There has been a growing shift of young male voters towards right-wing politics, driven by feelings of alienation from progressive narratives that often overlook and dismiss their struggles. The right has capitalized on this by promoting hyper-masculine ideals that resonate with this demographic.

This week, I welcome back Ruth Whippman, author of the book Boy Mom, to discuss how to foster emotional connections, have open dialogue and reimagine boyhood to help boys develop healthier and more inclusive identities.

 

She joins me to discuss:

• The noticeable shift of young male voters towards right-wing politics
• How the left has struggled to effectively communicate a positive and inclusive narrative for boys and men
• That messages celebrating hyper-masculinity have resonated with young men, filling in a gap left by progressive movements

 

To connect with Ruth Whippman follow her on Instagram @ruthwhippman, check out all her resources at http://www.ruthwhippman.com/, join her Substack: I Blame Society and purchase her book Boy Mom.

 

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00;00;00;02 – 00;00;30;29
Ruth Whippman
So I think that the left and channel has done a really poor job of articulating a positive story for boys and men. And in many ways, I think boys, you know, this particular generation of boys feels quite shut down by the progressive left. So what? This was the generation, really that I was studying. And, boy, mom, I interviewed many, many boys of, you know, from about, you know, 16, 17 through to, you know, mid 20s.

00;00;31;01 – 00;01;00;10
Ruth Whippman
And this is the sort of micro generation I’ll call them that were going through puberty around the time when the MeToo movement was really kicking off online. And then now it’s like the voting age of, you know, college age. And they have spent their entire adolescence in the shadow of this conversation around toxic masculinity. You know, and I think they grew up with this message that they are bad, that they are harmful, that they’re just kind of these predators in waiting.

00;01;00;10 – 00;01;22;07
Dr. Mona
Hello, and welcome back to the PedsDocTalk podcast. I’m Doctor Mona, your host, pediatrician and mom friend, and I’m so excited to welcome back a returning guest this week, Ruth Whippman. If you don’t know who she is. Let me fill you in. Ruth joined me last year to talk about raising boys in a culture of toxic masculinity and how it impacts society, their mental health, and their relationships.

00;01;22;14 – 00;01;47;04
Dr. Mona
It was such a rich conversation. But one topic we didn’t get to fully unpack was the connection between masculinity and voting trends. Well, after the 2024 presidential election here in the United States, I couldn’t really stop thinking about it. We saw a noticeable shift young male voters leaning more towards conservative ideals. Why is it a response to cultural shifts, a sense of identity under threat, or something else?

00;01;47;07 – 00;02;19;24
Dr. Mona
And why are we seeing more prominent figures like Joe Rogan, Elon Musk and even Mark Zuckerberg aligning themselves with conservative values tied to masculinity? From their podcast to their public personas, they’re shaping cultural narratives that appeal to men navigating what it means to be a man in today’s world. To help us understand this rise of masculinity and conservative policy, I invited Ruth back to dive into how politics and masculinity intertwine and why these trends are becoming so prominent, especially in the aftermath of this past election.

00;02;20;01 – 00;02;44;18
Dr. Mona
When I first started exploring this topic, I didn’t realize just how deeply our perceptions of masculinity influence not just personal identity, but the entire political landscape, from voting patterns to cultural narratives. It’s all interconnected in ways that truly blew my mind. So buckle up. This conversation is going to challenge assumptions, uncover surprising truths, and most importantly, explore what we can do to create a more balanced and inclusive culture moving forward.

00;02;44;25 – 00;02;57;10
Dr. Mona
And oh yes, make sure to subscribe to the podcast and share it! If you love this episode and tag me. And at Ruth Whitman on social media. Let’s get to it. Thank you, Ruth, for coming back on. Like I said, you are a fave here.

00;02;57;13 – 00;03;00;17
Ruth Whippman
Oh, thank you so much for having me. It’s such a pleasure.

00;03;00;20 – 00;03;19;05
Dr. Mona
Well, like I said, that conversation that we did about, redefining toxic masculinity and how it can negatively impact friendships and emotional health was a very well received episode. I got so many DMs from moms, dads telling me that they sent it to boy moms and girl moms, that it didn’t really matter, that they wanted to get that message out.

00;03;19;05 – 00;03;27;08
Dr. Mona
And your book is doing that. For anyone who’s not familiar, tell us more about the inspiration behind your book. Boy. Mom.

00;03;27;10 – 00;04;04;10
Ruth Whippman
So, as you mentioned, I have three sons of my own. And, you know, honestly, with the first two sons, I really didn’t actually think that much about gender when it came to race. So it’s like if you have boys, you really have to worry about gender. That was more like what you did if you had daughters. But then my third son was born right as the MeToo movement was exploding and we were like launched into this global cultural reckoning around toxic masculinity and male harm and suddenly, you know, all of these problems that we were just, you know, had kind of dismissed before were just right there in the mainstream.

00;04;04;12 – 00;04;31;10
Ruth Whippman
And there I was, a feminist, a mother of three boys. I was like, how can I reconcile all these parts of myself or these parts of my identity? How are we going wrong on a systemic level, where we’re raising boys to think things like sexual violence and all the rest of it are normalized, but also like, what is it like to be a boy in this little tiny generation where this whole conversation is happening, you know, to grow up in the shadow of that?

00;04;31;13 – 00;04;44;05
Ruth Whippman
And so, you know, this poem is my attempt to combine my own life with research and reporting, to really get to the bottom of what what’s going on with boys and men and what it’s like to raise a boy at the moment.

