Is your four-year-old lining up toys? Do they love washing their hands over and over? Does your child get frustrated if routines are broken? Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) is a diagnosis we see, but not all behaviors are considered OCD. In honor of OCD Awareness Week, I welcome Michelle Massi who is a mom and a therapist (LMFT) specializing in working with kids, families and adults who struggle with anxiety, OCD and OC related disorders.

 

She joins me to discuss:

• The definition and characteristics of OCD
• If an “inflexible” toddler is a sign of OCD
• Misconceptions surrounding OCD
• Management strategies for OCD

 

To connect with Michelle Massi follow her on Instagram @anxietytherapyla, check out all her resources at https://anxietytherapyla.com/. Visit the International OCD Foundation at https://iocdf.org/ for additional resources.

 

Our podcasts are also now on YouTube. If you prefer a video podcast with closed captioning, check us out there and subscribe to PedsDocTalk TV.

 

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on the PedsDocTalk Podcast Sponsorships page of the website.

00;00;00;02 – 00;00;22;19
Michelle Massi
And then what we see a lot in kids is normal, everyday behavior. And I always joke with my colleagues, right? Like my kid when he was two, loved to line up his cars and he’d do it in color order or size order. Right. And we have to look at what’s normal toddler behavior or what’s normal behavior of any kid or even any adult.

00;00;22;21 – 00;00;24;23
Michelle Massi
And what is OCD?

00;00;24;26 – 00;00;44;19
Dr. Mona
Hello and welcome back to the show. I am your host, Doctor Mona, and I just want to say thank you so there are podcast rankings out there and I really don’t know what they mean. And if they really mean anything at all or how they are calculated. But we hit number 17 on the parenting podcast in the United States last week.

00;00;44;24 – 00;01;06;07
Dr. Mona
So thank you. I’m pretty sure that has to do with the fact that you’re listening to the show, leaving reviews and sharing it. So first of all, thank you so much. And before we get into our conversation today with my guest, I want to take a moment to talk about glimmers. Glimmers are those small moments of joy, peace, or connection that brighten our day even in the midst of chaos.

00;01;06;07 – 00;01;31;03
Dr. Mona
And as parents, it’s easy to get swept up in the hard stuff the stress, the exhaustion, the endless to do’s. But it’s so important to search for these glimmers. The last week, stress was high in our household, with a hurricane headed straight to our family in Tampa, Florida, and illnesses in our house. Whenever I know people are going to suffer using the hurricane as an example, I get very anxious even if I’m not personally affected.

00;01;31;06 – 00;01;52;28
Dr. Mona
And the hurricane passed and the next day in Florida, where we live, it was a beautiful sunny day, the first day of sunshine that we’ve had in seven days. We took the kids out and it was a breezy day and they flew a kite. And at that moment I felt a glimmer, a moment of pure peace that filled my heart with hope and love.

00;01;52;28 – 00;02;12;26
Dr. Mona
And I’m so happy I got it on video. And here’s the thing glimmers matter even more on the tough days when life feels overwhelming. Those little moments of light, a hug from your child, the smell of fresh air or a quiet cup of coffee or kids flying a kite can remind us that beauty still exists in the chaos.

00;02;12;28 – 00;02;36;07
Dr. Mona
They help us keep going, help us reset. It’s about shifting our focus, even just for a second, to the good that’s always around us. But sometimes there’s a little guilt that creeps and we might think, well, how can I enjoy this small moment when so many others are struggling? I’m here to tell you that it’s okay to feel glimmers, even when times are tough in your life, or when others around us are going through hard things.

00;02;36;10 – 00;03;05;15
Dr. Mona
Joy and hardship can coexist. Allowing yourself to appreciate the small things doesn’t mean that you’re ignoring challenges or that you feel like others people don’t suffer. It means you’re choosing resilience. In fact, those moments of joy fill our cups so we can show up more fully for ourselves and for others, especially our children. So before you continue on, think about the glimmers in your life today, those sparks of joy that remind you of the good in the world and the good in you.

00;03;05;17 – 00;03;30;10
Dr. Mona
Now let’s get to today’s conversation. Have you ever heard someone say, I’m so OCD but they actually don’t have OCD? In honor of OCD Awareness Week or Obsessive Compulsive Disorder Week, I welcome Michelle Massey, LMT and mom who is a therapist specializing in working with kids, families, and adults who struggle with anxiety, OCD, and OCD related disorders. We dive deep into understanding OCD in young children.

