In this episode I am talking to Dr. Jenicka, a Neuropsychologist & Clinical Scientist who made it her mission to help moms with evidence-based mental health and toddler tips. Today we are discussing:

• Different reward systems
• Why do reward systems have such a bad reputation
• The benefits of using reward systems
• How can a reward system work for something like potty training

Find Dr. Jenicka on Instagram @drjenicka.

00;00;01;03 – 00;00;19;06

Dr. Jenicka

So I just potty trained my toddler. She was two and a half, and we had been doing sort of a gentle potty training approach, which really, when I say gentle in this context, I mean they child led approach. So basically the child is dictating if and when they are going, using, producing in the potty, that sort of thing.

 

00;00;19;09 – 00;00;43;17

Dr. Mona

Welcome back to the PedsDocTalk podcast. I am excited to welcome Doctor Jenicka, who is a pediatric neuropsychologist. You can find her on Instagram at doctor Dr. Mona. And she is joining me today to talk about why reward systems get a bad rap, especially on social media. Thank you for joining me today, Doctor Jenicka.

 

00;00;43;19 – 00;00;53;14

Dr. Jenicka

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate the opportunity to, hopefully debunk some of these popular sort of parenting myths we’re seeing propagated all over social media.

 

00;00;53;16 – 00;01;00;05

Dr. Mona

Yes. And tell me more about yourself, what you do to help families and also why you started your Instagram account.

 

00;01;00;08 – 00;01;31;16

Dr. Jenicka

Yeah. So I am a trained pediatric neuropsychologist, which means that I got extra training after my doctorate and the assessment and diagnosis of various neurodevelopmental conditions. So things like autism, ADHD, other things like that with, young children. And then I also do therapy across the lifespan. So adults through, you know, the little guys. And so before the pandemic, actually, I ended up getting into more adult research.

 

00;01;31;16 – 00;01;48;09

Dr. Jenicka

So I have not been doing my clinical work so much. And there is this huge, immense need. And I still is getting calls all throughout the pandemic. So I figured, you know what? Let me start up an Instagram page where I can provide, you know, some sort of free psychoeducation session for parents because there’s just such a huge need.

 

00;01;48;16 – 00;02;06;07

Dr. Jenicka

And then I started noticing how much parenting misinformation and psychology misinformation there is online. So that became, you know, sort of a big passion of mine to sort of debunk some of these things that are not based on science, or various recommendations that are just popular, but they don’t really have much of an evidence base.

 

00;02;06;10 – 00;02;29;21

Dr. Mona

And I think it’s so important that we’re talking about these things, especially the misinformation in parenting and this topic of reward systems, because then it can make parents. And I’ve seen this happen, feel like, well, that was working for us. Did I just damage my child or nothing else is working. And I heard about reward systems, and people are telling me that it’s going to damage my kid, but it does seem to work for people.

 

00;02;29;21 – 00;02;54;16

Dr. Mona

Or it may work for my kids. So I think it’s so important from the get go that people listening understand that there is so much nuance in parenting in terms of when we say these things. Yes, we know from a psychological, neuropsychological standpoint that there’s certain things that are not great, like slapping, hitting, abuse. We know that. I mean, there’s things that we’re not fans of, but when you look at reward systems, why do you think they get a bad rep?

 

00;02;54;16 – 00;03;03;29

Dr. Mona

Like, what are people saying that are not so great about them? And then, of course, I’m going to ask the alternative, like what do you see benefits for? But let’s start with why do you think they’re getting a bad rep.

 

00;03;04;01 – 00;03;28;15

Dr. Jenicka

Yeah. So I think what has sort of happened is that there’s a proliferation of these different sort of parenting, quote unquote, expert accounts on social media, and these are not necessarily individuals who have had training or experience with kids beyond, you know, their own parenting experience, self-help books, things like that. Or, you know, they were maybe in early childhood education and Montessori school teachers, things like that.

 

00;03;28;18 – 00;03;57;21

Dr. Jenicka

But the main issue is that when it comes to rewards and reinforcement, there was some research that started going on back in, like the 70s, in the 80s when the behaviorist school of psychology was really sort of coming to the forefront. And there were some studies that noticed that when you praised kids or gave them tangible rewards for doing things that might either increase or decrease the likelihood that they would then do those things on their own.