00;04;44;07 – 00;05;00;19
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And I think, you know, this political landscape, which is what we’re talking about now, I think is a very good reflection of where these patterns are going. And we did talk about this briefly on the last episode, and I was inspired because we weren’t able to really dive deeper into the whys. And what does this mean?

00;05;00;19 – 00;05;26;12
Dr. Mona
And how can these things tie together? And I really do think that it ties in together. And we’ll kind of go into some data that we’ve seen or, you know, some opinion articles that I’ve read about the election and the exit polls that we’ve seen. But for people that may not understand, do you think that there is a connection between how masculinity is viewed, whether we want to define as toxic masculinity and how people may vote, on the political ideals that they may align with, and why or why not that why or why not?

00;05;26;13 – 00;05;27;11
Dr. Mona
Is there that connection?

00;05;27;16 – 00;05;58;21
Ruth Whippman
So yeah, absolutely. I think there’s a huge connection in many ways. Masculinity was almost the defining issue of this election. And what’s really strange is that, you know, in the last election, when you saw like the Hillary Trump election, it was the left that was making, the election about gender and about having a first female president. And in a way, I think that the this year that the left were really trying to stay away from that gender stuff, they didn’t push Kamala Harris’s, gender or racial identity very hard at all.

00;05;58;24 – 00;06;24;03
Ruth Whippman
And it was the right that was really making masculinity and men and gender absolute at this. Absolutely at the centerpiece. And I think they were pushing this narrative, which is like men have been left behind. Men have been harmed by all this progress that women have made. Women are like taking something away from men. That’s really man’s rightful, rightful, you know, birthright.

00;06;24;05 – 00;06;43;04
Ruth Whippman
And that we should go back to this era of, like, old masculinity, this where men are men and muscles and guns and, you know, so is Hulk Hogan. And this real, like, almost over performance of masculinity in the election cycle. And, you know, it turns out that that was really appealing to many people.

00;06;43;06 – 00;07;00;25
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And I mean, we talked about this that, you know, a lot of a lot of the voters that came and a lot of the people I had been talking to, you know, friends of mine, male friends especially, you know, a lot of them, a lot of them listen to Joe Rogan. And he was sort of, you know, obviously Trump went on there a lot of his a lot of his team had gone on Joe Rogan’s podcast.

00;07;00;29 – 00;07;22;08
Dr. Mona
Who is this embodiment of masculinity? Toxic masculinity in many ways. And I read an article, an opinion article that. And I’ll link this article to our show notes, everybody, if you want to read it. That many men voted for Trump because they felt that they mattered with Trump. And why do you think many young men have felt like they didn’t matter before this?

00;07;22;08 – 00;07;30;11
Dr. Mona
When it comes to the political landscape, and what do you think this campaign or how they position masculinity may have felt them more, included and mattered.

00;07;30;17 – 00;08;01;15
Ruth Whippman
So I think that the left in general has done a really poor job of articulating a positive story for boys and men, and in many ways, I think boys, you know, this particular generation of boys feels quite shut down by the progressive left. Yeah. What? This was the generation, really that I was studying. And, boy, mom, I interviewed many, many boys of, you know, from about, you know, 16, 17 through to, you know, mid 20s.

00;08;01;18 – 00;08;31;01
Ruth Whippman
And this is the sort of micro generation I’ll call them, that were going through puberty around the time when the MeToo movement was really kicking off online. And then now of like voting age of, you know, college age. And they have spent their entire adolescence in the shadow of this conversation around toxic masculinity, you know, and I think they grew up with this message that they are bad, that they are harmful, that they’re just kind of these predators in waiting.

00;08;31;03 – 00;08;50;04
Ruth Whippman
And also not just that they’re bad and harmful, but they are very lucky that they’re privileged, that they have everything, that they have all this power. Now we know, and I found during my research for boys mom, that although male privilege is real and, you know, some of these things are true and it you know that there is truth in this story.

00;08;50;06 – 00;09;16;20
Ruth Whippman
Many boys also have lost out in very in a lot of real important ways under this same system, in this patriarchal system. So they’ve lost out in terms of emotionality, in terms of connection, in terms of their ability to form relationships. You know, patriarchy harms boys and men too. But I think the left has done a very bad job of articulating that to boys or taking boys problems seriously and men’s problems seriously.

00;09;16;20 – 00;09;35;22
Ruth Whippman
You know, Richard Reeves, who writes a lot about this stuff, he said that boys have got the message, you don’t have problems. You are the problem. And I think that goes against that. And I think there’s been, you know, the Democrats websites, this election cycle, they had this website where they said, you know, these are all the groups that we stand for.

00;09;35;22 – 00;09;54;10
Ruth Whippman
And it was, you know, they mentioned every racial group. They mentioned women, they mentioned trans people, they mentioned everything. And the only group that was left out of that was men and boys. So, you know, there’s this invisibility of men and boys. And I think they realized that too late and we’re trying to gain some ground.

00;09;54;10 – 00;10;05;26
Ruth Whippman
But by then, you know, there was this idea that progressive politics focus on women and girls and right wing politics are where men and boys can find a home.

00;10;05;28 – 00;10;26;13
Dr. Mona
Now, let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors. And, you know, I think for a lot of women that may be listening who may have voted on the left side, right, you know, who might say, well, well, you know, we we are the marginalized one as females like, of course, men, experienced this. And so when they hear this, they may think, well, why, why are we positioning them as this victim?

