If you have ever had to triple feed OR if someone ever recommends ‘triple feeding,’ you need to listen to this episode. Triple feeding is when a mom nurses, pumps, and supplements breast milk or formula, and IT IS EXHAUSTING and not sustainable. I welcome Victoria Facelli, a fellow IBCLC-lactation consultant and author of Feed the Baby, who is changing how we talk about feeding babies.

 

We discuss:

• What triple feeding is and why it’s not sustainable
• The problem with lactation education and how we got to triple feeding as an option in the first place
• How someone can balance milk production, feeding the baby, and sleep

 

To connect with Victoria Facelli follow her on Instagram @victoria.facelli.ibclc and purchase her book “Feed the Baby”.

 

Our podcasts are also now on YouTube. If you prefer a video podcast with closed captioning, check us out there and subscribe to PedsDocTalk TV.

 

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on the PedsDocTalk Podcast Sponsorships page of the website.

00;00;00;01 – 00;00;16;27
Victoria Facelli
I’m zooming out to like, a whole family, because as soon as we start triple feeding, we’re taking up all the resources. We’re taking up all the time for showering, all the time for connecting with an older sibling, all of the time to walk the dog all of the time to talk to your mom on the phone all of the time to sleep.

00;00;17;02 – 00;00;20;23
Victoria Facelli
Most importantly, and we’re putting it all towards feeding that baby.

00;00;20;25 – 00;00;45;26
Dr. Mona
Hello PedsDocTalk podcast listeners, it’s Doctor Mona and welcome to another episode. This week has been a week I was on a post-Olympic crash and my son started pre-K. And for anyone with School-age kids and I consider pre-K school age because it’s like a formal school, it can feel like a lot because, well, it is the email is the to do list, the things to buy, the orientations, the meet and greets.

00;00;45;26 – 00;01;02;13
Dr. Mona
I mean, my son is only in pre-K and I feel like it’s a lot, and I know it’s going to continue to feel that way. I asked a lot of you on my social media channels, and 78% of you in a poll that I put up, so that you have felt overwhelmed by back to school, even though it comes every year.

00;01;02;13 – 00;01;25;25
Dr. Mona
So sending solidarity if you’re in that phase, if you’re not, just know that you’re not alone. And if you aren’t feeling overwhelmed, I would love to hear your secrets. On handling the back to school craziness. It brings me to something else that I wanted to remind you. And that is when things are overwhelming, whether it’s back to school, postpartum, or just everyday life, it’s so key to lean on our support systems.

00;01;25;27 – 00;01;50;29
Dr. Mona
If you have followed along since the beginning of Pete’s Dog Talk. My first four years as a mom were tough. I did not have a lot of help. I didn’t have a community, I didn’t have the so called village and we were in that pandemic also. So not only being a first time mom, but having gone through birth trauma and IVF and my husband and I working full time in the pandemic and not having any family or consistent paid help for Ryan was so hard.

00;01;51;02 – 00;02;14;04
Dr. Mona
So hard. And I’m finally in a better place. And it’s for many reasons I’m physically feeling at my best. And I have to think the fact that I’m not pregnant and I’m not going through fertility treatments to feel like I can actually reclaim my body. So I feel like I’m at my best physically. I’m in consistent weekly therapy to unpack trauma for my life, and most importantly, I’m utilizing my support system.

00;02;14;06 – 00;02;31;20
Dr. Mona
This means delegating things to my husband, who sometimes struggles with taking initiative, telling him the areas I need help with when it comes to the kids. So I’m not always feeling like the default parent because I am. And this can also mean reaching out to my employees as a business owner about tasks to see if they can help with.

00;02;31;22 – 00;02;56;03
Dr. Mona
And this is also meant showing gratitude to the people in my life that continue to uplift and help me physically and mentally. My trainer, therapists, certain family members, and our nanny. Having not had this support system for so long, I don’t take any of it for granted. And if you are in a phase where it feels heavy, I want to remind you that it won’t always feel that way and that what you’re feeling is normal.

00;02;56;03 – 00;03;13;05
Dr. Mona
It’s not like you’re not able to handle it or anything else. Hard times are hard, but I want you to look around and see who your helpers are. Look for them even during hard times. Who is showing up for you? Who can you rely on to take off the load? Whether it’s tasks that need to get done or just the emotional load?

00;03;13;05 – 00;03;37;18
Dr. Mona
Someone who can talk with you. We cannot do this parenting thing alone, and it’s important to celebrate help when we get it. Now let’s get into today’s episode. Remember, you can now catch our conversations on YouTube as well. Leave those reviews and share your favorite episodes. That’s how the show continues to grow. Today’s guest is Victoria for Kelly on Instagram, as at Victoria for Kelly IBC LC.

00;03;37;22 – 00;03;58;26
Dr. Mona
She’s a fellow IBC LC lactation consultant, author of Feed the Baby who is Changing the Way We Talk about Feeding Babies. She joins me to talk about triple feeding and how much we both hate it. And I admit I used to recommend it to patients before I became a mom and an IB, CLC, and I even triple fed for a week with Vera before I realized that it just isn’t sustainable.

00;03;58;29 – 00;04;18;07
Dr. Mona
So along the lines of talking about getting help and looking for your support system, sometimes your support system may be an IB, CLC, or an episode like this that tells you to think about yourself a bit and make things more sustainable for you, including in the postpartum period. Let’s get to the conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today, Victoria.

00;04;18;14 – 00;04;20;26
Victoria Facelli
Hi there. It’s so great to be here. Thanks for having me.

00;04;21;03 – 00;04;45;03
Dr. Mona
Yeah finally able to connect and I’m so grateful. You know I’m a newer ibc LC in my training and I love connecting with other IB classes and lactation educators on the show and talking about this topic that I think so many mothers deal with, and don’t understand the frustration of it until they actually get into it, or are frustrated by it and don’t know other options about what they can do if they hate triple feeding.

00;04;45;05 – 00;04;53;21
Dr. Mona
But before we get into that conversation, tell me more about yourself, why you became an IBC, LC, and also your book Feed the Baby.

00;04;53;23 – 00;05;18;21
Victoria Facelli
Yeah, so I became an IBC LC actually a long time before I had my kids. So I was, postpartum doula and then a lactation consultant, and then I became a mom. And so that objective ness, but I was able to bring to my early career was so great, like, I wasn’t carrying any of my own baggage and experience into it.