 

00;03;57;24 – 00;04;31;28

Dr. Jenicka

And so there is a lot of parenting sort of experts who overgeneralize the research and said, oh, all praise and all rewards are bad. They decrease intrinsic motivation. So like, these are the people like Alfie Cohn and, you know, other theorists who sort of went beyond what the research actually said because the research has actually demonstrated and this is consistent research findings, mind you, over decades now that have been well replicated, randomized controlled trials, even where they would randomly assign kids to either conditions, where they’re getting praised or rewarded for doing things or not, and varying the types of things that they’re doing.

 

00;04;32;01 – 00;05;04;21

Dr. Jenicka

And there’s actually a lot of nuance there. And that’s really what the social media is missing, because the research actually shows that you’re only going to decrease the internal intrinsic motivation for things. If you’re rewarding something that kids are already enjoying and already like doing, or things that are really attention grabbing for them, whereas the research actually showed that for things that are more aversive or less pleasant, or things that they’re struggling to learn, or things that aren’t as captivating for them, that actually increases the likelihood that they’re going to go do those things.

 

00;05;04;25 – 00;05;28;00

Dr. Jenicka

So unfortunately, the actual research has gotten overgeneralize to the point where people think that all rewards, all praise are bad. It decreases intrinsic motivation, when in fact most of the things that we are going to be rewarding or praising kids for, which are generally those things that they aren’t already doing or enjoying, but those harder things to do, like sharing or trying a food that they don’t like or things like that.

 

00;05;28;14 – 00;05;35;14

Dr. Jenicka

Those are the exact situations where rewards and praise can actually be helpful, but that nuance is totally missed on social media a lot of the time.

 

00;05;35;17 – 00;05;52;13

Dr. Mona

Yeah, and I think there absolutely is an understanding that you can implement a reward system, but at the same time teach your child that intrinsic motivation, growth mindset, all the things that I think are really important. I agree with you like that. I want to do this out of my own volition. That’s kind of what we’re talking about with this intrinsic motivation, right?

 

00;05;52;13 – 00;06;08;17

Dr. Mona

That I’m doing this because I want to do it versus an external validation, which is like, I’m doing this because it makes my mommy proud, right? And you’re right. Like I was like, I think we’re going to talk about potty training. Like my child getting an M&M for sitting on the poop is not going to make him when he’s 20 year old.

 

00;06;08;20 – 00;06;25;20

Dr. Mona

One an M&M when he sits on the poop. All right, let’s let’s be honest. Exactly like I think we need to we need to really understand the big picture here, that there is some things that I don’t want to always give reward systems for. But potty training is going to be one of our biggest examples, that it can work for children to use a reward system.

 

00;06;25;20 – 00;06;48;29

Dr. Mona

So we’ll talk about that. But it can be beneficial and it’s not going to lead to a lifelong of they’re going to feel like they always need external validation for that action or everything in their lives. Right? I think exactly, I get it, I get it that I don’t want to do reward systems for everything for a child that, oh, you got a gold star because you, you know, you walk down the stairs and you did this and this and you put this away.

 

00;06;48;29 – 00;07;02;11

Dr. Mona

But it’s about a parent saying, when do I want to use these reward systems? And maybe this is going to work for a task driven thing like potty training, as an example. So how do you get your and see the benefits?

 

00;07;02;14 – 00;07;20;04

Dr. Jenicka

You’re hitting the nail on the head there. So with most things in parenting, especially most parenting practices that are either promoted to vilified on social media, it’s really all about balance because again, the nuance is missed. And there are some times when this can be, you know, very helpful and very beneficial and other times where it’s, you know, not so much.

 

00;07;20;06 – 00;07;45;05

Dr. Jenicka

And I think that that really, you know, finding that balance as a parent and identifying the different things that maybe you do want to reinforce and reward. Because when we’re talking about rewards, we’re really actually talking about the principle of reinforcement. So everything that happens, it’s a behavior. There’s something that happens before and after that. And what happens after a behavior is either going to determine if that behavior is going to happen more or less frequently.