00;10;26;13 – 00;10;41;28
Dr. Mona
And I don’t think we are doing that, by the way. I think this is actually just facts of like what has been happening and what, of course, every human being wants to feel seen, like even us, who we may perceive as a male who you know, who has more privilege than us in many ways, they want to feel seen.

00;10;41;28 – 00;11;05;22
Dr. Mona
And of course, if they’re getting if they’re feeling like, well, this platform is not really speaking to me or really just positioning themselves with with women and female empowerment, which is obviously very important too. But if they feel slighted or if they feel not seen, of course they’re going to look for a place of inclusivity, whether it’s with, a podcaster that they like or whether it is with a political party that is giving these messages.

00;11;05;22 – 00;11;31;14
Dr. Mona
I mean, I saw Trump go to the USC games and also like other very masculine things, you know, like he was he was where young boys feel like, oh, yeah, this is an invasion of that masculinity that I want to reclaim. And it’s almost like I’m not asking for the left to do that too, but a little bit more balance there and not ostracizing, like you said, that demographic that was turned out to be a very huge demographic.

00;11;31;15 – 00;11;56;02
Ruth Whippman
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that the, the it’s a very kind of complex thing and there’s so many things admitted into it. But really many of the reasons why boys and men are struggling, to do with masculinity, that to do with these masculine norms that force them to be tough and to man up and not. Yeah. And so actually, what the right is selling them in many ways is kind of more of the, the thing that’s harming them in the first place.

00;11;56;08 – 00;12;22;01
Ruth Whippman
But because they’re taught from such an early age to so much into having a masculine identity, anything feminine coded is shameful. You know, it’s so, you know, they’re really taught that they have to be all these things. They have to be taught that masculinity is where their worth lies, that when somebody comes along and says, okay, well, I can give you this, I can restore this to you, you know, this thing that you’ve lost, then it’s really, really appealing.

00;12;22;01 – 00;12;40;24
Ruth Whippman
They’re primed for that message already. They’re primed to think, oh, I want to be a Hulk Hogan. I want to be a Joe Rogan. You know this. You know they’re already ready to receive this message. And the left, meanwhile, instead of saying, actually, we hey, you, we’re here, you’ll pay for your likely and struggling with your mental health.

00;12;40;24 – 00;12;55;04
Ruth Whippman
And a lot of that has to do with patriarchy and masculinity norms. And we can help you that instead of saying that, they’re just saying, shut up, you’re so privileged, you know, it’s time for you to be quiet. Just take up less space. And, you know, we don’t care about you.

00;12;55;06 – 00;13;18;07
Dr. Mona
Yeah. Or just let’s focus our energy on these other demographics that, you know, we feel and it is a sense of being ostracized. And it wasn’t until I started talking to some friends of mine who are younger men meaning like, you know, late 20s, 30s, like, I know in my community that were like voting for Trump. And I was like in my head I was like, you know, I’ve talked to I’ve talked about open, like I didn’t vote for Trump.

00;13;18;07 – 00;13;32;26
Dr. Mona
And so I was like, why would you do this? Like and then I started talking to them more, and I kind of realized it wasn’t even just about that. It was about many other things and policies. And I started to just open my mind a little bit more on, like where people’s intent came from when they voted the way that they did.

00;13;32;26 – 00;13;51;14
Dr. Mona
And this is a really good conversation, because maybe both parties can learn how to how to reach this demographic. Like is there I’m not sure if you if you were able to see any of the exit polls. If not, that’s okay. But if you did, was there anything that surprised you or didn’t surprise you? As how it can connect to masculinity and politics?

00;13;51;17 – 00;14;13;21
Ruth Whippman
Yeah. So what we saw this shift, you know, with this, with younger male voters is that they did move pretty significantly towards Trump. What was also really interesting is that so did female voters. Not as much, but young women actually moved towards Trump as well, which was really shocking to me. So I think the message on the left was failing to punch through in general.

00;14;13;23 – 00;14;42;21
Ruth Whippman
But it used to be that young men were pretty, what’s the word? Reliable source of left wing support. You know, black young men always used to vote for the progressive candidate. Yes. As you know, not individually, but as a group. That’s where they went. And this time they moved over. So although it wasn’t like this, you know, I think we may be having, had at the moment that it was this huge, like, you know, it was this huge difference in like a vast majority of young men voted for Trump.

00;14;42;21 – 00;14;52;20
Ruth Whippman
It was a little more than 50% voted, for Trump. But that was a big swing because there used to be such a reliable, demographic for progressive parties.

00;14;52;23 – 00;15;07;15
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And the yeah, the graphic that I saw, which I’ll, I’ll link as well or will try to put it on our visual for YouTube is that it was just a smaller margin of like, you know, before it was like a little bit more of like that space and comfort. But then it was more of like again moving towards that.

00;15;07;15 – 00;15;09;15
Dr. Mona
And so it’s like, there’s definitely a shift here.

00;15;09;17 – 00;15;32;22
Ruth Whippman
Right? They’re definitely moving towards the right. And I think this is both a photo. You know, it’s partly because I think the Trump team did some really sort of clever moves with social media, with the algorithm, with these, particular influencers, with that kind of bro. Rogan you know, this went well in a way that the Harris campaign, didn’t really leverage those things.

00;15;32;24 – 00;15;51;25
Ruth Whippman
And, you know, people were saying that Harris should have gone on Joe Rogan’s podcast as well, and she refused to do that. And so, you know, I don’t I can’t really comment on that decision, but I, I think that some of this was just sort of, you know, good marketing and some of it was sort of silence of the left to really capture that demographic.