00;03;30;10 – 00;03;52;22
Dr. Mona
How to recognize the signs, what age we can begin diagnosing, and how it’s often linked to other conditions. We’ll also talk about the best ways to support a child with OCD and clear up some common misconceptions, including how to differentiate between common early childhood behaviors. And of course, we discuss why saying I’m so OCD when you don’t have OCD can actually be very insensitive to those with the diagnosis.

00;03;52;24 – 00;04;02;05
Dr. Mona
This conversation is full of insights to help you feel more empowered and informed as a parent. Let’s get to it. Thank you so much for joining me today, Michel.

00;04;02;08 – 00;04;03;13
Michelle Massi
Thank you for having me.

00;04;03;18 – 00;04;22;19
Dr. Mona
And we are doing this as a round tool. So let’s be honest about tech issues with podcasts. We had recorded an amazing episode and then it did not save. And so I had to have Michelle come on. So I’m going to get to learn about OCD for a second time from her. So thank you again for taking the time.

00;04;22;22 – 00;04;24;19
Dr. Mona
Round two to join me today.

00;04;24;21 – 00;04;28;05
Michelle Massi
My pleasure. I’m glad you could have me back in this worked out.

00;04;28;07 – 00;04;35;28
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And so tell us a bit more about yourself and the work that you do. For anyone who may not be familiar with who you are and what OCD might be.

00;04;36;00 – 00;05;11;22
Michelle Massi
Great. Thank you. So my name is Michelle Massey. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist. I practice in Los Angeles, California, although I’m licensed also in Texas, Georgia, Arizona. I think that’s it. And I do some therapy in, virtually in Florida, too. And I am, I specialize, I run a group practice. I specialize in treating anxiety disorders, OCD, OCD related disorders, which is includes tics, body focus, repetitive behaviors, all the anxiety disorders like social anxiety, which we see a lot in kids, generalized anxiety, etc..

00;05;11;25 – 00;05;20;00
Michelle Massi
I am also a faculty member at the international OCD Foundation, so I that means I just teach other clinicians how to do the work I do.

00;05;20;02 – 00;05;40;27
Dr. Mona
Amazing. And I am so excited that we could connect. Fun fact I have actually met Michelle in person at one of my social events. So she came to that event in LA and I love connecting with her. And then she told me about the work that she does. And you know, you’re doing a lot of work trying to educate other, you know, clinicians obviously, about this.

00;05;40;27 – 00;06;02;11
Dr. Mona
But as pediatricians, we are not OCD experts. I, I can only speak for myself. I’m not an expert. I rely on my therapists in my community who are experts in this niche to be the ones that I would refer my patients to, if I’m concerned. So, like we’ve always talked about on the show, it’s a team effort to get children the support that they need.

00;06;02;14 – 00;06;22;17
Dr. Mona
And the reason why I really wanted you to come on the show is that I get a lot of parents in my community who have children, who are younger, let’s say under five, who are unsure if certain behaviors that their child are doing are typical for their age, or if it’s OCD. You know, these three, four year olds that are, doing certain behaviors.

00;06;22;17 – 00;06;31;02
Dr. Mona
So can you discuss more about the signs of OCD and the typical age? We can begin to make that official diagnosis. Yes.

00;06;31;04 – 00;06;54;14
Michelle Massi
Sure. So OCD is compromised of or made up of obsessions and compulsions, meaning that a person has intrusive thoughts or images or words that get stuck in their head. It brings them anxiety or distress. Right? We always think of like, I’m so obsessed with Taylor Swift. That’s not the same as an obsession, right? As like, we’re excited about it.

00;06;54;14 – 00;07;27;05
Michelle Massi
I always joke with my clients, but, you know, when I was a kid and I would write in my notebook, like, I love so-and-so or Mrs.. You know, when I was four, I mean, 14 and like Mrs.. Whatever. That’s different that we call it obsessed, but that’s different. That does not bring about the distress that obsessions cause, my patients and then we have compulsions which are behaviors, whether they’re mental, like counting or repeating a phrase in your head or physical, like hand washing, checking the door locks, moving things around.

00;07;27;05 – 00;07;55;13
Michelle Massi
Right. Seeking reassurance. Those are done to decrease the distress or anxiety related or to prevent the bad thing from happening. Right. Like if I have this thought of, oh my God, what if the plane crashes? And if I hop up and down one time the plane won’t crash. There’s a connection there. So again, when I’m writing, like Mr. blah blah blah, or I love Taylor Swift, I’m not saying it to prevent something bad for me to happening to Taylor, right?

