Is praising our children okay? Will they end up seeking a life of external validation? On this episode, I welcome Dr Jenicka Engler, developmental neuropsychologist, clinical scientist, and mom to discuss:

If praise is really all bad?
How to effectively use praise
What the research tells us about praise

Find Dr. Jenicka on Instagram @drjenicka

Transcript

00;00;01;02 – 00;00;25;23

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Parents are coming to us paralyzed with fear, almost because they are scrutinizing every little thing they are saying to their kids and doing with their kids, and fearing that if they do or say the wrong thing, it’s going to cause a quote unquote trauma response or they’re going to traumatize their kids. Or in the case of preys, they’re going to ruin their child’s intrinsic motivation or reduce their achievement in some way.

00;00;25;23 – 00;00;33;18

Dr. Jenicka Engler

And I mean, there’s just such as you mentioned, it’s really a lack of nuance and a grossness and interpretation of the research.

00;00;33;20 – 00;00;55;17

Dr. Mona

Welcome back to the PedsDocTalk podcast. This show’s success is largely due to you and the way you share the podcast with others and leave reviews. So thank you so much for tuning in each and every week. I’m just so grateful to have the most amazing guests to guide you in your parenting journey. Topics about all things parenting, child health, child development, and parental health and mental health.

00;00;55;25 – 00;01;14;25

Dr. Mona

Today’s guest is a repeat guest. She was on my show talking about rewards systems and if they’re harmful in children, they’re not. And her name is Doctor Jenicka Engler. She is a developmental neuropsychologist, clinical scientist, and mom and my social media friend. Thank you so much for joining me today, Jenicka.

00;01;14;27 – 00;01;17;01

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Thank you for having me. Always a pleasure.

00;01;17;05 – 00;01;40;29

Dr. Mona

Always a pleasure. So obviously we spoke on my show when we talked about reward systems, particularly with potty training, which both you and I did use reward systems with potty training our children. But I’m so happy that we can connect today to talk about praise. And is it ruining our children? Because there is a lot of misinformation, or maybe lack of nuance out there on social media, especially about praise?

00;01;40;29 – 00;01;50;19

Dr. Mona

And so before we get into this topic, tell everyone who may not be familiar with who you are, more about yourself and what you do as a developmental neuropsychologist.

00;01;50;22 – 00;02;20;15

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Yes. So I am a licensed psychologist with a subspecialty in developmental neuropsychology, meaning I have additional training and expertise in the assessment of child development, neurodevelopmental disorders, as well as an evidence based treatment for various types of pediatric and adult therapies. And more recently, I’ve actually been doing primarily research work, as I have, you know, in balancing motherhood.

00;02;20;15 – 00;02;45;16

Dr. Jenicka Engler

So I get to sort of have a nice purview of, you know, all the clinical aspects of things as well as the research side of things as well. So I sort of get this really unique perspective that I think bodes well when there’s just so much misinformation out there now on social media, it’s really hard to weed through, even as a pediatric expert, sometimes it’s really difficult to weed through what actually is legit.

00;02;45;18 – 00;02;58;28

Dr. Mona

Well, also, I mean, speaking both on social media, doing very similar things, trying to obviously make sure that people understand nuance, which is so not common on a lot of the large social media accounts, especially in the parenting space. Right. Nuance is like cut a loss.

00;02;58;28 – 00;03;03;19

Dr. Jenicka Engler

It’s like you do nothing. So it’s exactly emotional. And I think the.

00;03;03;19 – 00;03;25;27

Dr. Mona

Main ground, yeah, middle ground never sells. Like I totally get that. But it’s so frustrating. And also just try not to scare parents, but also trying to pick up the pieces. I mean, as a neuropsychologist, and especially for me as a pediatrician, I get so much of that right, like, hey, I read on this big account, or I read on online that I can’t tell my child that they make me feel bad like that, I feel sad, I mean, that’s a whole other conversation.

00;03;25;27 – 00;03;41;24

Dr. Mona

But I’m like, you know, like there’s nuance there. Like, we could talk about that too. But it’s like, this is so important that we’re chatting about this because I praise my son. I have no worry in praising my child. When I have my second child, I’ll do the same. But yes, there’s a balance there on what you’re basing them, how you’re praising them.