00;15;51;25 – 00;15;59;07
Ruth Whippman
I think people if you tell a group of people that they suck and that they’re terrible and that they don’t have any problems, they’re not going to vote for you.

00;15;59;09 – 00;16;14;22
Dr. Mona
And where do you think you know the messages of like, you suck like you. Obviously they’re not saying you suck, but like, where do you think, do you feel like they said that terminology or word like, how is the messaging you feel coming across that, that a young adult would feel like they don’t value, aren’t not valued by that side.

00;16;14;25 – 00;16;20;10
Ruth Whippman
Right. So I obviously you’re absolutely right. Like the Harris campaign is not like putting out official messages saying.

00;16;20;12 – 00;16;28;15
Dr. Mona
Like, you know what in that messaging do you think was like the the and you know, you’re not a political commentator. What do you think that messaging was? Yeah.

00;16;28;20 – 00;16;50;03
Ruth Whippman
Yeah. So I think it’s more of a kind of I think it’s a couple things. I think it’s partly just in the atmosphere generally, I think men do not feel and especially young men do not feel particularly at home in progressive politics and progressive circles generally. I think a lot of these boys were telling me that in their schools and their workplaces, they felt pretty shut down.

00;16;50;03 – 00;17;06;12
Ruth Whippman
They were felt like, you know, if they tried to speak to their problems or the pain that they were experiencing, they would get a lot of, don’t take up too much space, time to shut up, time to give everybody else a voice, time to give women a voice, etc., etc. and they had sort of some patience for that.

00;17;06;12 – 00;17;32;12
Ruth Whippman
I think there was some goodwill amongst them for that, but I think they started to feel like we can’t say anything. They felt a bit like there’s a bit of gaslighting in a way. It was almost like you don’t have any problems. You know, there’s nothing going wrong for you. Even though we know that the male suicide rate today is nearly four times the female suicide rate, we know that young men aren’t going to college in the same numbers, that they don’t feel able to find jobs, that you know, that men are having a lot of problems.

00;17;32;12 – 00;17;53;00
Ruth Whippman
But I think it became this like men and boys became this right wing coded course. So it did, you know, like a cause that the left were really embracing. The other thing is, you know, the messaging around women’s issues, you know, for instance, the big one was they relied heavily on the abortion message and they put it as a women’s issue, which it is.

00;17;53;02 – 00;18;28;03
Ruth Whippman
But also young men don’t want to get somebody pregnant and then be forced to have a baby. They don’t want, you know, and I don’t know, I think they should have done more to settle. This is an issue that affects everybody. You know, I think it’s it’s a very rare man that once you know, to have a baby that they didn’t choose right and that they would be, you know, at minimum, you know, for getting a side or the parenting, but like at minimum on the hook for child support for ever, you know, and I think had the Democrats sort of coded this less as a women’s issue to do with my body, my choice,

00;18;28;03 – 00;18;46;22
Ruth Whippman
you know, even though that’s incredibly important. But just to be like, you know, that we all need reproductive freedom. We all need the ability not to be parents and to to step up to become caregivers when we want to be, as well as any other male issues that, you know, mental health and, yeah, education, jobs, etc., etc..

00;18;46;25 – 00;19;06;25
Dr. Mona
Yeah. You know, it’s so easy. Obviously me and you are both not political commentators at the in the slightest, nor do we, nor you know, obviously it’s easy to Monday morning quarterback like meaning obviously after the election. So like and I know that happened a lot right. I know obviously that the the Democratic campaign had a lot of finger pointing at what, what could have been done.

00;19;06;25 – 00;19;25;09
Dr. Mona
But you are right in that the messaging, like in my head, I was like, would it have been better to just talk about how health access for all like, you know, yes. Having autonomy for all rather it’s up and then including that messaging about abortion. Right. But yes, of course men don’t ever like from being in the medical field.

00;19;25;09 – 00;19;45;04
Dr. Mona
Men aren’t always thinking. We men don’t generally have to deal with that issue. And I recognize that it is. Usually it is women with the abortion, IVF access. You know, it seems like people want to attack, attack a lot of feminine freedoms when it comes to health, but in general, like freedom of autonomy, you know, like freedom of health advocacy and, health choice would have been a great platform.

00;19;45;04 – 00;20;06;22
Dr. Mona
Of course, we’re speaking after the fact, but you’re right, it would have been more inclusive. And I think, you know, from the exit date, I saw, like, there wasn’t a big shift. Like, I think that demographic that, you know, maybe talking about abortion would get a lot of younger females. But like you said, yes, still more younger females did vote for Democrats, but that margin compared to elections in the past had shrunk a little bit more.

00;20;06;22 – 00;20;26;22
Dr. Mona
So it’s it’s interesting to me like why that shift is happening in boys and or males and females and young ones too, that they’re feeling. Well, this isn’t really resonating with me. And of course, there’s other things that I consider that maybe could have been done better. And, you know, things that we can even talk about it like things that I feel from a cultural standpoint has really shifted.

00;20;26;24 – 00;20;52;08
Dr. Mona
One of those being that I think nowadays a lot of young men and women don’t look up to celebrities as much as they do people that they find relatable, meaning podcasters. People like, not mainstream media. And I don’t think this is only Trump supporters. I think this is across the board. And I go back to Joe Rogan having a very big platform and podcasters who have those platforms, and those people should be using it for good.