00;05;18;23 – 00;05;45;17
Victoria Facelli
I live in North Carolina, and the University of North Carolina has this really robust inpatient, training program. So we do a lot of research, we do a lot of direct, education. And then also we’re in first centers, outpatient clinics, small community hospitals. Giant Nic use in eastern North Carolina like really saw such a big span.

00;05;45;19 – 00;06;12;04
Victoria Facelli
And it was so great to get such a big perspective as an early IB, CLC and really started to develop some of my ideas and thoughts and kind of my own perspective on this field. And I was always like, pretty chill with formula in a way that not everyone was. And I was always sort of like more interested in the big picture of how the whole family is doing.

00;06;12;07 – 00;06;32;29
Victoria Facelli
And then when I had my own daughter, I had a traumatic birth. She was not able to nurse. I felt sort of backed into a corner with exclusive pumping. I don’t think everyone feels that way. I think some people feel really empowered with exclusive pumping. I think exclusive pumping now versus five years ago is so different because of the different tools.

00;06;33;02 – 00;07;00;08
Victoria Facelli
But that was really my experience. And so when I sort of came out of the fog of the trauma of having my daughter, I say, my therapist told me I need to do something that was about me. And that’s when I wrote Feed the Baby with mother is my love letter to all kinds of parents. It’s an inclusive guide to nursing, bottle feeding, and everything in between.

00;07;00;10 – 00;07;22;28
Victoria Facelli
And it’s sort of a choose your own adventure because that’s really what I see. Families needing to do. And I didn’t want to make one style of feeding the most important thing, because the reality is, at some point over kid’s first two years, you’re probably going to use all the tools like some folks really are, just going to use one tool.

00;07;22;28 – 00;07;46;11
Victoria Facelli
But it’s pretty rare that people just nurse and never pump. Or people like just formula feed and never, ever laughs. You know, like there are definitely those instances, but they’re pretty rare. And so what I wanted was for people to be able to see their stories reflected, tell really diverse stories, and also give these really concrete tools. And it was so fun to write the book.

00;07;46;14 – 00;07;49;26
Victoria Facelli
I had a really great time with it. And now.

00;07;49;28 – 00;07;51;19
Dr. Mona

00;07;51;22 – 00;08;08;03
Victoria Facelli
I’m sort of trying to find my way into what’s next and figuring out what really grounds me in this work and the thing that I keep coming back to that I think you come back to as well, is where is the place of mental health in the feed and conversation?

00;08;08;06 – 00;08;30;18
Dr. Mona
Now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors. Yes, and I resonate with you so much on that. And I think we have both personal and professional experience on that as well. You know, my journey is different, as you know, and maybe my listeners don’t know, but I was a pediatrician first. I’ve always wanted to get my IPC, you’ll see, because, most people know you don’t get a lot of that training in pediatrics.

00;08;30;20 – 00;08;57;16
Dr. Mona
But I was like, I wanted to do it at the time, right? The credentials and the work coursework. And then after working for ten years, I had so much experience with families, right? Talking to them, learning, shadowing, doctor shadowing, shadowing other IPC classes in my hospital that I found. And so then I became an I because after the traumatic birth I had with my son and feeling like there was a lack of understanding of pumping education, a lack of understanding of the combination feeding.

00;08;57;18 – 00;09;15;24
Dr. Mona
And so I felt like maybe I can be that voice for someone who may need nursing, but more so maybe combination feeding or maybe exclusive pumping. And I did my own work on that, like like you did. I have not read your book. And by the way, I’m going to read your book because like I said, as a fellow, I you’ll see, I think I’m going to learn so much from you.

00;09;15;24 – 00;09;27;09
Dr. Mona
And I think that’s so awesome that we can connect that way. And what is your personal and professional experience with triple feeding and why, you know, using that term. Why do you hate it so much?

00;09;27;11 – 00;09;55;05
Victoria Facelli
Yeah, I it’s so funny, like my mentor and I really can get into it about triple feeding. She’s been in the field a lot longer than I have. And I think part of what’s really important to me is to remember that providers are people and they have a lens. Right. So like when you were just a pediatrician, you had this lens of like, you’re really looking at the baby, you know, like you’re looking at the whole family, but like your patient, you’re vaccinating that patient.

00;09;55;05 – 00;10;22;19
Victoria Facelli
You’re weighing that patient. You’re like making sure that that patient is healthy. And so and then understanding also like what someone’s scope what someone’s education. Right. So as a pediatrician your scope is like newborn all the way to 18. Right? You’re doing everything from like puberty and hormones and broken bones and RSV and all of that stuff and even feeding, which really to do well takes two hours and that.

00;10;22;19 – 00;10;48;21
Victoria Facelli
Yes. And years of training. Right. So we have to also understand that our pediatricians aren’t necessarily experts in infant feeding. Yes, they’re experts in growth curves. They’re experts in baby like assessing if a baby is healthy and well, and they’re such a great resource to talk through things with like. Right. They’re sort of like the head of this larger team.

00;10;48;23 – 00;11;13;21
Victoria Facelli
But I think what really gets me with triple feeding is that when a pediatrician sees a baby who’s not gaining weight, well, it is often the only tool they have. They’re like, I know I need to protect production like milk production. I know I need to get this baby gaining weight. I do not have the time and nuance to really figure out why this is happening and what is happening.

00;11;13;23 – 00;11;44;07
Victoria Facelli
But pumping plus formula feeding, plus offering nursing. Like maybe we should do everything like it’ll work at that. And that is understandable and without nuance, right? Like I understand why that’s the easy first place to go. Yeah, but what often doesn’t get talked about. So like there’s different people who might recommend triple feeding. The first one is pediatricians.

00;11;44;09 – 00;12;11;27
Victoria Facelli
And where I often see the problem, there is not getting to the why. Like is there a plan to figure out the why. Like if a baby is not transferring, is it a supply issue, is it a ten time. Is it a like torticollis, like a body issue where a baby’s holding tension in their body? Are they like do they have an allergy.

00;12;11;27 – 00;12;31;25
Victoria Facelli
Like those are pretty rare. But like, are they not absorbing? Well, like we actually have to get into that. Why? And since half of that equation is not your patient, it’s very difficult to get into that. Why? A lot of the time. Yeah. And there’s not time. And they don’t like see our kiddos as often as other providers do.

00;12;31;25 – 00;12;52;12
Victoria Facelli
So that’s like one piece of it is just sort of the idea of like, I don’t know, let’s just do everything right. And then you’re left with no plan. And then I also see lactation consultants recommending triple feeding. And that comes from a different angle. So I feel like pediatricians are recommending triple feeding because they want to protect a baby’s growth.

