I know how heartbreaking and confusing it can be when a child seems fine and compliant at school only to experience meltdowns the moment they step foot at home. Today, I sit down with Meredith Carder, an ADHD coach, to dive deep into masking in ADHD. Meredith shares her own journey of being diagnosed later in life and sheds light on the immense mental and physical toll that trying to fit in takes on kids and adults. We explore how masking leads to late diagnoses (especially in girls) and discuss practical strategies to help our kids feel safe enough to drop the mask and get their regulatory needs met. 

We discuss:

• Meredith Carder shares her experience as a late-diagnosed adult and parent advocate

• How children exert so much mental energy masking at school that they experience meltdowns once safely home

• That many girls especially mask their symptoms, leading to missed or delayed diagnoses

• How chronic masking can lead to adult perfectionism, people-pleasing habits and burnout cycles

• Indicators of masking like extreme rigidity, hair twirling, leg bouncing, excessive apologizing and school refusal

To connect with Meredith Carder follow her on Instagram @Hummingbird_adhd  and check out all her resources at ⁠https://meredithcarder.com/⁠. Buy her book It All Makes Sense Now: Embrace Your ADHD Brain to Live a Creative and Colorful Life ⁠https://link.amazon/B0fwsM6F9⁠ (paid link)

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00;00;50;05 – 00;01;09;23

Dr. Mona

Welcome back to the PedsDocTalk podcast. I’m Doctor Mona here to help you better understand your kids, yourself and everything that comes with parenting. Whether this is your first or 250th episode. Yes, I have a lot of episodes. Thank you for being here. Remember, the show grows when you subscribe, download episodes and share. So don’t forget to do all of that.

00;01;09;28 – 00;01;27;10

Dr. Mona

Now I want you to think about something. Have you ever had a teacher tell you your child is an absolute angel peach at school, but the second they get home, they completely fall apart. Or maybe you have a child who gets amazing grades, follows all the rules and never causes trouble, but seems exhausted, anxious, or overwhelmed by the end of the day.

00;01;27;13 – 00;01;51;19

Dr. Mona

Or maybe you, that child. What if some of these children are working so hard to appear okay that we’re missing how much they’re actually struggling? October is ADHD Awareness Month, and I wanted to have a conversation about something that I think deserves a lot more attention ADHD masking. And as a reminder, a lot of neurodivergent children and people mask autistic individuals, mask ADHD, individuals, mask.

00;01;51;23 – 00;02;14;22

Dr. Mona

But for this conversation we were talking about ADHD. Masking is when someone hides or suppresses certain behaviors or needs to fit into what others expect of them, and for children with ADHD, or maybe you who have it yourself. This can mean spending an entire school day trying to sit still, stay quiet, follow directions, and appear like everyone else, even when doing so takes an enormous amount of effort.

00;02;14;24 – 00;02;41;03

Dr. Mona

And here’s what concerns me as a pediatrician and a mom. Sometimes the children who appear to be doing the best on the outside are the very children whose struggles were overlooking. Today’s guest is Meredith Carter, an ADHD coach, creator, writer, and author of It All Makes Sense Now Embrace Your ADHD Brain to Live a Creative and Colorful Life, Meredith has a bachelor’s degree in psychology and MBA, and more than 20 years of experience across employee training, development, and entrepreneurship.

00;02;41;05 – 00;03;01;21

Dr. Mona

She’s also a mother who came to understand her own ADHD after advocating for her daughter. And she’s turned that personal experience into a career helping adults better understand how their brains work. I actually met Meredith at the mom 2.0 conference, and I knew I wanted to bring her onto the podcast because she has such an important perspective, both personally and professionally.

00;03;01;23 – 00;03;31;03

Dr. Mona

In today’s conversation, we’re talking about what ADHD masking actually looks like, why it can contribute to misdiagnoses, especially in girls. And why some children hold it together all day at school, only to completely unravel at home. We also get into the emotional and physical toll of masking subtle signs that parents and teachers may overlook, and most importantly, how we can create environments where children feel safe being themselves while still learning boundaries, respect, and how to function in the world around them.

00;03;31;05 – 00;03;49;07

Dr. Mona

Because we want our children to learn how to manage their needs, communicate and adapt to different situations, but we also need to ask ourselves how much we’re expecting them to suppress just to make the adults around them more comfortable. And if you’ve been struggling to understand why your child seems like two different kids at home and at school, you are not alone.

00;03;49;09 – 00;04;17;13

Dr. Mona

This conversation may give you a new way to understand what you’re seeing and tools to help you with your child. And before we jump in, make sure you’re subscribe to the show and our YouTube channel if you want to see us talking. Download the episode and share it with someone who would benefit from hearing it. And if you do share it on social media, tag the pizza doctor podcast, Pizza Dog Talk and at hummingbird underscore ADHD that’s Meredith, so we can see what resonated with you.

00;04;17;15 – 00;04;24;17

Dr. Mona

Let’s get into today’s conversation.

00;04;24;19 – 00;04;27;26

Dr. Mona

Thank you so much for joining me today, Meredith. Happy to see you again.

00;04;27;27 – 00;04;30;20

Meredith Carder

Yeah, I’m so happy to see you as well. Thank you for having me.