 

00;07;45;05 – 00;08;14;23

Dr. Jenicka

So typically if you are rewarding something or reinforcing something, there’s all different types of reinforcement, which I won’t get into because that’s, you know, a little to behaviorally nerdy, but, the reward sort of things usually will increase the frequency of that behavior. So what happens is if you reward something, it reinforce forces. It makes it more likely to happen again in the future, which we don’t really talk much about punishment and things like that, but that would, you know, have the opposite effect, essentially.

 

00;08;15;21 – 00;08;40;02

Dr. Jenicka

So, you know, it’s one of those things where there are definitely benefits and definitely reasons why you would want to use rewards and reinforcement both throughout the day and also in sort of special circumstance senses. So I really like to use tangible rewards. So when I talk about tangibles we’re talking about things like toys, prizes, treats or candy, access to screen time.

 

00;08;40;04 – 00;08;57;13

Dr. Jenicka

You know, those are really sort of tangibles. But then there’s also other types of rewards that people kind of don’t think about as much that are often my go to for throughout the day, which would be 1 to 1 attention, like having that special one on one time. That is actually very reinforcing and rewarding for most kids. They want our attention.

 

00;08;57;18 – 00;09;14;06

Dr. Jenicka

They want us to play with them and talk with them, read with them, and that can be a very potent reward and reinforce or get something that most of us are already doing throughout the day as well. So without even noticing you’re doing it, you’re actually reinforcing and rewarding a lot of behavior just by giving, you know, your undivided attention to a child.

 

00;09;14;08 – 00;09;40;09

Dr. Jenicka

And then there’s obvious praise, which is a verbal reinforcement as well. But when we talk about reward systems, we’re really usually talking more about including some of those tangibles. So if we like sticker chart money is actually, universal reinforcer because you can buy anything you want with money. So all of us adults are also having reward systems if you’re working for money every day, pretty much because most of us are not working for free.

 

00;09;40;12 – 00;10;00;27

Dr. Jenicka

Right. So, you know, it’s something that really is embedded throughout our lives, and it’s not necessarily a bad thing to get kids familiar with this from a young age, because at some point and there’s also, you know, controversy about this, you might want to give them an allowance for doing chores or things like that when they get older, which again, is technically rewards and reinforcement as well.

 

00;10;00;29 – 00;10;21;28

Dr. Mona

So I wanted to talk about reward systems as it would relate to something like potty training. We mentioned that briefly already, and at the time of this recording, you have already potty trained your daughter, correct? Yes, some sort of reward system, but not even just from your personal experience. But how can something like potty training? How can you use a reward system as an example?

 

00;10;22;11 – 00;10;23;19

Dr. Mona

To make that happen?

 

00;10;23;22 – 00;10;51;06

Dr. Jenicka

So reward systems are a great way to promote learning, something that might not come naturally. So I just potty trained my toddler. She was two and a half, and we had been doing sort of a gentle potty training approach, which really, when I say gentle in this context, it means a child led approach. Semantically, the child is dictating if and when they are going shitting, using, producing in the potty, that sort of thing.

 

00;10;51;06 – 00;11;08;01

Dr. Jenicka

And we did that since she turned two. So we gave that a good six months, and she just was not able to make the connection between the sitting on the potty and actually producing and going and noticing all the sensations in your body when you have to go to the bathroom. She couldn’t quite figure that out with less structured approach.

 

00;11;08;03 – 00;11;26;24

Dr. Jenicka

So, you know, I had to sort of change up what I was doing. And I actually I documented this all on my Instagram accounts. I figured, hey, you know what? If other people want to know about, you know, what a psychologist does to potty train their kid? This is exactly the sort of process that I use as having a reward system, because it gets the ball rolling.

 

00;11;27;00 – 00;11;46;23

Dr. Jenicka

And the most important thing that I want to say about the reward system is that you don’t have to use them as an item, like you’re not going to be using this for days, weeks, years. It’s really something to build the behavioral and learning momentum to get the ball rolling. And then there’s always the intention of actually fading out and thinning the reinforcement.

