I am so happy to welcome Andrea, a sleep consultant. We have a great conversation about infant/child sleep.

We talk about sleep training (and sleep in general) including her thoughts on various methods and considerations when a family is deciding how to aid their child is self-settling. She also tackles common questions I get asked in regards to transitioning baby from a bassinet to a crib, naps, early wakings, and information on cry-methods of sleep training and methods with less crying.

00;00;06;07 – 00;00;36;24

Dr. Mona

Hey, everyone, welcome to the PedsDocTalk podcast. I’m your host, Doctor Mona, where each week I hope to educate and inspire you in your journey through parenthood with information on your most common concerns as a parent and interviews with fellow parents and experts in the field. My hope is you leave each week feeling more educated, confident and empowered in decisions you make for your child.

 

00;00;36;26 – 00;00;55;08

Dr. Mona

Hello! Welcome to this episode. So this episode is part of the sleep training series that I have done, and I’m so glad to welcome Andrea. Andrea is a sleep training consultant and she has a fantastic Instagram page called Babies Sleep dot answers. Welcome, Andrea.

 

00;00;55;10 – 00;00;58;18

Andrea

Hi. Thank you. I’m excited to be here I love it!

 

00;00;58;20 – 00;01;14;25

Dr. Mona

I am so excited to hear to I you know, what I wanted to do was I recorded an episode on my own. I had some other episodes as well, but I really wanted to get a sleep training consultant on just to kind of educate families about the different methods out there. So I’m so glad that you’re on today.

 

00;01;14;27 – 00;01;21;03

Dr. Mona

So tell me a little bit more about why you became a sleep training consultant, and also a little bit more about your account.

 

00;01;21;05 – 00;01;36;19

Andrea

Yeah, for sure. Actually, if I if again, I’ll say I want to be more of a sleep consultant than just a sleep training consultant because I want to help people figure out what’s going on with their sleep before they even think they have to sleep train, because that’s something a lot of people fear, like, I’m going to have to sleep train.

 

00;01;36;21 – 00;01;58;17

Andrea

And most people you don’t actually have to. You know, when we think sleep training, we think like sleeping kids for crying for hours in their bed. Right? And so what I focus on is giving, like the perfect schedule, perfect environment, perfect everything so that they, when they’re tired, they can just go to sleep. And then if we need to step back, like take another step and do sleep training, then we can find like the most gentle method or the most intense method, whatever.

 

00;01;58;17 – 00;02;17;20

Andrea

It works best for our family. But sorry. Backtracking. How did I get into this? My first boy, I have two little sons, and my first little dude was not sleeping and it was six months. I had horrible postpartum anxiety and I didn’t know what to do and so I didn’t. I’m very proud person, so I didn’t want to hire help.

 

00;02;17;20 – 00;02;36;06

Andrea

And so I said, you know what? I’m going to get certified. I’m going to figure it out. And I did. I got certified. And then through that, I realized there was a lot I didn’t know and a lot and a lot of moms don’t know. And I realized I could make something that could help more moms have easily accessible information about what they can do for baby sleep.

 

00;02;36;09 – 00;02;37;29

Andrea

Sorry, I tend to ramble on.

 

00;02;38;02 – 00;02;57;02

Dr. Mona

No, this is good. Well, we have a this is why we have a podcast episode for this because, I mean, we could we could record like ten different episodes because there’s so much to go over in regards to sleep. So I’m happy that obviously what you’re what you’re doing is coming from a place of need, right? You said that you had a, a boy, a son who just wasn’t sleeping well.

 

00;02;57;02 – 00;03;03;04

Dr. Mona

And you’re like, you know what? I need to change this, and I’m going to do whatever I need to do to change it. So, yeah, tell me more.

 

00;03;03;06 – 00;03;19;27

Andrea

Yeah. And so that’s that’s what I did, actually, it’s interesting because with that little dude, I took the course, I finished it up and I was doing everything right. And he still wasn’t sleeping. And so I talked to my trainer person and I was like, what’s wrong? And she’s like, well, if you’re doing everything right, then you know, there’s something wrong.

 

00;03;19;27 – 00;03;35;20

Andrea

And I was like, She’s like, maybe there’s an allergy going on. And she was right. There was a dairy allergy that I had not noticed. He had no other symptoms except he was in pain at night. Eventually he did have, you know, blood and diapers because it was a we hadn’t seen it for so long. You know, other symptoms.

 

00;03;35;23 – 00;03;51;25

Andrea

And so that helped me realize too, like, if you have everything in order, if you sleep, train early. Well, not necessarily sleep train, but if baby is having as much sleep as possible, it is easier to know that there’s something wrong. Right? Because a lot of the times when we’re like, I don’t know if he’s waking up more than four times a night, like it’s our time to cuddle, and that’s completely fine.

 

00;03;51;27 – 00;04;16;19

Andrea

But sometimes you have to say like, well, maybe there’s some underlying issue that you don’t know because you haven’t quite figured out their sleep needs. And so that’s another huge part of why I do what I do. It’s because there’s just so much information we don’t know is new moms, right. And so that’s why I’m on my Instagram all the time, like just sharing things, just talking to people, just saying like, it’s okay to feel like you have no idea what’s going on because I don’t I mean, I don’t know much about nutrition.

 

00;04;16;19 – 00;04;23;05

Andrea

And so I’ve had to reach out to nutritionists and dietitians and pediatricians and there’s there’s a lot of people out there that do want to help.

 

00;04;23;07 – 00;04;38;14

Dr. Mona

And so who do you think would benefit from hiring a sleep consultant like, obviously, because you are meeting the family at their needs, the child’s age. So, you know, talking a little bit more about the services that you provide. Who do you think would benefit from having a sleep consultant?

 

00;04;38;20 – 00;04;52;12

Andrea

Honestly, I always like people always ask me, like, when do I need a sleep trainer? Where do I need help? And I’m always saying, like, when you have a situation where you’re unhappy, you know your baby’s unhappy, or if something’s happening that is not sustainable, then I would reach out for help, not necessarily to sleep and so on.

