Do you know the cultural differences that can exist being immigrant parents and the mental health issues that are unique? Whether you come from an immigrant household or not, this episode is a must to really dive into the cultural stereotypes that exist surrounding mental health and, subsequently, how we show up for our children. I welcome Sahaj Kaur Kohli who is the founder of Brown Girl Therapy (@browngirltherapy), the first and largest mental health and wellness community organization for adult children of immigrants, a licensed therapist, and author of the Book, But What Will People Say: Navigating mental health, identity, love, and family between cultures.

She joins me to discuss:

• The difference between collectivist and individualistic cultures and why the distinction is important
• Why diversity in mental health and parenting resources is important
• What struggles immigrant parents have that may be unique

 

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00:00:01:01 – 00:00:31:04
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
What are other people going to say about this? And they didn’t mean anything by it, right? They didn’t mean like we don’t care about you. We have to get on deserve healing. But for them, it’s a very real fear. And immigrant households and immigrant communities, we’re very insular because it protects us from the dominant society. And in some ways, that protection then becomes almost an inward struggle for many people who are in those communities, because we are so concerned about what our reputation is, if we’re saving face within that community, but also to the outside dominant world.

00:00:31:06 – 00:00:55:04
Dr. Mona
Hello and welcome back to the show. Whether you’re driving, exercising, meal prepping, eating or whatever it is that you do while tuning in to podcasts. Thank you. It means so much that you’re here today. The podcast is growing because of you and your reviews, so keep leaving those reviews and readings, updating them, and sharing the show with any parent, grandparent, teacher, anybody who takes care of children.

00:00:55:04 – 00:01:27:21
Dr. Mona
I see it every week, but in the podcasting world, it’s all about word of mouth and rating or reviews. So don’t be shy and help me out so we can continue bringing you great guests and great conversations like the one we’re having today, which is with the hedge corps. Coley. She is the founder of Brown Girl Therapy at Brown Girl Therapy on Social Media, the first and largest mental health and wellness community organization for adults, children of immigrants, a licensed therapist and a columnist for the Washington Post’s advice column, Ask Sahaj Sahar.

00:01:27:21 – 00:01:51:10
Dr. Mona
Just words and work has been featured in today, Good Morning America, CNN, The New York Times, Huffington Post, and others, and she also serves as a consultant, educator, and international speaker. She sat on panels and delivered workshops and keynotes for the white House, Amazon, Google, and so much more. And somehow she had time to write a book. So she’s joining me to chat about her new book.

00:01:51:16 – 00:02:03:02
Dr. Mona
But what will people say? And we’re going to be breaking cultural stereotypes surrounding Mental Health conversations, which is out now for purchase. Thank you so much for joining me today, sage.

00:02:03:04 – 00:02:05:15
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
I am so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

00:02:05:21 – 00:02:27:09
Dr. Mona
Well, my husband and I are avid followers of you. My husband is also an immigrant child. And we have learned so much not only about how to communicate with each other, how to communicate with our children, being immigrant parents, but also just recognizing the experience that we’ve gone through, having been children of immigrants. And now as we get older and parent our own kids.

00:02:27:15 – 00:02:43:05
Dr. Mona
So you founded Brown Girl Therapy, the first and largest community organization for children of immigrants, in 2019, right before the pandemic. What has been the most gratifying thing about building this community, and what have you learned most from your followers?

00:02:43:07 – 00:03:02:11
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Oh, I have so much to say about that. The whole journey of building Brown Girl therapy has been monumental and liberating and healing in so many ways for me. On a personal level, it’s healing for me. I mean, I started the community five years ago because I was struggling with my own identity crises. I was searching for a community.

00:03:02:11 – 00:03:25:02
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
I was searching for people who had shared and very specific experiences. Like me. I was in the middle of a professional identity crisis because I was leaving one career as a journalist and moving into another career as a therapist, and I just felt like so much of my life was unknown at that moment, and I wanted to find other people who could relate and be a source of community for me.

00:03:25:05 – 00:03:43:23
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And so the most gratifying part of building Brown Girl therapy for me is knowing that I was able to challenge previous held beliefs that I had. I was able to challenge that was wrong. I used to think that no one could relate to my struggles as a child of immigrants. I used to believe that no one could relate or was struggling with straddling more than one culture.

00:03:43:27 – 00:04:03:07
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
I used to think that it was me as the problem, just given the content and resources and books that were out there on self-help and how I didn’t really fully relate to them. And so through building Brown Girl Therapy and now writing this book, I feel like I’ve been able to not only heal a part of me, but also challenge these notions of what wellness is supposed to look like.

00:04:03:09 – 00:04:15:18
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And it’s been reciprocal and mutual, and it’s just really been such an incredible journey to be able to do this alongside so many other people who are also really seeking that emotional wellness with a cultural context.