00;12;52;14 – 00;12;53;10
Dr. Mona

00;12;53;12 – 00;13;09;27
Victoria Facelli
Right. That’s why my book is called Feed the baby. Like that’s our rule right. First feed the baby. We don’t do anything else till that baby’s fed right, right. Like I work in a tongue clinic one day a week. Like if a baby is not gaining weight. Well, and I don’t have permission from their pediatrician weight wise, I’m not touching that kid.

00;13;09;27 – 00;13;43;11
Victoria Facelli
Like, first we feed the baby. So that’s their perspective. And then I think a lot of lactation consultant are so fixated on nursing. That they can’t let that part go. So ideally they’re working interdisciplinary. They’re looking really closely. They’re trying to figure out like the why of that baby’s low transfer. But in the meantime they’re so focused on direct nursing being important or milk production being important that they’re a little stuck to em.

00;13;43;13 – 00;14;07;23
Victoria Facelli
So where I get in there is I really am zoomed out to like, okay, there’s two patients or more in front of me, right? In the case of multiples, maybe more, but we’ll start with two patients in front of me and actually often a third if I’m including a partner. Right. Or sometimes like a sibling who has a lot of needs.

00;14;07;23 – 00;14;25;21
Victoria Facelli
Right. So like I’m sending at like a whole family because as soon as we start triple feeding we’re taking up all the resources, we’re taking up all the time for showering, all the time for connecting with an older sibling, all of the time to walk the dog, all of the time to talk to your mom on the phone all of the time to sleep.

00;14;25;21 – 00;14;48;26
Victoria Facelli
Most importantly, and we’re putting it all towards feeding that baby. And one of the things I talk about is that, like, I don’t believe that breast is best. I don’t believe that breast milk is inherently better because you can’t generalize like that. Every choice we make has tradeoffs, and we cannot assume that we know those trade offs for another individual.

00;14;48;29 – 00;15;13;08
Victoria Facelli
So when we decide that we’re going to triple feed and we don’t acknowledge those trade offs, that is where I get protective. Yeah. And to my experience of triple feeding. So when I was in practice, I would just like see families who were just undone by triple feeding. And I was like, we gotta do something about this. Like, this is horrible.

00;15;13;08 – 00;15;35;13
Victoria Facelli
Like we are torturing these people. Like sleeplessness is used as torture. Like you can actually torture someone by not letting them sleep. Yes. And so if we tell them the most important thing you can do for the health of your child is breastfeed them. Which in the way I read the literature, is a little heightened.

00;15;35;15 – 00;15;37;13
Dr. Mona
Yes.

00;15;37;15 – 00;15;54;13
Victoria Facelli
And then we’re like. And in order to achieve that, you’re not allowed to sleep. You’re like, well, this is my the most important thing in my life. I love this person more than anything I can possibly imagine. I would do anything for her. I’m going to completely sacrifice myself. And so for me, I had started from the NICU.

00;15;54;13 – 00;16;16;04
Victoria Facelli
I had started from trauma. I had started from a kiddo that was struggling to eat like she was using a G, an Ng tube. We were like trying to stave off needing a g-tube surgery. It was a very heightened experience and so I threw everything into pumping. I was like, I’m going to fix this kid with my breast milk.

00;16;16;06 – 00;16;33;02
Victoria Facelli
Now here I am five years later with a happy, disabled kid. And I’m like, actually, health is a lot bigger than that, honey. Yeah. And like, food is a lot bigger than that. And the way we share meal times is so much bigger than that. And guess what? We’re still doing feeding therapy.

00;16;33;04 – 00;16;33;28
Dr. Mona

00;16;34;00 – 00;17;05;07
Victoria Facelli
So for me I, we decide to prioritize bottles and just like get the heck out of the hospital. And she was able to do bottles. And then we came home and I started working with everyone I could find to try to figure out if she could directly nurse. And I really like came to a point where I realized that, yeah, working on that scale was obscuring everything else.

00;17;05;07 – 00;17;30;15
Victoria Facelli
And so I let it go. Yeah. And then like honestly for me in the time I was in being stuck on the couch, plugged into a large pump that was outside of my bra, which now, like, we have such a bigger variety of options. Wow. I was actually having my own health crisis. So I had like physical trauma from my daughter’s birth.

00;17;30;23 – 00;17;37;22
Victoria Facelli
I was losing weight. I was fading like, you ready to hear something gnarly?

00;17;37;25 – 00;17;39;03
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;17;39;05 – 00;17;49;23
Victoria Facelli
I had a colonoscopy four months postpartum after an unhealed fourth degree tear. Wow. Pumping.

00;17;49;25 – 00;18;08;15
Dr. Mona
Oh my gosh. Like the like, we talk about looking at this as a whole bought whole family approach, right. Like that is the mother is healing so greatly there. And we forget how much that is for her body, including when you’re producing milk. I mean, I, I can relate to this so much. I went through so much to to do all this to.

00;18;08;17 – 00;18;24;24
Victoria Facelli
Yeah. And now I see people like with all the tools we have for pumping who are like comfortable and joyful and pumping up their kids little league game inside their shirt and putting stuff into a milk chiller and like, yeah, having a great time. And it looks, yeah, totally different. And also might not be for you.

00;18;24;26 – 00;18;25;25
Dr. Mona
Yes.

00;18;25;27 – 00;18;29;09
Victoria Facelli
And also formula can be helpful.

00;18;29;11 – 00;18;29;23
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;18;29;28 – 00;18;32;01
Victoria Facelli
Right. Like so these are not finer.

00;18;32;01 – 00;18;40;07
Dr. Mona
With the terminology which I think maybe we could have discussed. What exactly is triple feeding for someone who may not be familiar with the terminology of triple feeding.

00;18;40;10 – 00;19;06;21
Victoria Facelli
Yes. Thank you for bringing me all the way back. So when we when we’re in those early, early days, babies nursing or pumping spikes, our hormones to tell our bodies how much milk to make, it’s a pretty sensitive supply and demand process at that point. Meanwhile, full term healthy babies are born with fat stores that give us a little bit of wiggle room while milk transitions.

00;19;06;21 – 00;19;26;23
Victoria Facelli
Well, our bodies do that process, and by two weeks we want them back at their birth weight and gaining weight on a curve. I don’t care which it is, but we want them growing on a growth curve and those are the two things that we’re sort of really focused on on those early days. Some babies are born unable to do that effectively.