 

00;04;52;12 – 00;05;11;12

Andrea

Like, you don’t have to. I mean, I’m here for you, but reach out for help, reach out to other moms, reach out to you, Patricia, and anybody else when you feel like something’s wrong, right? Or when what you’re doing. It’s just that that’s the word I use because people ask me all the time, like, is it bad? I’m like, well, is a sustainable, is it sustainable that you’re up every hour nursing baby?

 

00;05;11;22 – 00;05;27;02

Andrea

Does that making you a happy person? And is that baby a happy person? And if the answer is ever no, or like if you’re holding baby for every single nap and you can’t do anything because of that, that’s probably not sustainable. Some people like it. Some people want to hold their baby for every nap, and they can do it and completely fine.

 

00;05;27;02 – 00;05;33;29

Andrea

But if that’s not sustainable for you, sorry for 6 to 1 million times. No. That’s one. I think you need to reach out for help.

 

00;05;34;02 – 00;05;55;13

Dr. Mona

And that and that is exactly the point that I want everyone to understand, is that it’s not a requirement that you have to have a baby’s sleep through the night by each day. It’s about what is what, what do you want for your family and what do you want? Obviously, for the caretaker, you know, my perspective is and the reason why I am so pro sleep training is not that I’m wanting the kid to sleep.

 

00;05;55;13 – 00;06;14;19

Dr. Mona

And you know, it has to be this way. It’s that their sleep is beneficial in so many ways to the child. In terms of immune health, in terms of behavior, especially getting into the toddler years, but more so it has a huge effect on mothers maternal well-being, which is what, you know, you were saying that you had gone through a little bit, and I that’s the reason why I chose it.

 

00;06;14;19 – 00;06;36;12

Dr. Mona

Now. It is such a it’s it is a controversial thing, you know, the methods or how early or how you do it. I, I’m happy we’re having this conversation because I want everyone to know who’s listening. The reason why it’s so confusing is that there’s just so many different schools of thought about how it can be done. And unfortunately, there’s just not so much literature.

 

00;06;36;28 – 00;06;58;14

Dr. Mona

I recorded one episode with, a PhD about early childhood stress, and we talked about all the literature that, is surrounding, sleep training. And we talked about how there needs to be more research to say that, you know, X, Y, and Z, but I want to know what are your thoughts first, on how early a baby can be sleep trained.

 

00;06;58;14 – 00;07;07;10

Dr. Mona

And I know you’re not always doing sleep training, but in terms of if a family wants to get a baby, quote unquote, sleeping through the night, how early do you think that can be done?

 

00;07;07;12 – 00;07;27;10

Andrea

Honestly? I mean, sleeping to the night is also definitely never a goal. It’s just like sleeping as much as baby needs is always my goal. And so honestly, that’s my goal from the day there home from that hospital. I want to make it so the baby is comfortable, has is learning the skill of independent sleep and is, you know, is not going down overtired, is not going to go under tired.

 

00;07;27;16 – 00;07;47;19

Andrea

And so as soon as they’re home from the hospital, you can start to work on that skill. Now, as far as actual sleep training methods go, I usually just wait until 3 to 4 months when they’ve had a change in the way that they’re sleeping, but they’re just I mean, you probably know this more than me. Since you’ve been talking to people with research, I haven’t found any research that says, like, all right, two months and three days.

 

00;07;47;19 – 00;08;03;24

Andrea

That’s exactly when you can sleep train. Because in I mean, overall, the the definition of sleep training is just teaching a baby how to sleep on their own. And so you can do that as early as a newborn. Some babies take to it a lot quicker than others. Or you can do it whenever you’re ready for it.

 

00;08;03;24 – 00;08;20;12

Andrea

Like I just hopped off call with a 20 month old mom who was definitely ready for it. And I’ve had I’ve had eight year old clients who are still not sleeping through the night. That mom was miserable, so I don’t recommend that. Like it really. You can start working on good habits as soon as you’re ready for it.

 

00;08;20;12 – 00;08;36;11

Andrea

That’s another thing too, because if it’s stressing you out, if it’s making you more anxious and it’s not time for it, that’s what I tell. Like newborn moms always like, this is stressing you out too much. Take a breather, take some time, and then next week, for the first nap of the day, try to put them down awake and see what happens.

 

00;08;36;14 – 00;08;54;11

Dr. Mona

And that I love. Thank you so much for clarifying clarifying the terminology because there is such a like, again, there’s just a lot of this sort of my baby has to be doing X, Y, and Z has to be doing this by a certain time. And it’s really, like you said, it’s sleep training. Sure, I get it that everyone wants their baby to sleep through the night.

 

00;08;54;11 – 00;09;11;23

Dr. Mona

And when I say that I’m using the terminology of 7 to 7, not waking up a single time, but that is not always going to be the case. I and and that is not. And I want people understand that. And that’s why it’s so hard. Because then like you said earlier on in this conversation already, you know, you’ll asked other friends like, well, what did you do?

 

00;09;11;27 – 00;09;27;20

Dr. Mona

Oh, I did cry it out or I did, gentle weaning where we weaned down the feeds. And then you try it for your child and all of a sudden you’re like, wait, what the heck’s happening? Why isn’t it working for me? But it’s such sleep is such a, You know, there’s so many different things that go into sleep.

 

00;09;27;20 – 00;09;50;10

Dr. Mona

The environment, like you said, the the the person, like the baby itself, like the temperament. And so it’s it’s nice having these conversations and people understanding that there’s no recipe that’s going to be the end all, be all that your child’s going to sleep through the night per se. It’s the sort of okay, how can I teach them self-soothing that I think is a is a better is a better kind of terminology.

 

00;09;50;10 – 00;10;15;04

Andrea

Is they’ll challenge. Yeah I’ll challenge. Yeah. Because they’re there is proof that babies can’t self-soothe. But the thing is we’re not asking them to self-soothe like toddlers can’t self-soothe, right? They can’t regular throw motions, but they can’t self settle. And you’ve touched on it a lot. But there is so much polarization between, you know, like the super crunchy moms that only want to co-sleep and the super cried out that think co-sleeping is so bad and there’s just always so much battling.

 

00;10;15;04 – 00;10;29;01

Andrea

And it’s like, why can’t we just understand that this is what worked for me. That’s what worked for you. And we all have our child’s best interest in mind, you know? And so that’s what people will throw it up like, well, you want to have a baby self-soothe and they can’t, or you don’t want to have an independent child.