00;04;30;23 – 00;04;52;21

Dr. Mona

Yeah. You know, I love mom 2.0. It’s obviously not an advertisement for that conference, but, like, I didn’t realize how much I was going to love that conference as an entrepreneur, as a creator online, and to be able to connect with people like yourself. You held an amazing workshop and you’re doing amazing things. And so for anyone who’s not familiar with your work, what is it that drew you into this work and also to write that book?

00;04;52;21 – 00;04;54;03

Dr. Mona

It all makes sense now.

00;04;54;06 – 00;05;29;16

Meredith Carder

So I became an ADHD coach, almost by accident. I have a daughter that was diagnosed with ADHD, over a decade now, and throughout the process of advocating for her and really learning about the ADHD brain, I came to realize that I had ADHD too. There are lots of moments filling out that paperwork. Really just seeing, you know, symptoms I didn’t even realize were ADHD until after her diagnosis.

00;05;29;19 – 00;06;03;23

Meredith Carder

In my life as well, kind of moved me to pursue my own diagnosis. And then I just started talking about it with people and realizing that there’s still so much misinformation about ADHD out there. I started having conversations with other moms, and and many of them also felt that they were impacted by ADHD symptoms. And I just kind of realized that there are so many of us that were coming to this conclusion later in life that we had ADHD as well as we were trying to advocate for our kids.

00;06;03;26 – 00;06;25;21

Meredith Carder

So at the time, the internet doesn’t look like it does today. There’s not there wasn’t influencers talking about ADHD. I had to read a lot of books about ADHD. But most of them were geared towards children, and I was really looking to, make sense of my own life a little bit better to understand how it was showing up for me.

00;06;25;21 – 00;06;47;18

Meredith Carder

So I decided to take a course with that ADHD coaching academy. Really, just for knowledge purposes. I wasn’t integrating the information I was learning as well as I wanted to be able to. You and I took with the first course. I didn’t even know ADHD coaching was a thing at the time. Yeah, I was like, wow, I already work in employee coaching.

00;06;47;20 – 00;07;14;11

Meredith Carder

This could be a way that I could help a really specific population of people better understand their brain. So, you know, I took some time to think about it. I took my time getting through the program, and really ultimately decided to make that career shift. And then I started talking about it online. I started talking about this during the pandemic to build my coaching practice, because I wasn’t talking to physicians and building a referral network in a traditional way.

00;07;14;13 – 00;07;22;03

Meredith Carder

And I just found out there were a lot of people that wanted to hear about this. And that kind of all led to the book, in the long run.

00;07;22;05 – 00;07;34;10

Dr. Mona

And your, you know, your focus is a lot on the adult with the ADHD as well, right? I mean, that’s would you say that’s your primary people that you’re coaching and helping, like making sense of their brain after years of not understanding themselves?

00;07;34;12 – 00;08;01;28

Meredith Carder

Yeah. Right now I work with mainly adults. And you know, when I first started, I did think I wanted to work with parents and children. I thought that would be my primary, area of psycho education. And the more I learned, throughout my own process of managing my own ADHD and helping my daughter and now my son, who’s also been diagnosed, I realized I couldn’t help the other people around me.

00;08;01;28 – 00;08;21;17

Meredith Carder

And so I had my own ADHD. I managed better than it was. I needed to learn how to regulate myself before I could help them regulate. So I found that to with my practice that a lot of parents were coming to me, you know, wanting to help their kid, but they had their own things that likely needed to be addressed first.

00;08;21;17 – 00;08;26;25

Meredith Carder

So I kind of pivoted to working mainly with adults at that time.

00;08;26;28 – 00;08;44;23

Dr. Mona

So important. I mean, we talked so much about parenting guidance, but we forget how we show up in those moments. And so for someone who’s neurodiverse, like someone with ADHD, if you haven’t handled it, haven’t got the diagnosis, if you don’t understand your brain, you’re going to approach the situations much differently than someone who is neurotypical, you know?

00;08;44;23 – 00;08;57;27

Dr. Mona

And so I, I love that you’re focusing on that because that to me is equally, if not more important than the parenting advice that I can give. You know, it’s all about the whole ecosystem of a family, which you’re approaching. So that’s wonderful.

00;08;57;29 – 00;08;59;04

Meredith Carder

Yeah.

00;08;59;07 – 00;09;18;25

Dr. Mona

And, you know, I want to talk about masking. You know, we were deciding on what should we talk about. And I actually had another episode last year, with Sasha Hamdani, who talks a lot about ADHD. And we talked about when motherhood unmasked neurodiversity, especially ADHD, because she also has had that personal and professional experience in ADHD.

00;09;18;28 – 00;09;43;03

Dr. Mona

And one of the things we talked about is masking, one of the things we talked about, which you’re very much aware you had a late diagnosis as a woman, is how girls, especially go through life without the diagnosis and then get diagnosed later in life. And so I don’t want to rehash all of that, but if you’re tuning in, you got to listen to that episode where we talk about some of the hormonal or motherhood things that happen when motherhood unmasks neurodiversity.

00;09;43;05 – 00;09;59;13

Dr. Mona

But for you, what I my question for you is what was your experience being diagnosed later in life? And could you then look back and say, oh, in my childhood, those characteristics were all ADHD that got brushed under the rug or labeled as something different.

