Some children jump right into new situations, and some are slow to warm. But when is it shyness? And when is it something more? I welcome Dr. Melissa Giglio, a child clinical psychologist, author, and director of a private practice in Hong Kong.

 

We discuss:

• How are shy kids misunderstood
• The difference between shyness and anxiety
• Strategies to support our slow-to-warm or anxious children in new situations

 

Connect with Dr. Melissa Giglio on Instagram @braverygrows and visit bravemightyminds.com for more resources.

 

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on the PedsDocTalk Podcast Sponsors page of the website.

00;00;01;03 – 00;00;24;26
Dr. Melissa Giglio
So I think that’s the perfect description. So a little child will go to the new situation. They’ll go to the birthday party, they’ll enter the activity, but they’ll be hesitant to participate, to join it in the more reluctant. So unlike the normal personality that they lead that time out and they consistently show that they need that interaction. But the thing with little kids is they always warm up.

00;00;24;28 – 00;00;42;10
Dr. Melissa Giglio
So there’s a point where they are able to do it, and you see them kind of get into the flow, be able to join in and have fun with other kids. Anxious kids, on the other hand, will consistently be anxious. So they’re the kids who will really want to be joining in and will then the party will end.

00;00;42;11 – 00;00;59;03
Dr. Melissa Giglio
They never get to go around and play, or they never were able to see another kid, or they couldn’t speak up. If someone tried to take their toy and say, I was playing with that, or can I join in that game? And that’s really the biggest difference there is that they’re not able to be themselves in those situations.

00;00;59;05 – 00;01;30;13
Dr. Mona
Welcome back to the PedsDocTalk podcast. I am Doctor Mona and this is a top 50 parenting podcast in the United States to guide you on your parenting journey. And I get to chat with the most incredible people in the field of child health, development and parenting. And today’s guest is a returning guest. She is Doctor Melissa Giglio. She’s a child clinical psychologist, author, and director of a private practice in Hong Kong who’s devoted her career to providing evidence based therapies to help families function better.

00;01;30;20 – 00;01;44;20
Dr. Mona
She was already on the show talking about raising brave kids. How and how much should we be pushing our children? And today she’s returning to talk about if it’s shyness or anxiety. Thank you for coming back on the show.

00;01;44;22 – 00;01;46;24
Dr. Melissa Giglio
My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

00;01;46;27 – 00;01;56;19
Dr. Mona
And if for any reason people do not listen to our other episode about raising brave kids, if you can just introduce yourself and what brought you up to be a child psychologist?

00;01;56;22 – 00;02;20;15
Dr. Melissa Giglio
Oh yes, happy to do it. So I’ve always loved kids. I always knew it. And we doctor who worked with kids. And as I was going through my studies, I realized I really wanted to help families function better. And I really wanted to help kids grow up in various ways, whatever their challenge was. As I went through school, I realized that anxiety was one of my biggest areas that I really wanted to help kids with.

00;02;20;18 – 00;02;39;01
Dr. Melissa Giglio
Just because it’s something that’s so highly treatable and they’re just so cute and little and very responsive. So it’s really nice to have that sense of, wow, I’m really helping them blossom, and I get to be someone who supports that, because they can really improve in that area and it can help them for the rest of their life.

00;02;39;03 – 00;02;52;08
Dr. Melissa Giglio
So that’s kind of one of the main reasons child psychology has been something that’s just drew me to the field, and I’m just passionate about the work, and I’m all about just empowering kids to really help them lead happy, healthy, thriving lives.

00;02;52;11 – 00;03;07;15
Dr. Mona
Yeah. Which helps the whole family unit. It’s an amazing thing when we can get in touch with our mental health. So I am all about that. It’s just, if not more important than physical health. It might be a controversial stance, but I believe that our mind, our mind control so much of what we do physically to. So that’s awesome.

00;03;07;18 – 00;03;30;03
Dr. Mona
And, I’m excited to talk about this conversation because I’ve already discussed shyness on my podcast, as a solo episode, but I’m loving getting to chat with a child psychologist about it. Because, you know, shyness is something we see. A lot of parents feel bad about their child being shy, you know, and I think a lot of that’s because of social expectation or how do I get my kid to be more outgoing?

00;03;30;10 – 00;03;44;05
Dr. Mona
And then the other thing is, is it shyness or is it something more like an anxiety condition or a situation that may need intervention? So how would you describe a more using the term slow to warm child or shy child?