00:04:15:25 – 00:04:41:20
Dr. Mona
Yeah, and I love that cultural context because again, in the parenting space, I’ve said this before, in the parenting space, there’s a large voice that is are not of immigrant children, meaning a lot of them are of white women. And I think that’s wonderful, right? I think everyone can bring something to the table, but to be able to have more voices of women of color, but also immigrant children, I think is so valuable because we do go through a different experience.

00:04:41:20 – 00:04:59:21
Dr. Mona
I think we’re all, you know, all of us listening, especially if you’re a parent, you are going through the same struggles with tantrums and this and that. But there’s also this cultural aspect, this immigrant child aspect that is an absolute reality. So thank you for doing that. So I know you obviously had your platform and that was doing well.

00:04:59:21 – 00:05:06:21
Dr. Mona
And you also obviously doing your own writing. What made you take that next step and inspired you to write the book? But what will people say?

00:05:06:24 – 00:05:24:05
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
I have always been a writer. I have turned to writing. I write about this in my book, which is, you know, kind of meta in its own way. But I do write in the book about how writing was kind of my source of of my creative outlet for processing all of my experiences, especially in isolation. When I didn’t have the community support that I was looking for.

00:05:24:10 – 00:05:42:12
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And so I have a career in journalism. And then when I started Brown Girl Therapy, I really wanted to merge and marry my passions for mental health advocacy with storytelling and writing. And I didn’t know it was going to become what it is. I’m very grateful that it has become the brand and community it is today. But that wasn’t my intention.

00:05:42:12 – 00:06:02:29
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
My intention was to find community for myself and to share my story and to write, and to keep my kind of toes in the writing world as I went into the mental health world. But over the years, you know, I realized I was getting so many messages from people, I was starting to find it to be really hard to condense everything I wanted to say into a tweet or into a into an Instagram post.

00:06:03:01 – 00:06:22:06
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And I had all of this kind of quote unquote leftover content that I was I was writing and researching and finding, and I was like, where am I going to be able to share all of this in a way that people are going to be able to access it? And so I feel very grateful. But I was reached out to and by literary agents, and we kind of move forward with everything.

00:06:22:06 – 00:06:50:21
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And I think it just became a natural. Next step. I love social media for what it is, but I wanted to expand on everything. I wanted to create a resource and a guide and a compass that has not existed yet until this moment, and I wanted to be able to share all of the work I had been doing, because I’ve spent the last 5 to 6 years now researching, studying this population, writing about this population, and we deserve quality care and we deserve books that speak to us, that look like us, that share our experiences.

00:06:50:21 – 00:06:54:19
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And I just am so happy to be able to offer that to the world. Now.

00:06:54:21 – 00:07:13:24
Dr. Mona
I’m glad that you did that. And I know, I know what a journey it takes to write a book. You know, I have not written one, but I obviously have a lot of friends in the space. All the work that it comes to not only get the concept, write the book, go through all the revisions, but also now when you’re launching it and the book is now out to go and talk about your book and the passion that you have for it.

00:07:14:01 – 00:07:35:26
Dr. Mona
And maybe people are not familiar with why the title as an Indian-American, but what will people say to me that I already know that phrase? That’s something that is very ingrained in us. You know that every decision is based on what will people say? And that’s how we were raised. Maybe describe it for people who may not be familiar with what that phrase means and why you chose that for your title of your book.

00:07:35:29 – 00:07:58:10
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Yeah. I mean, it is such a, colloquial phrase in South Asian households, but I think even more when I chose the title, it was something that was said to me when I was going through my own traumatic experiences and when I was actually, navigating my mental health struggles. Almost a decade ago, my parents had, you know, just and passing said, well, what are other people going to think about this?

00:07:58:10 – 00:08:20:11
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
What are other people going to say about this? And they didn’t mean anything by it, right? They didn’t mean like, we don’t care about you. We have to get home, deserve healing. But for them, it’s a very real fear. And immigrant household and immigrant communities were very insular because it protects us from the dominant society. And in some ways, that protection then becomes almost an inward struggle for many people who are in those communities.

00:08:20:11 – 00:08:48:18
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Because we are so concerned about what our reputation is, if we’re saving face within that community, but also to the outside dominant world. And I think that that is something that I have just seen as a theme through and through with my clients, with the community, with the workshops I do, is that in a collectivist household, in a collectivist community, in a collectivist culture, we are worried about group harmony, about saving face, about making sure that we are protecting our reputation and maintaining the reputation.

00:08:48:18 – 00:09:13:17
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And that is just something that is a part of an everyday life. For anyone who grows up in those communities, our lives, in those communities. And so there’s a specific reason why I chose that title. But then there’s also kind of a more general macro reason, which is that when you live in our straddling cultures and one of them is collectivist in nature, you are always going to be concerned about what other people think and say, because it is just ingrained in the beliefs that we have been taught.