00;07;55;13 – 00;08;20;07
Michelle Massi
Like I’m doing it because I just genuinely love her music. And so that’s, that’s the difference between, like, what’s sort of like normal obsessions, and OCD. And then what we see a lot in kids is normal everyday behavior. And I always joke with my colleagues, right. Like my kid when he was two, loved to line up his cars and he’d do it in color, order or size order.

00;08;20;07 – 00;08;44;11
Michelle Massi
Right. And we have to look at what’s normal toddler behavior or what’s normal behavior of any kid or even any adult. And what is OCD, right? If I go to the bathroom, wash my hands, I don’t necessarily have OCD, even though it could be a symptom of OCD, but if I’m washing my hands, like up to my elbows or, you know, past my wrists for some reason, or, you know, pre-COVID, right?

00;08;44;11 – 00;09;04;15
Michelle Massi
Covid has a whole new like since Covid. We’ve like developed all these new things. But, you know, if I touch the sink and I have to start again, now we’re looking at a behavior that’s interfering with functioning, which is different than my son lining up his cars right now. I, my son is I think about six weeks or two months younger than Ryan.

00;09;04;18 – 00;09;22;23
Michelle Massi
And your son, and, I don’t know if your son does this, but he has all of his friends that sleep with him, and there’s, like, now. Yes, 30, probably friends and his dad. And they have a very I mean, like, it maybe takes like two minutes to set them up at night. But there’s a very specific place they go right now.

00;09;22;23 – 00;09;43;22
Michelle Massi
I could look at that. It’s a symptom of OCD. It could be because it could be a symptom of of like behaviors of just right or needing to have them in a certain way so something bad doesn’t happen. Or it could just be normal, like preschool behavior of I like all my friends where I have my friends, and this is where they each have their spot, right?

00;09;43;23 – 00;09;49;12
Michelle Massi
The special ones are on the right side, the not on special or on the left side.

00;09;49;15 – 00;10;10;08
Dr. Mona
I am into this because yes, and it actually started the lining up of the of the stuffies happened probably in the last six months. So my son is almost five in December. And it is so funny. Yes. Because they have to be there’s like I can visualize it on his bed right now. There’s four of them in our house, in his bed, and they all have their particular order, and they have to be in that order.

00;10;10;08 – 00;10;26;19
Dr. Mona
And I love that you’re you said it perfectly. The behavior is interfering with function, meaning it’s a small thing. It’s not like he wakes up in the middle of the night and is like, mommy, my stuffies aren’t there. Or like he’s panicked. Or that he comes home from school and he’s worried about his stuffies. Like being where they’re supposed to be.

00;10;26;19 – 00;10;41;00
Dr. Mona
Like he’s still able to function, even though in that moment he wants it where he wants it. Is that kind of like the understanding for how we would differentiate typical toddler preschooler behavior to actually being a condition like OCD?

00;10;41;02 – 00;10;59;02
Michelle Massi
Yeah. And I also want to watch kind of where it goes. Right. Like, are we still doing this at ten years old? Right. All right. Or not that ten year olds can’t sleep with stuffies, I definitely did, but, you know, how is this behavior manifesting over time? How much time are we spending an hour setting them up a certain way?

00;10;59;06 – 00;11;19;20
Michelle Massi
Or if one slightly falls, we have to fix it. Is there a meltdown? Right. We’re looking now, obviously at bedtime there are sometimes meltdowns just because it’s bedtime and we’re tired right. But we’re looking kind of at a big picture. I know you’ve talked about this with a lot of your, like, feeding stuff with, with kids is that we’re looking at the big picture, not at each meal.

00;11;19;20 – 00;11;38;04
Michelle Massi
Is the child eating enough? But, you know, over the day, over the week, are they consuming enough food? Right. And to not worry about each specific. So the same thing happens and that’s it’s like, are we just having a meltdown one day? Are we just lining things up one day? Or look at the big picture. How much is it interfering and day to day functioning?

00;11;38;11 – 00;11;49;23
Michelle Massi
Can I not go on a date with my husband because nobody else knows how to put my kid to bed? Because he has online everything up, right? Like, are there like, what are the kind of wave patterns of what’s going on?

00;11;49;29 – 00;12;18;12
Dr. Mona
I love it, and this is so important because like we said, with so many things in child psychology, child development, it is very, very likely that it is just a typical child development. And it’s not not something like OCD. I remember watching a social media video of like, there was a camera in like a preschool class and all the kids were lining up to go to whatever recess or whatever, and there was one child that stayed behind to help the teacher push all the chairs in.