00;03;44;07 – 00;04;04;05
Dr. Melissa Giglio
So I think that’s the perfect description. So a little, child will go to the new situation. They’ll go to the birthday party, they’ll enter the activity, but they’ll be hesitant to participate, to join it in the more reluctant. So like the normal personality, they need that time to settle and they consistently show that they need that time for that.

00;04;04;07 – 00;04;25;16
Dr. Melissa Giglio
But the thing with little warm kids is they always warm up. So there’s a point where they are able to do it and you see them kind of get into the flow, be able to join in and have fun with other kids. Anxious kids, on the other hand, will consistently be anxious. So they’re the kids who will really want to be joining in and will then the party will end.

00;04;25;16 – 00;04;41;23
Dr. Melissa Giglio
They never get to a random play, or they never were able to speak to another kid, or they couldn’t speak up. If someone tried to take their toy and say, I was playing with that, or can I join in that game? And that’s really the biggest difference there is that they’re not able to be themselves in those situations.

00;04;41;23 – 00;05;08;28
Dr. Melissa Giglio
They are usually very different than they are at home when they’re in different contexts. And, you know, when we see that difference in our kids, that discrepancy in their behavior, that’s when we can really say, this feels like too much anxiety. This feels like this is more than just, oh, they’re shy. And the term shy just kind of makes me always cringe because, yeah, throw around that statement so much and it can be really calming to kids because it becomes an identifier to them.

00;05;09;01 – 00;05;25;18
Dr. Melissa Giglio
Yeah. And they might be just slow to warm. They just need their time as opposed to being shy like, oh, don’t be shy. Oh it’s okay. You’re just shy. And they hear it, they hear it, and then they internalize it, and then it starts to become almost their excuse for why they’re not doing things is, oh, I’m just shy.

00;05;25;20 – 00;05;28;24
Dr. Melissa Giglio
And you’ve already limited them before they even have a chance.

00;05;28;26 – 00;05;44;28
Dr. Mona
Oh, it’s like labels in general. I understand to some degree. In a medical perspective, labels can be helpful to get resources like if, you know, for other reasons. But it’s like picky eating, like, I hate when people say, oh, my kid’s so picky because it’s like a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? They the one time that they’re shy and then they’re shy again.

00;05;44;28 – 00;06;07;16
Dr. Mona
Oh, look at her being shy again. And I am married to a shy husband. Meaning when he was a child, he was very shy. And he had parents who didn’t foster that shyness and really shamed him for being shy. Why aren’t you talking? Why don’t you go to this person, say hi to this person, and even to this day in his 40s, it causes him anxiety.

00;06;07;16 – 00;06;28;28
Dr. Mona
Like he thinks about that childhood understanding. And we’re trying to raise our children very differently. And so I do believe that it’s important that we squash that terminology and understand I like the slow to warm terminology, because it is ownership over the fact that they just need that time. How are shy children or their situations that they’re in misunderstood that you seen.

00;06;29;00 – 00;06;52;14
Dr. Melissa Giglio
So they’re misunderstood because they’re already labeled before they’ve even had a chance to really show what they can do. And then when they continue to show that kind of behavior in similar situations, that becomes kind of how everyone knows them. And then it just kind of to enforce that way. And, you know, again, it’s almost like name calling culture where like the other kids will hear it or they’re just shy or they’re they’re not going to talk to you.

00;06;52;16 – 00;07;10;00
Dr. Melissa Giglio
And then again, they just feel like they’re kind of pigeonholed into this position. So if they behave differently, then they start to be worried about what are people going to say? What if people don’t notice them doing this? Well, they make a big deal, and you’re really kind of creating a bigger problem than necessary, as opposed to it’s okay to take your time.

00;07;10;00 – 00;07;31;28
Dr. Melissa Giglio
You can join us whenever you’re ready, which gives that entry. It gives that space. And, you know, I always wonder about those little, kids. How are they prepared for the situation? Like if you have a hard time warming up in situations, have you supported them by doing things like getting there early, by talking about what they can expect?

00;07;31;28 – 00;07;53;06
Dr. Melissa Giglio
Somewhat. Not too many details, but a little bit of that preview and front loading of what to expect, where you’re going to be, how much fun it’s going to be to see your friends kind of helping them get excited so they can really overcome that initial hesitation and hopefully warm up faster. And the more they go into those situations, and the more you practice with them and rehearse with them.

