In this episode, I sit down with psychotherapist Dr. Margo Lowy to talk about maternal ambivalence – the completely normal experience of holding love and difficult emotions at the same time. We unpack the difference between ambivalence and indifference, why so many mothers feel guilt for being human, and how naming these emotions actually strengthens connection rather than weakens it.

If you’ve ever questioned yourself because motherhood didn’t feel magical 100 percent of the time, this conversation will feel like exhaling.

We discuss:

• What maternal ambivalence really means and why it’s misunderstood
• Why loving your child and feeling frustrated can coexist
• The myth of the “perfect, selfless mother”
• How social media fuels unrealistic expectations
• Why naming difficult emotions reduces shame
• The power of community and choosing supportive voices
• How humor and lightness protect us in hard seasons
• Why responding instead of reacting changes everything
• The importance of modeling emotional honesty for our children

To connect with Dr. Margo Lowy follow her on Instagram @⁠drmargolowy⁠, ⁠check out all her resources at ⁠⁠https://drmargolowy.com/⁠⁠ and buy her books: ⁠⁠https://drmargolowy.com/book/⁠⁠ ⁠

00:00 – Intro: Why Difficult Feelings in Motherhood Matter

01:21 – Introducing Dr. Margo Lowy and Maternal Ambivalence

02:57 – What Maternal Ambivalence Actually Means

06:00 – Ambivalence vs Indifference: A Critical Difference

07:49 – The Myth of the Perfect, Selfless Mother

09:08 – Why Suppressing Difficult Emotions Backfires

11:01 – Letting Go of Perfection in Parenting

13:09 – The Moment You Realize Your Child Is Separate From You

17:08 – Do Fathers Experience Parenting Ambivalence Too?

19:03 – Why Parenting Plans Rarely Go as Expected

22:49 – The Power of Community and Support in Motherhood

29:11 – Social Media and the Pressure to Be the “Perfect Mom”

33:30 – How Accepting Imperfection Strengthens Parenting

43:16 – Naming Ambivalence and Finding Compassion for Yourself

49:22 – Final Takeaway: Why Naming Your Feelings Changes Everything

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Transcript

00;00;00;02 – 00;00;26;20

Dr. Margo Lowy

What about those dark, difficult feelings? What we tend to do is we tend to neglect them. Yeah. Put them and not really to think about them. And what what I do in my work is I focus on those difficult feelings because I find that there’s so much value in those feelings and really mothering is is about root is about all our feelings.

00;00;26;20 – 00;00;39;18

Dr. Margo Lowy

And in those dark, difficult ones, this is where we really understand ourselves and our children and.

00;00;39;21 – 00;01;00;25

Dr. Mona

Welcome back to the show, Doctor Mona here. And today we’re talking about something so many mothers feel but rarely say out loud. Have you ever been laughing and playing with their kids? One minute and completely overstimulated the next? Have you ever felt deep love and irritation in the same breath towards your children? Have you ever wondered what is wrong with me that I feel this way?

00;01;00;28 – 00;01;21;16

Dr. Mona

Nothing is wrong with you. Mother’s day in the United States is coming up, and maybe you just love spending all day with your kids. Maybe you want out and a day to yourself. Or maybe a mix. Kind of like myself. All of it’s correct and important to me. Today I’m joined by Doctor Margot Lowy, psychotherapist, researcher and author specializing in maternal mental health.

00;01;21;18 – 00;01;45;15

Dr. Mona

Her book, Maternal Ambivalence The Loving Moments and Bitter Truths of Motherhood explores the full emotional landscape of motherhood the love, the joy, the guilt, the resentment, even the rage and why naming those feelings does not make you a bad mom. It makes you human. We talk about that word maternal ambivalence and the difference between ambivalence and indifference. How these mixed emotions can begin even in pregnancy.

00;01;45;22 – 00;02;07;08

Dr. Mona

Why the myth of the perfect, selfless mother keeps so many women silent, and how suppressing difficult feelings can actually disconnect us from ourselves and from our children. We also talk about what she is calling melting moments, those small flashes of connection that remind you why you keep showing up, even on the hardest days. If this conversation resonates, make sure you subscribe and download this episode.

00;02;07;10 – 00;02;28;07

Dr. Mona

It helps the show grow more than you know. And if you share this episode, tag PedsDocTalk the PedsDocTalk podcast, and Doctor Margo Lowy Dramaturg followed. Why? So we can amplify this message together. Let’s get into it.

00;02;28;10 – 00;02;30;07

Dr. Mona

Thank you so much for being here today.

00;02;30;10 – 00;02;41;24

Dr. Margo Lowy

Oh, thank you, Doctor Miner. That was a great introduction. You kind of got everything in there, and I’m sure that’s going to nourish our conversation. So I’m really excited to meet you and thank you.

00;02;41;25 – 00;02;57;08

Dr. Mona

Well, I’m so glad you know your team had reached out. I always like to explain to my my listeners, you know, I, I sometimes pitch for people to come on and then sometimes I have a, I have a form that people can ask if they want to come on the show. And I think we got an email or a form submission.

00;02;57;08 – 00;03;10;18

Dr. Mona

I was like, this is such an important topic, and I love that word ambivalence. And so I would love to ask you, how did you get into the work of maternal ambivalence? And why is that word so powerful in the work that you do?

00;03;10;20 – 00;03;41;04

Dr. Margo Lowy

How I got into it was interesting story. I did, I, I wanted to find something about mothering that is that was different. And this was in the, the early 2000 when I did a, I did a master’s in 1997 on infertility. And then I worked, I work as a psychotherapist and my, my third child was just entering her her last year of school.

00;03;41;05 – 00;04;14;27

Dr. Margo Lowy

So I really wanted to be around for her. And so I decided that I wanted to do my PhD, and I was scouting around for something a little different about mothering because the field is, as we know, saturated. And I was looking and looking and I found a book by Doctor Rosica Parker about maternal ambivalence. And I decided this was such a great topic, and she was talking about her for her book was called Mother Love, Mother Hate originally.