00;12;18;17 – 00;12;37;04
Dr. Mona
So like he wanted to help push the chairs in before that would be the child. Yeah. And and then, you know, it’s so funny. Ryan would do the same and I then I made the mistake of going into the comment section and everyone was, everyone was saying, oh, that child probably has OCD. It’s not cute. It’s actually probably some like a, you know, something that needs diagnosis.

00;12;37;04 – 00;12;59;13
Dr. Mona
And I said, you’re watching one moment like, we can’t make that assumption. Could it be like you said, Michelle, like, could it be that this child has it? Absolutely. And I don’t want parents to ever think that. Well, you know, then no one’s listening to me that it’s I feel this concern. But we also have to realize that it could just be a helpful, orderly child, but it’s not impacting, you know, like we talked about the function and overall.

00;12;59;16 – 00;13;19;02
Dr. Mona
But I was like, I didn’t even I was going to start commenting and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, it’s not not worth it. But I was like, can we just take this moment as like a kid who was helpful and like gave a high five to the teacher on the way out and, you know, leave it to the teacher and the parents to figure out if this is something that needs to be worked up or diagnosed, as something more than just helping, pushing chairs.

00;13;19;05 – 00;13;21;01
Michelle Massi
Right? Yeah, yeah.

00;13;21;03 – 00;13;42;10
Dr. Mona
And, you know, we know that with a lot of developmental, conditions that there can be some overlap, right? Like we see, for example, using ADHD, autism, anxiety that there can be some overlap of these conditions. Is OCD commonly associated with other diagnoses or conditions? Now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors.

00;13;42;12 – 00;14;08;07
Michelle Massi
Yes, we often see, comorbid like both diagnoses having the same time a lot with just in general the other anxiety disorders, social anxiety, generalized anxiety disorder, occasionally selective mutism. And then we see it a lot with tics or Tourette’s, autism, ADHD and the hard part and, and actually body focused repetitive behaviors like hair pulling and skin picking.

00;14;08;09 – 00;14;30;17
Michelle Massi
We often, you know, the hard part with some of these diagnoses is that the symptoms overlap, right? Is a kiddo in school not focusing because they’re having obsessions running through their head all day? Or do they have inattentive ADHD. Right. And they can concentrate. Are they doing a repetitive behavior because of autism or because of OCD or both?

00;14;30;23 – 00;14;52;12
Michelle Massi
Right. So I often when I’m, when I’m, checking in with parents, but also when I’m teaching other clinicians, we want to look at the functionality similar to what I was saying in terms of like, is this, a diagnosable disorder or normal everyday behavior? In the same way of trying to figure out the different disorders is what’s the functionality of the behaviors?

00;14;52;15 – 00;15;13;14
Dr. Mona
And I’m, I’m realizing then that, you know, we’re describing obviously there being so much overlap with other conditions as well, when you’re kind of deciding about making a diagnosis, are there certain things that you’re looking at? I mean, I’m sure there’s multiple visits involved. Is there a form that parents fill out? What goes into making that diagnosis and having that official, OCD label?

00;15;13;14 – 00;15;34;08
Michelle Massi
Yeah. So it depends on where you go, right. Some people will go to a clinical psychologist and have a full neuro psych assessment and get a lot of information. You don’t need that to be diagnosed with OCD, but especially if there’s autism or, ADHD in question, somebody might be sent there and then also be diagnosed with anxiety or OCD.

00;15;34;11 – 00;15;53;15
Michelle Massi
But in an if a person just comes to my practice to get diagnosed, I’m doing what I call a bio psychosocial, which is exactly what it sounds like. I’m essentially just getting a history of what’s going on, what’s been going on, how are these behaviors, interfering or how are they functioning in that person’s life? What’s going on in the home?

00;15;53;15 – 00;16;11;20
Michelle Massi
Who lives in the home? And I do this regardless of age. And I’m working with a kiddo that I’m interviewing the parents mainly, if I’m working with an older kid or adults, then obviously I’m just chatting in with them and maybe checking in with family members. And then there’s something called the why? Back to the Yale brand obsessive compulsive scale for children.

00;16;11;20 – 00;16;33;21
Michelle Massi
There’s the box, that most therapists with who who treat OCD will do not all because, you know, sometimes I just can rattle these off in my head and I don’t necessarily give a formal assessment. But I’m looking for that connection between the obsessions and compulsions. And there’s a lot of overlap between, like, generalized anxiety disorder and OCD.

