On this episode, I welcome Alison and Layla. Two of the scientists and mothers behind Scimoms. Scimoms is an evidence-based platform that shares content for parents. From vaccines to food myths to the environment, they provide up-to-date scientific information on your most common concerns as a parent.

We discuss how to approach evidence-based vaccine information, where NOT to turn to for information on vaccines, why we vaccinate our children, the vaccine schedule, why spacing is not recommended, and bust common myths we hear about vaccines.

00;00;06;07 – 00;00;36;06

Dr. Mona

Hey, everyone. Welcome to the PedsDocTalk podcast. I’m your host, Doctor Mona, where each week I hope to educate and inspire you in your journey through parenthood with information on your most common concerns as a parent and interviews with fellow parents and experts in the field. My hope is you leave each week feeling more educated, confident, and empowered in decisions you make for your child.

 

00;00;36;08 – 00;01;02;06

Dr. Mona

Welcome to this episode. So I am recording two episodes for this week. One was with another pediatrician, doctor Nicole Baldwin, talking about, pediatricians and our views on vaccination. And this episode I am welcoming sort two PSI moms, Alison and Layla, who are going to be talking about vaccination, their role as PSI moms, what PSI moms is. And just a little bit more about the myths behind vaccines.

 

00;01;02;06 – 00;01;04;05

Dr. Mona

Thank you, ladies for being here today.

 

00;01;04;07 – 00;01;05;27

Layla

Thank you. It’s our pleasure.

 

00;01;06;00 – 00;01;07;08

Alison

Thanks for having us.

 

00;01;07;10 – 00;01;14;21

Dr. Mona

So explain to everyone listening what PSI moms is, how you guys started it, why you’re a part of it, and what the mission is.

 

00;01;14;23 – 00;01;31;19

Alison

Okay, I’ll take that one. This is Allison here. So, Simons, we’re an educational nonprofit organization that the five of us started all together. We started the organization back in, I think, 2017. Layla, is that accurate?

 

00;01;31;22 – 00;01;32;24

Layla

That sounds about right.

 

00;01;32;24 – 00;01;56;16

Alison

Yeah. Think about 2017. The five of us had all been working together since, 2015. And we started working together. Just we wrote an open letter to some celebrity moms, who had said some things that were inconsistent with the scientific consensus. And this inspired a woman named Natalie to make a documentary about us. So that’s how we all started working together.

 

00;01;56;16 – 00;02;21;14

Alison

And then we just we both, we all and enjoy each other’s company as friends. And we enjoyed working together. And so we formed this organization. Sign on to. So we have our websites I’m on Ecom and we’re on all the social media platforms. And we try to share information mostly for parents. It definitely comes from our lens of being parents, but it’s really information for everybody.

 

00;02;21;16 – 00;02;46;03

Layla

Yeah. Basically what we had noticed was that there was a lot of misinformation targeting parents because as parents, we worry so much about our kids, like our kids are our most precious, vulnerable things. And, but we only have so much time and so much energy to worry. And that leads us to really mis assess risk. And we do it pretty often.

 

00;02;46;10 – 00;03;10;08

Layla

So things that are new and unknown to us, we perceive as being particularly risky, but things that we grew up with or things that are parents grew up with, we’re like, I know that’s been around for a long time. That’s perfectly safe. So we do things like letting our kids ride bikes without helmets every now and then, and we think to ourselves, oh, you know, I’ve done that.

 

00;03;10;08 – 00;03;40;13

Layla

It’s safe. It should be fine. Or we text and drive. And we think to ourselves, oh, you know, that that everybody does it, you know, or I’ve done it so many times and nothing bad has happened or I’m particularly careful. And those are ways that we miss assess, risks that are quite dangerous around us. But things that are new, like, new food types, like, right now, there’s, different types of meat that are actually vegan.

 

00;03;40;27 – 00;04;10;06

Layla

Like, there’s a lot of concern about that. Or, we worry about, in this case, vaccines that are new, that are unfamiliar to us. So we write a lot about, about, things that concern parents. And we try to frame it within the proper context of risk and hazards. So, we’ve written, a lot and made infographics on a wide variety of topics, from the risks of gun ownership.

 

00;04;10;06 – 00;04;23;02

Layla

And if you choose to own a gun, how to properly store it, to make sure that your children are as safe as possible. And we’ve also written about food and GMOs and also, of course, vaccines.

 

00;04;23;04 – 00;04;42;29

Dr. Mona

And that’s why I love your account. And I love your website, because you guys I mean, obviously we’re just talking about vaccines right now. In, in regards to Vaccine Awareness Month, but the variety of things that you discuss. So I recently found your website and I, you know, as a pediatrician and a mom who also is Pro-science, I was like, how did I not know about this until now?

 

00;04;42;29 – 00;05;12;04

Dr. Mona

And that’s the power of social media to bring me to you. Because you have so much useful info. You even had something about breastfeeding and formula. A lot of, you know, just debunking myths that people are always, you know, talking about and taking sides on, on social media. So their website, everyone listening, I’m going to be adding it to my show notes and also their social media platforms, because you can search through their, their website for a plethora of different information, like Layla was saying.

 

00;05;12;09 – 00;05;31;24

Dr. Mona

And it is all pro-science, it’s all evidence based, and it really just breaks everything down in a easy to understand way. So even if you’re not a scientist, even if you’re not a mom, you’re going to really enjoy it because or, you know, if you’re not a parent because it’s just really easy, too easy to digest. So again, I’m so glad we’re here.

 

00;05;31;24 – 00;05;42;18

Dr. Mona

Are they’re here today we are going to be talking about vaccination for the purpose of this episode, but I’m sure I’ll have you all on again, hopefully. To talk about other topics as well.

 

00;05;42;21 – 00;05;43;24

Layla

We’d love to.

 

00;05;43;27 – 00;05;49;18

Dr. Mona

What exactly is your guys’s, you know, special, that you guys are kind of involved in. Each of you.

 

00;05;50;04 – 00;06;19;04

Layla

So, I have a PhD from the University of Toronto up in Canada, in molecular genetics, and I did my PhD in a subfield of, human genetics called epigenetics. And I worked on trying to find the genetic basis for a rare disorder called Russell silver syndrome. But since I graduated, I have been working in the biotech sector.

 

00;06;19;04 – 00;06;39;23

Layla

So I’ve been in the biotech sector for about 12 years now, and I specialize in DNA sequencing, and it’s a lot of fun. I really, really love it. Right now I’m a staff scientist in a, sequencing applications company. And very importantly, everything that I say, today’s my own opinion is completely and affiliated with, my my employer.

 

00;06;39;26 – 00;06;53;21

Layla

So, I don’t even think they know I’m on this podcast today, so, yes. It’s it’s completely unaffiliated with my employers. And I, started working for my most recent employer back in January.

 

00;06;53;24 – 00;07;18;18

Alison

And this is Alison now, so I, my PhD from Washington University in Saint Louis is it’s a little confusing there because of how their program is structured. So I was in a large umbrella program called the Biology and Bio Biology and Biomedical Sciences. Sorry about that. And then I was in the molecular genetics and genomics program, but I ended up doing all of my dissertation work in neuroscience.

 

00;07;18;18 – 00;07;43;03

Alison

So I have this genetics piece and this neuroscience piece. And then after my PhD, I went to Emory University, Atlanta, and I did two postdoctoral fellowship, one in the School of Public Health and one in the School of Medicine. And there my training was in neuro toxicology and actually also in AP genetics. So I am currently and for the past four years have been almost exactly four years.

 

00;07;43;03 – 00;08;03;18

Alison

It’s actually a week past the four year anniversary of starting my own lab. So I’m an assistant professor at Michigan State University, and I’m in the Department of Translational Neuroscience. And in my lab, I focus on how environmental exposures affect the development of Parkinson’s disease, with a specific focus on the role of epigenetics in that process.

 

00;08;03;20 – 00;08;11;14

Dr. Mona

And so I love that all five of you obviously have different in terms of different interests and different kind of special specialties, you know, in a way, correct?

 

00;08;11;16 – 00;08;29;19

Alison

Yes. We also have Anastasia is a plant biologist. And she is a regulatory scientist at USDA. And then, Coven and Jenny are journalists and they have just different interests and different background also. So each bring our own unique perspective.

 

00;08;29;27 – 00;08;32;21

Dr. Mona

You guys are like a superhero team.

 

00;08;32;24 – 00;08;38;25

Alison

We do actually have a trading cards on our website that list both our superpowers and our weaknesses.

