Do we as adults cause our child to be anxious and does their anxiety cause us to be anxious? On this episode, I welcome Dr. Helen Egger, a child Psychiatrist to discuss the clyclical effect of anxiety in families. We discuss:

• If anxiety in a home can be cyclical in nature?
• How to address a child’s worries and anxieties while simultaneously managing our own worries/fears
• How complete avoidance of fears can negatively impact our children
• When a parent should be concerned about their own anxiety

Find out more about Little Otter at littleotterhealth.com or follow on Instagram @littleotterhealth

00;00;01;01 – 00;00;31;02

Dr. Helen Egger

The first thing is that if parents themselves experience clinically significant anxiety, their children are 4 to 6 times more likely themselves to experience difficulty anxiety. And that’s really because anxiety has multiple sources and components and one of them is biological. And so that when there is anxiety in the family, it is not surprising to see it in kids.

 

00;00;31;05 – 00;00;56;11

Dr. Helen Egger

I think what you’re describing and using the word psychic is really something that we’re all familiar with, which is that in the society and fear can be contained in a way. Right? So when a person is anxious, the people around them will see they’re feeling a worry. They’re feeling of fear. And that can induce a similar feeling in them.

 

00;00;56;13 – 00;01;29;24

Dr. Mona

Hello everyone. Welcome back to the show. I continue to get to talk to the most amazing guests on this podcast who have conversations about parenthood, child health, development, mental health and so much more. So thank you for tuning in and for being here today. Today’s guest is Doctor Helen Egger, who is a child psychiatrist, former chair of the Department of Child Psychiatry at NYU Langone, and co-founder and chief Medical officer of Little Otter, a company that provides online mental health care to children and families.

 

00;01;30;02 – 00;01;39;00

Dr. Mona

And she’s joining me today to talk about how parental anxiety can actually impact childhood anxiety. Thank you so much for joining us today, Doctor Helen.

 

00;01;39;02 – 00;01;42;17

Dr. Helen Egger

Thank you so much for having me. I’m really delighted to be here.

 

00;01;42;19 – 00;01;53;25

Dr. Mona

I’m very excited about this topic. Obviously, with your experience as well in child psychiatry and helping children and families with mental health. But tell us more about yourself and why this topic is important to you.

 

00;01;53;27 – 00;02;22;07

Dr. Helen Egger

Well thank you. Yes. So I have been a child psychiatrist for over 30 years, and one of the areas that I have done research in is anxiety disorders in children, particularly very little children. So anxiety in children to five years old. And I think part of my interest in the area of anxiety came from my own personal experience, being anxious as a child.

 

00;02;22;10 – 00;02;44;11

Dr. Helen Egger

And I’m also a mother of four children and have also dealt with and managed my children’s own anxiety. So I think this is such an important topic and something that really, I think has gotten even more difficult for both children and families over the last difficult three years.

 

00;02;44;13 – 00;03;12;27

Dr. Mona

Oh, absolutely. As a pediatrician, I’m seeing so much more anxiety and even earlier, you know, an age and even before the pandemic, I’ve seen it as well. Parents coming in with younger children or concerns of certain physical symptoms are actually signs of anxiety, which is very common in younger children. You know, sometimes they may not say, mommy, I’m anxious, but they’ll have tummy aches or headaches or things like that that we’re trying to determine, is this something just a tummy ache or is this something like school avoidance, school anxiety, social anxiety?

 

00;03;12;28 – 00;03;35;03

Dr. Mona

There’s a lot of components here, and I’m again excited to talk to you. And the conversation that we’re having is, is there a kind of connection here? You know, you said you kind of learn more about your experience with anxiety and also your children. So do you see a cyclical effect of childhood anxiety and parental anxiety? More so is it that the child’s anxiety can cause parents to get anxious or vice versa, or both?

 

00;03;35;03 – 00;03;36;16

Dr. Mona

Do you see that?

 

00;03;36;18 – 00;04;07;23

Dr. Helen Egger

So we absolutely do. And it goes in both directions. But let’s pull the lens back a little bit first. It’s important to understand that anxiety, particularly clinically significant anxiety, comes from multiple sources. And one of those is genetic and biological. So that it is a parent or a family member has an anxiety disorder. The child is 4 to 6 times more likely to also have an anxiety disorder.

 

00;04;07;26 – 00;04;30;14

Dr. Helen Egger

So that’s really the first thing that we need to think about. And if you are a person experiencing anxiety as a parent, you want to be very aware and alert to your children’s level of anxiety and fears. But I think the other thing is something that’s familiar to all of us. That fear in some ways can be contagious, right?