00;19;26;23 – 00;19;45;16
Victoria Facelli
That could be a tongue tie. So maybe that parent is in a lot of pain with nursing, or maybe they’re not able to effectively make a sack that drains milk. So that could be from torticollis, which is tension in the body that can cause difficulty with stuff. That could be a tongue tie, that could be something that is undiagnosed.

00;19;45;16 – 00;19;49;07
Victoria Facelli
It could also sometimes just be a little time to figure it out.

00;19;49;12 – 00;19;50;27
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;19;51;00 – 00;20;15;01
Victoria Facelli
And so what often gets recommended is that you do a system where first you offer nursing, then you pump and give them a bottle either of what you’ve pumped and or additionally formula. Right. So the idea being that the pumping is protecting your supply. Wow. The supplemental bottle is making sure we’re seeing food go into that baby to protect that.

00;20;15;01 – 00;20;22;18
Victoria Facelli
We know they’re gaining weight. And then the problem is yeah yeah. We don’t have a plan to get off that road.

00;20;22;20 – 00;20;23;22
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;20;23;24 – 00;20;44;11
Victoria Facelli
And often, like if a baby is not eating well, that means that you’re either spent, you’re often spending a lot of time trying to get a baby who doesn’t want to latch to latch, or nursing a baby who can’t effectively suck anyway. So it’s taking a really long time, and or it’s causing tissue nerve damage and pain. Yeah, right.

00;20;44;11 – 00;21;10;05
Victoria Facelli
So like we’re doing something that’s not working for hours on end. Like sometimes, you know, it can take an hour to get a baby who’s really struggling to latch and do some amount of nursing prior to pumping for 45 minutes. And then depending on your comfort level with cleanliness, where you live, the water quality of where you live, your washing pump parts in between that every time, sterilize things.

00;21;10;05 – 00;21;29;04
Victoria Facelli
Depending on where you live in the United States, you do not need to sterilize your pump. Parts you do in Europe just need to say that forever, right? Yeah. So all of those pieces together, so rarely does a provider sit you down or like, okay, you live in Florida. You’ve got like a lot of air conditioning. Your house is very clean.

00;21;29;06 – 00;21;47;17
Victoria Facelli
Yeah. Pump parts can actually sit on your nightstand for eight hours. Like that’s not to cause an issue. Does that feel comfortable to you, that risk benefit because the World Health Organization recommendations have to be the same in Durham as deli and like. Right. Those are different environments temperature wise, housing wise, water wise.

00;21;47;17 – 00;21;51;11
Dr. Mona
Right now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors.

00;21;51;13 – 00;22;13;29
Victoria Facelli
So first we have to like person. So the first step in dismantling triple feeding. So triple feeding is just like this blanket recommendation. That’s like around the clock. Do a process that takes give or take two hours and please. And then also sometimes these babies don’t take bottles super easily. So a bottle is also taking an hour. We don’t have parental leave.

00;22;13;29 – 00;22;22;08
Victoria Facelli
Our spouses are back at work. Our kids maybe is in after school or older. Kid like this is change. Let’s endless two.

00;22;22;10 – 00;22;24;14
Dr. Mona
Hours. I mean like exactly.

00;22;24;16 – 00;22;27;05
Victoria Facelli
Easy. Yeah. And they’re like, by the way to do.

00;22;27;05 – 00;22;45;05
Dr. Mona
This every three. Yes, yes. Because they’re going to wake up in an hour like it’s like it’s, it’s if you do not have help, it’s already hard. But even if you have help, which I did and I did the triple feeding journey for Veera after being hospitalized twice, I was in the hospital, left and was readmitted to the hospital.

00;22;45;11 – 00;23;02;22
Dr. Mona
And after that second readmission, I was like, I can’t do this. It’s not sustainable. And in a miraculous way, she was actually a really good lature. And like she even with the separation. And I was shocked because I was apart from her for ten days when I was re hospitalized and I came back to and it’s like she remembered.

00;23;02;25 – 00;23;25;26
Dr. Mona
But then it was still becoming that my supply was so low because I wasn’t able to build it up because of the hospitalization that I needed better. Like I needed more frequent removal. And it was I needed the combination and it was not minimal. So I had to make a decision with my colleagues lactation consultant. I was like, listen, I love this, but it’s not it’s not fun for me anymore.

00;23;25;26 – 00;23;44;10
Dr. Mona
Like I’m like you said, looking out for the mental health. I am drained by being a I’m going to use the term being a cow where I’m literally nursing, and then I have to sit there and pump on the other side or whatever side or at right after you’re. Yes, I had help with cleaning pump parts, but then someone had to settle the baby down and then she was maybe clustering.

00;23;44;10 – 00;23;45;22
Dr. Mona
It was the I.

00;23;45;22 – 00;23;49;02
Victoria Facelli
Had to let go. And you’re not getting any nice time with her.

00;23;49;05 – 00;24;19;23
Dr. Mona
No. So you’re not. And that’s a key for me too. I’m like, when we talk about feeding choices and the mental health choices, what’s most important to me is obviously that the baby is thriving, but that what is the connection and bonding? I would rather have a mother give or family give, pump, breast milk or formula and be more connected with their baby than being so stressed with the nursing or so stressed with triple feeding or combo feeding, because that stress has no place in sleep and that stress has no place in bonding with the baby.

00;24;19;26 – 00;24;20;19
Dr. Mona
Yeah, I saw that.

00;24;20;19 – 00;24;21;09
Victoria Facelli
So it’s funny.

00;24;21;09 – 00;24;22;10
Dr. Mona
Yeah, yeah.

00;24;22;10 – 00;24;46;12
Victoria Facelli
If we let it be like if we let health only be one thing that we like, I see a decline in dry skin and GI infections with breast milk feeding right. But we’re not thinking about attachment at all. Yeah, right. Like for me it’s like, yeah, feed the baby. Like they got to be calorically in good hands. And then right after that is responsiveness.

00;24;46;15 – 00;24;47;11
Dr. Mona
Yes.

00;24;47;14 – 00;24;59;12
Victoria Facelli
Can you tell when your baby is hungry? Can you tell when your baby is full? Are you meeting that need because it’s that connection that’s like that’s what carries you all the way through parenting.

00;24;59;14 – 00;25;00;10
Dr. Mona
Yes.

00;25;00;12 – 00;25;03;22
Victoria Facelli
I don’t care if you sleep train. I don’t care if you bed chair. I don’t care what you do.

00;25;03;22 – 00;25;04;20
Dr. Mona
Yes.

00;25;04;23 – 00;25;17;24
Victoria Facelli
It’s the risk sickness that holds you. Yeah, that makes us feel connected. That makes us feel human. That is the beauty and joy of parenting.

