On this episode I welcome Diana Martins, certified sleep consultant.  Find her on Instagram @weesleep_diana.

We discuss:

• Understanding your “why” with sleep training
• Cultural barriers in sleep education
• Communicating with grandparents regarding your sleep choices

00;00;08;27 – 00;00;31;29

Dr. Mona

Welcome to this week’s episode, where I am so excited to welcome one of my favorite accounts on social media. Her name is Diana Martins and she is a certified sleep consultant. On Instagram, as we sleep underscore Diana and we’re talking all about infant and child sleep and cultural barriers. Thank you so much for joining me today, Diana.

 

00;00;32;02 – 00;00;40;13

Diana Martins

Thank you so much for having me, doctor. Mona, I am so honored. So happy to talk about this topic with you. And hello to all your lovely listeners.

 

00;00;40;15 – 00;00;49;01

Dr. Mona

Well, I’m so happy that we connected on social media, Instagram and that you’re on here today. But tell me a little bit more about yourself and why you became a sleep consultant.

 

00;00;49;03 – 00;01;14;23

Diana Martins

Yeah, so I’m based here in Toronto in Ontario, Canada. I became a sleep consultant because it was a transformation. It wasn’t just a change that I experienced when, you know, I started to get rest with my son, but it was a true transformation. When my son, who didn’t sleep longer than two hours at a time and then all of a sudden, my goodness, the first night of sleep training, he slept for 12.

 

00;01;14;26 – 00;01;35;21

Diana Martins

So you can imagine. I thought this was magic. Yeah. Before this happened, I never heard of sleep training. It wasn’t done in my family. Sleep wasn’t really talked about. Nor did I know you could hire a person, a whole person, to help guide you throughout this. So now, Mona, this is what I do all day, every day.

 

00;01;35;21 – 00;01;39;17

Diana Martins

And I am so passionate because I know how it can change your life.

 

00;01;39;26 – 00;02;02;09

Dr. Mona

And I love that. And, you know, when we connected and we were coming up with topics, we chose to talk about infant child sleep and cultural barriers, cultural insecurities, all the things that our culture and our upbringing can bring into how we approach parenting. And of course, sleep is part of our parenting philosophy. So why is this topic in particular so important to you?

 

00;02;02;12 – 00;02;19;12

Diana Martins

I think it’s important because for me personally, it was a huge barrier. I was the first of the first. My son was the first of the first. We never did this before. So I feel like if, you know, going to my mother in law, going to my mom, like, how do I get this kid to sleep? If they had said like, oh, do this, this, this, is this.

 

00;02;19;12 – 00;02;47;08

Diana Martins

Like they had done this to us before or something like that. If they could offer me more science space advice, I wouldn’t have struggled the way I did. So when I’m coaching parents, I need to know everything. I need to know what they’re really up against, and that is how I can help them. Because when there’s a cultural stigma or a taboo, it’s just another hurdle to accomplishing something that’s already hard, right?

 

00;02;47;14 – 00;03;13;02

Diana Martins

And it’s not just about getting through the crying. That’s not what it’s about. Everyone needs to understand why we’re doing this and what the benefit is, and how we can still honor our roots and honor our traditions, but still achieve, healthy sleep for our child. So it is important. It’s just another barrier that people can face. And that’s why I’m so passionate about it and addressing it.

 

00;03;13;05 – 00;03;17;08

Dr. Mona

Oh, that is absolutely true. And what ethnicity are you?

 

00;03;17;11 – 00;03;20;22

Diana Martins

Oh, so this is an issue. I am in the Caribbean Canadian.

 

00;03;20;22 – 00;03;21;26

Dr. Mona

So yes.

 

00;03;21;26 – 00;03;39;01

Diana Martins

Yeah. Yeah. So my parents are Guyanese obviously from the Indian diaspora. My husband is they’re going from India. But you know, go on has another Portuguese element to it. So yeah. Where our kids are going. Yes, I describe it.

 

00;03;39;03 – 00;03;59;12

Dr. Mona

Well, I think the reason why I think this is such an important conversation is it’s not even just about culture, like, meaning ethnic culture. Right? We talk about just philosophy in general, like you mentioned, like your mom or the aunties, like they maybe never did this. This way. Right. They didn’t know what we know now about sleep and wake windows and everything that we know about, you know, in terms of sleep for infants and children.