 

00;04;30;14 – 00;04;58;21

Dr. Helen Egger

If someone is scared, you’re expressing worry in your environment, and people around you can also become worried and afraid. And so that dynamics between parents is something that it’s so important to be aware of. And I look forward to giving you some tips about how to manage it, because it can feel overwhelming and not manageable to have that kind of back and forth anxiety and fear.

 

00;04;58;23 – 00;05;21;21

Dr. Mona

Absolutely. And I think sometimes when parents hear this, you know, like I’m going to give example of mothers who have a newborn with postpartum anxiety. The mom. Yes, I’m using an example when I talk about colic. Right. Colic is a very interesting thing because colic is means that there’s no medical issue. Right. We’ve ruled right anything medical. I want to be clear here because sometimes people are like, you know, my childhood colic but had a milk protein allergy or had reflux, that is reflux.

 

00;05;21;21 – 00;05;44;19

Dr. Mona

Or I’m talking about colic as its own entity. No other medical issue. Colic. There’s also some idea that it could be cyclical, right? Meaning the child’s upset or cranky. And then the mother’s stressed, worried that she can’t calm the baby down, gets nervous. The parents are fidgeting and sort of passing the baby around. And it’s not until the parents kind of take a breath and calm down at the baby finally falls asleep.

 

00;05;44;19 – 00;06;08;09

Dr. Mona

We see this, and I see this in my office, and the reason I’m bringing it up is that I think sometimes parents feel, well, it’s my fault, you know? Oh my gosh, I’m so anxious and I’m causing this for my child. And I hope people understand that this is more so that, like you said, that we can really be in tune to our feelings so that we can get the skills or get the help that we need so that we’re not feeling super anxious about everything and that your child isn’t feeling anxious.

 

00;06;08;09 – 00;06;25;01

Dr. Mona

So it is a self-help improvement thing and not a shameful thing because I believe that too. You know, I think it’s so important that we’re in tune with our mental health, are things that are making us nervous. The things that are causing us to have fear for ourselves. And like you said, also because our children can sense that as well.

 

00;06;25;03 – 00;06;54;24

Dr. Helen Egger

Yeah. And I think it’s also really important for us to talk about what anxiety is, right? Because anxiety is something that everybody feels and everybody experience. And that’s a good thing. It protects us from danger. It helps us identify us and be aware of our environment so that what we want to think about is not sort of what is typical anxiety.

 

00;06;54;24 – 00;07;12;24

Dr. Helen Egger

But when is a person, whether it’s a parent or a child, when is their anxiety so pervasive and uncontrollable that it is impacting their ability to function or it’s impacting other people?

 

00;07;12;27 – 00;07;38;28

Dr. Mona

Oh, this is so important. And, you know, going back to your comment about genetics, right? Obviously, yes, I agree that there is some genetic component like we’re talking about. But what I’ve always wondered. So it’s something like anxiety. Do you find that it could be hard to determine if it’s genetic or environmental? Giving an example. So if I grew up with a dad who had anxiety, right, I grew up seeing how he responded to certain situations, and I also started to respond the same way.

 

00;07;38;28 – 00;07;57;28

Dr. Mona

Now, if I was removed from that home and was raised by parents who did not have those tendencies, I’m talking about the physical mannerisms that can come with anxiety, right? The pacing, the biting of the nails, the nervousness that you’re seeing in that environment. So is it that it’s truly genetic, or is it that there’s also that environmental component?

 

00;07;57;28 – 00;07;59;28

Dr. Mona

It’s hard to know because it’s yourself.

 

00;08;00;02 – 00;08;26;15

Dr. Helen Egger

So it really is both. When we think about the genetic component, that’s not like we know what’s going to happen. Think about it as a risk. Yeah. So it means the way that your nervous system is built, the way that your brain is wired gives you the propensity to be able to react in a more anxious or fearful way.

 

00;08;26;18 – 00;08;49;14

Dr. Helen Egger

But what you’re describing is that what happens to us and what our experience says are both in terms of modeling, as you’re describing with your dad, but also other kinds of experiences that we have are going to shape whether our anxiety gets expressed in a way that has a negative impact.

 

00;08;49;16 – 00;09;03;20

Dr. Mona

Yeah, absolutely. This it’s so fascinating to me because it’s this whole nature nurture. Like if you removed from an environment and raised by people who weren’t having those anxiety tendencies, you know, just by watching, like, could you not present that like the child? It’s just an interesting conversation.

