Infant sleep has become one of the most polarizing topics in modern parenting. In this thoughtful and nuanced conversation, I sit down with sleep consultant and family therapist Chrissy Lawler to unpack co-sleeping, sleep training, safety data, and the emotional charge surrounding these decisions. As a pediatrician, I was trained to follow AAP safe sleep guidelines, but real-world parenting, cultural practices, and honest conversations with families have pushed me to approach this topic with more openness and clarity.

We discuss what the data actually shows, where the gaps exist, and why shame and fear-based messaging don’t help families make safer decisions. Whether you co-sleep, sleep train, or are still figuring it out, this episode focuses on evidence, harm reduction, attachment, parental well-being, and finding what works for your unique family system.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Why co-sleeping is so controversial, especially coming from a pediatrician

• AAP guidelines vs cultural sleep practices around the world

• The dangers of polarized, shame-based sleep messaging

• Harm reduction principles for families who choose to co-sleep

• Risk factors that increase sleep-related infant deaths

• What the data does and does not tell us about co-sleeping safety

• The “Safe Sleep Seven” and its limitations

• Sleep training myths, cortisol concerns, and attachment

• Why parental sleep and mental health matter just as much as baby sleep

• The impact of sleep deprivation on relationships and long-term family dynamics

• How to filter social media noise and make evidence-based decisions

• Foundational newborn sleep strategies to reduce desperation and unsafe practices

• The role of resilience, stress tolerance, and “good enough” parenting

To connect with Chrissy Lawler follow her on Instagram @⁠the.peaceful.sleeper⁠, check out all her resources at ⁠https://www.thepeacefulsleeper.com/⁠ and buy her book “The Peaceful Sleeper: An Intuitive Approach to Baby Sleep”: ⁠https://www.thepeacefulsleeper.com/book ⁠

00:00 – Intro

01:15 – A Pediatrician’s Experience With Unsafe Sleep

02:07 – Why Parents Secretly Bedshare

02:54 – Introducing Chrissy Lawler and Her Work

05:04 – Why Safe Sleep Messaging Often Misses Real Life

07:03 – The Cultural Differences Around Infant Sleep

11:03 – Why Parents Feel Pressure Around Sleep Training

16:04 – What Actually Makes Co-Sleeping Dangerous

20:01 – Harm Reduction: If Families Choose to Bedshare

28:00 – Sleep Training Myths and Misunderstandings

38:00 – The Emotional Side of Infant Sleep Decisions

39:01 – How Shame Impacts Honest Conversations With Pediatricians

45:01 – Practical Ways to Make Infant Sleep Safer

48:02 – The Bigger Takeaway: Safety, Support, and Informed Choices

Our podcasts are also now on YouTube. If you prefer a video podcast with closed captioning, check us out there and⁠ ⁠subscribe to PedsDocTalk⁠⁠.

Get trusted pediatric advice, relatable parenting insights, and evidence-based tips delivered straight to your inbox—join thousands of parents who rely on the PDT newsletter to stay informed, supported, and confident.⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠Join the newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠!

And don’t forget to follow⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠@pedsdoctalkpodcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ on Instagram—our new space just for parents looking for real talk and real support.

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on the⁠ ⁠PedsDocTalk Podcast Sponsorships⁠⁠ page of the website. 

00;00;00;07 – 00;00;31;26

Chrissy Lawler

When we vilify co-sleeping and only teach these rigid, shame filled rules, the reality is that many parents resort to co-sleeping out of desperation. Yeah, and it’s this shameful thing that I can’t tell anybody about. Then a lot of the safe co-sleeping practices go out the window. So however we’re going to sleep, we need to do it as safely as possible.

 

00;00;31;28 – 00;00;53;04

Dr. Mona

Hey, everyone, welcome back to the show. It is Doctor Mona, and we’re here to talk about the hard, nuanced parts of parenting without shame and without extremes. And nowhere is that more important than in sleep. If you are a parent in the United States, you’ve probably heard the message alone on their back in a crib flat surface, no extras.

 

00;00;53;06 – 00;01;15;15

Dr. Mona

And this is important. The guidance comes from the American Academy of Pediatrics. And as a pediatrician, that is what I was trained to teach. I have personally seen the devastating consequence of unsafe sleep, and these have usually happened in certain scenarios on couches, falling asleep with pillows, smoking in the house. And we’ll get into more. For me, it felt best to encourage independent sleep.

 

00;01;15;15 – 00;01;35;03

Dr. Mona

It felt like the safest choice for me because of what I’ve seen and what I know. And at the same time, real life is complicated. I’ve had friends, both medical and not whisper to me that they are bed sharing, but feel scared to admit it. I’ve spoken to pediatricians outside of the United States where shared sleep is culturally common and openly discussed.

 

00;01;35;05 – 00;02;07;00

Dr. Mona

I have seen what happens when parents are so exhausted that sleep happens in unsafe ways, because no one help them plan for it. Give them alternative solutions, or approached it without shame. In my office, I discuss safe sleep, but if a family co-sleep, I discuss the risk reduction needed, which we cover in this episode. I also explain how, from a safety perspective, I prefer an independent sleep space, but I also don’t want parents to not be forthcoming about their co-sleeping habits and to not do things to reduce the risk.

 

00;02;07;02 – 00;02;27;02

Dr. Mona

Because when parents feel shamed, they hide it. And when they hide it, we lose the opportunity to reduce the risk. Today I’m joined by Christy Lawler, a licensed marriage and family therapist, mom of four, founder of The Peaceful Sleeper, a sleep consultant. She has served over 100,000 families worldwide and approaches infant sleep through both behavioral sleep medicine and family systems.

 

00;02;27;04 – 00;02;54;15

Dr. Mona

Her central premise is that quality sleep matters for the whole family, but how we get there requires nuanced safety and honest conversations. In this episode, we talk about co-sleeping, sleep training, the limitations of the research around SIDs. The problem with polarizing messages and how we can move beyond binary thinking while still protecting babies. Make sure you share this episode, because this is one that needs to be shared for all sides of the sleep discussion.

 

00;02;54;21 – 00;03;20;21

Dr. Mona

Subscribe and download this episode on a few of your favorites. This is what helps the show continue to grow, and after you listen, share the episode on social. Tag me. Peds Doc Talk, the PedsDOcTalk podcast, and Peaceful Sleeper so we can keep this dialog thoughtful and grounded. Let’s get into this incredibly important, nuanced conversation.

 

00;03;20;23 – 00;03;29;03

Dr. Mona

Thank you so much for joining me today, Chrissy, as we talk about something that’s going to be surprising to a lot of people that a pediatrician is talking about co-sleeping.