00;07;53;06 – 00;08;12;15
Dr. Melissa Giglio
How to say happy birthday when they walk in, they’re going to get better at it, and then they’re going to have an easier time every time they do it, as opposed to that shame of why are you doing this for? But play with your friends. Why are you standing by to shame, shame, shame and making them feel like there’s something wrong with them for not being ready yet?

00;08;12;17 – 00;08;29;06
Dr. Mona
Now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors and kind of going in line with the other conversation that we had about raising brave kids. We’re trying to foster this growth mentality, and if we’re kind of squashing them and saying, why not? Why not? It can be very forceful and add to more anxiety like that. Social anxiety.

00;08;29;09 – 00;08;48;03
Dr. Mona
I don’t even want to go here because every time I go here, I’m being forced, like I’m giving my husband’s example to do things that don’t make me comfortable and don’t have a caregiver who’s my safe space to, like, go to, you know, they’re they’re telling me, run, run, run. I remember, you know, I remember going to a birthday party, and I hate doing this, but it’s I don’t know if you do this as a psychologist, but I’m always, like, observing.

00;08;48;03 – 00;09;05;17
Dr. Mona
I’m never judging, but I’m just observing human interactions and parental interactions just for my understanding and to be able to help others. Right. And there was a situation where, like a mom, was with her daughter, and then the husband was getting very irritated that the daughter was just holding on to the mom’s leg. And he’s like, she needs to go play with the other kids.

00;09;05;17 – 00;09;20;23
Dr. Mona
And the mom was just stroking her back and was like, it’s okay. She’ll take her time. And then lo and behold, in like 15 minutes, that child was completely fine. Running around like totally okay in that situation. So needed the time, needed that person to say.

00;09;20;23 – 00;09;22;01
Dr. Melissa Giglio
It’s okay, you need your.

00;09;22;01 – 00;09;31;05
Dr. Mona
Time. I’m not going anywhere. And I think that’s wonderful. What would be other strategies to support that slow to warm kid? As a parent or caregiver.

00;09;31;07 – 00;09;49;13
Dr. Melissa Giglio
I think being comfortable with and understanding your discomfort with your kid taking that time, I think it’s a big one like that. Dads absolutely handful of like they’re the only one who’s out there. Why are they doing this? Like, you know, harassing for you? Is this something you struggled with and that, you know, you’re identifying too much and you don’t want your kid to have that struggle?

00;09;49;20 – 00;10;07;22
Dr. Melissa Giglio
Like, whatever it is, that’s not about your kid, it’s about you. So just kind of, again, checking in with yourself a little bit about what’s wrong with this. Like, it’s not unusual for a young kid to need time. Like that’s part of them being observant. That’s part of them checking out the lay of the land and figuring out how to approach.

00;10;07;24 – 00;10;29;23
Dr. Melissa Giglio
And they might need some of that support, saying, I’ll walk over with you to go see this. And they might still be reluctant, but the more that you just start making them feel comfortable by talking about what’s around you, talking about what you’re noticing, and talking about how they’re moving closer to other people. You’re again, helping them enter this situation in a really, you know, nice way.

00;10;29;23 – 00;10;47;22
Dr. Melissa Giglio
That’s not directing them at that, commanding them. It’s even making them answer, what’s wrong? Why don’t you feel comfortable? You know, kiddo going to come up with an excuse for you if you continue to ask them that question? So a lot of times when they’re that little, they don’t know. They just they’re just not feeling safe. They’re feeling a little scared.

00;10;47;22 – 00;11;04;19
Dr. Melissa Giglio
They’re feeling intimidated. They might be feeling all of those things, but they’re not sure. So what we want to do is just give them that time to kind of grow that bravery, to be like, Maybe I’ll go over there, maybe I can grab this toy and play with it a little bit. Maybe I can go out with a friend if they come over and ask me to play.

00;11;04;24 – 00;11;09;06
Dr. Melissa Giglio
You know, it kind of gives them that time in that space and that opportunity to do it.

00;11;09;08 – 00;11;22;26
Dr. Mona
And when is it more than just this, you know, very normal temperament, personality that we see. We’re talking about the shyness or slow to warm. And when is it start to become more of an anxiety condition, like we mentioned in the title of the episode?