00;25;17;26 – 00;25;18;21
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;25;18;23 – 00;25;41;01
Victoria Facelli
And if we take that away from people and then also, like, sometimes if a baby’s struggling to eat, they’re so exhausted from nursing and then bottle feeding that they don’t want to wake up at the three hour mark. So then you’re spending 30 minutes waking them up for 45 minutes trying to get them to latch, an hour pumping and like washing pump parts and getting settled to bed.

00;25;41;01 – 00;25;45;13
Victoria Facelli
And when exactly in that did you eat a sandwich?

00;25;45;15 – 00;26;09;08
Dr. Mona
Yes. Oh. Or just right? Yes. Or take a shower or do something that is possible. But we we when we do this narrative of it has to be the baby and the feeding and all of that, you don’t you forget yourself. And that’s why we see depression. That’s why we see anxiety. That’s why we see women lose themselves so greatly in this postpartum period and lose the joy.

00;26;09;15 – 00;26;23;28
Dr. Mona
I’m not saying that you’re going to get five hours of sleep and, the baby’s going to sleep through the night. That is not a reality. But there is a balance here of looking into what a person wants. And I think that I love when I talk to other, you’ll see who are looking at the whole body experience.

00;26;23;28 – 00;26;39;11
Dr. Mona
And the whole feeding experience is not just for the baby, but what it is for the parent. What is it for the sleep? What is it for your situation like you brought up like the second sibling, it’s going to look different. You have no other baby in the house. But what if you have two older kids? It’s gonna look different like one other kid.

00;26;39;16 – 00;26;40;14
Dr. Mona
But if you’re.

00;26;40;16 – 00;27;04;13
Victoria Facelli
Parent. Yeah, yeah. Also went through a traumatic birth and needs sleep. Yes. Yeah. Or is working right. Like none of it’s there. Yeah. So this is where I get a little off the map. And you, I don’t I don’t know where you stand in terms of like conservative like every evidence base, like super everything based in research. It’s so hard to research in lactation.

00;27;04;15 – 00;27;27;25
Victoria Facelli
So and so I find this study. Yeah. And like one day someone will find this sleep study that I read once and then could never find again. Where they looked at babies in the NICU and premature babies are often tube fed, so they have a tube to their nose, to their stomach, and they’re fed either formula or breast milk through that tube.

00;27;27;27 – 00;28;00;10
Victoria Facelli
And then they’re sort of gradually, as they’re getting older, also offered bottles or nursing to work on oral feeding. So eating with their mouth and doing that effort. And as they get stronger, as they get bigger, as they develop that motor plan, they’re able to do that. And what this research showed is that the babies who were offered oral feeding twice a day were discharged totally eating orally at the same rate as the ones that were offered oral feeding at every feeding.

00;28;00;13 – 00;28;01;09
Dr. Mona

00;28;01;12 – 00;28;04;06
Victoria Facelli
Now, I can’t find this frickin study, so I can’t say that.

00;28;04;07 – 00;28;05;21
Dr. Mona
This is definitive.

00;28;05;24 – 00;28;06;27
Victoria Facelli
So if anyone finds.

00;28;06;27 – 00;28;08;16
Dr. Mona
It, please send it to me. Yes.

00;28;08;18 – 00;28;10;08
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;28;10;10 – 00;28;13;07
Victoria Facelli
But it has also borne out in my practice.

00;28;13;09 – 00;28;13;28
Dr. Mona

00;28;14;00 – 00;28;38;08
Victoria Facelli
What I experience is that babies who can and want to nurse like you experience with zero, even when she was away from you for ten days, like there is a drive there. Yeah. When we pace bottles, when we’re being thoughtful about how we’re doing things. Most babies, if they can, not all babies can. My baby could not eat me.

00;28;38;08 – 00;28;58;03
Victoria Facelli
Baby can. They will get back to action. And it seems like offering something, offering a skill twice every 24 hours keeps them pretty well in that routine. The other benefit that I’ve noticed of doing it this way, and one day I’ll get the funding to actually study it, is that parents.

00;28;58;03 – 00;28;59;13
Dr. Mona
Have.

00;28;59;15 – 00;29;00;05
Victoria Facelli
Enough.

00;29;00;05 – 00;29;01;04
Dr. Mona
Points.

00;29;01;06 – 00;29;17;00
Victoria Facelli
And babies have enough bandwidth, where I tell people I’m like, and for those two feet, there’s ideally two, right? So like what I give my folks is I prescribe 4 to 6 hours of protected sleep. And I’ll circle back to that.

00;29;17;02 – 00;29;18;05
Dr. Mona

00;29;18;07 – 00;29;21;11
Victoria Facelli
6 to 8 pumping per 24 hours.

00;29;21;13 – 00;29;22;11
Dr. Mona

00;29;22;13 – 00;29;25;02
Victoria Facelli
And two nursing sessions.

00;29;25;04 – 00;29;25;20
Dr. Mona

00;29;25;23 – 00;29;42;03
Victoria Facelli
Where you are offering nursing now you may get to that nursing session and you’re like I am so fried from the dog barking and the other one yelling I can’t do this. And this kid’s like not interested in latching right now. Move up like you offered up your dog.

00;29;42;05 – 00;29;42;23
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;29;42;25 – 00;30;07;23
Victoria Facelli
Or it could be a really effective feeding where you feel your chest after and you’re like, oh, it’s like nicely drained. Cool. A data point, right? So like that can run a range, but we’re going to offer it twice a day. And if you have slept. You have some and your baby has gotten some rest. If they are working through some oral challenges that you actually have, the space to notice is this a little less painful?

00;30;07;23 – 00;30;40;12
Victoria Facelli
Oh, it’s interesting that this feeding went this way. I have the patience to sit here and try to help this baby latch for 20 minutes without feeling like I’m going to lose my ever loving mind. And so I think there’s also a real benefit to having the bandwidth to actually problem solve. So and then what I encourage folks is like, once we’ve figured out the root cause, is it just physiological low supply, is it, a digestive issue.

00;30;40;12 – 00;30;58;09
Victoria Facelli
Is it an oral motor issue? Like once we figure out what’s actually going on, then we can address that. If it’s physiological, low supply, you’re just not a body that makes a lot of milk. Then I say nurse however the heck much you want and supplement after that.

00;30;58;11 – 00;30;59;17
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;30;59;20 – 00;31;07;15
Victoria Facelli
If you’re someone who like, maybe you’ve addressed a tongue tie and it’s going to take some time for that baby to learn those new skills.