 

00;09;03;22 – 00;09;31;18

Dr. Helen Egger

But I think it’s important to realize when people talk about is it this or that? These are really different components that are contributing really to people’s emotional makeup, right? Yes. And I think the other thing that’s important to recognize is that children who are anxious also and also have a heightened sensitivity to other people, they have increased empathy.

 

00;09;31;21 – 00;10;10;24

Dr. Helen Egger

They have real attention to their environment. So like anything like, you know, it’s not like anxiety is bad. Anxiety is part of life. And children who are at, higher risk for anxiety will also have strengths and capacities that are going to help them in life. So I think that what I say to parents and I feel like this is my most important message I’d want to share, is our goal as parents is to help our children manage their anxiety, not to make their anxiety go away.

 

00;10;11;23 – 00;10;50;02

Dr. Helen Egger

So it’s by learning skills to deal with our fears and anxiety that kids function better and anxiety goes down and doesn’t impair their functioning. And one of the big ways that you can see the cycle that you described, right. The cycle between parent anxiety and child anxiety is avoidance. So many adults who themselves have anxiety or had anxiety when they were children find it so upsetting when their own children experience anxiety, it’s painful.

 

00;10;50;02 – 00;11;17;26

Dr. Helen Egger

We see that they’re in distress, we see that they’re suffering. So an example I would give, let’s say a kid is having trouble separating and going to school, right? One of our first instincts as a parent is to hold our children in our arms and take them away from this situation that is making them so unhappy. And that is a way of dealing with anxiety that we call avoidance.

 

00;11;17;28 – 00;11;49;23

Dr. Helen Egger

And the problem is, while avoidance can seem to be solving the anxiety problem in the moment, it’s actually making it worse. So the message that you’re giving your child when you help your child avoid an anxious situation is, boy, you’re right. This is a scary, dangerous situation and I’m going to step in as your mom or your dad and take you away from this scary situation.

 

00;11;49;26 – 00;12;19;00

Dr. Helen Egger

And the message we really want to give children is, I’m here to help you through the anxiety and the fear that you’re experiencing so that you can go do this thing, in this case, going to school. And so I think that one of the reasons that parents and I’ll speak for myself here, because my kids had a lot of anxiety that their anxiety and distress made me feel really anxious.

 

00;12;19;19 – 00;12;39;17

Dr. Helen Egger

We think to ourselves, I’m helping my child. But in some ways it’s also helping us. Yeah, by lowering our anxiety. And that’s the cycle that is really not a healthy cycle that we want to help parents and children find better solutions to that kind of situation.

 

00;12;39;19 – 00;12;55;02

Dr. Mona

Oh, what a great point. Because yes, you’re right, I am a mom of a toddler and I talk a lot about this. You know, especially speaking of a lot of our children in the pandemic, right? You know, they’re a little more cautious, if you will, if they didn’t have more time, maybe to adjust to a social activity or a party or things like that.

 

00;12;55;02 – 00;13;10;19

Dr. Mona

And yes, what you’re bringing up, like if you were like that as a child, it’s uncomfortable for you, right? So much of parenting and so much of what we do as parents comes from our childhood or comes from who we are and the insecurities we may have with our feelings. And it goes back to the negative stigma like we’re talking about, of anxiety.

 

00;13;10;19 – 00;13;27;27

Dr. Mona

And I love the way you’re phrasing it, because it’s so important for people to hear that anxiety is a common human emotion, and it’s evolutionary. It’s biological. We have anxiety to protect ourselves from all these animals and caveman era, right? It’s important that we’re not constantly like, oh, this is not a threat. There’s not a car coming in my rearview that’s about to hit me.

 

00;13;28;01 – 00;13;55;12

Dr. Mona

This is completely fine. Like you have to have some level of alarm, but it’s when you said, like you said, perfectly. And we see this commonly in parents. It’s when that alarm overtakes you and starts to consume your thoughts and everything about you. And so I think this is such an important conversation. I think one of my biggest questions, and I’m sure we could do a whole hour long more episode about this, but how can we address our child’s anxiety while simultaneously managing our own fear?

 

00;13;55;12 – 00;14;11;28

Dr. Mona

Like what you just said, that example that it makes you feel uncomfortable as a parent. So you’re thinking, okay, let me pull them out of the situation, but how can we tell ourselves as adult, hey, we need to actually combat this situation. We need to figure out what to do versus also trying to retreat because you’re scared.

