Childhood trauma has unfortunately become a buzzword across social media where sometimes things are labeled as “trauma” that may not exactly be. Or maybe a parent is inadvertently doing something that can lead to trauma. On this episode, I welcome Kobe Campbell, a licensed trauma therapist and author, to discuss : 

• What is the definition of childhood trauma
• How not all crying is trauma
• How to ask yourself if something you’re doing is traumatizing your child
• Holding your child for vaccines, giving meds, brushing teeth. Is this trauma?
• Sleep-training-Is this trauma?

Check out Kobe’s website at kobecampbell.com or connect on Instagram @kobecampbell_

00;00;01;01 – 00;00;23;11
Kobe Campbell
I wanted to find what trauma is first in the most like simple and digestible way. So the word trauma in Greek translates to the word wound. Trauma is a wound from your past that shows up in your present and affects how you orient towards the future. So that’s really important to know. Also, what’s really important to know is trauma is deeply personal and trauma is deeply contextual.

00;00;23;16 – 00;00;32;04
Kobe Campbell
Meaning what may be trauma for one person may not be trauma for another person. What may be wounding for one person may not be even on the radar for another person.

00;00;32;06 – 00;00;54;19
Dr. Mona
Welcome to the PedsDocTalk Podcast, a podcast that continues to grow because of you and your reviews. A podcast where I get to welcome the most amazing guests to chat about all things parenting, child health, child development, and parental mental health and health. Today’s guest is a repeat guest on the show, and you know that when I have a repeat guest, it’s because I love them so much.

00;00;54;19 – 00;01;15;28
Dr. Mona
I love their conversations and I had to get them back on the show. Today’s guest is Kobie Campbell. She is a licensed trauma therapist and author. Her book is called Why Am I Like This? How to Break Cycles, Heal from Trauma, and Restore Your Faith. And she was on the podcast earlier this year talking about how positive parenting positively impacts kids.

00;01;16;05 – 00;01;38;06
Dr. Mona
And I’m inviting her back to chat about what exactly causes childhood trauma. I wanted her to come back because I feel sometimes, especially on the social media space, we label things as trauma that aren’t technically trauma, so we’re just talking about what childhood trauma is, what may cause trauma, and how we maybe know that a child has experienced trauma.

00;01;38;06 – 00;01;40;24
Dr. Mona
But thank you so much for joining me today, Kobie.

00;01;40;26 – 00;01;43;05
Kobe Campbell
Thank you so much for having me. I’m so glad to be back.

00;01;43;11 – 00;01;59;15
Dr. Mona
Yes. Our conversation last time filled my heart with so much love. And so again, if you have not listened to that episode, how positive parenting positively impacts kids. Make sure you do. But for anyone who has not listened to that episode, tell us more about yourself, the work you do as a licensed trauma therapist as well.

00;01;59;17 – 00;02;35;04
Kobe Campbell
Yes. So I am a trauma therapist and I really help people heal. And my heart is to help people heal so that they can live lives that they love. And that usually means having to process, revisit, talk about some really hard things that they’ve experienced primarily in their past, primarily in their childhood. And so I give them a place of safety, and I give them resources, and I give them tools to help them get through some of the ways of their past, showing up in their present so that they can positively orient towards the future.

00;02;35;06 – 00;02;56;04
Dr. Mona
Love it. And again, we talked about this so deeply in the other episode that we were on together, and so I can’t wait to dive into this topic. And this topic is about trauma, childhood trauma. As a licensed trauma therapist, I’m sure you’ve been there many to answer your bread and butter. But I think, you know, like I mentioned already, I think all parents listening wants to provide the best path for our children, you know?

00;02;56;04 – 00;03;14;09
Dr. Mona
Yet sometimes things are labeled as trauma that aren’t. Or maybe something could lead to trauma down the line and we just don’t know. It’s so kind of a loaded question because I’m sure there’s a lot of nuance and stuff, but what exactly defines things in childhood that can cause trauma?