00;03;42;01 – 00;03;47;16

Dr. Mona

But I’m sure you’re seeing a lot of this. What are you seeing? What is the. Yeah. The commentary that you’re hearing.

00;03;47;16 – 00;04;11;07

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Yeah. You’re hitting the nail on the head. That’s exactly what myself and all of my child psychologist colleagues are seeing right now is that parents are coming to us paralyzed with fear, almost because they are scrutinizing every little thing they are saying to their kids and doing with their kids, and fearing that if they do or say the wrong thing, it’s going to cause a quote unquote trauma response, or they’re going to traumatize their kids.

00;04;11;13 – 00;04;35;22

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Or in the case of praise, they’re going to ruin their child’s intrinsic motivation or reduce their achievement in some way. And I mean, there’s just such as you mentioned, it’s really a lack of nuance and a gross misinterpretation of the research on a lot of these topics in many cases, and sometimes the loudest voices in the room and those with the most followers get the most sort of traction on these.

00;04;35;22 – 00;04;55;00

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Yeah, it’s very hard to change the narrative because once it’s out there, you know, it’s shared and you posted, and then it becomes as if it’s, you know, legitimate because you’ve seen it so much. There’s exposure effects. So the more you see misinformation, the more likely you are. Studies show to actually believe it as truth in as fact, regardless of if it’s legitimate or not.

00;04;55;00 – 00;05;03;05

Dr. Jenicka Engler

So just by seeing that same message over and over again all over your feed, it can actually make you believe it, regardless of how veritable that is.

00;05;03;08 – 00;05;24;11

Dr. Mona

Oh, because this is just so concerning to me. Because we know that parenting is so hard as it is. So when you’re so worried about tiptoeing, like I agree that there are things that we should be doing to foster a child’s development, emotional development, all of that. But when you start to see all of this, sort of, you can’t do this and don’t do this and you’re going to not have internal validation and it’s all going to be external validation.

00;05;24;11 – 00;05;35;21

Dr. Mona

All this stuff that we’ll talk about, it can become so overwhelming. Like you just feel like you’re walking on eggshells with your own child, right? Like you’re feeling like you said, I can’t say that. Like, oh my gosh, I just told my kid that they did a great job.

00;05;35;23 – 00;05;58;10

Dr. Jenicka Engler

If you can’t be fully present with your child because you are internally preoccupied with your own worries and concerns and overly anxious about messing it up, because apparently now every little thing you say can mess up your kid according to some folks, like you’re going to be less present. It’s going to impact things like potentially even attachment if you are not able to be there and be fully present and delight in your child.

00;05;58;10 – 00;06;15;13

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Those are all things that promote secure attachment. So when we take away from that, because we’re so worried about screwing it up in every little decision day to day to day, I mean, it just adds up. It’s unattainable. I mean, yeah, you need some sort of balance in it. And that’s, I think, what’s really missing from that conversation.

00;06;15;13 – 00;06;22;27

Dr. Jenicka Engler

So I’m excited for us to dive in and talk about what the research says on praise, because I think that’s going to be pretty illuminating.

00;06;22;29 – 00;06;42;21

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And before we get to that, because that is going to be the majority of that conversation that we’re having today. Tell the listeners again what we just mentioned about what a lot of modern, I’m going to say, modern social media about parenting philosophies when they talk about worry about praise, are saying that, you know, don’t praise. And the whole thing that you mentioned about internal validation, what is it that you are hearing exactly?

00;06;42;21 – 00;06;45;03

Dr. Mona

And explaining that terminology for anyone who’s not familiar?

00;06;45;03 – 00;07;08;29

Dr. Jenicka Engler

So you know a little bit about sort of the history, because this is a case where actually history is important. So back in the 1970s and 80s, there was research that found that rewards and praise can decrease intrinsic motivation, which is also known as like the over justification effect. However, later studies that were done to sort of look at all the nuances to this.

00;07;09;02 – 00;07;29;08

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Yeah, that this effect only holds for activities that were inherently enjoyed. Right. So if it’s something that the child already enjoyed and you’re praising them, yes, that can potentially decrease their intrinsic motivation. But why would you be praising them for something they already enjoy doing and are having fun doing right? It’s just not something that typically happens a lot in day to day parenting practice, right?