00;09;59;15 – 00;10;24;02

Meredith Carder

Yeah, it’s been an incredible journey of lots and lots of light bulb moments. Throughout the process, there were so many signs that feel very clear to me now, but I can definitely see how they were missed. In childhood, I was very curious as a child. So in school, when the topic was engaging, I did fine.

00;10;24;02 – 00;10;45;26

Meredith Carder

I was a pretty good student. I love to read, so I got good grades for the most part. There was like a few subjects where it didn’t make sense because I’d be a straight-A student and that I’d be failing math. Makes sense now. But, you know, there are a lot of behaviors that would be really big red flags to me now as a parent.

00;10;45;26 – 00;11;07;20

Meredith Carder

But this was the 80s and 90s, so we were looking at things a lot differently. I would sometimes come home from school and have marks for my nails in my hand where I was clenching and, really trying to control what I now know was my need to fidget and move. I would come home very dysregulated.

00;11;07;20 – 00;11;30;23

Meredith Carder

And my mom used to always joke with people that I was an angel at school and I devil at home. And, you know, in a lot of ways that that meant that home was a safe space for me. But to me, it’s now a clear indicator that I had to show up completely differently. And that environment, I was a kid that got a lot of headaches.

00;11;30;26 – 00;11;49;28

Meredith Carder

We never found a cause for them. My parents tried to investigate them. Sometimes I would hit my head against the wall, and now I can see that it was. I was trying to find a way to regulate. I was, you know, I would be really concerned about that if my kids were doing that now. But. And I think my parents were concerned, but they never got an answer as to why.

00;11;50;00 – 00;12;10;01

Meredith Carder

So I think a lot of it comes down to providers are not at the time we’re not really able to recognize that those were masking behaviors that a child is controlling so hard in one environment that they are acting out in another way at home.

00;12;10;04 – 00;12;34;28

Dr. Mona

Now, let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show. Oh, so for those listening who may not understand the term masking, how would you describe it to someone who may not have gone through that experience? What masking is and why a neurodiverse child or adult might do that? Obviously we’re talking about ADHD, but for everyone tuning in, even our, autistic children mask, right?

00;12;34;28 – 00;12;41;14

Dr. Mona

So in the context of ADHD, what does masking mean? So for someone who may not understand.

00;12;41;16 – 00;13;16;16

Meredith Carder

So masking is almost an attempt to appear neurotypical in a behavior behaviors that are trying to cover to cover up other behaviors. So usually what happens is children internalize messages really early on that something they’re doing is not wanted or not, quote unquote normal. So they begin trying to find workarounds. They direct a lot of mental energy to make those, needs or impulses less visible to everyone else.

00;13;16;18 – 00;13;32;06

Dr. Mona

And you know what you had said earlier about the school stuff, right? We talk about the term restraint collapse. And I think when I hear, you know, when I have heard about restraint collapse from a lot of other people who may not be neurodiverse affirming, it’s like, oh, yeah, your kid is upset. They come home. You’re their safe space.

00;13;32;06 – 00;13;51;19

Dr. Mona

But what you just said is beautiful and important that for some children, especially those with ADHD, who have been masking all day. Right, like trying to keep it together, their school is telling them to act a certain way. Oh my God. Like that is so much pressure for a young child to then have to come home. And then that is why it can be so much more extreme like it.

00;13;51;25 – 00;14;07;09

Dr. Mona

It’s so important for us to label these things and say, hey, we have ADHD, your child is keeping it all together by masking and how hard that is to do all the data to try to be something that you’re not, and then have to then come home and say, Now I’m in my safe space, let it all out.

00;14;07;09 – 00;14;08;24

Dr. Mona

That’s why it could be so big, right?

00;14;08;29 – 00;14;31;15

Meredith Carder

Yeah, yeah. There are I mean, this is a behavior I think that can show up, you know, for any child. But the extreme nature of it, and it, you know, not really getting better is the child that grows and learns their environment and often, you know, I’m sure as a pediatrician, you know, that when a child’s at a new daycare and in skill school, there might be that adjustment period.

00;14;31;15 – 00;14;38;06

Meredith Carder

But if a child never seems to adjust to that environment, that can be a sign that they’re heavily masking.

00;14;38;06 – 00;14;56;03

Dr. Mona

And in terms of masking, I had mentioned alluded to that earlier, that girls tend to be diagnosed later. How does masking contribute to ADHD being missed or diagnosed later? And girls are girls just more likely to mask because? Or is it that, society expectations are there? Why do you think that is?

00;14;56;05 – 00;15;18;17

Meredith Carder

I think a lot of it is societal. We, there’s a lot of misconception out there that girls with ADHD don’t present with hyperactivity, but they do. It just looks a lot different. A lot of behavior that is seen as developmentally normal for boys, to an extent, is not seen that way for girls. So we all know boys will be boys.

00;15;18;17 – 00;15;45;21

Meredith Carder

We all hear about how boys need to go climb trees and run around and get their wiggles out, but those behaviors are not as expected in girls, so they find ways to mask. And it is probably one of the biggest reasons that girls are diagnosed so much later are not diagnosed at all. So the diagnostic criteria for ADHD states that the symptoms need to be seen in more than one context.