00;03;14;12 – 00;03;35;24
Kobe Campbell
Oh, you’re right, that was a loaded question. I’ll say this I want to define what trauma is first and the most like simple and digest way. So the word trauma in Greek translates to the word wound. Trauma is a wound from your past that shows up in your present and affects how you orient towards the future. So that’s really important to know.

00;03;35;25 – 00;03;54;19
Kobe Campbell
Also, what’s really important to know is trauma is deeply personal and trauma is deeply contextual. Meaning what? Maybe trauma for one person may not be trauma for another person. What may be wounding for one person may not be even on the radar for another person. So I don’t know if I even told you this, but fun fact I’m a twin and my husband is a twin.

00;03;54;21 – 00;03;56;01
Dr. Mona
Oh my gosh, I know. Yeah yeah.

00;03;56;07 – 00;04;23;08
Kobe Campbell
Yeah. And we talk pretty extensively that like what I thought was trauma in my childhood. My sister’s like, I don’t remember that. She’s just like, oh yeah, I remember that. But I didn’t think anything of it. And same thing with him. And there are lots of studies about how specifically about twins, because we’re twins and no doubt about how two people with the same environment, the same biological dispositions, can perceive the same situation differently.

00;04;23;11 – 00;04;49;12
Kobe Campbell
And so I want to encourage parents to, like, take a deep breath and remember that they cannot control fully what their children receive as traumatic later on in life. Right. It’s deeply personal. It’s deeply contextual. Now, that doesn’t mean we don’t have a responsibility to not hurt our children, and that doesn’t mean we don’t have a responsibility to do the best that we can and showing up for them.

00;04;49;15 – 00;05;11;11
Kobe Campbell
And I think a question we should really be orienting ourselves around is, is this wounding to my child? If trauma is a wound, am I wounding my child? Sometimes helping someone looks like to the outer. I hurting them right? So I might be taking my kid’s shirt off because it’s covered in throw up and he might be fighting me back.

00;05;11;17 – 00;05;34;06
Kobe Campbell
Am I helping him or my wounding him? I’m actually helping him because he’s covered in throw up, and I don’t want him to sit in a soaking wet shirt. Right. And so I think that as we think about trauma, especially as parents, our goal should not be, am I traumatizing my kid or not? Our goal should be am I connecting to my kid?

00;05;34;08 – 00;05;54;11
Kobe Campbell
Am I building trust with my kid? Am I building safety with my kids? Am I helping my kids instead of wounding my kids? Because all of those things are the complete opposition of what trauma is, right? And if we orient ourselves toward that, instead of a constant fear about what trauma? If we’re traumatizing our kid, we find ourselves not traumatizing our kids.

00;05;54;12 – 00;05;56;08
Kobe Campbell
Does that make sense?

00;05;56;11 – 00;05;58;25
Dr. Mona
You’re kind of trying to protect them too much in a way.

00;05;58;27 – 00;06;26;03
Kobe Campbell
Well I think that a lot of us become really preoccupied with like is this traumatizing my kid? Yes. We lose sight of what it means to guide our children right side of what it means to have healthy authority in our children’s lives. And we begin to think, if my child is crying, then I traumatize them. I see them, and then we begin to let our kids emotions run the show in the house, run the show in our lives because we’re so afraid of the trauma.

00;06;26;03 – 00;06;36;23
Kobe Campbell
We’re so afraid of them. And so what we do subconsciously is we actually orient ourselves towards trauma and not towards health. Because we’re also afraid of it.

00;06;36;24 – 00;06;54;14
Dr. Mona
Yeah. Well you talked about crying like the example you gave us. Perfect about vomit on a shirt. Right. Like you’re looking out for this is wounding my child is is something that needs to happen. And I feel like a lot of the the sentiment on I hear online, you know, or maybe even my office is about like equating crying to trauma.

00;06;54;14 – 00;07;17;09
Dr. Mona
And I would love to push into that further, that crying is an emotion. But tell us more about why or I guess why not all crying is trauma and why we need to be okay with some crying. I mean, I get it, it’s like a it’s such a balanced conversation because I don’t I’m not saying that we should just let our kids cry and not be there for them, but, why is there this misconception that crying equals automatically trauma?

