On this episode I welcome Dr. Shelby Harris, Clinical Psychologist, Board Certified Behavioral Sleep Medicine Doctor and author. Find her on Instagram as @sleepdocshelby.

We discuss the following:

• What motherhood insomnia is and why it happens
• Tired but wired!
• Non-medicated ways to combat insomnia
• Signs it’s time to see a specialist and types of medication
• So much more

Visit Dr. Shelby at  www.drshelbyharris.com and purchase her book, The Women’s Guide To Overcoming Insomnia by Dr. Shelby Harris  here.

00;00;08;27 – 00;00;29;02

Dr. Mona

Welcome to this episode. I am talking to Doctor Shelby Harris about a topic that I think so many of us moms can resonate with, which is motherhood insomnia. Doctor Shelby Harris is a clinical psychologist, board certified behavioral sleep medicine doctor, and author. Thank you so much for joining me today.

 

00;00;29;04 – 00;00;32;08

Dr. Shelby Harris

Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here and talk.

 

00;00;32;11 – 00;00;43;02

Dr. Mona

So we are talking about motherhood, insomnia, which is a real thing, a real deal, and something that I think more moms should know about. But first, tell me more about yourself and what you do.

 

00;00;43;04 – 00;01;06;04

Dr. Shelby Harris

So I am a clinical psychologist by training. So that means that for me, I do cognitive behavior therapy for anxiety and depression for teens and adults. But my main area is specialties and sleep medicine. So I used to run the behavioral sleep medicine lab at Montefiore in New York City. And now I’m in private practice. So I treat patients with insomnia, trouble with compliance for their sleep apnea nightmares, sleepwalking.

 

00;01;06;04 – 00;01;13;28

Dr. Shelby Harris

And I do it all using evidence based treatment approaches that don’t use medication. And I work alongside MDS and sleep medicine all the time.

 

00;01;14;00 – 00;01;35;12

Dr. Mona

Oh, I love it. I love that we’re going to talk about things that, you know, I’m all about medicine if it’s needed, but I love non-medical interventions as well. That is my go to as a pediatrician. Meaning I know medicines are there, I know they’re fantastic and they do so much. But I’m a D.O. and also just my philosophy on medicine has always been, what can we do before leaning on medicines?

 

00;01;35;12 – 00;01;47;07

Dr. Mona

If we need that? So I’m just so glad we found each other. And so yeah, thank you so much. So first of all, what is exactly motherhood? Insomnia? Is there a definition to it? How would you describe it to people who are listening today?

 

00;01;47;09 – 00;02;09;01

Dr. Shelby Harris

I mean, I wouldn’t say it’s actually a clinical thing that we would say, but when we talk about insomnia, what it is, it’s something that happens, especially for women. It happens at multiple stages throughout the lifespan. And one of the big times that I see it, as well as menopause and perimenopause, is in the postpartum phase. And when people have kids at home and what that means is it’s are you having trouble sleeping three or more days a week?

 

00;02;09;01 – 00;02;25;17

Dr. Shelby Harris

So trouble falling asleep, staying asleep. You awaken to early. The quality of your sleep or something about it is bothersome to you, and we find that that happens a lot. And if that’s happening for weeks and weeks on end, at least a few months, you might want to talk with someone about having insomnia. And the motherhood aspect is usually just after having kids.

 

00;02;25;24 – 00;02;30;06

Dr. Shelby Harris

It just starts up or it continues going and gets worse as time goes on.

 

00;02;30;08 – 00;02;45;27

Dr. Mona

And why does it happen in terms of is it have to do with obviously our children not being able to sleep? Because I know in certain situations where I have moms who have a baby who is sleeping well, meaning the baby is not the issue, it’s the mom that just can’t sleep. Like, do we know why it happens?

 

00;02;45;27 – 00;02;51;23

Dr. Mona

Is it hormone related? Is it like resources or societal? Like what exactly is the etiology behind it?

 

00;02;51;28 – 00;03;11;16

Dr. Shelby Harris

It really does vary, but what I hear the most often is that women start often having sleep problems when they’re pregnant. I mean, that’s super. I know I didn’t sleep all night restless legs. Yeah, I mean vivid dreams. And then the baby comes. And oftentimes, you know, babies are meant they wake up a lot at night. Newborns that stage that’s part of it.