00;15;45;21 – 00;16;07;01

Meredith Carder

So at home and at school or at home and with family and friends. So as a child they don’t go to work. We can’t look for that context. We have to look at school and see if those symptoms are noticeable. And if you’re talking to a teacher as a parent and saying, this is what I’m seeing at home, what are you seeing in the classroom?

00;16;07;01 – 00;16;27;29

Meredith Carder

And they’re saying we don’t see any of that. Your child’s not a problem. This this is clearly not ADHD or they may not say that. So, you know, they’re not supposed to say that so directly. But they may imply that the child, you know, is doing fine in that environment. So this might not be something that’s worth addressing.

00;16;28;01 – 00;16;44;06

Meredith Carder

In addition to that, when you go through the diagnostic process, you fill out paperwork and teachers will be filling out that paperwork as well. And the provider is looking at both of those. So if you have a teacher that doesn’t see the subtle signs, it can be a barrier for diagnosis.

00;16;44;09 – 00;17;11;18

Dr. Mona

And that’s exactly what you’re saying. Like back in the 80s and 90s and even today, I mean, there has to be even better education for teachers and for clinicians and, you know, parents as well as to understanding those, those subtle signs, we have other resources for that. But yeah, I mean, that is a huge disservice to the child and why, you know, going to going back to that restraint collapse conversation, why do some children with ADHD seem completely fine at school, but then meltdown at home?

00;17;11;18 – 00;17;17;03

Dr. Mona

And what is happening, I guess, on that neurological or emotional level, if you want to expand on that conversation.

00;17;17;05 – 00;17;48;28

Meredith Carder

So as school, they’re dedicating a lot of mental bandwidth towards appearing normal. A lot of times it’s, to avoid negative attention, to not get into trouble. They may have gotten negative feedback for fidgeting, containing kind of those body movements. And that natural need to move more is really, really taxing on someone all day long. So physically they may be sitting in their desk and they might be really tense.

00;17;49;00 – 00;18;11;18

Meredith Carder

They might have a posture that looks a little bit stiff or abnormal for a child, but what they’re really doing is trying to really hold their body still. And so physically, when they get home, they’re they have a headache, their body hurts. They have been trying so hard to not draw attention to themselves that they don’t have anything left to.

00;18;11;18 – 00;18;25;27

Meredith Carder

They have used all of their bandwidth up. So they are completely, outside of their zone of being able to regulate, and that’s where they have the meltdowns, or they are apathetic after school, or they want to isolate.

00;18;26;00 – 00;18;39;15

Dr. Mona

It feels like it just has a huge impact on their emotional and physical well-being. Right. Like, what is that emotional toll of masking for children who spent all day trying to meet those expectations, maybe from a personal experience or what you’ve seen with your clients?

00;18;39;17 – 00;19;14;27

Meredith Carder

Yeah, there are so many things that can happen. Oftentimes there are coping mechanisms that follow children into adulthood, like people pleasing. Yeah, there’s a lot of, I see this a lot with kids over apologizing. So they have gotten used to making mistakes or getting negative feedback. So they say sorry all the time. And that, you know, over time really can create some internal messaging there that you have a lot of things to be sorry for, even if you don’t, there’s a lot of perfectionism that I see in my adult clients that were having massacres as children.

00;19;14;29 – 00;19;37;02

Meredith Carder

They made sure that everything was done correctly. They triple double checked. As a child, you’ll see students that will be afraid to take risks in their work. They will want to be positive. They are right before raising their hand. And they need a lot of validation to know that they’re doing it correctly. Those those kids become perfectionists as adults.

00;19;37;04 – 00;20;04;15

Meredith Carder

I often think that we also really discount the physical toll. The the headaches, the jaw clenching, the teeth grinding can all be signs of that. And then they can all contribute to an adult that just is in burnout cycles all the time. They’re doing well for a while, and then they physically burn out and have that actual, clinical burnout diagnosis where their body is depleted.

00;20;04;17 – 00;20;29;21

Dr. Mona

God, I just like I’m so grateful you’re here because it just sounds like we can do a better job and we’ll get into that. You know like some ways that we can create those environments where they can feel safe to be themselves and, you know, not have to rely on masking. And, you know, for people listening that may not understand those subtle signs, right, that maybe we’re missing as parents or teachers might overlook, what are those signs that indicate a child may be masking their ADHD symptoms?

00;20;29;23 – 00;20;56;10

Meredith Carder

So when you have children, I think we we kind of touched on them. But let’s like dive into some of that a little bit more specifically. So those students that like you can physically see that they don’t feel like they’re at ease, like they’re very rigid. They are, having some behaviors that are not necessarily disruptive but seem a little bit strange in the classroom, like physically, oftentimes it’s like the bouncing leg or something like that.

00;20;56;10 – 00;21;14;27

Meredith Carder

And girls, a lot of times it becomes like playing with their hair, like all of the time. That was a big one for me. So looking for those physical signs, maybe it’s even the kid that, finds themselves in the nurse’s office a lot with no explanation about what’s wrong. They have stomach aches, they have headaches, those types of things.

00;21;14;29 – 00;22;01;16

Meredith Carder

And they’ve been investigated, and we can’t find a physical reason for them. Some other things that you can see is, are those students that really do seem to be very attached to getting things done right, even when they’re in a supportive environment that are very afraid of negative consequences. Students that seem like they have a different personality when you’re with them one on one, and then when they are in the classroom, or students that seem to have a different personality with, like their specialist teacher or another, adult they’re encountering at school, because it may be that you have created a really safe environment in the classroom and these other contexts, the

00;22;01;16 – 00;22;04;14

Meredith Carder

child’s having to behave completely differently.