 

00;03;59;18 – 00;04;19;14

Dr. Mona

So of course, it’s not like what they did was bad or what they actually, we turned out fine. But it’s now that we know more. And sometimes it can be that cultural generational clash, if you will, like. I know even if you’re not quote unquote ethnic, you know, if you want to use that word, this episode is gonna be so useful because you could have this clash from your generational differences.

 

00;04;19;14 – 00;04;34;10

Dr. Mona

So, you know, how to how to tell your parents, like, hey, this is something that’s working and that we want to do or, you know, this is why it’s really helpful. And we’ll talk about that. I guess you mentioned perfectly, like, you always want to get to know your clients and talk about, you know, where they’re coming from.

 

00;04;34;10 – 00;04;41;20

Dr. Mona

So when approaching sleep with a newborn and beyond, what questions do you think parents should be asking themselves?

 

00;04;41;23 – 00;05;05;29

Diana Martins

So, some questions is that they need to get clear on their why. They need to understand that sleep is a very holistic element. They need to understand also that it’s not just them that’s caring for the child. Everyone in the family, needs to be on board. I think that they should also weigh the pros and cons because again, it’s not an easy thing to do.

 

00;05;05;29 – 00;05;31;16

Diana Martins

If it was easy, everyone would do it right. You know what is really important to them in their parenting? Do they want to practice? I say New Age because the way my parents raised me was completely different. But, very. Do you want to practice that positive parenting where you don’t do discipline, quote unquote, but you use other techniques to kind of get your child to understand and still correct behavior without, quote unquote, using formal discipline.

 

00;05;31;16 – 00;05;53;22

Diana Martins

Right. So just what kind of parent do you want to be? And if you are clear on your why and why it’s important to you, for example, if room sharing or bed sharing make it work for you, right? Like you can make it work because of this really, really, really important to you. If I give you this plan and it clashes with your lifestyle, then it’s not going to be sustainable.

 

00;05;53;22 – 00;06;04;28

Diana Martins

So I always kind of ask, you know, what’s your why? Why do you want to do this? How are you going to get support outside of when we’re done our ten days together or whatever? So yeah.

 

00;06;05;10 – 00;06;15;27

Dr. Mona

I mean, that’s so true. You know, going into this topic a little more now, what are some common cultural barriers that you see that can impact the way we look at sleep for our infants and kids?

 

00;06;15;29 – 00;06;34;22

Diana Martins

Yeah, yeah, that’s a good question. I actually polled some of my past clients on what they were told. Right. So, one thing was that, oh, the dark room, the dark room, the dark room is I get a lot of pushback on that because I feel like the dark room is scary. Then I’ve got to go and I’m like, are you afraid of the dark?

 

00;06;34;22 – 00;06;53;04

Diana Martins

Is there something actually scary in the dark? And then we’ve got to dive deeper on that right now. Some people have been instilled from a young age that the dark is scary. Other things like, why would you pay for this? Why can’t you just rock them like you’ve done for generations? We would never let you cry. You just slept when you were tired.

 

00;06;53;10 – 00;07;19;05

Diana Martins

Those are things that we hear. And or my clients hear from their own families, even to this day. Doctor Mona, when my dad shows up at my house at like 738 and he’s like, all the kids are in bed already. It’s like, yeah, yeah. So, it’s just things like that. I always kind of ask them, you know, if you feel like the crying is going to be hard.

 

00;07;19;05 – 00;07;23;24

Diana Martins

Okay, let’s think about this. What are your beliefs around crying.

 

00;07;24;15 – 00;07;24;25

Dr. Mona

Yep.

 

00;07;25;03 – 00;07;45;07

Diana Martins

Is it letting them just cried out or is it giving them an opportunity. Yes to themselves. Right. So that is an important question. Like what do you think. Just give me your straight up. Because if they can be honest with me then I can kind of help them through that. Like I’ll tell you a quick little story. I had a mom I was working with, and when I asked her that, she was like, you know, what?

 

00;07;45;07 – 00;08;03;15

Diana Martins

Flashback to me? And I was like, what? And she’s like, I had a memory. I was a teenager, mind you, but, you know, I got into a fight with my parents, and I ran into my closet, and I hid, and I cried alone, and no one came for me. So bringing that up to now sleep training. You know, her son’s in a dark room.

 

00;08;03;18 – 00;08;17;06

Diana Martins

He’s going to be, you know, all that stuff. You know it affects how you parent. So that’s something that she had to work through and heal almost before she could sleep train.

