In this episode, I sit down with a scientist and science communicator who has spent the last five years in the middle of online health conversations, especially during and after the pandemic. We talk honestly about why accurate information often feels boring on social media, while fear based content spreads fast. This is not a conversation about blaming parents or shaming curiosity. It is about understanding how trust works, why it has been strained, and what actually helps people feel safe enough to learn.

We also get real about the mistakes science and medicine made during the pandemic, especially using black and white language around safety and effectiveness. We talk about why nuance matters, why people are capable of understanding complexity when it is explained well, and why showing up as a real human, not a polished authority figure, is one of the most powerful tools we have right now in public health communication.

In this episode, we cover:

• Why misinformation spreads faster than accurate health information online

• How fear, outrage, and certainty drive engagement on social media

• The role trust plays in whether people believe data at all

• Why “safe and effective” language backfired for many families

• How oversimplifying science pushed people away instead of helping

• Financial conflicts of interest and why they matter when evaluating health claims

• The pattern of fear first, product second in wellness content

• Why credentials alone do not guarantee honesty or accuracy

• How being relatable and human builds more trust than perfection

• What science communicators can do differently moving forward

• Why we need more doctors and scientists showing up online, not fewer

To connect with Dr. Noc follow him on Instagram @dr.noc, check out all his resources at ⁠linktr.ee/dr.noc⁠ and follow him on Substack: ⁠drnoc.substack.com/subscribe⁠

00:00 – Why Fear Spreads Faster Than Facts Online

01:36 – Introducing Dr. Morgan “Dr. Noc” McSweeney

03:00 – Meeting Dr. Noc and Finding Science Communicators Online

05:38 – Dr. Noc’s Background in Pharmaceutical Science and Biotech

06:21 – Why He Started Creating Science Content During the Pandemic

06:59 – The Learning Curve of Creating Educational Content Online

07:23 – Why Science Must Be Communicated Beyond Academia

08:04 – Social Media as a Public Health Battleground

08:24 – Why “Just Showing the Data” Often Doesn’t Work

09:07 – The Real Problem: Trust in Science and Institutions

09:47 – How People Decide Who to Trust Online

10:03 – Why Most People Don’t Understand How Clinical Trials Work10:51 – How Extreme Messaging During the Pandemic Hurt Trust11:45 – Why Saying “Benefits Outweigh Risks” Builds More Trust58:46 – Final Thoughts: How Truth Can Still Win Online

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00;00;00;02 – 00;00;23;03

Dr. Noc

Certainly data can be boring in very much the way that carrots can make their way into a dish that is not delicious or, if prepared correctly, right? You can make any number of extremely delicious dishes with carrots or any other vegetable or whatever it might be. And so I think the mistake that happens a lot of the time is we think that the solution to some uncertainty in public health is a lack of data.

 

00;00;23;05 – 00;00;42;21

Dr. Noc

And so the solution therefore, is generate more data and throw more data at the problem. Yeah. Unfortunately I think that’s not really the core issue. The issue is people don’t know who they can trust or what they can trust. Can you even trust the data? Right. Because the people producing that data are the same people who potentially could stand to profit if that data ended up being true, right.

 

00;00;42;22 – 00;00;52;03

Dr. Noc

And that’s not always certainly not always the case. But then maybe the perception.

 

00;00;52;06 – 00;01;12;23

Dr. Mona

Hello and welcome back to the show. You are listening to the PedsDocTalk podcast. And did you know that we are in our sixth year of the podcast? I have been creating online content for seven years and in that time I have seen the internet change in real time. I have seen thoughtful education get drowned out by louder voices of misinformation.

 

00;01;12;25 – 00;01;35;20

Dr. Mona

I’ve seen fear spread faster than facts, and I have seen how quickly one viral post can shape how parents view medicine or children’s health. Have you ever noticed that the most extreme takes off and travel the fastest? Have you ever wondered why nuanced, evidence based conversations do not always trend, or why someone speaking confidently online can feel more trustworthy than decades of research?

 

00;01;35;22 – 00;01;57;00

Dr. Mona

These are questions I sit with often. So this conversation today felt especially meaningful because I get to talk with someone who is also in the trenches of science communication online. Doctor Morgan McSweeney, better known online as Doctor Noc has a PhD in Pharmaceutical Sciences with training in immunology and works in biotech developing treatments for respiratory infections. I mean, hello education.

 

00;01;57;02 – 00;02;21;07

Dr. Mona

He stepped into social media during the pandemic, when he saw misinformation spreading rapidly, and decided to use his expertise to push back with clarity, humor and evidence. In this conversation, we talk about why misinformation spreads faster than the truth, how algorithms reward emotional content, how consumers of this information can better evaluate sources, and what science communicators need to do differently, and why we need to show up online.

 

00;02;21;09 – 00;02;43;14

Dr. Mona

If you care about what shows up in your feed and how it shapes your decision, this episode is for you. Make sure you subscribe and download again. Downloads are what helps. Share this episode with your favorite friends or even people who are not your favorite. Because people need this information, that support helps the show continue to grow and also helps elevate thoughtful health conversations.

 

00;02;43;16 – 00;02;59;28

Dr. Mona

Make sure you join us on social media. PedsDocTalk the PedsDocTalk podcast, and Doctor Noc, Dr. Dot Noc. and let’s get into today’s conversation.

 

00;03;00;02 – 00;03;15;18

Dr. Mona

I’m so excited to finally have you on my show fangirling, because you are a huge presence online, and I feel like I got you on the show. Like I feel like I, I hit a celebrity, if you will. I know you don’t feel like it, probably, but I’m so grateful to have you on. Thank you for joining me.

 

00;03;15;25 – 00;03;18;21

Dr. Noc

I appreciate the invitation. Yeah. Happy to chat. Thank you.

 

00;03;18;24 – 00;03;35;28

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And you know, I first started following you. I would say that I knew you probably existed in the pandemic, but I kind of was in the pandemic educating. And then I went through my own secondary infertility. I wasn’t actually scrolling that much online. I was just creating my own content. And then for the best sometimes. Yeah. And it was.

 

00;03;35;28 – 00;03;58;09

Dr. Mona

And it really was a balance I needed for myself. And then in this new administration in and I say that because there’s been a lot of misinformation from higher ups, you actually came back up on my, my channels. A lot of people were sharing your content. So surprisingly, I’m actually a newer follow to you, but I would say in 2025 and then I’m binge watching all of your videos and I’m like, oh my God, this is amazing.

 

00;03;58;14 – 00;04;20;01

Dr. Mona

And I want to say that because as a fellow educator, I love learning from other educators on how to better communicate science and how to better create videos. And you are one of those inspirations for me. So off the bat, thank you for not only the work you do for our followers and the community. That may not be a science literate as us, but thank you also for helping me learn.

 

00;04;20;01 – 00;04;25;17

Dr. Mona

You know how to be online like it’s a huge thing and I love following people that can inspire me in that way.

 

00;04;25;19 – 00;04;43;22

Dr. Noc

I really appreciate that. And I do the same thing. In fact, I think in all of social media, there’s no no hesitance. There’s no shame in looking for what types of content are performing. Well, you just copy it, you know, put your own spin on it, tell your own story, look like it’s all a question of how do we tell stories to each other about whatever topic we’re talking about?

 

00;04;43;25 – 00;04;54;21

Dr. Noc

And storytelling for ages, maybe all of human history, like you’re always hearing the story from someone and then you tell the story to someone else. So I think that’s a very natural evolution. Like we do the same thing on social media.

 

00;04;54;24 – 00;05;13;11

Dr. Mona

And you are obviously not just a content creator. You this is not your day job. You’re also a scientist. You have a PhD, you’re a lecturer, a researcher. What’s your background in science and medicine and what pushed you from that more academic world into the chaos of social media? Was there like a turning point where you’re like, I got to go online, like people need me?

 

00;05;13;13 – 00;05;37;13

Dr. Noc

Yeah. It was coincidentally in February of 2020. Oh, there we go. Before that, I’m still actually so I do a lot of work. In fact, most of the work that I do, I don’t ever talk about online. And that’s the work I do in science, in biotech. I was trained in pharmaceutical sciences, in immunology. So in grad school I was studying, you know, immune responses against therapeutics, which is something you don’t want to have happen if you’re taking a drug you don’t want to have, like an allergic or an anaphylactic response.