00:09:13:19 – 00:09:38:03
Dr. Mona
Oh, I felt this too. You know, I had a really traumatic birth with my son and it came bubbling up this. But what will people say? You know, everyone’s so quick to celebrate all the good things, right? The, the checkboxes, the. You got married, you got a degree, you have the baby. But the minute I started wanting to talk about my traumatic birth on social and share real photos that weren’t graphic in any nature, but just real struggles, and I went through.

00:09:38:03 – 00:10:10:24
Dr. Mona
And that actually resonated with women from all cultures. My mother and father were like, are you sure you want to post that? And my response was like, mom, I post all the good things. It’s okay. This isn’t anything more than me sharing and the amount of healing I had by sharing that which you know as a fellow writer, but also when people read that right, your community, reading your words and relating to that and saying, yeah, like I feel the same way, like I’ve been in the same boat as you is so therapeutic for so many involved the consumer of the information and also the writer.

00:10:10:26 – 00:10:31:18
Dr. Mona
And I think it’s such a beautiful thing that we can do that and break free of that. Well, what will people say? Because it really can help people feel less alone, especially our peers who may be struggling with very similar things and never have been able to just, communicate. And that is healing in itself, to just say, I’m struggling, but I’m doing I’m going to get through it.

00:10:31:23 – 00:10:33:25
Dr. Mona
And maybe you’re struggling too.

00:10:33:27 – 00:10:51:22
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Yes, I love that. And you’re right, you know, I mean, we were so quick to always share the good stuff. And I think we are so concerned about what other people might think or write. What’s really rooted under that is that anything bad, quote unquote, is a reflection of you or your family or your goodness as a human being.

00:10:51:25 – 00:11:11:28
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
It’s just compounding on the stigma that these quote unquote, negative or bad things are failures, when in reality they’re not they’re just life experiences. And we’re actually isolating ourselves from the very community that we’re a part of and need support from. And it can just be this like ugly cycle, this negative feedback loop that we’re not getting that support because we’re too scared to tell the truth.

00:11:12:00 – 00:11:24:21
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And then we’re upholding a facade of what we, you know, a reputation that we want to uphold, but it’s not actually real because we’re dealing with things by ourselves, which is only worsening our mental health and our connection to other people in our community.

00:11:24:23 – 00:11:43:04
Dr. Mona
Well, I love already that you’ve spoken about the community aspect of being an immigrant child. You know, and in your book, you explain how traditional mental health models are largely Eurocentric and focused on individuality. Can you speak more on this lack of additional perspective and how it may apply to mental health resources?

00:11:43:06 – 00:12:04:21
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Yeah, I mean, if you think about it, the history of wellness in the Western world and therapy in the Western world was created and normed by white people, mainly white men. Right. So these are historically members of the dominant society of cultures that espouse individualism. And so that can make a whole population of people feel left out and not seen in these spaces.

00:12:04:22 – 00:12:23:26
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
I know this from my training as a therapist, that the techniques and the theories and the tools that I was learning were very much focused on individualism and individuation as the goal with my clients. And it was through that time, as I was building Bronco therapy, as I was in graduate school, that I was like, wait, what about the rest of us?

00:12:23:29 – 00:12:43:18
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
What about those of us who really do want to lean into community care, who have had historical experiences of racism, oppression, and colonization, who don’t feel quite seen in the Western wellness narratives because some of the advice just doesn’t really incorporate our cultural context or beliefs or norms or values. And so there are so many examples of this.

00:12:43:18 – 00:13:05:11
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Right. And and one of them I’ve kind of already talked about is in measurement. And in measurement is where a family might have really loose boundaries. And that is considered bad in Western narratives around wellness. But if we think about it, research actually suggests that immigrant families are enmeshed because it’s a protective factor to save them and to protect them from assimilation and harm from the dominant society.

00:13:05:16 – 00:13:26:05
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Yeah, or you’ll see conversations in the Western world around boundary setting. And it’s all like, be explicit, be direct. Look people in the eye, you know, say what you say what you want, say what you mean. That does not translate for so many of us who grow up in cultures and families where there’s hierarchy, where it’s disrespectful to be that direct, where cross-cultural communication looks different.

00:13:26:10 – 00:13:46:14
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Right? We being direct is not a form of communication we use, and that doesn’t look the same. So in my book, I’m trying to take some of these topics and themes that are so generalized in Western wellness conversations and infusing culture into the conversation. Right? Boundaries might be more about behavioral boundaries for children of immigrants than it is about direct verbal boundaries.

00:13:46:16 – 00:14:05:23
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Even research suggests that self-care and self-esteem for people who grow up in collectivist household, it’s rooted in actually the roles that we play in our folks, in our family, in our community. It’s not about just having a sense of self as an individual. It’s about having a sense of self as an individual who plays roles in these systems that we grow up in.