00;22;04;17 – 00;22;21;25

Dr. Mona

I know, I like, I feel like I by talking to you, I’m like I’m also getting inquisitive about, you know, patients myself like my kids. And I’m like it’s so it can be so hard for, for a parent to see these subtle signs sometimes. Right. Like, I mean they can be like, oh, let’s just say normal kid doing that.

00;22;21;26 – 00;22;45;29

Dr. Mona

Like that’s just a typical situation. But it is. Would you say that? It’s more like compounded sort of like, yeah, this to like bouncing leg combined with other symptoms combined with, you know, all of these because you could think that maybe some of those things are one offs. But how would you say to that parent that’s like trying to figure out, is this a quote unquote quirk, or is this something that we actually have to dive into?

00;22;46;01 – 00;23;12;12

Meredith Carder

Yeah, I think that I like to look at it as a constellation of symptoms have to come together to meet that diagnostic criteria. So are you able to identify several symptoms that fall under inattention, several symptoms that fall under hyperactivity. So a child that is, you know, pretty consistent between different contacts. They are you know, maybe, you know, most children are going to be more relaxed at home than they are at school.

00;23;12;12 – 00;23;32;27

Meredith Carder

We are usually going to see the worst of their behavior most of the time before it’s a supportive environment. Yeah. But, if you see those drastic differences, if you see multiple symptoms and if your child, you know, maybe they are getting good grades and they are to behavior problem, but they have school refusal. They don’t want to be there.

00;23;33;00 – 00;24;01;23

Meredith Carder

They don’t seem to enjoy that learning environment. That’s usually really important to look at because they’re able to achieve they’re able to meet expectations, but they’re having a lot of anxiety about having to be there. Even kids sometimes that typically can be really social in the right environments. If all of a sudden on the weekend they don’t want to do anything, they don’t want to see their friends, and sometimes that’s because they have nothing left, and that’s the recovery time.

00;24;01;23 – 00;24;17;29

Meredith Carder

So noticing those types of patterns that seem more extreme than just the normal human being behavior, sometimes I don’t want to go out on the weekends too. You know, I get it like those those things happen. But when you see that continued behavior, I think it’s really important to look at it.

00;24;18;00 – 00;24;35;12

Dr. Mona

Well, I love that you talked about the school refusal and, you know, going to the doctor’s office because, I get this a lot as a pediatrician, right? We get a lot of children, whether they have ADHD or not. The stomach aches, the headaches, you know, and from a reminder for our listeners is that our mind and body are really connected.

00;24;35;12 – 00;24;52;29

Dr. Mona

So if you’re feeling anxious, if you’re masking right, you have this friction in your body, right? You’re not able to be who you are. Do what you want to do. You’re constantly maybe twirling your hair, fidgeting, bouncing the leg. I mean, that is just anxiety and feelings in our brain that just can’t release anywhere. And it can manifest as stomach aches.

00;24;52;29 – 00;25;21;05

Dr. Mona

I mean, we see this a lot, you know, and any time I see this, it’s called something, functional abdominal pain. I’ve recorded other episodes about this for our listeners, but it is really important to look at the whole picture and sort of understand the psychological, developmental, behavioral components that go into the physical manifestations of pain. And as a pediatrician, like my role is to make sure, okay, have we ruled out all the medical right, like, am I concerned of anything here that needs a medical intervention?

00;25;21;05 – 00;25;42;00

Dr. Mona

And if not, what’s going on in the environment? And these sort of nuanced conversations are so key because it can actually be the difference of a kid wanting and enjoying going to school versus avoiding it and not liking it. And listen, I, I have a lot of gripes with the American school system. I think it’s not designed to support the different ways children learn.

00;25;42;00 – 00;26;06;01

Dr. Mona

I have said this on many other podcasts. It’s I struggle with it. Just because I feel like it’s there’s so much wrong with it. Not the fault of teachers. I’m not. I love my teachers in this world, but it’s just really hard, as a parent of a neurodiverse child, to know that you’re sending your child into like a zone where they just can’t be themselves and they are going to mask and they’re going to feel these sort of, you know, anxieties.

00;26;06;01 – 00;26;17;25

Dr. Mona

And that’s really hard as a parent. Now, let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

00;26;17;28 – 00;26;43;03

Meredith Carder

It is it’s very hard. I completely agree with you. Our schools are not designed to accommodate kids with differences and teachers can try really hard. I definitely have seen the difference between classrooms with teachers that have a strong understanding of neurodiversity versus, teachers that may not. The needle can be moved in a lot of ways, but we don’t support teachers.

00;26;43;03 – 00;27;03;22

Meredith Carder

And if we don’t give them enough resources. And so it can be really, really hard as a parent to watch your child who if they have ADHD, they likely are very curious. We call it an interest driven brain. So putting a child in an environment where their curiosity should be, you know, a strength of theirs, and then them coming home and hating it can feel really hard and sad.

00;27;03;22 – 00;27;04;29

Meredith Carder

For parents.