 

00;08;38;28 – 00;08;56;07

Dr. Mona

That’s awesome. No, it sounds like it. I literally I’m listening to you and obviously I fan I’m fan girling also because I am so I am so pro-science and I like I for everyone listening. I emailed them and when they responded like, hey, we’d love to come on, I was like, oh my gosh. Like they responded, this is so great.

 

00;08;56;10 – 00;09;20;09

Dr. Mona

And so now listening to you all talk about your training and your education, it’s like the, the modern version, version of a superhero. Your guys are moms. You guys are scientists, and I love it. So this is going to be great. So my first question obviously is, you know, you guys are both mothers and scientists. So how do you navigate the information information out there regarding vaccines?

 

00;09;20;09 – 00;09;33;26

Dr. Mona

Because I know a lot of people are going on the internet, going on to Google, going on to Facebook or social media, and I want to know where you guys would start in terms of finding information on vaccines.

 

00;09;33;28 – 00;10;00;17

Alison

So I would say first that you should not turn to social media as your first pass for information. I know that a lot of us have parenting groups, and we have other groups on social media that are, you know, formed around shared interests, but you never really know who on social media someone is when they’re sharing. So, I always turn to medical experts and consensus opinion.

 

00;10;00;17 – 00;10;39;06

Alison

So like I check the CDC website, they have great information about vaccines. I would check the American Academy for Pediatrics. Talk to your own pediatrician. I mean, pediatricians are full of information about vaccines. And, you know, there’s the handouts that you give to us every time we get back to we get our kids vaccinated. And the other thing to look for is when you’re looking for organizations, because there are some organizations that have names that sound like a reputable organization, make sure their message is consistent with the other organizations that, you know, like, there shouldn’t be anything that’s way out there and totally different than what the CDC and the AARP are saying and

 

00;10;39;06 – 00;11;06;23

Alison

the American Medical Association. So I really look for those kind of things. And then outside of expert organizations, over time, as you read more science related content, you’ll learn who is representing those used properly, like there are science journalists that I just know are good. So I have they have earned my trust. And so that’s kind of how I navigate the mess of information that we encounter online.

 

00;11;06;26 – 00;11;49;23

Layla

Yeah, I think the parallel between vaccines, the vaccine quote unquote, debate and the climate science or climate change debate is, is really close. Like, I believe that climate change is in large part driven by human activity. But I’m not a climate scientist. I’m not a, astrophysicist. I, I, I know very, very little about about the science there, but, every reputable, scientific organization in the world has upheld the scientific consensus behind climate change, that climate change is happening and that we’re contributing towards it.

 

00;11;49;25 – 00;12;24;15

Layla

And I view, the science of vaccines very, very similarly. If there’s an organization out there that holds an opinion that differs from the vast, vast, vast majority of scientists, then maybe their viewpoint is incorrect. Okay. And it would be wrong to say that every single scientist in the world believes that climate change is real, in the same way that it would be wrong to believe that every single medical doctor and every single scientist out there say that vaccines are safe.

 

00;12;24;17 – 00;12;55;27

Layla

Okay, but we go by the body of evidence what the vast majority of scientific papers and scientific publications have established, and that is that vaccines are relatively safe compared to not vaccinating. And, that the vaccines we have today are the safest we’ve ever had in history. And thankfully, our children today are vaccinated against more diseases than in the past.

 

00;12;55;29 – 00;13;13;23

Layla

So it’s very, very possible that our children can be one of the healthier generations, especially now with the HPV vaccine that, you know, cuts back on many forms of cancer that, you know, our parents generation or even our generation may, may have had.

 

00;13;13;26 – 00;13;42;20

Dr. Mona

And I’m, you know, I’m happy that you guys are clarifying that not going to social media, not going online because we’re recording this episode during the Covid 19 pandemic. And I am practicing, you know, in a pediatric office. And I am flabbergasted as to how many parents are vaccine hesitant now compared to, you know, five months ago. And as I’m sitting there in my PPE, you know, with masks and gowns and gloves and, you know, we’re in shortages in a way, I’m like looking and I’m like, wait, what?

 

00;13;42;20 – 00;13;56;25

Dr. Mona

What are we what are we talking about here? That you guys are concerned, you know, and I you’re hesitant right now. And then we go through all the different things that they’re concerned about and they say, you know, I read this online and I asked them exactly what you all are saying. I’m like, where did you read it online?

 

00;13;57;02 – 00;14;15;10

Dr. Mona

And I tell them, I’m like, this is a consensus across all of us. I’m sitting in front of you. Also, as a mother and a pediatrician, I would not want your child to get this vaccine if it wasn’t in their best interest. And you know, when they’re like, well, my friend’s friend said this and then their child had this outcome.

 

00;14;15;12 – 00;14;35;00

Dr. Mona

I tell them, I’m like you, you we don’t know the whole story. We, as a pediatric pediatric practice scientist, we’re in the business of helping our children and helping families. That’s all we want. And it’s just it’s so confusing in many ways. As a as a mom and pediatrician, when I’m sitting there, I feel like I’m in this alternate kind of world where I’m like, are we?

 

00;14;35;00 – 00;14;52;24

Dr. Mona

Are we here together? Do we know what this world is right now that we don’t have a vaccine for this Covid virus? And this is what we’re dealing with without, you know, one vaccine? So it’s it’s hard. And I again, and this is why I’m so grateful for you all being on here. Because it’s important that people here.

 

00;14;53;00 – 00;15;10;00

Dr. Mona

Scientist two scientists, a physician and and three mothers that are on this call right now, talking about, you know, how amazing vaccines are and why we vaccinate our children. And for me, my patients. So why did you both decide to vaccinate your children?

 

00;15;10;03 – 00;15;35;13

Layla

So in my case, it never really occurred to me not to vaccinate, right? So I was raised in Venezuela and in Venezuela. Anti-vax just wasn’t a thing, you know, it didn’t that movement didn’t really exist. And my brother was, medical, medical doctor in Venezuela. And so it was my sister in law. And I actually asked them once I moved here about the anti-vax movement in Venezuela.

 

00;15;35;13 – 00;16;10;27

Layla

And they’re like, no, I mean, people literally line up to get their vaccines. He said that there’s a lot of other issues, many, many, many other issues. But vaccines was definitely not one of them. And at the same time, I mean, I mentioned that I went into industry and I have a lot of friends who went into the pharmaceutical industry, and I have a lot of friends who stayed in academia, and none of them, including the ones who went into pharmaceutical industry, none of them didn’t vaccinate their children.

 

00;16;10;27 – 00;16;33;05

Layla

All of them vaccinated their children. None of them were even vaccine hesitant, meaning that they delayed the vaccinations, the vaccinations for their children. They all stuck to the vaccine schedule, and the benefits of it just seemed so, so apparent to me that they prevent deadly diseases like measles, tetanus and as I mentioned previously today, cancer.

 

00;16;33;07 – 00;17;02;15

Alison

And for me, it was similar. It was not. Vaccinating was never on the table. It never really occurred to me to be an option, to not vaccinated and to not do things on the CDC recommended schedule. I don’t even think that when my daughter was born in 2008, I was even really aware of the whole anti-vaccine movement. I kind of had this vague idea that there were, you know, Jenny McCarthy was out there saying some ridiculous things, but who would, I thought, who would listen to Jenny McCarthy?

 

00;17;02;15 – 00;17;28;18

Alison

She was on like, she’s known for Baywatch. Like it didn’t really, like, naively, obviously, in hindsight, but I, I didn’t see how that was going to carry weight. And I mean, that was naive because they that was already pretty big in 2008. But my first real encounter with anti-vaccine sentiment was, when we after I graduated with my PhD and we moved to Atlanta, I didn’t work for a little while, and I stayed home with my daughter.

 

00;17;28;18 – 00;17;50;23

Alison

So we went to like, playgroups, and that’s where I really started to encounter this kind of stuff. And I think for me, with my science background, like it was really apparent to me, like how it how to pass those arguments and figure out where they failed and where they made sense and where they didn’t. So for me, it never really was an issue.

 

00;17;50;23 – 00;17;59;10

Alison

And those things didn’t gain traction for me. So but I can see how if you don’t have the benefit of that training, it can be very, very confusing.

 

00;17;59;12 – 00;18;19;18

Dr. Mona

And why do you think it’s the anti-vaccine movement has gained so much traction, especially in the United States, because I do agree that, you know, like you said, Leila, that you were raised in Venezuela. A lot of the anti-vaccine sentiment is in developed countries, especially the United States. Do you guys have any thoughts as to why that gained so much popularity?