 

00;03;29;10 – 00;03;34;02

Chrissy Lawler

Yes. Yes. Thank you so much for having me. This is such an important conversation. Yeah.

 

00;03;34;02 – 00;03;51;09

Dr. Mona

And so I want to kind of backtrack as to why this conversation is important about co-sleeping, because sometimes people hear a pediatrician will never recommend it. And there’s a little bit of a back story behind this, because of course, I was trained in AP recommendations, which is, you know, we don’t recommend co-sleeping on your back, all of these things.

 

00;03;51;09 – 00;04;06;16

Dr. Mona

And then I started having friends who were having babies, and this was well before I had my own children. And a lot of them, whether they were in the medical field or not, were co-sleeping. And I was like, you know, I would tell them, like, it’s not the ideal situation, but they were like, it’s the only way I’m getting sleep.

 

00;04;06;23 – 00;04;24;04

Dr. Mona

And, you know, we try to, you know, we make it as safe as possible. And I was like, you know what? You’re my really smart, educated friend. I’m going to I’m not going to I’m going to let you do what you do. And then fast forward a few more years, and I had this very famous, highly followed pediatrician on my car, on my podcast called Doctor Imran Patel.

 

00;04;24;09 – 00;04;51;13

Dr. Mona

He’s a doctor in India. He’s a pediatrician. And we were talking about how common co-sleeping is in India and how he doesn’t vilify it. It’s part of the culture. And as I started getting more into the reality of parenting, the social, cultural, personal things that I’ve heard, I started realizing that if we continue to ostracize, vilify, co-sleeping, we’re not fully offering the full educational breadth of co-sleeping.

 

00;04;51;19 – 00;05;04;09

Dr. Mona

And I’m wondering what your thoughts are because of course, we know that there’s risks that can happen with co-sleeping. But what is your approach when it comes to providing evidence based resources safety? Where is that balance, where you lie right now?

 

00;05;04;12 – 00;05;46;13

Chrissy Lawler

Yeah. So I think it’s such a dynamic conversation, and there is no one size fits all for every child and every family system. And I think the polarized way that we talk about many issues ends up taking options away from families or making them feel stuck or shameful. So I would much rather have an open conversation where we can look at the pros and cons of various situations so that parents can feel informed and proactively, conscientiously make choices that are going to work for their family.

 

00;05;46;15 – 00;06;09;22

Chrissy Lawler

I generally, you know, I’m a sleep consultant. I deeply believe in sleep training. There’s really good evidence and data about sleep training. It is safe and effective. It is a tool that parents can have in their toolbox. And as a therapist I also recognize that we need to be looking at the whole big picture. Not one thing is going to fit for every single family.

 

00;06;09;25 – 00;06;37;21

Chrissy Lawler

And I think to your point, when we vilify co-sleeping and only teach these rigid, shame filled rules, the reality is that many parents resort to co-sleeping out of desperation. Yeah. And this shameful thing that I can’t tell anybody about, then a lot of the safe co-sleeping practices go out the window. So however we’re going to sleep, we need to do it as safely as possible.

 

00;06;37;27 – 00;07;03;15

Dr. Mona

Oh, and that’s exactly why I wanted to have this conversation, you know, and I I’m very aware that there’s, there’s there’s so many groups. Right. We have the very, very anti sleep training anti cry don’t do any of that. And then we do have the very anti co-sleeping. And I want to be clear that it is something that I know that if risk can be reduced and that family understands that risk if that’s what they want to do, I’m all for it.

 

00;07;03;15 – 00;07;25;26

Dr. Mona

You know I’m okay with it. And I’ve had very personalized discussions with my own families in my office about it. Right. And that goes against your official AP guidelines. But I’d also like to be clear that the AP website, which is healthy children, I think that gives a lot of educational website on their website they talk about and I want to say this so that we’re all very clear on where we stand here, that, you know, never sleep with your baby based on the evidence.

 

00;07;25;26 – 00;07;52;13

Dr. Mona

They don’t recommend it. And that’s an AP recommendation. That’s not an that international recommendation, but they also talk about when it’s more risky and when they do that. It’s a way of providing that education of like, hey, we know it’s going to happen. We know like we don’t want it, but we know it’s happening. And like you said, to your point, having the conversation about being open about it, I don’t want a family coming in and telling me lies about the sleep.

 

00;07;52;13 – 00;08;08;22

Dr. Mona

And then they’re doing it unsafe. They’re falling asleep on a couch. One of the caregivers is using drugs or medications. Right. Like that can make it more risky. I want us to have that open conversation so I can say, here are those ways that makes it risky, and I know we’ll get into that. But that is what you said beautifully.

 

00;08;08;22 – 00;08;25;06

Dr. Mona

I just think we we do a huge disservice by polarizing on either side, because I see it when I see pro co-sleeping accounts vilifying the sleep training and I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, I want to learn from you. I really want to learn from you. But but because I don’t know as much about what you’re teaching.

 

00;08;25;11 – 00;08;42;07

Dr. Mona

But I also will not stand for vilification of the other end and also the other side as well. And I again, I think it’s nice to have that personal perspective of like the friend, the amazing friends that I have who did it and also clinicians as well. And also talking to that doctor from India really opened my eyes on like, hey, what are we doing here?

 

00;08;42;07 – 00;08;56;02

Dr. Mona

When we are, we know that it can be a very cultural practice and like as long as they understand what they’re doing, we can support that and say, hey, how? How can we create good, healthy sleep habits whether you are with your child or you’re not? Yeah.

 

00;08;56;02 – 00;09;36;21

Chrissy Lawler

And one of the things too, that I think flows into this is optimal sleep education. Yeah, I’m working on another project right now. I have a nonprofit and we’re getting sleep resources and mental health resources distributed through the hospital immediately after women have babies. And one of our key hypotheses is that if we can teach quality sleep optimization techniques, not just the rigid rules, safe sleep will increase because parents resort to co-sleeping or unsafe sleep practices when they’re desperate.

 

00;09;36;24 – 00;09;57;10

Chrissy Lawler

So instead of just sending parents home with a to do list of don’t you ever do this, but also good luck, figure it out. Yeah, it sucks to be you. Let’s teach some safe sleep guidelines, but also teach parents some tools so that they can have safe sleep and good quality sleep.

 

00;09;57;16 – 00;10;21;20

Dr. Mona

And so one concern I see clinically is that when parents feel judged or fear being told they are doing it wrong, they’re sometimes not fully honest about how sleep is actually happening at home. Right. And that that is my concern. And that’s why I wanted to have this talk, is that that lack of transparency can increase risk. So how can we create these safer conversations where parents feel comfortable being honest about sleep choices so we can give clear guidance?