00;31;07;17 – 00;31;08;12
Dr. Mona

00;31;08;14 – 00;31;28;15
Victoria Facelli
As you noticed, like, oh feedings are getting less painful. I’m healing. That’s the other one right. Is like brakes so that your nipples can actually heal. So that you can figure out how much pain you’re in because like I don’t care if you’re wearing Uggs, if you have blisters all over your feet from stilettos the night before, you’re in pain the next day.

00;31;28;15 – 00;31;37;25
Victoria Facelli
Yes, yes. Right. So like if you have so much pain from latching that baby every three hours, you can’t actually tell anymore what a good latch or bad latch is.

00;31;37;27 – 00;31;38;19
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;31;38;21 – 00;31;48;18
Victoria Facelli
So if there’s a little time to heal there, you actually can get a better assessment. You can actually feel it’s going until you feel you’re like, hey, it’s not painful.

00;31;48;21 – 00;31;49;14
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;31;49;17 – 00;32;00;19
Victoria Facelli
You went from being a tight, tight little baby to total noodle arms. Yeah. And my chest feels nice and soft. I don’t have to pump and you don’t have to do a bottle.

00;32;00;21 – 00;32;03;19
Dr. Mona
So. Yeah. So talking about. And then we build from.

00;32;03;19 – 00;32;05;29
Victoria Facelli
There we add more as we go.

00;32;06;02 – 00;32;13;02
Dr. Mona
And so for that was the, you know, plan I wanted to see what your perspective was. You said to nursing sessions in a 24 hour period.

00;32;13;05 – 00;32;14;06
Victoria Facelli
That’s what I offer. Yeah.

00;32;14;08 – 00;32;22;01
Dr. Mona
Yeah. Six 6 to 8 pumping sessions in a 24 hour period. And then ideally trying to get a four hour stretch at night.

00;32;22;03 – 00;32;43;00
Victoria Facelli
But my pumping sessions, because I care more about mental health than milk production, which is my own personal prerogative. As I say, I want you to put 6 to 8 starbursts on the counter. Yeah, every time you pump you to Starburst nine, if there’s three Starburst on the counter, at the end of the day, it’s okay.

00;32;43;02 – 00;32;44;21
Dr. Mona
Yes, yes. Do as much.

00;32;44;21 – 00;33;05;18
Victoria Facelli
As have miracle alternative food at the grocery store. You’re going to be okay. It’s a lot. It’s a it’s a marathon, not a sprint tomorrow. If that does make you feel stress, if that does make you feel shame, if that does make you upset, notice it. Yeah, maybe talk to somebody about it. Maybe change what you do tomorrow.

00;33;05;18 – 00;33;11;01
Victoria Facelli
Maybe ask someone else to do pickups so that you can get one more pump in right to your.

00;33;11;04 – 00;33;20;27
Dr. Mona
And with your guidance though, is it that the nursing sessions are the do you recommend the family or the mom pumping after the nursing session? Or. This is separate like, you know, we have well.

00;33;21;00 – 00;33;27;08
Victoria Facelli
You get to decide. Yeah. So usually it’s after because that’s how we’re going to get enough time for that big sleep.

00;33;27;10 – 00;33;28;24
Dr. Mona
Yes. Yes.

00;33;28;26 – 00;33;58;02
Victoria Facelli
Right. So usually folks pump right after if that just like doesn’t work in your day. And it makes more sense to help pump an hour apart two times close together in the evening when the kids are in the bathtub. Right. Like, yeah, okay. Because at that point I’m not super duper. I understand that parents are super focused on, like enough output to keep up with their baby, but for me as a clinician, I’m just focused on spiking those hormones.

00;33;58;02 – 00;34;01;25
Victoria Facelli
So if I’m spending those home runs six, eight times a day, I’m happy.

00;34;01;27 – 00;34;03;03
Dr. Mona
Yeah, yeah.

00;34;03;09 – 00;34;18;29
Victoria Facelli
And so it doesn’t have to look perfect. It’s not supposed to be all the way around the clock. So I would rather in timing like at 2 p.m. you’re going to nurse and then like that may help you to write it out like that. But in terms of what I’m offering is like, look at your day. What are your chill moments like that?

00;34;18;29 – 00;34;37;19
Victoria Facelli
Nursing is going to happen for you, maybe at like 10 a.m. after you’ve had coffee and breakfast and like, everybody’s little chill, or maybe it’s 3 a.m. because that’s when your house is quiet and you actually, like, feel sort of more connected and your baby’s sort of drowsy. Snuggly like that just can look different for different people. And that’s okay.

00;34;37;21 – 00;35;12;26
Victoria Facelli
And so the other really big piece of this is protected sleep. So this comes from research. Again everything like patient’s hard to study so pull from other fields. But in mental health research specifically around complex mood disorders, is that folks who are experiencing anxiety and depression specifically kind of around like bipolar disorder things which while not bipolar disorder, most people who are experiencing postpartum complications experience both anxiety and depression or some combination there.

00;35;12;28 – 00;35;33;04
Victoria Facelli
So we know that one of the things that helps reduce symptoms for folks that actually do have a bipolar disorder is protected sleep. Yes. So with a newborn, we only have so much wiggle room we can do it that I can’t say like eight hours dead on. If you’re having a serious postpartum mood issue, I am going to recommend that.

00;35;33;07 – 00;35;39;21
Victoria Facelli
And I’m going to look your mother in law and your spouse dead in the eye and say, this is not negotiable. This is a prescription.

00;35;39;24 – 00;35;40;24
Dr. Mona
Yes.

00;35;40;26 – 00;35;44;23
Victoria Facelli
This is not a treat. This is a prescription.

00;35;44;26 – 00;35;45;15
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;35;45;17 – 00;35;58;25
Victoria Facelli
And we may need it for the spouse tip. Right. You may be trading off for for her sole parents. I’m like, is there someone who can come over at 5 p.m. and stay until ten? Like, can they come over after work? Right. So like where is there a four hour chunk?

00;35;58;27 – 00;35;59;15
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;35;59;17 – 00;36;08;09
Victoria Facelli
Where white noise is on. Earplugs are in. Baby can be in a carrier with a pacifier walking up and down the block. I do not care.

00;36;08;12 – 00;36;09;20
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;36;09;22 – 00;36;20;27
Victoria Facelli
But the rule is that no one’s going to wake you up so that, you know, you can go to sleep and you’re not seeing the baby. Like who? At what point is this baby going to wake me up? I’m so anxious about it.

00;36;21;02 – 00;36;21;15
Dr. Mona
Right. You’re not.

