have, not just from your book, but from your work on how they can sort of use evolution, use the work that you’ve done to make a positive change in their family.

00;32;03;14 – 00;32;28;14

Madeleine Beekman

Oh, that’s a tricky question because people have problems because of lots of different causes, isn’t it? So there’s there’s never one reason why things don’t work. Well. Reflection. Try and understand where the problems come from in the first place because, yeah. Well, that’s it’s a little bit of a cliche, but I strongly think that if you don’t understand what the cause of the problem is, you can’t find a solution.

00;32;28;17 – 00;32;44;23

Madeleine Beekman

So you have to understand, first of all, what is it that my problem is? But that means you’re not. Basically, you’re not taking enough time to look out for yourself because otherwise you wouldn’t get burned out in the first place. So you have to understand, why am I burned out? What am I doing? What I shouldn’t be doing?

00;32;44;23 – 00;33;04;05

Madeleine Beekman

I mean, we all. And I think that may be particularly true for women. Always try to please too many people. And yeah, that comes at a time when you just have to say, well, there’s one person I’m not pleasing and that person is me, and I have to look after myself too, because if I’m not happy, I can’t make other people happy either.

00;33;04;07 – 00;33;30;08

Madeleine Beekman

So what is it that I need, for my own mental health and and well-being? And once you understand where your problem comes from, then you can try and find a solution. Isn’t one great failing just to hug your child or have a, you know, very positive reaction or interaction with your child. I mean, that in itself should increase your your happiness levels.

00;33;30;10 – 00;33;50;27

Dr. Mona

But I tell families, yeah, I mean, like I always say, like when I’m burnt out, that is when I know that I need to lean in more to my kids. People want to push away when they’re feeling burnt out. But I tell, you know, I tell my communities to like, just try to reframe of like trying to pull back in a little bit because you it’s almost like our kids also understand when we need them the most.

00;33;50;28 – 00;34;04;16

Dr. Mona

Another question I have for you, I, I’m trying to remind myself of terminology. So when modern humans first appeared, other human species were still alive. So when we think, we think about us. We’re Homo sapiens. Correct? I want to make sure my terminology is right.

00;34;04;18 – 00;34;05;11

Madeleine Beekman

Correct.

00;34;05;13 – 00;34;12;27

Dr. Mona

Okay. Yes. And so other human species were still alive. What are some examples of like like Neanderthals. Like what am I, I don’t I could be completely wrong. Sure. Like yeah.

00;34;12;28 – 00;34;46;16

Madeleine Beekman

Okay. So so that’s another great thing that I realized when I was working on that book. So the one Neanderthals, there were Denisovans s Homo erectus was still alive. Then we had two Howard Homo floresiensis. Recently. They found another little human on, Luzon, I think one of the okay Bean Island to the Philippines. So at least five other species of Homo were around when our species arrived about 300,000 years ago in Africa.

00;34;46;21 – 00;35;11;23

Madeleine Beekman

And in no time, they’re all gone. So Homo neanderthalensis a thing or the Neanderthals, I think they went extinct about 40, 45,000 years ago. That’s nothing. So there’s a chapter in my book, which I start with, this imaginary train journey where instead of all my other people, all the other people in, in the compartment being Homo sapiens, they’re all different species of Homo.

00;35;11;23 – 00;35;38;17

Madeleine Beekman

I mean, what what an amazing world that would have been. But what I think is that they couldn’t speak. They had no language, or at least not a precise form of communication that we have. And that was essential for our species to become the dominant species. So I’m not saying that we killed them, right, because I don’t think we could because, for example, in the, the towers were much bigger, much stronger than our species.

00;35;38;20 – 00;36;03;01

Madeleine Beekman

But it really think that we talk them all out of existence. They. Because because we had this language skill which allowed us to produce more babies. So we basically talked, talked our way out of it by making little babies. That sounds a bit bizarre, but I’m pretty convinced that that’s the case. So now we’re the only species of human, which is a bit sad, I think.

00;36;03;03 – 00;36;03;29

Madeleine Beekman

That’s the way it is.

00;36;03;29 – 00;36;16;13

Dr. Mona

But it’s, but it’s but that’s the way evolution is baby. Right. Like I love that. Yeah. Because evolution you know Darwinism the survival of the fittest and language. So you’re saying obviously that you believe language is the reason we survived.

00;36;16;21 – 00;36;18;13

Madeleine Beekman

And thrived, not just survive.

