I welcome back Jessica Lahey to discuss her New York Times Bestselling Book, “The Gift of Failure: Learning to Let Go so our children can succeed.”

We discuss the following (and so much more):

• Why is society so fixated on points and scores rather than the actual process of learning?
• What is the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivators and why are they important?
• What is the difference between autonomy and independence?
• What other options do you have if you don’t bribe, nag, or impose punishment in order to get kids to do what we want them to do?

00;00;08;23 – 00;00;28;00

Dr. Mona

Welcome to this episode where I welcome Jessica Lahey, who is the author of the New York Times bestselling book The Gift of Failure How the Best Parents Learn to Let Go So Their Children Can Succeed. This is episode two of a two part episodes that we did today. The other episode was about her new book, The Addiction Inoculation.

 

00;00;28;00 – 00;00;42;23

Dr. Mona

So make sure you check that out, because that is her new book that is available this April. But we’re going to be talking about this book, which I am just so excited about, because I think it’s very important for our generation of parents and every parent to learn to let go a little bit for their children. Thanks for joining us, Jessica.

 

00;00;42;26 – 00;00;59;14

Jessica Lahey

Oh, you are so welcome. Isn’t it scary? The whole letting go thing. It’s super scary. And I have two of them. I have a 17 and a 22 year old. But the actually the 17 year old was nine when I started writing The Gift of Failure. And my 22 was, you know, 14. So yeah, it’s hard. It’s really hard to let go.

 

00;00;59;14 – 00;01;05;23

Jessica Lahey

And I still have a mantra that I sort of have to think about every single time I want to step in and, you know, do for them.

 

00;01;05;28 – 00;01;27;11

Dr. Mona

It’s hard. And, you know, I only have a 15 month old, so I am new to this game. Obviously, as a pediatrician, I see so much, just from the different types of families I work with and I see what works and doesn’t. And I think your book is so important because culturally and just societally, our generation and I speak about this, you know, millennial 1980s, 1990s, early 2000 that are eventually going to start having kids in the next ten years.

 

00;01;27;11 – 00;01;43;28

Dr. Mona

We are very wired to be perfectionists. You know, I think a lot of people are, but I see it a lot in my peers. We have a hard time letting go for things in our life. So when we have to now raise a child, we have to learn, let go of the things for ourself, but also let go of the things for our children so that they can succeed.

 

00;01;43;28 – 00;01;46;01

Dr. Mona

So this is going to be such an important conversation.

 

00;01;46;08 – 00;02;05;14

Jessica Lahey

Well, here’s the thing. If someone would just give me some really clear grades, maybe some short term job evaluations for how I’m doing as a parent, I could probably get over that, but I don’t have that. So, you know, I joke and gift of failure that at first at least I could look at those like growth charts and be like, woo hoo, 50th percentile while I’m doing so well.

 

00;02;05;14 – 00;02;23;12

Jessica Lahey

But at this point now, you know, I don’t know. And plus, the hard thing is, you know, I want a grade on my parenting so desperately, but that need to sort of constantly evaluate myself based on my children. Not only is it unfair to me because if they screw up, it’s not altogether my fault. It’s not something I didn’t do.

 

00;02;23;14 – 00;02;41;05

Jessica Lahey

But the other problem is, is that if they do something amazing, if they get into their dream college or they get their dream job, I didn’t get that job. That’s not me. That’s them. They’re their own people out there in the world. And there’s only so much, you know, we can control. And my mother likes to joke that, you know, I was a really easy baby.

 

00;02;41;05 – 00;03;00;13

Jessica Lahey

And so she was super smug, and she’s like, oh, man, I’m good at this parenting thing. And then my sister came along and she was not easy at all. And then she was like, oh, wait a second, maybe this isn’t all about me. Maybe this actually has to do with the fact that these are, you know, human individuals on their own, with their own brains and that kind of thing.

 

00;03;00;13 – 00;03;03;09

Jessica Lahey

So wouldn’t it be nice if we could just take credit for all of it, though?

 

00;03;03;12 – 00;03;24;22

Dr. Mona

Yes. And, you know, American society, you know, has trained children to value points, high scores and rewards over the process of learning. And this fixation on extrinsic rewards has resulted in an intense fear of failure and has destroyed many children’s love of that process. Right. Why do you think Heidi has become so fixated on points and scores rather than the process of learning?