 

00;10;21;20 – 00;10;28;25

Dr. Mona

That includes book tips for independent sleep, healthy foundations, and practical risk reduction when co-sleeping is happening.

 

00;10;29;02 – 00;11;02;27

Chrissy Lawler

Yeah, you know, I think it comes down to really kindness and openness. Yeah. I think our we have a really interesting dynamic happening where there’s a lot of misinformation and topics have become very polarized and it’s very divisive and unkind. And so when parents feel judged for what they are doing, they stop being open about it. And so I really think the first step is recognizing there is not one right size fits all.

 

00;11;03;00 – 00;11;29;13

Chrissy Lawler

And we have to just look at the whole picture and take away some of the parents judgment so that we can know the actual picture. So I kind of have three things that I think are important for every parent and every provider as we are navigating this situation. Number one, I want to make sure that everybody is making decisions based off of good information.

 

00;11;29;15 – 00;11;53;01

Chrissy Lawler

You know what’s fact check? Let’s go to the data. Let’s come from a place of being evidence based so that we can make decisions with good information. I also want to make sure that the choices we’re making are genuinely benefiting the family system, and that everybody is actually thriving. And then I think we need to be nicer to each other.

 

00;11;53;02 – 00;12;13;00

Chrissy Lawler

We are all in there. We are all out here trying our best. And I really think that if we have those three aspects, buttoned up conversations about sleep practices and parenting practices in general and our kids well-being, we’ll be way more productive.

 

00;12;13;02 – 00;12;30;07

Dr. Mona

I agree with you completely. And I, I think that’s why I get I tend to get defensive of sleep training because, of that polarization that I see from the other side. But I’m also well aware that it’s happening on the flip side as well. Like meaning in my sort of you know, you must independent sleep, you must do this.

 

00;12;30;07 – 00;12;53;17

Dr. Mona

And it’s really, you know, it’s something that we both, we all need to work on. And when I have these conversations in my office and again, I don’t give general advice online about co-sleeping because I think it’s such an intimate conversation that I want to have, asking about the family, asking about risk factors. And so for anyone listening this, this conversation is not a hey, a pediatrician I listen to online is saying that co-sleeping is okay.

 

00;12;53;18 – 00;13;15;28

Dr. Mona

It’s more of hey, get the information like, like Chris is talking about from all of the information speak to your child’s clinician, make sure the medical issues that your child has and, you know, have that sort of healthy, nuanced conversation with them. So I often say that if co-sleeping is working for a family and they’re not asking for a change, the conversation still has to include safety, right?

 

00;13;15;28 – 00;13;33;21

Dr. Mona

Because that is something. As a pediatrician, I have seen the risk factors of certain co-sleeping situations. And so because of that, I’m coming from a lens of I don’t want to be fully like, okay, go forth and do it all. But I also want to be very balanced on, okay, what are the ways that we can do to reduce that?

 

00;13;33;21 – 00;13;44;16

Dr. Mona

So when families are going to co-sleep, no matter what to you, what are the most important harm reduction principles that they should understand if they’re approaching co-sleeping?

 

00;13;44;19 – 00;13;52;16

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

 

00;13;52;18 – 00;14;20;20

Chrissy Lawler

Yeah. So I have four main considerations that I want to look at and assess when we’re thinking about co-sleeping. First and foremost is safety. We have to make sure that it’s a safe sleep environment. Co-sleeping doesn’t mean that anything goes. So I think the most important factors to consider as far as safety are parents sobriety. Also, your general sleep practices.

 

00;14;20;27 – 00;14;44;27

Chrissy Lawler

I’m one that I sleep fully on my side on a body pillow, and so sleeping on top of something is a habit that I’ve been in for 20 years. That in and of itself made co-sleeping very unsafe for me. That was something that I even wanted to consider because I’m used to sleeping on top of something. Right.

 

00;14;44;29 – 00;15;10;15

Chrissy Lawler

Also little things like even melatonin or a glass of wine before bed makes co-sleeping significantly more dangerous. And a lot of times, parents just bring a baby into their bed where we have plushy, fluffy mattress toppers. We have big, thick comforters that is not safe or, you know, we have a baby swaddled in bed with us that’s also not safe.

 

00;15;10;15 – 00;15;32;19

Chrissy Lawler

And so and we need to make sure that the environment, you know, we don’t have babies that could roll off the side of the bed or get stuck in between the mattress and the headboard. So, like you said, you know, we can’t just say co-sleeping, do what works for you. And just go forth and enjoy. We do need to make sure that safety is buttoned up.

 

00;15;32;20 – 00;16;04;19

Chrissy Lawler

The second thing that I really pay attention to when we’re talking about co-sleeping is the question, is baby genuinely getting deep, restorative sleep? The reality is, a lot of times co-sleeping babies are stirring really frequently with their mom and dad’s moves, their snores, they’re shifting. They maybe are waking up ten times a night to nurse. And yes, maybe it’s less disruptive than if they’re waking up and they’re down the hall.

 

00;16;04;20 – 00;16;29;27

Chrissy Lawler

But a baby after a certain age shouldn’t need to eat ten times at night. So that’s number two. Is baby genuinely getting deep restorative sleep? Number three is really important. Are parents genuinely getting deep restorative sleep? Co-sleeping families often make the trade off that I’m not getting good quality sleep, but my child is and so it’s worth it.

 

00;16;29;29 – 00;16;51;25

Chrissy Lawler

Or I yeah, I’m getting woken up ten times, but at least I can just roll over and nurse back to sleep quickly if I had to walk down the hall. That would be much more disruptive to my sleep. Which yes, true. And also some independent sleep skills interventions could make that ten times at night be 0 to 1 times at night.

 

00;16;51;26 – 00;17;14;28

Chrissy Lawler

And so if mom and dad are not genuinely getting deep, restorative sleep, the family system is not thriving. And so we have to make sure that mom and dad are getting good sleep. It boosts attachment. It boosts your during the day. It boosts your relationship with your kid, your job satisfaction, your work productivity, your health, your mental health.

 

00;17;14;28 – 00;17;42;13

Chrissy Lawler

It’s really, really important. And I think sometimes we neglect prioritizing mom and dad’s well-being and their mental health because we’ll sacrifice anything for our kids. But some sacrifices are not worth it. And then lastly, I want to make sure that Mom and Dad’s relationship is thriving. If you have two parents in the home very often co-sleeping turns into partner separation overnight.

 

00;17;42;18 – 00;18;08;09

Chrissy Lawler

And I’ve been a marriage and family therapist for 15 years. There are a million ways that having babies comes in between your relationship, and we cannot take our relationship health and satisfaction for granted. I hear a lot of people say, like these years when our babies are little, we are all hands on deck and support of the babies will come back together later.