00;04;15;03 – 00;04;45;17

Dr. Margo Lowy

And then she changed the she changed the title. And this is really what what grabbed me about her work was that she was delving into something that we don’t really talk about, which is the difficult feelings of mothering. And when I saw her book, I thought, yeah, that’s it. So I did. I did a lot of work around that area and where I am now with with my latest book is I’m trying.

00;04;45;21 – 00;05;18;29

Dr. Margo Lowy

I’m reframing mothering, and I’m disrupting mothering. In the what, what I want to do is I want to encourage mothers not only to engage with all their feelings and loving feelings and their bitter feelings, their rage and their happiness, their isolation and, getting getting together with other people. I want to, encourage mothers and to normalize the fact that we have all these feelings.

00;05;19;01 – 00;05;51;25

Dr. Margo Lowy

Not only that, but I really what my work is really also about is what about those, difficult feelings? What we tend to do is we tend to neglect them. Yeah. Put them and not really to think about them. And what what I do in my work is I focus on those difficult feelings because I find that there’s so much value in those feelings and really mothering thing is, is about is about all our feelings.

00;05;51;25 – 00;06;27;09

Dr. Margo Lowy

And in those dark, difficult ones, this is where we really understand ourselves and our children. And these feelings are not something to be fixed. There’s something that we need to learn from. So that’s really what what I’m talking about. So I want to normalize all these feelings in a processed way. That’s that’s that’s what it is. And ambivalence is such an interesting concept because ambivalence is really misunderstood when we think about ambivalence.

00;06;27;10 – 00;07;00;11

Dr. Margo Lowy

First of all, people often, confusing confuse it with indifference. I think it’s because they’re longish words. They’ve got the same number of letters, but indifference is so different. Indifference is a cutting off. Yeah. When we’re as mothers, we can’t stand it anymore. So difficult. And we cut off ambivalence is something so different. Ambivalence encourages us to keep engaged, to keep connected with our feelings and our children.

00;07;00;14 – 00;07;22;22

Dr. Margo Lowy

And that’s the difference. Also, ambivalence is sometimes blended feelings, mixed feelings. That just doesn’t give it the power much. How I see ambivalence is something that’s really able to connect us and connect us with our joyful feelings about mothering and the very dark, difficult ones.

00;07;22;26 – 00;07;48;24

Dr. Mona

I love that you differentiated those two terms, and that is why, you know, I think that’s such a powerful way to open this episode, that difference between ambivalence and indifference. Because I hear that all the time with people, without people having to define those words. Right. The and I think we’ll talk about how that guilt shows up because we feel like if we’re feeling ambivalent, which is completely healthy, that then I’m not a loving mother, I’m that I’m indifferent, which is what is not the case here.

00;07;48;26 – 00;08;11;00

Dr. Mona

And you know, my show here is a parenting podcast. So of course I don’t have just mothers listening. I have fathers, I have other caregivers. I maybe have childhood educators that may not be parents, but the reason why I wanted you on the show is that so many of my listeners are women, or have mothers in their life, that are going to be feeling these feelings.

00;08;11;00 – 00;08;31;20

Dr. Mona

And so I think normalizing it is so key and it’s so interesting to me, Doctor Margo, because in parenting we talk so much about, oh, King, the feeling, right, that all feelings are normal, that your child is going to have these big feelings of sadness, fear, frustration. Maybe they’ll have some resentment in the future or guilt in the future.

00;08;31;22 – 00;08;54;04

Dr. Mona

That’s something that’s very valid. These are human emotions. Yet as mothers, we sometimes forget to look after ourselves and the very normal feelings. And you mentioned it beautifully that so many of us were raised with the belief that good mothers are selfless, always joyful, never conflicted, that I have to be this always present, joyful person in my child’s life.

00;08;54;07 – 00;09;08;18

Dr. Mona

And in that sort of mentality. What are some of the hidden impacts of repressing more difficult emotions like anger, resentment, and why are you on this mission to normalize these feelings so that women feel more seen.

00;09;08;20 – 00;09;36;27

Dr. Margo Lowy

When you say that? That’s a very important part of my work. And what what comes to mind straight away is we have to be genuine for ourselves and for our children. We all know as moms, our children know exactly what’s going on. If we’re not being honest about ourselves, they pick it up straight away and they really. Yeah, that’s that’s a big part of it.

00;09;36;29 – 00;10;02;17

Dr. Margo Lowy

Because really, what we want to teach our children is it’s okay to have these feelings. And although we don’t have to, we don’t have to go into detail with our children exactly how we feel. I think we need to market and to say, today I’m feeling a little off. I’m feeling a little overwhelmed, mom, I’m still here, but I might need a little bit of time together myself.

00;10;02;17 – 00;10;31;08

Dr. Margo Lowy

I’m a bit irritated just to of course, to do it at a level that’s appropriate for their age, but to to teach them that it’s okay to have all these feelings. But of course, more importantly than that, is for us to be truthful to ourselves and that it’s we are human beings and there’s something about when we become mothers that we think that we’re going to be perfect.

00;10;31;11 – 00;11;01;03

Dr. Margo Lowy

Yeah, it’s such a myth, and it’s actually really funny when you think about it, because why would we be perfect? Why would we want to be perfect? But there is something in us. We collude with it and in society that we are, as you said, we’re meant to be selfless. We’re meant to be 24 seven on. And it’s like crazy that we that we think about our mothering like that, but we do.

00;11;01;03 – 00;11;45;20

Dr. Margo Lowy

And there is something about us in mothers. As mothers, we need to think about this because we’re human. And in order to kind of, as I say, show up every day, which we have to do as mothers. And we do. We have to give ourselves a break. We’ve got to actually be okay with being what I call enough, which means that we we try our best, but we understand that mothering is messy and interrupted and loving and that we all, as mums, do the best that we can, but we actually muddle through.

00;11;45;23 – 00;12;12;22

Dr. Margo Lowy

And the other part of it, which is so core to what I do, is that we have to see our mothering as making mistake and learning from it and making mistakes and learning because that’s really the only way that we’re going to, we’re going to learn about ourselves from our own lived experience. So in order to do that, we can’t see ourselves as perfect.

