As parents in the modern age, we want to undo a lot of the things that didn’t serve us as children. Sometimes, in our attempts to do better, we can swing completely in the other direction, over-validating our children and enabling undesired behaviors rather than encouraging positive ones. I welcome Zack Kasabo, a certified school counselor and parent coach.

 

We discuss:

• What enabling of behaviors actually means
• Why children are learning “learned helplessness”
• What corrective validation is and how to use it

 

To connect with Zack Kasabo follow him on Instagram @mybehaviorguide and check out all his resources at https://coachkasabo.info/.

 

Our podcasts are also now on YouTube. If you prefer a video podcast with closed captioning, check us out there and subscribe to PedsDocTalk TV.

 

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on the PedsDocTalk Podcast Sponsorships page of the website.

00;00;00;08 – 00;00;19;24
Zack Kasabo
So we’ve gone from really, you know, excessively dismissive to in some ways excessively obsessive and being too involved and not knowing when to kind of set that limit, let our child experience some of the consequences of their own actions, letting them understand that they are capable on their own.

00;00;19;27 – 00;00;41;23
Dr. Mona
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the show. It’s Doctor Mona, and I’ll be chatting today about encouraging positive behaviors without enabling our children with Zack Kasabo And before we get into that, I want to take a moment and celebrate you. September is Suicide Awareness Month, and I want to extend a message to everyone listening on how much you matter and how important your mental health is.

00;00;41;26 – 00;01;05;13
Dr. Mona
That in our physical health are the foundation of everything we do. And I will say that mental health to me is more important than physical health. Taking care of yourself physically and mentally is not a luxury, but a necessity. By prioritizing your own mental health, you’re not only strengthening yourself, but also setting an example for your children. If you have them, the children around you, and the people around you on the importance of taking care of self and seeking help if needed.

00;01;05;21 – 00;01;26;27
Dr. Mona
I have been very vocal about my own mental health journey since my son was born, and although I don’t expect all of you to be vocal in the same way I have, that’s right. You don’t have to go on social media. You don’t have to create YouTube videos. I do encourage you to always find that trusted loved one or professional to talk about life’s issues, to support you through dark times and even through the good times.

00;01;27;00 – 00;01;49;10
Dr. Mona
It is through this open conversation and vulnerability with people that we trust that we can find brighter skies when things are feeling a little bit gray. Now let’s get to today’s conversation. There are three ways that I find guests for the show. Either I follow them and want them on. The community has suggested them to come on the show or get messages or people contacting me via my form or Instagram to come on the show.

00;01;49;12 – 00;02;18;15
Dr. Mona
When Zach Casado contacted me to chat with me on the show, I took a look at his Instagram handle, at my behavior guide and immediately said yes. Zach has a master’s in education and is a school counselor and offers relatable and honest parenting guidance. He is concerned of parents being too permissive or lacking boundaries, because he sees how this shows up in school systems and in their life, and I also see how it shows up in my visits with these children and also in school systems when I hear from them as well.

00;02;18;17 – 00;02;27;12
Dr. Mona
He joins me to talk about how we can encourage positive behaviors in our children without teetering into negative enabling behavior. Let’s get to it.

00;02;27;14 – 00;02;29;19
Dr. Mona
Thank you so much for joining me today, Zach.

00;02;29;21 – 00;02;35;11
Zack Kasabo
Thanks for having me on, man. I’m excited to talk to you. And and hopefully we can provide some value for your audience I think.

00;02;35;11 – 00;02;47;00
Dr. Mona
So, you know, I started following you recently. You reached out filled out my I have a form for my podcast guests to come on. I did I did some vetting. I checked out your resources. Love following you. Coach Casado on Instagram, correct?

00;02;47;05 – 00;02;47;23
Zack Kasabo
That’s correct.

00;02;47;23 – 00;03;02;00
Dr. Mona
Yep. Yeah, I love following you. Your videos are amazing. Very balanced, very nuanced. I like it. You really understand children in that, you know that’s something that I relate to as well. But if anyone’s not familiar with who you are and the work that you do, tell us a little bit more about yourself.

00;03;02;02 – 00;03;24;21
Zack Kasabo
So thanks again for having me on. My name is Zach Isabell. I’m a I’m a certified school counselor, like you mentioned. I’ve had the luxury of working with kids from kindergarten through 12th grade over the past eight years. So one thing that I feel, very appreciative of is I have a unique experience where I get to see all the developmental stages, you know, kids, you know, again, from as young as kindergarten, up to 18 years old.

00;03;24;24 – 00;03;43;01
Zack Kasabo
And then throughout my experience, I’ve worked closely with parents, teachers and administrators to make sure that we have positive behavior plans in place so that every student has a has an opportunity to be successful. So that’s just a little bit about me. And then I also have a private coaching business where I specialize in helping parents confidently manage their their child’s challenging behavior.