 

00;14;12;00 – 00;14;47;26

Dr. Helen Egger

Okay, so I think there’s a few things that we need to talk about here. I think the very first thing is that if a parent is experiencing anxiety, that’s really causing them a negative impact or they think is impacting their child, please get mental health care because we have such good treatments and interventions for clinically significant anxiety. I mean, I don’t know if you want to talk about the different kinds of anxiety, but people can have anxiety.

 

00;14;47;26 – 00;15;19;16

Dr. Helen Egger

That’s why we called generalized anxiety. And that’s a lot of worrying, particularly worrying about things that will happen. There can be social anxiety, which is anxiety about social interactions and being with people. We see separation anxiety, which is really prominent we see in children, but we’ve actually learned that adults can experience separation anxiety. Also. And that’s when you feel overwhelming fear and worry when you’re separated from a loved one.

 

00;15;19;19 – 00;15;50;29

Dr. Helen Egger

And there, you know, phobias and some other kinds of anxiety. But I think what people don’t recognize is that you don’t have to suffer. Yes. And that there is help and there is such strength when parents seek out help for themselves. And that’s why the company that I founded, Little Otter, which, by the way, I co-founded with my daughter, our approach is focused on the whole family.

 

00;15;50;29 – 00;16;27;03

Dr. Helen Egger

We say, you don’t bring a problem child to Little Otter. You join Little Otter as a family and we take care of the whole family. So we don’t just do child mental health, we do parent mental health, couple counseling, parenting support, and so often for kids anxiety. For me, as a psychiatrist, I want to understand what the parents are experience and make sure they’re getting the help that they need, because that’s going to put them in the best position to be able to help their child manage their fears and anxieties.

 

00;16;27;05 – 00;16;44;02

Dr. Mona

Absolutely. Thank you so much for that. Because it is I mean, we can’t focus only on saying, okay, the child has anxiety. It’s not anything to do with me. Like it obviously is a family unit, especially with mental health. I mean, you know, physical health is also something, right? Like we talk about if you’re eating something, then your child will model.

 

00;16;44;02 – 00;17;04;05

Dr. Mona

But also how we cope with fears and stress is also something that our children are always looking at. And it’s so important to always recognize that. And somehow, some way, mental health always gets put in the back burner. You know, we tend to focus more so on physical health. Okay, I need to exercise, which obviously helps with mental health with anxiety.

 

00;17;04;05 – 00;17;17;20

Dr. Mona

So yes. But like, you know there’s so much focus on that. But not like, hey, I need to be in tune with myself. But like you said beautifully, if you’re not feeling right and you explain all the different types of anxiety, I think beautiful. Of course we could go into more detail, but I think that’s for another episode.

 

00;17;17;20 – 00;17;38;20

Dr. Mona

But yeah, like if you’re feeling like this is not something you can handle and that it’s just getting to be too consuming, I absolutely agree. And I see the benefits, like so many of my peers, by the way, have had, especially in postpartum right. It can happen at any time in your life. But that first year I’ve seen so many mothers have postpartum anxiety or depression or both and just not get the help.

 

00;17;38;20 – 00;17;56;10

Dr. Mona

And then they realize 2 or 3 years later why they weren’t present, how they were scared all the time, how they couldn’t sleep because they were petrified something was going to happen to their child. And I tell them, I’m like, this is anxiety. Like, you should be able to rest when your baby’s resting. Like you shouldn’t be so on guard that something’s going to happen.

 

00;17;56;10 – 00;17;59;24

Dr. Mona

And if that’s happening to you, we need to get you help because.

 

00;17;59;26 – 00;18;01;00

Dr. Helen Egger

Absolutely.

 

00;18;01;00 – 00;18;17;02

Dr. Mona

It’s not fun living like that. Like I can’t imagine, like I’ve had my bouts of anxiety, but I didn’t have that level of postpartum anxiety. And I’m just like, that is not a comfortable feeling. And that also potentially can be great for you. And, you know, also for the child, like, I want you to feel like you’re in a good space.

 

00;18;17;05 – 00;18;47;22

Dr. Helen Egger

Yeah. And I’d like to frame this in thinking about the question when should I worry about my anxiety and when should I worry about my child’s anxiety? So as I talked about before, anxiety is this alarm system that enables us to respond to danger. And it’s normal. But concern anxiety occurs. And you use the alarm example which is perfect when you’re not in danger.