 

00;11;46;23 – 00;12;10;13

Dr. Jenicka

So, doing it less frequently, shifting from sort of tangible reinforcers and rewards to more natural reinforcers, in other words, like praise or attention or one on one time. So in terms of the potty training specifically, I call it a potty training boot camp. But the boot camp part is really just for the parents. It’s more of a potty party for the kids, you know, it’s a very fun and rewarding sort of process for them.

 

00;12;10;13 – 00;12;38;16

Dr. Jenicka

But, you know, the parents really have to be on point because you’re kind of driving the bus, so to speak, here. And so what I did for that was, you know, she is somebody who is highly motivated by, you know, sweets and treats and new toys and things like that. So what I did was I went out and preparation for potty training, and I got a variety of different little toys and candies and things that I thought that she would enjoy, and I put them all in a clear box.

 

00;12;38;19 – 00;12;59;03

Dr. Jenicka

The boxes, you know, out of you, out of sight. Until, you know, starting up the potty training and the reason why I put those all in a box was because it’s a good visual aid to sort of help kids understand, hey, when the box is empty, that means there’s no more prizes for toy potty, right? It’s like a natural sort of cue that, you know, this stage is sort of done.

 

00;12;59;06 – 00;13;24;15

Dr. Jenicka

And then so what I essentially did was, I just sort of went through and, you know, we had a timer on and the preparation work is actually much harder for the potty training than the actual potty training. So, like, you have to sort of really make note of when they usually are going to the bathroom, how long they stay dry after drinking, because that’s going to sort of dictate, you know, how you’re going to approach it and how frequently you’re going to have to sort of bring them to the potty.

 

00;13;24;15 – 00;13;51;20

Dr. Jenicka

But then what I was doing was I was really encouraging food intake. We were having a party party in the kitchen where we brought a bunch of her toys, and we were playing a bottomless approach. So that way I would put the timer on and when the timer would go off, okay, it’s time to set. We had a special box of regular toys that she enjoys playing with that I would, you know, give to her while she was sitting or even not on my phone, like letting her watch some, you know, Cocomelon or whatever other shows she likes.

 

00;13;51;23 – 00;14;09;17

Dr. Jenicka

You just have to catch them. One when they go and then, oh, you know, you did so great. We did peer poop in the potty. Let’s go pick a prize and take your girl over to that prize box and letting her pick a prize. And so, you know, she learned very quickly that, oh, this is what it means to go to use the bathroom.

 

00;14;09;19 – 00;14;29;01

Dr. Jenicka

And she was able to connect that a lot faster because of the rewards involved, because it strengthen and that understanding of what was going on. And that was something that we wanted more of. And it got to the point where, I mean, we potty trained her in three days with this approach. And, you know, she did great, you know, minimal accident.

 

00;14;29;03 – 00;15;00;06

Dr. Jenicka

And, you know, I didn’t even have to, you know, use the rewards. As much as I thought I was going to have to use them. So I was actually able to shift a bit quicker than I expected away from the prizes and things like that. And at some point I also shifted around day 2 or 3 from praising her for actually, you know, a results oriented sort of process, you know, yay, you did peepee in the potty, that sort of thing, too, more of a process oriented sort of praise, where, oh, you know, you’re trying so hard to, you know, use the potty.

 

00;15;00;06 – 00;15;22;24

Dr. Jenicka

You’re working so hard and noticing what your body’s telling you, more of a process sort of approach, because there is different research on the effectiveness of different types of praise. So you generally want to praise not necessarily the outcomes or personal attributes, like you’re so smart or you’re so this but more the process, right? The effort involved in things like that can be actually more effective.

 

00;15;22;27 – 00;15;30;29

Dr. Mona

But you bridged obviously that process, you know, recognizing the process that she was doing. But you also had the reward system as well at the same time.

 

00;15;30;29 – 00;15;38;10

Dr. Jenicka

Yep. So to get that ball rolling the first day, every time she went, even if it was just a little bit because, you know, sometimes they don’t fully.

 

00;15;38;10 – 00;15;39;04

Dr. Mona

Explain.

 

00;15;39;07 – 00;15;55;29

Dr. Jenicka

Or, you know, when they’re learning. Any time she actually produced in the potty, I would let her pick a prize from the prize box that very first day. And then the next day, in the morning, I would start off with her, and anytime she would go in the morning, I would give it to her and then getting that ball rolling for her.