00;20;52;08 – 00;21;17;22
Dr. Mona
But of course, if it’s a host that is more aligned with masculinity beliefs, then of course they’re going to attract those kind of listeners. But, you know, the celebrity endorsements and this person’s endorsing and this person’s endorsing. I think, nowadays, especially a lot of young people, or they may like the celebrities, but they more feel connected to their social media favorites, and they’re podcasters that give them, the information and, you know, feel more aligned to in a personal level.

00;21;17;25 – 00;21;44;27
Ruth Whippman
Yeah. And what’s interesting is like this issue of masculinity, you know, we think of it as maybe a thing from the past, you know. Yeah, you know, that that fixed gender roles. But if anything, the expectations of masculinity on boys and young men are ramping up, you know, they’re not increasing. And so with social media, with podcasting, it’s just this like, almost caricature version of masculinity, which is like muscles and, you know, protein shakes.

00;21;44;27 – 00;22;05;26
Ruth Whippman
And yes, men only diets and alpha males. And all of this rhetoric, which is just like exploded online, you know, in part as a backlash to feminist things. But and I think the boys are feeling more and more pressure to be masculine and this almost kind of caricatured way. And they’re feeling that that is where their worth lies.

00;22;05;26 – 00;22;33;03
Ruth Whippman
And yeah, we know that the cost of not appearing masculine for boys is much greater than the cost of not appearing feminine, because, you know, it’s not as a mask, as a marker of West. And so it’s very easy for these kinds of, influencers to leverage that, you know, and to leverage these fears and anxieties that boys and men have about their own masculinity and sort of convert that into political messages.

00;22;33;05 – 00;22;50;16
Dr. Mona
Now, let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors. Yeah, and I love that you just mention that, because that was my next question, that you think that it’s actually changing and maybe not for the better. Like, how do you think perceptions of masculinity have changed in recent years compared to years past, and how might that influence political behavior or voting patterns?

00;22;50;19 – 00;23;12;14
Ruth Whippman
Right. Because I think when we look at the past, you know, the vision of masculinity, it was more like the provider protector, the family man, you know, the the the guy, the breadwinner, the guy earning the money. And that has changed because obviously more women are in the workplace. And, you know, and especially younger women are coming through and actually in many ways are more successful than, young men and in those ways.

00;23;12;17 – 00;23;33;12
Ruth Whippman
And so I think that, masculinity now, the sort of vision of what it means to be masculine is leaning much heavier on this, like action hero vision of it. It’s like, yeah, superhero muscles and guns and like hand-to-hand combat. And so there’s this very cartoonish vision of masculinity, but without that kind of provide a protector, thing undergirding it.

00;23;33;12 – 00;23;58;17
Ruth Whippman
So it’s not so much step up and be a good family man. It’s be like, you know, a superhero bat like, you know, a fitness influencer, that sort of thing. And I think is putting a huge amount of pressure on boys. I mean, you say it like body image things for boys. Absolutely. I just like exploding in this like bloody anxiety that a generation ago boys just really didn’t have that was mainly, you know, mainly a girl thing.

00;23;58;17 – 00;23;59;27
Ruth Whippman
You know, you’re right.

00;23;59;27 – 00;24;26;28
Dr. Mona
And I, I love to debunk that a lot in my, you know, on my platform because I, you know, take care of birth to 21. I think people forget that pediatricians take care of teenagers. They think sometimes it’s a baby, a baby doctor. But I will have a lot of teenage boys coming in talking to me about how they hate their bodies because they’re very lean, or they may not have gone through puberty to get a little bit more muscle mass or even if they’ve gone through puberty, their genetics don’t predispose them to be a bulky person.

00;24;26;28 – 00;24;47;26
Dr. Mona
And also, we know, you know, I have I have actually a trainer who’s a male and we’ve talked about this, that a lot of the people in that world on social, online are taking illicit drugs or are helping their bodies look like that, right? I mean, I’m talking like your bodybuilders and like the muscular, manly guy. Yes, some people do it naturally because they have the genetics to support that.

00;24;47;28 – 00;25;18;11
Dr. Mona
But by and large, there is a lot of illusion similar to like women back in the day when, you know, body image issues started more with women of like the supermodels on the magazines. I do believe that we’re going to we’re seeing it more for boys, and I see it a lot in my office, and it breaks my heart because people often think that it’s only girls that deal with body image issues or girls in certain body types, but my males who are in leaner bodies, or my males who are even maybe or more on the like more have more fat and muscle like they are all dealing with this too.

00;25;18;11 – 00;25;28;23
Dr. Mona
And it we know that it impacts mental health as well as, you know, their how they interact with their peers and all of that because they feel less here then which it is a huge issue that I love to address as well.

00;25;28;25 – 00;25;46;02
Ruth Whippman
Yeah. And it’s hugely important. And I think, offset what compounds that is that they have all these pressures and then they don’t have the same support. Right. Networks does tend to have to kind of counter it. So we’ve got some women. There’s a pretty strong you know, there’s diet culture can be awful. But there’s also a pretty strong body positivity movement.

00;25;46;02 – 00;25;57;08
Ruth Whippman
And so there’s cancers and there’s all this social support that girls can kind of be in community talking about this. And you know, whereas I think with boys that often suffering this stuff on their own, you know.

00;25;57;15 – 00;25;58;02
Dr. Mona
They are.

00;25;58;05 – 00;26;18;14
Ruth Whippman
Shameful to talk about. Which isn’t to say that girls, women don’t feel shame about, of course, but there’s sort of more of an established like push back, you know, there’s ways to sort of counter it. There’s things to find online contact to find out, like, whereas I think with boys that’s really in its infancy and it comes with all these messages about who you have to be as a man, you know.