 

00;03;11;18 – 00;03;37;14

Dr. Shelby Harris

And a lot of women more so than men. Interestingly, we don’t have a lot of research on it, but it’s almost like a conditioned thing. So if you for some people, they have their monitors on really bad or they’re always to sleep and you keep one ear open just to listen for your baby, if your baby’s starting to wake up and you’ve trained yourself essentially to have lighter sleep because you’re always on alert, and once your baby starts sleeping better, then you still are always on alert, and it’s hard to sometimes actually turn your brain off.

 

00;03;37;14 – 00;03;52;14

Dr. Shelby Harris

So sometimes it could be people having trouble falling asleep because they have a million things on their mind, whatever that might be. Other times that you might have heard a noise or something, and then your brain is super alert and you have trouble going back to sleep. And it’s the things that we start to do, like going on our phone, doing other things.

 

00;03;52;14 – 00;03;58;20

Dr. Shelby Harris

And am I? Those are all the things that continue to maintain the problem, and then it just becomes a longer term problem overall.

 

00;03;58;22 – 00;04;15;11

Dr. Mona

Yeah. I mean, you brought up a great point where, you know, that situation or that wanting to check the monitor, you know, that’s something that even when my son finally slept through the night, right. Meaning we did sleep training for him. Even when he did that, I actually developed more sleep anxiety because I was like, hey, is he okay?

 

00;04;15;11 – 00;04;36;23

Dr. Mona

Why is he not waking up? Obviously, I trained him. I know he’s sleeping, but it was this weird alternative that then my sleep got worse for a little bit and I’m very open about this. I actually saw a therapist ordering that time frame for my, you know, traumatic birth and so many other things. And she actually recommended for our situation, turning off the monitor like, she’s like, you know, you have a small enough apartment that you can hear him if he needs you.

 

00;04;36;23 – 00;04;51;28

Dr. Mona

Like you don’t need to have the monitor on. Because what was happening is this fixation of me hearing a sound phantom cries, which is a real thing. Also, people just hear their baby cry when they’re not. And then I would look at the monitor on my phone. It was a ring timer and he was be fine. And I’m like, wait, what am I doing?

 

00;04;51;28 – 00;05;05;21

Dr. Mona

And it was that vicious cycle of I’m hearing something or I’m not. And even if I am hearing it, something, he’s allowed to move around in his sleep like we do. Right? So it’s so fascinating to me. And I think people don’t realize that it is a thing that happened.

 

00;05;05;23 – 00;05;26;23

Dr. Shelby Harris

And also, you know, kids and babies especially are noisy sleepers. Yes, that is normal. And I think the wonderful thing about monitors nowadays is you can customize the level of alert you kind of want. So, you know, like the all those monitors on them for how they’re sleeping on the trackers and all the noise. Sometimes it’s just turn the monitor off, turn the volume down.

 

00;05;26;29 – 00;05;27;10

Dr. Mona

Yeah.

 

00;05;27;15 – 00;05;45;11

Dr. Shelby Harris

These things can help with your anxiety as well. So those are all customizable things that I work with new moms and parents on all the time, because it really does awaken you. And then once you’re awake and you’re startled away, you can’t fall asleep. Then you go down the rabbit hole and other things and do other things at all, just like I said, reinforces it.

 

00;05;45;18 – 00;05;59;08

Dr. Mona

Yeah. I mean, I’m going to be honest. Like, I have a blog and I look at my blog when like people are on my blog, that this morning I looked and in the middle of the night, how many people are coming to my blog? And I’m like, guys, don’t go to my blog in the middle of the night because I know you’re in a rabbit hole in the middle of the night.

 

00;05;59;08 – 00;06;15;28

Dr. Mona

I know it like you shouldn’t be on your phone, which I know we’ll talk about, but it’s just like I get it that it’s primed in us. You know, I even talk to my husband about it. For right now, we’re talking about motherhood. But even for everyone, we tend to go to distractions when we can’t sleep, which in turn actually cause us to not be able to sleep more.

 

00;06;16;00 – 00;06;29;16

Dr. Mona

So, you know, one of the things that I just find so fascinating is it’s not really a joke, but it’s like I did a real about it. And I just think it’s funny is how we are so tired all day as moms, right? I think everyone can attest to the fact that you wake up and you’re just tired, tired, tired, tired.