00:14:05:25 – 00:14:09:11
Dr. Mona
Now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors.

00:14:09:13 – 00:14:27:11
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And so it’s really important to me to kind of infuse culture where I can, because I don’t think that we I think in the Western world, we’re talking about it in a very specific way and over generalizing it and saying, if this is not how you view wellness or how you engage in your relationship or you engage in your family, it’s not right.

00:14:27:13 – 00:14:36:01
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And that’s not true. It really does differ depending on the person, the culture, the body they live in, and all of these other things that I think we need to talk more about.

00:14:36:03 – 00:14:54:14
Dr. Mona
Oh, I, I feel this, you know, I am in this parenting space. You know, my niche is parenting, health, development of children. Right. And having been a child, an immigrant child married to another one, by the way. And then also just hearing a lot of this information, a lot of it doesn’t take into account, again, the cultural aspect behind all of this.

00:14:54:14 – 00:15:13:14
Dr. Mona
You know, even speaking about food. And I use the example, like I asked my mom later in life why she pressured us to eat so much, like there was such a culture of finishing your plate. Right? And many parents may have different reasons, but for our household and a lot of my parents peers, it was a privilege to be able to have food.

00:15:13:14 – 00:15:30:13
Dr. Mona
And also it was a sign of disrespect. If you didn’t finish a plate of food and not so much about, oh, I don’t care for my child and I don’t want them to, you know, not have I want them to be able to listen to their body cues, all of that that wasn’t at the forefront because they are so concerned about the communal aspect.

00:15:30:13 – 00:15:49:15
Dr. Mona
Well, what will people say? It’s polite to eat the food if you don’t eat the food, you know you’re showing disrespect to your grandma or your aunt. And they slaved over this beautiful meal in the kitchen and now you’re not eating it. So I bring that perspective because I know that it’s a reality that so many of us deal with.

00:15:49:15 – 00:16:08:15
Dr. Mona
But sometimes you don’t know why. You know, why did our parents act this way? And so from your work that you’ve seen, you know, I know your book is not only geared towards parents. It can just be an experience for all children of immigrants. But what struggles have you seen immigrant parents have that are unique, maybe even in our generation?

00:16:08:18 – 00:16:16:26
Dr. Mona
Being first or second generation and having that sort of, dichotomy of what they used to know and what they’re trying to do different, if you will.

00:16:16:28 – 00:16:36:08
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Yeah. I mean, first I want to say to your example about the eating the food. Food is such a big thing in a lot of cultural communities, right? It’s an expression of community, of gathering, of care. And going back to my point about how we don’t communicate the same, right? Wellness narratives around communication doesn’t always apply to us and immigrant families.

00:16:36:08 – 00:16:56:24
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And that’s an example of that, because so often I’ll hear from people say, my parents never said I love you. They just cut me fruit, or they gave me food, or they cooked my favorite meal. Yeah. And that is an expression of love. But that communication just looks different. Yeah, it’s not explicit. It’s more implicit. And I think that that’s something, you know, that immigrant parents are also struggling with is okay.

00:16:56:24 – 00:17:30:07
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
If we take immigrant parents who are moving to the West and may not have had access to the same opportunities and resources as our kids are going to have, they’re starting over, right, maybe multiple times in different cultural context. And so on top of that, they are not only navigating a survival mode, but this is compounded by racism, discrimination, a lack of safety, a lack of security, and then even more, they’re leaving behind their own social support, their social capital, language, comfort, all of these things that they had in their home countries, and all while having kids and raising kids in this new culture.

00:17:30:09 – 00:17:51:13
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And so there is a lot of fear, a lot of worry, a lot of anxiety around how their kids are going to maintain their cultural roots or be rooted and where they come from, or it’s a lot of fear about how they’re going to be, quote unquote, to American or start adopting certain values and norms that are considered disrespectful in those immigrant communities.

00:17:51:16 – 00:18:11:16
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And if you take second gen immigrant parents or people who might have been living in the West for a long time, then choose to have kids, they are now navigating an entirely different landscape where they were raised one way. And I’m not saying that that way was necessarily wrong, but it might have had less focus on emotional attunement, on self-actualization, on gentle parenting, whatever you want to call it.

00:18:11:16 – 00:18:30:12
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Right? And now they’re trying to figure out, oh, do I want to raise my kid the same way I was raised? What do I want to carry on with me? How do I want to maintain my roots and culture and traditions while I’m raising my kids in this country that I also identify with? And so they’re now navigating a whole new list of questions and concerns and fears and worries.

00:18:30:18 – 00:18:51:01
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And I hear about this all the time from my clients and in the community. It’s not just first gen immigrant parents who are struggling to raise kids in this new country. Yeah, their kids who are then having kids are also navigating these different sets of scenarios and circumstances. And on top of that, they’re also navigating their parents, grandparents of their children who might have different parenting styles.