 

00;15;56;01 – 00;16;12;17

Dr. Jenicka

And then I found that she didn’t necessarily always need the tangible after that, but I would always do it in the morning to get the ball rolling, and then if she requested it, I would give it to her, or if she seemed like she was a little bit more hesitant or things like that, I would make sure to give her access to the prize box.

 

00;16;12;19 – 00;16;43;14

Dr. Jenicka

But after that first day, if she was only doing like a little bit in the potty, I would praise her for that. But I wasn’t going to give her access to the prize box unless she kind of fully voided or dmed and things like that. That’s actually a concept called differential reinforcement. So again, not to get overly nerdy here, but I was essentially saving like the really special stuff for when she fully went and sort of, slightly less, rewarding, but still rewarding tangibles or praise her naturally going and things like that.

 

00;16;43;14 – 00;17;03;12

Dr. Jenicka

So definitely, altered my approach a bit. And then after day three, I mean, she got it by day three, I think I only gave her the reward box, like a couple of times a day, always in the morning to get the ball rolling and get that momentum going. And then after that, I really only gave it to her occasionally, like every now and then or if she requested it.

 

00;17;03;12 – 00;17;24;23

Dr. Jenicka

And she understood also that once the prize box was empty, the prizes are done. So for me, it was actually a pretty natural sort of, what behaviors call like sort of fitting the schedule of reinforcement, which is you’re reinforcing and rewarding less frequently and then sort of fading out the need for reinforcement completely. So, you know, I still if she gets excited about using the potty, I get excited with her.

 

00;17;24;23 – 00;17;42;19

Dr. Jenicka

And I praise you for that. Again, mostly for sort of process and effort as opposed to results. So it’s not like I remove I removed all rewards completely. It’s just it’s that you kind of shift from these tangible reinforcers and rewards to more natural sort of things that we do for our kids without even realizing it sometimes.

 

00;17;42;21 – 00;17;58;23

Dr. Mona

Well, I love what you said about the concept of phasing it out, right? Because that’s how we were talking about earlier, is how you can kind of bridge the reward system with obviously, that phrasing of the process. Does your daughter, now that she went through that potty training, does she ever ask for a reward anymore? That’s what we were mentioning earlier.

 

00;17;58;23 – 00;17;59;24

Dr. Mona

She does not. Right?

 

00;17;59;26 – 00;18;22;10

Dr. Jenicka

Nope. She, she got it once. The box was empty and it was done. She didn’t ask for the prizes anymore, and it was actually more reinforcing for her to realize that she was doing, you know, something that the big kids do. Right, doing that on her own. So I do think that it actually improved her intrinsic motivation there because she really wanted to go on her own and, you know, found it rewarding just going even without the prizes.

 

00;18;22;10 – 00;18;24;03

Dr. Jenicka

So didn’t really need even.

 

00;18;24;05 – 00;18;40;25

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And like you said, it’s like getting the ball rolling to get that motivation which can then be intrinsic. And that’s what I think the big message was here is that although this may seem like you are giving them a reward, which you are, I mean, I am in the same boat as you in that we are doing the more quote unquote gentle approach.

 

00;18;40;25 – 00;18;55;19

Dr. Mona

And when Ryan turns 30 months, so like two and a half or a little over that, we’re actually gonna be moving. So when we’re in a new home, we’re going to actually do a similar to what you’re doing, because I agree, I love it. And Ryan will respond very well to a reward like I know it with potty training.

 

00;18;55;19 – 00;19;21;20

Dr. Mona

Like he is ready. Like I know that that’s also what’s going to work for my child. And that’s why we’re having this conversation, is that I want people listening to know that if they’ve been told that you have to do this gentle approach, that’s amazing that you tried that, but you have to also understand that there are other methods that can still lead to a child who poops on the potty, who still understands the process, who isn’t spoiled, who is an X, Y, and Z, and it’s all about how you approach it.

 

00;19;21;24 – 00;19;39;24

Dr. Mona

Yeah, my next question for you has to do with when would you say is the best age or developmental activity that a child’s doing or developmental milestone, if you will, that you can say that you know what? Now a reward system can be implemented because of course rewards systems aren’t really going to work for like a younger toddler, like a one year old.

