Have you ever entered a medical environment feeling like your voice was completely secondary to the fast-moving machines and rigid hospital policies around you? It is a vulnerable position that leaves far too many birthing parents carrying psychological scars, but what if knowing the right language ahead of time is the ultimate shield against a traumatic birth?

In this episode, I sit down with board-certified Ob-Gyn and author Dr. Jennifer Lincoln to demystify the intense world of labor, delivery, and postpartum recovery. Dr. Lincoln discusses why true informed consent requires deep clinical communication, provides practical tips on how to build a flexible birth preference sheet, and fearlessly tackles the complex systemic hospital policies that families are rarely warned about.

• Writing the Legacy: What drove Dr. Lincoln to write a comprehensive, doctor-backed guide dedicated entirely to the raw realities of giving birth.

• The Hidden Trauma Metric: Why up to half of birthing people experience psychological birth trauma and how clinical dismissal fuels it.

• Birth Plans vs. Birth Preferences: Why shifting your terminology can protect your mental health and set you up for empowered choice in any delivery scenario.

• The Corporate Blindspots of Delivery: How hidden out-of-network insurance bills can strike you even when you deliver at an in-network hospital.

• Why Hospital Ideology Matters: The quiet systemic impact of a hospital’s religious affiliation on your personal birth control options during a C-section.

• The Candy Wrapper Analogy: Why the current healthcare system abandons moms immediately after birth and the 3 things you must know before being discharged.

• Normalizing the Unspoken: A refreshing, unfiltered look at bodily functions in the delivery room and a vital resource for navigating the heaviest pregnancy outcomes.

Connect with Dr. Jen Lincoln on Instagram @drjenniferlincoln, visit her site d⁠rjenniferlincoln.com⁠ and buy her new book: The Birth Book ⁠https://go.shopmy.us/p-76800588⁠ (paid link)

00:00 – Introduction to the Episode and Guest

02:42 – The “Labor of Love”: Publishing a Book

05:35 – The Role of Social Media in Medical Education

07:00 – Why Focus on Labor and Postpartum?

10:40 – True Informed Consent in the Delivery Room

14:53 – The Impact of Feeling Heard vs. Dismissed

20:04 – Birth “Preferences” vs. Birth “Plans”

24:08 – Navigating Hidden Hospital Policies

30:41 – The Reality of Out-of-Network Medical Bills

33:00 – Three Crucial Postpartum Realities

39:42 – How to Advocate for Yourself in a Medical Setting

44:25 – Discussing Stillbirth and Delivery Fears

46:47 – Finding Joy and Setting Boundaries

48:56 – Episode Outro and Final Reflections

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00;00;00;04 – 00;00;24;29

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Can you do? Informed consent. True informed consent. When you’re pushing and you’re unmedicated and all of a sudden your baby’s heart tones are down and I’m talking to you about a vacuum birth. It’s so much easier to do it. Well before that and to talk about the hey, this could happen, here’s what’s going on. And it’s why in my book I include checklists of things to ask about your doctor, your midwife, if you’re thinking about a home birth, what to ask that midwife, what’s available at your hospital.

 

00;00;24;29 – 00;00;41;04

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And then I also include what, you know, a birth plan. I call it birth preference is a template. It’s in the book and you can also download it on my website. You’re going to be more informed, you’re going to be able to ask questions, and there’s less likely that you’re going to be traumatized.

 

00;00;41;07 – 00;00;58;01

Dr. Mona

Hello. Hello, doctor. Mona here. And welcome back to the PedsDocTalk podcast. Before we dive in, thank you for being here week after week. The show grows because you keep showing up for it. And I do not take that for granted. And we have our Wednesday episodes, which you’re listening to right now. Or maybe you’re listening to it on another day

 

00;00;58;07 – 00;01;21;05

Dr. Mona

We have our follow up episodes on Monday, but get ready for a new series coming this fall. I promise you will not want to miss it, so make sure that you’re subscribed. Okay, onto the now this episode. Have you ever left a doctor’s appointment feeling like you never actually got to ask your real questions? Me have you ever been in the middle of labor, scared and in pain and felt like nobody was listening to what you needed?

 

00;01;21;07 – 00;01;43;29

Dr. Mona

Me? Have you ever wondered what those first six weeks after birth are actually supposed to look like? Because nobody prepared you for it? Also me. Today’s guest is Doctor Jennifer Lincoln. She’s a board certified ob gyn, an OB hospitalist in Oregon, president of the Society of OB gyn hospitalist, an author, and a social media force with millions of followers educating people about their bodies.

 

00;01;44;01 – 00;02;08;24

Dr. Mona

Her brand new book, The Birth Book, came out this year, and it is entirely dedicated to labor delivery and postpartum recovery and advocacy. The parts of this journey that so often get skipped over. We are talking about informed choice in the delivery room, how to build birth preferences instead of a rigid plan. What nobody tells you about postpartum recovery, and how to advocate for yourself when you feel dismissed.

 

00;02;08;26 – 00;02;36;17

Dr. Mona

If you have ever felt unheard in a medical setting, I’m raising my hand right now or we’re scared to speak up during one of the most vulnerable moments of your life, you are not alone and this episode is for you. So stick around and if this episode helps you, subscribe, download and share it on social. Share with a friend who may not know they need it and tag us at the PedsDocTalk podcast, PedsDocTalk and tag Doctor Lincoln at Doctor Dr. Jennifer Lincoln so more people can find this conversation.

 

00;02;36;24 – 00;02;42;21

Dr. Mona

Let’s get into it.

 

00;02;42;24 – 00;02;44;29

Dr. Mona

Thanks for being here. I’m so excited for us to connect.

 

00;02;45;00 – 00;02;49;28

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Say, Mona, thank you for having me. I bet you are doing you are. You are pumping it up. That book. I love.

 

00;02;49;28 – 00;02;50;20

Dr. Mona

It.

 

00;02;50;22 – 00;02;52;13

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Crier. That’s it. You’re on my team now.

 

00;02;52;13 – 00;03;10;21

Dr. Mona

Yeah. If you’re not watching this on the YouTube channel, I’m like, doing, you know, like what’s called overhead presses, overhead presses with her book. Listen, I know how much goes into writing a book because I’m writing a book right now, and I’ve always known that before. So congratulations are in order for getting this physical copy to people now, like, how.

 

00;03;10;21 – 00;03;29;10

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Does I know what I it feels amazing. It is. Yeah. It’s, it’s, you know, we make the jokes like it was the labor of love. No, but it really was. And so I’m filming. So I’m in Portland, Oregon, but I’m filming in New York, which is where I grew up. And yesterday I went to my childhood public library that I have spent thousands of hours at.

 

00;03;29;12 – 00;03;46;16

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And I found it on the shelves. And then I went to the children’s librarian area because it was all redone. But like the children’s area still looks the same. So I brought all these flashbacks and I start tearing up and I go to the library. I was like, I just want you to know that what you do matters, because I used to read books and now there’s one of the shelf.

 

00;03;46;16 – 00;03;51;26

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And she was probably like, I don’t know if she was like, this is so sweet. Or she’s like, do we call security? But I said, you know.

 

00;03;51;26 – 00;03;52;14

Dr. Mona

I promise.

 

00;03;52;22 – 00;04;13;12

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Yeah, this is true. But it was just like full circle at I, you know, you said, like, if it’s a dream to write a book to see your name and it’s not because it’s like, oh, it’s mine is the fact that you just so many hours of work to put information out there, because when you go on the bookshelves and you and this has been very interesting, you’ll see this when you go to find your book in the, in the bookstores and then you pass over.

 

00;04;13;12 – 00;04;25;20

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

All the ones are like, ooh, that one’s bad. Don’t buy that one. That one’s, you know, you’re like, oh, can we just get rid of what? Like, can we just have some good stuff out here. Yeah. So it’s it’s it’s really it’s a, it’s great that so many doctors in this generation are putting stuff out there.

 

00;04;25;25 – 00;04;35;04

Dr. Mona

Yeah I, I love writing. And so to now be able to get that book out and like obviously mine’s going to come out in a year and a half because people don’t realize it takes that long to write a very.