00;07;17;11 – 00;07;26;18
Kobe Campbell
Yeah, I think it’s because we don’t actually have an accurate perspective of what emotions are. We haven’t fully accepted that the full range of emotions is needed for a full life.

00;07;26;20 – 00;07;27;12
Dr. Mona
Right?

00;07;27;14 – 00;07;54;14
Kobe Campbell
And so we think that, oh my gosh, our kids are feeling angry. They’re frustrated or feeling these emotions that I’m not yet acquainted with. And so I must be hurting them deeply because I don’t understand that it’s normal for a kid to cry because they don’t like something, right? I mean, I totally get that. And I talk to parents about it all the time, and I practice that like, you’re not traumatizing your child by setting boundaries.

00;07;54;16 – 00;08;06;24
Kobe Campbell
You’re not traumatizing your child by making them do something they don’t want to do, like brush their teeth or take a shower. You know, just because they don’t like it doesn’t make it trauma. Right.

00;08;07;02 – 00;08;10;16
Dr. Mona
And she has that.

00;08;10;19 – 00;08;28;11
Kobe Campbell
So I like even as a therapist, I have to remind myself of that. There’s nothing worse than when your kid’s nose is completely blocked up with, like, sticky snot, and you’re trying to suck it out and they’re like, screaming bloody murder. And you’re like, no, I’m hurting you. And it’s like, well, the alternative is that you struggle to breathe.

00;08;28;13 – 00;08;51;00
Kobe Campbell
Is that low? Right? Care? Is that me loving you? Well, no it’s not. And so I think that we have to understand just because our kids don’t like what we’re doing doesn’t mean it’s trauma. And we won’t know what our kids traumas are until they get older, right? Like, Trauma is past pain that lives in the present and orients how we access teacher.

00;08;51;00 – 00;09;12;19
Kobe Campbell
Right? So if it’s something that instills fear in our child, if it’s something that instills a sense of unworthiness, a fear of speaking up, a fear of connecting, that might be something that’s deeply wounding to our children. It might be, but is helping your child get their shoe us because they stuck it on the wrong foot and now it really hurts and they can’t get it off.

00;09;12;19 – 00;09;27;20
Kobe Campbell
Is that trauma because they’re screaming, no, you’re helping them. And I think that we have to understand that providing positive presence and providing positive care does not always mean that our kids are going to display positive emotions.

00;09;27;22 – 00;09;48;00
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And I think this conversation is so important because like I said, I feel that there is this this shift that’s happened in modern parenting. If we want to use that term like our generation, that’s parenting, you know, children. And in the 2020s, is that I think every a lot of us want to be respectful. And, you know, talking about going back to positive parenting, we want to be that positive force.

00;09;48;00 – 00;10;07;09
Dr. Mona
We want to understand the child’s development and we want to be respectful. But in some ways, some parents I see many parents shift to the the extreme of I want to be so respectful that if they’re upset, I’m just not going to do it. Yeah, I think that’s such an unhealthy thing because like you mentioned, that we use it perfectly with the taking out the snot, brushing teeth, for example.

00;10;07;09 – 00;10;24;18
Dr. Mona
Like, of course we can. Of course, like we can show our children model. But for a younger toddler, I’m talking like a 14 month old. They may not want to brush their teeth. And so in that example, we’re going to brush our teeth in a very loving way, as loving as possible. And we’re going to give kisses and hugs.

00;10;24;18 – 00;10;41;12
Dr. Mona
But we need to brush our teeth because I do not want you to get cavities. Right. And so I think a lot of times parents don’t do the brushing or don’t do the what they need to get done because, well, my kid hated it. They cried, and I’m like, oh, like I’m like I’m saying, yeah, yeah. So I guess where is that balance?

00;10;41;12 – 00;11;02;19
Dr. Mona
Because you said it perfectly that yes, when we’re trying to get things done, let’s use like brushing, holding to give medicine, doing all the things for like medical brushing and, vaccines. Right. Where is that line I guess, of. Is this holding causing my child trauma? Because a lot of parents, like, are afraid to hold their child and there was a theme.