00;26;18;14 – 00;26;42;23
Ruth Whippman
Yeah. How strong, how tough, how invulnerable, how, you know. And often those are about like hiding your emotions. Not not, you know, not showing weakness, not showing vulnerability. And it’s a really, really toxic message. And then these influences and politicians come in and they leverage all these anxieties that vulnerable teenage boys are going through. And they say, you know, we can make you this thing that you’re desperate to be anyway.

00;26;42;23 – 00;26;45;08
Ruth Whippman
And it’s deeply unhealthy.

00;26;45;10 – 00;27;04;21
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And I know we’ve already kind of alluded to many different, responses to the the question I may have, but are there any other ways that role, that media and cultural narratives play in reinforcing or challenging these traditional masculine ideals, especially as it would apply to politics? Is there anything else that we’re missing from that?

00;27;04;23 – 00;27;36;11
Ruth Whippman
In terms of the messages that boys are, getting in the world, in terms of what we can do about it? Yeah. I mean, I think it’s everywhere. You know, I see this with my own boys, and it’s something that starts right from birth. It’s like they are fed superhero stories. That said, this kind of hero myth that fed this, like, invulnerability myth, they’re fed this idea that human interaction is like all about battles and fighting and comeback, whereas girls tend to get stories that are more about relationships and emotions and having a good emotional.

00;27;36;11 – 00;27;41;15
Ruth Whippman
Like I was watching the show, the movie Inside Out, you know, the inside.

00;27;41;15 – 00;27;42;24
Dr. Mona
Oh, I love it.

00;27;42;27 – 00;28;02;18
Ruth Whippman
Yeah. So wonderful. But what’s so fascinating about that is that, you know, I was watching it with my with my youngest son, who was six at the time, and, it’s so, you know, a very complex story about a girl’s emotional life and her interiority. And you see her friends, and they’ve got complex emotions, and her mom has complex emotions.

00;28;02;22 – 00;28;10;19
Ruth Whippman
They’re all tracking everybody else’s emotions. And every time a male character goes on screen in that movie, this guy is an emotional idiot.

00;28;10;21 – 00;28;11;02
Dr. Mona
Yes.

00;28;11;07 – 00;28;32;29
Ruth Whippman
That is like, you know. Yeah. Like, I don’t know what the emotions are like asleep at the well and they have no, I know, hang on. And then there’s a boy. He appears in the first movie and it’s the same thing. It’s just like, chaos inside his brain. And it’s the stereotype. If that was a stereotype about a girl, you know, being bad at math or ditzy, you know, whatever it is.

00;28;32;29 – 00;28;48;28
Ruth Whippman
Yeah, it would not pass in a mainstream stream movie, but because it’s new with boys and men, we just give it a pass. We don’t even notice. But I’m watching this with my son, and I’m like, what are we telling him? You know, we’re telling him everyone can have a complex emotional life except you. Like you’re an emotional idiot.

00;28;48;28 – 00;28;56;04
Ruth Whippman
What are we saying? You’re not capable of this. Even though his emotions are every bit as complex as anybody else’s. You know.

00;28;56;06 – 00;29;13;05
Dr. Mona
As. Absolutely no, I agree. I agree with that. I saw I set out an inside out to and the jokes about the the men being, you know, obviously the dads, the dads, the internal of the dad and all that and the stereotypes that come with that, you know, I mean, I already had a movie that I do believe has more good than good.

00;29;13;09 – 00;29;19;09
Dr. Mona
Good than not good. I was like, oh, could they, could they have just done a little bit of emotional exploration of the boy?

00;29;19;11 – 00;29;41;20
Ruth Whippman
Yeah. And it just seemed like, oh, you know, it’s hard to imagine a movie like that with a boy character, you know. Oh, here’s my friend. Yeah. Boys have emotional lives, of course. You know. And the boys that I interviewed for, boy mom, you know, they were really struggling with difficult emotions that they couldn’t take anywhere. You know, they couldn’t share with their friends, they couldn’t share with, the adults in their lives.

00;29;41;27 – 00;29;52;01
Ruth Whippman
They were under so much pressure to squash them down and, you know, and it’s got in the way of their ability to form relationships. And, you know, I just want to say that model to boys.

00;29;52;01 – 00;30;09;05
Dr. Mona
More from the research that you did and the people that you interviewed, I was curious, did you did any of them say where they were getting positive, nontoxic masculinity role models from, like whether it was in their live real lives or media? And if it was media, where was that? I’m just curious if they were getting anything positive.

00;30;09;07 – 00;30;31;06
Ruth Whippman
So it was interesting. I mean, people I think obviously, you know, when you’re interviewing somebody, they’re probably more biased was telling you what’s what’s right. But yeah, I think dads were hugely important. Like if a boy had a dad who is able to communicate emotions and to to hold and hear his son’s emotions, then that was huge. And it was like actually really rare.

00;30;31;06 – 00;30;54;04
Ruth Whippman
It was very sad how few of the boys had that could do that. Same with, you know, teachers or coaches or like real male figures in their lives generally. So some of them would point to people like that. Also to moms, you know, you think it’s only men that can communicate this voice, but, you know, a lot of them would say that they could talk to their mother or they could talk to, you know, often to women in their lives in the.

00;30;54;09 – 00;31;01;23
Ruth Whippman
And so I think for them, the ones I talked to tended to be more people that they knew in their own lives rather than like celebrities or whatever.