 

00;10;29;03 – 00;10;42;05

Andrea

And it’s just like, no, no, we don’t have to focus on that. We have to see on what the baby needs and what they can do. A baby can learn to self settle if they are well rested, if they’re ready to go to sleep, if they’re not hungry or uncomfortable. Right. And so that’s where we’re going to work.

 

00;10;42;12 – 00;10;52;07

Andrea

Wherever they are, however there may be, sometimes it’s going to take some crying to get there. Depending on age and personality and parenting style. But it’s not a reason to hate on someone right.

 

00;10;52;09 – 00;11;10;10

Dr. Mona

Yes. There’s a lot of, you know mommy I actually to leave some mommy groups because being a pediatrician on a mommy group is probably the worst thing because, because of all the false medical information that’s put out there, not necessarily the parenting stuff. And we’re coming down in a way. And sleep training is or sleep in general is a parent.

 

00;11;10;10 – 00;11;33;12

Dr. Mona

It can be a parenting thing, but also a developmental thing. But there is you’re right, a lot of negative against each other. And it’s exhausting as a mother and pediatrician because I’m telling everyone, even in the other episodes that I recorded, there is literally no right or wrong. So when people start attacking, I love that you’re saying that because when people start attacking both sides, you’re right.

 

00;11;33;12 – 00;11;51;26

Dr. Mona

I completely agree that the anti sleep train versus the anti co-sleep versus whatever, it’s like, well you’re going to ruin your kid this way. You’re going to ruin this kid. In the end I’m like does it really matter what anyone else is doing with their children. Sleep like it doesn’t affect me how you Andrea sleep train your son versus yeah, yeah, right.

 

00;11;51;26 – 00;12;06;05

Andrea

I keep you. But I was thinking like, do you really think like when they’re 20 they’re going to be talking to. Yeah. How you sleep train. Like there is so much more to. Yeah. There’s like behavior there’s nutrition. Yeah. This should not be the thing that makes you angry at someone else.

 

00;12;06;07 – 00;12;28;19

Dr. Mona

Exactly. And I and I love talking I love talking about that because the, the just the butting of heads. And I get it. If it’s not for you, if a method is not for one family, that doesn’t mean that method is a bad method. It just means it didn’t work for your family. And I, you know, again, why I wanted to record this with you was because I, like I said, have my ways that I train Ryan.

 

00;12;28;19 – 00;12;45;06

Dr. Mona

But that doesn’t mean and I obviously know that that’s not going to work for every family. And nor could it work when I have a second child. Yeah. You know, and I’ve seen that. And that’s another common is that sometimes, like parents will have the same method, they have a second sibling. And that method is just not working for sibling number two.

 

00;12;45;08 – 00;12;47;26

Dr. Mona

And it’s it’s really important that they understand that.

 

00;12;47;26 – 00;12;56;21

Andrea

It’s funny you say that because I have a lot of clients that are third time parents and they’re like, well, I figure I should know this, but now it’s like, why you’re meeting a brand new person.

 

00;12;56;24 – 00;13;17;08

Dr. Mona

Yeah, brand new person, brand new temperament. Right? And I keep bringing back the temperament of the baby. Because it has it can have a huge it has a huge way of understanding. Well, how what sleep method is if you just had to sleep train. But what am I going to do to meet the baby’s temperament? Because some babies just do not respond well to cry method.

 

00;13;17;12 – 00;13;36;23

Dr. Mona

Some babies will not respond well to gentler methods. And I’ve seen this in my office and I saw with my own son. So I love this. So the next question I wanted to ask you is, your thoughts obviously, because, just having a discussion on dropping feedings versus not. And again, I know we’re not talking again, that everyone has to have a baby sleeping through the night.

 

00;13;36;23 – 00;13;45;08

Dr. Mona

But when you are deciding to sleep, train, do you feel like dropping feeds is okay? Does it depend what are your thoughts about that?

 

00;13;45;09 – 00;13;52;27

Andrea

My honest, thought on this is that I don’t want to get sued ever. So I never give advice.

 

00;13;53;00 – 00;13;54;26

Dr. Mona

I you never got some great answer.

 

00;13;54;26 – 00;14;17;27

Andrea

I always say ask your position. Now, if you also have an opinion on feeding babies when they’re not hungry. And this is also where some people differ. Some people love to comfort nurses. I absolutely hate nursing and so I never comfort nursed. But I understand that some people like to comfort nurse, right? And so sometimes when baby wakes up, people just pick them up and plug them on the right and up and give them a bottle.

 

00;14;18;00 – 00;14;32;15

Andrea

I like to let baby tell us what they need, right? So they might need to cry for a minute or two and then go back to sleep, which we would never know if we just picked them up and fed them. And so my thing with going through the night is it’s not to drop a feed until your pediatrician tells you it’s okay.

 

00;14;32;28 – 00;14;40;14

Andrea

But at the beginning to always give them a chance to tell us what they need and to give them what they need, not just always feed the milk. Does that help? Is that a good answer?

 

00;14;40;16 – 00;14;59;05

Dr. Mona

Yes. But and you know, that is actually a really, really good point because I, I go downstream and I know I think you at the end you’re going to talk about like you had a, you had you had a course that you did. But I did a podcast episode about the first three months of life and about that sort of waiting a little bit before we jump them to a feeding.

 

00;14;59;11 – 00;15;19;01

Dr. Mona

I, I totally respect mothers who want that sort of comfort and that closeness, but the pause. Right. And the French are actually very popular about doing this la pause. Like you’re pausing a little bit before you respond to your baby does not mean that you’re not responding to a newborn. It means that you’re taking a minute or two before you jump, and before you, you’re assessing their needs.

 

00;15;19;01 – 00;15;47;17

Dr. Mona

And I we did that with Ryan, and it really does help. But I, I agree, I love that you said that you leave it to nutrition or this is I want to speak about this because this is actually another contested thing within sleep training. Now we obviously are deciding sleep train versus not okay, fine. But now if someone is trying to sleep train right, meaning get their baby sleeping through the night, there is a huge debate on dropping feeds versus complete no feeds overnight.