00;11;02;19 – 00;11;17;09
Dr. Mona
There was a dentist on social media, a very loving father. I can obviously tell just by looking at them who one of the dental holds for brushing teeth is for a younger child. You’ll, sit on the ground and you’ll put your legs over the child’s arms. And for people who haven’t seen this, it’s not. You’re not forcing.

00;11;17;09 – 00;11;34;24
Dr. Mona
You’re not painting, you’re not yelling, you’re not threatening. You’re literally like laying them down. Their arms are under your legs, and you’re you’re opening their mouth and using your hands to brush while you’re like, kissing them, tickling them, and oh my gosh, copay the amount of like, you’re traumatizing that child. Just wait. Just wait until that child is older and they’re seeing a therapist.

00;11;34;24 – 00;11;52;18
Dr. Mona
I’m like, oh my gosh. Like, how are you looking at one situation with the family? And they’re beautifully demonstrating how the dad, who is a dentist, by the way, is able to get in to the back gums and the back teeth and the child is going to be fine. Like, I just it’s so hard because I see this a lot.

00;11;52;18 – 00;12;12;04
Dr. Mona
And the judgment and the oh, just wait. Just wait until you need therapy. You’re traumatizing your child, that buzzword. And I think that buzzword causes so much shame and guilt to parents. So like, how is a parent supposed to navigate that? Like when they’re just trying to do their best, they’re hearing all these things? And is it that these things are traumatizing?

00;12;12;07 – 00;12;34;29
Kobe Campbell
Yeah, I would say no. And I have to kind of ideas in my head swirling around first and foremost. Again, trauma is deeply personal and deeply contextual. Right. And I think that is why we have to be careful about saying that was traumatic to you. That was traumatic to me. There are some things that are undeniably traumatic. Getting in a car crash.

00;12;34;29 – 00;12;57;19
Kobe Campbell
Absolutely. Yeah. You know, being in a natural disaster. Absolutely. Being abused. Absolutely. But if that child’s parent was a dentist, that parent probably had a conversation of consent. That parent probably worked up and built trust even with the kid, didn’t like it, let them know exactly what they were doing, why they were doing it, and explained it. We have to understand our kids have never been here before, right?

00;12;57;22 – 00;13;27;25
Kobe Campbell
If we can build a sense of norm for them, right? Not completely. There’s some things that are just one. No one likes to be screamed at. Our bodies react in a way that is unsafe, but the reality is like it’s deeply personal and it’s deeply contextual for somebody. They might think, oh my gosh, that’d be traumatizing. Well, that maybe because you’re looking through the lens of how your parent may have done that, or your parent may have, you know, spoken to you and not spoken to you, not giving you an opportunity to consent, things like that.

00;13;27;27 – 00;13;57;27
Kobe Campbell
And so that’s so important. And trauma is deeply personal, deeply contextual. You don’t know what it’s trauma to someone, especially within the context of how they’re raised and what their culture is. So I want to first say that too. I think a great like marker ki guidance principle for parents in this situation is am I demonstrating behavior with my child right now that I would want them to demonstrate to themselves and love and care as adults?

00;13;57;29 – 00;14;14;19
Kobe Campbell
Yes. I want my kid to brush their teeth when they get older. Why? Because I want them to take over my body, teach my kid that they have to brush their teeth even when they don’t want to. I’m demonstrating behavior even against their will, because their itty bitty sweet brains don’t have the capacity to process what’s good and what’s healthy.

00;14;14;19 – 00;14;34;01
Kobe Campbell
It’s just what I want and what I don’t want. I do want to set an example of caring for your body, even if they don’t want to care for their bodies right now. I do want to set an example for them for taking care of themselves through going to the party, even if they don’t want to go to the party right now, listening to their bodies, setting a timer for 30 minutes.

00;14;34;01 – 00;14;54;12
Kobe Campbell
We did this with my son every 30 minutes. We just checked to see if we needed to go pee. Why? We’re trying to teach him to pay attention to his body he needed. He stops. He checked. It was. It was like a WWE SmackDown. Do I want am I teaching him and demonstrating behavior? I want him to adopt in love and care as an adult?