00;12;12;28 – 00;12;41;11

Dr. Margo Lowy

We need to see ourselves as human and that we make mistakes. And that is what it is. That’s what all life is about. But with mothering, it’s so important because every day we have these, we have these almost tests, tests of ourselves. And we need we need to how do we pass these tests? We don’t pass them by by being perfect, and we don’t pass them by being critical of ourselves.

00;12;41;15 – 00;13;09;09

Dr. Margo Lowy

We pass them by being okay with what we do and and seeing what how we might like make how we might want to make it better next time. That’s how we learn. And I think if we if we do, if we also are able to pat ourselves on the back when we do something positive, that’s good. And as mothers, we’re not good at that.

00;13;09;12 – 00;13;34;04

Dr. Margo Lowy

Yeah, we kind of get on to the next thing instead of like saying to ourselves, that was really good. Yeah, that will and we don’t do that enough. And also, while I’m talking to you, I’m going back also to what, to what really pushed me to write this book when I, when I first became a mum nearly 45 years ago.

00;13;34;05 – 00;13;54;08

Dr. Margo Lowy

Well, you know. Yeah, it was a long time ago. Yeah. I kind of thought. I thought a lot about mother, what mothering would mean to me. And I had this illusion that it would be a sense of union with the longed for child, and it would be wonderful. And he and that my child would be part of me.

00;13;54;10 – 00;14;22;05

Dr. Margo Lowy

And I so clearly remember when my first child was about probably about 18 months, I realized he was actually separate from me, and it was a bit of a shock. Yeah, I realized he’s got his own personality and I think and his own ways. And I think that part of this for me is recognizing that our children are different, and that’s okay.

00;14;22;07 – 00;14;44;01

Dr. Margo Lowy

And so part of writing this book was to normalize all these feelings and also to act as a guide for new mums, because I would have liked that book. I would have liked a book at that time that dispelled some of the myths that we talked about, about mothering, that we need to be selfless, that we need to be all compassionate.

00;14;44;03 – 00;15;12;29

Dr. Margo Lowy

The truth is, we are selfless and we’re not selfish and we’re not selfless where we’re, compassionate. Yeah. And we’re not compassionate. We have guilt and we don’t have guilt. We have all these emotions, and they’re all right, and they’re all else. And we really need to claim them. So this book is about encouraging us all as mothers to claim these feelings.

00;15;13;02 – 00;15;58;04

Dr. Margo Lowy

And now that I’m a little older, I really wanted to write this book for you for all mums, because it goes along the whole continuum of mothering, I think when you when one is, at the early mothering stages, it is more difficult. Yeah, it’s like a shock. But at all stages in mothering, we’re all learning and and as a grandmother now, I’m still learning and I’m still I’m in awe, really at the moment, watching my daughter in laws mother, their children and I really, I really think it’s wonderful to watch them and not to put my ways of mothering onto them, but really to learn from them.

00;15;58;10 – 00;16;22;23

Dr. Margo Lowy

And sometimes it’s a little scary because, like, yeah, I’ve done that. Well, I couldn’t have being that patient or that be like that, and that’s okay. But it’s like learning about mothering is such, it it’s it just it’s it just continues and continues and continues. And whenever I speak to people, I just learn more.

00;16;22;26 – 00;16;46;00

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show. Oh well. I love being a forever learner and I can tell that. And I love that you’re providing this personal experience. You’re becoming a mother 45 years ago, but also the story you mentioned about, other leaders in this area and other other books that have been out there and we’re still having these conversations.

00;16;46;00 – 00;17;03;24

Dr. Mona

You know, I still feel like the work that you’re doing is important. And obviously the book that you wrote is that is valuable. But why do we think that this still exists and especially for mothers? Do we think that fathers are more okay feeling ambivalent and culturally normal? Or where do you think this sort of friction is lying?

00;17;03;24 – 00;17;08;13

Dr. Mona

Or why we still need to do this work? Generations have passed and it’s still an issue.

00;17;08;15 – 00;17;39;29

Dr. Margo Lowy

I think that first of all, let me go to the fathers. Yeah. Oh yeah. I think that many people have asked me to. Fathers have ambivalence. And it’s so fascinating. I had a launch for my book in Australia, and the first four questions after I, opened and talked about my book were from men. So I think, I think that men kind of may feel a bit excluded and who’s going to write their book.

00;17;40;05 – 00;18;06;00

Dr. Margo Lowy

And I think this is really important. I think that men would have feelings, they would have joyful feelings and difficult feelings. It’s just that I think for a mother, whether you bare your child, repair your child yourself, or if you just if you don’t bear the child but you rear the child, there’s some thing about being a mother.

00;18;06;00 – 00;18;37;24

Dr. Margo Lowy

Well, if if I talk about, someone who’s born the child themselves. Such, it’s such a unbelievable bond that you that you have with this child. You, you’re pregnant with the child and you go through these feelings while you’re going through your pregnancy. There’s feelings of wonderment and there’s also difficulty. You have morning sickness and you might be exhausted and you kind of wondering what’s happening to, to your body.

00;18;38;00 – 00;19;03;24

Dr. Margo Lowy

You kind of know. But until you actually experience that, you don’t know. And then there’s the experience of birth. And sometimes that’s wonderful. And often that’s really difficult and really traumatic. And then you’re thrown in to the mothering. And the thing is, we kind of we don’t we don’t really get the heads up, oh, what is what this really is.

00;19;03;26 – 00;19;30;04

Dr. Margo Lowy

And even the idea of a birth plan, the idea that it’s good. Okay. I think that we do, you know, mums today, especially a given a birth plan and they give them permission not to actually go with the birth plan. But even the thought that there’s a plan about birth is like, it amazes me because really, the plan is we need to go with whatever happens, right?

00;19;30;09 – 00;19;55;10

Dr. Margo Lowy

It’s it’s the same with mothering. But mothering plan is, yeah, we need to go with it. We need to flow with it. And that’s the other very important part of my work is we have these rigid ideals about how it’s going to be, but what what the real messages, let’s flow with it. And every and I don’t know how many children you have, whether you have one or more two.