 

00;18;19;20 – 00;18;40;08

Alison

I don’t know, it’s similar to the things we see with Covid right now. There’s like this sense of individual and individuality, individualism. Sorry, that’s the word alone or like that. People think that they can know as much as an expert as part of it. I think we don’t really have a great sense of protecting each other in the whole community.

 

00;18;40;08 – 00;18;49;05

Alison

Like Paul’s for protect your community and wear a mask, get vaccinated. Like, don’t carry as much weight here as they do necessarily in other places.

 

00;18;51;07 – 00;19;17;17

Layla

And I think the same with Covid. There are individuals who stand to benefit from anti-vaccine sentiments, who fund these initiatives and fund these efforts. So I think perhaps in, in North America and in Europe, those groups have more funding and have more money to spread their messages. You know, they’re they’re they’re very strategic. I find in in what they do.

 

00;19;17;21 – 00;19;32;18

Alison

And we do see some of these like anti-vaccine groups that go into developing countries and start to spread their misinformation, that they do some real damage, in places that really, really, really need vaccines.

 

00;19;32;20 – 00;19;51;06

Dr. Mona

And you mentioned earlier on in the, in this conversation that a lot of the these organizations sound official, you know, if you if you look at them when their website and I’ve seen these, I’m not going to name them, but I go on and I’m like, wow, this actually looks like a legitimate sounding science organization when it’s actually not science.

 

00;19;51;19 – 00;20;14;22

Dr. Mona

And then obviously we have the social media movement, which I, I feel, I mean, from the pediatrician mom standpoint, that most of my families who are anti-vaccine or vaccine hesitant are getting this misinformation on social media accounts. So celebrities like you both said earlier on that this your whole organization started with, you know, talking to celebrity moms who were spreading misinformation in a way.

 

00;20;14;22 – 00;20;42;13

Dr. Mona

Right. But I, I see a lot of celebrities, you know, some are using their platform for pro-science and some are going completely the opposite direction. And like you said, it’s just the feeling of I’m I think I know more than the experts. They don’t know anything. And it’s it’s sad. I mean, it’s sad that all of us have, you know, taken our career and our life and done, you know, our service is for helping children and helping, you know, be pro-science.

 

00;20;42;13 – 00;20;47;21

Dr. Mona

And so it’s kind of hard to to watch this all unfold in front of you in a way. And my for me at least.

 

00;20;47;25 – 00;21;09;24

Layla

I think also, again, it’s that issue of risk and and mis assessing risk. So I often give this example. So let’s say you were in a restaurant and the server brings you a glass of water. Okay. You would probably drink that water without thinking twice about it. But let’s say somebody comes up to you and says, hey, I saw your server.

 

00;21;09;26 – 00;21;31;00

Layla

It looked like they were going to do something to your drink. Okay, would you drink that? Right? Probably not. You’d probably throw it out. Okay. But let’s say a very trusted friend came up to you and said, actually, I’m pretty sure I was watching the server the whole time nothing happened. Okay? And especially depending on who this person is, the second person is okay.

 

00;21;31;02 – 00;21;55;25

Layla

You may or may not drink the beverage, all right. But no matter what, no matter what, there’s always going to be this lingering doubt in the back of your head that what if this person is wrong, right? And as you go through that process, the the risks and the consequences change. Like let’s say you paid $30 for that drink or $40 for that drink, okay.

 

00;21;55;25 – 00;22;12;26

Layla

And and you ask for a refund. They’re like, no, we’re not going to refill that for you. You know, you have to pay again. Odds are you actually would go ahead and drink it even, you know, even despite that lingering doubt. But let’s say it was a glass of water. You know, there’s no cost to changing that glass of water.

 

00;22;13;00 – 00;22;35;26

Layla

But what if it was in the middle of a drought and there actually is a cost to changing that glass of water? So our entire scenario changes depending on the information we have. And and depending on the social, economic, all those factors come into play with this simple glass of water. Just because one person told you something and you don’t know if that person is right or not.

 

00;22;35;28 – 00;23;03;29

Layla

Okay, so it’s the same with basically any information we receive, especially if we think that there’s no consequence to it. So let’s say in today there’s not a measles outbreak. Somebody tells us something that makes us doubt the safety of the measles vaccine. And you think to yourself, you know, I’ll wait a little bit longer just to make sure just to be safe.

 

00;23;03;29 – 00;23;25;08

Layla

Right. And we don’t know when there might be a measles outbreak. And it’s because we’re all vaccinating that there is no measles outbreak. Otherwise it would be like Covid part two. Right. So we don’t think about those consequences, and we more readily are willing to accept that misinformation.

 

00;23;25;11 – 00;23;45;12

Alison

And I think just to get back to your original question for this little section, about why why this anti-vaccine movement kind of took hold here, I think we can’t ignore the role that false balance in the media played. And I think that in the past few years, they have gotten much better about this on a variety of issues.

 

00;23;45;14 – 00;24;04;16

Alison

But for a long time, you would never have known that like 99% of the evidence supports the safety and efficacy of currently available vaccines, right? Every news show, every news article was one for one one anti one pro you know like and that I think that a real public disservice.

 

00;24;04;19 – 00;24;23;13

Dr. Mona

I want to also talk about one of the biggest questions I get asked, you know, on my social media and obviously on in my office about vaccine schedules. So a lot of families either are like, it’s just too much that too many vaccines or they want to go off schedule. They want to delay, like you were saying, like the MMR.

 

00;24;23;15 – 00;24;30;18

Dr. Mona

What? Tell me more about the vaccine schedule, how it’s created, why we recommend it to be as such.

 

00;24;30;20 – 00;24;52;19

Alison

Yeah. So I’ll take this one because I’ve actually written a post about this on the Fly Moms blog, and I think the title is where does the vaccine schedule come from? So it’s really easy to find, if that is your question. So the official thing that we say is that the vaccine schedule is set to provide maximum protection against disease as early as possible without complications or interactions between vaccines.

 

00;24;52;22 – 00;25;14;01

Alison

So I’ll explain that in a little more detail as we go through. So first the first question is who sets the schedule. All right. People want to know is it just a bunch of random people off the street. Is it expert. So it is experts. So there’s a the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices is a committee within the CDC that has 15 voting members.

 

00;25;14;22 – 00;25;42;23

Alison

And they are selected by someone from the Department of Health and Human Services, which is the umbrella organization that oversees CDC and NIH and some other organizations in the federal government. And so these members, 14 of them have to have expertise in vaccines and the immune system, pediatricians, internal medicine, nursing, family medicine, public health, infectious disease, like all those related fields.

 

00;25;42;25 – 00;26;06;08

Alison

And then there’s one consumer representative who is there to provide perspective on the social and community aspects of vaccination. So some of the things that Leila was talking about, like all these other things that come into vaccines that aren’t expressly the science, there are also some nonvoting members, like representatives from federal agencies who are involved in immunization programs are on the committee.

 

00;26;06;23 – 00;26;25;05

Alison

And then there are other nonvoting members from other organizations with related expertise. So I think that that’s like from the American Academy of Pediatrics and stuff like that. So they meet three times a year. So they review the data three times a year and make changes to the vaccine, the vaccine schedule, if there’s new data to warrant to change.

 

00;26;25;05 – 00;26;41;15

Alison

So if they’re finding out that some new formulation of a vaccine has some unanticipated side effects, they will change the vaccine schedule. If a new vaccine has come out, they will decide if they should incorporate it. So this is done three times a year. So this is done very regularly. So that’s why sometimes you do see changes.

 

00;26;43;02 – 00;27;02;28

Alison

And so the things that they consider when they test the schedule. So if we talk about how they’re actually setting it. So the first thing that they do is the vaccines have to be approved by the FDA. So that means they have to have demonstrated both safety and efficacy, because that’s the things that the FDA requires for the approval of any medication or medical device.

 

00;27;03;00 – 00;27;25;03

Alison

They also consider the severity of the disease. So a disease that is more severe in children, they will try to put earlier. So you’re protecting them earlier when they’re going to have the most severe effects. They also look at like the background prevalence of the disease. If there’s no vaccine. So they prioritize diseases that are more common and you’re more likely to get.

 

00;27;25;05 – 00;27;50;03

Alison

They also consider how effective vaccines are at different ages because some vaccines are your immune. Your immune system responds differently at different ages to different vaccines. So they consider that to make sure that you’re getting the vaccine at an age when your immune system can respond to it. They also look at whether vaccines interact, and they consider whether there are any allergies or medical contraindications.