00;36;18;13 – 00;36;18;24

Dr. Mona

Yes.

00;36;18;24 – 00;36;19;11

Madeleine Beekman

Thrived.

00;36;19;17 – 00;36;41;04

Dr. Mona

And how how might that be conceptualized for anyone listening besides what we said in terms of the importance of the child being able to communicate with the, with the caregiver, but also our realizing and understanding that we need to get help. Is there other any other advantage of language that I’m missing here that you think the listeners should know about that we may not have talked about?

00;36;41;11 – 00;37;06;10

Madeleine Beekman

Well, that’s something I’m, I’m sort of working on. Yeah. So because the book stops with the evolution of language, although I do give a little bit of hint what language has done to really make us the dominant species that we are now. So let’s backtrack a little bit. So our species is young 300,000 years in evolutionary time is nothing.

00;37;06;13 – 00;37;26;27

Madeleine Beekman

And if you think about the first humans living in Africa, making primitive tools, etc., to now, you know, now we’re thinking of colonizing Mars, which I think is a crazy idea, but that’s different. That’s that’s a different matter. As long as no one is telling me that I have to go to Mars back in school. But, you know, they want.

00;37;26;29 – 00;37;57;26

Madeleine Beekman

But this this whole suite of innovation was only possible because of language. Because language allows you to transfer ideas to other people. So instead of every individual, if you think about a chimpanzee, for example, they also use tools. And yes, they can, they can improve on tools. But by watching another individual making a tool and thinking, oh, I can improve on that design, but they can’t explain to each other how you make a better tool.

00;37;57;28 – 00;38;22;06

Madeleine Beekman

We can. Language allows you to explain things and transfer ideas so you don’t have to constantly reinvent the wheel. The wheel has been invented and you just build on the wheel. Now of course, once we had writing and in particular the printing press, these ideas could spread much more quickly. And this is when you see, you know, things like the Industrial revolution.

00;38;22;06 – 00;38;55;12

Madeleine Beekman

Of course, writing is much older than the Industrial revolution. But you know, this, this quick change in things we we basically can do. The other thing I think is language or transmission of information through language has changed the way we think or the ideas that people have. I was listening to a podcast the other day, in which someone was making the argument that the the Industrial revolution didn’t happen because of an increase in innovation that led to the steam engine.

00;38;55;12 – 00;39;24;06

Madeleine Beekman

But the main innovation of the Industrial Revolution was the way people thought that they no longer thought that only kings and queens or not so much queens would. Kings have power, and they are the ones who dictate what society does. But instead there was a change in, in, in a hierarchical thinking that a common person could now also have the freedom to think and innovate.

00;39;24;06 – 00;39;51;22

Madeleine Beekman

And that was the main driving force behind things like the Industrial Revolution. So without language, you don’t have changes in in ideas and etc.. So we humans have the language has basically driven everything that makes us human. Think of something human specifically human, and try and think, was that possible without language? I don’t think you can find anything.

00;39;51;22 – 00;40;09;09

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And I mean, when you’re seeing language reminding our audience that that includes communicative things, right. Like obviously written language, spoken language, it’s not just talking, but it’s I love how you described as the transfer of information. And I can’t think of anything that we didn’t have to learn from somebody else. And that took language and communication to do that.

00;40;09;11 – 00;40;10;22

Madeleine Beekman

Exactly, exactly.

00;40;10;28 – 00;40;32;29

Dr. Mona

My question for you on that point is, I think that’s a valid point, and I love how you frame that. And it’s something we haven’t chatted about. But that language being the transfer of information that’s going to go in my my, wrap up because I love that. What are your thoughts about I, I would love to segue into that because obviously we now have the system that can give us so much transfer of information.

00;40;33;03 – 00;40;59;14

Dr. Mona

Right. And I’m not, you know, for a grown adult, I would hope that they have they know that they should be using their own brain before they’re using an AI system, but not many people are doing that. I know there was a study from Carnegie Mellon, UCLA and some others, other prestigious universities looking at how when people who use AI, they have this sort of effect, that after they take away the AI system, they’re less likely to complete a task.

00;40;59;18 – 00;41;25;08

Dr. Mona

They’re, you know, more likely to give up, and they’re more likely to get the information wrong. And so, yes, to the point of transfer of information, but are you concerned about what AI is going to replace in this whole origin of language theory that you have? Especially as it comes to communicative, like that person to person contact, the personal exchange of information, or do you think it’s still beneficial to have information transfer in the written text as well?