00:18:51:06 – 00:19:02:24
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
So there’s lots of things at play here that kind of impacts the way immigrants and their kids are parenting. And that’s not necessarily reflected in a lot of the Western narratives or resources on parenting.

00:19:02:27 – 00:19:19:07
Dr. Mona
Oh, absolutely. Again, that nuance of here’s what the culture is bringing and going back to that communal, what will they say? Like all of that stuff? And I can sit here all I want and look back at my childhood and say, you know, this didn’t work for us. You know, I there’s so many things I did. And I love the example you said about the love language, right?

00:19:19:07 – 00:19:37:19
Dr. Mona
Meaning my parents who show love, but their love was acts of service, right? Meaning cutting fruit. You know, food was like healing and comforting, right? Any time you’re sad, you ate, you were fed something. And I know now I’m like, that’s not a great coping skill to want to go towards food as a form of coping all the time.

00:19:37:19 – 00:19:59:21
Dr. Mona
Yes, we can enjoy things, but it is absolutely important that we recognize that the reality of where we came from, so that we can better have compassion for our parents in a way. And I know you speak about this too, as well in your book, right? Like you give personal stories, you’ve talked and been very open about your childhood and your relationship with your parents as you’ve evolved during this process.

00:19:59:21 – 00:20:14:10
Dr. Mona
Right? What have they said about this sort of journey for you, as you have discovered yourself as well as, you know, help so many others, and you’re obviously talking about your childhood as well and being open because of that whole what will they say concept.

00:20:14:12 – 00:20:36:28
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Yeah, I am so lucky because as soon as I started writing this book, I went to my parents crying and I was like, I don’t know how to write this book. Honestly, without being honest about some of the ways that parent had me. And I have a good relationship with my parents now. And I was like, I don’t want to talk crap about you all, but I also have to, yeah, be honest about what I experienced.

00:20:37:00 – 00:20:52:04
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And I kept being like, I don’t know what the line is, I don’t know what the balance is. And my mom and I had a very difficult conversation where for her, she’s still very much in the beginning. Subscribe to this idea that if you say anything not positive, not outwardly, explicitly positive, then you are talking poorly about us.

00:20:52:06 – 00:21:09:12
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And that was something that was kind of a long process to unpack with her. My dad, however, surprised me and said, you write whatever you have to write. Don’t worry about what I’m going to say. Don’t worry about what I’m going to feel. You need to write what you need to write. And I feel very grateful to have had that blessing.

00:21:09:12 – 00:21:29:05
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
It’s not that I needed it, but the fact that I had it gave me so much more privilege and liberation. To be honest about my story in ways that I don’t know that I would have been. And I think that would have been a disservice to the population, the community, the book, if I wasn’t able to share my story honestly and yeah, I don’t take that lightly.

00:21:29:05 – 00:21:47:12
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
I mean, are they going to read my book from start to finish? Probably not. Do they know some of the things I talk about in the book? Yes, I’ve been very honest about it. And I think that they are just kind of like, I don’t think we need to read it, but we support you in this, and we are witnessing and observing how this is important work that is helping people and through writing this book.

00:21:47:12 – 00:22:07:26
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Right. I mean, if nothing happens to this book and it was just the process of me writing it from start to finish, and going through those three years, I have healed so much. Moana like I, I can’t stress it. The process of writing this book healed so many parts of younger me. My relationship with my parents, my relationship with my siblings, my relationship with myself.

00:22:08:03 – 00:22:36:14
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
I was able to excavate so many of those wounds and really revisit certain experiences in my life, interrogate them, be honest with myself about them, and I just feel, yeah, it was just it’s really special to get to this point and know that my parents support me, even though they know that it’s not all good. And the thing I like to tell people is, and especially if any immigrant parents or parents read this book, this book is not about immigrant parents being bad or wrong or, you know, not good.

00:22:36:14 – 00:22:58:11
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
It’s that’s not the point of my book. If you read my book from start to finish, it will start because it is part memoir with my younger life. And it wasn’t a good relationship I had with my parents. But if you read the book through, you will see how we have worked really hard. I have worked really hard to create an ever evolving relationship with my parents and teach them things along the way, and they teach me things along the way.

00:22:58:14 – 00:23:23:29
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And it’s a messy, complicated reality. There’s so much nuance in this book. It’s not just I’m right there wrong. My healing is better than their healing. I don’t love my parents. It’s none of that. It’s so much more complicated. So many things can be true at the same time. I can love my parents fiercely, and they can love me fiercely, and we can still have things in our relationship that need to be healed, or things that they have done as parents that weren’t super great or had an impact on me.