 

00;04;35;04 – 00;04;36;19

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Long gestation thing.

 

00;04;36;21 – 00;04;51;18

Dr. Mona

It’s like, yes, it’s like literally that’s what we call it, a labor of love. You know what was so amazing? My husband when I got when I signed my book deal, he was like, this is wild. He’s like, you know, that this like, when you die, this book is going to live on. And I’m like, that’s morbid, but that’s true.

 

00;04;51;24 – 00;04;55;00

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Like, like, thanks so much, honey. But is there something I should know?

 

00;04;55;00 – 00;04;56;00

Dr. Mona

But yeah, but like.

 

00;04;56;04 – 00;04;56;12

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Yeah.

 

00;04;56;18 – 00;05;09;17

Dr. Mona

And I, my husband and I often talk about like in a very natural he’s like, that’s so crazy that like, it’s going to live on like social media can end like, you know, when you, you know, but this book is going to be a legacy. And I’m like, damn right. It is.

 

00;05;09;17 – 00;05;27;23

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

That’s what I said. I like I’ve been pitching this. And it’s not just to like, pitch. It’s truly I’m like, I want this to be my legacy. Because in 20 or 30 years, which whatever edition, hopefully somebody we’ll take it over by that point. But like, yeah, the fact that it’s out there and these things exist and it can be part of your legacy because people, you know, you can get books of the library, you don’t have to be.

 

00;05;27;23 – 00;05;35;20

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

I mean, we love it when you buy them because it supports our work. But that’s the great thing about this stuff is that you can get at the library, you can borrow it, you can borrow it from a friend, and you just want that good info out there.

 

00;05;35;23 – 00;05;45;16

Dr. Mona

I love it. So obviously you have been creating content online for years. You went extremely viral on TikTok during the pandemic. I mean, how many followers do you have over there right now?

 

00;05;45;18 – 00;06;02;14

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

So I have about 2.8 million. Yeah, but I will tell it that it’s so interesting. Like the algorithm there has it’s it’s a different beast, right, than it was during Covid and whatnot. But when I first really went back over there, it was great because it was a lot of content geared towards younger people, which is who I was trying to be.

 

00;06;02;16 – 00;06;21;05

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

That’s the only reason I went on TikTok, because I was like, no adult goes on TikTok. Remember, this was pre-pandemic before everybody was on it, and I was like, I will never go on there. And it was like, you know, other obligations were like, no, Jen, you need to. And it was just talking about the basics of like periods, birth control, sex, you know, hygiene and the and you see this too, right?

 

00;06;21;05 – 00;06;37;07

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

The thing you’re sharing a fact and you’re like everybody has to know this, right. Or everybody knows this other thing is not true. And and then you realize, oh my God, this is why we do this. Because people don’t know it. And it’s not because they’re not trying. It’s because they’ve been taught wrong or somebody else was. No credentials has convinced them otherwise.

 

00;06;37;09 – 00;06;47;27

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

It’s why you don’t need to put a lot of complicated, like, go with the basics. And honestly, if if social media was around when I was younger, I would have been getting all my information from it, good, bad or otherwise, I don’t know, but it’s why we have to be there.

 

00;06;47;29 – 00;07;00;17

Dr. Mona

So what made you make this jump? To write a book? And I know this is your second book, but this is on you published one during the pandemic, which was a hard time to publish and all that. But who is this book for and why did you think it was needed at the time.

 

00;07;00;17 – 00;07;11;07

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

That you wrote it? Yeah. So the fact that there before this book, there was no book by an OPG man just about labor and delivery. And every time I say that, people are like, are you sure? I know.

 

00;07;11;07 – 00;07;11;25

Dr. Mona

That’s crazy.

 

00;07;11;25 – 00;07;28;04

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And you told me because it’s not. Yeah, it’s not that there aren’t good books out there about pregnancy and birth. It’s not that you have to be an OB man to write a book about birth, but I feel like it’s kind of our sweet spot. And I’m not trying to say that birth is complicated and a doctor has to write about it, but to understand the nuance and to have that background.

 

00;07;28;04 – 00;07;42;27

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And then if things do get complicated, to have the person who’s going to come in and either do the surgery or do the forceps or manage the hemorrhage, like I want to be able to tell you what it’s like because because I know and I’m not just figuring it out third hand because I’ve seen it. And so I wanted to put it out there.

 

00;07;42;27 – 00;07;59;18

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

I also, you know, a lot of books, especially about pregnancy, that are bestsellers, are not written by people who are even in clinical medicine. And again, you don’t have to be, but I think it’s really important to at least have that, you know, you can buy more than one book, but like, don’t you want to know about the person who’s doing this every day?

 

00;07;59;20 – 00;08;19;16

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And then I just, you know, on social media scene and especially now in our political climate, seeing so much incorrect information about, yeah, pregnancy and labor and birth and it really comes down to a lack of information. And when we see and I learned through this research and just seeing what people sent me in DMs, 1 in 3 births in the world are considered traumatic.

 

00;08;19;16 – 00;08;35;23

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And in some studies it’s 1 in 1 and two. So 50% of people are leaving it. I’m not talking about medical complications, which I know you know all about, but I’m talking about the psychological trauma, which I also know you know all about. Yeah. And that’s real and that’s there. But for a lot of people, it isn’t that something big dramatic happened.

 

00;08;35;26 – 00;08;54;12

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

It’s just that they didn’t not just but they didn’t know what was happening or they felt violated because they weren’t informed. And I can’t fix the entire health care system in a book, but I sure can try to write stuff down so that you can go in informed. Because when you know even what you have access to or what you can ask for, you’re more empowered and you’re more likely to at least have a chance at getting it.

 

00;08;54;19 – 00;09;15;07

Dr. Mona

And I love, you know, obviously as an OB, you take care of, families obviously through their pregnancy. And then obviously with delivery. But you chose to focus specifically on labor delivery and postpartum for this book rather than spending most of the time in pregnancy. So why was that so important to you, and what gap were you seeing in that sort of area for birthing parents?

 

00;09;15;09 – 00;09;29;24

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Yeah. Well, so again, the books that are out there, there are good books out there, but when you look at them, the majority of the pregnancy stuff, which is of course important, and I feel like it’s only getting bigger as we have more things, more things to talk about in prenatal care, whether it’s genetic testing or vaccines or it’s a lot.

 

00;09;29;26 – 00;09;44;18

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And then by the time you get to the having the baby part, it’s always the smaller part of the book or like they talk about it, but like they don’t talk about it. Like I don’t want to tell somebody what an internal monitor looks like without showing them and talking about the data and really understanding, because that’s the questions my patients have.

 

00;09;44;20 – 00;10;02;11

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

So so that’s number one. The other thing is that I work currently as an OB hospital. So I’m on labor and delivery. And you know, like I’m a big believer in you should talk about what you’re an expert in and let other people who are experts in other stuff handle that. So I haven’t been in the clinic maybe 10 or 12 years now.

 

00;10;02;11 – 00;10;19;01

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And it’s not that I can’t talk about pregnancy, but for me, this is my bread and butter. This is my every day, just like an outpatient pediatrician, like you’re going to talk about all, you know, all of that stuff. It’d be weird if you were in a hospital and you were, you know. So I think it’s really important that I’m talking about what I know.

 

00;10;19;03 – 00;10;33;23

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And I wanted to give it, like the respect that it needed between labor of birth, postpartum, like my book is almost 400 pages. That has nothing to do with pregnancy. And I think that and I still and you’ll see this as you write your book, you’re like, oh, okay. For the next edition, I need to put this in.

 

00;10;33;23 – 00;10;40;05

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And I say, like you, there’s always more that you could talk about.

 

00;10;40;07 – 00;11;04;06

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show. Thank you for acknowledging, you know, my awareness with traumatic births and the emotional impact of postpartum. I was actually very jarred by that experience because although I had rotated, you know, in medical school, we go through rotations in OB, I saw that it was more rare than not.