 

00;15;47;17 – 00;16;10;06

Dr. Mona

Now, I also look at how that baby was doing at the visit when I talked to the family about the methods. So like I when I go into a visit and they come in at the four month visit, I say, well, what’s going on at night? Because I think that’s an important thing for parents to know, because sometimes if a baby is truly feeding for feed, it’s not like one minute on the breast back down.

 

00;16;10;06 – 00;16;30;07

Dr. Mona

But truth is, there can be a difficulty in getting those feeds off, culture. So that’s why it’s hard. I, I mean, everyone probably listen to my other episode. We ended up doing a complete pry method with Ryan because he was already stretching eight hours, so he was already stretching eight hours. So, I mean, we made the decision while he was already stretching.

 

00;16;30;07 – 00;16;51;05

Dr. Mona

Eat. Why don’t we see if we can do a 12? And it works for him because of the temperament. But I think when parents are trying to find what strategy works, and this is why I’m so glad about the series of episodes, they have to kind of think, well, let me see what my baby is doing and let me get the go ahead from the pediatrician, because I agree, weight is obviously a concern if the baby’s not gaining weight.

 

00;16;51;22 – 00;16;56;10

Dr. Mona

And then we they’re not going to clear you for sleep training because they want to obviously make sure. So that’s a really great point.

 

00;16;56;17 – 00;17;11;00

Andrea

Yeah. And actually most of my clients I kind of I think I what’s it called attract clients that are less on the cried out method train. And so most of them are like well of my sleep train. Do I have to stop nursing? And I’m like, you don’t even have to stop night nursing. It’s all up to you.

 

00;17;11;00 – 00;17;28;18

Andrea

Whatever you want to do, you can ask for my opinion on what I think might be better for the sleep, but it’s completely up to you. Sleep training just means teaching them the skill of independent sleep. It doesn’t mean they won’t wake up asking for food anymore if they’re going to starve, right? So you have to be in constant communication with yourself.

 

00;17;28;18 – 00;17;42;13

Andrea

What am I okay with? What do I want? And then also like I don’t, I, I have a pediatrician that told me at four months that he was ready to stop eating at night and just give him water, and that didn’t feel right with me. So I followed my gut and I was like, you know what? I don’t think he I don’t think he’s ready for that.

 

00;17;42;13 – 00;17;47;10

Andrea

And I didn’t do it. So I think it’s really important to confer with a pediatrician and then confer with yourself and.

 

00;17;47;12 – 00;17;48;07

Dr. Mona

Yes.

 

00;17;48;07 – 00;17;52;20

Andrea

Your spouse if you have one, anybody else, because it’s up to you.

 

00;17;52;22 – 00;18;12;26

Dr. Mona

Yeah. No, it is. And it’s up to you whether you’re going to do it. And it’s up to you again, like which method you would choose. Now, you, you know, you obviously talked about briefly that a lot of your clients end up being more on the non cry or minimal crying. Is there any absolute no cry method of sleep training or teaching a baby to self-soothe?

 

00;18;12;26 – 00;18;17;02

Dr. Mona

Or is there some degree of foster crying that you’ll see?

 

00;18;17;08 – 00;18;34;24

Andrea

Usually I would say 99.99%. There’s always some kind of a thing, even if it’s for a minute or two, right? There might be. The thing is, I’ve had clients that follow everything I say and they put their baby down and they don’t cry at all, and they just go to sleep. And I’m going to I’m going to say like, that’s because baby was ready to fall asleep.

 

00;18;34;24 – 00;18;49;26

Andrea

They had that too. You weren’t letting them. And so no, I’m not going to say there’s any method that 100% will tell you is no crying because you’re teaching a baby something. And usually when you’re trying to teach a baby something, they’re going to fight back, or at least and the only way they can protest is through crying, because that’s the only way they know how to talk.

 

00;18;49;26 – 00;19;09;07

Andrea

Right? So no, I wouldn’t go into it thinking like, my baby’s not going to cry if I do. The most gentle method. Also, as you mentioned, sometimes we try gentle methods and we try to be there with them all the time. And that just makes. Yeah, very, you know, like I know. Yeah. Like, if someone kept touching me while I try to fall asleep and we don’t think about that, you know, we just think like, oh, baby needs me, baby needs me.

 

00;19;09;07 – 00;19;17;26

Andrea

And it’s like, well, not necessarily always, you know, baby is a his own entity. So maybe sometimes he needs space as like hard sounding them as maybe.

 

00;19;17;28 – 00;19;40;09

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And you. But it’s so funny because this happened last night, literally the night before. We’re recording this episode. So Ryan, we sleep, train him, and he woke up at two in the morning and he’s never done this like in the last week. Okay. And I was like, well, but I left the room only because I was just testing him to see what he does, and I there was a few nights that happened prior that I would stay in the room and he would cry.

 

00;19;40;11 – 00;19;59;12

Dr. Mona

We did, for we’re doing Ferber right now and he would just keep crying. And I’m like, wow, this isn’t working. And then finally I’m like, you know what? Let me just see if I go out. What’s going to happen? He stopped crying in a minute. Yeah. And it’s because I was there and he was basically he’s old enough and he’s he’s super smart that he kind of knew mommy’s here, but I can do this on my own.

 

00;19;59;12 – 00;20;18;16

Dr. Mona

But she’s here. Maybe she’ll do something. And he stopped in a minute. And my husband was actually, still awake at the time. And he was. And I was like, I asked him, he’s like, yeah, he fell asleep in a minute. I’m like, wow. And I’ve realized that for him, this situation, like you said it, me being around was probably going to mess up his ability in this situation to do what he knows how to do.

 

00;20;18;16 – 00;20;34;15

Dr. Mona

And it’s such a fascinating thing. And I know that’s probably why parents are so confused. They’re like, I don’t know what’s right. I don’t know what I should do. But great point. I completely agree with that. And from personal experience, I would say that that makes a lot of sense, that it’s not always so, so clear cut.

 

00;20;34;15 – 00;20;54;11

Dr. Mona

And for anyone listening, I, you know, as a pediatrician mother, a person is very into development. If you do allow any sort of crying. I’m going to be honest, minute, 30 minutes, whatever method you choose, you’re not harming your baby. I know there’s a lot of people who won’t ever believe that because that’s what they want to believe, and I’m okay with that.