 

00;18;08;11 – 00;18;20;05

Chrissy Lawler

It’s not a trait like yes, yeah. We are pouring everything into our kids, but we have to prioritize our relationships and invest in them or we will lose them.

 

00;18;20;12 – 00;18;37;00

Dr. Mona

And this is exactly those examples that you gave is why it’s such a personalized choice, right? I mean, what are the factors? What do you want? Like, I mean, that’s I feel like if we could just ask that question to so many more families, like what are your goals here? Like what is your relationship goals? Do you want your child to be independent?

 

00;18;37;00 – 00;18;56;01

Dr. Mona

Sleeping. Using my own personal experience as well. I never cozy up with either one of my child, even though my husband wanted it so badly. And by the way, my husband’s an ear doctor and he was like, I’m never going to get this opportunity. He just loves cuddling and loves closeness. And I said, sweetie, I don’t trust myself enough because I’m a very deep sleeper.

 

00;18;56;07 – 00;19;12;04

Dr. Mona

I roll over and I just don’t feel like comfortable. There could be someone else. It’s like, no, I’m good, I got it. It goes down to a comfort, but I love that you just really brought it into again, I want to reiterate for the for the listener, you’re talking about the safety, you’re talking about, are we getting sleep for the baby?

 

00;19;12;04 – 00;19;32;19

Dr. Mona

And then you brought up, are we getting sleep for the parent? And it all goes down to those foundational skills, because I think there’s a common misconception with co-sleeping that you become this feeding machine, that you become this sort of stir, wake up. But what are we teaching them about the same foundational skills for longer stretches that we should be teaching an independent sleeper, which is pause, like wait.

 

00;19;32;19 – 00;19;51;16

Dr. Mona

Like they may not need to be fed, they may just need a stirring moment. And so I love that you’re you’re bringing that in. Because I do believe that, like any baby can be taught to sleep with longer stretches. Of course, there are medical issues that can prohibit that, but it becomes this sort of situation that we tend to say, well, this is what it is.

 

00;19;51;16 – 00;20;01;23

Dr. Mona

I’m just going to have to struggle. I’m going to be the smarter, and I’m just going to be feeding my kid and co-sleeping until we’re three month, three years. But what if that’s not working for you and no one ever taught you? The other alternative? Yeah.

 

00;20;01;23 – 00;20;26;28

Chrissy Lawler

And also and my clinical practice, I work a lot with it. It sounds like a joke, but it’s very serious. Is like the burned out, pissed off 40 year old mom, the mom that has lost her identity and her dad. And now she has older kids and my partner is thriving in his career. My kids are teenagers, they don’t really respect me, and I’ve lost myself along the way.

 

00;20;26;28 – 00;21;15;15

Chrissy Lawler

And now I hate everyone and it does come out later. You know, we talk so much about attachment security, especially the Co-sleep hours. You know, the the staunchly antichrist out folks really emphasize attachment security, attachment, security attachment. Yeah. And my argument is, yes, you can foster secure attachment through thousands of interactions all day long. And what I very often see, and I think I have a glimpse that a lot of other moms don’t, is I see what attachment security looks like when that child is eight and 12 and 15, and when we have burned out moms that are yelling at their kids and they’re swearing at their kids and they’re calling them names and they’re

 

00;21;15;15 – 00;21;44;18

Chrissy Lawler

belittling them, that is much more harmful for attachment. And so especially when moms are mean on the internet kind of my my first thought sadly is like okay, you’re being really mean to other people that are out here doing their best. I don’t know that I have a lot of confidence that when your child is kind of acting like an asshole, that’s that which they will.

 

00;21;44;18 – 00;22;13;15

Chrissy Lawler

Yeah, yeah. Which they well, like we have to as moms, practice being kind. Yeah. When we disagree with somebody because we will disagree with the people that we love at home. And we have got to be kind. And when we are chronically sleep deprived, running on fumes, giving everything of ourselves to children who will not understand and will not be appreciative most of the time, we are sure that we have a full cup.

 

00;22;13;17 – 00;22;45;09

Dr. Mona

One of the comments that I hear online a lot, is that what are we doing? Ripping. Ripping our children away and putting them in an independent sleep space? Because. Because biologically co-sleeping is what’s meant to happen. And I, you know, I, I that that phrase already gets me a really concern because again, we are positioning that this is a superior thing for attachment when as someone who has two independent sleepers in a crib, they didn’t take naps on us during the day, which are again, it’s not black or white.

 

00;22;45;09 – 00;22;58;29

Dr. Mona

You can have contact naps, you can have that connection. That’s part of actually healthy sleep is that they may need that. And that’s useful. But what do you what are your thoughts about that phrase about like, hey, co-sleeping is biologically normal and it’s what we were meant to do, so we should be doing that.

 

00;22;59;01 – 00;23;26;12

Chrissy Lawler

So I have a couple of thoughts and feelings. I think one, just because something has been done historically does not mean that it’s optimal, right? We can look back in history and look at a lot of things that were really toxic that yeah, you practiced for a long time. And I’m not saying that co-sleeping is toxic, but just the fact that humans have been doing this for centuries doesn’t necessarily mean that that is superior.

 

00;23;26;14 – 00;23;51;23

Chrissy Lawler

I think also our life now is drastically different than it used to be, especially our life in America where I don’t know how much maternity leave you had, but we many of us don’t have the luxury of having disturbed sleep all night long and then being able to take it easy during the day. We have incredibly high expectations.

 

00;23;51;23 – 00;24;17;29

Chrissy Lawler

We have kids that are in a lot of activities that are trying to make honor roll, and we’re trying to be at every single thing. And so we have so much pressure on us as moms. And in America, we have much less social support for motherhood. And so I love if co-sleeping is practiced around the world, that’s great.

 

00;24;17;29 – 00;24;33;29

Chrissy Lawler

But what are the other practices that support the family system around the world to account for? Mom doesn’t have a break at night. Mom’s not getting deep, restorative sleep like we have. If we’re we have to look at the whole picture. Yeah.

 

00;24;34;02 – 00;24;52;18

Dr. Mona

You know, and going back to obviously the the risks and stuff. I do have another podcast episode with Doctor Daria who’s an ear doctor, about the risk of SIDs. In general, obviously that doesn’t just include co-sleeping. It includes babies who are sleeping in an independent sleep space and have blankets on them and have, you know, bumpers and all that.

 

00;24;52;18 – 00;25;15;00

Dr. Mona

So remember, when we talk about SIDs and SIDs, sudden infant death syndrome, it doesn’t mean that co-sleeping equals SIDs. It means that it can increase the risk, but so can other sleep practices. You know, one of the biggest things that I, I’ve seen, and I always like to be clear, we already talked about, you know, the the wine use the drug, you know, drug use, alcohol use, even if it’s one glass.