 

00;06;29;22 – 00;06;50;12

Dr. Mona

You want to take a nap, you want to go to bed, and then when it’s time to lay down, to go to sleep, you can’t sleep. Why does this. I mean, I’m sure you’ve heard this. Why does this happen? I think I understand, but some psychology behind. Why are we just so, so tired all day? And then when it’s finally time to get that sleep that we so desperately need, we can’t shut our minds off and go to bed?

 

00;06;50;15 – 00;07;10;12

Dr. Shelby Harris

Well, I always say the phenomenon I say is tired but wired right. So when you get into bed at night, a lot of times as new parents and just parents in general, or just people living in the society that we have nowadays is that we’re going, going, going as parents. And oftentimes we don’t really allow ourselves the time to decompress our brains and put an end to the day.

 

00;07;10;15 – 00;07;32;11

Dr. Shelby Harris

And for a lot of parents especially, there’s this whole concept of mom, Sonia or revenge bedtime procrastination. And that is I’m trying like people are trying to capture some of the night for themselves, but it’s often doing things that are also sleep incompatible behaviors. So things like watching Netflix, binge watching shows, doing all the things that you normally don’t have time to do during the day, which are wonderful.

 

00;07;32;11 – 00;07;47;25

Dr. Shelby Harris

And I want people to make space for that stuff. But you’re also not making space to fully decompress without bright lights, to really put an end to the day mentally, to be able to help yourself go to sleep. And then the other thing that is a big problem is that we also have a million things to do, that we don’t prioritize what we have to do.

 

00;07;47;25 – 00;08;00;18

Dr. Shelby Harris

So like a bed at night, you still have all the things kind of floating on your head that you have to do tomorrow or the night, and we’re not kind of saying, well, what has to get done? What could get done, what can I push to the side? So at least you have a plan for the next day to kind of put your brain to bed.

 

00;08;00;21 – 00;08;15;00

Dr. Mona

Yes. And I mean, these are all the things that we talk to our children about adolescent patients, about in my office. Right. And so when I have an adolescent come in my office and they’re like having trouble sleeping, I’m like, you know, I’m about to preach to the choir, I’m pretty sure. But I also I need to take my own advice.

 

00;08;15;00 – 00;08;33;05

Dr. Mona

And I’m giving you right now with all the things about I’m sure we’ll go into, you know, especially what you just mentioned about the exactly the prioritizing. And I think every mother can attest that there is a constant list of things that probably need to be done, but do they really need to be done at that point? Can we push it off?

 

00;08;33;05 – 00;08;47;23

Dr. Mona

Can we like prayer? Like, I really am big on prioritizing big picture and really going by that. That way I’m not like, oh my gosh, I didn’t do this. Now I have my brain is telling me I have to get up and put that away. No, you don’t really need to get up right now. You need to be focusing on weighing down and, resting your brain.

 

00;08;47;29 – 00;08;50;12

Dr. Mona

Wow. I’m so. You already got it. Yeah. Go ahead.

 

00;08;50;15 – 00;09;02;28

Dr. Shelby Harris

The other thing I can say is, like the example I give all the time I know I did in my book is that when I had kids, I had to clean my kitchen up. I did everything by the time I went to bed, because for some reason it was like a nice, neat bow in my head. But I really saw that.

 

00;09;02;28 – 00;09;15;24

Dr. Shelby Harris

It made me more resentful because then I was losing out on time to do other things. And yeah, I mean, just like something simple like that, you do all the dishes need to be done right now or cannot wait until the morning. Is it enhancing my life? I love that you said big picture. The dishes are not big picture.

 

00;09;15;25 – 00;09;24;18

Dr. Shelby Harris

They can wait until the next day. So it’s about right about all that stuff. What has to get done, what can so that you don’t feel resent when you’re going to bed at night as well?

 

00;09;24;20 – 00;09;40;03

Dr. Mona

Oh man. And it’s also ingrained on us from childhood. I mean, my mom, you know, you have to do the dishes before you go to bed. I mean, do we really have to do the dishes before we go to bed like that? You know, I mean, there’s certain things that our parents tell us, and then you’re like, wait, why do I have to have a clean sink before bed?