00;19;55;11 – 00;19;59;16

Dr. Margo Lowy

Yeah. Okay. So you would realize that each child is different.

00;19;59;17 – 00;20;01;00

Dr. Mona

Absolutely.

00;20;01;02 – 00;20;25;26

Dr. Margo Lowy

First you’re different at every stage. Yep. And you’re we all facing different issues at every stage. And the other thing is every child is different. And that’s what’s so wonderful. But we and we have to adjust to every different child and to every situation. So how can we have rigid ways of dealing with them? We just muddling through and doing the best we can.

00;20;25;28 – 00;20;44;22

Dr. Margo Lowy

And I think that that’s also such an important message for mums that we are all muddling through, that we none of us have the answer, and that’s what’s so wonderful about it. But equally, it’s scary because there is no real, guide.

00;20;44;25 – 00;20;45;17

Dr. Mona

Absolutely.

00;20;45;22 – 00;20;50;09

Dr. Margo Lowy

We do it and we just have to know that that’s okay.

00;20;50;11 – 00;21;10;02

Dr. Mona

And I and I love that, you know, you’ve mentioned that twice already, which I think is so powerful about having to learn as we go. And I think part of that is how we become better at what we do. Right? It’s like it’s like a job like and I, I’m not saying obviously this is one of the hardest jobs we have, but like in a corporate job or in any other job, you’re not going to keep asking someone to help you with every little thing, right?

00;21;10;02 – 00;21;35;23

Dr. Mona

You’re going to ask for the major help from someone, maybe. Like if you’re stuck, but you’re going to learn through trial and error. You’re going to learn through failure. You’re going to learn through, oh, that didn’t work. But sticking to your value system, right. And I, as someone who educates about child health development and parenting, I am very aware and cognizant of the fact that I don’t want to give every step by step script to a family and feel like they have to say the script and all my little scripts.

00;21;35;23 – 00;21;55;08

Dr. Mona

I always put a little disclaimer. I’m like, if this doesn’t feel natural to you, don’t say it because it’s going to be very obvious. And two, I want you to think about the value that you’re bringing in this sort of script versus the actual words like, what is it that we’re trying to embody here for the child? And I love that you said that because I completely agree, being younger in this sort of parenting journey.

00;21;55;08 – 00;22;11;01

Dr. Mona

I have a five and a half year old and a two year old at the time of this recording that I’m even myself. Knowing parenting and what I want, there are many moments where I turn to my husband and I’m like, what are we going to do in this situation? There’s no book, there’s no one, there’s nobody I’m messaging.

00;22;11;04 – 00;22;41;07

Dr. Mona

Nothing’s happening there. But it’s that moment of us figuring it out or me figuring it out alone. If my husband’s not there or he doesn’t have any idea what to do, that is when you start to get that experience. And I, I love that you’re bringing that up with the wisdom of having 45 years of mothering experience, but also your work in maternal ambivalence, because it’s through that that I also think when you start to pivot, that you start to become okay with failure, with the fact that things aren’t always going to be perfect because you’re doing it every day and learning that everything’s fine.

00;22;41;11 – 00;22;49;03

Dr. Mona

My kids okay, I’m okay. But if you’re not okay with that failure, then it becomes really hard to do that and feel comfortable in that discomfort.

00;22;49;05 – 00;23;12;09

Dr. Margo Lowy

That’s right. And when you were just talking, two things came to my mind. First of all, when you talked about your husband and one of the one of my main, one of my main talking points is how important it is for mums at any stage, but particularly in the early part of the mothering, is to have a support system around them.

00;23;12;11 – 00;23;36;07

Dr. Margo Lowy

And that means someone that people that give you energy, that don’t deplete you. Yeah, but that don’t tell you what to do. But but have your back. And I remember it was a long time ago. It was also 44 years ago. What happened in the in the old days there was no cell phones then. Okay. And what what I did as a young mum, I was pretty young.

00;23;36;07 – 00;24;06;27

Dr. Margo Lowy

I was 23 at that time, nearly 24. And what we would do is we had a small, what we call playgroup with about maybe 5 or 6 of us. It was my sister, a few family friends, and we would sit around every week in someone else’s kitchen and just talk and talk about our problems or talk about feeding, talk about who was working, who wasn’t working, but it was so organic and it was so reassuring.

00;24;06;29 – 00;24;25;09

Dr. Margo Lowy

And it was so yeah, it was wholesome. Yeah. And I think today I’m just going to go a little bit off track. I think the social media really. Oh it’s wonderful. Don’t get me wrong. If we didn’t have all this, technology, you and I would not be talking.

00;24;25;09 – 00;24;27;11

Dr. Mona

No one else exactly would.

00;24;27;13 – 00;25;04;19

Dr. Margo Lowy

But it kind of really divides us because it splits us. And often mothers or others seen as perfect, wonderful or as terrible, as crummy as not caring. And really, we are both and so we need, we need to get that out that we’re both. And instead of, social media, which for us often would say, well, post you the mother is arriving at school fully quaffed with her children all in line, having like, she’s looking wonderful.

00;25;04;19 – 00;25;27;18

Dr. Margo Lowy

Yeah, she has it all together. That’s not true. Or the mother that’s totally harrassed all the time. That’s not true. It’s both. So what I’m saying here is how important it is, if we can, to gather ourselves together around us. People that really support us, that that have our back. And I think as mums, we do have an antenna.

00;25;27;20 – 00;25;57;15

Dr. Margo Lowy

We do know who is right for us. And I’m really entreating mums that if someone’s not right, you’ve just got to kind of sideline them, join them in your life for that because that can really be hurtful. The other part of what what you said is we’re not this it’s so important to be able to embrace the uncertainty of mothering because it is uncertain.

00;25;57;18 – 00;26;21;09

Dr. Margo Lowy

And that’s okay. And I think we’re often looking for a path of certainty of that’s right. We’re not going to get that. And that’s kind of the flow, and that’s what we’ve got to learn about. And also one really important aspect that’s that that is sometimes really hard to remember. But so important is we’ve got to be human humerus.