00;14;54;14 – 00;15;21;07
Kobe Campbell
Yes. Even if he doesn’t like it right now. And I think that when we think of through that lens, am I doing something for my kid right now that I know that they will do for themselves later? And if they do it for themselves later, it will be done in love. That is a great, kind of like thing to filter our actions through, because in the moments, I mean, when our teen is activated in screaming, we’re activated and we’re internally screaming, and we don’t need the voices of the people on the internet telling us that we’re traumatizing your kid.

00;15;21;10 – 00;15;46;00
Kobe Campbell
They have no context for what it means to show up for our child in the way that our specific child needs. And so I have fully, I fully receive everything you’re saying and, like, live it out. As a mom who had chronic mastitis thrush, it was really bad. I had to stop breastfeeding. They found a mass on my left breast, and so I just, I, like, push through as much as I could.

00;15;46;02 – 00;15;56;26
Kobe Campbell
And the doctors were just like, this is going to deeply affect your health. You have to stop. And the response from friends, family, even people on the internet was like, well, can’t you use your right one?

00;15;56;29 – 00;15;58;03
Dr. Mona
Oh gosh.

00;15;58;06 – 00;16;08;10
Kobe Campbell
Just like you did. You’re pumping your tube with chemicals. You’re and like. And what I say to parents, it is totally okay to silence the voices of strangers on the internet.

00;16;08;12 – 00;16;09;02
Dr. Mona

00;16;09;04 – 00;16;21;05
Kobe Campbell
It is okay to set a boundary for yourself in that way. And as long as you know that you’re showing up for your kid in a way that is setting a trend of health and care for themselves in the future, like you’re doing a good job.

00;16;21;07 – 00;16;40;18
Dr. Mona
Oh, so beautifully said. And yeah, I mean, this really ties into judgment. And we talked about judgment a little bit on the other episode, too. But how judgment can negatively impact our parenting and how it really makes us second guess ourselves a lot of the times. And then you can start to because you see the judgment and people telling you you can’t hold your child like that to brush their teeth.

00;16;40;25 – 00;17;09;10
Dr. Mona
And it’s, by the way, from a dent, like for me watching that video, it was a dentist father. I know he knows what he’s doing. And it wasn’t a dentist father, let’s say it was another. I know that is actually an appropriate thing to do, but that’s because I’m a pediatrician. I understand child development. I understand that this moment is not going to be the reason why a child is resenting their parent in the future, that they have to brush their teeth, but it’s just like it’s so hard and the judgment is really, like you said, silencing the stranger, silencing those people in your life.

00;17;09;10 – 00;17;31;21
Dr. Mona
I mean, of course, creating boundaries with like, loved ones who may be spewing the negativity and you should do this and you should do that. It can be really, really hard. And the last area so we talked about brushing. And I would throw in holding to give medicine and vaccines. And I want to reiterate to everyone listening that our goal is yes, I as a pediatrician, never want to have to hold down anybody to do anything if I don’t have to.

00;17;31;25 – 00;17;51;18
Dr. Mona
So preparation is important. Verbalization. Debriefing after meeting, of course, is a given. But like vaccines, sometimes we have to have the parent hold them in like a big bear hug. And I want to reiterate that I think the difference here is that this is not yelling threats. Holding. This isn’t like you sit down and you shut up. And I’m going to I’m going to hold you down.

00;17;51;18 – 00;18;06;13
Dr. Mona
It’s that to me it’s traumatizing. And I think you mentioned that that to me is like, whoa, whoa. Like, let’s not be using physical aggression and anger, but I’m talking, hey, sweetie, it’s time to do the vaccine. I get that you’re upset. I’m going to give you a big bear hug right now, and I’m going to give you a kiss right after.

00;18;06;20 – 00;18;08;01
Dr. Mona
I think there’s a difference there. Right?

00;18;08;07 – 00;18;09;25
Kobe Campbell
Yeah. Yeah.