 

00;09;40;06 – 00;09;59;21

Dr. Mona

There’s nothing going to happen to those dishes or, you know, maybe make it easier to put in the dishwasher or, you know, there’s so many ways to make our lives easier. And sometimes we put so much expectation, and that expectation keeps us up at night. And I think that’s, like you said, like a vicious cycle. And again, I love talking to you because we are going to go over some non medicated ways to combat this.

 

00;09;59;21 – 00;10;10;24

Dr. Mona

I understand there is sometimes where medication may be needed, which like I said, I am totally understanding of that. But what are some ways that we can combat this? I know you’ve already mentioned a few things, but I’m kind of putting it up in a summary.

 

00;10;10;27 – 00;10;36;19

Dr. Shelby Harris

So if you’re thinking about it as a tiered approach, right. So we always think when people are having occasional nights here and there of poor sleep, or they’re just wanting to maybe make sleep a little bit more priority in their lives, that’s when the sleep hygiene stuff is really important. So making sure you wind down, making sure you’re not looking at your phone in the middle of night, you’re using dim light like a lot of people who are going to take care of their kids in the middle of night, and then they’re like, on their phone in the middle of night in social media, and then they try to go back to sleep and they

 

00;10;36;19 – 00;10;55;15

Dr. Shelby Harris

can’t sleep. So really and then consistency is another big thing. So trying to be it’s hard to do as a parent, but be as consistent with your bedtime and your wake time as possible. And if you have other things that are awakening you, such as kids coming in, maybe you have to work on their sleep. So sometimes your own insomnia becomes having to treat your child.

 

00;10;55;15 – 00;11;23;16

Dr. Shelby Harris

Sleep issues. Yeah, that you can prioritize your own sleep better. I’m a big fan of journaling, getting things out of your brain. Meditation is another really big thing. But if those things are not enough, then and it’s that more like three or more nights a week of poor sleep, multiple days a week for multiple months, and then that’s when something called CBT or cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia is extremely effective and considered the gold standard treatment for insomnia across the board, for all ages, for people with insomnia.

 

00;11;23;16 – 00;11;43;24

Dr. Shelby Harris

And what that is, is it’s sleep hygiene, like we were just talking about, but also sometimes I actually have patients spend a little less time in bed, so they’re tired when they get in the bed, but they’re also very sleepy. So there’s not just that like tired but active brain. We try to actually make them more sleepy for bedtime, and we change some of the things they’re doing in bed, like not laying there on their phone, not tossing and turning.

 

00;11;43;24 – 00;11;57;13

Dr. Shelby Harris

And we also work on people’s worries about sleep. A lot of times, like if I don’t sleep tonight, I won’t be able to do x, y, z tomorrow. Yes, with a lot of the cognitive part, because people put a lot of, focus and emphasis on what not sleeping is going to do, and then it makes you more and.

 

00;11;57;15 – 00;11;59;27

Dr. Mona

Then you can’t sleep. Yep. Yeah.

 

00;11;59;29 – 00;12;22;22

Dr. Shelby Harris

Well, I mean that’s short term treatment. I mean I’ve had some patients 2 or 3 sessions who are getting better and it can take longer 12 sessions usually on kind of max area. But it’s a very effective treatment. And you can find people like myself at the Society Behavioral Medicine, where you want to really try and find someone who is board certified or at least trained for some of these board-certified who’s doing it and knows what they’re dealing with.

 

00;12;22;29 – 00;12;34;23

Dr. Shelby Harris

And then if that’s not enough, then we start going into other approaches such as medications, other stuff like that. But really CBT for insomnia, if you’re struggling, should be the first line treatment that most people should try.

 

00;12;34;26 – 00;12;51;07

Dr. Mona

That’s amazing, and I love that you’re talking about CBT. I mean, CBT in general is used for in many different anxiety conditions. It’s something I had looked into after birth trauma as well. And I never did it because I felt in a good place. But now that I’m starting to try for another baby, I’m considering for trauma related things.

 

00;12;51;07 – 00;13;05;25

Dr. Mona

And, you know, thinking about how important it is, I think we should maybe even do a whole other episode on what CBT exactly. Yeah, because I think it is something that a lot of mothers, not just mothers, fathers to anyone, would benefit from. And so, yes, I think that’s so great. And like I said, some non medicated ways.