 

00;03;24;22 – 00;03;25;09

Dr. Mona

Like you said.

 

00;03;25;15 – 00;03;43;11

Jessica Lahey

It’s easier to take a snapshot and you know, as someone who’s been a teacher for 20 years, I do a ton of education research about like what works and what doesn’t work for learning. The problem is, is that like assessments, you know, when we give kids a big test on everything they’ve learned in the past month, that is a horrible way for kids to learn.

 

00;03;43;11 – 00;03;59;26

Jessica Lahey

It just doesn’t work. It’s a horrible method for learning. What does work really, really well are sort of frequent forms of assessments, like as kids are learning, going through and sort of taking a temperature of what they do and don’t know and helping them build up what’s called their metacognition, helping them understand what they do and don’t know.

 

00;03;59;26 – 00;04;17;05

Jessica Lahey

So that sort of focus more on the process and less on the end product can not only be a much better tool for helping kids learn and become, it’s much better for helping them stay motivate. It also keeps the focus on the learning. So let’s say your kid really screws something up, doesn’t do well on a test, whatever.

 

00;04;17;05 – 00;04;38;01

Jessica Lahey

When you are talking to them about it, they’ll actually believe you when you say, sweetie, you know what? I’m here to support you. And what I really care about is the learning. And so having that be our constant focus that less on the end product and more on the process, you know, would be great. But you know, in terms of why we tend to do everything that way, you’d have to talk to like Dan Pinker, Edward DC and both of Edward DC.

 

00;04;38;01 – 00;05;02;19

Jessica Lahey

His book, Why We Do What We Do The Science of Self-motivation, and Dan Pink both talk about the fact that extrinsic motivators are terrible for motivation. They just do not work. You know? You are not going to be a better physician if you hear that, you’re going to get some bonus for being nicer to kids, and I’m not going to be a better teacher if I hear that, I’m going to get a bonus for making sure that all of my kids get B or better, it’s just not why I do what I do.

 

00;05;02;19 – 00;05;17;07

Jessica Lahey

I am intrinsically motivated to do my job because I’m invested and love my job. But unfortunately, that’s sort of how our system, our labor system in this country works. And so we tend to take those tools and apply them to children as well. And unfortunately, that’s a complete disaster.

 

00;05;17;14 – 00;05;33;28

Dr. Mona

Well, I really appreciate that example for physicians because I completely agree with that. You know, we’re oh, me, my husband, we’re just talking about that in general health. They are doing this more of this sort of bonus structure, which doesn’t bring the joy back. It doesn’t make you want to do the job when it’s a goal for like whether it’s money or stuff like that.

 

00;05;33;28 – 00;05;48;16

Dr. Mona

That’s not what we want in this for. It’s not helping you in the actual moments that you have with that patient. And that’s a great example I want to know. So for children, what is the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic. You kind of talked about that. But can you give me some more examples related to children.

 

00;05;48;19 – 00;06;06;19

Jessica Lahey

Yeah. So extrinsic motivators are anything the carrot and stick stuff that we dangle in front of people to try to get them to do what we want them to do, whether that’s, you know, when kids are really little, like sticker charts to get kids to do chores or paying kids for grades or giving grades, the grades themselves are extrinsic motivators or money for grades.

 

00;06;06;19 – 00;06;26;15

Jessica Lahey

A lot of people give money for grades. And then there’s also sort of these negative ones, which are things like, you know, sweetie, if you don’t keep a B or better, you’re grounded or, you know, surveilling kids on their phone, surveilling kids by going on the portal. You’re not there yet, but you’ll find this out. You know, parents can log on 24 over seven and find out what kids grades and points and scores are all the time.

 

00;06;26;15 – 00;06;44;06

Jessica Lahey

All of those extrinsic motivators do not boost kids motivation to do the things we’re trying to get them to do. It actually undermines their motivation. It actually makes them want to do these things less. If you want your kid to not want to learn math, pay them for their math grades. What we want is intrinsic motivation, which is, you know me, set me high.