00;03;43;03 – 00;04;01;23
Dr. Mona
I love it. And again, we’ll attach all those resources at the end of this episode, as well as in the show notes where you can connect with him. But again, we are talking about encouraging positive behaviors in kids without enabling. And I love that you are a certified school counselor because you’re seeing children. You know, I see children in the health aspect.

00;04;01;23 – 00;04;26;01
Dr. Mona
I’m also a mother as well, but we know how it’s a triad, right? Parents, pediatricians, and schools are so important and we are able to see how children react and respond and really be that sort of triad in helping children reach their full potential. And so in terms of, behavior or development, and you’ve talked a lot about how society is unintentionally enabling negative behaviors at times for children.

00;04;26;01 – 00;04;27;08
Dr. Mona
And what do you mean by that?

00;04;27;10 – 00;04;50;19
Zack Kasabo
Yeah. So I always like to start by empathizing with, with a person with views that might differ from mine. And I think one thing, just to be fair right now, is that current approaches are rooted in good faith. So we’re trying to make up for past failures that were dismissive at large. So, most people, I think, would agree that parenting practices in the past tended to be dismissive at times.

00;04;50;19 – 00;05;22;06
Zack Kasabo
Kids weren’t necessarily getting the emotional connection that they crave. You could argue, though, that they still are developing technical competency, but again, they’re lacking that emotional intimacy. So we’ve gone from really, you know, excessively dismissive to, in some ways excessively obsessive and being involved and not knowing when to kind of set that limit, let our child experience some of the consequences of their own actions, letting them understand that they are capable on their own.

00;05;22;09 – 00;05;39;28
Zack Kasabo
So, you know, as that dynamic has changed, I think that, again, rooted in good faith, we’ve sometimes we’ve actually encouraged some kids to maybe be too self-indulgent and get lost too much in their thinking, instead of just going and going out into the world and just doing it. Like from experience.

00;05;40;00 – 00;05;59;04
Dr. Mona
Yeah, I yeah, I relate to that and I see that a lot on social media. I know you have a presence there as well. It’s almost like we’re trying to compensate for all that past baggage and do the complete opposite. And in a way you can enable behavior. It’s so funny. It’s like you were a fly on on our wall last night because my husband and I were chatting exactly about this.

00;05;59;04 – 00;06;19;14
Dr. Mona
We were talking about how we we do feel like modern parenting has, in a good way, good faith. I love how you present that has really gone to the other extreme and not found that a great area of like a natural consequences about consequences in general, and also not hovering and just over validating. I know you’ve spoken about that as well.

00;06;19;16 – 00;06;26;14
Dr. Mona
And I’m curious, you know, you obviously are working heavily in schools. How do you see this pan out in like a behavior at school, for example?

00;06;26;16 – 00;06;51;05
Zack Kasabo
Right. So there’s there’s a couple things. I think two overarching themes. One would be more and more kids are displaying lower frustration tolerance, which is directly linked to the current parenting approaches. And then, you know, and I think what stems from that lower frustration tolerance, it’s just a more generalized anxiety sense of anxiety. So so those are two to, to generalized themes.

00;06;51;05 – 00;07;11;16
Zack Kasabo
Again, for parents listening out there, I don’t want to be an alarmist and like pretend like everything’s on fire. But, you know, these are things that are, that are steadily creeping up as, as each year progresses. So and again, you know, we can’t we can directly see the, the link between over validating, giving too, giving too much grace.

00;07;11;16 – 00;07;21;07
Zack Kasabo
Kids need grace, but giving too much grace and then having a lower frustration tolerance when mom or dad aren’t there to kind of swoop in and take over and kind of fix things for them.

00;07;21;09 – 00;07;49;05
Dr. Mona
Yeah, I, I agree, and again, this is so already a wonderful conversation and I’m happy that you’re putting it out there in such a compassionate way. And I think, you know, I, I talk a lot about social media on my podcast because before I joined the space, I, you know, I did my job, I talked to families and then I, I started seeing all this stuff, like using our example about how children shouldn’t be in school and they, you know, when they’re upset in school that, you know, they’re frustrated school, that’s a sign that they need to be home with the caregiver.

00;07;49;05 – 00;08;13;26
Dr. Mona
I’m like, oh, let’s take a step back here. That’s not necessarily what that means. You know, children kind of need need to learn about different authority figures and how to be in different situations, for them to learn how to behave and be in those in those moments. So in your opinion, what is that key to achieving that balance so that positive behaviors are expected and encouraged without enabling them along the way?