00;27;05;01 – 00;27;17;06

Dr. Mona

This could be it’s a whole episode in itself. Or a book. But how can adults, teachers, strangers, parents create environments where children feel safe enough to start masking?

00;27;17;08 – 00;27;28;22

Meredith Carder

So I think that let’s start with parents, because I think ultimately you don’t want to be another place your child has to mask.

00;27;28;29 – 00;27;29;26

Dr. Mona

Yeah.

00;27;29;28 – 00;27;54;20

Meredith Carder

I see it a lot with parents that, you know, the masking behaviors sometimes make your kid a more compliant kid. Sometimes they’re easier to deal with when they’re happily masking, and that is a tough pill to swallow sometimes. As a parent, when you’ve found that you’ve, you know, encourage some masking behaviors. I had to come to terms with that myself.

00;27;54;20 – 00;28;16;17

Meredith Carder

So I say this with all of the love and compassion for parents that might feel some guilt to know that they they asked their child to you, you know, mask in certain ways. An example I remember from my childhood is I was a big league bouncer, and my mom would always, like, put her hand on my plate to make me try to, like, control it because that was embarrassing for her to see me, just like not being able to sit still.

00;28;16;22 – 00;28;37;25

Meredith Carder

So I think we do this as parents. We we want our kids to behave in school. So oftentimes we’re asking them to suppress urges. So think about how your home can be a space where your child can express to you what their needs are, where they can talk to you about these things, and that we’re not asking them to mask even more.

00;28;38;02 – 00;29;03;23

Meredith Carder

I think that’s the first, and most important thing I in addition to that, as a parent, partnering with your teachers, coming in and a very collaborate way to help explain things that may work for your child. So if you know your child’s coming home with headaches and they’re able to express to you, it’s because it’s so hard for them to sit and be still all day.

00;29;03;26 – 00;29;19;05

Meredith Carder

Think about solutions that might work for your kid, and if your kid’s old enough, you can involve them. One that worked really well for my daughter is putting one of those flat like exercise bands around the leg of a chair so that she could bounce her feet, and that was great because it didn’t distract the other kids.

00;29;19;05 – 00;29;30;16

Meredith Carder

She wasn’t clicking a pen or doing something loud. But she was able to move and the teacher ended up adopting that for the whole classroom because it helped a lot of the kids.

00;29;30;18 – 00;29;32;02

Dr. Mona

Yeah.

00;29;32;04 – 00;30;00;06

Meredith Carder

I know for my daughter, she’s, in high school now for her, there’s a point where, like, socially, you know, they don’t want that band on their charity more. But we really worked on helping her understand her symptoms and be able to learn how to accommodate them versus trying to always just disguise them. So she has talked to teachers, especially in those classes in the afternoon where she’s starting to get antsy and said, hey, I really do better when I can get up and move here and there.

00;30;00;06 – 00;30;16;13

Meredith Carder

If you want somebody to take the attendance to the office or you need an errand ran like I’m your girl. So learning to communicate ways to get their needs met that, still contribute to the classroom running smoothly is really important. So.

00;30;16;15 – 00;30;39;01

Dr. Mona

In my belief, I think kids are masking more at school because there’s not this one on one connection of like understanding their needs, the teachers having to manage a lot of parent, children. But at home, have you seen or do you feel like there’s inadvertent ways that we discipline our neurodiverse children that, like, reinforces that masking, like using the example of your mom, right.

00;30;39;01 – 00;31;10;25

Dr. Mona

She put her hand on her leg. What do you think would have been a better way, like if that was something that was kind of overwhelming for her, or let’s say you’re at the kids at home clicking their pen or like tapping their knee and it’s like loud and overwhelming. How can we create a balance of allowing them to do those things, but also creating the sort of limits or environment at home that is conducive for everyone, like that balance of like allowing them to be themselves, but making sure that we’re not masking them and also making sure everyone in the family is okay with what’s happening here.

00;31;10;27 – 00;31;32;26

Meredith Carder

Yeah, I think that involving your child as much as you can and the solution is really, really important. So if it is the clicking the pen and that’s driving you crazy because. Right, you know, that is a really annoying repetitive noise. Asking your child what are some other ways you can move your body that, work better for everyone around and they might come up with something?

00;31;32;29 – 00;31;58;29

Meredith Carder

I think that hyperactivity is something that just needs to be expressed with children a lot of times. So if you notice your your child is, acting like pretty wild and they kind of all over the place at home, like maybe getting them outside and doing a, structured activity will help calm that need to you. And that way you’re not yelling at them and sending them to their room because they are being disruptive to everybody else around them.

00;31;58;29 – 00;32;20;14

Meredith Carder

You’re giving them a way to express it, and it’s a hard balancing act because lots of people have multiple kids. Many of us are exhausted at the end of the day after work, and we don’t want to go to the park, but, that usually when we can put some effort into meeting those needs instead of suppressing the need, it usually will, you know, kind of end up in a calmer environment for everyone.

00;32;20;17 – 00;32;34;17

Dr. Mona

I love that. I think that’s so important for people to hear that we’re not shutting down the way that they cope in their body, right. But we’re redirecting it to another way. Like there’s so many ways that will give them that same stimulus, that same sort of feeling that they want to do of moving their leg, clicking the pen.