00;07;29;10 – 00;07;50;09

Dr. Jenicka Engler

That’s not how most parents will actually end up using praise. They usually use praise for things that are difficult for them or things that they’re just learning and, you know, are still new. Or for example, things that how we’re very like high interest. So again, something that the child is super interested in or if that child’s motivation to do that activity was initially high.

00;07;50;10 – 00;08;19;06

Dr. Jenicka Engler

So let’s say they were like super motivated to do something and they would essentially be doing it for like anyways, if you praise them in progress and you praise them, really. So again, a lot of these sort of nuances, they don’t really add up with how praise is used in day to day parenting situations. Now, that sort of basic, research was then incorporated into sort of Montessori, methods, and they sort of popularized that.

00;08;19;09 – 00;08;45;20

Dr. Jenicka Engler

You can’t say good job. And, you know, all of these things. And then more recently, the big sort of yeah, I don’t even want to call him the key opinion leader, because I’ll get into that. But I’ll see. Koen had actually written a book on this topic, which is punished by rewards, essentially. And so in this he makes the case against using any sorts of rewards, whether that’s praise or tangible rewards.

00;08;45;20 – 00;09;24;06

Dr. Jenicka Engler

And, you know, his argument is that it decreases intrinsic motivation. It reduces achievement. And he is really actually not the best, even though he has he’s written prolifically about topics and education and topics in parenting. I actually researched him for this podcast. So make sure I’m sort of prepared and I’m quoting the right things because I haven’t done any post Sun Press, I haven’t done any literature reviews lately, but I was looking at his website and his biography because I’m trying to figure out what are his credentials like, what makes him an expert and like, how is he even qualified to talk about this?

00;09;24;07 – 00;09;46;15

Dr. Jenicka Engler

That sort of stuff is pretty important. Yeah, you’re going to be a key opinion leader on something. And I mean, apparently he did a one year master in social science at the University of Chicago, and he’s never actually done any real, like, research work. So in all of these articles, like tons of articles, but he doesn’t have any original research.

00;09;46;15 – 00;10;07;21

Dr. Jenicka Engler

It’s all opinion pieces, essentially. And he sort of will quote other people’s research, but he tends to cherry pick things and science in a way that doesn’t make a lot of sense. So I was actually super surprised by that because I figured he was like a child psychologist or, you know, something, and, you know, he has tons and tons of things that he’s written, but they’re mostly opinion pieces.

00;10;07;23 – 00;10;32;12

Dr. Jenicka Engler

And so when the research has looked at most of his theories about why he thinks rewards and praise are bad, we’ve actually now had decades of randomized controlled trials, which are the highest quality research because it can actually prove causation. And so most of his theories have been disproven over the decades, time and again. Right. Like we have multiple studies that show this, but yet he is still very popular.

00;10;32;14 – 00;10;52;15

Dr. Jenicka Engler

And so for him in particular, like he likes to cite this study from the University of Toronto, where young kids who were frequently praised for displays of generosity tended to be slightly, slightly less generous and an everyday basis than other children were. So every time they heard good sharing. I’m so proud of you for helping. They became a little less interested in sharing or helping.

00;10;52;17 – 00;11;15;29

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Now, the funny part is this I’m looking at that and I’m like, oh, well, let’s think about this. Like, how do we generalize? Oh, because we see an issue with kids sharing and something that’s really hard for most kids giving something away to somebody else. Right. We’re going to generalize that to praise about everything and say that’s bad because of that one scenario like I have look at that and I say, well, I think there’s probably some confounding variables there.

00;11;15;29 – 00;11;41;09

Dr. Jenicka Engler

And especially if you’re using the same phrase over time, it can lose its potency and effect as a reinforcer, because if you were saying the same sort of boilerplate praise, like great job. But like it’s also less sort of intense over time, I find as well, like you’re not as animated or excited over time. So there are all these confounding sort of variables here with some of the research that he does say.

00;11;41;10 – 00;11;56;25

Dr. Jenicka Engler

And then I’m looking at some of his other stuff and I’m like, wow, okay, I have no idea what actually qualifies you to be an expert in this. And, aside from the fact that you’ve published a bunch of articles and books and you about how you know all about this. So I was actually very surprised by that.