00;08;13;28 – 00;08;41;09
Zack Kasabo
Yeah, right. So, I love how you frame that. So kids need love and they need limits. They need both. Another way you can think about it is they need empathy and correction. Same idea. So you know, an overall goal that parents should be trying to achieve with their child is developing a secure attachment. And the simplest way to understand that is that the child has basic trust in themselves, and basic trust that other people will help meet their needs when they can’t do it themselves.

00;08;41;16 – 00;08;41;26
Dr. Mona

00;08;42;03 – 00;09;05;03
Zack Kasabo
So and the and one, you know, one and one way that we accomplish that again is we give them empathy regardless of their perception is so warped. We meet them where they’re at. But then we make sure we help course correct them so that so that they are they know that there’s certain expectations or to gently challenge that perspective so they can become grounded in reality.

00;09;05;05 – 00;09;26;13
Zack Kasabo
So again, right now we are doing an outstanding job as a society empathizing. Great job. You know I can say even you know even all the schools that I’ve worked in, we do a great job letting kids be heard, letting kids seen. But you could argue sometimes it’s to a fault, it’s too much and there isn’t that limit or that stop where it’s like we’ve heard you.

00;09;26;13 – 00;09;40;12
Zack Kasabo
Now let’s talk about what we can do so that you can go explore the world on your own. So, you know, it’s really, really true for parents listening out there. They need both. Now, sometimes you might need a little more love, more limits, but the kids need both.

00;09;40;14 – 00;10;02;13
Dr. Mona
Oh, and it’s that it’s that middle ground balance that you mentioned. And I think that is such a healthy perspective because like you said, they’re going to grow up and they need to know that some things they have to be capable of doing. And you, Brett, you brought up frustration tolerance, you know, and how a lot of parents, I agree, tend to want to overdo and not let their kid be frustrated.

00;10;02;13 – 00;10;14;03
Dr. Mona
Do you see that happening a lot in schools in terms of children not being able to just handle emotions because the parents are over validating and not letting them feel their feelings too much?

00;10;14;06 – 00;10;35;19
Zack Kasabo
Yes. So so I think one thing that is, there’s a blind spot that can quickly become a blind spot when when parents do over validate or there’s not enough of the correction pieces, that what the kids learn is that they’re not responsible for their attitude feelings because some someone else will take responsibility for them. And obviously it’s not clearly articulated that way.

00;10;35;19 – 00;10;59;21
Zack Kasabo
There’s no conversation, but that’s what’s learned. It’s through. It’s through the repeated feedback loop of I’m upset, I’m frustrated, or I’m sad, whatever it might be. The mom comes in, they reassure me, but they never really release me to kind of to figure not just yes, they can’t. They can’t help me correctly. They can maybe help problem solve, but they never actually, like, stop and let me do it for myself.

00;10;59;23 – 00;11;18;25
Zack Kasabo
So so they’re not they’re not developing that sense of agency. And, you know, without that sense of agency, I, I posted a video on sometimes there’s just know a sense of learned helplessness is established where it’s I can’t do it myself. I need another adult to kind of be there when my experience is proven day after day after day.

00;11;18;25 – 00;11;24;05
Zack Kasabo
Kids are capable. They can and they will do it when they have the reassurance and the correction.

00;11;24;07 – 00;11;35;12
Dr. Mona
Yeah, that learned helplessness is a is a huge thing. And it’s like I can see how this is becoming an issue when we are over validating and empathizing and and not providing that for you or for them.

00;11;35;14 – 00;11;39;00
Dr. Mona
Now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors.

00;11;39;02 – 00;11;53;00
Dr. Mona
If you could provide an example like let’s say we take an example that you’ve seen in your school system or with a client that you’ve worked with, if that’s possible, and kind of describe how a parent could end up enabling them without even realizing and what we could do instead.

00;11;53;02 – 00;12;08;18
Zack Kasabo
Yeah. So it’s a super, super simple if versus if there’s, if a child, has if a child if there’s a certain task that’s required of a child, you know, it could be anything. Just for this example, packing their lunch.

00;12;08;20 – 00;12;09;09
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;12;09;11 – 00;12;28;02
Zack Kasabo
I don’t know. That might be a little, you know, and and they’re starting to know it’s time to do it. And they start to whine, and they and they start to complain, and it’s becoming this big, reoccurring daily thing. First of all, I would, I would, I always are I always encourage clients and people to look at the structure so you know what routines expectations are in place.

00;12;28;04 – 00;12;50;18
Zack Kasabo
So because structure ultimately helps kids manage their behaviors for them. So the parent doesn’t have to reactively do it. But in that in that interaction, if the duration is is too long, then ultimately the child expects that. I can kind of avoid the situation by negotiating, by debating. And one thing that I want to be clear to parents is that I do believe that kids should have a voice.