 

00;05;37;21 – 00;06;02;21

Dr. Noc

So I studied ways to stop that from happening. After grad school, I moved into biotech. So still now I work on the development of treatments for mostly respiratory infectious disease, type of treatment called an antibody. You know, for flu, influenza, Covid and the like. I don’t do any personal work on vaccines. But in developing treatments, I do work in what are called preclinical studies, as well as some clinical studies.

 

00;06;02;23 – 00;06;21;23

Dr. Noc

And the distinction there is preclinical studies are usually animal work. So either you’re looking for efficacy or for toxicology in animal studies to justify going into clinical studies. So that’s the work that I do, what I consider professionally. And then on the social media side, I started it right at the beginning of the pandemic, specifically because of the pandemic.

 

00;06;21;25 – 00;06;41;11

Dr. Noc

Just personally browsing Instagram and TikTok and everything and seeing a lot of very questionable information out there and at the time, not really seeing very many evidence based content creators, certainly not people who actually studied coronaviruses making content. So I thought, why not give it a shot? And of course, the content was extremely bad for a very long time.

 

00;06;41;11 – 00;06;46;03

Dr. Noc

I still have a lot of way to go. I can’t even watch my content from back then without.

 

00;06;46;04 – 00;06;59;25

Dr. Mona

I feel the same way. I mean, I’ve been on. So now you would. So you’ve been on since 2020. So. Yeah, at the time of this recording, five years, same like I, I tell my husband, I’m like, man, I’ve evolved so much. And just doing content creation, which is important, we got evolved to be better communicators.

 

00;06;59;27 – 00;07;23;06

Dr. Noc

It changes and you learn a lot along the way because obviously we don’t have any formal training either in the science side by training or you’re training in medicine, like how to effectively communicate medical topics in short form video that’ll perform well on Instagram. Like that’s not a part of the consideration. There’s a lot about how do you talk to patients, how do you put together a scientific seminar to speak to other scientists, which is valuable, and it has its place.

 

00;07;23;09 – 00;07;46;18

Dr. Noc

But I think much more valuable is how do you effectively communicate science to everyone else? Right. It doesn’t matter if only within, you know, the Ivy League towers people have a rigorous understanding of the benefit risk ratios of vaccines or other treatments. It only matters if that can get communicated to everyone else in a way that feels approachable and feels inviting, and doesn’t feel like you’re getting made fun of for not understanding whatever the topic might be.

 

00;07;46;20 – 00;08;04;07

Dr. Mona

I love that, and again, you are bringing all of this important information to people who need it, and I am trying to do the same. And obviously the areas that I feel like I have better credibility in and, you know, more, more experience in being a pediatrician. And I believe you’ve called social media a public health battleground, or that term has been thrown out.

 

00;08;04;07 – 00;08;24;03

Dr. Mona

And that’s not dramatic. It’s actually very accurate, especially now as we’re recording this. What do you think drives content to go viral? And how can we take that boring. I’m putting it in quote air quotes for anyone who can’t see me. Boring. Information like the truth. And how can we make that go viral, too, to be able to reach more people?

 

00;08;24;06 – 00;08;46;13

Dr. Noc

Yeah, it’s a I think that’s a fundamental question that is going to decide public health over the next 10 or 15 years. Yeah. And the way I think of it is certainly data can be boring in very much the way that carrots can make their way into a dish that is not delicious or, if prepared correctly, right. You can make any number of extremely delicious dishes with carrots or any other vegetable or whatever it might be.

 

00;08;46;16 – 00;09;06;29

Dr. Noc

And so I think the mistake that happens a lot of the time is we think that the solution to some uncertainty in public health is a lack of data. And so the solution therefore, is generate more data and throw more data at the problem. Yeah. Unfortunately I think that’s not really the core issue. The issue is people don’t know who they can trust or what they can trust.

 

00;09;07;02 – 00;09;28;11

Dr. Noc

Can you even trust the data? Right. Because the people producing that data are the same people who potentially could stand to profit if that data ended up being true. Right. And that’s not always, certainly not always the case. But then maybe the perception. So then if that’s your mindset or your understanding of how the space works and someone says, oh, we’ll just look at the data and you don’t know if you can trust the data in the first place, you’re back at square one.

 

00;09;28;14 – 00;09;47;02

Dr. Noc

And so I think fundamentally it comes down to an issue of trust, like how do you determine who to trust? Which is a complicated question because obviously even people with professional credentials that could be scientists, they could be accomplished physicians who’ve been practicing for decades can turn around and spread a bunch of misinformation. And that happens all the time.

 

00;09;47;05 – 00;10;03;20

Dr. Noc

And so how do you determine, like someone who maybe is not in science or medicine, if that person is truly the canary in the coal mine, you know, pulling back the cover on this corrupt industry or you don’t know if it’s corrupt or maybe corrupt, or they’re just trying to sell you your supplements for whatever it might be.

 

00;10;03;22 – 00;10;24;25

Dr. Noc

And so part of the challenge for me is trying to think about these topics, like how to communicate them from not knowing what I know about how clinical trials are run. And that was one of the mistakes I made early on in science. Communication is like assuming people knew like, what are the different phases of clinical studies? What is the daily data safety monitoring board and how do they handle financial conflicts of interest?

 

00;10;24;28 – 00;10;35;08

Dr. Noc

Most people have no idea what that is, but that’s critically important to understanding why you can trust data from big clinical studies, even if they were funded by pharmaceutical companies. Because there’s this layers of checks and balances.

 

00;10;35;10 – 00;10;51;18

Dr. Mona

I love this. I mean, this is already so important. I mean, the exactly what you just mentioned about, like the checks and balances and how people we cannot expect the people who need this information to know all of this stuff. Right? I mean, this is obviously stuff that even within the experts, people are always trying to trying to learn.

 

00;10;51;20 – 00;11;08;17

Dr. Mona

And I love that you already talked about the the experts also being a problem as well. Right? Because I think a lot of the times when we talk about, listen to the experts look at the data, I mean, those phrases got thrown out a lot in the pandemic as well. Right? Listen. And and I think we did a huge disservice.

 

00;11;08;17 – 00;11;45;10

Dr. Mona

And when I say we I’m saying science communication in general in the pandemic with a lot of extreme language, a lot of you must and a lot of this is completely safe, like a lot of that black and white language coming from whether it was the higher ups in the CDC, mainstream media and even science communication. And I also like you said, I looked at videos when the pandemic first started and I was like horrified with not only my video production quality as like a creator, but also just about how I worded things, you know, and I’ve really changed and moved away from those extreme languages and giving you an example of vaccines, right?

 

00;11;45;10 – 00;11;57;25

Dr. Mona

Instead of saying it’s 100% safe, the benefits outweigh the risks. Like, to me, that actually is psychologically true. And it also makes sense for that consumer who’s like, you can’t say it’s 100% safe. Like, right. That is what we just.

 

00;11;57;25 – 00;11;58;20

Dr. Noc

Proved in a second.

 

00;11;58;20 – 00;12;31;02

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And so then when you say that it’s safe, it’s safe or it’s effective. And that happened a lot. Right. With the Covid vaccine. And then now people are like, how come I took the vaccine and now I’m getting Covid. That’s not effective. So I think in a way like you said, is so key, how we communicate. What would you say in terms of like things that you saw, whether early on in the pandemic or maybe now, what are some pitfalls that you think fellow science communicators may fall into that can make they can push people away a little bit, you know, and I know we’re not perfect, myself and you included.

 

00;12;31;08 – 00;12;38;28

Dr. Mona

But what are you seeing as those trends that you’re like, you know what, I think people need this versus this when it comes to consuming and understanding this information.

 

00;12;39;05 – 00;12;58;26

Dr. Noc

Yeah. And big one for me. And I’ve changed my mind on this over the years. Yeah. Because I was the same way as all the rest of science communicators initially, which is a big reluctance to really show your personality and to do anything other than like how you would present science standing in front of a big seminar, like all professional and formal and everything.

 

00;12;58;28 – 00;13;14;18

Dr. Noc

So back in 2021, like this was right after the vaccines were coming out, I was doing a live stream. Of course, everybody’s questions were about the Covid vaccines and the data and the safety and everything. So I spent 95% of the live stream talking about that, which was the wrong thing, that it was important at the time, but it shouldn’t have made me that 95%.

 

00;13;14;25 – 00;13;32;10

Dr. Noc

But then at the very end, I said, sorry, I’ve got to go. I’ve got to go make dinner. My wife is coming home from the hospital. Sorry. Bye. And I needed a live stream. And then, you know, we had dinner and everything came back. Check my messages later. And this is like, you probably get as many messages as I do.