 

00;27;50;03 – 00;28;12;09

Alison

And those are all the things that go into those vaccine information sheets that you get when you take your kids for their vaccines. So they consider all of these things. It’s very complicated. And all of this information is actually available on the CDC website. You can see the minutes and videos of all their meetings, everything that they decide the full list of contraindications and precautions, and they list.

 

00;28;12;12 – 00;28;20;14

Alison

So that’s, that’s who creates the vaccine schedule and how how they make the vaccine schedule.

 

00;28;20;16 – 00;28;37;07

Dr. Mona

So do you think, I mean, in your opinion and obviously I, I think we might agree. Do you think that it’s too much too early because that’s one thing parents are like, well, why would my child, my baby need so many in the first year of life? And what are your thoughts? Or what would you say to a family who’s, you know, more hesitant about that?

 

00;28;37;10 – 00;29;05;08

Alison

So I have two points to respond to that. So first, the other way you see this is like am I overloading their immune system with all these shots? It’s like a similar concern there. So when you get a disease, your your immune system is even more challenged than when you get the vaccine for that disease. That’s one reason that we prefer vaccine acquired immunity over natural immunity, right, is because you’re controlling the number of antigens and you’re getting immunity without getting sick.

 

00;29;06;05 – 00;29;31;10

Alison

The other thing that comes up is that so in 1980, so, like my vaccine schedule, I was born in 1978, the vaccine schedule protected against only seven diseases with 15,000 antigens in the vaccines. So I think the stat is that in 2017, the vaccine schedule now protects against 18 or, sorry, 16 diseases, but only 173 antigens.

 

00;29;31;13 – 00;30;06;28

Alison

So vaccines have actually gotten much, much more targeted, and protect against more diseases with like less activation of your immune system. So I think, you know, the things that we’re exposed to in our daily life, and if we were exposed to the disease is much more overwhelming to your immune system than the vaccine itself. And then the other thing that is really important is this vaccine schedule is based on data and testing and the deliberation of this very large committee of people with a lot of expertise and collective knowledge.

 

00;30;06;28 – 00;30;28;01

Alison

Right. So if you pick an alternate schedule or delay vaccines, what where does that even come from? It comes from nowhere. Like someone literally made it up. And so it’s not supported by data. You might have vaccine interactions. You’re also increasing the risk to your child because maybe you’re delaying something that’s very much at risk to younger children.

 

00;30;28;01 – 00;30;42;05

Alison

And now you’ve waited. And so they might they might not build up sufficient immunity. They might not have immunity when they need it. So to the way that we like to say it is that delaying vaccinations adds risk but does without adding any benefit.

 

00;30;42;07 – 00;30;58;18

Layla

Yeah. And it also means more doctors visit. I mean, the the vaccine schedule to my understanding, is that to some extent it’s it’s built around child. The the wellness child visits the the well-child visits.

 

00;30;58;21 – 00;31;14;29

Alison

Yeah. So that’s another thing that they built into the schedule that I didn’t talk about is I think it’s in the post, but they try to. So some of the combo vaccines, and the vaccines you get at the same time are so that you don’t have to make as many visits to the doctor and that you don’t have as many needles.

 

00;31;15;06 – 00;31;32;08

Alison

Right? Like we do Mars three DTaP is three diseases, so it’s one injection, but multiple diseases, so that they’re thinking about all those things so that people are more likely to get them, because we had to go back to the doctor every month for a different vaccine would probably be much harder to get kids in. Oh, yeah.

 

00;31;32;11 – 00;32;04;01

Dr. Mona

And like you said, even perfectly like the MMR is three different illnesses. So measles, mumps, rubella and even within, like different practices have different, different vaccines. But like for example, pediatrics is a very common vaccine that includes three different components, meaning Deet, your DTaP, your polio and your hepatitis B. So you’re getting polio, which is one hepatitis B, and then the DTaP is diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis in one needle, which, you know, a lot of parents who are hesitant are like, well, that’s too many.

 

00;32;04;02 – 00;32;26;08

Dr. Mona

You know, too much at once. And you, like you said perfectly, it’s actually better and it’s studied, but these are safe to do together, and it’s better to do it that way rather than coming back again, doing a needle again, doing more injections and more visits. And the other thing that I think maybe we can talk about is boosters, meaning parents like, well, why do I have to get the, the pediatrics?

 

00;32;26;14 – 00;32;49;20

Dr. Mona

And I’m giving an example because different practices may have different combinations of these vaccines, but for example being pediatrics. And then we also do something called the prisoner which is a pneumococcal vaccine. We do something called the Hib meningitis. And then we do rotavirus at like the two month, four month and six month. And parents are like, well, why would we have to do the same vaccines three rounds.

 

00;32;49;22 – 00;33;07;06

Dr. Mona

And I think people need to understand that you it’s all study that. Hey, you can’t give all of the immunity in one shot. You have to give it a little bit, and then you maybe get about 50% immunity, and then you get a booster two months later to build up the immunity even more, because the body needs time to actually build an immune response.

 

00;33;07;06 – 00;33;11;07

Dr. Mona

And then you can’t overdo that in just one big load. Correct?

 

00;33;11;09 – 00;33;39;22

Layla

Yeah. So, actually I have a I have a story about this. So I was born, at a time in Canada when children only got when MMR shot. And it was later, found that, not enough people were getting immunity with just one shot. It was, around 90 to 95%. And we needed, more of the population to, to have immunity, to, to protect our communities.

 

00;33;39;27 – 00;34;02;28

Layla

So they increased the number of vaccinations to two. But I slipped through the cracks because I moved to Venezuela, and I didn’t get that second one. So later on in college, when I, when I went back and, I needed, my vaccination record, to, to to get into grad school because we were going to work with, with, biological samples.

 

00;34;03;06 – 00;34;24;11

Layla

They asked for my vaccination record, and I went to my doctor, and they did a titer to see if I was still immune against measles, and I wasn’t. So, I had to get another booster shot. And, I’m so happy that, that I did my titers to make sure. So, and that’s, again, back to Allison’s point about the vaccine schedule.

 

00;34;24;11 – 00;34;46;04

Layla

That’s data that was gained over time, right? They looked at the evidence. They saw that not enough of our population was getting immunity with just a single shot. So they bumped it up to two. And, and, I think that’s a good example of why we need, the multiple shots. It’s the same with the HPV vaccine.

 

00;34;46;20 – 00;35;13;29

Layla

Depending on when you get your, your HPV vaccine, the number of shots that you get varies. And, if you’re older, I understand that you need more shots then when than when you’re younger. Then when you get it on the, on the currently recommended schedule. So, yeah, stick to the schedule and get the number of recommended shots to make sure that you’re immune to the immune, against the diseases.

 

00;35;14;01 – 00;35;36;19

Alison

There’s also been a similar issue. I think it’s with the pertussis vaccine. So the pertussis vaccine, there is a change in formulation to reduce side effects. And so the recommendation was for one dose. And then or maybe it was two, whatever the recommendation for the doses were at that time, they they were finding that we were having like some more cases of pertussis than previously.

 

00;35;36;19 – 00;35;57;18

Alison

And they figured out that it was because of the new formulation. While it did reduce side effects, was also not producing as robust an immune response so that they realized that they needed a booster. And so by doing the booster, what you were able to do was keep the side effects low by using the new formulation. But by having the booster, you got the same level of prolonged immunity.

 

00;35;57;20 – 00;35;59;19

Alison

So it’s a balancing act.

 

00;35;59;22 – 00;36;19;10

Dr. Mona

And I think another, you know, another comment was about like you were mentioning about your titers being, you know, not up to date for your, MMR, the, the chickenpox vaccine that I think came out in the 90s, I believe, I don’t know, 95 or mid 90s and I’m, I’m an 80s baby. So I was born in 85 and I ended up same thing.

 

00;36;19;10 – 00;36;37;20

Dr. Mona

Lila. Like I went to, you know, went through medical school process and I checked my titers and it was something called equivocal, which means that I’m not fully vaccinated. So I had to do my chickenpox, again. And do I have to do the whole series again? Because I wasn’t for some reason, I wasn’t responding to the initial varicella vaccine.