 

00;20;54;11 – 00;21;18;27

Dr. Mona

But I also want people understand that if you choose that method, which many people choose, including myself, you’re not harming anyone. If if that’s the method you choose to go by, whether it’s one minute of fasting, two minute or longer, we’re never going to allow a baby to cry for four hours. Please. But it is definitely, definitely understanding that you have to allow a little bit of us sometimes, like you said, in some of these gentler methods.

 

00;21;18;27 – 00;21;34;24

Dr. Mona

Also, what is an example of like a gentle, gentler and I say gentler method because that’s the kind of terminology but of something that you’re describing that is more of a lesser cry method. If you I don’t know what you can correct me on the terms for a baby who’s around six months old, what would that look like?

 

00;21;34;24 – 00;21;36;11

Dr. Mona

And correct me on the terminology if you need to.

 

00;21;36;12 – 00;21;58;23

Andrea

Know, I mean, I that’s like we were talking earlier, like there’s not a lot of regulation on sleep training. Yeah, there’s so many things. And so there’s not really one method I choose. What my method. Sorry. Yeah I call it more involved slash more gentle. A more involved method might be including, like, if they’re used to nursing to sleep all the time, you try to instead of nursing them down, you rock them to sleep right for a few nights.

 

00;21;59;00 – 00;22;14;12

Andrea

And then instead of rocking them to sleep for a few nights, you put them in their crib and pad them to sleep for a few nights. And then after a while, you just kind of keep your hands on them and you just gently. And this can take weeks or months long as it is at your pace. Right. So that’s a more really, really, really gentle way of doing it.

 

00;22;14;12 – 00;22;35;10

Andrea

There’s some probably going to be some protesting. Another one is a really popular one, the sleep lady shuttle method of where you put a chair right next to them, and when they fuss, you help them and then you move your chair away every night. Another one is a patent search, which is similar to that first one. You know, you just pat and shush them until they almost fall asleep and then you stop and then you do it again.

 

00;22;35;19 – 00;22;53;05

Andrea

That’s actually the method we chose with our six month old when we realized that he had a very allergy. It was pretty miserable because we didn’t know he had a two year old. Yeah. But it’s a similar one that I recommend a lot to newborns. Not to sleep train, but to comfort them when they’re trying to fall asleep.

 

00;22;53;08 – 00;23;12;20

Dr. Mona

And then what about. So yeah, that’s six months. And then in terms of like an 18 month old that maybe mommy was, sleeping. Like if you had a mother who was co-sleeping with their 18 month old. But now that they’re ready to move that, toddler into their own crib or whatever may be, what would be an example of what some options are in that situation?

 

00;23;12;20 – 00;23;29;11

Andrea

You know, it’s really cool because it’s pretty much very similar methods, regardless if it’s a one month old or a six month old, or an 18 month old, or even an eight year old, like you’re going to try to meet them where they are, give them what they need, and carefully scaffold your way out of there, you know, with them away from it.

 

00;23;29;11 – 00;23;51;14

Andrea

So same similar thoughts, right? If you want to be super involved, you start just rocking them to sleep and putting them down, or you start doing something more like Ferber. Actually, I think Ferber is the kind of thing you can do to a toddler, and it’s like being there with them just because I feel like when you’re with them, not helping them, it’s kind of they’re confusing, like, why if you’re not going to help me, I can I should take that back.

 

00;23;51;14 – 00;24;06;03

Andrea

It might not be necessarily for every family, but something like a Ferber method where you tell them, I’ll be right back, you close your eyes, and if you’re up here, I should close up, come and give you a hug. And doing that. However, like the older they are, the harder, harder it gets. Because they’re more communicate. They’re communicating more.

 

00;24;06;04 – 00;24;23;21

Andrea

They’re they’re like understanding more that they know that you’re not there. So sorry. I know that’s super vague, but I tried to really come up with something like when I work one on one with someone, when they try to really find what is the method that’s going to work for them, and then only fine tune on that.

 

00;24;24;17 – 00;24;26;05

Andrea

Yeah. Feedback.

 

00;24;26;07 – 00;24;45;26

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And no, no, that’s great. And again, for anyone who’s listening, the I do talk about Ferber method and all the different kind of methods that I talk to families about in the other podcast episode that was released today. So we’re not going to get into details on Ferber per se, or all the different methods, but just wanted to have, again, a conversation with someone who, does this for a living.

 

00;24;45;26 – 00;25;19;06

Dr. Mona

So I’m super you know, obviously grateful for you. Now, the next section of this episode, I wanted to go through, questions that I got asked on a question box that I put on my Instagram. So obviously I got tons, but I we don’t have time to talk about everything. But the first question and again, just your basic tips, because we could do a whole episode about this, I’m sure, is how to transition a baby from and let’s, let’s just for the sake of this, discussion, talk about a six month old how to transition, a six month old who is used to sleeping on mom, are you going to go younger, four month old

 

00;25;19;10 – 00;25;29;28

Dr. Mona

on mom? Or in a swing? Or like a bouncer to a crib? Because that’s one common question I’m getting is how do I get my baby from what they’re used to to somewhere new?

 

00;25;29;28 – 00;25;47;10

Andrea

Yeah. Well, something that’s going to be really important in that is that you are breaking a really strong habit. Right. And imagine you trying to quit smoking. Are you trying to quit like something you absolutely love? There is going to be protesting because someone’s taking away something you know and you think you need and your body is telling you you need.

 

00;25;47;12 – 00;26;12;07

Andrea

So that’s the first thing to acknowledge, right? So if there’s lots of crying, it doesn’t mean it’s evil. It just means you’re taking a step towards what they need even though they don’t understand that. Right. And then similar thing, it’s like finding a way to scaffold away from it to wean away from it. But the thing is, and I forgot to say this, like the most important part of sleep is making sure baby’s not over tired and the baby has a good environment, and that baby knows what’s happening with routines and schedules.

 

00;26;12;21 – 00;26;29;26

Andrea

Because if you try any method without any all of that, you’re just going to have hours and hours of struggle, right? So making sure that everything is set in place for example, if you’re used to sleeping in a swing, right? So they’re used to sitting in a swing in the living room for naps, but you want them in their room for a crib, right?