00;16;33;23 – 00;16;53;16
Michelle Massi
And symptoms are looking the same and trying to tease apart again the functionality, the behaviors that are going on the, the, compulsions or is it just reassurance seeking that we often see in generalized anxiety disorder like, am I going to die in my sleep tonight? Are you sure you’re going to pick me up tomorrow from school or things like that?

00;16;53;18 – 00;17;00;03
Michelle Massi
Or am I looking at a, you know, cause a fact between the obsession and the compulsion?

00;17;00;05 – 00;17;17;02
Dr. Mona
Very important. And I. And that’s why I say, like, I think especially when it comes to these kind of things, it’s so important that if you feel like your pediatrician is not, you know, understanding. I want to really remind you that your pediatrician is your first point. And if they they’re not supposed to be experts at everything, right?

00;17;17;02 – 00;17;40;26
Dr. Mona
They’re supposed to be your home base that can refer you to specialists who specialize in these conditions. And it’s so important for me that you get that help, because if you are in your, you know, at home concern that your child may have OCD or whatever you’re concerned about, you should get that support earlier than later. To help you either make that diagnosis, get that child support that would be helpful for them.

00;17;41;01 – 00;17;52;10
Dr. Mona
Which leads me to my next question is what does that support look like for a child who has OCD? The treatment, the therapy? What can a family envision if they do get that diagnosis?

00;17;52;13 – 00;18;02;02
Michelle Massi
Yeah. It’s funny that you asked this question because I literally, sat in a support group last weekend to have and the talk of the support group was It Takes a Village.

00;18;02;04 – 00;18;02;22
Dr. Mona
And it was.

00;18;02;28 – 00;18;31;21
Michelle Massi
Answering exactly this question. Is it looks a little different for every family member, or in every family. Right. But generally speaking, there are specialists who specialize in anxiety and OCD, and I would ultimately tell a parent, like, the best thing you can ever do is find somebody who specializes in OCD, because if you get the wrong treatment or a treatment that is not the gold standard for OCD or not first line evidence based treatment, you can end up doing more harm than good.

00;18;31;21 – 00;18;58;15
Michelle Massi
I think, you know, adult patients who come in after years of the wrong kind of treatment. So making sure that you find an evidence based therapist and there’s plenty of us out there. And with the new rules about telehealth through like things like side hack and things like that, it’s very midst of so much easier to find a therapist that specializes in this, depending on the age of the child will determine, like how much family stuff is going on right?

00;18;58;15 – 00;19;16;00
Michelle Massi
If I’m working with a five year old, I’m much more likely to have do most of my sessions with the parents, and kind of do parent retraining and, less of my sessions with the kid. If the kid is like ten, 11, 14. I’m going to probably do most of my sessions with the kid and then bring the parents.

00;19;16;00 – 00;19;32;01
Michelle Massi
And, then we sometimes get family members where the kid doesn’t think there’s a problem. Right? And there if there’s a lot of family accommodation going on and the kid was like, I’m fine with this, I have no problem that my family just ropes in the garage and and takes a shower. Soon they get home. It’s no big deal to me.

00;19;32;03 – 00;19;56;19
Michelle Massi
Yeah. And the family is like, what are you talking about? There is treatment for family members. If your child does not want treatment or isn’t willing to. There’s specific support for family members that helps change the parents or the loved ones. Behavior, and focuses a lot on removing family accommodation. And so by just doing that, then the child’s behavior ends up changing.

00;19;56;22 – 00;20;18;14
Michelle Massi
There’s groups for parents, there’s groups for kids. There’s a ton of resources out there. I typically tell people to start with a the organization that I am faculty for, the international, OCD Foundation, because they have a ton of resources, not just like, you know, questions to ask your therapist or what medications if I’m going to take medication, should we be on?

00;20;18;21 – 00;20;39;26
Michelle Massi
But it’s also lists of therapists who specialize in OCD, specialize in ozone related disorders. And that’s a great place to start. They’ve got lists of support groups on there. If for some reason a child or person would need a higher level of care, they also list things there. So that’s where I start. There’s a ton of books on OCD.

00;20;39;28 – 00;21;03;08
Michelle Massi
I can’t even list them all because I will. Half of my friends have written books on OCD. I will see somebody out and feel horrible, but there’s a ton of books for both parents and kids. And so like, that’s where I start with, you know, sort of figuring out what the best treatment is. But exposure response prevention therapy for children with OCD is the best, the best treatment to start with.