 

00;13;32;12 – 00;13;50;08

Dr. Noc

This one sticks out to me all these years later because it was like, man, I didn’t know whether I could trust you. Or like, if you were in Big Pharma or whatever it was. I can’t remember the exact wording. I should have screenshotted it, but basically the sentiment was, I don’t know if I could believe you until you said you had to go because you were going to make dinner for your wife.

 

00;13;50;08 – 00;14;12;13

Dr. Noc

And then I realized, like, you’re just a regular person and you’re trying to communicate what you know to the best of your ability, and you’re not some, you know, showing you’re being disingenuous in what you’re saying. And what that made me realize is the content that you make and the way that you talk to people both in real life and over the internet, on social media, content doesn’t have to be rigorously formal.

 

00;14;12;13 – 00;14;37;02

Dr. Noc

In fact, it shouldn’t be rigorously formal, because what people need to know is that you are a real person. They need to build a relationship with you just like they would in real life, just like they would 100,000 years ago. If they’re trying to figure out, should I trust this person to have my back in some certain circumstance, they need to feel like they know who you are as a person, and that can’t happen if the only thing you ever do is stand in front of a data panel and say, look at the x axis, look at the y axis.

 

00;14;37;04 – 00;14;50;24

Dr. Noc

Clearly the odds ratio is supportive. And so as a result, I try to do more fun stuff, not just for the purpose of like making people feel like I’m a human. Although I do get accused of being I sometimes, interestingly, but like silly dances or.

 

00;14;50;24 – 00;15;08;09

Dr. Mona

Jokes, you’re you’re, your speech pattern is very, very therapeutic. And it has an AI type pattern of times. And so I know I can assure you that this is not a robot, guys, he’s really talking to me and he’s on video, but it’s very soothing, like a, like almost like a robotic in a non in a very nice way, by the way.

 

00;15;08;09 – 00;15;10;25

Dr. Mona

It’s a compliment, but I can see why you why you.

 

00;15;11;00 – 00;15;12;15

Dr. Noc

Keep fighting the battle improving.

 

00;15;12;15 – 00;15;16;20

Dr. Mona

But he’s real, guys. He’s real. Yeah, yeah.

 

00;15;16;22 – 00;15;35;19

Dr. Noc

But I think this is the mistake that everyone like certainly industry makes and the CDC and the like, if you try to think of someone at the CDC, most people probably can’t come up with a single face or maybe one or, you know, probably no one at the NIH, like everyone, probably picture RFK Jr now. But previously, do you know who the prior health secretary was?

 

00;15;35;20 – 00;15;59;01

Dr. Noc

Probably not. Yeah. And so for those organizations to then say, you know, people think the CDC is this big, faceless institution that’s telling me what to do and restricting freedoms in some way, but I don’t know anyone there. How do I know if I should trust them? I think what would really make a big difference is if the CDC tried to incorporate some of this authenticity and making content just showing, like, who are the people coming up with these recommendations?

 

00;15;59;04 – 00;16;19;13

Dr. Noc

Yeah. What’s the process they went through? That’s another thing. Like you were saying, the oversimplification of safe and effective to this day, aka junior says there is no vaccine for at least in clips from a couple of years ago on podcasts, you would say there is no vaccine that is safe and effective, which, you know, like you’re saying, maybe can be a little bit true because nothing is 100% safe, nothing is 100% effective.

 

00;16;19;15 – 00;16;37;01

Dr. Noc

There’s new ones there, and you’re looking at the balance of the benefits and the risks. The mistake I think that people make is assuming that people don’t want to know that nuance. Right. I think people really do. And people have a much greater capacity for understanding, you know, how was the clinical trial designed? How was that monitoring board set up?

 

00;16;37;07 – 00;16;50;24

Dr. Noc

How do I know I can trust them? I think people would much rather know those details and come to a decision themselves rather than be told, don’t worry about it. You know, it was fine, the data was good. Just take the vaccine or whatever it was.

 

00;16;50;27 – 00;17;12;14

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show. And you’re right, because when we talk about what drives on social. Right, extremes drive. Right. So if you say this thing is going to kill you or this thing causes blood clots versus you say it’s safe, and if you don’t do it, you’re going to die.

 

00;17;12;14 – 00;17;30;25

Dr. Mona

Like just say the extremes of vaccines. Right? And then if you actually explain what it is, why the benefits outweigh the risk, it can seem we’ve talked I’ve talked about this before. It seems non sexy. Right. It’s like who’s going to want to click on that because it’s not the extreme. It’s not that clickbait. And so that I agree because those are the conversations I’m having.

 

00;17;30;25 – 00;17;50;11

Dr. Mona

I am having nuanced conversations every single day. And I love what you just said about the personalization, because I noticed that when I started doing more of that personalization online is when I felt more authentic with the creating, but also when it started resonating more right with my followers. And, and I think a lot of a lot of people have trouble with that.

 

00;17;50;13 – 00;18;23;12

Dr. Mona

Even the ones who are online like to really show themselves as humans. And maybe for my fellow doctors, it’s because we were like, trained in this sort of like, you know, that we are this respectful figure and that we have to have it all together. But as a mother and as someone who went through the pandemic as a new mom, sharing those stories, sharing my my reservations around the Covid vaccine because it was new, because I didn’t, you know, all this stuff and like, it was very, like very reassuring to a lot of people that when I said, hey, I’m going to get this vaccine or I’m going to do this, like you

 

00;18;23;12 – 00;18;34;08

Dr. Mona

said, it was very reassuring to them. And I and I think I love what you’re saying about humanizing yourself because people don’t want to learn from a robot, even though you are one doctor. Not just kidding.

 

00;18;34;11 – 00;18;49;22

Dr. Noc

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I think the only way to prove that we’re not AI generated. Yeah, that we have older videos at this point, like, yes, exactly. Someone who starts making content five years from now, it’s going to be really no matter what you do, no matter how many dances you do or whatever.

 

00;18;49;25 – 00;19;18;12

Dr. Noc

Like I’m going to have a hard time believing whether or not you’re a real person unless there’s some good regulation that gets passed to that effect. So I think as a result, I mean, people, at least I and people around me are very turned off by what’s called AI slap, you know, to the effect where even if someone produced a film or a movie or a piece of art that was better than what 99.9% of actual human artists could produce, if, you know it’s AI generated that sort of like you’re not interested.

 

00;19;18;12 – 00;19;42;10

Dr. Noc

Or at least I’m not interested in that. I would much rather see something that is authentically created by humans, even if it’s not technically as wonderful as what the AI generated. And so to me, that says it’s more of what should we not do? Rather than what should we do? And what we should not do is take away everything that makes us us or makes us human.

 

00;19;42;13 – 00;20;05;14

Dr. Noc

We’re not striving to get to that level of like I say, clinical perfection, which is actually a bad term because I think, yeah, Clint. Oh, that’s interesting actually. So that term like clinical, as an adjective usually means scrupulously like meticulous, like you’re saying, taking out the human element, just having, like, the evidence based decision making. I think that’s probably not what actually happens in clinical practice.

 

00;20;05;14 – 00;20;22;05

Dr. Noc

That’s an interesting language bit. And I forgot what I was talking about because that but basically, overall, I think people are turned off by AI. And what that tells us is people are going to be increasingly seeking radical authenticity in whatever way you can make that happen.

 

00;20;22;12 – 00;20;39;25

Dr. Mona

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it’s so important in this landscape of now that we have AI, now that we have a lot of misinformation and how to balance that as creators. And, you know, I, I can’t even imagine creating an AI video. I don’t even know where to start. And I don’t think I’m like, even if I learned how I like it being my face.

 

00;20;39;25 – 00;20;53;17

Dr. Mona

But I love that you said that I can anytime people are like, is she real? I can be like, you want to see this grainy video from 2020? Like, look at the bad lighting and look at how I just it was like, there was a haze over it. I don’t know what was happening with my camera. But this is real.

 

00;20;53;20 – 00;21;16;15

Dr. Mona

So I, I definitely agree with that. And, you know, we talked about those, those creators online that may have the knowledge, may have that title. Right. And right now, what I’m seeing as a pediatrician and I, I knew it would happen, is all those pediatricians coming out of the woodworks to, again, maybe sell a supplement, sell their books about the anti-vaxx movement.