 

00;18;47;28 – 00;19;19;18

Dr. Helen Egger

Yet the alarm is going off. You’re stealing this persistent, unmanageable, distressing, overwhelming anxiety and it’s impacting your ability to function, he said. About sleep. Or if it’s interfere with you being able to be present and connecting with your child or your partner. So those are the signs that you can use to go get treatment or get an evaluation and possible treatment, because treatment involves learning skills about how to manage anxiety.

 

00;19;19;18 – 00;19;48;08

Dr. Helen Egger

And it’s really important for parents to learn those because I’ll be able to model them for their children. And there’s a similar question with children are the fears or anxiety that my little one is feeling? Is this typical, or is this concerning? And one thing I will share is as an early childhood mental health person, that at the age of three, fears are very common in children.

 

00;19;48;08 – 00;20;18;11

Dr. Helen Egger

It’s actually the peak time throughout childhood of having seizures and worries. And so it’s interesting to be aware develop mentally. And three I think is that tipping point because kids are starting to really develop cognitively. Their language is getting more sophisticated. They have more skills, but they’re really just learning. So they’re really not that good at figuring everything out yet.

 

00;20;18;13 – 00;20;48;08

Dr. Helen Egger

And so I think parents should be aware that we also do see some increase in fears and worries at age three, at around that time, and also during times of change or transition. Right. So it’s very common for kids to have anxiety at the start of school. But the difference between typical and concerning would be if that anxiety isn’t going away after the first week or two of school, right?

 

00;20;48;11 – 00;21;21;06

Dr. Helen Egger

It’s not going away when the child gets comfortable and familiar with the new situation. So the things to look for with kids are in some ways similar to adults. Is the kids fear or anxiety so intense that it’s out of proportion to what they’re facing? Do they try to avoid things because of their fear. Does the fear happen almost every time that the child experiencing whatever they’re afraid of.

 

00;21;21;06 – 00;21;48;11

Dr. Helen Egger

Like if they’re afraid of dogs every time they see a dog. Or is it happening really throughout the day and in different settings. And then is it uncontrollable? Is it so overwhelming that parents or other adults can’t soothe the child or help them regulate their fears, help them with that? And lastly, if it’s interfering with the child’s functioning and the family’s functioning for the child’s development.

 

00;21;48;14 – 00;21;58;16

Dr. Mona

Using that example of the dogs there. So you’re saying, like if the child sees a dog and gets nervous, okay, this could be normal as long as they’re functioning fine, but if they’re at home and they wake up having nightmares about a.

 

00;21;58;16 – 00;21;59;20

Dr. Helen Egger

Dog, that’s something.

 

00;21;59;20 – 00;22;01;22

Dr. Mona

It tends to be more of a discussion.

 

00;22;01;25 – 00;22;31;08

Dr. Helen Egger

Right? Or is if they really every time they see a dog, they get completely panicked, upset, start crying, try to run away. Right? It’s also really about the intensity and the uncontrolled ability of the anxiety. Right? So that’s something that is really important to be able to look at. And another thing I’d like to talk about, because you talked about the cycle of anxiety between a parent and a child.

 

00;22;31;10 – 00;22;53;11

Dr. Helen Egger

And I think one of the other things that we do as parents is try to provide reassurance right away, or to try to jump in with a solution. So let me give an example. A child is afraid to go on a playdate or a birthday party and saying, oh, it’s going to be okay, it’s going to be fun.

 

00;22;53;11 – 00;23;17;24

Dr. Helen Egger

Or oh, I’m sure that you’ll see your friend Susie there and it will be great. And that’s a very normal reaction that we have because we want to go in and we want them to feel better and to come up with solutions. But I would really recommend to parents, it’s sort of linked to the avoidance thing. Don’t jump in to try to make your child’s anxiety go away.

 

00;23;17;27 – 00;23;54;18

Dr. Helen Egger

What really helps children learn to manage their anxiety is to get the message that anxiety and fear are just emotions. Like any emotions, we’re not scared of them. Everybody feels these kind of emotions. And here are the ways that we first recognize it and then how we can help manage it. I always say, you want to listen. You want to acknowledge, you want to be empathetic and really give your child the opportunity to share with you what they’re feeling.

 

00;23;54;20 – 00;24;11;25

Dr. Helen Egger

And then you can be very positive if you’re being reassuring. It’s not like, here’s the solution, but like, okay, well, this is going to be good. Let’s give this a try. I have confidence you can do it. And I’m here with you. I’m here to support you.