00;21;03;14 – 00;21;18;05
Dr. Mona
And I’ll be linking the international OCD Foundation, on the show notes. And then you mentioned that it’s great to find, a therapist that specializes in OCD. Is there a database online that families can look online for, or is it just depend someone?

00;21;18;05 – 00;21;36;29
Michelle Massi
No, no. On that website they have a list of people. I’ve run I will tell you, I run a Facebook group for therapists that specialize in this. We have over 4000 members, so there’s plenty of therapists. If somebody can’t find somebody, you know, I’m happy for them to reach out to me. And I can send resources.

00;21;36;29 – 00;21;57;21
Michelle Massi
I know not every single one of those 4000, but I know a good deal of them. And there’s people all across the country and outside of, I don’t know how many, international we do followers you have, but there there are resources. It’s lost, unfortunately. But there are resources outside of the United States, so I can absolutely help there.

00;21;57;21 – 00;22;00;24
Michelle Massi
But international OCD Foundation is a great place to start.

00;22;01;01 – 00;22;22;21
Dr. Mona
I love this, and you know, we’re debuting this episode in honor of OCD Awareness Week month. I I’m I can’t remember, but, we yes yes, yes. And I you know, part of that for me is even, you know, even if you may not have OCD or have a child with OCD, the most important thing we can do is squash misconceptions, myths, things like that to be more understanding of those with OCD.

00;22;22;21 – 00;22;27;11
Dr. Mona
So what are some misconceptions surrounding OCD that you would love for people to know?

00;22;27;15 – 00;22;52;10
Michelle Massi
Yeah. I think the thing that brings nails on a chalkboard for me is, oh my God, I’m so okay. Right? More like, we see this a lot at stars, and things have gotten better over the years as, as we’ve called it out. But, you know, obsessive cat disorder or obsessive, you know, whatever disorder and people are just, you know, adding to different C’s, you know, and making jokes and making light of it.

00;22;52;10 – 00;23;13;15
Michelle Massi
And, you know, if somebody checks something or somebody watches something, the other thing I often will get is someone coming and going. My child has OCD, but that’s super messy, right? There’s not just one type of OCD because they think of what they see on TV, right? Which is like orderly or, you know, keeping things clean and uncontaminated.

00;23;13;15 – 00;23;40;04
Michelle Massi
But there’s so many subtypes of OCD. So knowing that there are a lot of different facets to what OCD looks like, but it all comes down to having an obsession and having a compulsion. So that’s the thing that brings everything together. It’s just what that obsession is, what the person is afraid of. Their core fear may change. And so knowing that, like, you know, when you throw around like, oh my God, I’m so OCD, you’re really diminishing.

00;23;40;10 – 00;24;10;05
Michelle Massi
You know, my client who spent six hours in the shower because they don’t feel like they did a good enough job or they’re still contaminated or it doesn’t feel right. It just really diminishes that feeling to them. Right? Like, you know, somebody who can’t keep a job or go to school when we’re talking about little kids, it’s such a different experience than, you know, like, oh, my God, I need, you know, my colors lined up just a certain way or, I like, you know, things a certain way in my purse or whatever it is.

00;24;10;07 – 00;24;37;16
Dr. Mona
Now, let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors. You’re. And you’re right. I think that also just goes in line with a lot of different things. Like everyone will people will say, oh, I’m my my ad is kicking in, but you don’t actually have ADHD or A.D.D., right? Like you’re just kind of distracted. But, it is very because as someone who’s married to someone who actually does have ADHD, I can tell you that his brain works differently than I than mine, and I don’t have ADHD.

00;24;37;19 – 00;24;55;26
Dr. Mona
And so it is a respectful thing. And I really appreciate you saying that because, people may say, oh, it’s just a joke, but that’s usually because you don’t want to change, but you can have change. You don’t need to make jokes like that. It’s it may be a joke to you, but it’s not a joke to, like you mentioned, the person who’s really struggling with true symptoms.

00;24;55;28 – 00;25;15;25
Dr. Mona
And I think that’s such a valid a valid and important point to, again, just provide more understanding and compassionate to those who actually, truly do have OCD and are trying to, you know, live meaningful lives and not let it consume them, which can be so hard, I imagine, if it’s not, you know, and managed effectively for, for these children and for these adults.