 

00;08;17;08 – 00;08;35;05

Dr. Mona

Oh this is all such good stuff. I mean I don’t even know where to begin in terms of unpacking this, but you mentioned with your dad coming over and, you know, the kids being in bed early. So how do we navigate cultural or family traditions and sleep schedule? So for example, like staying up late for a special occasion, I’m sure obviously we all want to do that.

 

00;08;35;05 – 00;08;37;03

Dr. Mona

What would be your advice to families.

 

00;08;37;05 – 00;09;00;24

Diana Martins

Yeah. So some cultures have evening rituals. For example. You know Diwali is coming up and the fun really begins in the evening and perhaps past a baby’s normal bedtime. So can we plan for this? Can we just think about our child’s sleep, where we could possibly allow for like a later nap or slightly later bedtime? You know, one time I saw a post actually on Instagram in a church in the States.

 

00;09;00;24 – 00;09;23;02

Diana Martins

Actually, they created like a nap time room and they had like five slumber pods lined up so that parents could still attend the service even though it was usually through, a child’s nap time. So if we can just have, a conversation or think about it, I think that way you’re still able to really support your child and not feel like like, oh my God.

 

00;09;23;02 – 00;09;39;24

Diana Martins

Like I’m not providing the basic native sleep, but I’ve got this Diwali party to go to, right? You’re not, you hear porn. Especially when you can just do it for one night. You know, it’s not going to undo all the hard work or make that big of a difference or something like that. Just plan for it.

 

00;09;39;26 – 00;09;56;28

Dr. Mona

Now, this is so important. I think it is really important to balance schedules with those one offs that are going to happen, or two offs, you know, it’s okay to kind of break the rules and prepare for it too. And every family is going to do things a little bit differently, like some families will just break the schedule and deal with it later.

 

00;09;57;01 – 00;10;11;00

Dr. Mona

Other families will want to prepare for it a little bit more. So finding out what works best for you and your family. But being allowed and okay to enjoy these events if it’s something that you want to do, is totally okay. And sometimes you just need that guidance, like Diana says.

 

00;10;11;02 – 00;10;12;02

Diana Martins

Absolutely.

 

00;10;12;05 – 00;10;33;06

Dr. Mona

I’m happy you’re discussing the cry angle, because that is something that I see in so many different families. And again, it’s not even just certain cultures. It’s a lot of people have been and still that crying is always bad, crying is bad. And we’re again, there’s so many different methods to teach children how to sleep. But when we talk about crying, that opportunity comment is so right on.

 

00;10;33;06 – 00;10;51;19

Dr. Mona

Like, you know, we’re talking about just taking a moment to see what they do. Sometimes that means that you’re going to see some crying and then they go to sleep. And it’s not neglect, it’s not abandonment. It’s just let’s give them an opportunity. And if they need us, we’re going to go in. We’re going to do our method that we normally do, whether that’s, you know, padding whatever method that the family decides on.

 

00;10;51;25 – 00;11;10;14

Dr. Mona

But that initial. Yeah. Oh that initial like, oh well, you know the crying in it’s own entity is is bad. It’s a problem across all of parenting, not just sleep. Right? I mean, we look at sleep as it but when a child is learning a developmental skill and they cry, okay, they don’t like it. Well, of course they don’t love it, but it doesn’t mean it’s harmful.

 

00;11;10;14 – 00;11;34;03

Dr. Mona

Like, I think we need to really disassociate crying to mean something is wrong versus crying can just mean this is something new for me. And I think that’s where sleep training and crying, whether it’s for a couple minutes or longer, needs to be differentiated because it’s not like something’s wrong or bad. It’s like, no, we’re just giving a child an opportunity to get used to this new situation, but it doesn’t mean that it’s a bad thing.

 

00;11;34;03 – 00;11;49;21

Dr. Mona

And I use the example of like a kid who hates tummy time. Of course, they’re not going to love it the first time they ever do it, the 10th time they ever do it, because it’s like, no, a child who go swimming for the first time or the first ten times, it’s like new for them. They’re like, wait, this is a new skill and a new thing that I have to learn.

 

00;11;49;21 – 00;12;11;04

Dr. Mona

I don’t know how I feel about it, but it’s not dangerous. It’s not bad. And I think that’s that’s such a good cultural thing that we need to shift. Now, how do you approach that situation? More so with parents like, how do you, you know, help them kind of understand and reframe that, like with what you did with that client, with the fact that she was in a dark room when she was younger and it kind of triggered some memories.