 

00;06;44;06 – 00;07;06;05

Jessica Lahey

In his book, flow talks about this flow state where you’re in something for the sake of the thing itself, and you’re just really invested because of the thing, not because you’re going to get a present at the end of it. And the way we get that is by giving kids autonomy, which is kind of like independence, but a little different, helping them feel competent and not just confident, not like optimistic, like, oh, my mommy says I’m the best reader in the class.

 

00;07;06;05 – 00;07;25;20

Jessica Lahey

So therefore I’m the best reader in the class. But confidence based on actual experience, trying things, getting it wrong, trying it again, that kind of thing, and real tight connection with both their parents. And for teachers, it’s a much more complicated questions. But you know, helping kids feel connected to the material that they’re learning so that they can engage in it in a really deep way.

 

00;07;25;20 – 00;07;40;18

Jessica Lahey

So if we can give kids autonomy, help them feel competent, and make sure they know that we are connected to them as their parents, that we love them and not some imaginary kid we think we’re raising. You know, I constantly said to parents, we have to love the kids we have, not the kids we wish we had.

 

00;07;40;18 – 00;07;47;08

Jessica Lahey

And we can’t just love them based on their performance. That’s how we get up the chances that our kids will be intrinsically motivated.

 

00;07;47;08 – 00;07;54;02

Dr. Mona

And you briefly mentioned autonomy and independence. Do you want to elaborate more on that? That important difference? Because I completely agree with that.

 

00;07;54;03 – 00;08;13;04

Jessica Lahey

Yeah. Autonomy really has to do with control over details. And that’s what’s been really difficult during the pandemic, I think is as a parent, I have. So as an even as an adult, I have so little autonomy right now over what happens out there in the world. You know, I especially since I’m married to an infectious diseases physician and a medical ethicist.

 

00;08;13;04 – 00;08;29;00

Jessica Lahey

So we follow every rule to the letter, which means there’s very little I can do. And I feel I, you know, I want my kids to to be fine. I want their mental health to be good. And so but I can’t control any of that right now. So I’m exerting even more control inside my house on the things I can control.

 

00;08;29;00 – 00;08;51;24

Jessica Lahey

And so I have to remind myself constantly that as little autonomy or control over the details of his life my kid would normally have, he has even less now. So the greatest gift I can give him right now is a sense of control over his environment, over the details of his life, because this kid is supposed to be individuated and, you know, moving out into the world and becoming his own human being.

 

00;08;51;24 – 00;09;12;12

Jessica Lahey

And right now, so much of that is being taken away from him. And my first instinct, like I said, is to try to control everything. And yet doing the very opposite is going to give him more of a sense of autonomy, more of a sense of self-efficacy, more of a sense of control. So we can avoid, like this horrible cycle of learned helplessness that so many kids have are experiencing right now.

 

00;09;12;12 – 00;09;36;13

Jessica Lahey

Independence is different. Independence is just like, you know, give me room. I have, you know, sort of this idea that I want to do this thing and I can start to enact that. But autonomy really does have to do with control over details. And as a side note, you know, I turned about talked about learned helplessness. We know for a fact that learned helplessness is something that we’re sort of hardwired to do when we are faced with long term sort of pain and suffering.

 

00;09;36;13 – 00;09;59;09

Jessica Lahey

We just sort of one up, roll up in a ball and give up. But the way around that, the way to, short circuit, that is to give more control back, to give people more control. So they can feel more in control of their environment so they don’t feel helpless. So if parents could walk away from this with anything useful, it’s give your kids a little more autonomy now, right when they need it most.

 

00;09;59;12 – 00;10;21;18

Dr. Mona

Oh yeah, I completely agree. And like you said, this year was a test for all of us on how to balance that and so many different parts of parenting for sure. Yeah. And I think the million dollar question that I also wonder and a lot of parents asked me, is what you had mentioned about the intrinsic and extrinsic motivators, like, what are our options if you don’t want to bribe, nag, or impose punishment in order to get your kids to do what you want to do.

 

00;10;21;18 – 00;10;32;05

Dr. Mona

For example, if you want them to be, you know, put all their effort into something, how can you allow them to do that and almost find that intrinsic motivation themselves without being pushy? Does that make sense?

 

00;10;32;05 – 00;10;51;11

Jessica Lahey

Yeah. And what’s so interesting is people tend to come back to me, you know, after I’m talked about this stuff or after they’ve read my book and they’re like, look, that’s just, you know, permissive laissez faire parenting. And that’s not at all what I’m talking about. Permissive parenting or laissez faire parenting is when you sort of like, just walk away, you know, just hope it goes okay.