00;25;15;27 – 00;25;17;08
Michelle Massi
Right, right. Exactly.

00;25;17;08 – 00;25;25;03
Dr. Mona
Oh, thank you. So much for this. Is there anything else that you’d like to add about OCD in honor of OCD Awareness Week? Or anything that we missed.

00;25;25;06 – 00;25;49;26
Michelle Massi
So I just want to kind of, empower family members, parents and let them know that this is very treatable. Obviously, you had mentioned, you know, getting treatment as soon as possible. Look, don’t feel guilty if you’ve missed it originally. You know, often times will just be like, oh, my child has a quirk. You know, or they’re shy when they actually have social anxiety disorder, etc., but really know that it takes a village.

00;25;49;26 – 00;26;16;11
Michelle Massi
It takes everybody participating in treatment and takes everybody kind of rally and make changes in the, in the household. Right. For the guy, not for the family accommodation way. But it really it is a very treatable disorder. We talk about how there’s no cure for OCD because it’s a chronic disorder, but I have patients who’ve gone from, you know, incapable of functioning on their own to holding down jobs, getting married, having their own kids.

00;26;16;11 – 00;26;37;16
Michelle Massi
This is not, you know, where they’re going to be stuck living at home forever. Unless, of course, you want that to be. But, you know, it’s it really is something that somebody can live with that, you know, Mike Hyde just got married recently, actually, a year ago. And, you know, when they first came to me, like, or even before that, they were not functioning.

00;26;37;18 – 00;26;50;08
Michelle Massi
And, you know, to watch that, that change in their life, no, that that can be a possibility for you, whoever you live, in your family or if it’s you with OCD as well.

00;26;50;10 – 00;27;02;28
Dr. Mona
And do you feel like any, any of your parents that come in for children who are getting this diagnosis, do you feel like any of them have label phobia, like they’re worried about having the label of OCD for their child or not really.

00;27;03;00 – 00;27;22;12
Michelle Massi
I definitely see it more with autism than okay. I think because of the, just the stigma around. Yes, I was going to ask general. Yeah, the stigma around mental health is a big one. Right. And we see it a little bit in different cultures. Oftentimes, you know, there’s a genetic component to OCD and anxiety disorders, right?

00;27;22;12 – 00;27;44;09
Michelle Massi
So if we see a parent with it, we’re likely to see a kid with it. Not necessarily. So a lot of times the the kids I’m working with, the parents either have an anxiety disorder, OCD, tic disorder. So it’s, you know, they’re kind of aware our body, and they’re not so scared. Some of them don’t want to label it and call it what it is, because they don’t want their kid to get labeled at school.

00;27;44;12 – 00;28;03;13
Michelle Massi
And so we’ve worked around using the term like rituals, and we still address it, but they just, you know, don’t necessarily want me to call it OCD. I hesitate around that because obviously, the more forthcoming we can be that oftentimes someone could go, oh, I know, you know, it’s like if you have a headache and you’re like, what’s causing this headache?

00;28;03;13 – 00;28;28;12
Michelle Massi
Am I hydrated? Do I have cancer or do I, you know, did I not sleep well enough? You know, is it the the weather outside? It often helps us to know and like to, to correlate it to something. So the same thing with, with these. But I feel like the stigma around OCD isn’t quite as bad an especially, you know, between social media and TV shows that we had about the treatment of OCD.

00;28;28;14 – 00;28;52;26
Michelle Massi
Over the years, I think a lot of it more people are talking about it. And, you know, obviously with the internet blowing up and compared to like when I first started working in this arena and, and so I think because there’s more information out there, people aren’t as, kind of tied up in that. I think the harder part is when there’s the more taboo, subtypes of OCD that people get a little, like weirded out.

00;28;52;26 – 00;29;15;01
Michelle Massi
And I have kiddos who have, you know, sexual orientation, OCD subtype, which is a fear of like, do I am am I the right sexual orientation? Do I know in my sexual orientation to be certain, you know, did I harm somebody in an inappropriate way? Right. And so with some of the more taboo ones, I think there might be more stigma around that even in the younger age.

00;29;15;01 – 00;29;19;20
Michelle Massi
But we’re slowly starting to move away from that fear of the labeling.

00;29;19;22 – 00;29;42;05
Dr. Mona
Well, I’m so happy to hear that. And I hope that episodes like, like these and conversations like these will really help break that stigma that may be there for some families. And like you said, I do agree that it does exist more for autism because of the misinformation around autism and the stigma around autism, which still exists. And I mean, I’m online every day and I’m like, can we stop with this causes autism and this causes autism.