00;11;56;25 – 00;12;07;19

Dr. Jenicka Engler

So those are the really big drivers behind a lot of this. So it’s really the sort of recent Montessori movement as well as sort of these healthy cone disciples.

00;12;07;21 – 00;12;23;05

Dr. Mona

And so with this like what would be then going into the research that we do now, maybe the research that you have known before all of this that you mentioned that how can praise be beneficial? And is there a better way to praise versus not?

00;12;23;08 – 00;12;42;18

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Absolutely. So I think the first thing that I want to say is balance, right? You don’t want to go overboard with this. There should not be a good job for like every single thing they’re doing because then it loses its effectiveness, right? Yeah. So you want to be sort of judicious about how and why you’re praising your child.

00;12;42;20 – 00;13;06;00

Dr. Jenicka Engler

And there’s different quality to the type of praises. So we know that telling your kid, oh, you’re so smart. Things that are about like their personal attributes, like you’re so pretty, you’re so this those are actually things that can take away. They’re not necessarily a good thing because they can become sort of self-fulfilling prophecies. And you stop trying as much as you think you’re smart, you’re going to do like there, isn’t it?

00;13;06;00 – 00;13;39;13

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Right? It’s not much research based on that. So what you typically want to be doing is you want to be praising more of the process. Right? So you’re working really hard on that. You are, taking your time to think about different ways of doing that and then trying it. And look, you figured it out. But the funny thing is, is that a lot of people really vilify sort of good job, but they’re like, okay, but you can say you did it because that’s not quite so evaluative, right?

00;13;39;13 – 00;13;53;17

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Because good job implies that if you didn’t do a good job, maybe you did a bad job. And I’m like, but that’s the same thing as saying you did it. Because if you didn’t do it, then you didn’t do it. Like, I look at this and I’m like, oh gosh, I’m like, that doesn’t pass the sniff test for me, right?

00;13;53;17 – 00;14;01;05

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Like that just doesn’t logically make sense. So I think most people are going to at some point say good job. Just out is sort of automaticity.

00;14;01;07 – 00;14;02;14

Dr. Mona

It feels natural, right?

00;14;02;15 – 00;14;26;17

Dr. Jenicka Engler

It feels natural. Exactly. So there’s like better ways to use praise. And what I will say is that the research shows that you want to reward your child for tasks that are not naturally interesting or fun to them. So, things like toileting, cleaning up their toys, medicine and it’s also really good as a reward system for learning new tasks.

00;14;26;17 – 00;14;47;05

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Right? Because it gets the ball rolling. Yeah. Then you can thin the quote unquote what we say behaviorally is like the schedule of reinforcement. Right? So the biggest sort of argument that a lot of these anti praise folks will make was well then they’re gonna always need the praise in order to do that. If they don’t do it they’re going to stop doing that.

00;14;47;07 – 00;15;09;21

Dr. Jenicka Engler

And I mean folks from our generation, almost every single one of us were praised for potty training. Right? Like there’s nobody who has above a certain age, like I would say 20 at this point, who was not praised for potty training. And are we all still hopefully using the potty? Yeah, I think we are. And we’re not getting praise for it anymore, right?

00;15;09;23 – 00;15;17;28

Dr. Mona

Are we looking for external validation? No. Like I turned to my husband every time I poop and say, hey, like you want to congratulate me? No, it fades out. You said.

00;15;18;01 – 00;15;35;25

Dr. Jenicka Engler

That’s exactly so. And you know it doesn’t pass the common sense test, right? And it also is not supported by the research either. So I mean, this is the other thing about research is that it’s not hard to find a study somewhere that’s going to, you know, yay or nay like reminds me of like the wine is good for your heart sort of research.

00;15;35;25 – 00;15;59;16

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Right. For every study that says there’s evidence that red wine is good for your heart, and there’s another study saying, no, it’s really not necessarily that good. And so we’re at the point where the results are so mixed we don’t know. But that’s not the case with the praise research. We know that for most circumstances, praise is good and praise helpful when used not in an overboard, sort of well-balanced manner.