 

00;21;16;15 – 00;21;42;18

Dr. Mona

Right. And we knew it was going to happen, and I called it like two years ago. And like, all of a sudden, these fringe doctors that were like, kind of on the borderline of jumping ship are now going to jump ship. They’re going to start going making their rounds on podcasts. And lo and behold, all of the wellness podcasts right now, you’re talking about the Joe Rogan’s, the Mark Hyman, the Huberman, like all of those podcasts, are now getting the same pediatricians that are like, are vaccines really safe?

 

00;21;42;18 – 00;22;01;18

Dr. Mona

And let’s be this lone wolf, right. Like we’re talking about how can a consumer of this information know in your opinion, like how would you educate that person on like when to know it’s legitimate, when to know it’s misinformation, how to get curious about the content that they’re seeing. And even if they can’t tell I, that’s a different story.

 

00;22;01;18 – 00;22;07;00

Dr. Mona

But like if it’s true, generated content, what is what is true? What should they get more curious about?

 

00;22;07;00 – 00;22;41;12

Dr. Noc

Yeah, I think it’s getting harder to tell what is true and what’s not true. I mean, it used to be as boring as they might have been that, you know, the head of HHS and the CDC and the FDA did have good rigorously based guidelines in evidence. And that is still true, obviously, for most of the information and the vast majority of scientists within the CDC, FDA, NIH, but, you know, it used to be possible to say that if somebody is at odds with these world leading medical organizations, probably that person is missing something or is misrepresenting something, or at the very least, they need an enormous amount of data to back up

 

00;22;41;12 – 00;23;04;23

Dr. Noc

what they’re saying is true, not just some anecdotes. Now it’s getting harder because what these people talking a wellness podcast are saying might echo what you’re hearing from the head of HHS, which is more confusing. And, you know, it starts to make it seem like, well, maybe they were right all along, which they weren’t. It just happens that we have someone who can’t evaluate evidence in a rigorous way as the head of HHS.

 

00;23;04;26 – 00;23;16;14

Dr. Noc

So things to look out for specifically, like you’re saying, are financial conflicts of interest. And I consider each of these red flags not to be an absolute contraindication. It’s not like if someone is selling something.

 

00;23;16;16 – 00;23;18;29

Dr. Mona

They can’t automatically truth. Right? Right.

 

00;23;19;01 – 00;23;41;07

Dr. Noc

But if they tick off, like four boxes of suspicion, you can be like, well, maybe, this is should look into this further. But a good example is, Doctor Peter McCullough, like one of the major spreaders of disinformation about Covid vaccines recently testified before Congress. He talks about how the Covid vaccines are causing more deaths and they’re saving or whatever, which is not true.

 

00;23;41;09 – 00;23;56;06

Dr. Noc

And it’s because when you get a Covid vaccine, your body makes the spike protein from coronavirus. And they thought it would go away within a week, but it’s actually sticking around for years and it’s causing massive inflammation to your body. But good news for you I sell a supplement for $90 a month.

 

00;23;56;09 – 00;23;58;25

Dr. Mona

Oh dear sir, you.

 

00;23;58;27 – 00;24;16;23

Dr. Noc

Know, now this is this is real. It’s like a detox program that he sells 90 bucks a month. You take it and it’ll detoxify your body from the spike protein. And you can be cured of whether you had the Covid vaccine or Covid infection conveniently, which is everyone? You need to take the supplement to take control of your health.

 

00;24;16;26 – 00;24;34;04

Dr. Noc

So that type of thing very clear. Like when you stand to potentially make hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars at the scale that he’s doing it, there’s good reason to suspect that he may be either sort of misleading himself. Like, you may truly believe what he’s saying, which I think is the case for most people.

 

00;24;34;04 – 00;24;54;29

Dr. Noc

I think most people do truly believe the things that they’re saying, even when they’re misguided. But it’s easier to believe the things that you’re saying when the things that you’re saying could make you $100,000 a month. Yeah. So, you know, look for financial conflicts of interest. Similarly, a lot of people online will tell you, these are the three symptoms of potassium deficiency or something.

 

00;24;55;04 – 00;25;12;09

Dr. Noc

And then they’ll say, and go buy my potassium supplement. But I’m telling you. And of course, like deficiencies in certain nutrients are real and can happen, but they’re nowhere near as pervasive as this type of like they’ll say, like, do you feel tired? Yeah. Do you not have as much energy as you had ten years ago or something?

 

00;25;12;09 – 00;25;32;19

Dr. Noc

Which obviously is not a good way to narrow down who should take a specific supplement? But they sell it very convincingly. And so people think, why not try it for 30 or 40 bucks a month? And supplements is maybe a bad example because the stakes aren’t very high. But this is the mechanism by which people raise doubt in your mind.

 

00;25;32;19 – 00;25;34;06

Dr. Noc

Yeah. And then sell you a solution.

 

00;25;34;14 – 00;26;00;08

Dr. Mona

And, you know, that’s a great example of sometimes people don’t know what’s what. They don’t know. Right? So an example is Doctor Ayman. Doctor Ayman is a I believe I can’t remember what his training is, but he sells a lot of supplements and he has his own podcast. And my husband actually used to love his podcast. And then I actually did a video calling Doctor Ayman out about how he how he phrases autism as something that’s curable and how some vaccines, you know, don’t help autism.

 

00;26;00;08 – 00;26;19;00

Dr. Mona

And I’m like, that’s not true. But let’s go into this. And if you actually go on his website and even in his podcast, he’ll talk about ADHD, he’ll talk about focus, and then he’ll pitch this fear, you know, fear mongering thing. Right? Like, did you know that food dyes or does it. And it’s so hard. And I’ve seen the brain scans.

 

00;26;19;00 – 00;26;38;12

Dr. Mona

And here is my $40 focus and energy supplement. Right. And it’s this pattern, like you mentioned, of this sort of here’s the fear, which is what McCullough did too, right. Like oh my gosh mRNAs doing this. Oh my gosh, I hear you. I’m as expert at it. And here’s what I’ve created just for you. And it’s such a special thing for you.

 

00;26;38;12 – 00;26;56;09

Dr. Mona

And I I’m able to call it out. And it’s so interesting because my husband, he when I, he saw my video and he watches my content, God bless him. And he was like, then he listened to the another episode. He’s like Mona, you’re so right. He’s like, I didn’t even notice that he was weaving these supplements in. And I’m like, really?

 

00;26;56;09 – 00;27;16;10

Dr. Mona

And he said, my husband’s a very smart guy. He’s like, yeah, because I’m kind of just listening to the education and the content. And then he kept pushing the supplement and I noticed it. And so I think it’s really important again, like as a consumer to get very curious. And I, I love that you provide nuance, the sexy word of the day in that not everyone selling stuff is bad, right.

 

00;27;16;10 – 00;27;35;11

Dr. Mona

Like, I, I sell courses, I sell things to, I do brand partnerships. I know that my fellow pediatricians do it, but I’m not giving you a problem and telling you that I’m the my my paid solution is the only way that you’re going to survive or that you’re going to get rid of that issue. Right? Mine is not the only solution.

 

00;27;35;11 – 00;28;00;15

Dr. Mona

There are many solutions out there to how you want to parent your kids. But I’m not selling these supplements that are framed as the end all, be all. And that’s kind of that sort of misinformation. And the pediatricians out there right now are doing that, right. Like, hey, vaccines and SIDs or, you know, this causes this, but I have created this book about detox or I have this supplement, like a drop that you can give your kid that’s going to really help them.

 

00;28;00;15 – 00;28;18;20

Dr. Mona

And that’s what they’re doing on these shows. And it’s so obvious to me. And then I see everyone in the comment section comment like the many chat. Com you know the, the I like hey vaccine guide this then I’m like no like all the people who I feel fell for it, if that makes sense. Like that. Sort of like.

 

00;28;18;28 – 00;28;42;06

Dr. Mona

No. Like you got to see through them. You got to have that critical thinking skill of like, this doesn’t make sense. Or there must be an alternative motive here as to why they would pitch the sphere. I’m. I’m on your team. Let me tell you something. Now, let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

 

00;28;42;09 – 00;29;06;00

Dr. Noc

Yeah, and it’s so it’s so challenging to do because at the same time, if they’re saying and Big Pharma doesn’t like, knows about this, but doesn’t want you to know about it, because then they could sell you XYZ treatments that they would otherwise sell you for the markup. So that’s the reason that this information is being suppressed. There’s always this element of suppression, like they don’t want you to know about this.