 

00;26;29;28 – 00;26;44;00

Andrea

Make sure schedule is fine. Make sure you have good routine to make sure you have a great environment. And then put the swing in the room right. So slowly wean them towards what you want. Or you know you can go cold turkey, but you’re going to have more crying. Are you okay with that crying? Yes. No. Do it.

 

00;26;44;02 – 00;27;17;06

Dr. Mona

Yeah that’s exactly that’s that’s great. And we are struggling. We’re not going to see struggle because we’re making a choice not to put right in this group right now. Because we, we enjoy the naps on us. But we know and I know because I know child development and behavior that is going to take and it can take weeks for them to get a new skill, like you said, like even for nighttime, sleeping, like you said, daytime to like, naps, if you’re going to get them in like a place that you want them like a crib, it can take repetitive behavior troubleshooting, obviously, but it’s not a, oh, four nights or four days.

 

00;27;17;06 – 00;27;34;13

Dr. Mona

And we’re going to be okay with the new normal. They are a baby and they have what they’re used to, like, just like us. But it’s really, really hard to get them to change what they’re used to and what they’re comfortable with. I completely agree with that. Now kind of again, naps were a whole big, big question on my on my Q&A.

 

00;27;35;03 – 00;27;51;08

Dr. Mona

What are again, I know a lot of it might have to do with, scheduling and whatnot, but what a lot of the people are asking, what about short naps? What is your general kind of, what you would say about babies? Babies who have short naps. I know toddlers might be a little different, but maybe like, again, let’s use six month as an example.

 

00;27;51;15 – 00;27;56;09

Dr. Mona

A baby who’s six months is just has 20 30 minute power naps and not going longer.

 

00;27;56;11 – 00;28;17;28

Andrea

20 would tell me that they’re overtired, right? So you need a mixed schedule around always. I always start with schedule, but definitely 20 is too short. If it’s like 3045, I really wouldn’t worry. There are a lot of sleep consultants that do crib hour, which means you leave them in there. They wake up at 45 and you teach them they’re going to stay in their crib for an hour, and eventually they put that together.

 

00;28;17;28 – 00;28;41;04

Andrea

I personally can’t do that, and I don’t like to refer people to do something I personally can’t do. And I know it because I’m a wimp with crying. So I never personally suggest, and I say personally going, I suggest crib power, but I know it can be successful. All right. The reason I don’t suggest it, besides not being personally that is because sometimes you don’t know why they’re crying.

 

00;28;41;04 – 00;28;58;17

Andrea

Maybe they were overtired and they actually need help connecting that nap. Maybe they were under tighter than they really don’t need more night’s sleep. And they just eventually learn that they have to stay in the crib for an hour. It’s just not my type of doing things. But, you know, mostly a lot of babies don’t know how to consolidate naps until closer to seven, eight months.

 

00;28;58;20 – 00;29;20;09

Andrea

And so I always tell parents, like, if you’re getting a 30 40 minute nap, like, it’s fine, stop stressing about it. If you want to do something about it. There’s always crib hour. And that’s always like wake them up at 30 minutes so they can restart their cycle. But honestly, like I want stress free. You know, don’t worry about long naps until you are at eight months and it’s not happening.

 

00;29;20;11 – 00;29;39;15

Andrea

And then obviously like have the schedule, have the perfect environment. Everything else to make sure that you’re setting that up. Also, the thing is, a lot of babies don’t need like 17 hours of sleep or 16 hours of sleep, right, as newborns. And so if they’re getting 12 hours of sleep at night and they can only be awake for 45 to an hour, they’re not going to have those sleep naps like that.

 

00;29;39;15 – 00;29;41;26

Andrea

Naps sleep just doesn’t exist.

 

00;29;41;28 – 00;29;58;05

Dr. Mona

No, I you know, the and I love that you brought up the seven month thing because I get a lot of, a lot of the questions are coming from, parents who have kids were like four months, five months, six months. And I’m like, wait it out. And I agree with you that it’s the chemical, like the sleep chemistry and just the sleep rhythm.

 

00;29;58;15 – 00;30;18;21

Dr. Mona

Can take time, especially for those those naps to consolidate. I agree with that. What in terms of the next the next question? Babies, have you ever worked with a family or your advice on this is a question I got when you’re doing some sort of self-soothing or whatever you’re doing, sleep training and the baby is crying to the point of vomiting.

 

00;30;18;21 – 00;30;19;22

Dr. Mona

Have you ever had that happen?

 

00;30;19;22 – 00;30;20;12

Andrea

Yeah, yeah.

 

00;30;20;13 – 00;30;25;16

Dr. Mona

It’s not advised to give them because, I mean, I’ve had that too. And I’ll tell you what I’ve said, but I want to I’m curious about what you said.

 

00;30;25;23 – 00;30;34;16

Andrea

And I’m curious about you. Say, first I want to make sure it’s not like a what’s called, I can’t say scientific words in English. Gusto and or.

 

00;30;34;18 – 00;30;37;06

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And Gerd, like gastro esophageal reflux. Yeah.

 

00;30;37;08 – 00;30;55;21

Andrea

Sure. It’s not that like my baby had reflux and that was miserable, right? Not that sometimes. I mean, make sure it’s not that. Second, if milk is like half an hour before sleep, then that milk gets right at their throat. Right now it’s not more than half an hour. So it’s right their throat. And if they’re screaming, if you have a screamer, they’re going to scream, right?

 

00;30;55;24 – 00;31;09;27

Andrea

My baby was never a screamer and he never scream. My second baby is a screamer. So as soon as you put them down, sometimes you scream. Even if he’s like, turn around, go to sleep. Right. So screamers that have milk in their throat might throw up, just as you might throw up if you hit. Just like milk.

 

00;31;09;27 – 00;31;25;11

Andrea

Right? So remove that milk from really close to that time. Also, if that happens when you’re doing a method, clean it up and put them back in there. Otherwise they might start to think like, okay, well, throw up on me. Get out of here. Yeah, that becomes a habit you don’t want to have.