 

00;11;04;06 – 00;11;23;13

Dr. Mona

Right? I mean, it happens, but like I see, by and large, I was scrubbing in to healthy deliveries, right? Deliveries that really had minimal complications. And then my experience happened, which we are not going to dive into deeply. But I felt like like, wow. Like I don’t know anybody else that this has happened to. I didn’t know that this could be a possibility.

 

00;11;23;13 – 00;11;46;27

Dr. Mona

And of course, there’s so many little nuance situations, but it’s so important that parents not feel scared, but just feel informed in general. And I know you’ve talked a lot about how informed choice is a power, but what do you feel like true informed consent actually looks like in a labor room, especially when things are moving fast, when decisions have to be made, whether there’s trauma or not?

 

00;11;46;27 – 00;11;55;00

Dr. Mona

Like, how does that look like to balance not only what a family wants, but what you need to do as an OB to keep the mom and the baby alive and safe?

 

00;11;55;02 – 00;12;22;07

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Right? Well, you hit the nail on the head. Can you do informed like true informed consent when you’re pushing and you’re unmedicated and all of a sudden your baby’s heart tones are down and I’m talking to you about a vacuum birth. And I do think that you can. I think I think the people who go into LPGA and in general, but especially as no big hospitals, we have like a skill set of being able to make connections in really high intensity moments and break it down and make that eye contact and do it well.

 

00;12;22;10 – 00;12;42;01

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And not to say that there aren’t people who don’t, but I think that we thrive in those environments. And so I think that you can get consent in those moments. However, it’s so much easier to do it well before that and to talk about the hey, this could happen, here’s what’s going on. And it’s why in my book, I include checklists of things to ask about your doctor, your midwife.

 

00;12;42;01 – 00;13;03;29

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

If you’re thinking about a home birth, what to ask that midwife, what’s available at your hospital? And then I also include what? Need a birth plan? I call it birth preference is a template. It’s in the book, and you can also download it on my website. And all of that stuff is free. And it talks about I want to talk about these things ahead of time, because it doesn’t mean that if we talk about a C-section, we talk about a blood transfusion or about forceps, that it’s going to happen.

 

00;13;04;02 – 00;13;21;06

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And to have that space to have that conversation so you really can ask your questions. We know you’re going to be more informed, you’re going to be able to ask questions, and there’s less likely that you’re going to be traumatized. However, if it does come up, because not everybody gets to have that, I’m a huge believer. And afterwards the debrief is huge.

 

00;13;21;06 – 00;13;49;08

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And I don’t know if you got that or how many people listening had that. But to go back in now, you know, an hour after, but the next day and then at your outpatient appointment to really, you know, to say, here’s what happened. What is your understanding of what happened? Here’s why I recommended this. And you will have people who have that understanding, and they can end up with a cesarean hysterectomy where they lose their uterus during their birth, and they feel like things were great and they’re so satisfied and not traumatized at all because they felt included.

 

00;13;49;10 – 00;14;06;25

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And then the opposite is you have somebody who came in and maybe just just didn’t get an epidural in time because she went so quickly. And we all think that’s a great thing, right? Like, oh my gosh, what a birth. And meanwhile she’s like, no, I’m so traumatized because that was so scary. And nobody debrief that with me or even acknowledged it.

 

00;14;06;27 – 00;14;26;25

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And now I’m too scared to have kids in the future because. And that felt very out of control. So yeah, but I think as much as you can talk about these things ahead of time, that’s huge. And you might have to like really push for it because it sucks, because insurance and the way visits are set up when you have like eight minutes with your provider in the room, it is really hard to get these things answered.

 

00;14;26;25 – 00;14;37;23

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

So what do people do? They go to social media. They look it up. It might not be great there. And that’s why I wrote like a physical book to be like, okay, on your time, look at this, read that, go in and say, hey, I have a question about this part here. Can we talk about it? Well, I.

 

00;14;37;23 – 00;14;53;19

Dr. Mona

Love you know, I obviously haven’t read the book, front to cover, front to back yet. But I love how you also include home births in their right to be inclusive. And I think sometimes, again, we can tend to be very polarized into like, don’t. Yes. Like, I, I for one have seen the negatives of home births, right.

 

00;14;53;19 – 00;15;25;22

Dr. Mona

As a pediatrician working in the NICU and horrible situations. But I’ve also seen amazing home births. I never see the family exact like you or anything. So it’s all about who’s that provider, what’s the communication like? And you know, you said something about this debrief like, I had two very different delivery experiences. I had a very rare complication that I found out after my daughter that I had, but the I didn’t know it until the second delivery and the first experience very dismissed in that experience of how I was feeling.

 

00;15;25;22 – 00;15;38;12

Dr. Mona

Right. And that was the difference. And I think that’s a testament to all doctors. And I’ve learned this too. It’s the dismissal of a concern that I think makes people in the medical system feel more cited. Right. It’s like.

 

00;15;38;12 – 00;15;39;25

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Oh, you 100% like.

 

00;15;39;26 – 00;15;58;24

Dr. Mona

That’s the that’s the secret sauce. Like you could in your heart of hearts as a clinician, feel like there’s nothing left to do. But when you’re dismissive and like, well, sorry, sir, sorry, ma’am. Like, I’m not going to do anything. It shuts the door and it also creates a lot of tension. And I was angry. Right. Because, yeah, shit hit the fan and I got really sick.

 

00;15;58;28 – 00;16;17;29

Dr. Mona

So then, of course, I’m angry because you didn’t listen to me, whereas, hey, I’m walking you through this. This happened the second time when my daughter was born. My doctor was like, this is weird. How could this complication be happening again? And I’m like, well, it’s happening. And she wasn’t dismissive. It wasn’t like, right. It was very much a different doctor who was like, hey, like, I believe you.

 

00;16;18;00 – 00;16;32;11

Dr. Mona

Like, I know something doesn’t feel right. We got to figure out what’s going on and how is it happening again, because she’s never even heard of that rare complication. And so I bring that up because I don’t. Your book is not going to cover every rare complication, but it’s going to recover or it’s going to cover communication.

 

00;16;32;15 – 00;16;51;18

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

It’s going to know what covers that. It covers traumatic birth. It covers. There’s one sentence, I feel that I’m not being listened to. How do I advocate for myself? Because some people think, well, they said no. So I guess that’s no. And they don’t know you can go up a chain or they’re too afraid to because they’re younger, or they might be black, or the English might not be their first answer, their first language.

 

00;16;51;18 – 00;17;13;01

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And so things that they shouldn’t have to worry about. But I don’t I just don’t know how many people know that you have the right to ask questions about your body. And when it comes to, to being dismissed. And it’s funny, this comes up literally every time I talk about this book and I did an event in the Bronx a couple days ago, and all these moms and doulas were saying they didn’t listen to me, they didn’t see me.

 

00;17;13;03 – 00;17;31;05

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And I, you know this as a doctor because you could have somebody present with the exact same thing and you explain it with, you know, I don’t know what’s going on, but we’re going to figure it out or everything’s negative. Here’s, here’s what I’m thinking. And that person goes home and have you physically done anything? Maybe not, but they feel so cared and trusted and you can tell somebody else while you’re labs are normal.

 

00;17;31;05 – 00;17;52;29

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

So yeah, you know, I don’t know. I’ll see you in a year. And those are the people that feel dismissed that then go off to social media and alternative practices that are actually way harmful. But I feel for them because they just want somebody to listen. And that is literally if you like, I want med schools like, yes, I want you to be smart, but I want them to start really focusing on admitting people who can have a conversation.

 

00;17;53;05 – 00;18;02;10

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Yeah. Can listen, who can respect women. Like, it shouldn’t be that hard. But it starts in the rules that you learned in kindergarten. And we’ve got to tell patients you deserve, at the very least, to be heard.

 

00;18;02;15 – 00;18;13;03

Dr. Mona

Yeah, I, I feel like that is what is lacking. And I’ve spoken about this too, that our current medical system by design, is pushing people away into pseudoscience and bad information. Right. Because, oh.

 

00;18;13;04 – 00;18;15;01

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Yeah, we’re getting the results for set up for. Yeah, yeah.