00;29;42;05 – 00;30;02;09
Dr. Mona
It’s like it exists so much. And I can, you know, I can understand why a family would feel like that. But to your point, having the diagnoses or if you want to say the label is so helpful so that we can get the help and the resources and know that this is what it is, let’s talk about, you know, terminology that may help that child in the school setting, like you mentioned, using the term rituals.

00;30;02;16 – 00;30;26;29
Dr. Mona
And my biggest dream for my platform is to be able to educate parents who may not have children who are autistic, OCD, ADHD, but how to raise their children to accept other children who are neurodiverse, who think differently, who look differently. And that is why this conversation was so important to me. Because even if I may not have an OCD child, who knows, I may.

00;30;27;00 – 00;30;43;17
Dr. Mona
I you know, he’s still five, but even if I don’t, even if I don’t, the least I can do is teach some compassion and some understanding that some of his friends at school may have rituals that they’re very into, and we don’t make fun of that. We support them and we’re kind, and we can make the world a better place by that.

00;30;43;17 – 00;31;02;28
Dr. Mona
So thank you so much, Michelle. Is there any other final uplifting message that you would like to share with our listeners? And this is for you know, I’m all about uplifting messages and keeping everyone feeling all loosey goosey and happy. Is there anything else that you would want to add? For all of our listeners today, in regards to, you know, a take home.

00;31;03;01 – 00;31;26;00
Michelle Massi
You know, one thing that just popped in my head is that 1 in 50 people has OCD, so it’s likely that somebody else in your child’s class also at work, great at their school, also has OCD. They are not alone and you are not alone. Like I said, there’s a village out there of help and support. If you open up and we start talking about things, you’ll learn more and more.

00;31;26;02 – 00;31;41;27
Michelle Massi
I know you’ve talked about your fertility journey journey, for example, online. And I think the more we talk about these things, the more we can see that there’s a village out there and we aren’t alone. And I think we flourish when we have our village to support us. So just lean on it. The village you have.

00;31;41;27 – 00;31;46;24
Michelle Massi
And if you don’t have one, find one, because there are plenty of other parents in your situation.

00;31;46;26 – 00;32;03;18
Dr. Mona
I love this message. What a great final, uplifting message. Thank you. We cannot do this alone. In every situation in parenting and where can people go to stay connected? So I know you gave the international OCD Foundation, but if they wanted to learn more about your practice, or your information as well, where can they go to find you?

00;32;03;21 – 00;32;18;28
Michelle Massi
Yes. So on Instagram I’m anxiety therapy LA. Although I’m not great about posting, but I will post for for OCD week. And then my website is anxiety therapy la.com and I can be found both places.

00;32;19;01 – 00;32;36;20
Dr. Mona
Wonderful. And I am going to be linking those resources and the Instagram handle and the website. And then also the international OCD Foundation resource, as well for all of you. And thanks again, Michelle, for coming back around to was even better, I would say, than round one. Yes. And I’m just so grateful.

00;32;36;20 – 00;32;37;27
Michelle Massi
That just makes perfect, right?

00;32;37;27 – 00;32;41;02
Dr. Mona
Yes, exactly, exactly. Thank you, Michelle, for joining me today.

00;32;41;05 – 00;32;43;04
Michelle Massi
Thank you for having me.

00;32;43;06 – 00;33;08;27
Dr. Mona
I love the insight that Michelle offered about OCD, and I often feel that it’s misunderstood. As we wrap up today’s conversation, I want to leave you with this. Parenting is full of uncertainties, and it’s completely natural to wonder if your child’s behaviors are typical or something more. I often got asked this question on my social media about early childhood behaviors, and if it was OCD and I knew that I had to have someone come on who was a specialist in this area.

00;33;09;00 – 00;33;28;08
Dr. Mona
Knowledge is power. And by educating ourselves about conditions like OCD, we’re not only supporting our children’s well-being, but also giving them the tools they need to thrive. If you love this episode, please share it on social media. Leave a review and comment on our post on our socials to share the love, and maybe we can keep in the top 20 parenting podcasts in the United States.

00;33;28;11 – 00;33;44;28
Dr. Mona
Next week, I’m coming at you with a solo episode on whining. Oh, the lovely sound of whining. And I will tackle scenarios from this community on how to tackle those difficult, whining moments with your kids. Don’t forget to subscribe so you don’t miss out. Chat next week and stay well.