 

00;31;25;18 – 00;31;48;05

Dr. Mona

So that that is so I’m going to use the example. And again I know this might not be for everyone, but if someone’s doing Ferber okay. And so what I’ve said is the same is that if they’re doing Ferber checking to see most doctors, I mean, if my baby, if I have a patient who has really bad reflux and they’re coming into the four month visit, I usually don’t clear them for sleep training because I want them obviously to make sure that the so the reflexes.

 

00;31;48;05 – 00;32;09;03

Dr. Mona

Okay. So kind of going back to the beginning of this episode, that’s why it’s important, like Andrea said, to clear sleep training with your pediatrician because they will let you know weight wise and medical issues wise if you’re clear on a medical basis. But okay, so now just say it’s a kid who has no reflux, just meaning no Gerd, just normal baby spit up, healthy, thriving weight, whatever it may be.

 

00;32;09;10 – 00;32;26;18

Dr. Mona

I say the same thing that. Yes, maybe it’s, the proximity of the food, but the whole concept of cleaning the vomit and obviously continuing that cloth, I do get a lot of families that stare at me like I have three heads when I say that. And I’m like, you’re not going to let the babies sleep in their vomit in this situation, obviously.

 

00;32;26;23 – 00;32;52;27

Dr. Mona

Like, because there are some methods that you, you know, walk in the door, close the door and walk out. This method is if someone if your kid’s vomiting, I completely agree. You’re going to and you’re going to go. And so an example is when we did cry method with Ryan, I when he started crying, I’m looking at that monitor and I’m looking to see what’s happening on the monitor, because if he has his legs stuck in the flat, if his hand is in a pool of vomit, I’m not going to let him.

 

00;32;52;27 – 00;33;12;24

Dr. Mona

I’m. I’m not a we’re not monsters. I’m not going to let him in in that, in that vomit or anything. But that’s what I agree with you. And I appreciate you saying that because, you know, it’s it is, developmentally speaking, if we keep going in every time they vomit and stay there without resetting the clock, you know, obviously you clean it up, but if then you’re like, okay, well, I don’t want to do this anymore.

 

00;33;13;00 – 00;33;31;26

Dr. Mona

They are very smart. They can learn. And I, I would not have thought it if it didn’t happen to my own son. But they’re very, very smart that they know with repetition if I just cry to the point. But obviously any loving parent is and I would, I would 100% agree with you. You are going to go in, you’re going to clean it up.

 

00;33;31;26 – 00;33;47;12

Dr. Mona

You’re going to if you have the plan of obviously patting the back, giving them a kiss, whatever you want to do, you’re giving them that reassurance because you’re not you’re their parent. You’re going to be back. But it does help to do it that way. I have many families that when the kid starts vomiting, they go clean with them.

 

00;33;47;12 – 00;34;02;09

Dr. Mona

They’re like, I can’t do this. And I’m like, well, then if you don’t want to do it, I’m 100% on board that maybe just give it a break. Like we told the babies a couple, a couple weeks older, if you want that, that is okay too. Because if it’s making you stressed out as a parent, it’s not going to be it’s not going to work.

 

00;34;02;15 – 00;34;03;23

Andrea

Yeah, there’s no timeline.

 

00;34;03;25 – 00;34;04;19

Dr. Mona

It’s the timeline.

 

00;34;04;21 – 00;34;08;17

Andrea

You’re six months. They have to sleep through the night.

 

00;34;08;19 – 00;34;25;09

Dr. Mona

There’s no timeline. And if it’s giving you more stress watching your baby fight and vomit and then it, And even though you know that maybe it may happen, it is not worth it. Because if you’re not happy with it as a parent, the kid’s not going to be happy. I mean, it’s going to be, I mean, either way, but they’re just it’s they’re going to be everyone’s going to be miserable.

 

00;34;25;09 – 00;34;44;17

Dr. Mona

Everyone’s going to feel guilt. Everyone’s just going to be upset by it. So I really I really appreciate that that answer. Have you had situations and I’m sure you have if a family chose a method and just say it’s a gentle method or a cry method, whatever it may be, and it wasn’t working and you had to switch to like a more, gentler method or vice versa.

 

00;34;44;17 – 00;34;45;23

Dr. Mona

Have you had to do that ever?

 

00;34;45;25 – 00;35;00;28

Andrea

Sure. Yeah. I think just all life, like, I always tell them to like, try it out and they’re like, what if it doesn’t work like, well, and we know that doesn’t work. You know, like, like today’s, client, she was like, well, you’re telling me to do this more intense method, but I don’t think I can do it.

 

00;35;00;28 – 00;35;14;00

Andrea

And I said, okay, then don’t do it. Like, let’s figure out what happens if you do the gentle method. Like, I have all this knowledge I can I can analyze the situation and advice you. I’m a consultant. You know, I’m not in your house telling you what to do. I’m just telling you. You know what? I think this might be best.

 

00;35;14;00 – 00;35;31;07

Andrea

But if you want to do something different, if your mom gut tells you to do something different, like try it out. If it doesn’t, it’s not going to end the day. And so a lot of people come to me and say like, well, it didn’t work. And it’s been two nights. It’s like, well, maybe you want to keep trying, but if it doesn’t feel right, you don’t have to keep suffering through it, right?

 

00;35;31;09 – 00;35;33;08

Andrea

Find something else that does work.

 

00;35;33;10 – 00;35;51;24

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And it’s exactly that. Like it’s and people think that you have to get like pigeonholed into this one method and it’s not. Absolutely. Like I’ve had this conversation with one of my best friends who’s trying to sleep train her daughter, and it’s not working. The method of Ferber, for example, is not working for her daughter. And we’ve spoken about it.

 

00;35;51;24 – 00;36;15;09

Dr. Mona

And I’m like, you know, maybe we have to you have to try something else because it’s not always going to work for every child. And it’s it’s so important that parents know the different methods and just the different ways to sleep train. Because again, meeting the child, at their, their temperament or at what they need, you know, so I love that the last question I had, again from the Q a question box that I put up your comments about early awakenings.

 

00;36;15;09 – 00;36;34;15

Dr. Mona

This is actually a very, very common question. I get my baby who wakes up at 5 a.m. versus 6 a.m.. 7 a.m.. I think is okay for most parents, but a baby who’s waking up before 7 a.m., meaning sleeping through the night from 7 p.m. but waking up at five or waking up at six? What would be your advice to that family?