00:23:24:00 – 00:23:48:02
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Right? All of these things can be true at the same time, and not every immigrant parent is going to be the same. I try to have empathy and compassion for what I don’t know what my parents went through my own role in our relationship, and I hope that if anyone reads this book or is a parent, I hope that if they feel triggered by anything I say or activated by anything I say, I hope they’ll take that as an invitation to pause and reflect.

00:23:48:04 – 00:24:09:12
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Why is this activating for me? Why do I feel I need to get defensive and protective when I read these certain passages or stories? Because if anything, it might be a reflection of what’s happening in your own life and something else that needs to be healed for you rather than me. A projection onto me being like, oh, I think immigrant parents aren’t good, because that’s not at all at all what my book is about.

00:24:09:15 – 00:24:27:15
Dr. Mona
Now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors. Yeah, and that’s why I love the book. You know, because my husband and I are the same. And when we look back and think about the things that were done that were not serving us well, right, obviously that we didn’t really realize it until we became adults and parents ourselves when we were like,

00:24:27:17 – 00:24:43:15
Dr. Mona
I know when my parents used to do that, but it doesn’t mean that they didn’t do things that were so amazing for us. Right? And that’s why we have a relationship with both sets of parents. But we personally are both healing from a lot of trauma, childhood trauma. That’s the term you want to use because it is seeing a therapist because of it.

00:24:43:15 – 00:25:01:16
Dr. Mona
And through the therapy process, for ourselves included, we have created more compassion for them, not dismissive of the things that were done. And it sounds like you did the same, but more so. Wow. I actually can see why you did that. There’s no excuse for it now. But we can’t go back. We can’t go back 20, 30 years from now.

00:25:01:16 – 00:25:25:00
Dr. Mona
And what you did on that day and how you treated me. But what we can say is how can we rebuild this? And I think your book is such a great example of repairing, you know, how can we repair relationships that may look different as we become adults? Especially when we become parents ourselves, because a lot of those wounds show up, like you said, in very different ways, you know, and our how we parent, how we approach relationship with our peers.

00:25:25:06 – 00:25:33:16
Dr. Mona
If we have a lot of that unprocessed, you know, trauma or unprocessed, this didn’t really work for me. The not the not good enough stuff from our childhood.

00:25:33:18 – 00:25:56:21
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Yeah, exactly. I mean, the book drives this point home and I will say it here. It’s never about perfection in our relationships. It’s about being present. It’s about being intentional, about being mindful. It’s, you know, the whole book and my whole life story with my parents have been constant invitations and reminders to slow down, to reevaluate, to repair, to figure out, you know, to meet each other where we are.

00:25:56:21 – 00:26:21:22
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Sometimes I do more of that work, and sometimes I feel very grateful my parents will meet me where I need them to meet me, and that it’s just an it’s an ongoing process and journey. This book would have been very different if I had written it ten years ago, right? I wouldn’t have been where I am today, where I have been able to reflect, go through my therapy process, do some of the healing work to get to a place where I can say this is not about, you know, bashing my parents as parents.

00:26:21:22 – 00:26:39:15
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
It’s about recognizing who they were as parents, who they are as people that aren’t just my parents, what they’ve lived through, how that’s impacted me, and how I can move forward and repair and build my own sense of self and my, and the life and relationships that feel good and meaningful to me. Because it’s not about cutting them out.

00:26:39:15 – 00:26:51:25
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
It’s not about, you know, calling people toxic. It’s about just acknowledging where people are when things happened and what they lived through, and whether or not you want to do the work to maintain those relationships and move forward.

00:26:51:27 – 00:27:21:08
Dr. Mona
Yeah. You know, I think this is such an important conversation because I know with a lot of therapy accounts online that may be more Eurocentric. There is a lot of conversation around the lack of forgiveness perspective, you know, and I I’m not saying that we should forgive people for the harmful things that they did, but there is a level of and my husband and I agree with this and that we can look at a perspective and say, look, this issue or what they did was not right, but the forgiveness is not because I’m just going to let it go.

00:27:21:08 – 00:27:39:13
Dr. Mona
The forgiveness is like I need to move forward and I need to heal. And adding that perspective can be very healing. And I feel like sometimes I’m following accounts and I’ve had to unfollow. They’re like, we should never forgive. Forgiveness is not part of the equation. And a lot of the commentary is about estrangement. You know how estrangement is the answer.

00:27:39:13 – 00:28:00:03
Dr. Mona
And I understand that there becomes a limit where you have two strings yourself, and I’m going to it’s probably the first time I’ve ever seen this. My sister, who is one of my best friends, is estranged from her family, and it took a lot for me to understand why she would do that, you know, and I say that because she made the decision to a stranger herself.