 

00;24;11;27 – 00;24;29;20

Dr. Mona

Oh so important. Same example for like when parents try to reassure their children about vaccines and masks. Right? Right. They tell them it’s not going to hurt. I’m like, well, we can’t I know parents are doing that because they’re trying to just pacify them. But in a sense, it actually it may hurt a little bit, but you’re going to be right there with them and it’s going to be, you know, they’ll get through it.

 

00;24;29;20 – 00;24;44;14

Dr. Mona

But it’s being honest. It’s having those conversations because rather than false security, false like, you know, oh, you’re going to be fine. There’s nothing to worry about. There’s nothing you need to be afraid of. Like, I love that and I thank you so much for saying that because it’s like us like, you know, I know everyone listening has an adult.

 

00;24;44;14 – 00;24;58;22

Dr. Mona

You probably have some sort of fear of something. Everyone has some sort of maybe fear that’s either rational, rational, whatever you want to say. But if someone were to say, oh, that’s nothing like, why are you afraid of snakes? Like, just touch the snake. Like it’s really not going to help you. You don’t want to touch the snake.

 

00;24;58;27 – 00;25;16;01

Dr. Mona

Rather like, hey, here’s a snake. What is it that you don’t like about snakes? Like, is it that it’s slimy? Is it that it slithers? Like, what is it that you don’t like? It seems so obvious. But like you said, I wonder if we don’t do that as parents because of our own battles with normalizing anxiety or our own uncomfortability with talking about these emotions?

 

00;25;16;01 – 00;25;19;04

Dr. Mona

Like, why do you think a lot of parents may have that difficulty?

 

00;25;19;07 – 00;25;44;20

Dr. Helen Egger

Well, I think it’s we want to provide reassurance. And the example you gave like was shots or something. It’s kind of false reassurance, right? I mean, it hurts a little bit and then it will be over, but it’s not. And I think there’s another piece of it that is so important, which is a child’s anxieties or fears might seem really small to us, but it’s big to them.

 

00;25;44;22 – 00;26;10;19

Dr. Helen Egger

And I think this is part of what I’m describing. Enabling your children to have these feelings is that you’re also acknowledging that you take them seriously. Yeah. And that what they’re experiences is their experience. It’s scary to them. Right? Yeah. And that you can really empathizing. You see them you hear them right. Rather than kind of shutting it down.

 

00;26;10;19 – 00;26;45;02

Dr. Helen Egger

And you know, we see parents I think again unintentionally can and we were raised many people raised with these kind of phrases. But even shame children like be a big boy. Yeah. Come on, big boys aren’t afraid, you know? And then what is that message we’re sending our child, right. That it’s something that because he is having that feeling there’s something wrong with him and that to be good or to be a big boy, he needs to not have these kind of feelings.

 

00;26;45;05 – 00;27;08;24

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And those feelings like we talk about are always going to be there. It’s not just talking about that looks like, which means that they can’t ever process these feelings like it’s such a beautiful conversation to have with you, because it is something that when parents can kind of respect this sort of dichotomy of respecting the child’s feelings, embracing it, not being shameful of it, and really learn to help support them and support their own mental health.

 

00;27;08;24 – 00;27;18;15

Dr. Mona

It can really lead to so many, in my opinion, breakthroughs as a parent in terms of the way they approach parenting and guiding their children’s emotions. So I love this conversation.

 

00;27;18;17 – 00;27;48;14

Dr. Helen Egger

I so agree with you because we’re talking about anxiety, but this is also about how do we teach children to develop their emotional and social capacities in life, and how do we really enable our children to know that we really we really see them, we hear them, we really understand what they’re experiencing. That’s where the true connection can be between other, you know, adults.

 

00;27;48;14 – 00;27;58;19

Dr. Helen Egger

But it’s where there’s really that true connection, where growth and also a feeling of security comes from for kids.

 

00;27;58;21 – 00;28;17;20

Dr. Mona

And it’s such a beautiful thing. I’m very honest in saying, like, I grew up in a loving household, but in a household that didn’t embrace mental health, diversity and concerns. You know, I’m an Indian American, even you don’t have to be cultural. But a lot of stigma in the Indian-American community about anxiety, depression, all of that. And as I became an adult and started to embrace it, it’s like a sigh of relief.