 

00;10;51;11 – 00;11;16;01

Jessica Lahey

I actually have never been a more strict parent, as when I started doing some of the stuff that I researched about and give to failure, because when you are giving kids more autonomy, the thing you have to do is set really clear and thorough expectations for what you expect from them in terms of, you know, their homework or their piano practice, or how they’re going to do work around the house, that kind of stuff.

 

00;11;16;01 – 00;11;36;21

Jessica Lahey

And then when they don’t meet those expectations, backing up for just a second, you have to realize kids brains aren’t finished developing until they’re early 20s to mid 20s. And so when you. So for example, if you say, look, if you don’t do your homework, I’m taking away your electronics, that makes no sense to kids who do not have fully developed frontal lobes.

 

00;11;36;27 – 00;12;00;11

Jessica Lahey

So for an adolescent, when you say if you don’t get an A in math, you lose your, you know, your phone that has nothing to do with natural or logical consequences. So as much as possible, set really, really clear expectations. And then the consequences for not meeting those expectations should be logical consequences. So for example, if I step back and he’s 17 so goodness knows I hope I have.

 

00;12;00;11 – 00;12;18;24

Jessica Lahey

And I say look my your schoolwork has nothing to do with me. I’m here if you need help. And he asks us for help quite a bit and to bounce ideas off of us. But his getting his homework done has nothing to do with me. It’s his responsibility. And we’ve set expectations around that. So if he doesn’t get his homework in, I’m not going to take away electronics.

 

00;12;18;24 – 00;12;42;12

Jessica Lahey

That’s a whole weird non-sequitur. What he will have to do, though, is set the meeting with his teacher where we sit there with him, with his teacher, and we all brainstorm about ways to support him so that he can change his strategies, come up with strategies that can help him remember to take his homework to school. And I can tell you right now, they would much rather lose their electronics than run that kind of parent teacher meetings.

 

00;12;42;12 – 00;12;54;23

Jessica Lahey

So logical consequences. Any time it’s at all possible for you to think about what the natural consequence would be, and then set a really logical consequence based on those natural consequences. That works really great.

 

00;12;54;23 – 00;13;08;16

Dr. Mona

That makes a lot of sense. We talked about at the beginning, I think we forget to do that because we think so much short term. You know, I think a lot of times parents think, okay, well, this seems like what’s going to be best right now to make sure that my child understands that they should not have done this.

 

00;13;08;16 – 00;13;18;20

Dr. Mona

But that’s not the long term growth mindset or the long term, sustainability that we want for that child as they become an adult and have to make their own choices and achieve their own goals. So I love that so much.

 

00;13;18;20 – 00;13;40;18

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00;13;40;20 – 00;14;04;04

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00;14;04;08 – 00;14;14;03

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00;14;14;06 – 00;14;29;15

Jessica Lahey

I think there’s a lot of like, we tend to live in those emergencies you were talking about. And so we tend to think, okay, I want to fix this now. I don’t like seeing my kid frustrated. I don’t like my kid seeing my kid feel like he’s stupid. So I need to fix this now. This homework needs to be done perfectly.

 

00;14;29;15 – 00;14;56;20

Jessica Lahey

But here’s the question. Do you want your the dishwasher loaded perfectly now? Or do you want a kid who can do it himself in a month, or in six months, or in whatever your timeline is? And my answer, especially now that my kids are older, is I need my kids to be able to do it themselves so I could step in and do it for them, or I can teach them and support them as they’re learning how to do it themselves, or give them some freedom to do it wrong so that they can figure out how to do it differently next time.

 

00;14;56;20 – 00;15;10;09

Jessica Lahey

And that’s, you know, that’s our job is to help kids, not deny the mistakes they make, not blame it on someone else, but to say, look, what are you going to leave behind? What didn’t work and what did work that you’re going to carry forward with you so that next time you’ll do even better? That’s got to be our goal.

 

00;15;10;09 – 00;15;13;27

Jessica Lahey

Not in those short term emergencies, but parenting for the next iteration.