 

00;19;39;24 – 00;19;44;23

Dr. Mona

But is there an age or developmental milestone that you would say, hey, why don’t you go ahead and try this?

 

00;19;44;25 – 00;20;08;09

Dr. Jenicka

It’s so interesting because this is a time frame thing is also a very cultural, sort of experience. So in much of the developing world, they actually use elimination communication from when the child is an infant. So it is an adult led sort of approach to, potty training where they recognize and learn the signs right before they’re going to go, and then they just hold them over the potty or the place where they go right before.

 

00;20;08;09 – 00;20;40;19

Dr. Jenicka

And so there’s actually been, a push for more elimination communication training elsewhere because it’s, you know, greener. You don’t use diapers, that sort of thing. And kids will often get potty trained sooner that way. But that’s not the cultural norm here in the United States. So when I think of potty training and, how old you need to be to do that, the general sort of rule of thumb has been, you can start potty training around age two, and kids are expected to be dry overnight by around age five.

 

00;20;40;21 – 00;21;05;23

Dr. Jenicka

Now, this is also something where I think the individual child really needs to be taken into account for here. So, what my little one probably ready for potty training right at H2? Yeah, I think she probably was, because there are some prerequisite skills that I always recommend before trying to implement potty training. So, you know, if and mainly it’s for if your child is not doing these things.

 

00;21;05;23 – 00;21;30;12

Dr. Jenicka

And I would say it’s best to hold off on potty training. So I actually had done a post, a real on like the signs that your child is not ready for potty training and you know, if they don’t have interest in using the potty. So most kids will be interested, they see you going. I mean, if if you’re if you’re so lucky that you don’t have, a company in the bathroom with you as a mom, you know, that’s a great thing to do.

 

00;21;30;12 – 00;21;51;01

Dr. Jenicka

But, most kids will show some sort of interest in using the potty. Like, what are you doing? What’s going on in there? That sort of thing. Also, by age two, most kids will have a longer time that they’re able to stay dry for, so they’re not constantly wet. You do have some kids who will still be constantly wet, like every time you check their diaper, it seems like they’re wet.

 

00;21;51;10 – 00;22;12;06

Dr. Jenicka

Or they’re, you know, voiding just a little bit throughout the day. And you really need to be able to stay dry for at least an hour or two, between, diaper changes for them to be ready for potty training, at least to ensure success. Potty training. The other thing is that most kids will sort of, indicate to you in some way if they are wet.

 

00;22;12;06 – 00;22;30;11

Dr. Jenicka

So for some kids, they start patting at their diaper or vocalizing, or they become cranky and try to pull you over to get change. Or for some kids, they go and they hide behind the couch or in a corner to go DBM like they have these little towels, they’re noticing something’s happening and that’s really a big readiness skill also.

 

00;22;30;13 – 00;22;47;14

Dr. Jenicka

And then the last one that I would say is that they also have to be able to sit down on the potty for, you know, at least a few minutes. So, you know, some really little guys, they just have a very high activity level. They don’t necessarily want to sit. And when I say sitting, I would include sitting with, you know, something else going on because, right.

 

00;22;47;14 – 00;23;07;24

Dr. Jenicka

They don’t want to just stay sitting if there’s nothing going on. But like if you were to have them sitting on the potty with like a book or, you know, an iPad or toys or singing or playing with them while they’re sitting and they still can’t sit for more than a few minutes, they’re probably not ready. But most kids, you know, around that age, they can sit and be entertained and like, kind of hang with you on the potty for at least a few minutes.

 

00;23;07;27 – 00;23;25;29

Dr. Jenicka

And then the other thing that a lot of people and I didn’t prepare as much for this as I thought I had, was that they need to be able to push down their pants on their own. So a lot of kids by age two, you’ll see the kids who are like the the pajama escape artist that, yeah, they’re taking off their clothes and things like that.

 

00;23;26;04 – 00;23;45;04

Dr. Jenicka

Like they need to be able to really push down their pants because otherwise they’re not going to be able to independently use the potty, because then they would still rely on the adult most of the time to help them push down their pants enough to actually go. So those are sort of the core prerequisite skills that I have for most kids with regard to potty training.