00;31;01;26 – 00;31;22;11
Dr. Mona
Yeah. No, that would make sense. And I think, you know, a lot of we know that a lot of the male figures are important and moms too, and women figures. And that is literally the problem that we’re trying to fix here. Right? I mean, we want to break the cycle. And, you know, when I, when I hear a lot of I’m going to use terminology here, like when I’m raising my son to be more in tune with his feelings.

00;31;22;11 – 00;31;45;08
Dr. Mona
You know, obviously people think that that means that there’s no boundaries, that there’s that this I’m going to raise some sort of PSA y child. And I hate that messaging because I’m like, no, like, this kid is a tough kid, just like my daughter, who’s very tough and like, knows what she wants. And it’s like, it’s like almost like if a girl is, you know, if a girl is sensitive, amazing.

00;31;45;08 – 00;31;59;13
Dr. Mona
If you know, that’s a girl, if a boy sensitive. Oh, what? Like, why are you even sensitive in my, my son is very sensitive. And I love that he’s like me. And then, you know, with women, with girls, a girl can be tough. And that’s awesome. And then a boy who’s tough. Well, that’s your boy. You should be tough.

00;31;59;13 – 00;32;28;19
Dr. Mona
And it’s like all these different stereotypes. But really battling that misconception comes down to parents. You know, we talk about that a lot. And I know your book dives into so many different aspects, but from my niche and being a parent, in the parenting space, how many parents and especially those father figures, how important it is, how they communicate feelings and I’ll be in the community and I have to often bite my tongue and, you know, try not to give advice to strangers of this sort of stereotypes that I see, you know, of, like in my office, too, and in my office I have a little bit more ability to be honest and say,

00;32;28;19 – 00;32;47;22
Dr. Mona
hey, look, I you’re struggling with issues with his behavior and I need to explain why you are because think about how we are talking to your boy. Think about when you tell him not to cry, or that he needs to shut up, or that he shouldn’t be crying. Of course he’s going to channel that into aggression. Of course he’s going to channel that into defiance.

00;32;47;29 – 00;33;01;01
Dr. Mona
And yes, and then I tell them, and then the dad and mom or whoever is like, what the I’m going to raise a pussy kid. I’m like, no, you’re not. I promise you, you’re going to raise a kid who knows boundaries but also knows what emotions are, which every human being needs.

00;33;01;03 – 00;33;22;21
Ruth Whippman
Yeah. And so messy people, humans, as you know, like become tough by being careful. You know, we we build resilience. But through the care that we receive from the adults in our lives. And so yeah. So the problem is the opposite of what it would seem like. But yeah. And I think boys in this moment, particularly feel really sort of shut down from all sides.

00;33;22;21 – 00;33;39;21
Ruth Whippman
It’s, you know, on the one hand they’ve got that kind of old school masculine say, you know, man, don’t show your emotions, toughen up, be, you know, be invulnerable. And on the other hand, I’ve got this a story coming from the left which is like, shut up about your problems. You don’t have any problems, you know. Yes, I privilege.

00;33;39;21 – 00;33;59;21
Ruth Whippman
Yes. So powerful. Yeah. And it’s like they’re feeling shut down from all directions, you know, and as though nobody’s listening to them. And so it sort of makes sense that they kind of like, gravitate off towards somebody who’s telling them, as you said, that they matter, that they care about them, even if it’s in a toxic way. You know, at least it’s something.

00;33;59;23 – 00;34;24;00
Dr. Mona
And, you know, I know we’ve talked about your book, obviously, in the in the last episode and we the politics is just one aspect of this, right, like looking at the trends here. But what do you think that we can do about it? Maybe tying it into politics? How our leaders can kind of approach these conversations to be inclusive on both sides, but also break toxic masculinity from a polit political landscape as well?

00;34;24;02 – 00;34;48;13
Ruth Whippman
Yeah. Well, I think the first thing you know, I mean, I think that there’s a lot that parents can do in that. And I think there’s a lot that all of us can do in the kind of cultural conversations, the way that we talk about it. And then the political thing is another piece of it. I tend to split it up into these three sort of big headlines just as ways to think about it, which are critical thinking, curiosity and care and connection.

00;34;48;15 – 00;35;04;14
Ruth Whippman
So critical thinking is just about having these discussions. You know, I think with girls and women at least, we’ve like pinpointed the issues. We’ve got a vocabulary to talk about it. We know how to talk about it. I think with boys and men we have. So at the beginning of this journey, we don’t even notice, like the inside out thing.

00;35;04;14 – 00;35;31;01
Ruth Whippman
We don’t even notice the things that are absent in the culture that are missing the core messages that boys are getting. So if we can keep talking about it, do the critical thinking to just name the problem, to just like call out where these things are going on. Call out what boys and men are missing out on. Then the curiosity piece, I think, is just about listening to boys and like saying your experience is as valid as anybody else’s.

00;35;31;01 – 00;35;51;04
Ruth Whippman
It’s not trying to reform you or judge you or impose an agenda or make you there’s or stop you being toxic. You know, it’s about just having genuine curiosity about that individual and their experience. And I think boys are feeling like very unheard in this moment. So that kind of empathetic listening, I think is just so important. And then the care and connection.

00;35;51;04 – 00;36;15;17
Ruth Whippman
I write a lot in Boy Mom about how boys in our culture are, like, slightly chronically under nurtured. You know, this messaging about man up can be tough. And, you know, and it starts right from babyhood in the way that we care for boys and girls just slightly differently. And so this lack of nurture is, you know, we learn to empathy and care for other people by receiving that ourselves.