 

00;29;06;02 – 00;29;31;21

Dr. Noc

And so I’m here to I’m the only one here to help you because I’m willing to put my career at risk. And, you know, whatever legal fees may come my way, I’m doing it for you, the listeners, something. So it feels almost like they’re really putting themselves out there for you to fight against this big shadowy organization conglomerate, which for anyone who has worked in or adjacent to pharmaceutical like the pharmaceutical industry, knows that none of that is true.

 

00;29;31;22 – 00;29;54;13

Dr. Noc

That type of suppression and hiding of cures and stuff simply couldn’t happen. But I can see why you would think it would happen. There’s a lot that’s wrong with the pharmaceutical industry and, you know, the profit seeking motives that they have and the ways that they, you know, do acquisitions. And, it is true that there is some research that they won’t necessarily fund if there’s not a very big market size.

 

00;29;54;15 – 00;30;27;01

Dr. Noc

That doesn’t mean that they’re suppressing that information. But like if they if there’s a condition that affects one in, you know, 20 million people, probably they’re not going to best very much money into doing research towards that condition. There are programs. It’s getting a little off tangent, but like there are programs for orphan indications. Orphan is what it’s called when there’s a condition that affects a small number of people meant to counteract that market force where like, we think that pharmaceutical industries wouldn’t be financially motivated enough to pursue a cure or treatment for this condition.

 

00;30;27;03 – 00;30;49;28

Dr. Noc

That’s an orphan indication. We’re going to give you money to go do it anyway, basically. So that happens to, the reason I bring that up is like people, believe it or not, have thought through these problems of the pharmaceutical industry and tried to come up with workarounds to make it so that there is equitable research into conditions that affect everyone, not just heart disease and cancer, but, you know, even the less common stuff, too.

 

00;30;50;00 – 00;31;06;06

Dr. Noc

And there are legions and legions of very good, very normal people who work in pharmaceutical science and research who if there was a cure for cancer or something, you know, the hundreds of thousands of people in the field wouldn’t collectively come together to cover it up.

 

00;31;06;09 – 00;31;23;29

Dr. Mona

Well, this is a very healthy tangent, and not only because I think it’s very useful for people to hear that, but also because it’s it’s an area that you are in in terms of learning about pharmaceuticals. And things like that. So, when we first started talking, he was like, yeah, I’m not a pharmacist. I just learn about pharmaceuticals and pharmacy, which I think is so, so important.

 

00;31;23;29 – 00;31;41;29

Dr. Mona

So thank you for the very important tangent. I didn’t feel like it was it was very useful. And I think like one of the big things is, you know, you mentioned already like being more personable, adding humor, and the reality is the ones that are going viral that are, you know, the fear mongering aren’t doing that.

 

00;31;41;29 – 00;31;58;21

Dr. Mona

It’s literally like these outlandish sort of, statements of like, you know, this causes this. Did it add, are there any other ways we can combat that besides the humor, besides being personable and things that you would have for a message for fellow science communicators and also maybe for consumers as well?

 

00;31;58;24 – 00;32;16;18

Dr. Noc

It’s a great question. I’d love to hear what you do, too. When you’re thinking about a topic that you think might be dry and you’re thinking like, how do I present this to spice it up? One thing first, though, to what you said is misinformation. Content does go more viral like people have studied. The particular study I’m aware of was conducted on Twitter.

 

00;32;16;21 – 00;32;41;13

Dr. Noc

Yeah, comparing to information versus misinformation. Misinformation literally spread six times faster and was 70% more likely to be shared compared to real information because inherently like put your share it to your sibling or your friend or whatever it might be and say like, do you think this is true? Or, you know, whatever it might be when it sparks that emotional, particularly a negative emotional reaction, it’s kind of like driving past a car.

 

00;32;41;14 – 00;33;00;27

Dr. Noc

Like, you know, you shouldn’t look at a car crash and like, you’re annoyed that everyone is looking at the car crash while you’re waiting behind them. But then when you get there, you’re probably looking at the car crash or yeah, pointing at it, even though you know you shouldn’t negatively charge emotional content as much. The same way people have done studies asking people, what type of content do you want to see in your feed when you scroll?

 

00;33;00;29 – 00;33;17;08

Dr. Noc

And almost uniformly, people will say, I don’t want to see negative emotions. That would make me make content, that would make me feel angry or upset or something. But then in practice, when those people in the study were scrolling and they came across those types of content, they watched it more than they watched all the rest of the content.

 

00;33;17;11 – 00;33;38;04

Dr. Noc

And so there’s this disconnect between intellectually, what we know we should probably stay away from online. And then in practice, what ends up happening. And I think there’s some hard wiring like emotional hard wiring there at play. But of course, then what you end up watching to completion and sharing, even if you don’t like it or whatever, that influences your algorithm and what you’re going to see tomorrow in the day after that.

 

00;33;38;07 – 00;34;06;08

Dr. Noc

And so unfortunately, it is incredibly, much more likely for misinformation to go viral, particularly because it elicits these potential fears, and negative emotions. And so when people make content, people have studied, they do like hashtag based studies on TikTok or Instagram. They’ll look up hashtag IOD or something, or hashtag nutrition or hashtag Health, and they look at the top 100 pieces of content and say, of these top 100 pieces of content, how many of them were made by an actual subject matter expert?

 

00;34;06;10 – 00;34;26;22

Dr. Noc

How many of them made scientific claims that were accurate versus inaccurate? And what you see, like the IOD example, was something like 1 in 4 videos had something that was very misleading, like scientifically misleading, not represented by the underlying data, which sounds bad enough. What’s worse is that you realize that those particular videos performed better than all the rest of the videos.

 

00;34;26;24 – 00;34;46;17

Dr. Noc

Yeah. So if you just count the numbers one and four have misinformation, but those one and four go much more viral. So as a user, you end up with, I don’t know what the ratio is. Probably no better than one and two odds of a piece of content you’re seeing about IUDs online or health or nutrition or whatever it might be, probably being less rather than more evidence based.

 

00;34;46;24 – 00;34;48;18

Dr. Noc

And I don’t know how to escape that.

 

00;34;48;21 – 00;35;15;28

Dr. Mona

I’ve seen the same thing. And I noticed that when I started doing stitches. So responding because people like my facial expressions and I think it’s just me, like my eye rolls or my, like, what, you know, frustrated looks like that I tend to do in life. To the, to that sort of fear comment. Right. So whether it’s a green screen or whether it’s like that’s coming first and then I put the period or response in coming, I have found that that is my way to play the algorithm.

 

00;35;16;01 – 00;35;31;12

Dr. Mona

But give the real info. I use the example like I had just done a video on dry drowning. Dry drowning is, a not a real medical term, but it’s thrown around so much in the summertime. So there was a mom or grandma talking about drought or like just a B-roll video. And I was like, let’s take this.

 

00;35;31;12 – 00;35;47;16

Dr. Mona

And just after that, I’m going to do mine. It’s doing very well. Now, if I sat down and just did a video on Dry Drowning and starting it with like, are you worried about dry drowning? It won’t work. And I tried doing that for many years like I had found. And it’s it’s a sad reality that I have to stitch.

 

00;35;47;16 – 00;36;10;14

Dr. Mona

And I say that because sometimes I feel it’s not fully my content because I have to use someone else’s video. But I just knew that in order to get this right, information out there, which is legit, like, I’m not giving misinformation. I have to get creative with how I’m going to play the algorithm. Right. And it’s so for that first 10s maybe someone’s getting that emotional charge of like, oh my God, dry drowning is going to kill me.

 

00;36;10;19 – 00;36;26;23

Dr. Mona

And then it’s like, hey, I’m Doctor Monet. If you want the real truth, follow me. Da da. And then I go into my spiel and then by the end, everyone’s like, oh my God, thank you so much. And now I given them that that healthy dopamine hit of reassurance and like, comfort. And so to answer your question, that’s how I’ve done it.

 

00;36;26;23 – 00;36;48;11

Dr. Mona

It’s worked really well for my page. But I only discovered it in 2024 like before. Then I was doing camera videos, trying to get, you know, my like. And it’s so interesting because I could say the exact same thing to camera from the beginning and people are swiping away, but the moment it’s stitched after another video viral and I, my team was like, what’s going on?

 

00;36;48;11 – 00;37;12;13

Dr. Mona

I’m like, maybe people don’t want to see my face right away. I like it’s like it’s but it’s the same. Like, I, I beta tested, we put the same script like that. I would write right, because I write this all up, and then I would put it just speaking to camera myself. And then we’ve done it after a video, the same script and the same wordage, and it was coming out with like the one after a stitch video was going more viral and it’s like, and then I have to, I have to play it.