00;12;50;18 – 00;13;11;09
Zack Kasabo
We don’t just you don’t just want to shut them down, like let them express their feelings, but your job as a parent is to empathize, hold the boundary, and then you have to make a decision like you have to make a choice. Either I’m going to disengage, I’m going to, you know, I can disengage by giving them choices, with one of those choices being a consequence that they’ll have to endure on their own.

00;13;11;12 – 00;13;30;09
Zack Kasabo
You know, I can maybe maybe I don’t give them a consequence, but I choose just to walk into the other room. Yeah. Check back in, you know. So it’s just it’s little daily interactions and then those interactions, what I routinely find is they spill into they spill over to the other interactions. And it just becomes like, this is what I can expect from mom or dad.

00;13;30;09 – 00;13;45;13
Zack Kasabo
Yeah. You know, I wiggle my way out of this one with the lunch. I’m mean, I can wiggle my way. I’ll turn the TV off, turn the TV off when it’s time to turn TV off. And then she becomes like a blanket, you know, overall, you know, for Perceptional mom and dad.

00;13;45;16 – 00;14;01;13
Dr. Mona
Yeah, there has to be consistency. I mean, again, like the how we’re approaching those situations. And I like that example of like a kid who, you know, a kid who is able or capable of packing a lunch. And maybe that’s the routine that the family send. And then they start to say, well, I’m not going to do it or I can’t do it.

00;14;01;13 – 00;14;14;14
Dr. Mona
And then the family’s like, well, I don’t want to deal with the whining and the protest, so I’m just going to do it for you. And then the child learns, well, this is easy. I just don’t have to do it now. I mean, I had you brought such a small example, but it’s it’s a big thing, right?

00;14;14;14 – 00;14;30;00
Dr. Mona
Like, we think about all the little minutia, and I have a four year old, and it’s already very obvious, right? I mean, he does it more with our, my, my husband in terms of wanting my husband to do things for him. Hey, daddy, feed me. And I look at Ryan and I’m like, sweetie, you know how to eat this.

00;14;30;05 – 00;14;44;07
Dr. Mona
You don’t need help today. And it’s a balance of understanding their capability, I think. But also, you know, when you know that they’re capable, is it is it that they don’t know how to do something and you need to teach them? Or is it that they know how to do it and they don’t want to do it, and they want you to do it for them?

00;14;44;07 – 00;15;00;28
Dr. Mona
And that’s a huge thing that I think parents start to fall into the okay, well, they know how to do it, but it’s just easier for me to just do it for them. And I think you would agree with me that that is when we start to get into the slippery slope of just because it’s easier for you to do it, I get it, I’m busy.

00;15;00;28 – 00;15;16;13
Dr. Mona
I work two jobs, my husband’s busy. But I also know that there’s certain things that I, I know my son is capable of and I won’t do. And like you said, sometimes it’s like, here’s your shoes. I know how you put me. I know you know how to put them on. You have five minutes. I will sit over here, you put them on, and then we’re going to leave.

00;15;16;20 – 00;15;30;07
Dr. Mona
And if you don’t, if you don’t do it, we’re going to put your shoes on, and I’m going to take you out the door. There’s no like. So what do you do? You want to like, what would you like. Do you want me to sit with you? And we can choose which shoe it’s. Sometimes you gotta just move and say, like you said, I’m going to.

00;15;30;07 – 00;15;40;27
Dr. Mona
I’m going to make a consequence for you and make it a point that we got to go. And I love that. I think that’s such a healthy perspective that I think is sometimes lacking in a lot of the large parenting accounts on social.

00;15;41;00 – 00;16;03;27
Zack Kasabo
Media and something. So there’s a theme you said that that is very salient, which is that parents need to start trusting their their gut and just learn to be decisive. And if you make a mistake, you can always go back and repair it again. But kids feed off of that in decisiveness. So yes, you know, we I and I talk a lot on my on my page about practical skills.

00;16;03;29 – 00;16;19;15
Zack Kasabo
But if you’re not being decisive and confident with the way in which you’re delivering them, they’re ineffective. Like they pick up on on tone body language. So just like you said, like you just this is this is what this is. This is what’s going to happen. You don’t have to like it. I know it’s frustrating, but this is what’s going to happen.

00;16;19;18 – 00;16;44;20
Zack Kasabo
Like if, if, if more parents would just trust that that they can do that. And then an expected and a big thing too is expect your child to protest at first. Like if it’s if it’s not the norm, like expect it. They’re going to eventually at that, you know, just just hold that boundary. You know, that’s another big thing that, that I am concerned about is I do feel as the parents are losing trust in themselves just to trust their gut.

00;16;44;22 – 00;16;46;08
Zack Kasabo
You know, I’m not sure if you’re seeing that.

00;16;46;08 – 00;17;07;17
Dr. Mona
So I do, and thanks for asking. You know, I, I do see that and that lack of intuition and that lack of looking at their child of like, here is my child, here is what they need, and here is their temperament. And also along the lines of temperament. I do believe sometimes we over blame temperament. Now, don’t get me wrong, I think every kid has a different temperament.