 

00;18;15;01 – 00;18;29;01

Dr. Mona

Like we don’t have time. The insurances run the show. So that means less, you know, less time with our patients, less ability to have these really meaningful conversations that myself and you would love to have in a clinic. Right. I know you’re now in the hospital, but you know how it was being in a clinic.

 

00;18;29;01 – 00;18;32;27

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Oh, yeah. Why do you think I’m in the hospital? I honestly, I can’t do this.

 

00;18;32;27 – 00;18;44;27

Dr. Mona

Why do you think I left? Yeah. Like, and that’s, you know, leaving was also very hard for me leaving clinical medicine like, in person because I love it. But also, I was burning out and I felt like I needed to do something different with medicine.

 

00;18;44;27 – 00;19;03;06

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And you see, you’re not giving the level of care that you know you would want for yourself or your child. Right? And so if people are listening to this and they’re like, well, what do I do? Because I’m stuck with my doctor Who, I feel for her because she looks so tired, like, you know, you can think, you know, if medicine is a political unfortunately it is.

 

00;19;03;06 – 00;19;21;11

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Think about that when when you vote or when you think about how things are, how do you think we got here? And think, if you don’t like this reality, how can we make it different? You calling your the practice manager or the insurance? You may feel like it does nothing but to use your voice to say, hey, I love my doctor, but she can’t keep this up and work, you know?

 

00;19;21;11 – 00;19;36;08

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And this is and this got missed because of this. And I called six times and insurance. I think it’s maybe that is a good thing about social media, because we are seeing so many people share those stories like, I don’t know, I watch the ones where they show, like the insurance denials and how long they’re on the phone.

 

00;19;36;10 – 00;19;45;16

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And this is a new this has been happening, but now we’re talking about it and it is acutely getting worse. So we have to give patients the language to use these words so that they won’t get blown off.

 

00;19;45;16 – 00;20;04;04

Dr. Mona

And I love how intentional you are about a certain word. So, you know, when you were when I asked you about that informed choice, you instead of birth plan, you said birth preference, which I love because I don’t think I hear that as much, you know, I mean, obviously in the pediatric pediatrics world, but why are you intentional with birth preference, if that was obviously I’m sure that’s not a coincidence.

 

00;20;04;04 – 00;20;17;03

Dr. Mona

I’m sure you just are intentional about that. And why? What are your thoughts about birth preferences, birth plans and what you see as good or not so good about being rigid in those? Like, I’m just curious your thoughts as a as a clinician that delivers.

 

00;20;17;06 – 00;20;32;24

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

So when I was a resident, when I first came out in practice, if you had a birth plan because I was taught this way, you know, you rolled your eyes, you went, oh yeah, it’s so difficult. She’s to end up with a C-section, you know, blah, blah, blah. She thinks she knows better. I mean, this is how I was taught.

 

00;20;32;28 – 00;20;51;04

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Yeah. And I think what’s sad is that there’s still people out there like that. And I think now being out doing, I’d like to say experienced, not older and experienced and wiser, you know, you see that this is people who are saying, I’m so scared of what might happen to me because I know the data about birth in the US or I feel like nobody’s listening.

 

00;20;51;04 – 00;21;14;00

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

So here’s my thing. And, you know, and the majority of these, when people bring that, they’re like, I’m like, cool, we do all this stuff anyway. But they’ve thought about it. So I think it’s wonderful when people come in with birth plans or birth preferences. There’s a million different templates out there. Of course, I had to create one more because I was like, I think I could do it better, but I was intentional about the term preferences because I think when you get too beholden to a plan, there’s a set up for heartbreak.

 

00;21;14;00 – 00;21;35;24

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And this goes into like the language we used to describe birth. So I can’t stand when people say natural childbirth, and I don’t care what you describe it for yourself, like, call it whatever you want. But when you refer to it that that implies that there’s something unnatural. And if you end up with an epidural or C-section or even pitocin, like if you’re whole identity was wrapped up in quote unquote natural and now you’re not like, this community kicks you out of the Facebook group.

 

00;21;35;24 – 00;21;57;24

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Like, that’s so traumatic. Yeah. So the idea of preferences and I do all that, you know, what do you want for pain control the law. But what I start off with, which I think is really important, is your top three things that you want me to know about this labor and birth. Because maybe it’s, you know, with my last birth, I felt like nobody asked permission or, you know, I, my, my husband gets really scared with this.

 

00;21;57;24 – 00;22;19;02

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And so I need, you know, or it’s, you know, I want to be able to it just helps people communicate their values. And I think whether you’re having a home birth, birth center birth or hospital birth, to think about preferences for each scenario, yeah, doesn’t mean they’re going to happen. But I and I’ve had this with home birth patients who’ve come in the transfer and they hadn’t been in a C-section and they have a birth plan for that.

 

00;22;19;09 – 00;22;35;07

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And I love that they’re that their midwife has made them go through this to think about it, because it is so much less traumatizing. And they’ve heard this before, and it’s all about reducing trauma and and getting good outcomes. It’s not just healthy mom, healthy baby. It’s like un traumatized, healthy, empowered, informed.

 

00;22;35;09 – 00;22;57;18

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show. Oh yeah, I love that intentional wording of birth preference. And I also receive that same training, which is why I was asking. And again, when I say training, I’m not an OB, but when I went on my rounds for OB, it always felt as if the clinicians I worked with would roll their eyes.

 

00;22;57;18 – 00;23;19;18

Dr. Mona

And so that was my perception. But then as I became a mother, and also became pregnant, I was like, wait, this makes sense to look at it as preferences. And I also love it because it is very culturally sensitive, right? Because you talk about how maybe they want to be told things, or maybe they don’t want to be told, or maybe culturally there’s some things that need to happen in that delivery room, right?

 

00;23;19;21 – 00;23;34;03

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Like maybe the father has to announce the sex of the like or say the name first. And could you imagine just being like, oh, screw that. You know, I yeah, I think it’s so important. And I remember we were talking on my podcast, so I was lucky I had you as a guest on my let’s Talk About Birth podcast.

 

00;23;34;03 – 00;23;44;17

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And we were talking about like, the vaccines and the things that you get as a baby in the hospital afterwards. And I imagine you walked into those rooms, especially in your first training, like, oh, they’re going to say no to everything.

 

00;23;44;17 – 00;23;45;04

Dr. Mona

And I just.

 

00;23;45;04 – 00;23;49;15

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Don’t care. And like, it’s so much more than that, right? Like it’s so much deeper than that.

 

00;23;49;17 – 00;24;07;24

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And I love your book because obviously it’s hitting things from so many different angles. Right. We already alluded to advocacy. We are talking about the birth preferences and you know how to come up with that. In the book you obviously have information on that, but you also address systemic issues in maternity care that many families may not realize exist.

 

00;24;08;01 – 00;24;22;14

Dr. Mona

So what are some hospital policies or insurance realities that parents should understand, maybe before choosing where to deliver? Or maybe something that you know, I know you can’t fix because you don’t have a magic wand, to fix it. But you just wish people would understand in this country.

 

00;24;22;16 – 00;24;46;00

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Oh, yeah. So insurance, we’ve already talked about how much we love it. So much, but your insurance may cover your hospital and your OB, but the anesthesia group that’s contracted or the urologist, if they if you need one consulted literally while you’re on the table, you know, you might be under anesthesia. They may not be. And you’re not going to know that until you get the bill.

 

00;24;46;00 – 00;25;03;09

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And you’re like, what the I you know, and we’re in America and bills can be crazy. And so I talk about how to ask that and to ask those sorts of questions like is your anesthesia group in. And I’m not saying you can control everything, but maybe you can and maybe you choose to go to one hospital as opposed to another if your doctor’s at different hospitals.

 

00;25;03;09 – 00;25;34;23

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

So that’s number one. The other thing is that the religion of your hospital matters. And, you know, I say this as many people don’t even don’t even know this. And it’s a little complicated because it varies. So what I’m talking about are Catholic hospitals. So if you might want, let’s say a next one on arm implant place before you leave, which we can do, or an IUD placed or your tubes tied, which so many of our patients like the number one form of birth control, if you want that down at your time of C-section, if you’re at a Catholic hospital, they may not be able to do that because that’s against what is

 

00;25;34;23 – 00;25;53;09

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

published by a bunch. You know, bishops called the, religious directives or ethical directives. The really annoying thing is that every hospital implements it differently. So you don’t know. So you can’t just like assumes you gotta ask. And some websites, they don’t even say which which religion they are. And so that’s another thing to ask. And then I’m, you know, abortion.