 

00;28;17;23 – 00;28;35;05

Dr. Mona

You know, my partner is very much like me, that he understands that there’s going to be moments of sadness and worry and fear and and you see the difference. It makes in a child’s life. Like the example I like to share is that when we talk about this chicken or the egg, this sort of connection, whenever I get very stressed or start crying, you know, not we’re not even talking about anxiety.

 

00;28;35;05 – 00;28;55;13

Dr. Mona

We’re talking about crying. My son will immediately start crying. Like immediately. He’ll just stare at my face and just start bawling. And I give this example because again, I don’t want people to feel like they’re causing that on their child. That’s not the point of this. This is like there is some receptive. We’re human beings, like you said at the beginning of this episode that our vibe is contagious.

 

00;28;55;13 – 00;29;12;02

Dr. Mona

Like especially between caregiver and child like. I do believe that strongly that, you know, if I’m yelling and screaming, then my son is going to say, okay, this is how we communicate in this way. Or if I’m crying, he’s going to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And like you said, some children. And I think a lot of them are some are more in tune with those feelings.

 

00;29;12;02 – 00;29;27;10

Dr. Mona

Like you said, those empaths, those ones that are more sensitive are going to be like, oh my gosh, like my mom, who I love dearly, is crying or is upset. This makes me feel really sad. And it’s happened maybe once or twice where I’ve gotten emotional in front of him. It makes me more interested in the subject, right?

 

00;29;27;10 – 00;29;34;08

Dr. Mona

It makes me more like, wow, like, there is absolutely this connection here. And it’s a positive thing. Like, we could use this for good.

 

00;29;34;10 – 00;29;39;21

Dr. Helen Egger

Do you mind if I ask you something? Yeah. How did you respond when your child started crying?

 

00;29;39;21 – 00;30;00;29

Dr. Mona

Yeah. So I was very emotional and crying because a burst pipe. Okay, so the pipe burst and there was water everywhere, and I was home alone. My dog was sliding all in it, and it was very overwhelming. And I compose myself. I looked at his face and I stepped over the puddle of water and I got down and I said, Ryan, mommy was very upset and very sad.

 

00;30;00;29 – 00;30;13;18

Dr. Mona

You are safe here. I’m so sorry. I was crying and I feel so much better now. And it’s okay that you were scared seeing that. And he responds really well to the getting down on the ground connection. You know, like you said in this episode, it’s that connection, right?

 

00;30;13;22 – 00;30;42;29

Dr. Helen Egger

That’s really beautiful. So I think what’s important and that story that you’re describing is you were really upset and were overwhelmed by this feeling of being overwhelmed, which is totally understandable. And at the same time, you were aware of what your child was feeling and experiencing. So at the same time, you were aware of what you’re experiencing and what he was experiencing, and then you were able to step in.

 

00;30;43;02 – 00;31;13;10

Dr. Helen Egger

And absolutely, as you’re saying, being, you know, eye to eye at his level, to acknowledge what he was feeling, to give him reassurance and the important thing to realize is it’s important for our children to know that we have feelings and emotions, right? Yeah. What you said is so perfect because you acknowledged feeling sad and that he’s also safe.

 

00;31;13;13 – 00;31;19;00

Dr. Helen Egger

Yeah, because those two things can happen at the same time, right?

 

00;31;19;02 – 00;31;34;15

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And I think sometimes parents forget like because we are going to have big feelings, right? Hopefully we get to a point where if the big feelings like if you’re yelling all the time, I always tell my families, like, we gotta figure out why you’re yelling all the time. But of course, if this is the one that’s happening like I’m talking about right here, then we have to understand, like, yes, this is going to happen.

 

00;31;34;15 – 00;31;49;26

Dr. Mona

You’re not always going to be cool as a cucumber, but you have to understand what are we going to do? And you’re right, like people forget to address the child. And what we usually do with Ryan in that situation is I say, like, you were sad because mommy was crying and he’s like, yes. And he’s crying while he’s saying that he’s like, yes.

 

00;31;50;00 – 00;32;03;21

Dr. Mona

Mommy was very sad and even like, now, like sometimes I’ll be very tired, you know, I’m pregnant and I’m very, very tired. And so I’ll be laying on the couch and he’s like, mommy, very tired. Like even just recognizing how I’m feeling, you know, it’s such an important.

 

00;32;03;21 – 00;32;38;25

Dr. Helen Egger

Member that’s developmentally so important. Yeah. Look, here’s this little person who’s learning to read by the behaviors and actions and emotions of other people. What does this mean? Right. And then he is seeing that, and then he’ll connect it to his own experience. And you know, I also want to sort of bring into this part of the discussion that families mental health challenges, whether it’s depression or anxiety or other things, are common.