00;18;09;27 – 00;18;24;11
Dr. Mona
So, I mean, and I talk about this and that’s I wanted to chat with you because I’m like, I see the difference. Like in the office, too, when there’s getting to be this sort of yelling match with the child and the parent who’s the parent is usually the one who’s frustrated because they just want to get home and the child is screaming and crying in a corner.

00;18;24;11 – 00;18;44;27
Dr. Mona
I have to tell the parent, I’m like, this isn’t going to go how we want it to go. If there’s yelling and anger and all of that, like, we need to de-escalate, we need to calm the child down. That doesn’t mean the child is going to put out their arm and their arm for the vaccine. But I cannot vaccinate your kid if they’re screaming in a corner and you’re yelling at them, too.

00;18;45;00 – 00;19;03;05
Kobe Campbell
Absolutely. And what’s so interesting is like, you know, I learned with my firstborn because the first time around, it may have been, you know, the not so great explanation that you shared. But after, you know, really getting into positive parenting and respectful parenting and just kind of like figuring out, like, you’re feeling chaos. I’m feeling chaos. What’s going on?

00;19;03;05 – 00;19;22;29
Kobe Campbell
Yeah. Like, we got to a place where there were a couple times where I had to stay calm, do some deep breathing myself on emotions. Hold him down and, you know, hold them in that big bear hug from the get the shot. And something amazing happened probably two times later after he had to get shot, he said, mommy, I think I can sit for this one.

00;19;23;01 – 00;19;25;22
Dr. Mona
Oh wow. That’s it for this one.

00;19;25;26 – 00;19;45;02
Kobe Campbell
And he was still nervous. He still closed his eyes. He still held my hand. But there was something about him knowing, like, I’m holding you not just to restrained you, but also to this sense of security, that I’m here with you as you’re experiencing this. And I’m not upset at you for having big feelings about it.

00;19;45;04 – 00;20;06;03
Dr. Mona
Yeah, I really appreciate having this conversation about the difference between a grown human restraining a child versus holding a child. There’s a difference. Like, I see it, we talk about that with brushing with medicine, like, with vaccines, because there is going to be times and I’ve been there too, with my own children, that I’ve had to hold my son in that same hole that the dentist had where he was laying down, and then he would be upset.

00;20;06;03 – 00;20;19;13
Dr. Mona
And I’m talking him through it. I’m saying, I love you, sweetie. This is so important for your teeth. We’re going to get up and I’m going to give you this big hug and this big kiss, and you’re going to be all done. And after we follow through, right. There’s this connection, like you said, going back to that connection piece.

00;20;19;13 – 00;20;33;24
Dr. Mona
And I love how you phrased it. Is this wounding my child okay. In that moment, I think that’s such a good question that parents can ask themselves, is this wounding my child? The last thing I wanted to talk about, which I think we could spend a whole episode, but I wanted to kind of because we’re talking about judgment.

00;20;33;25 – 00;20;52;07
Dr. Mona
We’re talking about, you know, what is trauma is sleep training. I know you’re not a sleep training expert in the way that, you know, methods and stuff like that, but, you know, Ferber method, which involves crying and intervals and checking in. There has been research studies that show efficacy and safety. And even for my clinical experience, I do believe that it is something reasonable.

00;20;52;07 – 00;21;08;21
Dr. Mona
And it’s what we do with our son. It’s a family wants to do it. Let’s be clear you don’t have to sleep train. You don’t have to do Ferber. But there is that sort of intervals of, okay, you’re crying. I’m going to check in. There’s love, there’s connection. Like we talked about. Do you see any any harm in sleep training is it hard to say.

00;21;08;21 – 00;21;13;00
Dr. Mona
Is it that it really just depends on situations. What are your thoughts about that.

00;21;13;03 – 00;21;43;24
Kobe Campbell
Yeah, I would say sleep training works really well. Was one of our kids like he literally sleeps like 12 13 hours and he’s a baby and he’s great. And you know with our other son he had more difficult issues sleeping. And so it’s okay to not feel like you have to fully commit to any specific type of modality when it comes to showing up for your kids, the same way that trauma is deeply personal, deeply contextual connection is deeply personal and deeply contextual.