 

00;25;15;03 – 00;25;32;02

Dr. Mona

Melatonin. You mentioned like, medications. The way that person sleeps is sleep habits. I love that you brought that up. Premature babies is one of those things in the medical world that we are, like, a little more hesitant with premature babies, just because of some risk factors we see with prematurity, with sits there. And so co-sleeping is more of a risk.

 

00;25;32;02 – 00;25;50;06

Dr. Mona

And one of the biggest things is not even in the bed. It’s the falling asleep with your baby in other spots. So it’s that co-sleeping on the couch. It’s that co-sleeping because you’re in a position that may cause them to go into a pillow or go into your chest. And so remembering that as like that is our concern.

 

00;25;50;08 – 00;26;15;25

Dr. Mona

And I also want to bring this because this up, because I want to talk about data, because I, you know, data is there, but the data doesn’t is not all inclusive because we don’t have data from other countries as well. But research from America shows that, you know, for the 7600 U.S sleep related infant deaths that we’ve seen in the last, the last time frame, I can’t remember what the time frame that they saw, that 60% occurred in a shared sleep space, but is that a couch?

 

00;26;16;00 – 00;26;37;28

Dr. Mona

Was there other risk factors like, I would love a study that showed me the the risk of of SIDs with a family doing all the things that we just mentioned, right? No. No medication, no alcohol, not in a rocker, not in like, you know, like where their neck can bend forward like this. Not on a couch. Like I want that data which we don’t have.

 

00;26;37;28 – 00;26;45;23

Dr. Mona

And that is why I say, you know, we don’t have that information to know that if you actually practice reduced risk co-sleeping.

 

00;26;45;25 – 00;26;46;08

Chrissy Lawler

Yes.

 

00;26;46;08 – 00;27;05;13

Dr. Mona

What is the risk factor there? You know, and that is what’s lacking. And that’s why I think it’s fair to have these conversations and say, hey, here’s what we know, here’s what we know can reduce the risk. This is something that I want you to make a personal decision about, knowing that there is a risk there, but I don’t know how you would approach those conversations, knowing what we know about the data, because I love that you also like evidence based information.

 

00;27;05;16 – 00;27;34;25

Chrissy Lawler

Yes. Yeah. I think, you know, one of the biggest benefits that I found from my education as a whole was this calling to be a critical consumer of information that, you know, I want to check the sources, I want to see the sample size, I want to see what the data is. And fortunately, and good data researchers are directly calling out what are the limitations of this study and what are further areas that we need to examine.

 

00;27;34;28 – 00;28;00;20

Chrissy Lawler

So that, in my mind, is what makes data the most trustworthy? Unfortunately, we very rarely see that on social media. People aren’t owning their biases. They’re not owning that. Like, here’s my sample size, here’s what else we need to explore. So I, I love the even in the way that you’re framing it, it’s acknowledging there are some crucial pieces of data that we don’t have.

 

00;28;00;23 – 00;28;24;03

Chrissy Lawler

And I think we would be benefited to get that data because there are a lot of people that are practicing harm reduced co-sleeping. And if babies genuinely getting good sleep, if it’s as safe as can be, if mom and dad are genuinely getting good sleep, if the parents relationship is thriving, if it is actually working for the family system.

 

00;28;24;06 – 00;28;49;12

Chrissy Lawler

I don’t want people to be scared away from something that could be a good option. And I love that in the reverse too, right? Like there’s a lot of fear mongering out there about sleep training. I think it’s widely misunderstood, and I fear that also people are scared away from sleep training when it is in fact a reasonable option that works really well for a lot of families.

 

00;28;49;17 – 00;29;12;27

Dr. Mona

You know, I’m very selective on what sleep consultants, sleep educators that I have on my show for this very reason. You know, I there are really good educators that can educate on like the foundational skills out there, right? Like we talked about like, and they’re educating about maybe they’re educating about co-sleeping, maybe they’re educating about that. But it is it’s something to me that I love hearing you speak about both sides.

 

00;29;12;27 – 00;29;31;24

Dr. Mona

And that is what this is all about, is that this isn’t a you’re superior. You’re inferior. This is about parents having information and doing the best that they know with the information and resources they have. And that is my mantra in parenting. Right. And you brought that up when you talked about the systemic issues. I know a lot of families in America may close us.

 

00;29;31;24 – 00;29;54;04

Dr. Mona

I may sleep train because of the going back to work, or maybe because of the jobs that don’t allow them to be sleep deprived. Right? Like my husband’s in the dock, we needed to sleep, train our kids. But I also very deeply believed in sleep training. Like it wasn’t like I’m doing it for my husband. I was like, no, like I know my my son and daughter, well, I don’t need to sleep train my daughter much, but like, I know my son is capable, like I’ve seen it clinically.

 

00;29;54;11 – 00;30;19;16

Dr. Mona

And I also like to bring back that clinical component because we have evidence. But as a pediatrician, you know, so when we speak about sleep training and when I see the vilification of that, I’m like, I don’t see any issue with attachment. And I’m not just saying that. I’m just I’m seeing it. And if I ever thought that this would cause any issue with attachment, I wouldn’t recommend it on the flip side, with co-sleeping, when I have those families coming in that are like, look, she sleeps in my bed, we make sure that there’s nothing around her, you know?

 

00;30;19;16 – 00;30;44;17

Dr. Mona

And I’m like, listen, I, I’m letting you know that you are making that choice. It just makes it so much more cohesive and so much more supportive of the entire unit. And I really appreciate that. And when we go back to that conversation of like, it’s biologically normal, the concerns I have with bringing it back to science and evolution and saying that this is what I’m supposed to do, it just backhanded shames the other side, right?

 

00;30;44;17 – 00;31;06;10

Dr. Mona

Like, okay, so what you’re doing is not biologically normal. You’re you’re removing your infant from you or in from your room. And that’s why would you do that? Like it’s this, this under it’s this backhanded, you know, like this backhanded sort of, you know, dig at this person. So that’s what I’m trying to remove a lot of when I see online is like, I’m like, no, like there’s nuance here.

 

00;31;06;10 – 00;31;28;17

Dr. Mona

Can we just talk about like this? But, you know, to be fair, Chrissy, like I said, it already at this beginning, me even having this conversation seems controversial because how can a pediatrician talk about co-sleeping? But that shouldn’t be the reality. Like, it really shouldn’t. It should be. And I know there’s so many pediatricians out there in the world that are very understanding of that same mind, my mind space that I’m in.