00;17;07;17 – 00;17;24;27
Dr. Mona
My daughter and son are very different, like I see it firsthand. But I also know that just because my son is a little more reactive or a little more strong willed, and I know hopefully we’ll be able to chat about strong willed children. Just because he’s like that, it doesn’t mean that I throw the basic principles that we’re discussing out the window.

00;17;24;27 – 00;17;49;02
Dr. Mona
It just means that I need to make sure that maybe I need a more firm hand in terms of how I deliver. Maybe I need to be a little more understanding that he may need options when my daughter, when she grows up, may not. But it’s really not losing faith and losing that. That again, that confidence in parenting and I, I attribute this and I’m curious what you think, but I attribute this loss of confidence in parenting to a lot of the noise out there.

00;17;49;02 – 00;18;10;01
Dr. Mona
Right? Like if we took away all of social media, if we took away all of the books out there, which again, I think there’s like there’s amazing people like you and myself that I hope can really get this information out there. But if we really took out the multiple people saying different things or just understanding that there’s different options, we could really tap into that intuition and say, you know what, this isn’t working for me.

00;18;10;01 – 00;18;28;11
Dr. Mona
Like, like you said, this isn’t working for us. What can I do? What is the root issue here? What is the root personality or thing that the child is dealing with? Is it shame? Is it guilt? Is it this? And how can we now approach that versus oh God, now, you know, I’ve been told that I can’t leave the room when they’re having a meltdown.

00;18;28;11 – 00;18;34;20
Dr. Mona
And now if I need to do that, because that’s the only thing that works. Now, I’m a horrible parent that is causing so much of these issues.

00;18;34;20 – 00;18;57;14
Zack Kasabo
I believe 100%. So I and I agree with your whole sentiment 100%. So I think one one thing, a big trap that that people are falling into is there’s this idea of like, if I just swipe a little more, I’m going to find the exact wording, yes, exact skill that I can plug and play. And that’s going to just completely change the course, the trajectory of my child’s behavior.

00;18;57;17 – 00;19;18;25
Zack Kasabo
When something that you’ve been you’ve been kind of, you made a point a couple of times is that it’s all about principles. Principles should be guide. It should be guiding your parenting like you can layer. You should be learning skills on top of principles, not the other way around. Yeah. So, you know, the principles are like the undercurrent structure, undercurrent, the way in which you say the things.

00;19;18;25 – 00;19;34;02
Zack Kasabo
On top of that, we can play around those things, but those things are in place. Yeah. You’re going to be just going back and forth to whatever the flavor of the week is, whatever the current trend is. So 100%, if the noise were canceled out, I think a lot of these things would be corrected. Just self-correct it on their end.

00;19;34;05 – 00;19;58;19
Dr. Mona
Yeah. You know, I used to do a whole series on my show about about my principles. I’m sure everyone, every parenting person has their own. And I had my own like they were about, I think about 10 to 14 of them. And I you know, I talked about that and those principles. Exactly. Those are principles that are going to take you whether your child is a newborn, toddler, teenager, grown adult, like these are just foundational pieces that you’re you’re you’re always going back to your principles.

00;19;58;19 – 00;20;24;16
Dr. Mona
Your roadmap on here is what I believe in my family. Here is how I’m going to be the sturdy leader of my home. And I think so much of our generation of parenting is trying to get too caught up in that. Well, that’s but this person is studying this, and that’s not my principle. But it’s going back to stop that noise, figure out your principles, and then look for the people that are feeding into those principles for you, you know, that are helping you support them, you know?

00;20;24;19 – 00;20;25;08
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;20;25;10 – 00;20;26;20
Zack Kasabo
100%.

00;20;26;22 – 00;20;46;20
Dr. Mona
And so I think I just again, I love chatting with you about this and I, I never know what kind of guest I’m going to get until we start recording. And I had to do a little bit of vetting and looking at your videos, and I had a feeling that this was going to be a really impactful conversation in terms of helping helping parents feel a little bit more empowered, I hope, on how they can approach these situations.

00;20;46;25 – 00;20;52;15
Dr. Mona
What other practical skill can you offer parents to get them started with all of this besides what we’ve already discussed?

00;20;52;17 – 00;21;12;06
Zack Kasabo
Yeah. So again, start with the principles and the frameworks with structure. Always, always, always. And even the things that the skill I’m about to share it. You should be trying to read it, redirect your child back into a principle, back into a routine, back into some sort of system that will ultimately help manage their behavior so that you don’t have to reactively do it.