00;21;43;26 – 00;22;05;27
Kobe Campbell
And so I don’t see any problem with sleep training. Again, I’m not an expert, but, I will say this one of my kids just needs a little bit more connection than the other. I wouldn’t even say more connection. He needs more physical presence and that is a connection. I think we both deeply need connection, but one of them just wants to lay in bed a little longer, has a little more like anxiety stirring up at night, has a little.

00;22;05;27 – 00;22;25;02
Kobe Campbell
And so we give him a little more. You know, I we don’t swing all the way to the side of like, not letting him experience the stress because there is an age appropriate, developmental stage where kids do need to experience distress. Obviously not too much of it. So that they can learn how to handle it, respond to it, you know.

00;22;25;04 – 00;22;26;17
Dr. Mona
Oh, absolutely.

00;22;26;19 – 00;22;41;12
Kobe Campbell
I just think that like he our oldest son, he’s in that space where we’re like you know Mom and dad is we’re going to read a book. We explain everything, we’re going to read a book. We’re going to lay down with you for a little bit, maybe we’ll sing you a song, and then after five minutes, the timer is going to go off, and then we’re going to walk out.

00;22;41;12 – 00;23;05;07
Kobe Campbell
And I know you might feel really overwhelmed and really sad, but we believe that you can handle these emotions. And if you ever feel too overwhelmed or just knock on the door and we’ll come up and we’ll we’ll coach you through some breathing. Well, you and like so we’re teaching him, hey, you’re not getting everything you want, but when you’re in distress, we’re going to be there not to just take the stress away, but to coach you through how to deal with the distress.

00;23;05;09 – 00;23;28;13
Kobe Campbell
And that’s something that no one can take from him, you know. And so I think that sleep training also, I think sometimes we forget sleep training is also about the family system. And you cannot show up with a sense of courage and a sense of salient connection when they are sleep deprived. Yeah. Like appearance matter in the child rearing process as well.

00;23;28;15 – 00;23;48;26
Kobe Campbell
And so I’ve had to tell some friends like you’re sleep deprived, like it’s doing every part of your life, you have to sleep. And sometimes that means your kid might cry for extra 5 or 10 minutes. But yeah, have to sleep because you’ll be able to give them what you couldn’t give them in that ten minutes the whole next day because you are more rested.

00;23;48;28 – 00;24;04;09
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And I mean, also you were talking about is this wounding my child, like when you’re doing this, is this wounding me? Is this helping me. Like I talk about that a lot. Like the pausing like five, ten minutes. Like there is this misconception that there has to be this immediate again, going back to the crying, right. Going back so that they can’t cry at all.

00;24;04;14 – 00;24;26;06
Dr. Mona
And yes, there is that balance. I love what you said because this is what I preach about sleep training in general is that again, we do not have to sleep train if a family does not want to. And number two, the method may be different. And it’s so important that people know the methods. Like I wanted to do a more gradual method with my son, but it actually made him more agitated if I came into the room.

00;24;26;06 – 00;24;46;05
Dr. Mona
So then we did a Ferber, and then we had to extend it where I gave him longer periods of crying, which you may think like, wait, that goes opposite. But it actually worked for him. And I have that second kid, like you’re saying, and that second child, understanding their needs and their temperament could be completely different. Like, you may need to do more, like you said, more hands on, more physical.

00;24;46;05 – 00;25;03;23
Dr. Mona
And that is what I’m trying to, you know, make sure people understand that because there is judgment, right? You do what you do. You co-sleep with your kid, there’s judgment. You do a cry method with your kid, there’s judgment. I recognize that all that judgment exists and it all comes down to labels of trauma. Oh, that’s traumatizing. You’re going to traumatize your kid.

00;25;03;29 – 00;25;26;04
Dr. Mona
And so what can a parent do if they’re online and hear people call, you know, like just say they’re they post something and someone comments like, oh, that’s traumatizing. How can they approach it? And how can they block out that noise? Or how can they kind of reevaluate, is this something that is okay for my child? I know you already mentioned that beautiful thing about asking yourself, is this wounding to my child, which I think people will really resonate with.