00;32;34;22 – 00;32;54;19

Dr. Mona

I just think about my my son. My son has, we believe, is ADHD. We don’t talk up. We haven’t talked about all my social, but I’ve mentioned it on my podcast. My husband also has ADHD and he’s a very rough and tumble. He cannot sit still. He likes to move from activity to activity. And like you said, if he’s not focused on something or like something, he’s going to lose interest.

00;32;54;22 – 00;33;14;02

Dr. Mona

And so the tumbling thing is an example. So when we had a younger daughter, like he would tumble in the place where she would be, she would not he would knock her over meltdowns, like just in her, in his space. So then we just gave him a very particular place that he can do his tumbling like, hey, I want you to tumble from this chair to there.

00;33;14;02 – 00;33;32;13

Dr. Mona

And he was able to get his tumbling out. I wasn’t stopping his desire to tumble, but it was more this sort of, here’s what we can do, but where can we do it? Like if you want to go? And then sometimes he likes to talk out loud when he’s speaking or when he’s doing work, like he’ll do a Lego and he talks to himself and he just likes to hear the sound of his voice.

00;33;32;16 – 00;33;48;16

Dr. Mona

And it’s hard after a long day. And so we’ll be like, hey, sweetie, you are like talking to yourself right now. Right now, everyone’s downstairs. If you want to continue doing that, why don’t you go to your room and enjoy and we’ll get you for dinner. And he’s like, okay, mommy. So rather than saying, God, you’re so annoying, like, why are you talking so much?

00;33;48;19 – 00;34;04;08

Dr. Mona

I think that can really help. And this is applicable to all children, whether they are happy or not, that like, how can we get their need for what they’re trying to do and just redirect it or move them without shame, you know, or like you’re a bad kid or that you’re not supposed to be doing that.

00;34;04;11 – 00;34;26;27

Meredith Carder

Yeah, that shame component is so important to you to think about when we are, teaching our kids how to accommodate their behaviors because it is more it’s just simpler to say, please don’t do that. Go to your room. You know, or like we we might not be as regulated to. So we might say something like, you are on my nerves when you do that.

00;34;26;27 – 00;34;40;08

Meredith Carder

But over time, when kids are getting that message over and over again from their parents, from their teachers, that creates, a big wall of shame. And that can lead to a bunch of other unwanted outcomes.

00;34;40;11 – 00;34;54;16

Dr. Mona

So for parents who are hearing this and recognizing their child and maybe seeing this situation, what is a supportive first step they can take to approaching, undoing the supporting of masking? Kind of summarizing your take home point for today.

00;34;54;19 – 00;35;38;16

Meredith Carder

I think the first step is to really educate yourself about ADHD and the masking component, and then begin those conversations with your child, depending on what age they are, the amount that you share is going to be different. And then identifying areas that you can allow them to drop that mask a little bit more. So if there is a behavior that’s really hard for them to control at school, and they’ve really been using a lot of resources to control it, help them create a solution for you, and then have that conversation with the teacher saying, hey, we know that out in the past, these behaviors were impactful, and he’s been talked about, you know,

00;35;38;17 – 00;35;58;14

Meredith Carder

with these behaviors. But here’s what we’re going to try instead and try to get them on board. A lot of times, the best success I’ve had with my own kids is when I really try to partner with teachers to create an environment that works better for my child’s, and most of the time, I have found the teachers I’ve encountered have been receptive.

00;35;58;14 – 00;36;30;25

Meredith Carder

There have been a few that have not been as receptive. And again, I know there’s a lot on their plate, but finding those ways to make those shifts can make a really big difference, because kids spend a lot of time in environments that aren’t their home. And if we can make those environments more comfortable for them, then we are able to help them really do what they’re there to do, learn and get in touch with what they are good at and what they are interested in when they’re not as distracted with having to cover up some behaviors.

00;36;30;28 – 00;36;46;28

Dr. Mona

I love the the community aspect and the teamwork. And I think, you know, as a pediatrician, one of my biggest frustrations is when I’m in the office is when I get a parent coming in frustrated at their teacher. And then or the teacher is not communicating directly to the parent. And I’m like, what a dream world.

00;36;46;28 – 00;37;07;25

Dr. Mona

If we can like three of us all sit in like a room and just be like, hey, here’s what’s going on from a developmental standpoint. Here’s what you need to do, and here’s what we’re doing at home. So everyone’s on that same page so that they understand, you know, and I love that you’re advocating for that, because I do also agree that the first step of getting help is to actually ask for it and say what your kid needs.

00;37;07;25 – 00;37;24;10

Dr. Mona

And it’s like any situation like, I feel like we we don’t advocate for our kids enough, and maybe it’s out of fear. Maybe it’s out if we don’t know how to. Or maybe we think that they don’t have the time, but like you said, we don’t know until we ask. And it can really make the biggest difference for the entire child’s experience.

00;37;24;10 – 00;37;30;25

Dr. Mona

And I, I love that you’re focusing on that, because that is so huge, because all we want is to support our children and how their brain works.

00;37;30;27 – 00;37;49;15

Meredith Carder

Yeah, I think that’s the ultimate goal, right. And I think most people that are in professions that are around children want to help them too. So when we can go in with a non adversarial approach, not putting people on the defense automatically and that come in as you know, with that desire to be a team, I think it makes a big difference.