00;21;12;08 – 00;21;32;17
Zack Kasabo
But my go to in schools and something that I know could be very helpful for your parents, I call it corrective validation. So all you do is you give your child a dose of acknowledgment or validation within reason, and then you tell them what they should do instead right now or an appropriate time for that behavior. So again, we’re not we’re not going to give we’re not going to give a license to the negative behavior.

00;21;32;17 – 00;21;53;21
Zack Kasabo
But we’re going to acknowledge it. And now we’re going to encourage a positive replacement behavior instead. So for example, you know, it’s time to turn the screen off. I know you love watching the screen. It’s got you know, it’s time to turn it off. You have your screen time tomorrow. So so again, just just checking in with them really quickly, letting the letting them know that you are emotionally available.

00;21;53;21 – 00;22;07;19
Zack Kasabo
So to to again to try to through reps build that secure attachment. That’s not always dismissive. Although there is a time and a place to kind of shut things down. Absolutely. And then and then encouraging them to show positive behavior instead.

00;22;07;21 – 00;22;11;13
Dr. Mona
Now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors.

00;22;11;15 – 00;22;18;28
Dr. Mona
And what would be like in that example of the screen time, what would be a positive behavior? For an example, for anyone who may be like, what is? What is that? How does that work?

00;22;19;01 – 00;22;37;11
Zack Kasabo
Yeah. So so you would just literally say you need to turn it off. So yeah, I know you love this game. I know this is one of your favorite shows. I know I mentioned you need to turn the TV off now and again, trying to be, trying to use statements instead of questions and decisive and, the decorative statements you need to.

00;22;37;14 – 00;22;51;17
Zack Kasabo
It’s time to turn the TV off. You can watch it later. Or, you know, if it’s a, if it’s a big thing to. Yeah, you could give the choices to if they don’t respond to that. Yeah. You could choose a turn. You can choose a turn off or I’m going to I’m going to turn it off for you.

00;22;51;17 – 00;22;52;20
Zack Kasabo
If you’re if you’re unable to do.

00;22;52;20 – 00;22;53;11
Dr. Mona
Yes.

00;22;53;13 – 00;22;59;26
Zack Kasabo
Yes, I want to give you I guess I’ll give you I’ll give you a couple. Yeah. I’ll give you 15 seconds to think about it. Yeah. You turn it on.

00;22;59;28 – 00;23;16;12
Dr. Mona
You know, so funny. We we do the same thing in our house. We do a five second rule and not a threat. It’s never a threat of, like, you’re getting. You’re going to be pulled into a corner. It’s you have five seconds to decide. Either you’re going to walk up the stairs to go to bed time, or daddy’s going to carry you up beside the decide.

00;23;16;15 – 00;23;31;19
Dr. Mona
And our son, sometimes he cries and he’s like, and then we’re like, okay, five seconds are up, we’re going to take you up there. And it’s not because you can’t expect a child to be like, oh, what? I’m going to. I decided to walk up. Sometimes you got to carry them up the stairs or carry them out of the park.

00;23;31;21 – 00;23;46;24
Dr. Mona
But I love it because what you’re saying is like, it’s true because in that aspect and that example that you gave an I gave is that you are allowing that empathy that you see that they don’t want to do it. Obviously you recognize them and there’s attachment there, but you got to set the boundary and follow through with it.

00;23;46;26 – 00;23;53;24
Dr. Mona
Otherwise they don’t look at you as a sturdy leader. They look at you as an authority figure that doesn’t follow through. And that’s not an authority figure.

00;23;53;29 – 00;24;10;11
Zack Kasabo
But yeah. And then once once they build that mental map with how, you know, how they relate to mom or dad, they take they take that and then they use it with other people in the world too. So, you know, it’s important to remember that those representations that they learned from those encounters with mom and dad now. Yeah.

00;24;10;18 – 00;24;26;24
Zack Kasabo
Does it can it and does it change. Yeah, sure. But like that’s kind of like a framework that they’re going to use. And you said you said something else that really stood out to me. And this is, this is a big another big trap that parents are falling into is that they’re expecting we’re expecting kids to process these situations like they’re adults.

00;24;26;27 – 00;24;38;23
Zack Kasabo
Yes. They don’t have the life experience to process that. It’s not like you need to take a bath. You need to go to bed. This, you know, I’m going to you can protest. I’m going to empathize. But this is not this is not a negotiation.

00;24;38;26 – 00;24;40;00
Dr. Mona
Yeah. No.

00;24;40;02 – 00;24;51;22
Zack Kasabo
And then I think parents like this, this is a common here’s a common concern that I’ve experienced with my clients and in schools. I want my child to be able to express myself and express themselves.

00;24;51;27 – 00;24;52;14
Dr. Mona

00;24;52;16 – 00;25;16;27
Zack Kasabo
So the so what happens is that they give them this space to express themselves. And they never put a limit on the expression. Yes. What happens in time. It turns into verbal aggression. It turns into physical aggression because they never they never learn how to appropriately, express themselves in positive ways because the, the, there’s no like this is how you can express yourself.