00;36;21;16 – 00;36;22;11
Victoria Facelli
Even.

00;36;22;13 – 00;36;24;12
Dr. Mona
Like, in the patient’s sleep. Yeah.

00;36;24;12 – 00;36;39;21
Victoria Facelli
It’s like no matter what, they’re not coming in for the next four hours. Ideally, your phone is in the other room, your earplugs are in, and you’re in full do not disturb mode. And then you notice after that 4 to 6 hours did you feel better.

00;36;39;23 – 00;36;40;16
Dr. Mona

00;36;40;18 – 00;36;50;21
Victoria Facelli
That’s important information. We should stay with the plan. Seems like your mood disorder or like your anxiety or depression are like in a controllable range or not present.

00;36;50;24 – 00;36;51;10
Dr. Mona

00;36;51;13 – 00;37;01;08
Victoria Facelli
If you wake up and you don’t feel better and you feel anxious, you’re having intrusive thoughts, you feel depressed. We’re going to talk to your provider.

00;37;01;11 – 00;37;02;11
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;37;02;14 – 00;37;19;03
Victoria Facelli
If you were given that opportunity and you cannot sleep, that’s when we need to go up to the next level of care. And I actually want you to call the 24 hour line of your birth folks and say, hey, this is what’s going on. I want y’all to know about it. And like, we’re going to make a plan in the morning.

00;37;19;05 – 00;37;42;13
Victoria Facelli
And that might involve medication. I’m on medication still from my perinatal mood disorder. I, I take an anti-anxiety medication that’s been really, really helpful for me. And when my daughter was born, I actually would take, Klonopin to sleep because my anxiety was so severe that I couldn’t sleep. And I was given the opportunity and I was really losing it with the sleep, but sleeplessness.

00;37;42;14 – 00;37;55;05
Victoria Facelli
Eventually I backed that down to units. And then I backed that down. But I think that’s the other piece is like sometimes you actually also need medication just to get the sleep. Yes. It’s going to help you heal.

00;37;55;07 – 00;38;14;14
Dr. Mona
You know what I found interesting in we talk about the sleep protection. I actually agree and and I agree completely that we don’t have a lot of research in the lactation world, especially in anything pediatric. But it’s unfortunate, but I, I had this a lot of postpartum issues physically. Right? I was recovering from multiple surgeries in and out of hospitals on tons of antibiotics.

00;38;14;16 – 00;38;29;02
Dr. Mona
And I also had a postpartum doula who came in and she’s like, Mona, I need you to get sleep tonight. You’re going to sleep for six hours. I’m not you’re not going to wake up, you’re not going to pump, and you’re going to sleep for six hours for me. And I’m not going to say that this is going to happen for everyone.

00;38;29;04 – 00;38;46;12
Dr. Mona
That night when I got six hours, my milk production skyrocketed, which means for the next few days and to come all of a sudden I was producing more milk. And I say this story because, you know, all the recommendations will say, well, you got to wake up every 3 to 4 hours, so you got to do this for me.

00;38;46;12 – 00;39;03;01
Dr. Mona
My body needed the extra sleep to be able to rest and then subsequently produce more milk. And it sustained. All of a sudden I was producing more milk. And I don’t know if you have any research on that or know about that, but to me, that’s why I was and then I and then I obviously kept it there.

00;39;03;01 – 00;39;24;18
Dr. Mona
And then I started to increase very slowly the, the the six hours or the seven hours or whatever to see if it would help my milk production. And I found a happy spot for me to find out what is my sleep quota. That allowed me to obviously not take my supply, and in a way, it actually increased my supply and it was fascinating to me.

00;39;24;18 – 00;39;42;11
Dr. Mona
And I it makes sense and describe, like I did have anxiety prior to having my daughter and I still had it. And I wonder, like you said, is it that my body just needed that rest? But also that rest really helped my body heal and my milk production went up. And I don’t know if you see that in your training or in your experience too.

00;39;42;14 – 00;40;06;00
Victoria Facelli
I haven’t seen that researched. And sometimes we have to rely on like our medical brains and what is physiological physiologically logical. Yeah. Right. Like if you have a patient who had surgery. And they’re like great I don’t plan to sleep for the next six weeks. You would anticipate surgical complications.

00;40;06;00 – 00;40;06;21
Dr. Mona
Yes.

00;40;06;24 – 00;40;13;02
Victoria Facelli
And very slow healing. Yes. And I know that our body systems interact with one another.

00;40;13;04 – 00;40;13;24
Dr. Mona

00;40;13;27 – 00;40;39;16
Victoria Facelli
We know that our bodies will shut down the system. Right. I have known sex. I have no other signs of low milk supply. But their body experienced shock postpartum from a postpartum complication. And their body was like I’m not making milk. Sorry I gotta keep you up. So the people for whom I see that most true are people who had a lot of blood loss, or for people who had surgery.

00;40;39;18 – 00;41;06;25
Victoria Facelli
So a cesarean birth, or for people who had a hemorrhage, those are the people for whom I think sleep is going to make the biggest difference, because your body has to actually make more tissue. Right? Human milk is yeah, that’s a lot of energy, a lot of hydration, a lot of work to make that tissue at the same time that you’re trying to make blood, that you’re trying to make scar tissue, that you’re trying to make new uterine tissue.

00;41;06;25 – 00;41;11;22
Victoria Facelli
Right. Like eight light is eight layers of us. Seven. It’s a lot of your body.

00;41;11;22 – 00;41;12;16
Dr. Mona
Yeah, yeah.

00;41;12;16 – 00;41;14;29
Victoria Facelli
I think birth is stressed. I don’t pay attention to it.

00;41;14;29 – 00;41;16;11
Dr. Mona
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

00;41;16;13 – 00;41;31;00
Victoria Facelli
Right. It’s like your body is working so hard. And so I think for this that’s like for me over time that like ounce or two of milk production every day. Is it worth not sleeping and recovering well.

00;41;31;02 – 00;41;31;28
Dr. Mona

00;41;32;00 – 00;41;59;15
Victoria Facelli
And you’re right that it makes physiological sense that more sleep would allow healing and other parts of the body, which is going to allow you to recover and then be well enough to make milk. And then different people have different storage capacities and different body. Yeah. And that’s part of it is to be like triple feeding is is this monolith that also doesn’t take into account that, like some folks can actually skip a pumping, you know, it’s your fifth kid.

00;41;59;15 – 00;42;00;06
Dr. Mona
Your milk supply.