00;37;49;17 – 00;37;59;06

Dr. Mona

Thank you so much for this conversation. I always ask my guests, now, what is something that is making you happy in your life right now? And what is something that’s giving you a lot of hope?

00;37;59;08 – 00;38;24;13

Meredith Carder

You know, I think I mentioned that two out of my three kids have ADHD. My middle child is now a junior in high school, and I’ve watched her progression, and just been amazed by it. She has become a really great advocate for herself and watching those skills at work. It’s just been amazing what she’s been able to accomplish.

00;38;24;13 – 00;38;43;16

Meredith Carder

And I feel that she is at a point where her strengths are what people are seeing versus the struggles. The struggles are still there, but she knows how to accommodate them. So they’re not covering up the amazing kid she is. And the same is happening with my son. We’re a few years behind in the process with him.

00;38;43;16 – 00;38;54;24

Meredith Carder

He’s much younger, but, when you can see your kid really start to understand themselves better, advocate for themselves, and have a better experience of life because of it, it’s extremely rewarding.

00;38;54;28 – 00;39;09;18

Dr. Mona

Oh, I love it. I love hearing that perspective as a mother. Thank you so much for joining me. I feel like I learned a lot too, which I love when I can have guests that teach me and also our listeners learn so much. So where can people go to stay connected on the work that you do? And to learn more.

00;39;09;21 – 00;39;30;15

Meredith Carder

You can visit, my profile on Instagram. It’s hummingbird underscore ADHD. I post there at least a few times a week. I also write longer pieces on Substack, and, that Substack is called it all makes sense now ADHD insights if you Google that, you’ll find it. And then you can always pick up my book as well.

00;39;30;18 – 00;39;35;20

Meredith Carder

That’s called it all makes sense. Now embrace your ADHD brain to live a creative and colorful life.

00;39;35;20 – 00;39;50;23

Dr. Mona

It is so nice connecting with you. I love this conversation. I’m happy that we have also connected in person. That is like the ultimate awesome moment I get as a podcaster to finally meet the people that come on in person. So thank you for the amazing work that you’re doing. This is so amazing to learn from you.

00;39;50;27 – 00;39;55;20

Meredith Carder

Yeah, it was a great conversation. Thank you so much for having me.

00;39;55;23 – 00;40;15;11

Dr. Mona

Wow. I absolutely love this conversation with Meredith, and I hope it gave you a new perspective on how we understand and support children with ADHD. I think my biggest takeaway is something I want every parent, teacher, and adult who works with children to remember. Just because a child is meeting expectations doesn’t mean meeting those expectations. It’s easy for them.

00;40;15;14 – 00;40;35;16

Dr. Mona

We often look at behavior as a measure of how well a child is doing. They’re sitting still, getting good grades, following directions, and not disrupting the classroom. So we assume everything is fine. But what we don’t always see is the amount of energy some children are using to hold it all together. And when they finally get home, that exhaustion, frustration or emotional overload may come pouring out.

00;40;35;19 – 00;40;57;19

Dr. Mona

I haven’t shared a lot on my social media, but I’ve shared it on my podcast. My husband has ADHD and my son also does, and I see so much of this in him. I haven’t seen this in my daughter as much because she doesn’t have ADHD that we can see it, but it’s so important to know the child in front of you, understand how we can support them so we can be their biggest advocate.

00;40;57;21 – 00;41;18;25

Dr. Mona

Now, I also want to be clear that not every child who melts down after school is masking ADHD. There can be many reasons children struggle after a long day, but when we’re seeing persistent patterns, especially alongside other signs of ADHD or neurodivergent, it’s worth looking a little closer. Another part of the conversation that really stuck with me was how we unintentionally encourage masking, even with the best intentions.

00;41;18;27 – 00;41;40;03

Dr. Mona

When a child is constantly moving, making noises, talking or fidgeting, our first instinct might be to tell them to stop and listen. I get it, we have needs to. We can get overstimulated to. Sometimes the repetitive clicking of a pen or constant movement is overwhelming for everyone else in the room. But what if instead of simply asking our children to stop, we help them find another way to meet that need?

00;41;40;05 – 00;42;03;29

Dr. Mona

Maybe your child who needs to move their body. We help them find a safer place to do it. We can still have limits. We can still teach consideration for other people, and we can do that without making children feel ashamed of how their brains and bodies work. And I think that’s the bigger message here. Our goal is to help children understand themselves well enough to advocate for what they need, while also learning how to live and work alongside others.

00;42;04;01 – 00;42;29;17

Dr. Mona

If there’s one thing I hope you do after listening is to get curious about a child who may be struggling. Talk to them, partner with their teachers, ask what would make their day easier, and remember that sometimes the smallest adjustments can make a meaningful difference. Please share this episode with a parent whose child holds it together at school, but struggles at home, a teacher who wants to support neurodivergent students, or an adult who may recognize some of these masking behaviors in themselves.

00;42;29;19 – 00;42;49;26

Dr. Mona

And when you share it on social media, make sure to tag the PedsDocTalk podcast, PedsDocTalk , and at hummingbird underscore ADHD. We’d love to hear what stood out for you. Thank you for being here, for continuing to learn and for being willing to see children beyond their behavior. I’ll catch you all next time for another episode of the Dog Talk podcast.

00;42;50;00 – 00;42;50;16

Dr. Mona

Stay well.