 

00;23;45;04 – 00;24;08;01

Dr. Jenicka

And the other thing that I did want to sort of discuss briefly was that the gentle, child led potty training approach is actually not always helpful. It can actually be harmful for some kids. And when I say harmful, I really just mean just not helpful, but mainly in the fact that. So sometimes what happens is that you go the gentle, potty led, sort of approach.

 

00;24;08;03 – 00;24;28;13

Dr. Jenicka

And for some kids it just doesn’t work. And then parents might start getting frustrated and they might start, you know, putting pressure on them to go or it might, you know, sort of be a little bit less reinforcing. And then they might start protesting, going, and then it becomes, you know, the sort of struggle. So I think it’s important to kind of get out there that the gentle potty training approach is not for everybody.

 

00;24;28;15 – 00;24;40;08

Dr. Jenicka

Kids are all individuals and different and will respond differently to different things. So just because it’s popularized on social media and it’s got the word gentle on it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s going to be helpful for your child.

 

00;24;40;11 – 00;24;57;29

Dr. Mona

And it doesn’t mean that the alternative is not gentle, right? I mean, we talk about that, but the whole terminology of gentle parenting, I obviously respect parenting styles, but I have issues with two types of parenting style names gentle parenting and attachment parenting, because it seems like anything else we don’t do that’s not in that is.

 

00;24;57;29 – 00;25;02;05

Dr. Jenicka

Yeah. Then it seems like it’s therefore not gentle or not. It’s not based.

 

00;25;02;07 – 00;25;22;07

Dr. Mona

Right. But of course, I mean, we’re going on a tangent, but I did sleep training, which obviously an attachment parenting style will probably not recommend a quiet method of sleep training. I do a little bit of reward systems. I would consider myself a gentle, quote unquote parent because of how we approach tantrums and stuff like that. But it’s not the style, it’s just how we all approach, right?

 

00;25;22;07 – 00;25;37;22

Dr. Mona

We’re all I mean, a lot of people listening are gentle in the sense that they want to raise love kids, they’re learning about themselves. Gentle parents also do yell sometimes and repair. I mean, there’s so much in, like, these parenting styles. And the problem is it’s all marketing.

 

00;25;37;24 – 00;26;12;14

Dr. Jenicka

That’s really what it comes down to. It’s all marketing. You’re all doing the same stuff. Yeah, positive parenting, gentle parenting, respectful parenting. The only one I would say is actually markedly different is attachment parenting, because you have some very extreme practices that they promote that can, in fact backfire. Like, I actually had a follower once who had tried so hard to do all the attachment parenting practices that it sent her into a severe depression, and then she couldn’t even be around her kid, which we know that untreated maternal postpartum depression, which can be exacerbated by things like a lack of sleep and yes, you know, support that can actually cause attachment issues.

 

00;26;12;14 – 00;26;27;05

Dr. Jenicka

So there’s a lot of misconceptions out there. And I would also say that the funny part was when I was doing my series on potty training and I was like, all right, potty training, boot camp, I had some other psychologist being like, what do you mean, boot camp? Like, you can’t like, call it a boot camp. And I was like, well, it’s a boot camp.

 

00;26;27;05 – 00;26;47;17

Dr. Jenicka

But for the parents, it’s a pretty party for the kids. So it’s all about how you’re sort of framing it. And like, clearly I am not a marketing genius. Otherwise I would have thought that through. But, you know, it’s one of those things where it’s a marketing ploy, when it comes to all the different sort of parenting styles, there’s actually no discernible difference between most of them, as long as you’re, like the positive parenting practices.

 

00;26;47;19 – 00;26;50;19

Dr. Jenicka

So, yeah, that’s, that’s a bit off the deep end.

 

00;26;50;21 – 00;27;11;10

Dr. Mona

Well, I love this conversation because I also love that your daughter is like six months older than my son, that I was watching your journey. And I’m like, oh, this is great. Like you said, like watching how a neuropsychologist is funny training. And also, yes, because personally, I plan on doing something very similar when we’re in more of an established housing situation because, I don’t know, I want to potty train without.