00;41;25;10 – 00;41;34;22

Dr. Mona

I’m just like thinking so many different thoughts with AI right now. And I have a mostly hate some love relationship with it. But I’m curious your thoughts.

00;41;34;25 – 00;41;46;13

Madeleine Beekman

Yeah, so it’s a good question. So just to make it completely clear, I use AI when I want to find information, but I use it as a search engine. Yeah. Yes as.

00;41;46;13 – 00;41;59;02

Dr. Mona

Well. I mean, to be fair though, but to be fair, most search engines now use AI even if you want it or not. I think you can disable it, but even when I go on Google, it’s using its Gemini AI to search. So it’s like everywhere now. Yeah, yeah.

00;41;59;08 – 00;42;36;13

Madeleine Beekman

Correct? Correct. Just let’s backtrack a little bit. I, I wrote a Substack piece in which I explained how writing, as in physical writing handwriting has has a very different connection to the way you, you remember the information than when you typed, for example, this is not my work, but that’s what I got from from reading, because I remember when I was a university student, I would always make knocks during lectures, and then when it came to learning for the exam, I realized everything I made notes on.

00;42;36;15 – 00;43;01;09

Madeleine Beekman

I already remembered because the act of writing it down, especially especially when you have to translate something from what someone said into your own words and then write it down. That has a very clear connection to your memory. Now people have done studies, because of getting concerned that children in school now don’t actually write by hand anymore, but they type.

00;43;01;12 – 00;43;29;11

Madeleine Beekman

And the other thing is a different issue. Yeah, but it’s it’s yeah, links related to the same thing. I think you’re using other things that we’re not involved with to try and get information. So if you type things you are less likely to remember it. Yeah. What helps you understand things is by reading, consolidating, summarizing, making connections. That is how you understand text.

00;43;29;11 – 00;43;53;04

Madeleine Beekman

For example, now we have AI that does it for us, so we don’t have to. We don’t. Yes. Now if you if you just rely on AI, you basically ask it, well, what do you think of this? And then it will through the internet, which of course is all information that we humans have put on the internet because it doesn’t change anything new and it gives you consolidated summary.

00;43;53;11 – 00;44;16;00

Madeleine Beekman

So that makes it far less likely that we actually or the user will remember the information because you’re basically just lazy, of thinking about this. When I was talking to someone, she said that she had to make a PowerPoint presentation. She got a little bit lazy, so she just fed. Then I had a large language model, the bullet points.

00;44;16;00 – 00;44;39;10

Madeleine Beekman

So these are the point I want to make in the presentation. Please make me presentation. Yeah. The I made the presentation. But before she had to give the presentation, her computer crashed and she said I couldn’t remember a thing because I had not made it myself. So, yeah, thinking about the way you want to express your thoughts is essential.

00;44;39;15 – 00;45;13;25

Madeleine Beekman

So if we outsource all that to AI, especially when we do that in schools, when kids are supposed to learn stuff. Yeah. I don’t think this will end well. And the sun’s like a very doom scenario scenario. But I just think people are realizing that they’re different, the downsides of using AI in that way. But what I find more interesting, which is more related to, I think what your question was about, what I find interesting is that especially when you use an AI that speaks to you, which I don’t.

00;45;13;28 – 00;45;14;25

Dr. Mona

Yeah, I’m.

00;45;14;27 – 00;45;39;13

Madeleine Beekman

Getting this feeling that you’re actually talking to a human because language for us is so human, because we are the only ones that speak. But we tend to now give more importance to a bit of machine, a machine that talks to us than perhaps we do to an actual human being, but we’re not talking to. And I find that a very scary development.

00;45;39;16 – 00;45;54;03

Madeleine Beekman

So some people now claim that they have a relationship with an algorithm. And it’s, it’s interesting because again, I listen to a lot of podcasts clearly because I’ve this is must be the third time that I mention a podcast that.

00;45;54;09 – 00;46;07;25

Dr. Mona

I love, but I love, I love the podcasts you’re listening to because they’re very interested in. So thank you. Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

00;46;07;27 – 00;46;34;07

Madeleine Beekman

Oh, so the question was, what is AI dangerous, these kinds of AI? Well, you you you talk to them and they are not an argument that someone made was special for elderly people again, who are just by themselves if they have something to talk to, even if it’s a machine that may actually be beneficial. So let’s dismiss it out of hand.