00;15;59;18 – 00;16;19;25

Dr. Jenicka Engler

But what happens is that because there are these very sort of nuanced, very sort of why would you be praising the many great situations that people are then grasping on and saying, yeah, this is bad. It does all these things that are going to, you know, mess up your kid. And it’s like, that’s not really how you use praise in real life, in parenting.

00;16;19;25 – 00;16;38;27

Dr. Jenicka Engler

And B, you’re completely ignoring, you know, the decades of high quality research we now have on this, which equates to hundreds of studies, meta analyzes, which are the most sort of robust ones I always tend to find. It’s fine. So, you know, I think that’s also the lack of understanding by some folks in terms of how to interpret the research.

00;16;39;00 – 00;16;41;09

Dr. Jenicka Engler

That’s really sort of making this problem worse.

00;16;41;14 – 00;16;57;19

Dr. Mona

Well, I love how you just kind of talked about when to use it, right? Things that are not naturally fun for them, learning new tasks, getting the ball rolling, and also really talking about not praising things like characteristics like, or how they look, or you know, that they’re pretty or cute or handsome at the time. And.

00;16;57;19 – 00;16;58;05

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Also.

00;16;58;08 – 00;17;22;21

Dr. Mona

The smartness. Yeah. Like I agree with that. You know, like you said, it’s just seems so natural to want to praise that I’m using the smartness as an example. Right? Like, wow, you’re so smart. And I think you said it already. But like, if a parent feels inclined to do that, like if you’re feeling like for some reason you want to comment on how they figure something out, remember what Doctor Jenica said and comment on the process like, rather than saying you’re so smart, done.

00;17;22;27 – 00;17;26;10

Dr. Mona

You’re so smart. You figured out how to do that and you didn’t know how to do that before.

00;17;26;13 – 00;17;29;12

Dr. Jenicka Engler

You can actually turn it like that happens all the time.

00;17;29;12 – 00;17;31;02

Dr. Mona

What happens? That’s true. Yeah.

00;17;31;06 – 00;17;48;11

Dr. Jenicka Engler

So ingrained from how we were brought up, because that’s how we were praised quite often for our attributes. Yeah, I don’t know. It’s not the optimal way. But the nice thing is, is that if you find yourself starting with that, you can. Oh, that. That dress is so beautiful. Oh, it must be great for twirling or. Yes.

00;17;48;13 – 00;18;09;19

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Yeah. Look at how hard you work to figure out a new way of like, you can add on to that to still make it process oriented. So if you screw up and you say, hey, you’re so smart, or oh, gosh, you’re so beautiful, like, that’s not going to mess up your kid. It’s gonna help balance. And as long as most of the time you’re not overdoing it with praise, you’re not making it mostly attribute focus.

00;18;09;19 – 00;18;28;00

Dr. Jenicka Engler

You’re making more process focus. It’s not going to cause harm. And that’s the thing that I think a lot of the nuance is really missing with, is that most people are not going quite to the extremes and doing in a way that is going to be overbearing or cause harm. So I think most people these days pretty normal, pretty well.

00;18;28;00 – 00;18;37;27

Dr. Jenicka Engler

And I think it’s really unfortunate parents who are now afraid I have moms where damn, I’m saying I’m afraid to praise my child, or I praise my child that I just messed her up in some way. And it’s like.

00;18;37;27 – 00;18;38;13

Dr. Mona

Oh man.

00;18;38;14 – 00;18;39;21

Dr. Jenicka Engler

This breaks my heart.

00;18;39;23 – 00;19;03;03

Dr. Mona

Yeah. I mean, and I think about a lot of my parenting understanding comes not only from understanding research and data, but also clinical experience and also my childhood. Right. Like I look back at just all the trends and things that worked and didn’t work. And I grew up with a father who very rarely praised us, and it actually had a huge impact on me that I never really got him to just say, hey, I’m really proud of you for doing that.

00;19;03;03 – 00;19;19;19

Dr. Mona

And we were human beings like, you’re not going to live a life of being. I only need external validation if it’s a balance, like you said, like having someone that you really love, whether it’s a parent or a partner, say, hey, I noticed you did that, and I just want to say thank you, or I really meant a lot to me.