 

00;25;53;09 – 00;26;17;03

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And you might be like, why are you talking about abortion? Yeah. In a book about people who want to have their babies. Well, sometimes abortion is the needed treatment, even for people who want to have babies. And so knowing what religion hospital you’re at, even if you’re from a state like, you know, Oregon or New York or California, but especially if you’re not in any hospital, in a state like Texas or Florida, where you just you can’t change where you live.

 

00;26;17;03 – 00;26;46;02

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

But or maybe you will, but most people can’t. And to know what might not be available to you, and this isn’t to scare you, but it’s to empower you so that if something happens or maybe you’re choosing to babymoon in Florida and then you’re like, you know what? We’re going to go to Hawaii instead, actually, because if something happens, this is not meant to scare you or fear mongering, but it’s just about knowing, because we have all seen those news stories of people who said, I had no idea this was a thing and this, you know, bad outcome happened and had I known better.

 

00;26;46;02 – 00;26;51;17

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

So, yeah. And it’s when people and you probably get this right, don’t talk about politics on your social media or whatever, I’m like.

 

00;26;51;19 – 00;26;52;29

Dr. Mona

Oh yeah, I.

 

00;26;52;29 – 00;27;03;11

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Would love not to. I could talk about postpartum hemorrhage, shoulder dystocia all day long, but we have to because it has come into our exam rooms. And so now we have to because you live in this world. So I’m going to prepare you for it.

 

00;27;03;13 – 00;27;23;08

Dr. Mona

I love this I mean, I again I this is exactly why you need an OB to write it. Because how I think about pediatrics as well, when you are an OB, you are not working with only one type of socioeconomic status. You are not working with one religion. You’re not working with one political affiliation. Right? Sometimes what happens and I see this is that online a lot of like in my space.

 

00;27;23;08 – 00;27;45;10

Dr. Mona

Okay. For example, like parent coaching or, you know, these, people who are giving alternative remedies, a lot of these families are like higher income or like there’s certain things that you see by just being a doctor and working with diverse communities. Right? And so you understand that. And also the religious thing, I didn’t even realize, like, I didn’t deliver at religious institutions.

 

00;27;45;12 – 00;28;01;08

Dr. Mona

But that makes sense. You know, like, I yeah, like, I mean, if not to say that you have to just know where your values are. You have to know if that’s something that’s important to you. And I love that you outline that because that’s, again, getting people thinking about things that they weren’t thinking about in a non stressful way.

 

00;28;01;11 – 00;28;22;28

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Exactly. Think about it ahead of time. And you know some people are like well just don’t deliver at a Catholic hospital. Cool. But but what if you’re insurance that isn’t an option or you’re in like the state of Washington where 50% of hospitals are Catholic? Or what if you’re in a car accident and the EMS just takes you like so this is why knowing this, knowing you can’t control everything, but at least you’re not blindsided.

 

00;28;22;28 – 00;28;39;05

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Like, what do you mean? Yeah, it’s it’s interesting. And when you think about it, and I work in a Catholic hospital, and then I make it very clear everything I’m saying is my opinion and that of my employer. But, and then people say, well, how can you rate this, make this content, then work in that? Well, because frankly, I’m Portland.

 

00;28;39;07 – 00;28;52;10

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

If they didn’t hire anybody who thought like us, they don’t nobody but but also like you need to know that there are people here who want to be able to do these things. And if their hands are tied to understand where it’s coming from, just like when you’re in that visit, they’re like, why does she only have six minutes with me?

 

00;28;52;10 – 00;28;56;25

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And she’s triple booked as we didn’t design the system, but my God, we’re trying to fix it.

 

00;28;56;25 – 00;29;06;01

Dr. Mona

I know I can tell you that we are like, I mean every I again, I left clinical medicine to hopefully redesign parts of the medical system for pediatrics.

 

00;29;06;04 – 00;29;20;13

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Well, and the reason that set up the way it is. Right. Who do we leave in charge? We left people who don’t, who aren’t in medicine. We’re rich and very well-to-do. And we were just, you know, but you we were told it’s not professional to speak out about these things. Just do your job. Or we were just too busy doing our jobs.

 

00;29;20;15 – 00;29;32;09

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

I think that’s changing. So I love that, like somebody like you who actually sees patients and knows what’s going on can actually be in the room where decisions are made. That’s actually very revolutionary for what we do.

 

00;29;32;11 – 00;29;50;23

Dr. Mona

Well, I mean, again, I it’s it’s a huge loss. Like, you know, when I left it was such a hard thing to I was only working one day a week at that point when I left or one morning. And so it wasn’t even that much of a time loss. And then I shifted to another capacity. Now I’m seeing telehealth on a platform called Poppins, which, if most of my listeners know, but it was so hard, right?

 

00;29;50;23 – 00;30;10;11

Dr. Mona

Like it was just like, I don’t know if you watch The Pit, it was that push pull of like Doctor Robbie wanting to leave but doesn’t want to leave. Like, it’s like this weird hazing that you go through, right? Like that. You you’re hazed into a being obsessed with this place and not wanting to leave because they they ran you through the ringer, and now you’re like, I want to go, but how can I leave?

 

00;30;10;12 – 00;30;10;23

Dr. Mona

You know?

 

00;30;10;23 – 00;30;15;13

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Well, especially when that’s your whole identity, right? And like, people, you know. Yeah. We could that could be a whole episode.

 

00;30;15;14 – 00;30;41;24

Dr. Mona

And I had to take my identity. Yeah. I’m like, I can serve better in a different capacity. And that was a huge and yeah. Like I, I agree with that. And the other point that you made that blindsided me was the out-of-network cost. And you said it beautifully. The urologist, the anesthesiologist, when I, I vividly remember being in the ICU and I was in the ICU because of blood pressure issues and sepsis monitoring, and I wasn’t intubated, so I was coherent, right?

 

00;30;41;25 – 00;30;50;29

Dr. Mona

I was awake and in as I’m getting infusions, I’m having to call my insurance company, like to to talk about things like, hey, you know, in America.

 

00;30;51;00 – 00;30;51;17

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Yeah, yeah.

 

00;30;51;24 – 00;31;09;05

Dr. Mona

And call about my short term disability to make sure that that set up right. And you know, after that, I still remember, like, I had a traumatic experience with my son. And then the bills take about a month to come in the mail like month to six weeks. Right. And I just started getting flooded my entire bill for my son and my and myself.

 

00;31;09;05 – 00;31;28;05

Dr. Mona

Because my son was in the NICU, I was in I was in the ICU as well, was $460,000. Oh my God. Right. And you see the itemization and you start feeling like just a freaking cog in the wheel, right? Like I’m a human being that almost died. That was dismissed. And now I’m just getting a bill, like from a hospital that didn’t listen to me.

 

00;31;28;12 – 00;31;48;10

Dr. Mona

And I’m like, you wanting me to pay this. Like, thankfully, insurance covered a lot of it in my situation. And then the rest. I actually spoke to the hospital about what happened. Yeah, actually settled the situation because there was some malpractice in that in in my certain situation, but wasn’t antagonistic, was just very much like, hey, like this was really scary.

 

00;31;48;13 – 00;31;49;09

Dr. Mona

And here’s where we.

 

00;31;49;09 – 00;31;52;22

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Think about somebody who is undocumented.

 

00;31;52;22 – 00;31;54;01

Dr. Mona

I know who.

 

00;31;54;02 – 00;32;09;24

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Has not completed high school work, and I’m not trying to talk down, but like, works two jobs at like, the Dollar Tree and Burger King. Do you think they have time or feel that they can wait? Because, like, I know these are the people who go bankrupt. These are the poor outcomes. So when we wonder, we say like, are we so great?