00;42;00;06 – 00;42;08;11
Victoria Facelli
Is really well established. Like, you know, you have oversupply actually pump less. Right. Like to be nuanced in that.

00;42;08;14 – 00;42;28;06
Dr. Mona
That’s what happened for me. I started dropping sessions before official. When you look on other, you know, accounts and I was going down and I still produced and like you said, when I, when I got readmitted to the hospital, when I was postpartum, that is also when my milk supply went up because I was getting four hours uninterrupted sleep.

00;42;28;06 – 00;43;01;17
Dr. Mona
There was no baby with me. I was my baby was at home with, the family. And it was like like. And it makes complete sense. The fact that I had two surgeries, my body needed to create that rest, that tissue and really create it. And yeah, I and like you said, this is such a nuanced discussion and why it’s not such blanket recommendations and why I wish we had just better access to a whole, you know, a whole team of like lactation consultants that are not just lactation consultant, but lactation consultants that are kind of in your perspective of looking at the whole the whole family unit, you know, and I think that’s so,

00;43;01;17 – 00;43;02;28
Dr. Mona
so important.

00;43;03;00 – 00;43;44;05
Victoria Facelli
My hope is that as a field, we’re moving towards really thinking clinically. I think for a long time we were fighting with pedes to not just recommend Formula One. And I think now pedes is really bumping it back over to feeding specialists to fill in that space. I think we have to really rise to the occasion, really think critically about what’s happening and really build those tools and not be quite so focused on one way of breastfeeding or on the importance of breastfeeding and breast milk feeding, and instead look at ourselves as the foremost expert in infant feeding, and let that be as complicated as it is.

00;43;44;07 – 00;43;51;07
Dr. Mona
Oh, I love it. What would be your final message for everyone listening today? I mean, you got a lot of pearls, but what would be that take home?

00;43;51;09 – 00;44;19;04
Victoria Facelli
I think my take home is let your story be your story. Find the parts of your journey that you want to hold on to and lift those ones up and let the other stuff go. I often say good parents change their mind. It’s not about the fact that, like, well, I read the Montessori parenting book, and so I’m going to do Montessori and mom’s on call and I’m going to do exactly what Doctor Cyr said, and I’m going to follow all the rules.

00;44;19;04 – 00;44;30;13
Victoria Facelli
No, you know, I’m going to look at my life. I’m going to look at the baby in front of me, and I’m going to change my mind and follow what is working for us.

00;44;30;16 – 00;44;31;26
Dr. Mona

00;44;31;28 – 00;44;52;01
Dr. Mona
Oh, such a healthy perspective. I love chatting with you. I cannot wait to read your book. I cannot wait to connect on future education. I want you to be my mentor. You talk to me about your mentor. In terms of advocacy world. I just love where you’re coming from and what you’re trying to share with the world. Where can everyone stay connected with you, and your resources and also get your book?

00;44;52;03 – 00;45;07;21
Victoria Facelli
You can find me on the socials. Victoria Micelli, IBC, LC and and my book is available. All the places books are sold. It’s at your library. It’s at your local bookstore. It’s in the target app. It’s on Amazon. You could probably get it overnighted.

00;45;07;23 – 00;45;21;18
Dr. Mona
I will be linking everything to my show notes, including obviously, her social channels as well as the book, and I’m going to be buying it as soon as I get off this call before I record another podcast, because I cannot wait to dive into it. And thank you again for joining us today.

00;45;21;21 – 00;45;26;14
Victoria Facelli
Thank you so much for having me. It’s always so fun to talk to someone who shares so much of my.

00;45;26;14 – 00;45;27;24
Dr. Mona
Perspective, both.

00;45;27;24 – 00;45;30;06
Victoria Facelli
Professionally and my experience personally.

00;45;30;09 – 00;45;47;26
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And I love, like you said, going back to that first thing you mentioned about pediatricians and why we’re the way we are, I agree with you completely. I think the there needs to be such a recall, and I think we’re moving in that direction. I think a lot of the younger pediatricians understand that we don’t know everything, and that we need to use our resources.

00;45;47;26 – 00;46;04;26
Dr. Mona
Where I do see a lot of older docs trying to do things that maybe they don’t know much about. So and even for me, I’m very transparent in saying that although I am an I see I don’t have as much training in, I still see education as you do, or as my colleagues who do it way more hours than I do.

00;46;04;26 – 00;46;17;01
Dr. Mona
So I get to learn from you. I get to keep growing, and I think that’s such a healthy perspective, like you said, to not only have parents to always pivot and grow, but also just as professionals. So thank you. I love connecting with you.

00;46;17;03 – 00;46;58;22
Victoria Facelli
It was so great to connect. Yeah. And I don’t think we need pediatricians to all be ABCs though I love I love that we have ABCs who are, yes, engineers and dietitians and speech therapist. It’s about understanding where is your provider coming from, what background and what does their lens necessitate that they put first and I think as long as we’re all working together collaboratively and parents understand what is the role of their pediatrician and what is the role of a feeding specialist, and why are those different and where do they overlap and how can they work collaboratively is where where we actually pull this field forward?

00;46;58;25 – 00;47;18;11
Dr. Mona
Absolutely. And for everyone listening, if you love this conversation, which I hope you did, even if you are not a nursing pumping breastfeeding family, I don’t care. Please leave a review rating. It really helps the podcast continue to grow and I’m sure we’ll have victory on for future conversations about IBC. Sea life and newborn feeding. Thank you so much.

00;47;18;13 – 00;47;19;25
Victoria Facelli
Thanks for having me.

00;47;19;27 – 00;47;42;20
Dr. Mona
I love having fellow ABCs on my show who are supportive of breastfeeding journeys, but also realistic and not bottle or formula shamers, and Victoria is one of them. I will not give. Still sees a platform here who are not balanced in their approach. And so if you have any suggestions for other ebooks to join me, make sure to direct them to my website’s podcast page to fill out our guest form.

00;47;42;20 – 00;48;01;06
Dr. Mona
I love talking about breastfeeding feeding babies in general, so any supportive guests? I love to have, we need less judgmental breastfeeding guidance and I hope you can help me find these guests. I hope you love this conversation. Make sure to share our clips on social media, tag us and leave those reviews and make sure you check out my Instagram handle for a giveaway!

00;48;01;06 – 00;48;18;23
Dr. Mona
In regards to this week’s episode, remember to also check out these conversations on YouTube if you prefer, and I cannot wait to catch you all next week! When I talk to some awesome guests about the birds and the bees, and how we should be planting the seed of these conversations young. Stay tuned and stay well.