00;11;22;28 – 00;11;42;16
Dr. Melissa Giglio
Yeah, I think is when it’s really very different from their typical functioning. So I specialize in a particular type of anxiety disorder where kids are usually very bossy, very talkative at home. Like they kind of rule the roost and they’ll their super confident and then they get into school where they get into social situations and they stop talking altogether.

00;11;42;24 – 00;12;00;17
Dr. Melissa Giglio
And, you know, again, the sort of when kids, kids who are transitioning to a new school year, they’ll be fine within a month, they’ll be more like their normal self. There’s that honeymoon where everyone’s kind of feeling it out for a kid with selective mutism will not speak for an entire year. They will not talk to another kid.

00;12;00;21 – 00;12;19;27
Dr. Melissa Giglio
They won’t answer questions when they’re being spoken to. Sometimes they won’t eat or drink. That is insight. The problem is, is, you know, a lot of times our kid, we don’t find out about this until it’s happened for a few months because, you know, your kid at home, you see them when they’re comfortable. You don’t get to see them when they’re in preschool or in school all day.

00;12;20;04 – 00;12;47;08
Dr. Melissa Giglio
And a lot of times teachers are kind of giving them space, so they’ll let it go for a while. And then the back to the author. Is this their first language or you ask and and you’re like, they talk all the time. And that’s just an indicator to us that this is more than just they’re shy, when it’s constantly happening, it’s anytime someone approaches them in public or when a waiter comes to the table, you see their their behavior just kind of change.

00;12;47;11 – 00;13;09;15
Dr. Melissa Giglio
In those situations. They might look like a deer in headlights and it’s not crying. Kind of. It’s more like tense in flight affects. And that’s really the indicator that, you know, it’s more than just them being reserved or slower to warm. This is something that’s really starting to impact who they are as an individual when they’re comfortable and when they’re not.

00;13;09;17 – 00;13;19;12
Dr. Mona
And if the parent is seeing those signs, the best option obviously would be getting in line with a therapist or, you know, really speaking to their pediatrician to direct them to the right resources.

00;13;19;15 – 00;13;39;00
Dr. Melissa Giglio
Absolutely. And so for an anxiety disorder, make sure you’re going to a child’s specialist who specializes in anxiety to make sure they’re getting the right treatment, think you want them to be doing evidence based treatment. You want it to be effective. I think there’s a lot of concerns about, you know, therapist and, you know, oh, I should definitely take them to play therapy for everything.

00;13;39;03 – 00;14;05;12
Dr. Melissa Giglio
And really, with kids, all therapy has play because they’re kids. It’s it’s supposed to be positive and fun and engaging because we do work. But it has to be in the context of making them feel confident. And that typically is in the context of playing games and interacting with them with all of our strategies woven in. And the other thing is, therapy should always include a parent component because you’re with your kid all the time.

00;14;05;14 – 00;14;22;03
Dr. Melissa Giglio
So you are one of the most important agents of change, so you need to be involved in the process. You should be learning skills for how you can be working and supporting this at home. You know this is not you. Drop your four year old off in the therapist room and you know, hey, work some magic. This is, yeah.

00;14;22;06 – 00;14;30;04
Dr. Melissa Giglio
So it’s a supportive group that together, we’re there to really help build up this area. That’s really tricky for them.

00;14;30;07 – 00;14;50;22
Dr. Mona
Oh, and I would say that 90% of the work is happening. You get the skills from therapy sessions, but 90% of it is coming with what we do because we’re with the kids more than the therapist. And this goes to all therapy, and I love that you brought that up because I think even my families who go to speech therapy or physical therapy and I’m like, you’re going to go, but you’re going to learn tips that you have to do at home, like with your child.

00;14;50;22 – 00;15;14;16
Dr. Mona
Or I know time is not always possible, like with playtime and all that, but you’re going to have to incorporate this into your days. And the way you speak to your child is so important. I, like you said, not only with the bravery conversation we’ve already had, but with this. Right. Are there certain terms that you feel like we can use that might empower them more when they’re feeling a little nervous in situations, or more cautious?

00;15;14;18 – 00;15;33;16
Dr. Melissa Giglio
So I, I’m a big believer I’m from the camp of we talk about the elephant in the room. So if they’re having trouble with being brave we say that was really brave trying that there was really great, brave talking. That was really great love. Brave trying something new or playing with someone. So we really talk about that. They’re doing something hard and that is brave.