 

00;32;09;24 – 00;32;31;05

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Like, are we? If you don’t have access to care and we wonder why we have the outcomes, we do. And then you see the administrators who make millions and you wonder, like how? Yeah. So how do we teach people that they can speak up, that they can do this? But it is infuriating. And I had a patient a couple weeks ago who gave birth and was from Canada, and I was like, tell me what it’s like.

 

00;32;31;07 – 00;32;33;17

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

I mean, I know it’s not perfect, but she’s like.

 

00;32;33;17 – 00;32;37;24

Dr. Mona

You’re just like sitting there like your eyes. Just tell me the stories of the across the border.

 

00;32;37;24 – 00;32;44;06

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Yeah. She’s like, would you like to come work with? Feels like, well, you’re real sweet. I’ll come, you know. But I really do love my city. For what do we do?

 

00;32;44;09 – 00;33;00;18

Dr. Mona

And, Yeah, well, you know, obviously we’re talking about this delivery, and we could talk, like, 2 or 3 episodes about the delivery experience. And I want to shift a little bit to postpartum, which can feel like, you know, a very big blind spot in care. And I think everyone feels this, that there’s so much attention in the pregnancy.

 

00;33;00;18 – 00;33;07;25

Dr. Mona

Right. You’re pregnant. Oh, what do you do? You look so beautiful. Or the negative commentary like, oh, what does that baby do? Like you’re like, you’re going to pop every day.

 

00;33;07;25 – 00;33;08;26

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

You don’t have twins.

 

00;33;08;26 – 00;33;31;08

Dr. Mona

Yeah, you shouldn’t have twins. But there’s a lot of questioning of like how you are doing technically. And then the baby comes and it’s like beeline to the baby. And then mom is just kind of like, what the heck is happening? Like, what about me? So what would you say are three things every patient should understand about those first six weeks physically and emotionally, postpartum, and you wish you would like put on fliers and drop from a.

 

00;33;31;08 – 00;33;47;03

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Plane about the sky is such a good question. Well, first I just want to. I use the analogy and this is really depressing, but it’s true that pregnant women and pregnant people are like, candy in a wrapper. And then as soon as their baby’s born, the candies out the wrapper gets thrown away. It’s like all we care about is the candy, right?

 

00;33;47;03 – 00;34;04;09

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Which is so horrible. And to think that you go from having all these appointments to. We’ll see you in six weeks, you know. Are you kidding me? Why do you think some people go to birth centers and have home birth? Because they come visit them at 24, 48, 72 hours into their house. So anyway, so, so grounding it in that.

 

00;34;04;09 – 00;34;31;08

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

So the thing I’d want you to know, don’t you dare leave your hospital until you know exactly who to call. 24 seven both for you and your baby. And this sounds so obvious, right? But like, you are in a haze. Maybe you’re recovering from major abdominal surgery. Maybe your kid’s in the nick and you’re dealing with that, and you’re, you know, you’re anemic and whatnot, and you get all this paperwork, but I need you to know the number, and that might sound so silly, but, yeah, I also want you to know not only what the number is, but the reasons to call.

 

00;34;31;10 – 00;34;51;08

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And I put in my book very intentionally multiple like call right now, call in the morning, call, you know, or the next day or whatever. Because I want people to not feel stupid that they’re calling because they’re like, wow, I’m not really that short of breath or I mean, the headaches. Not that bad. I took Tylenol and it’s still no, I want you to call.

 

00;34;51;08 – 00;35;09;11

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

So knowing who to call and how to get in touch with people and not feel ashamed. The other thing I want people to know is that the number one complication from childbirth is not hemorrhage or infection. It’s postpartum depression and anxiety. And it’s not just in the people who have babies, but the ones supporting them. So my discharge instructions are always, I’m like, I need you to look out for each other.

 

00;35;09;16 – 00;35;28;02

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

But if you start having these symptoms and they’re in my book, I need you to call us right away because it’s legit a medical emergency. If you’re thinking of harming yourself, if you’re hearing voices talking about postpartum psychosis, the number one reason that people die in our country in the first year after having a baby is mental health issues related to death by suicide and overdose.

 

00;35;28;02 – 00;35;47;24

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And that’s really, really sad. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think the third thing is that what I want you to know, when you go home is forget everyone else. I don’t care what people are telling you you should do or who you should allow over. If you feel that you don’t want anybody in your house because it’s RSV season and you’re worried, even though hopefully you got that vaccine.

 

00;35;47;26 – 00;36;07;00

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Yeah. Let’s talk about, this is not anybody else’s birth story. So don’t feel that you owe anybody a visit or whatnot. Tell people what you want. I’d like you to leave food at the door. This is my meal train. I’m setting up. Like we do not get enough support in this country. And I just want people to not feel ashamed for saying no or for saying I need help.

 

00;36;07;02 – 00;36;20;05

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And I try to practice that more. I’m like, okay, I will ask for help in the carpool. I will ask you to, you know, keep my kid for an extra hour. Like, we just need to do it because we were not meant to birth. And the way that we do in this country in modern times, it’s just not how it was meant to be.

 

00;36;20;09 – 00;36;33;05

Dr. Mona

You know, the tell people what you want. I think I agree, and I am so happy that I did that. And I also wonder it’s because I went through what I did. I don’t know if I would have been that way had I had a seamless delivery, but because.

 

00;36;33;07 – 00;36;33;19

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

You’re like, I’m.

 

00;36;33;19 – 00;36;41;24

Dr. Mona

Just kind of what I needed, right? Like I literally was in I had a nurse clean my ass like I knew what I needed, right? So it’s like, like once you’ve done that.

 

00;36;41;27 – 00;36;49;07

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

I can ask for anything. And you know what? She was happy to do it. Yeah, she was probably watching what was on the TV. She didn’t even think about it. You know, she’s just.

 

00;36;49;07 – 00;37;03;03

Dr. Mona

Like, what? Humility. You become very humble when someone has to clean your butt. Okay. Like, I mean, let’s just be clear. But I think I always say I’m like, I look back and I’m like, I needed. I wonder if my type A I can do it all needed that experience to sort of say, you know what? You are human.

 

00;37;03;03 – 00;37;18;12

Dr. Mona

You can’t do it all. And, you know, I know a lot of us want the people, like in our lives to be like, take initiative and say, you know what? I’m not going to ask. I’m going to just deliver food to you. But they may not know what you need. Like I think about all my friends who didn’t have never had children but want to help me.

 

00;37;18;17 – 00;37;19;11

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Yeah, but.

 

00;37;19;14 – 00;37;39;00

Dr. Mona

They need to just to me to tell them, you know what. Like and I speak about this because when I had my son in the NICU, I didn’t like getting messages and video from healthy children in my life. What I meant is, like when my my son was sitting in the NICU and I didn’t know how his life was going to turn out, my nieces would send videos, people would send videos of their kids to cheer me up.

 

00;37;39;00 – 00;37;54;10

Dr. Mona

But that actually made me feel very sad because I didn’t know what was going to happen to my kid that I just had. And I had to just very clearly tell my friends, like, I know you mean, well, I love you, but can you just can you not send those videos? Because it’s making me a little sad right now.

 

00;37;54;17 – 00;37;59;24

Dr. Mona

And thank you, because I don’t think those people mal intent it intended. Not at all. But I.

 

00;37;59;25 – 00;38;04;18

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Spoke up and told them like, it’s amazing because how many other people would just deal with it and then.

 

00;38;04;21 – 00;38;05;01

Dr. Mona

It hurts.

 

00;38;05;08 – 00;38;15;03

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Every time. Yeah, exactly. So no, but but people don’t know. So you give direction. You know, we’re really good at following directions if you if you’re true friends, you know I think so. Yeah.

 

00;38;15;05 – 00;38;32;28

Dr. Mona

And I and I love that you bring that up and again I the stat that you mentioned or the comment that you mentioned how, you know, postpartum depression, anxiety, psychosis is one of the leading causes of, death, which is just heartbreaking. And is your feeling about that? Probably just do the stigma or lack of understanding the signs.