 

00;12;11;08 – 00;12;14;11

Dr. Mona

How do you reframe this in terms of a sleep situation?

 

00;12;14;13 – 00;12;30;16

Diana Martins

We have to talked about it. We have to get to the root. I try to like give examples like exactly what you gave. I’m like, look, I have a five year old. The first day I dropped him to karate, he cried his eyes off. Now he loves me, right? It’s a first. And going back to that opportunity, peace.

 

00;12;30;18 – 00;12;53;04

Diana Martins

Not only are you giving a child an opportunity, but the parents need the opportunity to learn what that cry means. Because right now, when a parent is so sleep deprived and they’re so tired, they can’t really emotionally regulate either. Yeah. So we do talk about, okay, what is your strategy? What are you going to do to calm yourself down?

 

00;12;53;10 – 00;13;12;01

Diana Martins

Right. You know, take water with you. Do you have like little meditation. Be like, what do you do as an adult to calm yourself down? Because I need you to use that skill and be able to self-regulate in that moment so you can stay calm for your child so that they can self-regulate. Right?

 

00;13;12;01 – 00;13;13;12

Dr. Mona

So yeah.

 

00;13;13;27 – 00;13;25;00

Diana Martins

Sometimes they truthfully tell me, I don’t know how I calm myself down. I’m like, let’s talk. So it’s more than just about the child at this point. It’s really about the parents.

 

00;13;25;03 – 00;13;44;23

Dr. Mona

Oh, absolutely. And this is like something with all of parenting, right? Like, I always whenever I have these situations in my office, I always remind the parent that we are of course, we’re going to help the child, but it’s really just reframing all of the things that we think should be the case, or that maybe our reservations or insecurities are there that really prohibit us from seeing and understanding child development.

 

00;13;44;23 – 00;13;57;27

Dr. Mona

And, you know, what are our options here? You know, and I think parents really need to know their options and understand that what they’re doing is not bad. What they’re doing is not going to harm their child. And I think that’s where a lot of your role in education comes in so beautifully.

 

00;13;58;00 – 00;14;15;25

Diana Martins

My job is to help the parents help their child. So I’m totally focused on the parents, like the baby. Is there a responsibility? They know what the cries mean. Sometimes I get them to send me videos if they’re unsure because you know, they don’t have the experience, that kind of stuff. But, it’s totally work on the parents.

 

00;14;15;25 – 00;14;20;08

Diana Martins

So that they can support their own child during this new skill that they’re learning. That’s up.

 

00;14;20;10 – 00;14;44;26

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And so I’m sure this has happened for you. And I would love to kind of know what you did. And maybe how you guide clients to. So you have a father who, you know, has his own views and maybe your mother or whoever comes into your home. And just so you have a choice on how you approach sleep with your child, how do you communicate cross-culturally, cross-generational, your choices with your parents, if they disagree?

 

00;14;44;26 – 00;14;51;04

Dr. Mona

And also, how do you do you ever find yourself having to guide the parents of, you know, your clients on how to navigate that?

 

00;14;51;06 – 00;15;08;27

Diana Martins

I always say, let’s have a family meeting, because this is the first time you guys are going to actually really advocate for your own self to parent, especially when they’re living with a joint family. So living with a joint family, everyone needs to understand that this is what’s going to happen, and this is what it can sound like.

 

00;15;08;27 – 00;15;27;15

Diana Martins

I feel like once parents are prepared and they have certain words or verbiage to use and like, this is what we need, we feel this is that’s like using the I statements, communicating very clearly as to why the last thing you want to do is throw signs at somebody. But like, well, the research shows like that’s not great.

 

00;15;28;06 – 00;15;45;21

Diana Martins

You definitely want to have that family meeting and understand what’s going to happen. How long is it going to take? Give people like facts. I usually try to do worst case scenarios, at least that way people can mentally prepare and then it’s so much better, so much better than what they expected.

 

00;15;45;23 – 00;16;00;15

Dr. Mona

Yeah, them being like blindsided and being like, well, this is what we’re going to do. Yeah. And it’s so true though like and also like sometimes I find like just saying, you know, I know this can be hard. Like just say a family’s doing, like a crying method. Okay. And that’s something that culturally is like, what are you doing?