00:28:00:05 – 00:28:15:12
Dr. Mona
We haven’t spoken to her in three years now. And that is huge, because she used to be a really big part of our life. And, you know, through this whole my own therapy process and through understanding, one of the biggest things is like, I want to be able to talk to her, to just learn more about what the why.

00:28:15:14 – 00:28:40:07
Dr. Mona
And when I see accounts, talk about how strange is probably going to be the answer, and that’s what you need to do. I’m like, yes, but maybe there’s another perspective here. Maybe there’s a is it possible for to grow with my parent if they’re willing to? I understand there has to be a willingness there, but to really learn their perspective and grow and be a part of that and not say, okay, I don’t ever want to talk to you because that that is a whole thing in itself.

00:28:40:07 – 00:28:47:28
Dr. Mona
You know, the whole estrangement of a lot of I know a lot of families who deal with that, that aren’t really forthcoming about that information.

00:28:48:00 – 00:29:12:07
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, it’s really powerful. And I think, like you said, estrangement isn’t always the answer. And for some people it is the only answer they know or have access to to protect themselves. And with siblings, it’s even more interesting because I’ve had this conversation with my own siblings about how I might have a different level of tolerance for some of my parents behaviors or actions or words or whatever than they do, and vice versa.

00:29:12:08 – 00:29:30:18
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Right? We all kind of have, in a family system, our own tolerance, our own relationship with each other. Member. It looks different, it feels different. And we decide for, you know, there is a level of agency in choosing estrangement. And it hurts a lot of people in the family, and it might be the only thing someone knows how to do.

00:29:30:18 – 00:29:49:22
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And it’s not the answer all the time, right? All of these things can be true at the same time. I feel like it depends on who you ask. It depends on the situation. You know nothing in my book is, and I know that this is not at all what you’re suggesting, but just to drive the point home, nothing in my book is about maintaining levels of abuse or correct harm in relationships, and just maintaining them.

00:29:49:22 – 00:30:10:20
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
That’s not it. But in Eurocentric narratives of wellness, it’s like, oh, they’re not listening to you and they don’t respect you. You should cut them out. So it’s either of those? Yes. What is that? What is that messy, complicated middle? And how do we ask ourselves certain questions that are culturally apt to decide for ourselves which way we want to go and how we want to move forward, and how we want to maintain these relationships?

00:30:10:23 – 00:30:27:29
Dr. Mona
Well, yeah. I mean, because a lot of the conversations come around boundaries with grandparents. You know, you alluded to that when you’re finally starting to parent and the grandparents are involved and they may have different parenting strategies, opinions, words that come out. And, you know, a lot of people will say, well, then just don’t talk to them like don’t have them over.

00:30:27:29 – 00:30:53:02
Dr. Mona
But in a lot of us who were raised in this community aspect, that is very hard to do, even if we know that, okay, this isn’t sitting well. It’s a really hard thing to do. When you were raised for 30 plus years in this sort of know, the structure here is that the grandparents are involved. So how am I now going to keep them involved, set boundaries, not completely excommunicate them from my life or my child’s life.

00:30:53:08 – 00:31:09:12
Dr. Mona
And it’s been a struggle for both me and my husband going through our own trauma work and still continue to have a, I would say, a good relationship with our parents. It’s not the most perfect, but I think also managing expectations around what is the perfect relationship with parents, you know, and grandparents.

00:31:09:12 – 00:31:30:26
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Well, yeah. What if I mean exactly what is it? I it differs from person to person. And that’s a cultural narrative that is so different from the Western world. Right? I do this work with my clients all the time where I’m a couples therapist and I work with intercultural interracial couples and sometimes the person who comes from a collectivist culture is like, oh, you know, my partner doesn’t understand that.

00:31:30:28 – 00:31:52:09
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
When we got married, they entered our family unit, and that included my parents and my siblings and their families. Whereas in the Western world, when you get married now you’re starting your own family and it’s almost like you’re separating these family systems. But that’s not how we view it. And a lot of immigrant families or immigrant cultures, we’re all one big family, and we all still want to maintain those bonds, but we’re adding people to the mix and we’re trying to figure out how to navigate this.

00:31:52:09 – 00:32:09:28
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
We have different parenting styles. We have different personalities, behaviors, all of these things. And it just becomes that much more complicated to figure out what is healthy, what is okay. Right. It’s not about normal. Normal is relative. Depending on who you ask, it’s what feels okay. What am I okay with? What am I willing to do? How am I willing to engage in this?

00:32:10:05 – 00:32:26:24
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
How do I want to maintain these bonds if I do? And it’s lots of these questions of just having to keep rooting into what is important to you, what you’re willing to tolerate, what you’re not willing to tolerate, and then you can decide and make decisions. It’s not just as easy as don’t forgive, don’t talk, don’t get this right.

00:32:26:25 – 00:32:30:07
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
That’s just not that’s not accurate for so many of us.