00;19;19;25 – 00;19;45;11

Dr. Mona

Like, that is super amazing for humans. Like we like that. So I think we forget that with children. Is that when I grew up with that, like it can create issues when you never get it and everything is like, well, you’re not doing this like I was told, oh my gosh, like, well, you didn’t get this. Like and a lot of people listening may resonate, but I know it’s very common in the Indian American education, like how we were raised as immigrants, like children of immigrants, like it was all about, well, you didn’t get an A, you got an A-minus, you got a B.

00;19;45;13 – 00;19;47;04

Dr. Jenicka Engler

I wasn’t an A-plus last year.

00;19;47;04 – 00;20;04;21

Dr. Mona

It was, you know, it’s like, oh my gosh, you were never praised for improvement, right? Like you said, the process and it was all metrics. It was all the end goal. And that actually has a huge impact because then you don’t have that growth mindset. You know, it all goes back to praising the process and saying, hey, I noticed you did better.

00;20;04;21 – 00;20;20;26

Dr. Mona

I noticed you improved like, it’s okay to say I’m proud of you because you improved. That is really cool. Ryan, the day we’re recording this, he is three, so he doesn’t color in the lines, right? And that’s totally normal. But I’m like, let me talk with him and see if I can teach him to color in between the lines.

00;20;20;26 – 00;20;36;14

Dr. Mona

And today, the day of this recording, he colored in between the lines and I was like, hey, like, look at this. And then I showed him the other picture from his school, like, hey, do you see how this one has the lines all over? But this one? You kept the color in between the black lines and he’s like, mommy, I did it!

00;20;36;14 – 00;20;52;11

Dr. Mona

And he was so happy. And it was this joyous, praise filled event. But it was about like, hey, look at how you’ve changed. And now he’s so excited to color between the lines, like you said, a ball rolling learning new test situation. So yeah, I don’t want to. Again, I don’t want parents to be afraid. It’s not like you’re going to ruin them.

00;20;52;11 – 00;21;07;00

Dr. Jenicka Engler

And that’s another one that’s been making the rounds on social media that you should never tell your child that you’re proud of them, because everything he you must be so proud of yourself. And I think that’s where the balance comes in. Again, I don’t think you need to be so extreme that you need to be praising them for.

00;21;07;00 – 00;21;20;27

Dr. Jenicka Engler

I’m so proud of you for everything. But again, it doesn’t need to be. You’re so proud of yourself for everything either. Like you’re allowed to be proud of your kids, and you can speak to that to them. And just having a balance between like a lot of the time, I’ll say first, oh, you must be so proud of yourself.

00;21;21;01 – 00;21;41;03

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Guess what? I’m really proud of you, too. It doesn’t have to be this black or white sort of yay or nay situation. You can approach it with balance and that makes it a lot easier. And then the other thing that I will say about praise is that if it’s inauthentic, kids can tell and say, yeah. And if you’re like, oh, good job.

00;21;41;03 – 00;21;59;09

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Yeah, you did like they picked up on that. Like it’s not. So that’s I think that the problem with getting into some of the nitty gritty about, well, you don’t say good job. So you’re working really hard. I’m like, the job is essentially the same thing as saying you’re working really hard. Like if there’s not a difference there, especially the young kids, they don’t know the difference so much.

00;21;59;12 – 00;22;16;02

Dr. Jenicka Engler

But it also it’s not just the language you’re using, it’s how you’re saying I’m so are excited. Your tone, your facial expressions. And so if there’s a mismatch between what you’re saying and how you’re saying it, because you think that you’re just supposed to praise and because you’re supposed to praise them and you’re not doing yourself any favors.

00;22;16;02 – 00;22;37;23

Dr. Jenicka Engler

They’re either just kids pick up when you’re not being authentic. As long as it’s authentic, you know you’re going to be fine. And like one of my like, best sort of go to hacks for how to praise in a process oriented manner is to just sort of narrate what the kid’s doing, right? You put your shoes on all by yourself, and you have that little raise and your intonation at the end with a little excitement like, yeah, let me play dummy.

00;22;37;23 – 00;22;53;24

Dr. Jenicka Engler

And that can inherently make it like praise without it being super evaluative, right? Yeah. See, other things like mix up your praise. Right. It shouldn’t be like a robotic good job every time. Good job every time. You know, and of course, I’m not going to say don’t say good job because I think everybody’s going to say good job at some point.