 

00;13;06;01 – 00;13;32;20

Dr. Mona

But you know again going back to all of this, it’s like we talk about that quote unquote sleep hygiene. You know you said you know journaling before bed consistent bedtime. Don’t use the phone in the middle of the night prioritizing. It’s like clearing that mind. And it’s just it’s so interesting to me. And I love having you on talking about this as a mother, but how it relates to the child, too, like, I’m not trying to put pressure on parents to get their sleep together, but it’s also going to be a good example we set for our children.

 

00;13;32;20 – 00;13;52;10

Dr. Mona

You know, sleep is something that I think is vital to everything that we do. I mean, everyone keeps asking me like, why I’m so big on sleep training so you don’t have to sleep train. But I want to create healthy sleep habits for our children. And in order to do that, especially our older children who are very aware of what we’re doing, is us creating similar habits as well.

 

00;13;52;10 – 00;13;59;19

Dr. Mona

You know, and I love your idea of the consistent bedtime for us. It’s what we do for our children, too, right? It actually makes sense so that.

 

00;13;59;19 – 00;14;19;11

Dr. Shelby Harris

You’re I see. Yeah. Time. Why is it that we sometimes are so hyper focused on our kids bedtime life? And what age do we all of a sudden outgrow it? Why is it that as adults, our bodies don’t have a clock that responds to light and dark and have a circadian rhythm? Like, it’s really silly to me that we just kind of ignore all that stuff as we become adults.

 

00;14;19;14 – 00;14;35;29

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And I mean, I look at my son’s bedtime routine and I think about how nice it is, right? Like he gets to take a bath and then he, he read a book and it’s in dim lighting and I’m like, no wonder he sleeps like an angel. Like it’s so relaxing. And I mean, and so I mean, like you said, like when I realized, like, wait, my sleep is getting out of whack.

 

00;14;35;29 – 00;15;03;20

Dr. Mona

And I’ve gone through phases, like of seasons, like you said, like, you know, where it’s like, good, but all of a sudden it’s like something’s not right. And I go back to these tips that we talk about, and it’s taking a warm shower, putting on Native American flute music, writing in my journal, and putting my phone on, airplane mode at 11 p.m. so that from 11 p.m. to 730 in the morning, I can’t check my phone because everything’s blocked out except the ring camera in case there’s an emergency override.

 

00;15;03;20 – 00;15;20;09

Dr. Shelby Harris

Yeah, obviously. Get your phone out of the room or put it up. Yes, yes. One clock like so. You’re not tempted to be on your phone in the middle of night? You know, there are simple little tricks that you can try that are really important to really try and keep that darkness, not the you don’t want stimulation to night, just like with a kid, right?

 

00;15;20;11 – 00;15;20;28

Dr. Mona

Yeah.

 

00;15;21;00 – 00;15;35;12

Dr. Shelby Harris

And like we said, sleep hygiene is perfect for a lot of people. But if that’s not enough, I don’t want people also just throwing in the towel and saying, my sleep is hopeless. There’s nothing I can do. That’s when you can talk to a specialist who can tailor it even more and do more of the kind of behavior therapy stuff, and then you can.

 

00;15;35;17 – 00;15;43;06

Dr. Shelby Harris

There are so many different options out there that sleep hygiene is wonderful and a great place to start, but it’s not the only thing that we can do without medication.

 

00;15;43;08 – 00;15;52;28

Dr. Mona

And so kind of using that as the next segue. What types of medicines are usually used? If, you know, we’ve done the CBT or done other things and maybe a mother needs more help.

 

00;15;53;00 – 00;16;08;00

Dr. Shelby Harris

It really does vary and it varies on this prescriber too. So I don’t prescribe myself, but I work with prescribers all the time. But you know, there are so many different meds out there. So there’s the more typical ones that we hear about all the time, like Ambien, Lunesta, Sonata. Those are those are ones that work right before you go to bed.

 

00;16;08;00 – 00;16;25;23

Dr. Shelby Harris

You take it and you go to sleep. But there’s also not a like I keep saying, one size fits all approach. Some patients that I work with, they don’t do anything. For others it works really well. Sometimes we use antidepressants off label and sometimes we use like low, low dose antidepressants that are actually sedating a little bit. So we use that in different ways.

 

00;16;25;23 – 00;16;31;10

Dr. Shelby Harris

So there’s a lot of different options out there. It doesn’t have to just be Ambien or nothing.