 

00;15;13;27 – 00;15;23;03

Dr. Mona

And speaking of goals like for the child themselves, what are the best type of goals that the child can set? Is there something that would be kind of beneficial for that child and who should own the goal?

 

00;15;23;07 – 00;15;45;11

Jessica Lahey

It’s been really interesting. We switched in this house mainly because as an advisor in middle school, one of the really effective things we did with kids was help them, come up with long term goals and then help them with the short term, achievable goals that will get them to those long term goals. That’s part of something called self-directed executive function, something that middle school kids have a very tenuous grasp on that they need help with.

 

00;15;45;11 – 00;16;01;26

Jessica Lahey

And so I don’t know why I wasn’t doing this with my own kids, but it’s turned out to work really, really well. If we come up with an every season or so, we do this where we come up with like, what are our goals for the next three months? And the rule in our house is that one of those goals of the three has to be a little bit scary.

 

00;16;01;26 – 00;16;23;26

Jessica Lahey

It has to sort of push us outside of our comfort zone. And then every once in a while, we come back and we talk about those things. So I don’t have an answer for you as to what are good goals for your kids, because those goals need to be your kids. So, for example, while I would love my kids goals to be to get all A’s and all topics to be completely on top of the SAT and Act, and to have his college essays done by the end of the summer.

 

00;16;23;26 – 00;16;38;09

Jessica Lahey

Those are my goals for him. His goal may be, you know what? I’ve been sticking around with the same group of friends for a while, and I think it would be really good for me to try to make some new friends. And that’s actually comes from real life. That was a goal he set for himself once, and I never would have thought of that.

 

00;16;38;09 – 00;16;53;27

Jessica Lahey

But in the end, though, social skills actually are going to be so much more important to him and relevant to him than a goal I set for him. So I can’t tell you what your child’s goals should be. I can tell you that they should be your child’s goals, though, not your goals for them.

 

00;16;54;03 – 00;17;00;22

Dr. Mona

You know, the title of the book that we’re talking about is The Gift of Failure. And why do you look at failure as a gift?

 

00;17;00;24 – 00;17;18;23

Jessica Lahey

So title of the book is a Gift of failure. But as a teacher, as a parent, the very last thing obviously I want is for my students, my kids to fail, but they’re going to. So there’s no getting around that. Right? So I got to be a part of a television show for Amazon Prime. It’s for little kids called The Stinky and Dirty Show, and it’s about these.

 

00;17;18;23 – 00;17;42;19

Jessica Lahey

I wrote the curriculum for it, and it’s about these two characters that tend to think like preschool aged kids, and they have to solve a problem, and they tend to go about it in a way a preschooler would, with some suppositions that just aren’t going to work. But the point is, is that they support each other as they are learning and figuring out how to do it on their own and figuring out how to do, you know, make the next iteration be more successful than the last iteration.

 

00;17;42;19 – 00;18;11;24

Jessica Lahey

And it’s so important that kids have a positive, adaptive response to failures as opposed to denying them, as opposed to pretending it never happened, as opposed to blaming it on their brother or some other person. That’s what’s going to keep us stuck where we are. And that’s how kids don’t learn. Kids learn when they actually look at the mistakes they made with a really as objective an eye as they can figure out what work, to figure out what didn’t work, and then move forward from a place of I want to do better next time.

 

00;18;11;24 – 00;18;26;23

Jessica Lahey

And you know, failure is a really scary word and it’s clear that when I talk to parents about it and even when I talk about like, serious, like my kid is failing out of school, and I tell those stories in the book, too. There’s a story in the book about a kid who was literally about to be kicked out of school.

 

00;18;26;25 – 00;18;43;16

Jessica Lahey

And those are really scary things. So what I try to do is to take the emotional weight out of those things so that we can look at them as learning experiences and deal with them in a way that’s not just about our own fears of failing as parents, our own fear of our kids being failures as human beings.

 

00;18;43;16 – 00;18;57;15

Jessica Lahey

You know, when our kids screw things up, that’s just what they’re supposed to do. That’s why teaching middle school is so much fun. I get to watch kids grow up all day long and find the learning opportunities and that, and that’s why it is a blast to be a middle school teacher.