00;22;54;00 – 00;23;14;27

Dr. Jenicka Engler

I think there are more sort of descriptive, process oriented phrases that you can use for praise. Also throwing good job in totally fine, right? Yeah. Long as it’s authentic, as long as something that you’re going to use judiciously. I research supports that, and anybody who says otherwise is probably using fear mongering tactics to sell you on a parenting course or something.

00;23;14;27 – 00;23;28;26

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Yeah. You know, that’s the other thing. It’s like, how to do that? You’re doing it the wrong way. Learn how to do it the right way. But buying my course like, that’s like a big red flag. Somebody should be on the watch. Or if something is invoking this scare response tactic, what are they trying to sell you?

00;23;28;29 – 00;23;31;11

Dr. Jenicka Engler

His chest are they’re trying to sell you something.

00;23;31;13 – 00;23;48;25

Dr. Mona

Well, I have two other courses and I have scripts, and I was so hesitant to put scripts in there because what you just said, like scripts, only work if they feel natural and only if they’re delivered in the tone. And you mean it, right? Like you just said. And it’s so. Because I put it in there because I know people really like them, just so that they get an idea.

00;23;48;25 – 00;24;03;07

Dr. Mona

And I said in the first thing I’m like, I’m going to give you all some scripts, but if you are not using it in a tone that makes sense for you and that you actually mean it, it’s not going to go anywhere because non-verbal communication is actually way more powerful, like we know, than actually what you’re saying with children.

00;24;03;07 – 00;24;18;27

Dr. Mona

Like, you could sit there with a look and they’re going to be like, oh, versus what you’re saying. And like you said, if you’re like on your phone and your child does something and you’re like, oh yeah, good job. Like that’s really great, they’re going to know that there was no intention behind that joy. And I love what you mentioned about that raise of The voice at the end.

00;24;18;27 – 00;24;41;08

Dr. Mona

Right. Like, hey, you put on your shoes on your own like that. Obviously just from a vibe makes me feel like, oh, thanks, Jenica. I just put on my shoes on my know, I feel so good. I love it, but this is so important. And like the scripts and also the don’t see this, but say this, I will be honest, it stresses me out seeing that not only as a parent because I’m like, dude, sometimes I see that like be careful.

00;24;41;08 – 00;24;42;23

Dr. Mona

Like sometimes I say be careful.

00;24;42;29 – 00;24;44;06

Dr. Jenicka Engler

It’s automatic, it’s.

00;24;44;06 – 00;25;00;28

Dr. Mona

Automatic, and I think that I’m ruining my son. Like it happens. And again, we’re used to it. But yes, you could kind of change that way and come up with new scripts, but do not feel bad if you’re listening to this and you don’t say the right thing all the time, like it’s okay. Like you’re not ruining your kid.

00;25;00;28 – 00;25;08;05

Dr. Mona

I promise you, you’re not like, I get the same messages that you do. Like, oh my God, I can’t believe I said this. Like, and that’s so stressful. As a parent.

00;25;08;07 – 00;25;28;04

Dr. Jenicka Engler

I have to say, the fact that it makes me do a double take and I know better rate like these accounts that are spreading these sort of things. I mean, they just are so good with marketing. They really suck you in and it’s hard not to get sucked in. I mean, I’ve actually at some of my posts, I actually went and did the research because I saw those posts.

00;25;28;04 – 00;25;47;04

Dr. Jenicka Engler

They’re like, wait, am I missing my kid about it? That doesn’t sound right. That doesn’t go against the education and research. Right? So, you know, let me double check this. Maybe there’s some research that’s new that I’m not aware of. And I look at it and I just know there is no research on that. That shows telling your kid you made me feel mad or sad or whatever will lead to codependency, but that is been making the rounds.

00;25;47;04 – 00;26;10;20

Dr. Jenicka Engler

I’m looking at the research. I’m like, it’s all about addiction and and these and other things. And I’m like, oh, that’s really interesting that we’re taking a term that is, you know, not even really applying as often in normal sort of, non pathological relationships. And we are now saying that because you made mommy feel sad when you told me you hated me, now I’m messing you up for life.