 

00;16;31;12 – 00;16;40;23

Dr. Mona

And I think one of the questions people always ask is if they’re pregnant, that obviously the clinician that they talk to will discuss the safety of these medicines in pregnancy and breastfeeding.

 

00;16;40;25 – 00;16;57;05

Dr. Shelby Harris

Yes, for sure. Definitely. I’ve had a number of patients who have been on safely been on certain medications. But like I said, you know, that’s why CBT for insomnia exists. So if you have a clinician and you’re struggling with your sleep, but no one’s even had a discussion about trying do without meds, then you should really look into CBT for insomnia.

 

00;16;57;05 – 00;17;05;14

Dr. Shelby Harris

But if that’s not enough or it’s not working, then discussion and medications with your clinician is definitely valid and it does help some people sleep a lot better.

 

00;17;05;16 – 00;17;30;17

Dr. Mona

That is great to know. And I again, I just love this conversation because it is so important. Like Shelby, you know I just feel like I said, I just feel like sleep is so vital for so much of what we do. And I know you know that because you are a sleep specialist. But like, from a physician standpoint, also like the immune system, how we can parent like I’m a better parent for my son when I get quality sleep, like, you see, you know it, right?

 

00;17;30;17 – 00;17;43;07

Dr. Mona

If you’re sleep deprived, you know, I feel sometimes moms tell me, like I slept, but I don’t feel rested, you know, like I went to sleep, but I don’t feel rested. And I think that also kind of has to do with all the things that you’re mentioning, right? That you’re not getting the quality of sleep. Is that something?

 

00;17;43;07 – 00;17;51;04

Dr. Shelby Harris

It’s definitely it’s quality. That’s quality. So that could be affected by a million things as well as quantity. So it could be your stress.

 

00;17;51;04 – 00;17;52;03

Dr. Mona

Levels.

 

00;17;52;05 – 00;18;13;27

Dr. Shelby Harris

And anxiety, hormonal things. Another thing we see a lot that people don’t recognize is sleep apnea. So any snoring. Yeah the higher rates of sleep apnea women who are pregnant. And that can definitely affect your even if you’re sleeping a lot, you might just not feel like your sleep is restored. So if you are snoring or you’re just feeling like you’re dragging, not just like a day in here and there, that’s the thing is, like, we’re human.

 

00;18;13;27 – 00;18;23;06

Dr. Shelby Harris

We have days where we’re tired. I sleep well many nights. I’m still tired. Some days it’s about the kind of consistency. If you’re really not feeling your sleep is restorative, definitely talk with your doctor about it.

 

00;18;23;09 – 00;18;39;28

Dr. Mona

Oh, this is so great. I hope this really empowers so many people. Not I know it’s we’re talking about motherhood insomnia, but I think this will help so many people with insomnia, even if they’re not a mother. You know, obviously, but, no, these are just such great tips. What would be your final, like message for everyone listening today.

 

00;18;40;01 – 00;18;56;13

Dr. Shelby Harris

I would say, is that you don’t suffer in silence no matter what age you are. If you’re a new mom, if you have kids, like, the thing is to sleep, you have to have your oxygen mask on first to help out. Yeah. So sleep is really important. And even if you’re trying to make it a priority, you’re just not sleeping well.

 

00;18;56;16 – 00;19;11;05

Dr. Shelby Harris

Don’t throw in the towel. Talk to your doctor about it. And if your doctor says to you, it’s part of being a new parent, just kind of go with it. Maybe talk to someone else is more of a sleep specialist who could help you, because we have lots of treatments out there to help you. And it’s not about sleeping perfect every night.

 

00;19;11;05 – 00;19;27;29

Dr. Shelby Harris

It’s not that at all. It’s about using your life when you can get more sleep and better quality sleep, and having someone help you to do it more routinely. So there are a lot of things out there that we can do to sleep better so that you can be better, feel better, and just be better all over your life.

 

00;19;28;01 – 00;19;40;07

Dr. Mona

The last time it was perfect in terms of it being like, there’s going to be there’s going to be one offs. And I think we forget sometimes. Yeah, of course the one offs are not what we’re concerned about. I’m concerned when it’s like a steady state of issues. It’s so similar to how we talk about children. Right.