 

00;18;57;22 – 00;19;14;07

Dr. Mona

Well, that’s why I love the name of your book and a gift of failure. You know, I mean, that is something really important that we understand that it is a negative thing sometimes to look at failure. Like, I agree with you, we don’t want people to fail, but failure is going to happen in our lives. We’re not going to always succeed at the things that we wanted to.

 

00;19;14;07 – 00;19;29;08

Dr. Mona

And it’s about that process that you mentioned, and I think it is a gift. When you look at how you got through that right and how you got through that, what you learn from that process. And that is a true gift that I think every one of us as adults can learn. And what I hope to teach my son to write, that I don’t want you to suffer.

 

00;19;29;08 – 00;19;46;14

Dr. Mona

I don’t want you to feel pain. I don’t want you to do that. But if it happens, I want you to have the resiliency and the understanding of how can I move forward from this and get better through this process, because that’s what every adult even needs to learn. I feel like a lot of adults don’t even have that perception on failure or, you know, not getting what they want.

 

00;19;46;16 – 00;20;00;24

Jessica Lahey

Well, and I think we also forget that we are our kids best teachers. And so modeling that for them is really, really important. And so I actually use the book The Gift of Failure as an example of that, because I handed in my first draft of that book. It was my first book. I didn’t know how to write a book.

 

00;20;00;24 – 00;20;16;02

Jessica Lahey

I was a journalist, I knew how to write articles. And I handed in the first version of that book, and, my editor called and summoned me to New York, which is never good. I mean, part of me wanted to believe, like, she’s going to say it’s perfect in there, no edits needed, but that’s just not how it works.

 

00;20;16;02 – 00;20;35;07

Jessica Lahey

And so what she told me when I got to her office was that the book was so disorganized that it was unpublishable in its current state, and what she wanted to do was bring on a ghostwriter, which was someone to essentially help me, a professional writing with writer with my writing, which was humiliating to me. And so I could have accepted that.

 

00;20;35;07 – 00;20;54;02

Jessica Lahey

I could have said, you know, yes, let’s just fix it and move on. Instead, what I said to her was, look, tell me everything I did wrong. And I had a notebook with me. I filled it up. It was horrifying. I wanted to throw up right there in her office. I’m a perfectionist. I’m used to being told I’m good at stuff, and I’m suddenly being told I’m bad at this thing.

 

00;20;54;02 – 00;21;16;06

Jessica Lahey

And so she’s like, look here, it’s just a matter of organization, and here’s what you can do, and don’t do this and do do that. And so I begged for two chapters as probationary chapters. And she let me have them. And those two turned into four. And obviously that turned into the whole book. But my kids understanding of why I have a New York Times bestselling book is not because everything comes easy to me.

 

00;21;16;06 – 00;21;38;29

Jessica Lahey

It’s not because I was an overnight sensation, and suddenly I just wrote this book and it exploded on the zeitgeist. It was because I had to suck it up. I had to admit that I really screwed up. I had to learn from those mistakes and be able to take all of that feedback and use it. And then when it hit the New York Times bestseller list, like my kids went bananas because that’s they knew what that meant to me.

 

00;21;38;29 – 00;22;00;24

Jessica Lahey

And then when I turned in this next book, The Addiction Inoculation, I had used the mistakes I made on The Gift of Failure as a checklist. I made myself a checklist of what to do and what not to do. Don’t repeat these mistakes. Just don’t be an idiot. Learn from your mistakes. And when I handed in the addiction inoculation, it was free enough of errors that she was like we could move publication up on this.

 

00;22;00;24 – 00;22;21;24

Jessica Lahey

So showing her that I learned from my mistakes was another moment where I was able to say to my kid, you’re never going to believe what happened. You know, all those mistakes I made on Gift of Failure? I tried really hard not to make them again. I learned from my mistakes. And then now the success I’m having around the release of this book is directly related to the really hard stuff that they watched me go through.

 

00;22;21;24 – 00;22;39;06

Jessica Lahey

So modeling that stuff for our kids is so important, because I don’t want my kids to think that everyone out there in the world is just easily pulling this stuff off. It’s really hard work, and I want them to have an understanding of that, not just because it’ll make them work harder, but for their own mental health as well.

 

00;22;39;06 – 00;22;42;14

Jessica Lahey

They need to understand that we’re all a process of becoming.