00;26;10;20 – 00;26;11;28

Dr. Jenicka Engler

I mean, it just really.

00;26;12;00 – 00;26;29;29

Dr. Mona

Now I’m going to be codependent and I’m going to think all relationships like, yeah, there’s something it’s research is important, don’t get me wrong. But besides research, it’s just looking at things with a balanced lens like. And I think many parents can do that, but they forget when they get into all these things that they’re reading or all that, and like just stepping back and say, yeah, being like, hey, does this make sense?

00;26;29;29 – 00;26;40;00

Dr. Mona

I’m not ruining my kid. Like I’m giving them balance, I love them, I want to show them praise. I get that I have to praise the process and that’s it. Literally. That’s the podcast. Like I like.

00;26;40;04 – 00;26;47;16

Dr. Jenicka Engler

It. Balance, make it authentic and try to process more visual attributes. And we’re done.

00;26;47;19 – 00;27;00;12

Dr. Mona

Yeah, I was just going to ask you I think that would be what would be your final message? I think that was an amazing final message, but is there anything else that you’d want to add for everyone listening today? You all have given so many great pearls and I love talking to you, but anything else there?

00;27;00;14 – 00;27;19;16

Dr. Jenicka Engler

So what I would say is that if there are accounts that you are following that are making you question your parenting intuition or making you feel bad about yourself as a parent, go ahead and Marie Kondo them because it is not worth it. And chances are they are probably posting things that are not even accurate anyways.

00;27;19;18 – 00;27;34;24

Dr. Mona

Yeah, and or like Jenica said, there is a marketing aspect of this, right? We know that from a social media standpoint that extreme views sell things that get you to click and get your emotions high and like that are almost in a way controversial is what’s going to sell, not even in just in the parenting space.

00;27;34;24 – 00;27;49;12

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Everybody in algorithm push is sensationalized. Yeah. White non nuanced content. It does not promote the nuanced like very well balanced but sort of boring stuff because a lot of this is basic and it’s capturing enough.

00;27;49;19 – 00;28;07;05

Dr. Mona

That’s like our accounts okay. We’re like boring even though I’m telling you right now, like I told my husband, I’m like, I’m boring because I’m balanced. And that’s okay. I will get the people that really understand the balance and want that. But you’re right, I’m not an extremist. I actually understand other viewpoints, etc. but yes, it’s true. Oh jenica, this is so awesome chatting with you.

00;28;07;06 – 00;28;24;20

Dr. Mona

So we talked about reward systems already. I’m going to have you back on the show to talk about time outs. That’s another thing that’s making the rounds and has been making the rounds for a long time. And I think there’s a lot of misconceptions on how to do time outs, but also that it’s harmful. But, tell everyone where people can stay connected if they want to stay in touch with your information.

00;28;24;22 – 00;28;39;15

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Absolutely. So you can find me on both Instagram and YouTube. My handle is Doctor Jenicka, Dr. J e n I see CA and you can also find me and stock stories.

00;28;39;17 – 00;28;50;14

Dr. Mona

Awesome. Well, I am going to be linking everything to our show notes so you can stay connected and you’re going to take a listen to the other episodes as well. And thank you so much for joining us today.

00;28;50;16 – 00;28;52;08

Dr. Jenicka Engler

Thanks so much for having me. Always a pleasure.

00;28;52;14 – 00;29;10;21

Dr. Mona

And for everyone listening. If you love this conversation, which I really hope you did, I hope you appreciate the balanced approach of this podcast and also my platform and connecting with people like Doctor Jenicka. Make sure you leave a review, call out this episode, see what you learn from it. See that it made you feel like a better parent raising your kid and not feeling overwhelmed.

00;29;10;23 – 00;29;14;27

Dr. Mona

And I cannot wait to chat with her again and another guest next week.

00;29;14;27 – 00;29;19;19

Dr. Mona

Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review.

00;29;19;21 – 00;29;22;22

Dr. Mona

Share this episode with a friend. Share it on your social media.

00;29;22;25 – 00;29;29;15

Dr. Mona

Make sure to follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram and subscribe to my YouTube channel, PedsDocTalk TV.