 

00;36;37;27 – 00;36;57;03

Dr. Mona

And that is so important because if I had never known I mean, obviously I’m in health care, I’m around children. Yes, we vaccinate chickenpox now, so we’re not seeing it as much, but it can happen. And I want to talk about the chicken pox and, you know, use that as a segue to talk about chickenpox, because a lot of parents will say, well, the diseases are eliminated.

 

00;36;57;03 – 00;37;10;22

Dr. Mona

So why I don’t see chickenpox anymore? So why do I have to vaccinate my children for something that doesn’t exist? Polio doesn’t exist. Why am I vaccinating my child against polio? So do you guys have a comment about that?

 

00;37;10;25 – 00;37;35;15

Layla

Yeah. So so chicken pox is I mean, of of all the vaccines, it’s the one I hear most where parents because they themselves, just like us got chicken pox or in your case didn’t get chicken pox. They got chicken pox and they all survived. They’re like, hey, you know, it’s a week off school. It’s it’s a little bit of itchiness.

 

00;37;35;16 – 00;38;02;13

Layla

It’s a little bit of a rash. And then it’s fine. And I have and I have the. This is my chicken pox scar right here. A constant reminder of chicken pox. So. But chicken pox can have real consequences. So in the United States, before, for the vaccine, 100 children died each year from chicken pox, and 9000 children were hospitalized each year from complications of the chicken pox.

 

00;38;02;16 – 00;38;26;20

Layla

And there’s also a real socio economic impact of chicken pox that we often don’t think of. Sure, some parents might think, oh, it’s a week off school. You know, it’s not a big deal. But for some parents, that’s a big deal. A week off of work is something that they cannot afford, and a week off of work can mean the difference between being able to afford your rent or not.

 

00;38;26;22 – 00;38;54;22

Layla

Okay, so when we let our children get something like chicken pox, sure they might be fine, but what about the other members of our community who might get chicken pox from our children, right, who may not be able to afford it? And another really important point about chicken pox is that once you get chicken pox, once you get it, quote unquote, in its natural form, the virus lies latent in our bodies and crops up later on as shingles and shingles.

 

00;38;54;29 – 00;38;58;18

Layla

My mom has gotten it, my aunt has gotten it, and my grandma got it.

 

00;38;58;21 – 00;39;01;14

Alison

I had it, I had it in my 30s.

 

00;39;01;14 – 00;39;30;01

Layla

Not oh my gosh. Yeah, it’s my mom said that once the vaccine for shingles came out, she was lining up to get it right because it is so painful and so horrible. And unfortunately, as I understand it, the chicken, shingles pops up oftentimes when our immune system is weakened. So, for example, my grandmother was actually in the hospital because, she had broken her neck and, she got shingles at that point in her life.

 

00;39;30;02 – 00;39;53;07

Layla

You know, she’s it was it was not not a good time. I mean, it’s never a good time, but I mean, it can have really painful, devastating consequences. So getting the chicken pox vaccine, also prevents you from getting shingles, which is, two and one. Pretty awesome.

 

00;39;53;15 – 00;40;11;25

Alison

So I wanted to tackle the second part of your question, which was more generally about like the diseases are eliminated. Why do I still need the vaccine? So this is vaccines are kind of a victim of their own success. So the people who are parents now, we have not seen these diseases in the same way that like our grandparents saw these diseases.

 

00;40;12;29 – 00;40;37;16

Alison

So and the reason we don’t see them is because people have vaccinated. So there’s kind of this like strange cycle happening, except that when people start vaccinating, like we’ve seen with measles outbreaks in recent years and other diseases that these diseases return because they’re actually still present in our population. So I wanted to clarify a couple of words and what they mean.

 

00;40;37;16 – 00;41;01;15

Alison

So eradication it means that world right. Worldwide transmission of a disease is zero. There are no remaining cases of the disease in the world. And so at that point, only when a disease has been eradicated are no intervention measures necessary. So that’s when you don’t need a vaccine. And so we’ve only ever in the history of humans eradicated one disease and that is smallpox.

 

00;41;01;15 – 00;41;27;22

Alison

And it took a global immunization program led by the W.H.O.. And so the last known natural case of smallpox was in 1977. So we don’t get the smallpox vaccine anymore because it does not exist. It only exists in a few very well guarded laboratories around the world. Elimination, on the other hand, is that is when transmission within a specific geographic area, like a specific country, is no longer active.

 

00;41;27;24 – 00;41;51;15

Alison

So when a disease is eliminated, you still need vaccination. An intervention measures because you have to keep that disease eliminated. As soon as you let up your guard, the disease is going to make new inroads. And I feel like we’re all learning a lesson with this. Living through the Covid pandemic right now, like we’re all seeing, like you can get your numbers down, but I all you need is one person to come in and people not take measures and the disease is going to gain foothold.

 

00;41;52;09 – 00;42;20;17

Alison

And so this happens because people travel and stuff. But if people don’t aren’t immune, the disease can spread more. So measles was actually eliminated from the US. It was declared eliminated in I think 2000. But we’ve had multiple outbreaks because there are pockets of unvaccinated people. So when someone travels to a country where measles is not eliminated and they bring it back to the US, if they interact with a pocket of unvaccinated people, there could be an outbreak.

 

00;42;20;17 – 00;42;39;22

Alison

And so we still consider measles eliminated in the US because those outbreaks have been contained. There’s some like official number, like an outbreak goes on for so long that we won’t be eliminated anymore. So the point is that a disease is eliminated. You still need vaccines until we can eradicate it.

 

00;42;39;25 – 00;42;58;08

Dr. Mona

Thank you so much for the terminology, because that actually is very helpful for people to hear. And like you said, it really is kind of what we’re dealing with right now with the Covid 19 pandemic. And I have two comments. One was about what Layla said about the chicken pox and how, you know, obviously the shingles, which, by the way, I agree with you.

 

00;42;58;13 – 00;43;18;29

Dr. Mona

I have not have shingles, but I have friends who had chicken pox illness as a child and end up having to miss work as an adult, multiple times for shingles outbreaks. And it’s heartbreaking because we vaccinate now because we you’re not going to get the shingles from the vaccine. You’re going to get shingles from the active, chicken pox infection.

 

00;43;19;06 – 00;43;39;15

Dr. Mona

And that is a complication that we don’t want for our children. The other complication that we I want to bring up for chicken pox, which people don’t talk about, is hearing loss. So chicken pox can lead to something called vestibular neuritis, which is basically inflammation of the vestibular nerve, which helps our hearing. And that happens. It can last for months, sometimes even years.

 

00;43;39;15 – 00;44;03;28

Dr. Mona

And we’ve seen this and again, as pediatricians, the reason why we are so pro-vaccine and every pediatrician should, if there’s a pediatrician you’re going to that’s not pro-vaccine. You really need to question your, you know that doctor a little bit. It’s it’s because we’ve seen these illnesses and we’ve seen these the sequelae of chickenpox, the sequelae of measles, mumps, rubella, the sequelae of, pertussis, obviously.

 

00;44;03;28 – 00;44;27;02

Dr. Mona

Yes. I have not seen, polio, I’ve not seen diphtheria. But like Allison said, it’s because the vaccine program is working. I don’t want to see diphtheria. I don’t want to see polio again. And there are people around the world living with polio. There are people who are waiting for vaccines because their friend down the street, in their small village, wherever has polio.

 

00;44;27;04 – 00;44;47;09

Dr. Mona

And so it’s in a way, it’s really hard when I am so pro child and so pro vaccine that when I think about all the kids around the world that are just waiting to get these lifesaving vaccines, and how in a privileged country like the United States, you know, we’re so lucky to have vaccines and if you can look at it that way, this is something that is life saving.

 

00;44;47;09 – 00;45;08;00

Dr. Mona

It’s something that can really, really prevent our children from getting the complications. And it is about benefit and risk, because the benefit of a vaccine outweighs the risk of any sort of vaccine. Side effect by by far, you know, and that’s something that we can maybe talk about at the end. Because parents come in and say, well, you know what?

 

00;45;08;00 – 00;45;35;14

Dr. Mona

If I get the side effect and like, the side effects are extremely rare. And like Allison said earlier, if they the three times a year, if the CDC was saying that, hey, ooh, this vaccine, something’s going on, they would pull it. And even earlier than that, if they heard that there was something going on, there is regulations. And we as pediatricians in the office, like I’m always looking out for my patients whenever they come back at a four month visit, six month visit, a 15 month visit, I don’t care.