 

00;19;40;07 – 00;19;55;17

Dr. Mona

Like children are going to have these random regressions or random things. But if it’s now becoming night after night, week after week and you’re feeling like something’s off, don’t suffer in silence, parents. Oh, and and you, And you should have perfectly like if someone needs.

 

00;19;55;19 – 00;19;56;28

Dr. Shelby Harris

Yeah. Three day. Yeah.

 

00;19;56;28 – 00;19;57;13

Dr. Mona

It’s like, I.

 

00;19;57;13 – 00;20;14;29

Dr. Shelby Harris

Love that we at least multiple weeks for at least three months. Then we need to have a talk. I don’t sleep well perfectly every night. I have a night here and there every week, and that’s totally normal. So it’s and I think online can give people that pressure that they have to sleep perfect every night too, and make them feel like they’re not achieving something that’s not helpful either.

 

00;20;15;04 – 00;20;20;02

Dr. Shelby Harris

So really think if it’s a chronic issue, talk to your doctor to see if you can do something about it.

 

00;20;20;05 – 00;20;37;20

Dr. Mona

And I yeah, I completely resonate so much with this. And again, I can’t wait to keep telling my adolescent patients. A lot of them have insomnia. A lot of them, I understand, have some degree of anxiety and depression as well associated with all of it. But it’s just going back to these basics and getting people the resources.

 

00;20;37;20 – 00;20;56;01

Dr. Mona

And, you know, one thing that does frustrate me so much and I think social media has a role, but I also think the medical system and, researchers have a role to that. Parents just feel like if someone says, hey, this is what it is, like you said, or it’s normal, quote unquote, that this is just a phase that they feel like, well, then I don’t have resources.

 

00;20;56;01 – 00;21;15;13

Dr. Mona

It’s almost like when a parent tells me, oh, my child, the picky eater, they’ll go out of it. I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, listen, what you do in this interim, in this picky eating phase is vital. Like, I don’t want us to just think that there’s no option for education or helping. There always is a way that we can say, hey, this is something that’s normal and a lot of moms go through it.

 

00;21;15;15 – 00;21;29;06

Dr. Mona

But hey, guess what? There are ways that we can help you so that you don’t have to suffer in silence, or your child or, you know, wherever. Oh, I love this. Where can people find you, your resources? And I know you wrote a book. Tell me more about all of that.

 

00;21;29;13 – 00;21;47;28

Dr. Shelby Harris

So people can find me. I, started last year. I started an Instagram site to actually talk Shelby. So I do a lot of adult insomnia, but I also work with babies and kids too. So I post stuff about kids sleep, and I do a lot of adolescent work there as well. So you find that sweet talk shop, you can also go to my website which is Dr. like doctor doctor Shelby harris.com.

 

00;21;47;28 – 00;22;02;14

Dr. Shelby Harris

So Dr.. Shelby com and also my book that came out in 2019 The Women’s Guide to Overcoming Insomnia. Get it to sleep without relying on medication and that love it easily on Amazon many different sites. It’s pretty well well available nowadays.

 

00;22;02;20 – 00;22;17;14

Dr. Mona

Well I will make sure to link that both as well as your Instagram as well as your website, which by the way, I love your website. It is a wealth of information and also the, you know, the media events that you’ve done. I, you know, before our call, I wanted to make sure that I researched my guests.

 

00;22;17;14 – 00;22;25;01

Dr. Mona

And so it was just so awesome to see how much you’re doing to help moms and help kids, too. So thank you so much for joining us today.

 

00;22;25;03 – 00;22;32;19

Dr. Shelby Harris

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I’m so glad that you’re talking about sleep so much more. It’s really lovely to see people really addressing it more and more nowadays.

 

00;22;32;24 – 00;22;44;25

Dr. Mona

Yes, and I know this is not going to be the last time I have you on because like I said, I would love to talk about CBT, other common topics that I know you deal with so much in practice, so this won’t be the last time, but it definitely was a great first conversation. So thanks again.

 

00;22;45;01 – 00;22;47;13

Dr. Shelby Harris

Thank you. I’m so excited to talk with you.

 

00;22;47;14 – 00;23;03;07

Dr. Mona

Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review, share this episode with a friend, share it on your social media. Make sure to follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram and subscribe to my YouTube channel. PedsDocTalk TV. We’ll talk to you soon.