00;26;21;16 – 00;26;21;29

Dr. Margo Lowy

We’ve got.

00;26;21;29 – 00;26;23;18

Dr. Mona

Us. Yes.

00;26;23;20 – 00;26;24;20

Dr. Margo Lowy

And ourselves.

00;26;24;25 – 00;26;25;19

Dr. Mona

Lined up.

00;26;25;20 – 00;26;50;04

Dr. Margo Lowy

Yeah, yeah. First things are not that important. Yeah. And I look back at myself and I think I always it was so important to me to get my children to school every day on time. It was like panicking and it was like, okay, it is important. But, you know, sometimes you slip up and sometimes you don’t do it and it’s actually okay.

00;26;50;07 – 00;27;12;17

Dr. Margo Lowy

And, you know, I had three I had a I have a 45 year old, nearly 45 year old, I’ve got a nearly 36 year old. And I nearly 28 year old. So motherhood every decade differently. I mean, I mothered in three decades, which is unusual to mother in your when you’re about 24, when you’re about 35 or 41.

00;27;12;19 – 00;27;40;27

Dr. Margo Lowy

But when I look back on it, I realized that my first two mothering experiences were rigid. I didn’t really have room in myself to think about my mothering and to think about the dark. Difficult. I wouldn’t give myself permission to do that. The first situation I was very young. The second situation, it was after a long experience of secondary infertility, seven years.

00;27;40;27 – 00;28;02;26

Dr. Margo Lowy

So there was no way I was going to think about that. But in my third, experience, I had a daughter and she was not going to let me get away with anything like I would. She would question me. She would me. And she made me laugh. Yeah. Anything else? So there was no rigidity there. Or wait until I felt myself getting rigid.

00;28;03;02 – 00;28;21;13

Dr. Margo Lowy

She’d name it. And that was really, really inspired me to to understand it and to really help people understand that rigidity and rules and regulations and perfection do not help.

00;28;21;16 – 00;28;46;13

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show. Oh, absolutely. Oh gosh, this is so much wisdom, I love it, I feel the same way and it’s just so nice to hear that and why this is so important for us. Right? I mean, the rigidity, the stress. I mean, I give that guidance so often I’m like, I because I’m very I, energy is very palpable to me.

00;28;46;16 – 00;29;11;00

Dr. Mona

So if I’m in an exam room with a family and I, I sense that sort of stress about everything, right? The sleep, the feeding. And you even brought it up earlier that those early years can be really hard to tap into this. Right? When, when the children have a lot more needs. But as someone who’s been there twice and has younger children, I do believe that you can find this sort of acceptance and love for the ambivalence of motherhood early on, as well, and how that can help you.

00;29;11;05 – 00;29;28;29

Dr. Mona

And so I love that you brought that up. And one comment that is segue me to another question is what you mentioned about social media. I love that it’s given me the community that it’s given me. I love that it’s given me ways to connect with people like yourself, right. And have these conversations and put it on social.

00;29;29;03 – 00;29;53;29

Dr. Mona

But using social media for good. But I also agree that there is a lot of toxicity there. And you mentioned that ideal is idealization of that perfect mom, right? The one that has the filter all the kids are walking in line like little ducklings like this. Everyone’s smiling. The picture perfect photos. I have heard this from so many of my community members that many women, they feel ashamed for simply being normal, right?

00;29;53;29 – 00;30;21;03

Dr. Mona

Your hair up in a bun, all of that stuff. And how does acknowledging maternal ambivalence help mothers show themselves more compassion? Compassion? And how does also just accepting the darker emotions, right. Like the guilt, the frustration, how do you feel that that can actually deepen and not weaken a mother’s connection with her child? So talking about the power of ambivalence in connection and also in, you know, compassion for self as well.

00;30;21;05 – 00;30;49;22

Dr. Margo Lowy

Okay. Well, I think it goes back to understanding that we’re human. And, and as mothers, we do. We just we want to we it’s very hard for us to accept that we’re we’re doing the best that we can. You know, this is such a powerful message. And as humans and as mothers, we are doing the best that we can.

00;30;49;27 – 00;31;22;19

Dr. Margo Lowy

But we always want to do perfect. Yeah. So in a sense, we need to encourage moms to to see that distinction. We’re trying and we keep trying and sometimes and often we’re going to stumble. But this is what is human and the real the the real twist. There is that, our children and us, we don’t function as machines.

00;31;22;21 – 00;31;49;20

Dr. Margo Lowy

And that is actually also, I think, very powerful image. We’re not machines, we’re people. We’ve got frailties, we’ve got cracks. We’ve got, things that we don’t like about ourselves. Things that we, we do like about ourselves with a whole picture. And that’s what we are. And as we need to understand that about ourselves, when not a social media visual.

00;31;49;20 – 00;32;01;16

Dr. Margo Lowy

Absolutely. Actually humans and we and as a as the side benefit of that, we need to teach our children that that they’re, that they’re carex lovable.

00;32;01;16 – 00;32;02;09

Dr. Mona

Yeah.

00;32;02;12 – 00;32;05;05

Dr. Margo Lowy

You know, sometimes they’re annoying.

00;32;05;07 – 00;32;08;15

Dr. Mona

As are we. Right. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

00;32;08;17 – 00;32;41;03

Dr. Margo Lowy

They trigger us. Yeah. And this also times it’s also really important if we can recognize that we’re being triggered. I think this is really, really, really important. If we can give ourselves, time to respond rather than the react. I talk about that a lot in my book. It’s really hard to when we’re feeling that frustration and anger or even that exhaustion, that and the and the exhaustion of how can I go on?

00;32;41;05 – 00;33;06;18

Dr. Margo Lowy

It’s like, let’s give ourselves ten or 20s in a sense to restart. It’s like the giving us of a forgiveness that it’s okay, and let’s just like, give ourselves the space we don’t have to respond straight away. Let’s just give ourselves some space. Because the other thing about that is, as mothers, especially young mothers, we are so time poor.