 

00;22;42;21 – 00;22;59;22

Dr. Mona

And, you know, in this day and age, the reason, you know, we talk about this in modern parenting is social media adds on that other layer of perceived perception, especially for for us as parents, but also for our teenagers and our younger kids who are able to get on social. They feel like, well, this looks good. And no one sees that behind the scenes process.

 

00;22;59;22 – 00;23;15;15

Dr. Mona

No one sees the ten pictures that person took before they put that picture up. No one sees all the hard work that goes behind content creation and all of that. So I agree with you. I think what you, your example that you set, the example you set for your own children on, you know, failing and having to revamp that whole process.

 

00;23;15;15 – 00;23;43;20

Dr. Mona

I mean, what an example for all of us. I think that’s so important. And I just love speaking to you. Just I think it’s so nice speaking to other people that share that same sort of understanding of, you know, how we want to approach the world, how we want our children to be raised and hopefully their peers. You know, we want people to feel this sort of passion for life, zest for life, and not feel discouraged if they don’t reach a certain goal, that there is still potential for them, and that they have to have that mindset that can come with failure.

 

00;23;43;20 – 00;23;46;01

Dr. Mona

Like you said, I just think that’s so important.

 

00;23;46;03 – 00;24;04;08

Jessica Lahey

I actually have to tell you, the students that I speak to do see the pictures behind the pictures, because when I go speak somewhere, especially when there’s a photographer that the organization has hired to take pictures of me when I’m on stage. I talked to them before the event and I say, do not delete the goofiest pictures, because part of what I do on stage is I am.

 

00;24;04;08 – 00;24;23;16

Jessica Lahey

I move a lot and I’m very enthusiastic, and I don’t always look pretty when I do that. So when I go talk, especially to girls, I say, look, I make 70% of my income by going up on stage and teaching people things, and they take a lot of pictures of me. And I can tell you right now, people don’t pay me 70% of my income because I’m pretty.

 

00;24;23;16 – 00;24;40;28

Jessica Lahey

They pay me 70% of my income because I’m really good at what I do on stage. And sometimes I look super goofy when I do that, and I show them the pictures of me looking goofy. And more often than not, what I hear back is you look like you’re having such a good time up there. And that is exactly why I get hired.

 

00;24;40;28 – 00;24;59;05

Jessica Lahey

To do the speaking that I do is because I love it so much, and I want girls especially to understand that we are successful when we’re lit on fire from the inside by the work that we do, and that we’re it’s not always going to be picturesque. And I need for them to understand that. So I think it’s important to show them the goofy pictures.

 

00;24;59;08 – 00;25;17;06

Dr. Mona

Absolutely. Well, everyone, thank you so much just for joining us. I’m going to be adding the link for this book. You have to listen to the other episode, Addiction Inoculation. We talk all about her new book that just came out in April 21st when this was recorded. But the Gift of failure. It’s so important. What would be your final message for everyone listening?

 

00;25;17;06 – 00;25;19;22

Dr. Mona

You had so many great pearls. It would be your final take home.

 

00;25;19;28 – 00;25;38;03

Jessica Lahey

The final thing I usually say to parents when I’m talking about gift of failure is two things that the connection that we create with our kids is based on two things. Number one, that we have to love the kids we have, not the kids we wish we had. And we can’t just love them based on their performance. And I think if we can manage to avoid doing those two things, I think we’re going to be okay.

 

00;25;38;03 – 00;25;38;23

Jessica Lahey

As parents.

 

00;25;38;29 – 00;25;48;05

Dr. Mona

Thank you again, Jess. I hope to have you on in the future. It’s just so nice to talk to you and thanks again for the taking, taking your time today to record this with us.

 

00;25;48;10 – 00;25;54;06

Jessica Lahey

Well, and thank you for what you do for kids. It’s really I don’t know what we would do, what we parents would do without you people.

 

00;25;54;08 – 00;25;57;16

Dr. Mona

It’s a team effort and I’m glad to be a part of it with you as a teacher, too.

 

00;25;57;17 – 00;25;59;14

Jessica Lahey

Thank you. You’re welcome.

 

00;25;59;16 – 00;26;15;09

Dr. Mona

Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review. Share this episode with a friend. Share it on your social media. Make sure to follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram and subscribe to my YouTube channel, PedsDocTalk TV. We’ll talk to you soon.