00;46;34;07 – 00;46;59;03

Madeleine Beekman

But it’s just I’m a little bit fearful that we tend to give more agency to something that doesn’t have agency just because it speaks like us, and at the same time, you know, have all these other amazing animals around. For example, our closest relatives, chimpanzees, gorillas, and we’re still destroying the habitat because we don’t care enough about them, because they don’t speak.

00;46;59;03 – 00;47;20;29

Madeleine Beekman

So we have to find the right balance. So I think great technology can be used in a great way, but just be careful how it’s used. It’s an it’s definitely very interesting to see how we change our relationships with machines. Now they can speak. That’s why I don’t want to have any voice coming out of my computer unless it’s from a human being.

00;47;20;29 – 00;47;40;08

Dr. Mona

I feel the same. I haven’t used the audio function, nor do I ever talk to my AI. I always type to my AI when I’m using it for, information gathering. A lot of it is for, like, I want to just search. What? When was the last time this country was in the World Cup? Like, you know, again, it’s becoming a search engine that is really, really, amazing.

00;47;40;10 – 00;48;05;02

Dr. Mona

But I love what you said about the fact that there is benefit to the elderly there. You know, I look at AI as really helping, with maybe language translation or maybe that, I know a lot of my peers struggle with, executive functioning with ADHD, and they struggle with organization. And maybe an AI system can help be that assisted piece on organization because they lack that themselves.

00;48;05;02 – 00;48;25;06

Dr. Mona

But, but that takes a human understanding, their, their strengths, their weaknesses, trying and then figuring out what’s best for them. But I love that you mentioned that. And I, I also think that we need to really respect the fact that we don’t want it to ever take, take away the language development, which is there.

00;48;25;06 – 00;48;44;01

Dr. Mona

And also, for me, I’m very big on cognitive development, which goes hand in hand with language, too, you know, like, obviously childhood cognitive development. An article that I wrote earlier this year talked about how, a lot of employers are finding it difficult to hire people in Gen Z, and there’s so many different reasons as to why.

00;48;44;01 – 00;49;06;16

Dr. Mona

But they talked a lot about how there’s a lack of creativity, there’s a lack of adaptability, there’s a lack of innovative thinking. And I think about when we have so much information at our fingertips, we’re losing what I had before the tech generation boomed. Right. Which is again, I was a child of the 90s. The tech boom happened late 90s, early 2000, and I was in the Dewey Decimal system like looking for a book.

00;49;06;16 – 00;49;24;14

Dr. Mona

I was having to make errors and figure out, okay, what am I going to do about this topic? Like there’s so much that comes with that troubleshooting. And also that troubleshooting when you do it with a caregiver or a teacher, going back to your comment on like communication and connection versus me asking an AI system, is this right?

00;49;24;21 – 00;49;46;19

Dr. Mona

Which is not a real human right, like we should be learning from humans in terms of building our cognitive repertoire, rapport and repertoire here. But like I fear that so many students this day and age are just utilizing like even if they are doing it on their own, checking their work with AI to me is a problem because it’s taking away what you made that point earlier that well, what where is the connection then?

00;49;46;19 – 00;50;14;25

Dr. Mona

Like where is the human being? That’s teaching you this stuff and walking you through this because there’s so much power in that that you can’t get from a robot. But as we’re talking about evolution, it’s so interesting to me, like as we’ve entered a tech age, like I’m very curious about when we think about the next hundreds, thousands of years, if our world is still existent with global global warming and climate change, what will we look like if we’re utilizing tech so much?

00;50;14;25 – 00;50;37;13

Dr. Mona

Like, have you thought about that, like from an evolutionary perspective, like not being, you know, we already know and I don’t know if you know this, but like vision, right. We’re not meant to be looking at close objects all the time. Right. Our vision is meant to be looking in the distance. And that’s why we see a lot of myopia, which is nearsightedness, because we’re doing a lot of close work, which is, you know, reading but also tech work.

00;50;37;20 – 00;50;55;12

Dr. Mona

And that’s why we see a lot of nearsightedness in children and a lot of the education that we give around that is like the importance of being outside, like our ancestors are Homo sapiens, right? Like our back in when when human beings roamed the earth, they didn’t need glasses because they were looking at in the distance a lot, you know?

00;50;55;15 – 00;51;10;11

Dr. Mona

But there’s so much that is changing with our human body that I’m just very curious what’s going to happen in the next generations. Obviously took so long for things to show up. With the tech boom, you know, and I don’t know if you ever gave that any thought of, like, what it could be. I don’t know, we don’t have answers.