 

00;45;35;14 – 00;45;56;15

Dr. Mona

I ask, how did they do with the vaccines? Because to me, I know that there’s bigger bodies taking care of it. But for my integrity, I’m also going to make sure that I’m doing my due diligence in promoting vaccine safety. It’s important that parents hear that, that not only are the big bodies doing it, but every day pediatricians in their offices are looking day to day.

 

00;45;56;15 – 00;46;12;27

Dr. Mona

Hey, okay, well, someone said they had maybe some soreness. Someone had a little bit of dizziness after the vaccine. But we’re not seeing these horror stories that are being blasted all over social media. And if we did, we wouldn’t vaccinate our children or vaccinate our patients because that’s not the business we’re in, you know?

 

00;46;12;29 – 00;46;33;07

Alison

So we had, little anecdote about that. My daughter is just turned 12, and so she had her second dose of HPV, which when I told her before her 11th birthday, her 11th year checkup, that she was gonna have to get a vaccine, you know, she grumbled about it, and I was like, but but it’s a it’s a vaccine.

 

00;46;33;07 – 00;46;52;04

Alison

It’s going to lower your risk of cancer. And she was like, it’s a vaccine that prevents cancer. And I was like, yeah. And she was like, that’s really cool. And she was like, oh no, they prevent cancer. Like it’s a big deal. But it did like predicted side effect, known side effects of it. Some people get very dizzy.

 

00;46;52;06 – 00;46;52;29

Dr. Mona

 

00;46;53;01 – 00;46;57;23

Alison

And so she had the vaccine and that’s also the 11 year, I think she got she had three shot.

 

00;46;57;23 – 00;47;00;23

Dr. Mona

Yeah. Tetanus. Lauren Titus usually and HPV. Yeah.

 

00;47;01;00 – 00;47;16;06

Alison

Yeah. So she felt, you know, a little woozy. So which we had our lay down, we gave her some water. We just kind of hung out for like ten, 15 minutes, and then she felt better. We went on our way, so we went back to the doctor and they were like, oh, we looked in our chart. We remember that last year she felt dizzy.

 

00;47;16;08 – 00;47;35;21

Alison

So why don’t we give her the shot? Let’s make sure she’s hydrated before, have her lay down and just just plan for you to stay put for ten, 15 minutes until until you’re ready. And she ended up feeling totally fine this time. But they they’re tracking that the doctors are keeping track of these things because they don’t want you to feel badly.

 

00;47;35;23 – 00;47;38;00

Alison

We want you to feel healthy.

 

00;47;38;02 – 00;48;06;04

Dr. Mona

Yes. Thank you. And I love hearing the the story because it’s important that I and I that’s exactly the example I was saying when dizziness because I’m thinking of the HPV, HPV vaccine. And like I think Allison mentioned earlier, the CDC website is not hiding any of this information. If you actually go on and I’ll put that in my show notes, they actually list every single vaccine and the known side effects, which is, for example, HPV, the syncope, the common side effects of any vaccine, which is like fever or redness at the site.

 

00;48;06;08 – 00;48;29;15

Dr. Mona

But you can actually see all of it and they’re not hiding information. And, you know, another thing I hear is that, well, the CDC, they’re hiding the stuff from us. And it with all this pandemic, you know, stuff going on, it’s like, well, no, they’re not reputable. I’m like, no, they they actually are. And I promise you, if you actually just took the time to go on that website, it is it is a wealth of information and it’s actually really honest.

 

00;48;29;15 – 00;48;47;06

Dr. Mona

And I, I tell my families when they’re like, well, how come you don’t give vaccine inserts to all of your patients? Like, you know, like, parents, some some parents want the ingredient list. And I say the ingredients are all obviously, do you know how to interpret those ingredients? Like, what will you do when you read all those ingredients?

 

00;48;47;06 – 00;49;17;16

Dr. Mona

The ingredients are basically formulated in a safe dose, like you said, and studied for efficacy and safety, by the FDA. And that’s so the really reading the ingredients aren’t going to serve a purpose, but you can go on the CDC website. We do give visits, which are vaccine information sheets that go over the side effects. But that kind of brings me to my next question about parents, you know, commonly saying about the unsafe ingredients and the unsafe toxins and that they’re not, you know, the ingredients are not okay for children.

 

00;49;17;21 – 00;49;23;20

Dr. Mona

Do you guys? I mean, I know you probably don’t agree, but why? What would you say to parents in that standpoint?

 

00;49;23;23 – 00;49;53;20

Layla

The ingredient in the vaccines can sound really scary. And so, for example, formaldehyde is in the, an ingredient in, in vaccines. And every ingredient that’s in there is there for a reason. In the case of formaldehyde, it’s there to make sure that the virus is in active and formaldehyde. When I use it in the lab, I have to use proper precautionary, measures.

 

00;49;53;20 – 00;50;18;07

Layla

I have to wear gloves and use a few hand, all that kind of stuff. But that’s a bottle of pure formaldehyde. You know, 100% formaldehyde that I have to treat so carefully. The amount in a vaccine is, is very, very low, and formaldehyde is actually naturally occurring. It’s found in a lot of fruits, and it’s found in a lot of our foods.

 

00;50;18;22 – 00;50;49;06

Layla

Pears have lots of formaldehyde. Lots in quotation marks here. And, the amount in a vaccine is pretty comparable to, what we see in pears. And I don’t think any of us worry about our children eating pears. In fact, if my child ate more pears, I’d probably be happier. Right? So, But formaldehyde in large, large, large quantities can be dangerous.

 

00;50;49;06 – 00;51;11;23

Layla

But the amounts that we get, have been formulated appropriately, so that they are safe for our children and safe for ourselves when we need booster shots or when we need shots as adults. So, but but vaccine safety, I think, is something that all of us worry about. And as you pointed out, they go through a lot of testing.

 

00;51;11;23 – 00;51;42;29

Layla

They go through clinical trials, not just in the United States. So even if you do worry about the independence of the CDC during these times or the independence of, of, you know, our scientific institutions in the United States right now, the CDC guidelines on vaccinations aligns with those of every other nation. It would have to be some huge, massive conspiracy involving millions of people.

 

00;51;43;02 – 00;52;08;11

Layla

All right. In order for vaccines not to have been safe throughout this entire time. And we don’t get vaccines any more than what we actually need. As Alison pointed out, the vaccine schedule is constantly reviewed. So, for example, when I lived in Venezuela, I used to get shots against the yellow fever because yellow fever was pretty common in Venezuela.

 

00;52;08;14 – 00;52;45;03

Layla

But in the United States, in North American Europe, nobody gets a shot against yellow fever, right? Because in that case, it’s possible that the risks of the vaccine might outweigh the benefits, because the risk of yellow fever in the United States, in North America is so, so, so incredibly low. Right? But if there’s a yellow fever outbreak at some point in time in the United States, then that those guidelines might shift and trials for, these safety trials for drugs, for vaccines continue over years and years.

 

00;52;45;11 – 00;53;15;12

Layla

So, for example, for the HPV vaccine, since it’s relatively new in our vaccine schedule, there’s still ongoing studies to see just how long our immunity for HPV lasts. So, for example, if somebody’s got the HPV vaccine ten years ago, 20 years ago, are they still immune, against HPV? And or do we need to add a booster shot to the schedule to make sure that we remain immune against HPV?

 

00;53;15;14 – 00;53;40;21

Layla

So, I think for that reason, parents can, take, can can, you know, feel good over the fact that the guidelines in the United States pretty much align with guidelines everywhere else in the world, about the ingredients and the content and the vaccine schedule itself.

 

00;53;40;24 – 00;53;58;29

Alison

And if I can just tie it back to my current my part about the, how the vaccine schedule comes about. So I mentioned two things, right? So the ingredients are part of what is tested. So when the vaccines are approved for safety and efficacy, that is the vaccine in total like the vaccine with all of those ingredients.

 

00;53;58;29 – 00;54;17;28

Alison

So yes, and it’s nice to see what’s in there in a list and know what’s going in there. But it’s the whole thing that is declared safe and that works by the FDA. And then the other point about yellow fever was I mentioned that they consider the prevalence of the disease, right when they decide. So in the U.S., the prevalence is low.

 

00;54;17;28 – 00;54;28;00

Alison

So we it’s like non-existent, right? So we don’t get yellow fever vaccines here. So that that’s how those things fit into determining the vaccine schedule.

 

00;54;28;03 – 00;54;52;17

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And it brings up a good point about Covid. So I get a lot of parents worried about, well, I don’t want to give my child a Covid vaccine. And I actually, you know, as a pediatrician looking at, you know, the data right now with children, I am not sure if they’ll actually in the first round, even introduce a Covid vaccine for children, because still, even though it’s prevalent, the Covid virus children are not having the complications nearly as much as an adult.