00;25;16;27 – 00;25;27;06
Zack Kasabo
This is what we will tolerate. It’s just kind of like a free for all. Yeah. Again, it’s like too much. It’s like the freedom is coming before the responsibility instead of the other way around, you know?

00;25;27;11 – 00;25;33;26
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And you know, you said that they’re not able to process. Let’s be honest. Even some adults don’t know how to do this. Right. So how can we say.

00;25;33;28 – 00;25;39;24
Zack Kasabo
Well, what? When I’m overwhelmed. Yeah. When I’m overwhelmed. I have a tough time processing something that works, but.

00;25;39;26 – 00;25;58;00
Dr. Mona
I, you know, I my my big philosophy here is we tend to hold children to a higher standard than we hold ourselves as adults. And I can say this as far as knowing, you know, when I’m in, when I’m driving and I get honked at for not putting my, my foot from the gas pedal or the brake pedal to the gas pedal fast enough, I’m like, everyone needs better emotional regulation as adults.

00;25;58;06 – 00;26;14;28
Dr. Mona
So with children, you know the work that you’re doing and the work, I hope that I, you know, people like you are doing, including myself, is to really teach the sort of living in life, like, again, you’re not going to always get what you want, want. Things need to move along. You’re not going to get this 20 minute emotional validation session all the time.

00;26;14;28 – 00;26;30;21
Dr. Mona
And that doesn’t mean that you’re not love. It doesn’t mean that we don’t care. It means that we’re human. We got to move along. I’m not going to sit there with my son for ten minutes and be like, sweetie, oh my gosh, like, I know, how could that happen to you? It’s quick. Like you said, it’s quick. Yeah, I see you.

00;26;30;27 – 00;26;45;27
Dr. Mona
It’s frustrating. But you know what? We’re going to do? We got to get out of the park like there’s no hoopla. I think there’s so much hoopla because we don’t want to see your kids mad like I. I’ve always said this and I get a lot of controversy. I say parents fear their tears of their children far too much.

00;26;46;04 – 00;26;58;00
Dr. Mona
They fear the tears so much. It’s like they’re afraid of their kids crying and their kids being upset. But that’s part of learning, right? Like they got to be upset and and cry and not like the boundary for them to learn about.

00;26;58;02 – 00;27;17;27
Zack Kasabo
Yes. So all great stuff and two things. Tears are good because that is them starting to accept that they have to let go of beliefs that aren’t. Yeah. So what happens at first is they protest, and protest is how, you know, we show anger to try to control situation when we feel out of control. And then after that comes the sadness.

00;27;17;27 – 00;27;32;26
Zack Kasabo
And that’s that is a good thing. So that that means that means that because what sadness helps us do is let go. So letting go of the idea that I get to tell mom every night, no, I’m not taking a bath like that. You want your child to let go of that idea so that they take a bath when it’s time to take it back.

00;27;32;26 – 00;27;33;15
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;27;33;17 – 00;27;52;01
Zack Kasabo
It’s it’s as simple as that. And then the other piece that that is really, really important is that the more that you stop and you process and you therapies, you teach kids to self obsess. And again, that is where this generalized anxiety is coming from, is there’s too much turning inward and expecting a child to be able to go inward.

00;27;52;04 – 00;28;09;07
Zack Kasabo
And then success successfully transition to going outward without like getting stuck. It’s unrealistic. It’s not it’s not helpful. There’s a time and a place. There’s a time to place every interaction. Absolutely not. You’re just setting. You’re setting your child up to feel anxious about any concerns, you know.

00;28;09;10 – 00;28;28;18
Dr. Mona
And you you mentioned at the beginning that you don’t want to alarm parents and say, well, look at all this is happening. But listen, I see it too, as a pediatrician and managing a lot of these things, I see that there’s a higher level of anxiety, a higher level of children not being able to deal with life. And that is a direct reflection of us as parents.

00;28;28;18 – 00;28;47;11
Dr. Mona
And I will say it, I will say it that it is our responsibility. And we cannot blame teachers. We can’t blame anybody else. It all starts in the home. And this is not to say that it’s easy. This is not to say that you know it. Oh, just do that. It’s but a lot of what you said, you know, this is basic things that don’t take up our time.

00;28;47;11 – 00;29;05;13
Dr. Mona
Like you’re actually saving people time by not sitting there for an hour and doing this whole production. So I love that you you mentioned that. And it’s not a blaming thing. It’s an accountability thing that if I want to raise a child who’s compassionate has emotional intelligence, who does this, does that, I got to do the work to get there.