 

00;36;34;15 – 00;36;35;29

Dr. Mona

Or a recommendation?

 

00;36;36;10 – 00;36;58;03

Andrea

First to realize, like, are they sleeping at seven? Or they’re falling asleep at seven and waking up at six? Because if so, that’s 11 hours. Like a lot of babies just need 11 hours, right? But anything before six is definitely not good. And so there are a lot of things that could be in play. That’s actually the hottest topic right now, because it’s the beginning of summer and it’s, you know, starting the sun is coming up earlier, setting later.

 

00;36;58;05 – 00;37;07;26

Andrea

And a lot of people, especially right now too, because of the corona situation, a lot of people have not stuck to schedules and there’s not a lot of, what’s it called? Expected ability.

 

00;37;07;27 – 00;37;08;19

Dr. Mona

Yeah.

 

00;37;08;22 – 00;37;29;25

Andrea

You know, and so when things are off, the first thing that suffers usually is baby sleep. Yeah. Morning. And so the wake up earlier. So it’s a hot topic right now. But the thing is two things about this. There are a lot of different things that could be at play. And once everything is correct, this is my least favorite issue to solve because it can take weeks even if you’re doing everything right.

 

00;37;29;27 – 00;37;46;24

Andrea

And so a lot of times people are like, well, I did everything you said and it hasn’t worked. And I’ll say, okay, how long have you been trying this? And I’ll say two days and say, well, that’s why, like you need at least two weeks of consistent get schedule environment feeding, response at the morning, comfortability, not a full diaper for two weeks.

 

00;37;46;24 – 00;37;56;24

Andrea

And then the body will reset and start to sleep longer. I know it’s not the answer most people want to hear, but it’s not a quick fix in most situations. Sometimes it is, and then I get really good reviews.

 

00;37;56;27 – 00;38;07;00

Dr. Mona

And so, you know, and so you said like, because if it’s before 6 a.m. is when you would if you’re going to put like a definition, that’s what you would consider early waking before May 30th.

 

00;38;07;00 – 00;38;08;22

Andrea

But yeah, definitely like it is too early.

 

00;38;08;22 – 00;38;32;18

Dr. Mona

Yeah, yeah I agree I know I’m looking again as a little boy who wakes up at 630 on the dot, does not give me. And some days it’s a little early and I, you know, obviously like you said, I wait and see. And then if it still happens and we have to troubleshoot. But, definitely. I know parents want to have that little later stretch, but sometimes some babies, like you said, if they’re falling asleep perfectly at seven, they may not need it.

 

00;38;32;18 – 00;38;55;27

Dr. Mona

But it’s the whole big picture thing. This is so great. I, I know people are going to have way more nitty gritty. Well, this is what’s happening to my baby. And unfortunately, we can’t get into so much nitty gritty because, you know, it’s such a different situation. But talking to your pediatrician or talking to obviously, you know, like sleep consultants like Andrea are good places to go, books and things like this.

 

00;38;56;02 – 00;39;06;07

Dr. Mona

But what would be, any other things you’d want to tell the people who are listening in regards to sleep or anything about your Instagram account or anything like that? Yeah.

 

00;39;06;07 – 00;39;21;27

Andrea

I’d encourage people to follow me on Instagram, not just because I like followers, but because I do. I have built a really, really nice community of moms that are all struggling and are all trying to help each other. Like if you look on the comments, I’m really just blessed with the people that are on there because I agree each other.

 

00;39;22;00 – 00;39;38;12

Andrea

If you’ve seen those comments like, and I go in my story every day, I do. It’s not like a filtered and well, the other day I found a coffee filter and I put it on. It was really cute, but they don’t. I like to have a rom com life there just to show you what I’m going through, and then ask you how you are.

 

00;39;38;28 – 00;39;56;15

Andrea

I think it was important to me to have a tribe, and I didn’t have one. And so I. You know what I said? I’m going to I’m going to build a tribe. And in that tribe, what I can give to my tribe is sleep help. And so that’s what I do. And a lot of people have told me, like, you have helped me to sleep, and I have never paid for your products or for your help just by following your Instagram.

 

00;39;56;17 – 00;40;12;21

Andrea

And I’m always like, awesome. Like, that’s great. Like, keep sharing love so I can help more people. Of course I do have products and I do have calls and I have an assistant who I’m training so she can take calls too. But yeah, I just encourage them to check out the Instagram baby sleep dot answers.

 

00;40;12;23 – 00;40;35;20

Dr. Mona

And I love your Instagram account, which is why I reached out to you to do this. Because yeah, one thing I always say I love when accounts mix humor, plus obviously serious things. Plus obviously mama, mama love, and the way you portray your posts, I, you know, I’ll be honest, I don’t have I don’t always get on Instagram and have the time or ability to comment a lot.

 

00;40;35;20 – 00;40;58;11

Dr. Mona

Like, I definitely am seeing things, but I just don’t have the time to. And I love I follow a lot of people, but I wish I had more time. But you are actually one of the only one of the handful of accounts that I actually comment because truly, it’s just your your humor, but also your the way you present the information and the reassurance is is huge and I am the same way, which is why I love connecting with people like you and that I’m not.

 

00;40;58;11 – 00;41;15;26

Dr. Mona

Obviously my page is for education and my page is for inspiration, just like yours. And it’s really if someone can just take away one new thing from a post, you know, that they maybe didn’t know before is is so beneficial and they can find so much use of that. And I personally just feel that way about your Instagram.

 

00;41;15;26 – 00;41;18;10

Dr. Mona

So thank you so much for starting that.

 

00;41;18;13 – 00;41;24;28

Andrea

Yeah, it’s what it’s what I wish I had when I had my first baby. So yeah, I am now I have it.

 

00;41;25;01 – 00;41;40;16

Dr. Mona

And I thank you so much for being here and everyone like I said, like she said, also, follow her baby sleep answers. But we maybe we’ll do this again later if anyone has more questions. But, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. I hope you guys enjoyed it.

 

00;41;40;16 – 00;41;56;12

Dr. Mona

As always, please leave a review, share it with a friend, comment on my social media and if you’re not already, follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram. I love doing this for all of you. Have a great rest of your week. Take care. Talk to you soon!