 

00;31;28;19 – 00;31;42;12

Dr. Mona

And I just wish that that could be the case for pediatricians as well as educators online. But it’s so hard. Now, let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

 

00;31;42;15 – 00;32;05;23

Chrissy Lawler

Oh yes, it is so hard. And one of the other things that I am seeing a whole lot more is the reframe of a crib being, quote, like a cage. Yes, yes, it like a crib is a wonderful safe sleep space. So cozy has no one their whole entire lives. Like, yeah, they are locked and trapped in a cage.

 

00;32;05;23 – 00;32;35;03

Chrissy Lawler

It is their sleep space. And so I think the way that we talk about these different dynamics can end up being so controversial when, like you said, it really doesn’t need to be. Let’s look at good information. Let’s make well-rounded, informed decisions from good information. Let’s take individual factors into account. And let’s realize that we can be invested in everybody’s optimal well-being.

 

00;32;35;10 – 00;32;49;00

Chrissy Lawler

And it might look different from family to family, like your optimal nutrition might look different than my goal of optimal nutrition. Your favorite way of exercising might be different than my favorite way of exercising, I don’t care.

 

00;32;49;03 – 00;32;58;25

Dr. Mona

Yeah, exactly. And you know, one thing that I I’m I’m curious if you know more about than me because you’re more in the sleep world is something called the safe. Safe sleep seven.

 

00;32;58;28 – 00;32;59;21

Chrissy Lawler

 

00;32;59;24 – 00;33;12;11

Dr. Mona

Is that something that. So I want to if you know about it like educate me on like is that something that is very common. Is there any evidence to that. I mean where is that coming from. Do you know the origins of that and what is it.

 

00;33;12;12 – 00;33;33;17

Chrissy Lawler

Yeah. So I’m not the total expert here. So I’ll tell you what I think I know. I mean, it was developed by the La Leche League, and it’s seven kind of tips or framework to have harm reduction to make co-sleeping, co-sleeping as safe as possible. So it’s a lot of the things that we’ve already talked about.

 

00;33;33;17 – 00;33;54;00

Chrissy Lawler

So no loose bedding, sober parents, a firm flat surface, no extra blankets. Baby’s not swaddled. It’s a full term baby without medical issues. No swaddle. Did I say that already? Yeah. Yeah. So it’s just seven tips for harm reduction.

 

00;33;54;04 – 00;34;11;05

Dr. Mona

And so I, I’m on the Leche League website right now and they have a song and I’m just going to sing the song. They have a song. I don’t even know this. Okay. It’s to the tune of row, row, row your boat. Okay. No smoke sober mom. Baby at your breast. Healthy baby on his back. Keep him lightly dressed.

 

00;34;11;08 – 00;34;30;03

Dr. Mona

Not to soft to bed. Watch the chords and gaps. Keep the covers off his head for your nights and naps. I like the song now. You said exactly. I just again I’m looking it up because I’ve heard that. Safe sleep seven I want to be clear with everyone listening that there’s again, no evidence to support, and that doesn’t mean that it’s bad.

 

00;34;30;08 – 00;34;46;19

Dr. Mona

There’s no evidence to support that. Does this actually, how much does this reduce the risk of SIDs? And from someone who is evidence based, a lover of evidence based medicine, it it doesn’t mean that we we can’t do it. It just means that we just don’t have the data. Right. And so that’s kind of what we went back to.

 

00;34;46;21 – 00;35;05;18

Dr. Mona

And the data that they have from the, from the Fletcher League is that even though many don’t plan to bed share a lot of breastfeeding moms, about 60 to 75% eventually will, which I know we know, that number is probably really valid. And so, yeah, I just wanted your thoughts because I hear that thrown out a lot in the ultra co-sleeping world.

 

00;35;05;18 – 00;35;20;12

Dr. Mona

Like the world that is very pro co-sleeping, anti-slip training. And I wanted to be clear that we just don’t know how much risk reduction that is. And so again, doing that sounds like a good risk reduction strategy. Nothing sounds outlandish to you.

 

00;35;20;15 – 00;35;20;23

Chrissy Lawler

Yeah.

 

00;35;20;27 – 00;35;22;17

Dr. Mona

But if we don’t have all the info.

 

00;35;22;19 – 00;35;39;07

Chrissy Lawler

It doesn’t take it down to zero. Yes, I think that’s where again, the polarized nature of these conversations can be detrimental if you’re thinking as long as you do the safe sleep seven your baby will be fine.

 

00;35;39;07 – 00;35;40;11

Dr. Mona

Yes. Correct.

 

00;35;40;13 – 00;36;09;22

Chrissy Lawler

We don’t have the data that says that. And so any any time we make any choices with our children, we just have to be informed of the risks, you know? Yeah. Teaching like how to ride a two Wheeler and there’s a risk that she falls down and crashes and scrapes her knee or breaks an arm like it. Yeah, but if I know the data, if I know the risks, and if I can weigh that out in my mind, then again, we’re all out here just doing our best.

 

00;36;09;22 – 00;36;38;19

Chrissy Lawler

None of us is going to be a perfect parent. And and actually, what I find incredibly relieving in the data is this idea of good enough parenting that you actually don’t need a perfect parent. And very often, in our quest to be a perfect parent, it actually backfires because we do over parenting behaviors and absolutely our kids ability to achieve some resilience.

 

00;36;38;26 – 00;37;11;20

Chrissy Lawler

It’s actually really, really important for our kids to be uncomfortable. Sometimes it’s fine for them to be lonely. Sometimes it’s great for them to be bored. We want our kids to experience struggle in manageable ways consistently all throughout their lives. Yeah, and what we’re seeing and a lot of kids, the kids these days, is this inability to cope with hardships that used to be manageable.

 

00;37;11;23 – 00;37;39;29

Chrissy Lawler

And so I, I love the work of Jonathan Haidt and the anxious generation and just kind of recognizing that we, like, we have to be giving our kids opportunities to learn grit and resilience and navigating hardship. And then the other thing that people talk about a lot in co-sleeping circles is this increase of cortisol in babies when they’re sleep training or increases in cortisol, and moms during the sleep training process.

 

00;37;40;07 – 00;38;00;03

Chrissy Lawler

And both of those things are true. They have found that in sleep training studies that baby’s cortisol increases and so does moms. But what they also found is that three days later, mom’s cortisol is back at baseline. And sometimes that’s framed as like, see, look, mom stopped caring. And I would say like, well, the cortisol was never out of range.

 

00;38;00;06 – 00;38;44;15

Chrissy Lawler

And what if mom just got confidence in herself, confident in her child? And this thing that used to be stressful no longer is. Isn’t that the goal? Yeah. Should be allowing our babies to experience some cortisol spikes, like when they get out of a bath and they’re cold when changing a diaper and they are not a fan of it when we are sucking boogers out of their nose, when they can’t get that ball that went behind that couch, it is good and normal and helpful to let our kids experience stress, that they can then also learn to down, regulate and find mastery.