 

00;54;52;17 – 00;55;15;15

Dr. Mona

So is the benefit there to vaccinate? Probably not when the risk of the actual illness is not that high. So I you know, you mentioned that about the benefit and the risk of, you know, yellow fever and prevalence is one thing, but also the fact that is this even causing a problem. And I talked about it on the other episode with Doctor Baldwin, how we look at illnesses that cause harm, like for example, that I mentioned about the chicken pox.

 

00;55;15;19 – 00;55;40;04

Dr. Mona

We look at illnesses that cause morbidity and mortality. So there’s deaths associated. There’s obviously severe hospitalizations. So it’s not like we’re creating vaccines for every single illness a child goes through. I mentioned on it the other episode that like hand, foot and mouth, it’s one of the most common, common viruses that children get. There will never be a vaccine for hand, foot and mouth because there’s no morbidity and mortality associated with it.

 

00;55;40;04 – 00;55;57;13

Dr. Mona

Yes, kids have to stay home for a week, but there’s no long term sequelae of hand, foot and mouth. Maybe some peeling skin like for on the fingernails. But it’s it’s really important that parents here are that that we are not creating. When I say we like the medical community is not and scientific community are not creating things just to create it.

 

00;55;57;13 – 00;56;14;29

Dr. Mona

It comes with a purpose and it comes because, hey, this thing is killing kids or this thing is actually causing a lot of complications for children, flu and every other thing that we vaccinate for, it’s because of the illnesses and it’s because of the outcomes that it can have for children. So I think that’s such a key thing.

 

00;56;14;29 – 00;56;24;00

Dr. Mona

And this whole Covid thing I parents are still so worried and I’m like, wait for it. If it does become approved, there’s going to be a reason, but it may not be. I don’t know if you guys agree.

 

00;56;24;17 – 00;56;44;23

Alison

I hadn’t really thought about it that way. I had thought about it in that probably what will happen is hopefully what will happen is that a vaccine will go through all of the required normal trials that it needs to go through before you start vaccinating people. I hope that to all those rules, I hope we don’t try to bypass them.

 

00;56;44;23 – 00;57;09;06

Alison

They’re critical and important, and they’re part of the reason why we trust the vaccine schedule and we trust the vaccines we have. So I hope that it goes that way and we do all those things. Once we have that, I think they will start vaccinating high risk groups first, like the people who are having severe outcomes. And also the people who are most likely to be exposed.

 

00;57;09;06 – 00;57;31;08

Alison

So probably medical professionals. Right. So you’ll vaccinate those people first and then because kids are not getting as sick when they do get sick. And if you control spread and the rest of the population, then we protect the kids that way. And so the kids might not need the vaccine if we protect, if we stop spread and everybody else.

 

00;57;31;11 – 00;57;40;01

Alison

And that that top that topic could open up a can of worms for a whole other topic that not we need like eight more hours.

 

00;57;40;03 – 00;57;40;22

Dr. Mona

Yeah.

 

00;57;40;24 – 00;58;08;13

Layla

I was talking I was talking to my parents the other day and we were discussing, oh, you know, who would get the vaccine first? And they, you know, grumble, grumble. These kids should get the vaccine first. They go to these parties and they’re super spreaders. And like, you know, actually there’s a point there, you know, so the people who seem to be spreading the virus, most are asymptomatic people, you know, of a certain age range, maybe, you know, that would be one way to, to, to handle it.

 

00;58;08;13 – 00;58;14;28

Layla

But I have no idea. And I’m glad I’m not one of the decision makers for that because it cannot be easy.

 

00;58;15;01 – 00;58;38;26

Dr. Mona

Absolutely. And I think it’s important to remember that if they when they do go through it, like when they go through the approval, all of us as pediatricians and the scientific community are going to review the data on it. Right. Like you said that I agree, I don’t want them to bypass just to get it out. I want them to go through the phases, and I want to see the side effects that they’re reporting, minor side effects, whatever, to weigh, benefit and risk.

 

00;58;39;09 – 00;58;57;28

Dr. Mona

And that is something very important that parents need to remember that there are pediatricians are doing this on a constant basis. I mean, I know I am I can’t speak for every pediatrician, but we any time a vaccine comes to us, we think about, okay, what’s going on with this? What are the side effects? What are, you know, what’s the benefit, what’s the risk?

 

00;58;58;03 – 00;59;19;19

Dr. Mona

And I really hope that parents hear me so clearly when I say this, because it is a a bunch of people working together to assure safety for our patients so that we’re not seeing your kids sick in our office. The the last comment or last question I have, and I cannot thank you both enough for your time. Today is the last myth I hear.

 

00;59;19;19 – 00;59;40;09

Dr. Mona

And and again, I know may take a little longer, but we we can briefly talk about it is the Jenny McCarthy thing where she and also Andrew Wakefield, which is a doctor that now is now got his license revoked and how vaccines cause autism, basically. You know, the scientific evidence shows that that’s not true. What are your guys’s thoughts?

 

00;59;40;15 – 01;00;13;27

Layla

So I think this is one of the longest lingering myths and concerns about for parents, that there’s some sort of link between autism and, and vaccines. And I think that there are very there are very few topics that have been studied as thoroughly, where so much money has been invested. Then to try to identify whether or not there is a link between autism and vaccines.

 

01;00;13;29 – 01;00;50;19

Layla

And at this point in time, there are hundreds of thousands of patients. And that’s without any exaggeration, that have participated in studies, where they’ve tried to find links and they have not they’re not since the original paper, which has now been disproven and, was retracted. And now we know that the original doctor Who lost his license, who did those studies, did those studies unethically and tested on patients who were when he wasn’t supposed to.

 

01;00;51;21 – 01;01;21;29

Layla

No association has has been found. And that study, the original study was done on a handful of patients, and there was immediate concern in the scientific community and in the medical community that there might be a link, between, vaccine and autism. And a lot of measures were taken and those measures had severe consequences. You know, many parents stopped vaccinating their children.

 

01;01;22;13 – 01;01;54;10

Layla

The that that delayed vaccine schedule as we know it today, arose, from this myth. Some countries, rolled back the MMR vaccine programs that they had and there were measles outbreaks and children, unfortunately died because measles is a very, very contagious, very dangerous, disease. So but we know now that autism is, primarily a genetic condition.

 

01;01;54;28 – 01;02;28;09

Layla

And that there’s no association between vaccines and autism. And not only that, but individuals within the autistic community have highlighted that this myth can do legitimate harm to their community by leading to some sort of belief that, individuals with autism are somehow damaged or that they’re broken, or that something happened to them. And this, really puts the autistic community on the outside.

 

01;02;28;11 – 01;02;43;28

Layla

Right? So, I think we need to reassess our, our beliefs around this myth. And, really, there is no evidence supporting the fact that there’s any sort of association between autism and vaccines.

 

01;02;44;01 – 01;03;09;12

Alison

I’m also going to add one tiny little thing that’s not related to vaccines, but related to some terminology, just because I think it’s important to be sensitive to the way that people like to be referred to. There are many people in the autistic community who prefer the phrase autistic individual, as opposed to individual with autism. And I know there’s there’s a lot of disagreement between, like, parents of autistic kids and autistic adults and how they feel about that.

 

01;03;09;12 – 01;03;23;09

Alison

But I just wanted to mention that because it goes into this, this whole idea that Layla was talking about, like, like that this myth is really damaging to a community of people. And so and we deserve to listen to what they have to say.

 

01;03;23;12 – 01;03;46;18

Dr. Mona

Absolutely. And I am going to be linking actually, a lot of those are, articles and research studies that show that there is no correlation. Those are actually everyone listening. Those are actually on the AP website. And I’m going to link that for you in my show notes because like Layla said, there are hundreds of research studies. And actually the most recent recent one was actually, I believe this year or maybe late last year.

 

01;03;46;18 – 01;04;07;14

Dr. Mona

I can’t remember the exact date, but a lot of research, they’re constantly looking just to debunk this one article. That was obviously not a good design study. That was done, I think, in the early 2000 by Andrew Wakefield. But this is important that we we understand that it is not correlated. It is a genetic condition. I really appreciate you bringing that up so eloquently.