 

00;38;33;00 – 00;38;52;06

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

I do know I think it’s I think it’s I well, probably all of it. I feel like the stigma piece maybe is getting better, but it also varies by culture. And even asking for help and what you can say, I think a lot of it though, is access to care, because even if you are depressed and you’re in, you know, you call and you’re like, I think I need to be seen sooner if you even can verbalize that.

 

00;38;52;08 – 00;39;07;01

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And I’m like, sorry, we can’t get you in for another three weeks. And then, you know, you had a C-section and your pain meds ran out and you have preexisting issues, and you were afraid to go on your meds because you saw a TikTok that made you think it’s so much. And I think it’s just that we we are not there.

 

00;39;07;01 – 00;39;22;05

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And even the American College of Oregon has said, you know, postpartum care should be a continuum over the first three months, and you should check in at two weeks. Can I tell you how hard it is for people to get in, in a timely way? And people, if they’re lucky, they all will be like, well, screw this.

 

00;39;22;05 – 00;39;34;08

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

I’m just gonna go to the E.R. and get the help I need. What if you have to wait for 18 hours because you’re not the most acute, and then you leave, and then you do something terrible that could have been prevented.

 

00;39;34;11 – 00;39;42;03

Dr. Mona

Now, let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

 

00;39;42;06 – 00;40;02;01

Dr. Mona

And, you know, I think you talked about advocacy a little bit before, and I, I love that you talked about, like, escalating to, like someone else if you have an issue. But what would you say? I would love to chat about advocacy a little bit more for someone who feels intimidated speaking up. Right. Like we’re talking about this sort of like telling friends what you want or telling loved ones.

 

00;40;02;01 – 00;40;20;02

Dr. Mona

But obviously imagine that same person now in a medical setting with a stranger who already struggles with setting boundaries and advocating how can that person advocate for themselves in a way that feels steady and clear without feeling confrontational? Maybe elaborating on what you mentioned about who to escalate your concerns to if you’re not feeling heard?

 

00;40;20;05 – 00;40;42;11

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Yeah, well, I think these are. This is a great plug for doulas. So these are people who are support, not medical support, but emotional, educational support. So if you’re like, I think I want this kind of birth, I’m not sure if I’m going to get it. I’m going to hire somebody who’s literal. That’s your job is to send not to be not the Juliet or confrontational, but they can say, you know, she really told me she wanted this.

 

00;40;42;11 – 00;40;58;02

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And we’re saying that, can we have some more time and you can outsource the mouthpiece and if you don’t want to do it and it’s totally fine if you don’t, some people feel like that’s, you know, they don’t want somebody in their space, which I get. You can ask your partner to be like, that’s your job. Or if you have a best friend and say, I want you to come, can you advocate for me?

 

00;40;58;02 – 00;41;12;23

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

So I think that that’s a great option. I think, you know, the other thing too, is that in the moment, like you might feel like things are going fine, and then afterwards you’re thinking about it and you’re like, well, I don’t want to get anybody in trouble. Please know that you can write a letter, write an email call.

 

00;41;12;24 – 00;41;32;27

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Like that’s what managers of the of units they get or clinics and that’s their job is to respond to that. And you’re helping to make it better for the next person. But I would really say, I think having another person who could go up that chain and it can start if you or them, you know, they can say, hey, can we talk to our doctor for a moment, 1 to 1, because let’s say it’s a nursing issue or whatever.

 

00;41;33;00 – 00;41;50;00

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Can we get another opinion? Could we talk to the charge nurse? That’s the magic word, the charge nurse because they can really like yes, they know where to go after that, which might be the the house supervisor, the unit supervisor, the patient advocate. You can even ask for the chaplain. It doesn’t mean you have to say a prayer with them, but they can they can act as a support person.

 

00;41;50;00 – 00;42;01;18

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

You can say, I’m falling apart here, and I feel like no one’s listening. What do I do? And give it to them and let them figure out, you know, all that, that sort of stuff. And I think it’s I think it’s really important because you shouldn’t feel silenced.

 

00;42;01;20 – 00;42;17;28

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And, you know, when we went through the experience that we did, you already mentioned that one of the things that me and my husband both realized as medical professionals and I know you are also married to a medical professional. Being on the other side, you meant like how hard? Like, we went through a lot. But we know the system, right?

 

00;42;17;28 – 00;42;30;05

Dr. Mona

We know the system. And when we sat there and when we were doing it, so many times our conversation came around to the people that don’t speak the language, the people that don’t feel comfortable, the people that don’t understand the medical lingo because.

 

00;42;30;05 – 00;42;30;19

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Oh yeah.

 

00;42;30;20 – 00;42;50;16

Dr. Mona

We don’t do a great job sometimes as clinicians speaking in a level that people understand without speaking, without speaking down to them. Right. Like, I feel like there’s an art, which I think as social media creators, we’ve gotten that. Yeah. How can I be an authority figure without speaking down to you? Right. Like that is a vital communication skill that many of us did not get in medical school.

 

00;42;50;21 – 00;42;59;12

Dr. Mona

And you mentioned that you wish more people had better bedside manner, which I agree, I think it would. It would reduce so many of the issues that we see in the modern healthcare system in America. Yeah.

 

00;42;59;15 – 00;43;19;26

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Oh yeah. No, I Mona, I have said this at every single time I’ve interacted with the health care system since I left medical school, and my husband the same. I don’t know how people navigate the system without the insider knowledge, and that is so unfair. And I’m talking about when I had a baby to scheduling appointments to when I fractured a vertebrae and I was in the ER, I just don’t know.

 

00;43;19;26 – 00;43;38;05

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And that is exactly like in a sentence, how our system is set up to fail, because you shouldn’t require a degree in it in order to get it. You you don’t have to be a mechanic to get your car fixed. You don’t have to be a banker to like, save. So why do you have to almost be a physician in order to succeed in this system?

 

00;43;38;07 – 00;43;55;01

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And that is a huge problem, which if you’re listening, you’re like, great. Well, I don’t plan to go to medical school. So what do you want me to do? This is another reason why I wrote this book, because I wanted somebody to go in and say, well, this doctor said here and these are the references, so can you tell me why you’re saying something different?

 

00;43;55;01 – 00;44;15;07

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Because I, I, you know, sometimes you do have to go in and say, well, I know that. And you might think, well, or people might think, well, if I’m going to bring in a paper, my doctor is going to yell at me. That’s a great screening question for you to see. Do you want this person to be there at your most intimate moments, or do you want, you know, if they’re like, actually, this is great, let’s talk about it, or here’s why this isn’t relevant for you or oh my gosh, thank you.

 

00;44;15;07 – 00;44;25;05

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

I’m learning to, you shouldn’t have to you shouldn’t have to be in the business in order to to come out alive on the other end. And unfortunately, that’s a lot of what health care in America is like right now.

 

00;44;25;05 – 00;44;30;08

Dr. Mona

It’s it’s not fair. You’re right. And I hope people get the book and mark it up like crazy, right. Like I want.

 

00;44;30;08 – 00;44;31;22

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Yeah, I want a thousand post-it notes.

 

00;44;31;26 – 00;44;49;15

Dr. Mona

Yeah. Mustard notes and little tabbies of different colors. Like make it your guide that again, like she said, like you’re going to you’re going to get the book. I love physical books, by the way. So I, I’m a big believer in buying your own copy. Just not only support doctor Jen Lincoln, but also just so that you can mark it up like crazy and write your own notes in everywhere.

 

00;44;49;17 – 00;44;54;01

Dr. Mona

What is your favorite chapter in the book? It’s like choosing your favorite child. But please do that for me.

 

00;44;54;02 – 00;45;18;01

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Like, okay, this is actually going to be this is kind of a downer question, okay. My, my my favorite, chapter, my favorite section is actually the stillbirth section because I didn’t just put in like a token one or 2 or 3 questions about it, which I feel like a lot of the books out there do. I went into details and I did it because when I have had to walk that path with patients, with stuff, we have to talk about them with, it’s hard.

 

00;45;18;04 – 00;45;34;24

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And I write in this chapter like, please don’t read it if it’s gonna stress you out or just know it’s here in case you need it. Or maybe this won’t affect you, but with 1 in 160 pregnancies ending this way, and I think it’s actually newer data shows it’s actually a little bit more than that. Maybe your friend or your neighbor did.