00;33;06;21 – 00;33;30;16

Dr. Margo Lowy

Yeah. And so that’s like the that’s like the frame. Everything’s quick. So we think that we need to give in a to a demand or answer a demand straight away. And what I’m saying is no, we don’t. Let’s slow ourselves down. And that was one that’s one of the memories of me, of myself as a as a young mother and an older mother.

00;33;30;18 – 00;33;53;10

Dr. Margo Lowy

Everything was like boom, boom, boom, boom. And I kind of got when I think about it, I got myself into this situation of, I have to answer. I’ve got to, you know, I’ve got to answer this demand straight away. No, it’s okay. Let’s give ourselves some space to think about it, because we get pressured. And I think this is the other thing when I’m talking to you, I’m.

00;33;53;11 – 00;34;18;20

Dr. Margo Lowy

Yeah, it’s wonderful. And I’m thinking about all the other parts of my work and I’m articulate in them. And, you know, we don’t need to give in to pressure, social pressure, a children’s pressure. Mother’s pressure. Yeah. Hotness. Pressure. Oh, friends. Pressure. No, we’ve got to do it our way. All those all those outside, influences can be great.

00;34;18;24 – 00;34;42;04

Dr. Margo Lowy

But you know what? We actually know our child the best. And I think this is also the other part of my work that’s so important. And I, as a new mum, you have doubts? Of course you do this thing. This is like, as you said, this is this is the most difficult thing. It’s not like a job. This is the most difficult thing that we’ve ever faced.

00;34;42;04 – 00;35;05;14

Dr. Margo Lowy

And it it’s the most wonderful and it’s the most difficult. Yeah. So you know, we’ve got to give us self the belief that we know our child and, and especially when we’re, when we are doing hands on mothering because this is we’re going to make mistakes, but no one knows our child better than us. Yeah. This is this is our message.

00;35;05;14 – 00;35;29;14

Dr. Margo Lowy

So we need to really lean into that, to lean into that, that belief and really understand that it’s us and people around us can help us, but we also need to know what advice, if that’s what it is to take and what feels right, and not to get swayed into something that’s not genuine for us.

00;35;29;16 – 00;35;46;16

Dr. Mona

I love this, and I love that I’m our conversation is inspiring you to think about your work even more. This is what I love about podcasting, Doctor Margot. Like, I love hearing people so passionate about the work that they do, because that’s what I do in my space. And so I hear that from you. And, you know, it all ties in so beautifully.

00;35;46;16 – 00;36;03;07

Dr. Mona

And for a listener who’s who I think has put it together. But you had mentioned about that, adding lightness, right. Adding humor. And I saw that in my own mothering, right. With my first and my second, I had the first in the pandemic, and then the second is out of a pandemic and just the pandemic stress made me more stressed.

00;36;03;07 – 00;36;24;03

Dr. Mona

Right? And I it showed up in how I mothered, right. I was more anxious, more rigid. All the things that you’re talking about. And with my second, I’m way more light, right? There’s more humor and I’ve always been a humor driven person, but I feel that and I think it came with that exact concept that you mentioned of being okay with not being perfect.

00;36;24;03 – 00;36;45;28

Dr. Mona

Right? Because when these mothers come out and they think that they’re perfect and they think that they have to do X, y, and Z, I got a, my kid has to sleep this way, my kid has to feed this way all the checkboxes that women put on themselves when they become moms. And then it’s not happening. They don’t have that space for humor, for lightness, because they’re just living in this tensed up box of not having joy.

00;36;46;00 – 00;37;11;14

Dr. Mona

You know, I don’t think you know this about my podcast, but in the pandemic, I did a series on my show, the the podcast called finding Joy and I, each episode talked about how we need to let go of things that aren’t serving us, whether it was perfectionism, you know, people pleasing, the frustrations that we carry. And it was and hearing you talk about this is like a reminder of the things that I, I was often telling my community and often telling myself as a new mom.

00;37;11;20 – 00;37;34;22

Dr. Mona

And I think this is it, right? Like, I think the bottom line here that I’m hearing is that if we can be okay with the fact that you are not going to love every moment of motherhood, that you are not going to, you don’t have to do love every moment. And you can say that it’s okay, that you need space, or you can say, it’s okay that I want to spend every moment with my kid, that oh, king of the feeling makes you more light.

00;37;34;22 – 00;37;44;00

Dr. Mona

And I think also lets you tap into that intuition that I think me and you both know that moms have, but they lose because of this comparison and this judgment for self.

00;37;44;00 – 00;38;10;22

Dr. Margo Lowy

I think that’s exactly right. And I think the intuition is so important. And that is really what makes us genuine. Like this is what’s important. Not not what some not what the social what not what the the maternal ideal. Yeah. That’s the one that has the very high, and anything that is around should that’s an ideal. And we really need to let go of that.

00;38;10;25 – 00;38;19;25

Dr. Margo Lowy

It’s hard. And as you say with the first child, I mean, you, you had the whole thing because you had the pandemic. And that was like, you know, that is really.

00;38;20;00 – 00;38;22;03

Dr. Mona

A whole different experience. I know. Yeah.

00;38;22;06 – 00;38;55;18

Dr. Margo Lowy

But survived it. Yeah. Sometimes it’s about surviving every day. And the other part of my work is that those difficult moments, and they’re the ones that teach us. And they also melt us there. Those times, for example, if you’re when you’re a new mom and you’re coming home and the baby’s awake and you’re awake three or 4 or 5 times a night, and it’s just so difficult, and then the baby gives you a smile and then you melt.

00;38;55;20 – 00;39;23;14

Dr. Margo Lowy

And that is also really part of my work to grab these melting moments, because they’re the ones that get us to show up every day. I mean, it’s like astounding when I look at my when I look back and when I see young mums, they continue and we continue to show up every day and what that about. And that’s something that’s so special about mothers.

00;39;23;16 – 00;39;49;12

Dr. Margo Lowy

And when we when you said, what’s the difference between a mother and a father? And I’m not and sometimes fathers are the are looking after the children. So I’m not I’m not just I’m not not including them when I’m talking about mums, but really, what is it that allows us to show up every day? And what I’m saying is being more genuine and truthful to ourselves.