00;25;26;06 – 00;25;32;05
Dr. Mona
Is there anything else they can ask themselves or tell themselves, or is that a pretty good statement? I love it, but I’m wondering if there’s anything else.

00;25;32;07 – 00;25;38;12
Kobe Campbell
Yeah. I mean, something I asked myself, like generally is is this something I am proud of myself for doing?

00;25;38;14 – 00;25;40;05
Dr. Mona
Yeah, that’s a great one.

00;25;40;07 – 00;25;59;00
Kobe Campbell
Other people may not like it. That’s okay. But am I proud of myself for laying in bed with my son for an extra five years? I’m proud of myself for that, you know. And for you, that might be. Oh, you’re not letting him develop autonomy or, you know, he’s going to be too attached or whatever it is.

00;25;59;00 – 00;26;07;25
Kobe Campbell
But I know the deeply personal and deeply contextual needs of my child. And so for me, it’s am I wounded my child into my proud of my actions?

00;26;07;27 – 00;26;29;01
Dr. Mona
I think that is so beautiful, because you just said it in a way that is literally giving ownership to that family to make the choices for themselves, not comparing to others, trying not to listen to what anyone else says. And to me, I feel like parents, especially mothers, and have a really hard time with accepting that and saying, I’m going back to what you mentioned about like formula or stopping to breastfeed, right?

00;26;29;01 – 00;26;46;16
Dr. Mona
You had mentioned about like how you pivoted and there’s just going to be a lot of commentary, but you’re doing what’s best for you. Best for your mental health. And, being proud of that is going to resonate with your family. Right. Like when you we talk about sleep being so important for mental health and being able to show up for our kids, but also feeling confident in the choices that you make.

00;26;46;16 – 00;26;48;05
Dr. Mona
Like you just said, I love it.

00;26;48;07 – 00;26;50;22
Kobe Campbell
Yeah, absolutely.

00;26;50;25 – 00;27;02;14
Dr. Mona
Covid, this is so great. Like I said, I love chatting with you on that other episode. How positive parenting positively impacts kids. This is another amazing conversation. I think I might need you to be like a monthly guest because I love talking to you.

00;27;02;14 – 00;27;05;05
Kobe Campbell
I don’t want us to. I would absolutely love to.

00;27;05;06 – 00;27;08;26
Dr. Mona
Oh my goodness. Well, tell us a final message for everyone listening today.

00;27;08;28 – 00;27;14;28
Kobe Campbell
Yeah, it is okay for you to do what’s best for yourself and your children, even if other people don’t agree.

00;27;15;00 – 00;27;28;14
Dr. Mona
Beautiful. Succinct I love it. It’s completely ties in everything we just said. Thank you so much Kobe. This was such a great, time talking to you. Where can people find you, including your book? I know you released earlier this year, to stay connected with you.

00;27;28;17 – 00;27;43;01
Kobe Campbell
Absolutely. You can find me on all the socials at Kobe Campbell underscore. You can find my book pretty much anywhere you can buy books. Why am I like this is the title. You can also visit me at Kobe campbell.com.

00;27;43;04 – 00;27;58;24
Dr. Mona
Wonderful. And I will be attaching all of that to our show notes so that you can stay connected to Kobe, her amazing book, Why Am I like This? How to Break Cycles, Heal from trauma, and Restore Your Seat. And also remember to check out our other episode about positive parenting. Thank you so much for joining us today, Kobe.

00;27;58;27 – 00;28;00;24
Kobe Campbell
Thank you so much for having me.

00;28;00;26 – 00;28;19;16
Dr. Mona
And for everyone listening. Do remember to leave a review and rating if you love what we talked about. Show Kobe some loves in those reviews because it really means a lot to us. I love chatting with her. I have a feeling she’ll be on again and again. But yes, your reviews mean so much to the show and our continued growth and I cannot wait to talk to another guest next time.

00;28;19;16 – 00;28;35;08
Dr. Mona
Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review to share this episode with a friend. Share it on your social media. Make sure to follow me at Peds Doc Talk on Instagram and subscribe to my YouTube channel, PedsDoc talk TV. We’ll talk to you soon.