 

00;38;44;17 – 00;39;01;04

Dr. Mona

I actually have one of my most popular, most downloaded episodes was actually one of my first episodes when I first started this podcast six years ago. I can’t believe it’s been six years where it’s called Cry Babies and the Truth about Cortisol in sleep training. And it was with a therapist, and we talked about the person who I spoke with does research on cortisol.

 

00;39;01;06 – 00;39;21;02

Dr. Mona

And so she was talking about it and we talked exactly what you just said. And it was a very nice conversation. So if you’re interested in that. So cry babies on my podcast. It’s a really good one about cortisol. And so, you know, I love I love that I’m chatting with you because you’re also on Lmfao. And by the way, I love to use my therapist as an alum of T, I think you all are like the goat.

 

00;39;21;04 – 00;39;43;14

Dr. Mona

But the fact that you’re an lefty, you obviously understand like therapy, but you also understand psychology. You also understand now sleep training and sleep education. You know, with your training as a sleep consultant. So there’s so many online debates around sleep, which can be very loud and aggressive, which is what we mentioned. And a lot of parents feel judged or scared into defending their choices or being confused on what to know.

 

00;39;43;14 – 00;39;53;09

Dr. Mona

So how would you recommend parents sort of filter through social media, noise or accounts to make sleep decisions based on safety evidence and what’s right for their family?

 

00;39;53;10 – 00;40;18;25

Chrissy Lawler

Yeah, so I kind of go back to some of the main consideration. And one, are we making decisions from good, reliable evidence and data? Are we acknowledging that there is no one size fits all, and I’m allowed to be empowered to figure out what is right for me and my family, and I can also give others the grace to do the same.

 

00;40;18;27 – 00;40;43;27

Chrissy Lawler

I, you know, quick side note, but one of the things that I often find, especially in how loud and polarizing it can be on social media, and I think people get really activated and up in arms when there’s the perception of a child being mistreated. And I always like to remind people like there are thousands and millions of children in this country that need your advocacy.

 

00;40;43;29 – 00;41;18;08

Chrissy Lawler

Sign up. Go help the children and advocate for the children that genuinely need an advocate. If we are shaming a mom online because she has a different practice, if her child is okay and they’re healthy and thriving, we gotta just let her be. And we need to support those moms. And I think just realizing that if we check our sources, check our data, and we genuinely tune in to find our best are right, most of the time we’re going to be fine.

 

00;41;18;14 – 00;41;19;01

Chrissy Lawler

Yeah.

 

00;41;19;03 – 00;41;41;28

Dr. Mona

I love that. And again, that watching for the polarization, outlandish sort of comments, the vilification of the other end completely without offering risk reduction strategies or, you know, the lack of nuance and lack of supporting data, I think is so healthy. And, you know, you’re right. I had done a video about how I don’t care if you sleep train because I know truly I don’t like your child is going to be okay as long as you don’t raise an asshole kid.

 

00;41;41;28 – 00;41;56;13

Dr. Mona

That’s why I said I’m like, just don’t raise an asshole kid. But that has nothing to do with sleep training or co-sleeping. That has to do with everything. On how you parent outside of those moments. Like you mentioned, that woman who’s yelling at you behind the computer screen, how are you approaching your child when they’re not agreeing with you?

 

00;41;56;13 – 00;42;14;17

Dr. Mona

Because I’m pretty sure you’re not giving them the compassion to not be an asshole, kid. I mean, let’s be quiet on this now. Tell me more about your book. I want to hear more about your book. What inspired you to write your book called The Peaceful Sleep, or obviously inspired by all the work that you do, and is there a section on co-sleeping in there?

 

00;42;14;20 – 00;42;20;13

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

 

00;42;20;16 – 00;42;53;06

Chrissy Lawler

Oh yes, I do talk about co-sleeping really is about evidence based practices turning down the noise on social media, kind of taming the Wild West and teaching parents how to filter through information and misinformation to find your rights. Realizing your right might be different than your neighbors, right? And so what matters is that you are finding what works best for your family.

 

00;42;53;09 – 00;43;28;20

Chrissy Lawler

And I also kind of weave in psychology and parenting practices that we can implement in the infant stage, things like resilience and believing that our kids are capable. I think a lot of times in the conversation we accidentally are saying and framing. A lot of my kid couldn’t handle this. They you know, we accidentally frame our children as incredibly fragile, and that leads to a lot of anxiety and learned helplessness that we don’t want.

 

00;43;28;20 – 00;43;59;22

Chrissy Lawler

So instead, as parents in these small, bite sized ways, we can find confidence in ourselves and find confidence in our kids so that we can promote secure attachment and promote resilience and the outcomes that we actually want in childhood. You know, there’s there’s a lot talked about and gentle parenting and conscious parenting. A lot of these constructs sound really nice, but they’re there’s not really a data evidence base behind it.

 

00;43;59;25 – 00;44;27;13

Chrissy Lawler

So where the evidence currently is, what we call authoritative parenting is the goal. That’s kind of the gold standard. And that is high warmth and responsiveness and high limits and expectations. And so every parent, I believe, sets out to be the best parent that they can be. So my goal is that it’s like a data driven, warm hug that says, you are doing your best, mama.

 

00;44;27;20 – 00;44;42;23

Chrissy Lawler

You are trying your best. Here’s a couple things to think about. And I just want you to get good sleep. And I’m going to teach you four different paths to do that and how you can be empowered to choose your right.

 

00;44;42;25 – 00;45;01;06

Dr. Mona

You know, it’s funny, as I’m in my book proposal process and guess what my book is about? Tell me word authoritative parenting because I feel like, you know, if you actually look up authoritative parenting book, nothing comes up. There’s no there’s no parenting book on authoritative parenting. So I was like, hey. And everyone keeps asking me because that’s how I practice.

 

00;45;01;06 – 00;45;21;02

Dr. Mona

I don’t have labels of gentle, positive, any of that because you that’s all under the umbrella of authoritative parenting. But the research has always been around the authoritative parenting, and that you can’t you can’t deny the decades of research that show that high warmth, high connection is so important there and high boundaries. So yes, it’s so funny that you brought that up, but I really appreciate that.

 

00;45;21;02 – 00;45;39;19

Dr. Mona

And I just think this book is so important, and the work that you do is so important. Now, if you could redesign how we educate parents about infant sleep from the start, what would you change? Maybe give me 1 or 2 things I know you’d want to change a lot, or would be those 1 or 2 tips that you give whether a family is co-sleeping, independent sleeping.