00;39;49;14 – 00;40;11;22

Dr. Margo Lowy

That is what helps us show up every day, and also to grab those moments, those moments of laughter, those moments of joy, those special moments when, say, for example, we lose our child in the mall, in the mall for a second, and then we find the child, because we all have those moments when we are horrified, when we think we’ve lost our child.

00;40;11;24 – 00;40;30;27

Dr. Margo Lowy

Yeah, we’ve had that all, had those moments. And then when we see that child and we hug that child, yeah. And we’re so annoyed that that child wandered away for a second. But when we hold that child in our arms, a love just takes over. Oh, yeah. Really important. Yeah.

00;40;30;27 – 00;40;48;12

Dr. Mona

You get it, I get it. And, you know, I don’t think I don’t think, you know, because you obviously I. This is the first time you’ve been on my show and maybe you haven’t listened to a lot of my episodes, but my entire embodiment of my show and my platform is understanding and normalizing how difficult parenting is, but also making sure that we look for the good, right?

00;40;48;12 – 00;41;06;00

Dr. Mona

Because we cannot survive this if we are not looking for the good and it’s not dismissing the bad. And I think that’s commonly mistaken, misconceived of like, well, that means I’m toxic. Positivity and all that. But no, I very well have been through it. I have been through the hardest phases of my life as a mom, and I probably will go through those moments again.

00;41;06;00 – 00;41;29;21

Dr. Mona

And I’m very aware of that. Being a pediatrician who takes care of newborns to 21. But I love, I love when I have guests, and I didn’t know that you would be like this until we chat, right? That embody that belief of this is hard work, but we need to find that joy. And it is it is important work that we do so that we can not just, like, fly through and look back and say, what just happened?

00;41;29;21 – 00;41;50;05

Dr. Mona

I want us to actually look at moments and say, this was actually really awesome, even through the newborn period, even when your toddler is two and throwing tantrums, I don’t want you to keep wishing away their childhood like that is how I look at my kids childhood. I don’t want them to just be getting older, I want to I want to look at this and say, yeah, you know what?

00;41;50;12 – 00;42;02;25

Dr. Mona

I don’t like when my five and a half year old is talking back to me, but I get to be his mother and guide him, and one day he’s not going to do that, and then I’m going to miss it. I know it.

00;42;02;27 – 00;42;08;24

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

00;42;08;26 – 00;42;38;09

Dr. Margo Lowy

Oh, let’s watch. And we learn from our children. Yes, I look at, you know, how much I’ve learned from my children, but as you say, you’ve got to be there in the moment and you’ve got to be able to to take the difficult moments. But equally, we need to pat ourselves on the back. Oh, yeah, we survive something when we survive a tantrum, when we survive a night like nights of not sleeping.

00;42;38;09 – 00;42;38;25

Dr. Mona

Right.

00;42;38;28 – 00;42;58;02

Dr. Margo Lowy

When we survive, when they’re older and we still don’t sleep. And it’s more difficult when they’re 16 or 17 and they’re in the car driving around and, you know, you don’t know whether they are or you, you get that, that fear that something’s happened to them. I mean, it’s it’s all like such a, such a tapestry.

00;42;58;09 – 00;43;16;10

Dr. Mona

What a great way to put. That’s a great word to describe it. It’s like weaves in and out. There’s so much to it. There’s so much detail. And it’s like, all connected together. And, you know, I believe this. You believe it. And the philosophy here is we cannot normalize something we never talk about. And when it comes to these darker feelings, happier feelings, all of it.

00;43;16;12 – 00;43;33;08

Dr. Mona

And I know so many women and moms are suffering. So for a listener who’s just beginning to explore these feelings of maternal ambivalence, and now we’ve put this label, if they’ve never heard this term, what’s one powerful first step towards embracing and not hiding this emotional complexity of motherhood?

00;43;33;10 – 00;43;59;04

Dr. Margo Lowy

Okay, will you just say that actually you have to name the feeling? Yes. And the thing about ambivalence is it hasn’t. It’s misunderstood and it doesn’t named. So that’s another very important part of my work. By naming it, by normalizing it, it actually becomes okay because there’s something misunderstood and mysterious and people, it’s taboo. People don’t want to go there.

00;43;59;07 – 00;44;32;24

Dr. Margo Lowy

So but I think it’s such an essential part of mothering. Yeah. And it’s part of the maternal language and it hasn’t been named. And by naming it, we’re encouraging people to go into it and to explore it. And once and the more people that go into an explore it, the more normal and okay it is. So as mums, we also have a really a responsibility to talk about it and to normalize it for ourselves and for other mums.

00;44;32;24 – 00;44;57;04

Dr. Margo Lowy

We’re not we’re not in this alone. We’re all different and we’re all unique, but it’s really the same. And when you talk about having a we want to have a community around us, whether it’s my community, when I was a young mum of five people around the kitchen table or what it is today, but we have to use our antennas to know who we bring into our community.

00;44;57;10 – 00;45;06;10

Dr. Margo Lowy

I can’t really stress that enough that we need to have people that have our backs, not people that are trying to undermine us.

00;45;06;11 – 00;45;07;15

Dr. Mona

Yeah, and.

00;45;07;17 – 00;45;25;01

Dr. Margo Lowy

You know, I think, you know, we talked about suffering and we all do suffer as mums, that’s for sure. We suffer and we have the best experiences, but we really need to be strong enough to know who those people are that we surround ourselves.

00;45;25;03 – 00;45;43;17

Dr. Mona

Absolutely, absolutely. I call the term I created is uplifting. Realists like you need people who aren’t going to sugarcoat things like, you don’t want a rah rah cheerleader that doesn’t call you out on your let’s use the right word bullshit, right like that. You need to check your patterns, but you want someone who’s on your team, right? So I, I love my uplifting, realist friends.

00;45;43;17 – 00;46;00;15

Dr. Mona

I don’t need a friend who tells me, Mona, everything you do is great. I need a friend who’s like, you know, I you know that. That’s like, if it’s a parenting issue, whatever it is, like having that person is so vital. And Doctor Margot, I just have loved this conversation, and I, I love it. I just think it’s so nice.