00;15;33;22 – 00;15;50;07
Dr. Melissa Giglio
And that’s how they’re building their brave muscles. So that’s how we name it for them, so that they hear it constantly, that they’re being brave. And we want to be specific about what exactly they’re doing that just you’re so brave. But you were really brave for telling me what you wanted in front of the leader, or for talking to the person at Starbucks.

00;15;50;09 – 00;16;10;28
Dr. Melissa Giglio
These are all good things that we want to first notice, but we really want to call out to them and give them that affirmation of that. That was really great that you did that, that you’re doing different things, that you’re pushing yourself. So I think that’s one of the biggest ones. And then just to really be mindful of all the little baby steps of progress that they make, while they’re trying to be brave.

00;16;10;28 – 00;16;30;24
Dr. Melissa Giglio
So we’re noticing those positive changes rather than just being so worried about, you know, they’re not doing this yet. Seeing like, no, these are all steps towards doing that. And it takes time. Like we need to really meet kids where they are, especially, you know, after Covid, after being home. They’re like, everyone’s life has kind of been turned upside down.

00;16;30;26 – 00;16;59;11
Dr. Melissa Giglio
They’re on their own path, and we need to give them that space to develop. With this gentle encouragement, I say I’m like, it’s a constant pushing, but gently at a pace that they can tolerate. We’re helping them get comfortable being uncomfortable slowly. So yeah, and I ask for parents, you know, it’s really being patient with it. And also being able to speak up for your kid when someone says, don’t be shy or all that’s you could say they’re not shy, they’re just not ready yet.

00;16;59;14 – 00;17;17;14
Dr. Melissa Giglio
And again, that gives that permission in that space to say that to another don’t circuit like, yeah, you’re right, I’m not shy. I just need my time and that will help them be brave. But when you constantly are hearing negative feedback, it makes you feel negative, like it makes you.

00;17;17;16 – 00;17;34;10
Dr. Mona
Oh, absolutely. I agree with that on all standpoints in parenting. And I’m a big believer in commenting in front of the child in a positive way. Not like yelling like my. The grandparents tend to be offenders of a lot of things. And so they’ll say something and, you know, I will look at them and I won’t say, mom, don’t say that.

00;17;34;10 – 00;17;53;28
Dr. Mona
I’ll say, Ryan, it’s okay. You took a little bit of time. You know, it’s like just making sure he understands that even though grandma was ridiculing him for being shy. Then it’s okay. I’m your mom, and I believe that you are doing wonderfully. So all of these are just wonderful tips. And where can people find you to stay more connected with all of your resources and all of your amazing advice that you give?

00;17;54;00 – 00;18;13;25
Dr. Melissa Giglio
So our website is brave, mighty minds, dot com. And on there we have webinars. We’re creating more resources. We’re doing, parent trainings, teacher trainings. We’re really trying to just educate as many people also love it. So that needs people to know what to do. They don’t just have to go to a specialist to be able to get the support they need.

00;18;13;29 – 00;18;35;22
Dr. Melissa Giglio
Because again, like you said, we want to train the people who are with the kids the most. This isn’t like a secret we have to hold. This is really about spreading it out so that kids can get better. It’s about the kids and how we can upskill everybody to support these kids. So these, you know, this anxiety, these difficulties don’t have to be something that impacts them for the rest of their life, because often it just takes time.

00;18;35;22 – 00;18;49;10
Dr. Melissa Giglio
It takes patience. It takes some tweaking of skills and awareness and advocating. And we see progress happening and we’re good at that. We know how to do it. We just need to be better, training more people to do it and sharing that information out.

00;18;49;13 – 00;19;07;23
Dr. Mona
Thank you for what you do and your platform. It was amazing to connect with you. I know we’ve done two episodes, like I said, for everyone listening, we talked about bravery earlier in 2024, and now we’re talking about shyness, versus anxiety. And I think it’s a really important, nuanced discussion to make sure that you’re providing the best resources for your child.

00;19;07;25 – 00;19;10;09
Dr. Mona
And thank you, Doctor Melissa, for joining me today.

00;19;10;12 – 00;19;12;16
Dr. Melissa Giglio
Thank you for having me. It’s been a pleasure.

00;19;12;18 – 00;19;27;04
Dr. Mona
Absolute pleasure. And for everyone listening. As always, make sure you leave those reviews and share this podcast on your stories. Tag me as well. This is how the podcast continues to grow and be a top 50 parenting podcast in the United States, and I cannot wait to chat next time.