00;51;10;11 – 00;51;13;04

Dr. Mona

But, you know, if there will be an impact. Evolutionary speaking.

00;51;13;09 – 00;51;37;00

Madeleine Beekman

Well, the interesting thing is, have you heard of the Flynn effect? The Flynn effect? No. Describes a rapid increase in IQ. I think that was measured since the 1970s or 80s in. He was Flynn was a New Zealander or maybe still alive, actually. So this was done in the United States, New Zealand and Australia, I think maybe also Europe.

00;51;37;00 – 00;52;02;27

Madeleine Beekman

So they found that with each generation the average IQ went up. Well surprise, surprise. That’s now going down. And why is that. Well one plausible explanation is that well as we discussed if you rely more and more on technology you don’t do just thinking. So if you don’t make the connections yourself anymore then your cognitive abilities may well decline.

00;52;03;04 – 00;52;45;28

Madeleine Beekman

And I think we we see it in the younger generation. So I think you mentioned it earlier that employers have a hard time finding people to fill jobs because lack of creativity, lack of initiative, lack of self-confidence, there’s a lot, of course, a lot of things at play. But if you believe someone like Jonathan Hyde, the the social media has a lot to answer for the fact that we don’t have normal relationships anymore, or many of us don’t have normal relationships anymore, but we live in this extremely connected world with us, with at the same time is totally disconnected because you don’t actually interact with humans anymore.

00;52;46;00 – 00;53;18;22

Madeleine Beekman

I have a an acquaintance who is totally he’s in his 50s, so he’s not a young boy totally addicted to social media. And it makes him extremely unhappy because there’s so much vitriol, because it’s so much easier to say, well, you you’re a whatever, whatever, whatever when you type it, then when you’re looking someone in the face and you tell them something nasty and then you have to deal with, you know, the pain that you have caused in a, in a normal relationship.

00;53;18;25 – 00;53;23;28

Madeleine Beekman

So I think that’s all those developments are quite negative, I think.

00;53;24;00 – 00;53;46;16

Dr. Mona

And that takes so much insight. Like you mentioned earlier, you were talking about the insight and the, you know, interception of like looking at what you need. When I asked you that question about like, how do we figure out what it is that, you know, we need in our life, the, the village. You know, that question I had, and that’s part of this, you know, like that, that introspection, that understanding of here’s what I’m good at, here’s what I need, here’s where I’m using this too much.

00;53;46;22 – 00;54;09;12

Dr. Mona

I’m starting to like, I there was a time where I was using AI a little bit too much for tasks that I can do, and it’s because it’s so convenient that I and I felt a little more dumb. I’m going to use that terminology. Like I felt a little more dumb, and I, I know myself so much to say that because I’m like, man, I just feel like like I’m just losing my sharpness, like my my what I’ve always prided myself on.

00;54;09;17 – 00;54;27;17

Dr. Mona

And so I step back a lot, you know? And I had to use that insight, like you mentioned. And I think that inside of civil service, so many places, you know, for me and I, for the listener, like as someone who does a lot of parenting content and I think I’ll do deeper dives into this because it’s something that’s very fascinating, but like, it’s very important for my son to do all these mundane.

00;54;27;17 – 00;54;41;25

Dr. Mona

And I say my son because he’s older, we’ll do the same for our daughter. But like remembering our phone numbers, like my husband and my phone number, not from just because of this, but from a safety standpoint. Like he needs to know our numbers. He needs to know where we live. He needs to know the street we live on.

00;54;41;25 – 00;55;02;10

Dr. Mona

Right. Because he’s six. He won’t blurt that out to everyone. Now. So for our safety, but it’s so vital for his brain to keep learning how to store those important numbers and important facts and things for the family. I know we talked about so much more than language. We talked about evolution. We talked about how it, you know, how it relates to cognitive development.

00;55;02;15 – 00;55;04;29

Dr. Mona

What would be your final message for everyone tuning in today?

00;55;05;02 – 00;55;13;19

Madeleine Beekman

Talk. Keep talking. It doesn’t matter where you talk about. Just keep talking, talking and cuddling. I think also the two most important points.

00;55;13;21 – 00;55;27;25

Dr. Mona

When my son comes back from his trip with his dad, I’m going to do so much more of that. And I think for the parent listening, sometimes when our little two kids are talking so much because our brains are overwhelmed, we’re like, oh my gosh, but think about how they are in the purest forms. They haven’t been. I’m going to use this word.