 

00;32;38;28 – 00;33;12;27

Dr. Helen Egger

Many parents are going to experience their own anxiety or depression or other mental health challenges. And part of our job is to be able to get the help and have the social supports we need to be able to function as parents and in other ways. But it’s not shameful to have a mental health challenge. And I don’t think it is like, let’s say there’s a mom who really is struggling with her own anxiety, maybe has OCD or something like that.

 

00;33;12;29 – 00;33;45;03

Dr. Helen Egger

Being able to acknowledge this as a challenge that you’re experiencing and working on is one of the ways that you can break the cycle with your child, right? Because if you can say, yeah, I sometimes have these worries, and if your kid is seeing and say, and mommy has a doctor who’s giving her help with this, and that really opens up the idea that if your child needs help at some point, it’s okay to get help.

 

00;33;45;05 – 00;34;18;07

Dr. Helen Egger

Yeah, you know, you can get helping your family, but they’re also special feelings doctors who can help moms and dads and kids. And I like to think of this not as anxiety or depression, but it’s really about how do we live as fully as possible in being able to understand ourselves and our children and those we love emotionally, and connect with them in healthy ways that help everybody in the family thrive.

 

00;34;18;10 – 00;34;33;13

Dr. Mona

Yes, it’s a whole connection, and I can’t thank you enough for this amazing conversation. You’ve already had so many amazing pearls and messages to share. What would be your final like take home message for everyone listening today?

 

00;34;33;16 – 00;35;15;01

Dr. Helen Egger

Yeah, I think that struggling with anxiety and worrying about how we’re affecting our children can be very isolating and people can feel shame about that. And what I would just encourage parents to remember is that these kind of challenges are so common, and so many of your friends and family members are struggling with them, and that really the power of talking about things, acknowledging challenges is really one of the first ways to get help for yourself.

 

00;35;15;01 – 00;35;35;27

Dr. Helen Egger

And for your child. And I think the shame that is linked to mental health and mental health care is does so much damage. And I just would encourage parents to reach out and get help for themselves and for their kids if they need to.

 

00;35;35;29 – 00;35;46;02

Dr. Mona

Oh beautifully said. And again, this is just such a great conversation. And where can my listeners find more about you and also Little Otter, the resources you have there?

 

00;35;46;02 – 00;36;17;24

Dr. Helen Egger

Yeah, fantastic. Thank you so much. So Little Otter health.com is our website. And similarly on Instagram we have a parent’s Facebook group. And when you come to our website we have tons of amazing free content. And when folks come on board to register, I’ve created what I call the Child and Family Mental Health Checkup. It takes about ten minutes or less.

 

00;36;17;24 – 00;36;54;05

Dr. Helen Egger

Questions about your child’s mental health, about your mental health, and about your family’s mental health and wellness. And right after you complete it, you get a detailed report which says, what does this mean? And what can I do? And so, you know, we at Little Otter really are there. They provide amazing mental health care to children and families, and we want to be the go to place for folks to come for trusted information about mental health and giving parents an answer to that question, when should I worry?

 

00;36;54;05 – 00;36;56;26

Dr. Helen Egger

And if I’m worried, what should I do?

 

00;36;56;28 – 00;37;14;07

Dr. Mona

Oh, thank you so much. And I’m going to be linking these resources, obviously, to the show notes so that everyone can access it. And again, I so appreciate you looking at the whole family unit because therapy and mental health care is involved and, you know, the couples and partners and child and parent and just the parent themselves. So thank you so much.

 

00;37;14;10 – 00;37;20;10

Dr. Helen Egger

Well, thank you so much for having me. This was a great conversation and such an important topic.

 

00;37;20;12 – 00;37;46;22

Dr. Mona

Absolutely. And for all of the listeners tuning in today, make sure you leave a review for this episode. Doctor Helen provided so many amazing tips and resources and just compassion for all of the things that we go through as parents. And I want to make sure that you call her out. If you love this episode, say, I love Doctor Helen’s episode, and I just can’t wait to bring on more guests to have these important and necessary conversations about parenthood, mental health, and so much more.

 

00;37;46;23 – 00;38;02;15

Dr. Mona

Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review. Share this episode with a friend. Share it on your social media. Make sure to follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram and subscribe to my YouTube channel, PedsDocTalk TV. We’ll talk to you soon.