00;29;05;15 – 00;29;24;14
Dr. Mona
This is the biggest job we will ever do. And people don’t look at parenting like that. And I think that’s what I think is a huge issue, is that we look at this as a whatever, but it’s a human being, like, you’re raising someone who’s entire world is how you view them. And how you teach them how to view the world and interact with the world.

00;29;24;14 – 00;29;28;21
Dr. Mona
And so, yeah, I, I relate to this so much. As you can see.

00;29;28;24 – 00;29;34;03
Zack Kasabo
All the wealth, wealth, settle everything. You know, I agree with I think we’re on the same page, which is awesome.

00;29;34;07 – 00;29;38;02
Dr. Mona
Listen, I think we need to start our own podcast.

00;29;38;04 – 00;29;57;21
Zack Kasabo
Yeah. So sometimes, you know, it is. And as an educator too, I can and I can speak for a lot of my educator friends. You know, we do feel very discouraged. And we do feel defeated because there is this expectation now that we are like the home, like, yes, like you said, we’re never it is not our responsibility to raise your child.

00;29;57;21 – 00;30;18;21
Zack Kasabo
We are supplemental to the home with very specific things. Academics, you know, as a school counselor, it’s am I doing therapy? You know, we can we can talk about like some solutions to problems. But, you know, this is this is what we’re seeing time and time again. Here’s my child. Don’t do this for me. It’s like, this is going to work.

00;30;18;21 – 00;30;28;17
Zack Kasabo
Like, yeah, you know, they’re ultimately going to integrate behavior based on how they relate to the parent period. Yeah. That’s that’s the that’s that’s the over. Yeah. That’s what parents need to know.

00;30;28;19 – 00;30;33;26
Dr. Mona
Well that was an amazing take home. But is there anything else you’d want to add as a final message for everyone listening today.

00;30;33;28 – 00;30;50;12
Zack Kasabo
Yes. So I, I just want to go back and just I want to just start with the grace piece and the empathy piece. And if you if you found yourself in one of these traps, which are very easy to get stuck in, you know, one trap being is they’re like, what’s the next best thing that could that could be a quick fix.

00;30;50;12 – 00;31;13;05
Zack Kasabo
Another thing, you know, am I am I harming my child if I, if I stick to my if I follow my intuition, you know, just just have some grace for yourself and just start by just taking responsibility and, you know, accepting your part in the feedback loop. And then tomorrow’s a new day. You know, that’s it. You know, you’re going to just start implementing slowly implementing new things that can that can disrupt that feedback loops.

00;31;13;05 – 00;31;26;27
Zack Kasabo
Your child gets what they need. They get they get the the emotional reassurance. But then they also learn that that to expect that you were going to, they also learn that you were going to expect them to be to do things on their end.

00;31;26;29 – 00;31;46;24
Dr. Mona
Beautifully said. I really enjoyed chatting with you. I know I’ll have you on again in the future just because I really love talking parenting and talking parenting with people who are balanced and understand and are not afraid to admit when we need to change the ways we parent. And so thank you again. Where can people go for more information to follow you on to stay connected.

00;31;46;27 – 00;31;58;26
Zack Kasabo
Awesome. Yeah. So, Instagram and, TikTok at Coach Cassava and Facebook is just cassava behavior management. And then my website is WW coach cassava.com.

00;31;58;26 – 00;32;11;00
Dr. Mona
Perfect. I will be adding all of that to our show notes that you can give him a follow and really connect with his resources because like I said, I just think this kind of information is so important. And thank you again for joining us today.

00;32;11;03 – 00;32;13;11
Zack Kasabo
Thank you man, I appreciate it. Let’s do it again soon.

00;32;13;14 – 00;32;34;13
Dr. Mona
Parenting can feel so hard because it is it’s hard to find that balance between encouraging positive behaviors, but also raising children who understand boundaries and understand they need to make developmentally appropriate choices and have developmentally appropriate responsibilities to thrive at home and in society. If you love this conversation, make sure you leave a review or a rating shared on social media.

00;32;34;18 – 00;32;51;22
Dr. Mona
Tag a friend. Because this is how the show continues to grow. And don’t forget to check out my Instagram handle for a giveaway where you can win a one on one consultation with Zach, as well as a course of your choosing from Pete’s talk. Thank you, Zach for joining me, and he will be on again in the future to chat about strong willed children.

00;32;51;22 – 00;33;12;19
Dr. Mona
One of my favorite things to chat about because I have a very strong willed child myself. Next week I invite another favorite doctor, Krupa Playford. She’s a fellow pediatrician and mom and at the pediatrician mom on social media, and we chat about some common misconceptions. We hear about pediatricians, especially online, and what we really know based on our education, training, and expertise.

00;33;12;26 – 00;33;17;16
Dr. Mona
It’s a fun and honest conversation and make sure to tune in, have a wonderful week and stay well.