00;36;15;19 – 00;36;29;26
Ruth Whippman
And so I think when, yeah, when they receive more care. So it’s about building the best possible relationship that we can with the actual child that we have, meeting them where they are and showing them that love and nurture.

00;36;29;28 – 00;36;50;24
Dr. Mona
I love it. I love what you said about the listening and curiosity, and that is just such a prime parenting advice, you know, whether we have a boy or a girl. But you’re right. I think sometimes, you know, and I hope that that message comes across to all of you listening in that we are just trying to raise boys who feel connected and and feel connected, feel seen whether they vote, however, they want to vote.

00;36;50;24 – 00;37;20;15
Dr. Mona
I don’t want it to be that they’re not feeling seen and that they’re leaning in very extreme on to one side or the other. And I think, you know, I know, again, understanding politics and where we’re at right now, I hope that the politicians can find more balance in this. You know, I was reading about how the current Biden and the Biden administration had, had basically made reimbursements the same for mental health and physical health, which is actually really huge, because for a long time, physical health was more, you know, something that was more even.

00;37;20;15 – 00;37;40;20
Dr. Mona
I mean, insurances could be better, but like with something that’s more value than mental. And I’ve always felt that they’re equally important. Right. And so I hope that those kind of policies can continue on that. Although maybe there’s more of this masculinity thing that that is something that’s going to benefit males, females, whatever you identify as, because that is something we all need, right?

00;37;40;20 – 00;37;59;09
Dr. Mona
Like we know and you’ve mentioned in your past conversations the suicide rates being higher and also just the depression and the underreported depression rates in men. And I see that as well in my practice. And then if we can make it that, hey, from a political standpoint, we want these resources to be available for you. I just that’s my wish.

00;37;59;13 – 00;38;12;21
Dr. Mona
Whether it’s a Republican in part in, in power or Democrat in power, I just want us to value mental health for boys. Girls, I don’t care equal. Absolutely. And at all, you know, because that is the money issue.

00;38;12;22 – 00;38;15;06
Ruth Whippman
Yeah. I couldn’t agree more. Absolutely.

00;38;15;06 – 00;38;35;29
Dr. Mona
And I hope so. You know, like we said at the beginning, this is not anything more than taking sides on a policy. This is not like anything more than just understanding where this came from. You know, why are these trends happening? And I love this conversation because I think it really dove into, you know, the trends and just understanding how boys are feeling and how we can proceed from here.

00;38;36;01 – 00;38;41;13
Dr. Mona
As parents and, and hopefully policy leaders, if we’re, if we’re listening to this.

00;38;41;16 – 00;38;44;10
Ruth Whippman
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much.

00;38;44;13 – 00;38;52;06
Dr. Mona
Thank you. And where can everyone go? To stay connected. Get your book. You can show that again for all of our sponsors right now.

00;38;52;08 – 00;39;10;12
Ruth Whippman
So, the book is by mom reimagining boyhood in the age of impossible masculinity. It’s a mix of my own story with my own three sons, plus reporting and research. So you can buy this wherever you buy books. And then I’m on Substack. I write Substack called I Blame Society. I host a monthly discussion group about all these issues.

00;39;10;12 – 00;39;26;00
Ruth Whippman
People are welcome to come with any political opinions, any gender, any parenting status. As long as they’re approaching it in good faith. I love to to talk about these issues, and I’m on Instagram and social media as at risk women. My full name to piece.

00;39;26;00 – 00;39;42;22
Dr. Mona
So perfect. I am linking all of that. Boy, mom is on my list of books. I feel like there’s all these amazing books, but it is on number two after I read the first one that’s in front of it. And I’m just so excited. You inspired me to read the book more meaning having these conversations with you.

00;39;42;24 – 00;40;02;04
Dr. Mona
And I hope my listeners do the same. So many people picked up your book after the last conversation, and I hope this conversation also inspires them to do the same. Because I I’ve said this before, I’m a fan girl. I love the information that you provide and also just the movement you’re trying to create in a very positive way to raise amazing boys in this world.

00;40;02;04 – 00;40;03;16
Dr. Mona
And I think that’s phenomenal.

00;40;03;18 – 00;40;07;18
Ruth Whippman
Thank you so much. It’s been so great talking with you again.

00;40;07;21 – 00;40;36;24
Dr. Mona
Wow, what a conversation. Masculinity isn’t just about personal identity. It’s deeply woven into how we engage with politics, culture, and even how we see ourselves in society today. We explore just how much the narratives we create and consume impact not only individuals, but also entire communities and the policies that shape our world. As parents, we have such an important role in this by teaching emotional intelligence, challenging harmful stereotypes, and fostering empathy, we can raise a generation that values diversity, compassion, and inclusion.

00;40;36;26 – 00;41;05;01
Dr. Mona
It’s not just about understanding masculinity, it’s about reimagining it for a better future for everyone, including our boys. So here’s my takeaway challenging traditional ideas of masculinity isn’t just a personal journey. It’s a collective responsibility. And together we can help create a more thoughtful and inclusive world. Thank you so much for tuning in today. If this conversation made you think, which I know it did, inspired you, which I know it will, or just gave you a new perspective, share it with someone who would love it too.

00;41;05;04 – 00;41;19;29
Dr. Mona
And hey, don’t forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Stay connected with at Ruth Whitman, route Shipman and myself on our socials. Tag us and let’s keep this dialog going. Have a wonderful week and talk to you next time.