 

00;45;39;19 – 00;45;43;21

Dr. Mona

What would be those two tips? Unlike what you’d wish they would know about newborn sleep?

 

00;45;43;21 – 00;46;19;05

Chrissy Lawler

Yeah. So when we’re talking about newborn sleep, I think it’s important to very clearly teach safe sleep practices and reduction. And I deeply believe that also needs to be combined with some tools and strategies to get optimal sleep for your baby so that parents aren’t just desperate and resorting to whatever at 3:00 in the morning. So for newborn sleep, my four pillars are we’ve got to optimize feedings, get as much in our babies as they can, reasonably take at every feed.

 

00;46;19;12 – 00;46;43;23

Chrissy Lawler

We want to optimize timing. I think a lot of times we miss those sleep signals and then we have a wired and overtired baby. We also need to figure out the mystery of our little baby and figure out optimal calming strategies. How do I keep you calm, happy, and content as much as possible day and night? And then number four, eliminating sources of discomfort.

 

00;46;43;29 – 00;47;12;28

Chrissy Lawler

There are sometimes physiological or neurological things that are getting in the way of baby being calm and content, and I want to have as many resources geared towards that as possible. So if we can lay the foundation of a happy, thriving, well-rested baby, independent sleep comes later and is so much easier building off that foundation, I think you find your daughter didn’t even really need to train.

 

00;47;13;00 – 00;47;14;07

Dr. Mona

Those foundations, right?

 

00;47;14;09 – 00;47;39;19

Chrissy Lawler

Exactly. And that really my broader lens is like, congratulations, you. Yeah, your baby in a different way because you taught her the framework, gave her that support, and then in some way, shape or form, you stood back and witnessed what she could do on her own. And then you supported that independent learning process. So you did sleep train.

 

00;47;39;19 – 00;47;41;07

Chrissy Lawler

It just looks different with your son.

 

00;47;41;12 – 00;48;02;13

Dr. Mona

And I love that you mentioned because again, the feeding, the timing. Okay. Maybe that’s you know, that’s obviously going to be different on the baby in terms of amounts and stuff like that. But the calming strategies, I love that you brought that up because so many families it they forget that you’re learning about another human being. Right. So like what works for my son for calming him down was not the same strategies my daughter needed.

 

00;48;02;13 – 00;48;28;26

Dr. Mona

And that that is that temperament piece, because I also find that there’s educators that will say, well, all babies have different temperaments 100%, but it doesn’t mean that they can’t learn to sleep like whether that’s independently or, you know, all that stuff, but like, it’s learning. Okay. My daughter was a very cuddly sleeper. So in order to transfer her, I could not just do a transfer, I had to hold her for quite a bit of time, rock her down, get her very cozy, and then do a transfer.

 

00;48;28;26 – 00;48;47;17

Dr. Mona

She needed a lot of bedside reassurance. My son was not that kid. And so it’s one of those things that temperament also has to do with the level of cuddling they need. And like I call it the cuddle quota. That’s my term of like, how much cuddle quoted is your kidney? Because some kids don’t need a lot of cuddles, some babies need a lot more cuddles and that can be the differentiator.

 

00;48;47;17 – 00;48;57;25

Dr. Mona

But I love that you you bring those foundations. Well, my final question to you is what is something that you’re just that’s bringing you a lot of joy in your life right now or making you so happy?

 

00;48;57;27 – 00;49;23;27

Chrissy Lawler

You know, I’m in such a sweet spot with my girls. I have four daughters. There are 12, ten, seven and five. Amazing. It’s so much fun. Like, there’s a lot of time in those early years that yes, parenting is so rewarding and we have these really sweet, endearing moments. But I am having so much fun in mom life right now with my little gaggle of besties.

 

00;49;23;27 – 00;49;29;13

Dr. Mona

I love the gaggle of besties. Oh, thank you so much! And where can everyone go to stay connected and get your book?

 

00;49;29;13 – 00;49;42;15

Chrissy Lawler

Yes, you can find me online on all the social channels. The peaceful sleeper. The dot peaceful sleeper. Our website is the Peaceful sleeper.com. And then book has the same name. You can find it from all the major book retailers.

 

00;49;42;18 – 00;50;11;01

Dr. Mona

Will definitely get the book. I will be reading it as well, because I’m always interested in learning things that I may not know. And so I can’t wait to learn from Chrissy about, all her sleep guidance. Her her Instagram handle obviously is a wealth of information too. But kudos to you on the book and thank you so much for joining me on this very important conversation today, because I hope people can understand that we both are in this world to promote sleep, promote family, whatever families want, but also make it the safest possible way that we can do it.

 

00;50;11;01 – 00;50;13;06

Dr. Mona

So I really appreciate you joining me today. Yes.

 

00;50;13;06 – 00;50;16;22

Chrissy Lawler

Thank you for having me.

 

00;50;16;24 – 00;50;34;06

Dr. Mona

What an incredible conversation. I could have asked so many more questions. We could have discussed so much more nuance here. And if you have questions about sleep training, if you have questions about co-sleeping, please remember to ask them in the comment section of the post of the day of airing of this episode. We love healthy, balanced discussion.

 

00;50;34;06 – 00;50;55;20

Dr. Mona

We will not tolerate antagonizing comments. We will not tolerate misinformation. Sleep educators, pediatricians, and all of us in this space need to do a better job discussing both risk and reality. We have to be clear about safety data. Are there limitations or nuance? We have to be honest about the increased risk with bed sharing, especially in early infancy.

 

00;50;55;22 – 00;51;18;19

Dr. Mona

And we also have to acknowledge that some families will choose it or end up there, even if they don’t intend to. If we create an environment where parents feel judged, they stop telling us the truth. And when they stop telling us the truth, babies are at greater risk. My understanding comes from training in AP safe sleep guidelines, from clinical experience, from seeing heartbreaking outcomes, and from listening to families and global colleagues.

 

00;51;18;22 – 00;51;48;22

Dr. Mona

This is not about promoting co-sleeping. It’s about harm reduction, transparency and supporting families in making informed choices. We can hold two truths at once independent sleep space is the safest recommendation, and education must include practical risk reduction for families who are sharing sleep. If this conversation felt balanced, thoughtful and helpful, please subscribe and download this episode. Those downloads is what helps our show grow and share it with someone who needs to hear a less extreme take on infant sleep.

 

00;51;48;24 – 00;52;07;23

Dr. Mona

Head over to PedsDocTalk to join discussions on our latest post, tag the PedsDocTalk podcast and at peaceful Dot sleeper and let us know your biggest takeaway. Again, thank you for being open to nuance that is how we protect babies and support parents at the same time. I can’t wait to chat with another guest next time on the show.