00;55;27;29 – 00;55;51;19

Dr. Mona

They haven’t been corrupted by social media. I stress all the things capitalism, whatever you want to blame, I don’t care. But they’re in their purest developmental form and we could learn a lot from them. I talk about, you know, like just how carefree they are, how they just want to talk and tell you about their day and it just takes us to remember that that is what we need to go back to.

00;55;51;19 – 00;55;55;13

Dr. Mona

And I just love that so much. And I love this conversation. Thank you for coming on today.

00;55;55;13 – 00;56;05;09

Madeleine Beekman

And the questions they ask. I mean, yes, so curious. Ask the most beautiful questions, Hence all of that.

00;56;05;12 – 00;56;23;12

Dr. Mona

That’s the beauty about online now is that I like back in the 90s. I remember that if I wanted to remember like a movie or a song, if there was no internet. So if I didn’t remember it, I would never learn it. Right? Like meaning because you, how are you going to search it? Unless you talk to your friend and you’re like, hey, what’s that song that goes like this?

00;56;23;18 – 00;56;49;12

Dr. Mona

And now with all the tech, we can hum it into a AI system. We can like do all these things, but like try to think like use that brain before reaching for social or AI because you’re going to find yourself more smart. I know it like I want us to be the sophisticated Homo sapiens that we are and continue to be the the strongest, the strongest out there in terms of brain and, you know, brain and, cognitive prowess.

00;56;49;12 – 00;56;55;01

Dr. Mona

So I really appreciate you coming on today. This is fantastic. Where can everyone go to stay connected and also get your book?

00;56;55;05 – 00;57;18;21

Madeleine Beekman

Well, the book thickened by anywhere, but it’s published by Simon and Schuster. I also have a Substack which is called Evolution Explained, which isn’t just about humans, but it’s about evolution. That’s a lot of humans. There’s a lot of language and the importance of writing, etc. and of course, I would love people to read the Substack, so it’s just search for my name on Substack.

00;57;18;21 – 00;57;20;04

Madeleine Beekman

I think you can find it.

00;57;20;11 – 00;57;29;11

Dr. Mona

I just want to thank you so much for joining me today and for sharing your expertise. And I can’t wait to pick your brain more on all the work that you’re doing. In regards to this area.

00;57;29;13 – 00;57;33;24

Madeleine Beekman

Well, thank you for inviting me.

00;57;33;26 – 00;57;50;29

Dr. Mona

Is anyone else nerding out right now? Because I love this conversation. I feel like we covered a millions of years of evolution and somehow brought it back to our babies, our families, and the way we communicate every single day. And I think my biggest takeaway is just how much of our humanity is rooted in connection. I felt this all the time.

00;57;50;29 – 00;58;12;01

Dr. Mona

It’s going to be part of my book. Think about it. Our babies come into this world completely dependent on us. They cry, they make faces, they reach for us, and eventually they start communicating and talking. All of these are ways of communicating their needs and connecting with the people around them. And Madeline’s theory gives us such interesting ways to think about why communication became so important to our survival as a species.

00;58;12;04 – 00;58;33;03

Dr. Mona

But I also love the reminder that humans evolve to cooperate, to share information, to help one another raise children. And yet so many parents today are trying to do everything on their own. So if you’re feeling exhausted by parenting, I hope this episode gives you some perspective on why community and support matter so much. And I want to leave you with something Madeline said at the end of our conversation.

00;58;33;06 – 00;58;53;03

Dr. Mona

Keep talking and keep cuddling. I think we all could use some connection and some cuddling. I hope this conversation helps you appreciate the incredible development happening right in front of you. And maybe the next time your child asks you their 47th question of the day. And remember that their curiosity and desire to communicate are part of what makes us human.

00;58;53;05 – 00;59;15;08

Dr. Mona

If you enjoyed this episode, please send it to a parent who loves understanding the why behind child development or someone who’s fascinated by human evolution. I’m sending it to my dad and share it on Social Tag, the PedsDocTalk podcast, PedsDocTalk so I can see what you thought of this conversation. And check out Madeleine’s book, The Origin of Language How We Learn to Speak and Why, and her Substack Evolution Explained.

00;59;15;14 – 00;59;29;17

Dr. Mona

Linked in the show notes. Thank you for being here, for continuing to learn alongside of me and for supporting PedsDocTalk. Until next time, stay curious, keep connecting, and remember that those little conversations with your little one can mean more than you realize.