 

00;37;12;13 – 00;37;31;01

Dr. Mona

And I, you know, I’m very transparent about that. People are always like, why? Maybe why is she doing so many stitches? But it’s because it’s what works to get people in the door of like listening to what I have to say. And I, I love them. It’s actually very fun to to be able to be like, no, like, let’s talk about this, you know, or hey, that’s true.

 

00;37;31;02 – 00;37;49;14

Dr. Mona

Let’s talk about the truth because I don’t always I don’t always Pooh Pooh everything. Right. Some things I’m like, hey, RFK Jr is kind of right that, you know, we need to do more about this, or maybe we need to revisit this or something like that. And I think that sort of nuance also makes people trust you more when you’re, like, not bashing someone every single day.

 

00;37;49;19 – 00;38;15;24

Dr. Mona

Like I give the example like, I, I’m very transparent that I’m a voting Democrat and I am very you know, I didn’t I wasn’t a fan of the administration. And I also have told my followers that if the administration does something that I agree with, I will also call that out. And I noticed that my followers really love that, because even if they’re Democrat, independent, whatever, they have found that I am neutral in the fact that I’m not going to just say everything they do is bad.

 

00;38;15;27 – 00;38;38;10

Dr. Mona

I give the example of like RFK Jr. He recently, went on and talked about how they’re going to reevaluate the whole prior authorization procedure. Yes. And I was like, Please God, yes. And I said on my stories, I’m like, this is fantastic. And I think it’s important for us to not like when there is something good. That said, we can still take and not forget the negative.

 

00;38;38;10 – 00;39;03;01

Dr. Mona

Like I’m not forgetting the things that he said. That is not okay. But we have to also understand that there is a good and I. I do that because I believe it, but also it shows my, my community that like, hey, doctor Mona is going to tell me when things are legit, and she’s also going to tell me when things are BS and she is going to be as neutral as she can be with her political leanings and understand that this is about health, right?

 

00;39;03;01 – 00;39;22;09

Dr. Mona

And I am really intrigued with what’s going to happen with the prior authorization procedure. And if it’s actually going to change for the better. But that’s just one example of like, not always loving everything a person says, but being able to find maybe one thing that I can say, hey, look, this is actually pretty cool. And like, if this can work, I would be the first to admit that this is awesome and let’s do it.

 

00;39;22;09 – 00;39;38;06

Dr. Mona

You know? And that, I think, is like another way that I get people in the trust zone. And that’s not fake. That is how I feel about things. Right? Like, I feel that we should look at the whole totality of a person and definitely hold them accountable to the bad things that they may say regarding public health.

 

00;39;38;13 – 00;39;43;16

Dr. Mona

But let’s also see if they’re doing anything to be progressive towards a good solution for people’s health as well.

 

00;39;43;19 – 00;39;54;25

Dr. Noc

Yeah, I think that’s a critically amazing approach, especially because people can tell, like if you were trying to figure it to people you know, instantly. Like Rb’s detectors are so good and even better.

 

00;39;54;28 – 00;40;11;24

Dr. Mona

Yeah, I think people’s B.S. detector have gotten so much better. Like, I, I feel it as like even like if I I’m going to give an example, even if I’m doing like, a video that I’m not excited about. Like sometimes I do content because people ask me to do it, but I’m not excited about it. It doesn’t do well.

 

00;40;12;00 – 00;40;31;29

Dr. Mona

And I’m like, I think people can just sense my excitement or my my like persona of like, this is something Doctor Mona really wants to talk about because my animations come out, I feel more like into it. And so you’re right on. Like, I think it’s so vital as a communicator to bring the personality, bring the honesty, bring the transparency.

 

00;40;32;02 – 00;40;49;04

Dr. Mona

Because it really does help get get more people this information in a healthy way without falling prey to like, without falling prey to misinformation and the negative things, but also having to understand it. We have to work with algorithms like if I need to get content out there, I kind of a nature to camera, but that wasn’t working.

 

00;40;49;04 – 00;40;58;24

Dr. Mona

So I got to go and do things that makes sense for my followers. And if they need a stitched video of me responding to RFK Jr, then that’s what I got to do, because that’s what works on my page.

 

00;40;58;26 – 00;41;26;13

Dr. Noc

And at the end of the day, people, I mean, most people open Instagram or TikTok or whatever, not to browse isn’t about dry drowning or vaccines. It’s to be entertained for five minutes in between doing stuff and so like it makes sense. It’s almost like the platform dictates the types of messaging that you have to do. And there’s really interesting example, like there’s whole books written about this, about the evolution of media from pre telegraph to post telegraph.

 

00;41;26;15 – 00;41;42;19

Dr. Noc

When it was used to be like if you think pre telegraph, the only way you could get news was somebody getting on a horse and like riding to your town or whatever. And so it didn’t happen instantly. And so as a result all the news that you got most of the news you got was local. And if it was from somewhere else, that was particularly important.

 

00;41;42;21 – 00;42;10;05

Dr. Noc

And so everything felt very actionable because it was like you know, the bridge got completed or this happened to this person that I know in my community. What happened, though instantly when the Telegraph came out was, now you have access everywhere. Now, you know, you know, Chicago was on fire. And so like these really entertaining and like those types of stories start to capture people’s attention better than, like the local stuff, because probably nothing very exciting happened yesterday in this town compared to the entire world.

 

00;42;10;07 – 00;42;43;14

Dr. Noc

And so ever since then, like the Telegraph was a big shift, but then to radio and then to print and then, print is not the right word there. Radio and then television and then social media every step along that way, after the Telegraph has just exacerbated that shift toward like, globalized entertainment. We’re now. Yeah, you’re competing when you make content with the entire world of entertainment content, you know, Mr. Beast and, yeah, cat videos and dancing videos and like comedians, everything is in direct competition with our content for attention.

 

00;42;43;16 – 00;42;48;22

Dr. Noc

And so you got to do what you, what you have to do in order to compete on that global scale.

 

00;42;48;25 – 00;43;05;04

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And I think it’s it’s so fair to say that you got to do what you got to do, but there’s a way to still do it with maintaining the integrity. Right. Like I think speaking to the communicators that are probably listening to this conversation, that it is about knowing what works. And just as long as you’re sticking to the to what you know to be true, the facts.

 

00;43;05;07 – 00;43;21;13

Dr. Mona

And I love also taking it back to what you said about data, right? Like I do bring up data, but I also talk about limitations of data and using example of like sleep training studies. Right? I’m pro sleep training, but I’m also the first to admit that even the pro sleep training studies, small sample sizes, things like that.

 

00;43;21;13 – 00;43;42;14

Dr. Mona

Could we ever create a perfect sleep training study? And I and I’m able to do that more on longer form video, like on YouTube because you have more time. But that is so important and I love that you are also someone that believes that nuance is possible, that we can continue to do this information, in a fun way, understanding that we have to work and compete with the the comedians.

 

00;43;42;15 – 00;44;07;26

Dr. Mona

Right? And I love it too. Like, I follow a lot of comedians on social that have nothing to do with my niche, but I follow them to learn how to create. And I am funny. Also, like, I tend to be very funny, but I struggle with how to make that translate into content sometimes. And so I’m watching them for inspiration, like so maybe something will come to me one day that I’m like, here’s what I can do to bring back the humor piece in, like how I create skits or stuff like that.

 

00;44;07;29 – 00;44;22;16

Dr. Mona

And maybe it’s my SSRI that’s making me not funny anymore. I have no idea about like, but like, but no, like I joke with my husband. I’m like, man, like, I need to bring that back. Like I need to bring that that humor that I, I’ve always had. And he knows me to be funny, but like, bring it back online, you know?

 

00;44;22;18 – 00;44;23;26

Dr. Mona

And so you’ve inspired me.

 

00;44;24;01 – 00;44;25;15

Dr. Noc

To lose that playfulness.

 

00;44;25;17 – 00;44;47;08

Dr. Mona

It is. And I have it with my kid. Like, it’s like it’s just when you’re online. I’m like, yeah. And so it’s an inspiration watching other creators and like yourself or even like the comedians of social media and like how they do their skits. And I’m like, oh, I love skit writing. Like, maybe I should just start doing my skits again that I used to do in the pandemic when humor was a huge a huge outlet for me for stress.

 

00;44;47;15 – 00;44;54;23

Dr. Mona

And I was under a lot of stress at that time. And so now I’m like, I have less stress on, like, where’s my humor? Like, come back, I.