 

01;04;07;16 – 01;04;29;24

Alison

The other thing, the other like unintended, I don’t know if unintended consequences the right word. But the other thing that happens because so many studies have been done on this one question, even though there’s like, we know this, like there’s so much evidence we really don’t need to spend any more money and any more time enrolling any more patients and any more studies to settle this.

 

01;04;29;24 – 01;04;50;20

Alison

There’s no debate. There’s a lot of other questions that we have in science and in vaccines and in disease that we could be studying. And just like we don’t have infinite resources, we have finite resources. And where these resources are going to answer a question that we already know the answer to. And that to me is really frustrating.

 

01;04;51;05 – 01;05;09;21

Alison

And I also wanted to add that we have another post on our blog that are there, the exact title I don’t remember off the top of my head, but something like are there actually more cases of autism? So there’s rising diagnosis, but there’s a question of whether that’s actually rising prevalence of disease. And so there’s a lot of factors that go into that.

 

01;05;09;21 – 01;05;28;29

Alison

And it’s a stat that gets thrown out all the time. And I do a lot of neurodevelopmental work in my lab. And the stack gets thrown around even at the highest levels of PhD scientists. And I’m always like, wait, let’s let’s reconsider your your argument here about whether there really is you hear the term epidemic of autism.

 

01;05;29;05 – 01;05;53;02

Dr. Mona

And I’ll be doing April is Autism Awareness Month. So I am going to be actually doing a series of episodes, everyone listening about autism diagnosis. Obviously I will be I actually I’m going to be bringing on a speech therapist. That and a developmental therapist that works with children with autism, because I think it’s so important that we hear it from all aspects, because it is something that is really important to understand and research is always coming out about it.

 

01;05;53;02 – 01;06;12;12

Dr. Mona

But like Allison said, it’s not the vaccine. So please remember that when you are deciding to vaccinate your children, Allison and Layla, I am so grateful for you both. You guys are a wealth of information. This obviously went a little bit more than what we planned in terms of time. What would be your final message for everyone listening?

 

01;06;12;12 – 01;06;16;06

Dr. Mona

Obviously I have a lot of parents listening, so what would be your final message to them?

 

01;06;16;08 – 01;06;42;04

Alison

I think that having having concerns about vaccines is it’s normal, right? These are things that you haven’t learned about that even me as a scientist like hadn’t learned about specifically. So these questions and concerns are real. They’re valid. And so I don’t want people to be afraid to ask the questions. And so I’m grateful for like, podcasts like this to help say, yes, this is a concern you have.

 

01;06;42;04 – 01;06;56;29

Alison

Let’s talk about it. Let’s dig into the data. Let’s talk about and try to ease your concerns. And then you should also follow our our blog on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn and Twitter, where I’m all those places. So,

 

01;06;57;01 – 01;07;33;01

Layla

In addition to vaccinating your kids, I had two more points to raise. One is that often times when we don’t vaccinate, especially if we’re a family that’s well-educated and has wealth, the people who are impacted most are the people who do not have health and or do not have wealth. They’re individuals who are immunocompromised in our community, children who are recovering from cancer in our community, or children whose parents, as I mentioned before, can’t afford to take time off work.

 

01;07;33;04 – 01;08;03;15

Layla

Right. So we have to consider these public health initiatives at a community level. And the second thing that I wanted to mention is that throughout this entire podcast, we’ve talked about the safety of vaccines and the importance of the scientific and medical communities. And, the funding that these groups receive, the funding that our public health initiatives receive, all of this is driven by our vote, right?

 

01;08;03;15 – 01;08;37;25

Layla

So I really hope that parents, take public health initiatives into account when they decide for whom to vote, whichever way it is. Right. But that they consider that the integrity of our public health institutions is very important and that the safety of these, of these medical devices, of these medications that our entire society relies on, can depend on something as simple as our vote.

 

01;08;37;28 – 01;08;43;23

Layla

Right? So please go out and vote, whichever way you choose to vote. But please do vote.

 

01;08;43;26 – 01;09;11;27

Dr. Mona

It’s so important. I cannot agree with I cannot agree with you all more about, you know, your final messages. And again, I’m so grateful for having you both on the episode. Today I’m going to be linking their website and obviously their social media handles, like I mentioned, including a bunch of resources that I mentioned already in this episode, the CDC schedule, the CDC website, the articles, you know, obviously talking, like I said, about the autism and whatnot, I am so grateful for you both.

 

01;09;11;27 – 01;09;21;00

Dr. Mona

I hope that you all can come on again to talk about other topics that I’ve read about on your website and your blog. And again, I’m so thankful for you. Thank you.

 

01;09;21;03 – 01;09;22;12

Layla

Thank you. Yeah, this is great.

 

01;09;22;18 – 01;09;23;17

Alison

Also.

 

01;09;23;19 – 01;09;26;19

Layla

Are you vaccinating even during Covid?

 

01;09;26;22 – 01;09;28;08

Dr. Mona

Yes we are.

 

01;09;28;10 – 01;09;31;22

Layla

So parents can get their vaccines on time during an epidemic.

 

01;09;31;25 – 01;09;49;08

Dr. Mona

Yes. Can you believe it. And you know actually that’s a great that’s a great point because, parents were hesitant to come in because they were scared. And that was another thing that boggled my mind. I mentioned that when I’m sitting there and they’re hesitant to vaccinate, I’m like, wait, this is the this should show you that this is why we should vaccinate.

 

01;09;49;15 – 01;10;08;05

Dr. Mona

But besides the point, but a lot of parents didn’t leave. They didn’t want to come out, and then they finally are getting their children caught up and we’re actually catching them up. For some children missed their, like, 15 month vaccines, missed their 18 month vaccine. So we’re having to catch them up and my advice for my final advice is go on schedule.

 

01;10;08;05 – 01;10;28;21

Dr. Mona

Like we said earlier in this episode, trust your pediatrician. And if your pediatrician is saying you don’t need vaccines, if your family doctor is saying you don’t need vaccines, I really want you to understand what you heard in this episode. Take it from the scientists, take it from the medical community, that if someone is an outlier, there’s a reason why they’re an outlier.

 

01;10;28;21 – 01;10;49;26

Dr. Mona

They’re not trying to be this innovative person. They’re not trying to be the. Sometimes I feel like some doctors say this to be a celebrity of some kind. I don’t know why some doctors do this, that they promote anti-vaccination, but you need to listen to the scientists and the doctors that are promoting vaccination because there is an interest there to help our patients and our children.

 

01;10;49;26 – 01;11;11;23

Dr. Mona

And I didn’t mention this earlier, but I obviously vaccinate my son. I vaccinate him on schedule by the way, you can be pro-vaccine but also anti over prescribing medicine. People think that you have to be one or the other. You have to be anti-vaccine, organic, you can’t do it. You have to do like natural things. No, I actually do vaccinate my, my son.

 

01;11;11;28 – 01;11;33;12

Dr. Mona

But we’re very big on, you know, natural things. We eat healthy, we drink a lot of water. We take care of ourselves. I don’t over prescribe antibiotics if they’re not necessary. I’m very low. I actually, my entire practice, I prescribe the least amount of medicines. You know, like prescriptions. Because I believe that our body is able to handle a lot of viruses, which a lot of kids get.

 

01;11;33;18 – 01;11;56;21

Dr. Mona

But the things that we’re preventing with vaccination, these are things that are problems. And that is why I support them. And that’s, I think, a really important point that I think parents need to hear, too, is that you can be both. You can be holistic. I’m putting that in quotes. You can be, you know, there’s so many I I’m putting in quotes and crunchy, crunchy moms who are like, well, no, I have to do this, that and the other.

 

01;11;56;21 – 01;12;17;11

Dr. Mona

I can’t vaccinate, I can’t do this. No, you can provide this life saving, you know, intervention for your child and still do alternative things, you know, meaning obviously take the advice of a other doctor, but you can be both vaccine save lives and they come from a, a place of research. They come from a place of wanting to help kids.

 

01;12;17;13 – 01;12;24;19

Dr. Mona

Thank you both. I could talk forever with you both, and I’m so grateful. Thank you. And again, everyone. Thanks for tuning in to this week’s episode.

 

01;12;24;20 – 01;12;25;24

Layla

Thank you.

 

01;12;25;26 – 01;12;44;18

Dr. Mona

Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. I hope you guys enjoyed it. As always, please leave a review, share it with a friend, comment on my social media and if you’re not already, follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram. I love doing this for all of you. Have a great rest of your week. Take care.

 

01;12;44;19 – 01;12;45;14

Dr. Mona

Talk to you soon!