 

00;45;34;24 – 00;45;49;20

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And this is how I help them, because I talk about how to help. So, I and I, I’m just proud of it because I had folks who experienced stillbirth review it and they’re like, no, no, you don’t say this. You say that. And and not having somebody who has that lived experience but who’s cared for people, I wanted their voices to be there.

 

00;45;49;20 – 00;46;08;18

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

So I’m just proud because I feel like this hasn’t been a resource that’s existed. And in that moment, I don’t want you floundering and you’re like, googling, where do I go? And and who knows what you’ll find. So, so yeah. So I think that was my favorite. And then not so not so, serious. I answer the question, what do I do if I throw up or pee or poop on my doctor?

 

00;46;08;18 – 00;46;14;17

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Because everything a question and I’m like, girl, it’s just another day at the office. Like I’m not wearing my own clothes. Do you think I care?

 

00;46;14;20 – 00;46;24;20

Dr. Mona

Yeah. It’s like when babies do that to us, we’re like, it’s just bodily fluids are going to come out, like you’re going to fart. There’s going to be poop. I remember, and like it’s people are mortified. But like, we’ve seen it all, like, I.

 

00;46;24;20 – 00;46;26;19

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Promise you, I will not remember if.

 

00;46;26;19 – 00;46;27;19

Dr. Mona

In six hours you’re like.

 

00;46;27;19 – 00;46;35;23

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Hey, I’ll be like. And you remember in your heart, no, no, I literally know unless something absolutely crazy happened or like than I will.

 

00;46;35;25 – 00;46;47;10

Dr. Mona

Yeah, but it’s all part of the job I love that. Yes. And this is such an amazing conversation. What is giving you hope and joy right now? It could be about. It could be about the book or just in life. Like what is making you happy?

 

00;46;47;12 – 00;47;03;05

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Do you know what I think? Well, so we’re relating to the book, just seeing people who are reading it, and it’s like doulas and childbirth educators and patients who were like, where was this book? Oh my God, I love it. So you feel it and you’ll see this too. Like, you know, you put your heart and soul and you’re like, I think this is something special.

 

00;47;03;05 – 00;47;25;08

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

But when people see you and you realize you’re it’s cool because you’re helping other people and you’re not even there, you know, that’s super cool. And then I think the other thing that’s giving me hope or making me happy is just seeing this generation, you know, as they grow. I just feel like, you know, I just think of, like, my own kids, they’re like, mom, who cares what other people say, you know, thinking about trolls and comment or whatever they’re like.

 

00;47;25;11 – 00;47;43;01

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

If you work hard and you know, you’re just helping people, so. So just keep doing that, mom. Don’t worry about what people say. You know, in your comment section, I’m like, okay, thank you. This is also why they don’t have social media, but right, I don’t know, I just feel like this next generation that’s coming up or I think we’re we’re we’re giving them the tools to see through some of the BS.

 

00;47;43;02 – 00;47;45;16

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

And and I’m excited for that. So yeah, I.

 

00;47;45;16 – 00;47;54;03

Dr. Mona

Love a good BS detector child. Man. That’s good parenting, I’m going to say, because not all kids are like that. Gen. So I kudos to you. We can do well.

 

00;47;54;03 – 00;48;01;28

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

I know I haven’t I haven’t been home for a week. So I’ve got that you know like the whatever it’s called the filter. And then I’ll be home tomorrow and like oh I got my.

 

00;48;02;00 – 00;48;11;25

Dr. Mona

Exactly I know I took a week to Spain earlier this year and I was like, I was fullest blissful. And then I come back. I love my kids. But of course you’re just like, oh, this again?

 

00;48;11;25 – 00;48;14;03

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Like like I just then we’re back.

 

00;48;14;03 – 00;48;23;21

Dr. Mona

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I mean, I adore them, like, as we all know. But it’s just like when you have no responsibility for a week of anybody else and no one asking you where something is, you’re just like, wow.

 

00;48;23;23 – 00;48;38;26

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

But this is why parents like you do take time away. You do. It’s not cheesy like you need to put on your own. No. Go away. Remember the person you were before because you’re going to come back and be invigorated of this other self too. But it’s like, don’t forget who you are and your kids need to see that.

 

00;48;38;26 – 00;48;42;26

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Like, yeah, that you care for yourself. Which I’m sure you’ve talked about another episode. Oh yeah.

 

00;48;42;26 – 00;48;56;08

Dr. Mona

Cosigned by a person who’s heavily invested in child development like that. Yeah. Completely cosign. So, Jen, where can everyone go to stay connected with you? Get the book. I know I’m going to attach all of these to my show notes and make sure that people get access to it.

 

00;48;56;11 – 00;49;12;20

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Oh, well, thank you so you can go. I’m on all the socials at Doctor Jennifer Lincoln and then on the website Doctor Jennifer lincoln.com. And wherever you get books. Yes, it’s on Amazon. And I also did I narrated the audiobook. It’s eight hours and 15 minutes because they made me talk slow. But you can speed it up. Yeah.

 

00;49;12;23 – 00;49;21;15

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

But support your local independent bookseller and but if you can leave a review on Amazon that’s super helpful and I will teach you all these tricks too, of what to wear, where you go to when years ago.

 

00;49;21;15 – 00;49;35;15

Dr. Mona

But I and as someone who’s writing a book, I’ve known this even before writing my own book, please support Doctor Jennifer Lincoln if you even if you don’t need the book right now, buy it for a friend. Just buy it to support her. But again, leave those reviews. Thank you so much for joining me today.

 

00;49;35;18 – 00;49;36;20

Dr. Jennifer Lincoln

Thanks for having me.

 

00;49;36;27 – 00;49;50;24

Dr. Mona

And for everyone tuning in. You know what you need to do. You need to check out the book in to leave reviews. That was one thing, but you can also help her out by sharing this conversation. So hit that thumbs up sign. Share this video on your social media channel. Send it to a friend who may be expecting a baby.

 

00;49;51;01 – 00;50;05;25

Dr. Mona

Let them know that this book is out there and that it should be added to their book collection. That is how we spread the word with this amazing resource that I hope I’ve created for you all on the show. I cannot wait to connect with Doctor Jennifer on another episode because this will not be our last time together.

 

00;50;05;28 – 00;50;31;03

Dr. Mona

Check out her podcast as well and I can’t wait to chat with another guest next time on the Doc Talk podcast! Stay well everybody! This conversation really stuck with me long after we stopped recording. I have very much healed from the traumatic experience I had delivering my son over six years ago from the time of this recording, but when I talk about it, it doesn’t just go away.

 

00;50;31;03 – 00;50;53;09

Dr. Mona

Those feelings, right? Those feelings are there, those feelings exist. And although I’ve moved through my grief, it does open a little part of well, I want more people to feel confident in their journey. I want less people to ever experience what I did. My biggest takeaway is this informed consent is not a form you sign. It is knowing what you want, saying it out loud and asking questions.

 

00;50;53;09 – 00;51;12;02

Dr. Mona

Even when things are moving fast around you. The same goes for postpartum naming, your pain, your needs, your plan out loud to your partner, your provider, a loved one, your people. It is not being difficult. It is how you get taken care of. So here’s the hope in this you do not need to become a different person to advocate for yourself.

 

00;51;12;05 – 00;51;34;02

Dr. Mona

You just need the words and the permission to use them and to know that your voice matters. That starts with knowing your options exist in the first place, which is exactly what conversations like this one are for. If you know someone who is pregnant right now, or expecting a baby or heading into postpartum or still processing a birth that did not go the way they hoped, send them this episode.

 

00;51;34;05 – 00;51;52;07

Dr. Mona

This is the kind of thing you wish someone handed to you beforehand. And remember. Tag us at the PedsDocTalk podcast, PedsDocTalk, and Doctor Lincoln at Dr. Jennifer Lincoln. When you share on social media and make sure you download and subscribe to the show and watch us on YouTube. Thank you so much for being here.

 

00;51;52;07 – 00;51;55;25

Dr. Mona

Thank you for growing with us. Stay well and I’ll chat with you all next time.