 

00;44;54;25 – 00;45;06;10

Dr. Noc

Used should do it. Yeah. I’m curious. And so all of these like the way that you’ve shifted communication based on social media, has that impacted how you speak to people, like at your practice locations in Dallas?

 

00;45;06;14 – 00;45;23;22

Dr. Mona

Yes, and it’s been so for the better. I mean, not only has, you know, I’ve actually now been practicing ten years and I’ve been on social for five and I’ve been a mom for five, right? So half of my career was Pre-social private mom. And then the second, because I created my social media account like the year I had my son.

 

00;45;23;24 – 00;45;47;28

Dr. Mona

So now I can’t tell if it’s because of my mom or because I have the social media presence. But both of those things have positively impacted how I show up, right? I’m I’m a better listener. I, you know, whenever someone has a concern, I’m very curious. I’ve gotten this, like super sense of curiosity. And when people when I feel like people aren’t liking what I’m saying in the office, rather than saying, okay, have a great day, I’m like, I don’t.

 

00;45;47;28 – 00;46;06;05

Dr. Mona

I call them out. I’m like, I don’t think you like what I’m saying right now. What is it that you’re not happy with? And it’s just a clear communication of like, I feel like something’s wrong with my kid, or I just feel like I need to, and I’m like, let’s talk about it then. And I just become better at listening, at reading people at, like, getting this information out in a balanced way.

 

00;46;06;09 – 00;46;28;22

Dr. Mona

Because I admit I used to live in black and whites as well, that you must. This is it safe. And I have had more ability to get people to vaccinate, to help people understand all the things that we’re trying to do. Because I approach it from nuance and I believe that’s possible online. In person, it’s much easier because they see you, they feel you, they feel the energy.

 

00;46;28;24 – 00;46;29;17

Dr. Mona

But like I said.

 

00;46;29;21 – 00;46;30;07

Dr. Noc

It is right there.

 

00;46;30;07 – 00;46;48;24

Dr. Mona

Yeah, but I think like you said, you can bring that online with that sort of what you just mentioned about I’m a human being and that I feel for you. And it’s those authentic posts that I entered that I put in between all my educational posts, like, I’m very I want to put those in because I like sharing the authenticity of mommy pediatrician Mona.

 

00;46;48;26 – 00;47;05;08

Dr. Mona

But those really bring people in and they I get those messages of like, wow, like, I went through this too. It means so much that you as a pediatrician said that I’m like, I’m human. Guys. Like, don’t ever forget that. I think you guys forget it. And then I have to remind you with a vulnerable post, but please don’t forget that I’m a I’m a human being.

 

00;47;05;14 – 00;47;22;22

Dr. Mona

I’m a mom, too. And I have had the same struggles you have. I just know a little more science and health than you do. You know? Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

 

00;47;22;24 – 00;47;34;05

Dr. Mona

If you had a magic wand, like in terms of like the next five years, I know I is part of this, but what would good science communication look like online for you? And what’s one thing we can each do to help us get there?

 

00;47;34;08 – 00;48;02;13

Dr. Noc

Oh, I think it’s very related to what you just said. I think that we would benefit the most from having many more people making content online, particularly people trained in medicine, trained in science. Right now, I think people are kind of afraid to make content. Yeah. But in order for people to feel like they’re resonating, like there’s a lot of people who just won’t feel like they click with me online just because of personality or, you know, whatever it might be.

 

00;48;02;16 – 00;48;24;20

Dr. Noc

We need vastly more diversity of people making evidence based health and science content so that everyone, when they’re watching can find someone that they kind of click with. Yeah, for whatever reason, it might be. So I think it would start by incorporating more of the public communication, like on socials element, into medical and scientific training. Right now, there’s none in scientific training.

 

00;48;24;20 – 00;48;44;22

Dr. Noc

I don’t know what it’s like in medical training now. A few years ago it was also done. But I think because people are spending so much time online, Pew Research does polls every year, every few years, over 50% of people are on social media. At least one of the reasons why is to get news. And that fraction is greater among younger people.

 

00;48;44;24 – 00;49;24;10

Dr. Noc

So increasingly, people are getting their information from social media to follow specific accounts for political news, for health news, for, you know, all aspects of news. As people are decreasing, time spent reading newspapers or watching cable news, correspondingly, people are getting more and more information from social media. Yeah. And so I think we need to be proactive in shifting sort of the medical and public health field’s attention away from publishing op eds, you know, in newspapers or, you know, journal publications and spend quite a lot more time doing authentic communication on social media, because, like you were saying before, already people who are peddling misinformation are way ahead of us in doing that.

 

00;49;24;10 – 00;49;48;06

Dr. Noc

Yeah, they’re making the rounds on podcasts, making the rounds on short form video content. And, you know, vaccinologist and clinical trial lists are not showing up on the Joe Rogan podcast or, you know, pretty much broadly on social media. Yeah. And so this is a people, I think, who want to see longer form content. There’s a reason why I think this is a good time to be making podcasts.

 

00;49;48;08 – 00;50;02;27

Dr. Noc

People feel like these types of longer form discussions are where you can really get to know someone like that. I think that’s a big reason why Joe Rogan has had such a big influence, particularly in politics, in the past few years. Turns out people are willing to sit down and listen for 2.5 hours.

 

00;50;03;04 – 00;50;21;17

Dr. Mona

It’s wonderful. How long exactly? I mean, he has long episodes and like you said, he’s created this sort of we have to look at the people. Even if we don’t like them. We got to look at what they’re doing and seeing exactly like, I love that you do that. Like what we can do as communicators and why we shouldn’t shy away and you asked about like how it is in the medical field.

 

00;50;21;17 – 00;50;42;24

Dr. Mona

I actually help my practice with training and getting people on board to communicate online, and it is like pulling teeth, like trying to get someone online. And here are the fears that I hear. One is I don’t feel like I have the time, which I respect, that we are so burnt out like I it is hard. I got on because I was burnt out and I felt like I needed an outlet.

 

00;50;42;24 – 00;50;56;17

Dr. Mona

But so many people, they don’t feel that way, right? They’re just burnt out and they can’t think of this as something they want to add to their life. And then they set up and it takes time. I’m not going to deny that. So yeah, the burnout number two is that they’re so shy and that they don’t want to get in front of a camera.

 

00;50;56;23 – 00;51;11;29

Dr. Mona

And I’m like, you don’t. You’re not really talking to anyone except yourself if you think about it. Right. Like meaning it’s not like a live stage. Like you could be an introvert and have a good online presence. And then the third is that, well, what if it doesn’t grow like the metric focus? And I say, I get that I have not.

 

00;51;11;29 – 00;51;29;24

Dr. Mona

I didn’t grow for a very long time. I have stayed stagnant. And if you keep looking at the metric, of course it’s going to be failure. But if you believe that this value is important, it’s really healthy. And the last thing that you said that was so key is that the meshing, right, like I am some people’s cup of tea and I’m not other people’s cup of tea.

 

00;51;29;24 – 00;51;47;02

Dr. Mona

And that is also really valuable to have for consumers like some people love me but may not like may not like you or vice versa. Right? Like it’s just me. Maybe they don’t like the way I talk or the way I use my hands, or how I relate to them, and that is not personal. That is just personal preference.

 

00;51;47;02 – 00;52;05;10

Dr. Mona

Right? And, the more people we get on, the more personalities will meet, right? Like maybe they’ll meet another doctor that’s like, hey, like, this doctor really gets me. And I think it’s people feel like the field is so saturated online, but I’m like, there are billions of people in the world. You’re never there’s always going to be people around.

 

00;52;05;10 – 00;52;24;28

Dr. Mona

And it’s a matter of like, staying true to what you believe is is good content and like figuring out again, yeah, what works, what doesn’t work. Pivoting every few months, doing an audit to see what kind of content is really hitting if you want to keep doing it. But like it was for a very long time truly. And is still is, it’s about the value you’re giving to your your your followers.

 

00;52;24;28 – 00;52;31;19

Dr. Mona

Right. The one DM I get that you change my life. I’m now not scared to go to the pool. Thanks to you. I’m like.

 

00;52;31;25 – 00;52;33;23

Dr. Noc

That’s more valuable than 10,000 views.

 

00;52;33;25 – 00;52;50;24

Dr. Mona

Exactly. And I have to remember that too. For anyone consuming this and listening like I don’t want to start on social. Like I almost have a million followers on Instagram at the time of this recording, and I still deal with the lesser than how come I don’t have this, that, or the other. But I always go back to the people, right?