00:32:30:14 – 00:32:48:06
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And as we know, there’s just so much that what will people say. You know, like in terms of also just if you make that decision that I want to not talk to this family or I do want to, there’s a lot of judgment and lack of understanding. And even, you know, with my own personal example of my sister, it was hard initially to understand why she would want to make that decision.

00:32:48:06 – 00:33:05:29
Dr. Mona
But I started to just say, you know what? This is something that she needed to do, even though that’s not something that’s very common in Indian households. Right? I mean, even if you have issues, you just stick with it. I mean, marriage is included, right? You don’t divorce, you don’t stop relationships. But, you know, I took it as you know, what, she needs to do this.

00:33:06:03 – 00:33:23:17
Dr. Mona
And as hard as it is for me and, you know, obviously my parents too, but my mom and myself included, it is something that just adding that perspective of, okay, everyone’s making their choices. We can’t get into anyone’s brain, but having a little more compassion. And again, I love your book because you are speaking to the other’s perspective.

00:33:23:17 – 00:33:33:06
Dr. Mona
That’s not always there, which is that collectivist culture, which I just think is so great. What would be the final advice you’d have for an immigrant parent who may pick up your book?

00:33:33:09 – 00:33:56:27
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
I think it’s just, you know, have nuance and anything that feels negative or activating in the book or in general, when you get feedback may not be a bad thing. It’s an invitation, like I said, to reflect more deeply, to think more deeply if you’re willing. Right? Relationships are a two way street, and I know in hierarchal families and immigrant families, it never feels that way.

00:33:56:27 – 00:34:25:00
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
It feels unit directional, one way up towards elders, towards, you know, respect that way. And I understand that. And there are small micro changes of how you can learn. But I think what I’m trying to say is that if an immigrant parent is willing to engage with their kids in the way that a kid might be trying to have different types of conversations or change something that’s been the norm or something like that, it’s actually an invitation to deepen the relationship with your kid.

00:34:25:02 – 00:34:42:20
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
It’s not a sign that you’re a bad parent. It’s not trashing you. It’s not saying you don’t know something. It’s not meant to make you feel bad. Yeah, it’s an invitation to actually deepen that relationship. I’ve been able to learn so much more about my parents, and they’ve been able to learn so much more about me, because we’ve both been willing to meet each other where we are.

00:34:42:26 – 00:34:58:29
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
And I think that’s the beautiful thing, is that when you can let go of the ego and put aside what it makes you feel about what you did or what you’re doing, it’s actually a vulnerable invitation to deepen that connection with someone you love. And there’s nothing like that.

00:34:59:02 – 00:35:18:23
Dr. Mona
So powerful. And you said it already. Like the fact that your dad was like, I want you to do this for you. What a supportive father of a writer, right? Because with writing, I mean, the best writing I know for me also comes from personal experience. And just tying that into whatever it is you’re trying to teach and that emotion, that relatability, is going to help so many people.

00:35:18:26 – 00:35:32:16
Dr. Mona
Thank you so much for joining me today. This is a great conversation and I cannot wait to read the book. I am so excited that it’s out. Let people know where they can buy the book, read more about it, or find out more information about it, and also where to stay connected with you.

00:35:32:19 – 00:35:53:15
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Yeah, so people can connect with me on Instagram at Brown Girl Therapy. And the link in that bio or on my website. So hedge core Qualcomm, you can find all of the upcoming events that I’m going to be doing on tour. You can find, community Resources. You can find more about the book, plus links for international edition signed copies if you want to purchase that.

00:35:53:17 – 00:36:05:01
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Or you can just buy the book anywhere you like to buy your books or write your books. It should be available. And if it’s not, I encourage you to ask so that your local bookstore or library will purchase it and have it in store for other people to read.

00:36:05:03 – 00:36:22:07
Dr. Mona
Yes, I really hope you do. And again, I hope you read this book, even if you are not in a culture like we’re talking about, right? Because like I said, we can learn so much from just learning other perspective. You are going to encounter people in your life that may be different than you, and it’s just so important that we understand where we all came from.

00:36:22:11 – 00:36:25:00
Dr. Mona
So thank you again for joining me today.

00:36:25:03 – 00:36:27:00
Sahaj Kaur Kohli
Thank you so much for having me. This was great.

00:36:27:03 – 00:36:43:17
Dr. Mona
Yeah, it was wonderful. And for everyone tuning in, I hope you check out her book. If not, make sure you go on to her social because it’s going to inspire you to want to read the book. And I will be linking all of that to my show notes. But the most important thing is, if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review rating.

00:36:43:21 – 00:36:57:20
Dr. Mona
Share this episode and the link on your social stories. Tag Brown Girl therapy star talks. So we know that you love this conversation, and I cannot wait for more people to read her book. And I cannot wait to chat with another guest next time on this show.