 

00;16;01;01 – 00;16;14;14

Dr. Mona

Just saying. Hey, look, like, I know this can be really hard to hear. We have a plan. Like, if, you know there is crying for x amount of time, we will be checking in and you can come in with me, like having them, like, notice what happens. And then many times the baby will go to sleep and they’ll be like, oh.

 

00;16;14;19 – 00;16;28;18

Dr. Mona

And then they the baby wakes up and you’re like, oh no, it’s like nothing ever happened. Because it’s fine for that baby. But it’s definitely important to kind of guide them and show them so that they’re not feeling like, I agree with you that, oh, this research shows and this is what I’m doing and yelling and I get it.

 

00;16;28;18 – 00;16;49;05

Dr. Mona

And that first thing that you mention like checking in with your kind of y and your insecurities, like when you’re a parent or an in-law or something is going to see something, you’re going to be way more trigger than if it’s someone who’s your friend because you have baggage, like you have a whole childhood that maybe you were, you know, told to do things a certain way.

 

00;16;49;05 – 00;17;11;05

Dr. Mona

And so when someone says, why are you doing that? Even if it’s someone who, you know, you have a friend said the same exact thing. If it’s coming from a parent of yours, you may be a little more like upset about it because you have all this baggage that has come from your childhood that we don’t even realize sometimes, you know, like those unmet needs that were like, you know, you told me what to do all the time, and now you don’t believe in me as a parent, that you think what I’m doing is wrong.

 

00;17;11;07 – 00;17;12;28

Dr. Mona

It’s really important to recognize that.

 

00;17;12;28 – 00;17;14;23

Diana Martins

Yeah, 100%.

 

00;17;14;25 – 00;17;20;27

Dr. Mona

Oh, this is so great. Now, what would be a final message for everyone listening today?

 

00;17;21;17 – 00;17;43;20

Diana Martins

I think I wanted to say that like, we all come from different backgrounds. We’ve all had different experiences. But this is something I still tell my dad to the day is that, you know, our ancestors survived where we came from, where my family came from. It was just survival mode. So they survived so that, you know, we could thrive.

 

00;17;44;08 – 00;18;01;06

Diana Martins

And that so our children can strive, we have to do things differently. If I kept doing things the same way, we would get nowhere. It’s actually necessary to grow as a person. So that way you can propel your child in a different direction.

 

00;18;01;09 – 00;18;21;01

Dr. Mona

Higher to oh, I love that. And again, I just love your content. I love, how you approach the whole family in the sleep choices because oh my gosh, that is so clutch, right? We cannot do this alone. And like you said, you consult with a lot of families who may be enjoying household, which is a huge thing.

 

00;18;21;09 – 00;18;22;00

Diana Martins

 

00;18;22;25 – 00;18;28;20

Dr. Mona

Where can people find you for more information, you know Instagram website, any of your resources.

 

00;18;28;22 – 00;18;52;29

Diana Martins

Yeah. So as you mentioned at the beginning that, you can find me on Instagram, it’s we sleep, sleep underscore Diana. I do offer free complimentary calls to make sure that, you know, we’re a good fit if we decide to work together. I think that’s really important. I really have, strong connections with my clients. And even my past clients were still friends to these days.

 

00;18;53;18 – 00;18;59;14

Diana Martins

I also have a free sleep training Facebook group. So it’s, also found in the link to my Instagram bio.

 

00;18;59;15 – 00;18;59;24

Dr. Mona

Perfect.

 

00;18;59;26 – 00;19;12;23

Diana Martins

I do a live Q&A every month just to kind of take some questions, obviously packages and to book the call. Everything is basically on my Instagram link. So you be able to find everything. Regards to me there. Yeah.

 

00;19;12;23 – 00;19;31;15

Dr. Mona

Wonderful. And yes, definitely give her a follow for some great content and mom life. And it’s just so great again to talk to you. And thanks for joining and I’m sure I’ll have you on again for another topic, because we had to choose one topic today, and this was what we both were like, oh yeah, this is a great discussion, but I’m sure I’ll have you on again in the future.

 

00;19;31;17 – 00;19;32;25

Diana Martins

I’d love that so much.

 

00;19;32;25 – 00;19;48;17

Dr. Mona

Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review, share this episode with a friend, share it on your social media. Make sure to follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram and subscribe to my YouTube channel, PedsDocTalk TV. We’ll talk to you soon.