 

00;27;11;16 – 00;27;12;08

Dr. Mona

Potty train without.

 

00;27;12;08 – 00;27;22;05

Dr. Jenicka

Yeah, definitely not. Now you want you want to be settled and you want to have a good 3 to 5 days where you can dedicate just to potty training, set yourself up for success, get everything else ironed out first.

 

00;27;22;07 – 00;27;39;00

Dr. Mona

Well, I’m glad that we talked about this reward system and obviously a little bit about potty training. We can do a whole different podcast solely about potty training, because I know we have so much other information to give to parents, but where can people find you if they want to find out more about you? And, all of your information?

 

00;27;39;02 – 00;28;00;04

Dr. Jenicka

Yeah. So I would encourage you to go to my Instagram, which is Doctor Jenica, Dr. G and ICA. I am also working on a website which is also doctor Jenica, Dr. G and Icom. And then I’m also on YouTube under the same handle. So I’m, I’m pretty consistent there if you want to find me and otherwise you can always, message doctor Mona.

 

00;28;00;07 – 00;28;01;09

Dr. Jenicka

Yes. Find me through her.

 

00;28;01;15 – 00;28;13;14

Dr. Mona

Yes. And I always like to. And these podcasts now with a little bit of a fun question. So one of my questions for you is tell me your biggest parenting fail and also your biggest parenting victory is.

 

00;28;13;18 – 00;28;40;14

Dr. Jenicka

All right. So, my biggest parenting fail. So this one is kind of a touchy subject for me. So I had a lot of trouble breastfeeding. I desperately wanted to breastfeed, but we had some tongue tie, latch issues, severe reflux, and, I also just had some issues, I think because, I have, PCOS and endometriosis. So I think that was impactful for, you know, milk supply and things.

 

00;28;40;14 – 00;29;00;05

Dr. Jenicka

And I just I felt really, you know, awful that that was not something that went according to plan, which I think a lot of moms can sort of, sympathize with. It’s something where I know a lot of my friends have had the same sort of things, and nobody really talks about how breastfeeding doesn’t necessarily come natural to everybody, and you might have problems with that.

 

00;29;00;17 – 00;29;21;00

Dr. Jenicka

So I feel like, on one part that was a bit of a fail, but not really my fault. I ended up exclusively pumping after that for a long time, and then I definitely had a vacuum sort of fall on my child at one point, so that that sort of felt like a bit of a, a fail there, but, luckily, not too many fellas.

 

00;29;21;00 – 00;29;23;15

Dr. Jenicka

I don’t think I’ll have to ask her when she’s older.

 

00;29;23;17 – 00;29;28;07

Dr. Mona

Yes. Yeah. And what about your parenting victory?

 

00;29;29;03 – 00;29;32;10

Dr. Jenicka

Honestly, I got to say, potty training, and I love phase I.

 

00;29;32;12 – 00;29;34;09

Dr. Mona

I will say the better. It is impressive.

 

00;29;34;16 – 00;29;44;27

Dr. Jenicka

I did better than I thought I would do on that. I got to give myself a pat on the back for that, because usually it takes about five days and three days and really no accident since I’m like, all right, great.

 

00;29;45;22 – 00;30;05;02

Dr. Mona

No, I will say that is awesome. And and again, I know people listening may be like, I’m going to do that method. Don’t be upset if it goes a little shorter. Longer. I mean obviously manage expectations, but it’s very important to be consistent. And like I said, if you want more information on what Doctor Jenicka just mentioned with her potty training advice, she has post on her Instagram account and they’re great.

 

00;30;05;02 – 00;30;15;03

Dr. Mona

So go ahead and check that out at Doctor Dr. Jen I see okay. And I’m going to touch her information to my show notes. And thanks again for joining me today.

 

00;30;15;05 – 00;30;17;19

Dr. Jenicka

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This is great combo.

 

00;30;17;19 – 00;30;33;26

Dr. Mona

Appreciate it. Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review. Share this episode with a friend. Share it on your social media. Make sure to follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram and subscribe to my YouTube channel, PedsDocTalk TV. We’ll talk to you soon.