00;46;00;15 – 00;46;19;23

Dr. Mona

Again to be surprised by my guests. My listeners know this, but I, I don’t do pre interviews and the purpose like why I don’t do pre interviews with my guest is I want it to be a truly organic conversation. I want it to be like me and you just met for the first time, which we are. And I am just blown away by how similar we are.

00;46;19;24 – 00;46;32;14

Dr. Mona

Yet I didn’t even know that that was going to happen. And so thank you. Where can everyone go to get your book, but also stay connected with the work that you’re doing? And tell us all of that, and we will be attaching all of this to the show notes.

00;46;32;14 – 00;46;56;09

Dr. Margo Lowy

Okay. On my website, Margot. It’s up to margot.com. Everything’s everything’s there. And also in my book is, it’s a someone caught when I was on a podcast. Someone called it a compassionate guide. And I really like that because it’s it’s really it’s compassionate. And it was that also speaks to how we have to be to ourselves. Yeah.

00;46;56;11 – 00;47;14;04

Dr. Margo Lowy

And our children and the community of mothers, we really need to be compassionate and forgiving, and that’s part of the flow. And sometimes we’re not compassionate and forgiving enough. So I guess that’s my my message because that really encompasses everything.

00;47;14;06 – 00;47;31;20

Dr. Mona

Love it. And and again, when I have you speak about this is his work that I’m doing with the, you know, obviously being fresh into this world, ten years practicing five years as a mom. And it’s work that I want to continue doing and almost like, I feel like you can pass that torch to me, like you’re still doing the work.

00;47;31;26 – 00;47;32;11

Dr. Mona

But as.

00;47;32;11 – 00;47;33;13

Dr. Margo Lowy

You reach the.

00;47;33;13 – 00;47;47;16

Dr. Mona

End of the end of your practice time, and I want you to know that I am embodying this for my community, too. You know, I, I feel this so strongly. I think the world needs this message and so truly, thank you for joining me today. This was so amazing.

00;47;47;23 – 00;48;00;28

Dr. Margo Lowy

Fantastic. Thank you so and one last thing before I leave ish, I think that for mums to hear you as a pediatrician, just say that you have these difficulties.

00;48;00;28 – 00;48;02;10

Dr. Mona

Oh yeah, these struggles.

00;48;02;16 – 00;48;20;09

Dr. Margo Lowy

I mean that is so so great for mothers to it makes it normal. It’s it’s ordinary. What you’re making this ordinary. You’re not saying I’m perfect. I know everything, and that is so great for all mums to hear that.

00;48;20;12 – 00;48;41;10

Dr. Mona

I’m always shocked when I do share that, because I am very authentic. And that’s who I am. Like even before becoming a pediatrician. But when I share that and so many people DM me like on on Instagram and they’re like, it feels so good hearing a pediatrician say that. And it just reminds me that people do look at us like, I’m talking like pediatricians, as you know, educated all together all the time.

00;48;41;15 – 00;49;04;15

Dr. Mona

And although I am very professional and do know what I’m doing, I’m human. Like you said that going back to the conversation, every human being, every human mother, all of us feel and have these ambivalent feelings. And I love that. And I continue to do that. And I you’re right, it does resonate. And it also helps me right to share that with the world and say, listen, I feel good being honest with you all that I don’t like this.

00;49;04;15 – 00;49;19;15

Dr. Mona

I don’t like solo parenting my kids seven weekends in a row and it doesn’t make me a bad mom. I just love having company and I love having my husband around. And when I do that, it prompts people to say, yeah, I hate it too. Yes, and it’s okay to say that doesn’t mean that you’re a bad mom.

00;49;19;15 – 00;49;22;00

Dr. Mona

So I love that final message. That’s it.

00;49;22;02 – 00;49;22;15

Dr. Margo Lowy

Thank you.

00;49;22;15 – 00;49;44;00

Dr. Mona

So great. Before we wrap up, here is my biggest takeaway. Maternal ambivalence is not something to fix. It’s just something we need to name. Just like we talk about naming feelings in our children so we can better process it. There are days when I am fully in it, playing on the floor, laughing, building Legos, and then 30 minutes later, I am completely overstimulated.

00;49;44;00 – 00;50;10;19

Dr. Mona

The noise, the touching, the constant questions. And my husband has looked at me and said we weren’t you just having fun? Yes I was, and now I’m not that flip flop. That’s ambivalence. It’s loving your children deeply and also needing space. It’s enjoying the play and then realizing your nervous system is done. It’s coming off a solo weekend while your partner is working and feeling proud you handled it, but also craving quiet so badly that you go upstairs and close the door for ten minutes.

00;50;10;21 – 00;50;30;02

Dr. Mona

I love my kids so much and sometimes I just need alone time. When I started naming that instead of judging it, everything shifted. I’m overstimulated. I’m touched out. I need a reset. And here’s the part we don’t talk about enough. When we don’t name it, it leaks. It comes out a snapping. It comes out as guilt. It comes out as resentment.

00;50;30;02 – 00;50;50;03

Dr. Mona

We don’t fully understand. And then we think the problem is us. But the problem is not us. It’s the feeling. It’s understanding the feelings so that we can figure out how to approach it. The problem is pretending that feeling isn’t there. Naming our feelings does not make our children responsible for them, and that distinction matters. I’m not saying you are too much.

00;50;50;06 – 00;51;12;17

Dr. Mona

I’m saying my nervous system needs care and that model self-awareness in models, emotional range in models that you can feel two things at once and still be a loving parent. That is emotional maturity in real time. If this episode spoke to you, download it. Subscribe so you never miss a conversation and share it on social media. Tagging PedsDocTalk, the PedsDocTalk Podcast and Dr. Margo Lowy Doctor Margo Lowy.

00;51;12;24 – 00;51;19;03

Dr. Mona

You never know which mom needs permission to feel what she’s already feeling. I’ll catch you all next time. Stay well.

Please note that our transcript may not exactly match the final audio, as minor edits or adjustments could be made during production.