 

00;52;50;24 – 00;53;08;06

Dr. Mona

Like I just impacted a person’s life. I just saved someone. A copay like, these are people’s life that are probably talking about you at home in a positive way. Like, hey, did you see what Doctor Knox said? Did you see what Doctor Mona said? Like, let’s go look at what Doctor Knox said. Like, that is invaluable to this world.

 

00;53;08;06 – 00;53;18;22

Dr. Mona

And so, yeah, I agree with you that I think people should get on. That’s the only way we’re going to combat it is with like filling the space with more evidence and more balanced information that the world needs.

 

00;53;18;24 – 00;53;26;03

Dr. Noc

Yeah. And like you said, there’s definitely room like like if my account word evaporated overnight, I would start again tomorrow from zero, from scratch. No one would.

 

00;53;26;04 – 00;53;42;15

Dr. Mona

Build. Yeah. And me would and yes, it would take time. But it’s like you would still. Yeah. There’s always going to be people who want your voice and I wish I know I have a feeling a lot of mix of people are listening to this. So if anyone’s like on that verge, like I want to start something, start on a platform that you really love.

 

00;53;42;15 – 00;53;53;14

Dr. Mona

Like maybe you really love TikTok. Maybe you really love Instagram as a just a consumer start where you feel like you want to be and go for it. And yeah, I think I am happy that we could chat about this.

 

00;53;53;17 – 00;54;14;08

Dr. Noc

And, you know, long term commitment. Like when I started making content, I had no plans beyond that piece of content. Yeah. You don’t have to say, like, I’m going to do this for a year. Just start practicing and, you know, it’s going to take you probably hundreds of videos before you make a good video. But that’s just you have to assume that’s part of the process is it’s a learning thing the whole way through.

 

00;54;14;10 – 00;54;33;25

Dr. Mona

And I can say that I had been on YouTube for four years now, four years, and I’m finally reaching 100,000 subscribers. Like very close. I mean, I know and some people just start posting and they grow overnight for years. And I say this because people can look at your accounts and think, wow, look at them like so much engagement.

 

00;54;33;25 – 00;54;51;25

Dr. Mona

But do remember that a lot of this takes many videos. Many times it’s not like an overnight thing. So you’re not alone when you start creating videos and you’re like, why am I not growing? Like you got to look at the why. You got to look at what are you adding value to this world? And even if ten people see it, imagine those ten people in a room with you.

 

00;54;51;26 – 00;55;06;06

Dr. Mona

That’s a lot of people staring at a lot of people like, yeah, so I love this. This is such a great conversation. I already mentioned your handle at doctor Knock knock. Correct. And is there anywhere else that people can find you? I don’t think you have a website. Am I wrong?

 

00;55;06;09 – 00;55;08;08

Dr. Noc

I don’t have a website. I have a Substack.

 

00;55;08;11 – 00;55;10;16

Dr. Mona

Substack? Oh, yes. Like that. Yeah. Yeah.

 

00;55;10;19 – 00;55;18;05

Dr. Noc

Which is this doctor doc.substack.com. Perfect. And then just doctor knock on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, Facebook and so on.

 

00;55;18;07 – 00;55;24;12

Dr. Mona

Awesome. And you already had some really great pearls. What would be your final uplifting message to take this all home today?

 

00;55;24;14 – 00;55;47;24

Dr. Noc

Oh, that’s a great question. So in the history of mankind, I suspect there have been many moments where it felt like the world was ending. And it hasn’t yet. And so I think it’s still is not going to now or in the next 2 or 3 years or whatever timeframe. So I try to be aware of the bias for negativity.

 

00;55;47;26 – 00;56;05;24

Dr. Noc

Yeah. When I’m personally consuming media, sometimes it helps to say like, the reason I’m seeing this is because, you know, negative emotion is more likely to go viral. That doesn’t mean that positive things aren’t happening. There’s this filter of things that end up reaching us, and sometimes it helps to step back and say like, oh, maybe things aren’t as bad as they appear.

 

00;56;05;26 – 00;56;16;25

Dr. Noc

Sometimes they are. Yeah, obviously there is bad stuff that happens, but it’s not always as bad as it feels. And these things are cyclical. So that’s what I personally do or tell myself.

 

00;56;16;28 – 00;56;37;06

Dr. Mona

Well, did I, did we all just get a therapy session right now? I mean what is going on? I love that I really appreciate that because you again, you’re speaking at a time where a lot of my followers and I’m sure yours as well, but I have a lot of parents that follow me that feel very helpless, that feel like not only with, political stuff, but, you know, health, public health, news stories about tragedies.

 

00;56;37;06 – 00;56;56;08

Dr. Mona

I mean, it always feels all consuming. And I say the same thing, like whenever I’m feeling the stress, I always put on my stories. Like the star breathing reminder for my followers. Like, it’s not. It’s not a reminder to just breathe alone. It’s a reminder to take pause. Like take pause. Focus on what is joyful for you. And that is why we can continue doing this right.

 

00;56;56;08 – 00;57;11;15

Dr. Mona

I didn’t even ask you that question. But like, I’m assuming that you’re able to get on even with the trolls, even with all of the negativity out there, because you focus on the good like you focus on the good that you do and that there is good in this world. And it’s not all negative, negative, negative all the time.

 

00;57;11;17 – 00;57;15;17

Dr. Noc

Yeah, that’s exactly right. Otherwise I think I would burn out in a week and.

 

00;57;15;17 – 00;57;39;23

Dr. Mona

I and I and I think that happened a lot in the pandemic and why I shifted my energy. And I used to fall prey to the negativity. And I, I love what you mentioned about what you’re consuming, even as a creator who I’m following and other creators. Right. Like if I’m following a science communicator that I’m finding is now getting very negative and every post is negative, like, and you can sense that energy, I’ll either mute them or I’ll unfollow.

 

00;57;39;23 – 00;57;58;29

Dr. Mona

Usually I’m muting them just because I’m like, you know what, I need to protect my peace right now. And like, I’m not it’s not adding any value to hear you so angry all the time. And so let’s just protect the peace. Maybe I’ll feel better later, but it’s okay to do that. And totally again, you can get healthy information by being outreach for advocacy, but also happy sometimes.

 

00;57;58;29 – 00;58;14;22

Dr. Mona

Like, not all of it has to be bad. Doctor knock I love this. You know, your final message could have been its whole episode itself. So what a what a way to end the show. Thank you so much for joining me. It was like an honor to talk with you and just to share that again, that energy for creation online.

 

00;58;14;24 – 00;58;16;16

Dr. Mona

So I really appreciate your time today.

 

00;58;16;18 – 00;58;20;06

Dr. Noc

I love the discussion. Thank you for the invitation. Happy to chat any time.

 

00;58;20;08 – 00;58;36;11

Dr. Mona

Yes, I will have to have you back on actual educational topics. I when me and Doctor Knock were figuring out what to talk about, I was like, I think I need you for this. Like, I think I want to talk to you about this just because of how you present information. But as you can imagine, Doctor Knock is not talking about this all the time on his social.

 

00;58;36;11 – 00;58;46;04

Dr. Mona

He’s actually creating really informative topics, so we will get into all of that in the future. He will be back. I have a feeling multiple times.

 

00;58;46;07 – 00;59;08;23

Dr. Mona

Have I told you lately how much I love my podcast? I want to sing it in that song. Have I told you lately that I love my podcast? Seriously, because I get to have these most amazing conversations and here’s what really stayed with me. We are powerful online. Every post we create, every video we share, every comment we amplified all contributes to what spreads and what sticks.

 

00;59;08;26 – 00;59;27;14

Dr. Mona

Misinformation moves quickly because it triggers emotion. But that does not mean truth cannot move to. It just means we have to be intentional about how we communicate it. I just love connecting with fellow science communicators who are trying to do this work responsibly, learning their style, their rhythm. What keeps them grounded when the noise gets loud helps me a lot.

 

00;59;27;17 – 00;59;48;12

Dr. Mona

If this episode made you think differently about the content you consume or create, please subscribe and download. Download, download download helps the show more than you know. Head over to PedsDocTalk and join the conversation on our latest post. Tag the PedsDocTalk podcast at doctor Dot Noc. And again, thank you for being here, for staying curious, for choosing evidence over fear.

 

00;59;48;14 – 01;00;01;04

Dr. Mona

It warms my heart so much that I can continue to do this and do it as a top 20 parenting podcast, and the only one from a woman of color and from a pediatrician. I’ll chat with you all next time. Stay well.