Your amazing sleeper becomes a toddler and suddenly needs you all the time at bedtime or during the night. Is something wrong? How do we get them back to independent sleep? I speak with Amna, a mom from the PDT community about her 26 months old daughter and separation anxiety she’s having at bedtime.

We discuss:

• Why daytime connection and boundaries matter for bedtime
• How to approach their disapproval with boundaries
• Strategies to provide some control for your toddler while you maintain boundaries

Make sure to listen to the wrap-up as I share principles that can apply to many various parenting scenarios and for this case—overcoming advancing food anxiety

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00;00;00;00 – 00;00;17;29

Dr. Mona

The strategy that really helps is we have to say the boundary, but we also can give them that control, right. So you are setting the boundary, but you’re in that moment also saying where do you want to be took? She may be again crying and looking at you and be like, no, no, no, you are going to be the calm leader of your home next to her.

 

00;00;18;04 – 00;00;38;10

Dr. Mona

You’re not leaving her at that moment and you are going to literally just talk to her and say, say it again, right? Like and very matter of fact, with the tone that you give and the expectation, it’s time for a bit. Where do you want to be tucked? I don’t want to be touched. I don’t like that. I know you don’t like that, but it’s time for a bit.

 

00;00;38;12 – 00;00;54;08

Dr. Mona

Where do you want to be touched? And it’s going to feel like a broken record. But the more she realizes that you are not budging and you’re not leaving, see how like the difference is that you’re there and telling her what the boundary is, but you’re not joining her in the okay, let me take you out. Do you want a glass of water?

 

00;00;54;08 – 00;01;01;27

Dr. Mona

Do you want to go get orange juice? Do you want to go do this? You are being very clear next to her crib.

 

00;01;01;29 – 00;01;26;04

Dr. Mona

Hey everyone, welcome back to the PedsDocTalk podcast. This show continues to grow because of you and your reviews and your shares on social media. How you tell your family members. So thank you so much for tuning in and for also sharing this resource with so many other people. On this episode of Monday Morning. So Doctor Mona, I get to talk to another parent from the PDT community about a concern that she has.

 

00;01;26;06 – 00;01;50;10

Dr. Mona

I am loving this series because I get to have that back and forth nuance that is often lacking in parenting education. We get to talk about what’s been working, what hasn’t been working, and really, you get to hear the troubleshooting that goes behind these conversations. On this episode, I welcome Amna, who has a daughter named Aisha who is struggling with that toddler separation anxiety at bedtime.

 

00;01;50;12 – 00;02;10;10

Dr. Mona

Not only is she kind of struggling when she goes down in her crib, but also having some frequent awakenings when she was actually sleeping through the night for so long. So in this episode, you’re going to hear how this happened. What the family has been doing, and my recommendations to get that toddler back to independent sleep. Let’s tune in.

 

00;02;10;13 – 00;02;18;28

Dr. Mona

Oh, hey on that. Thank you so much for joining me on the show. Tell me what is on your mind today. As a mom.

 

00;02;19;01 – 00;02;41;04

Amna

I want to thank you so much for having me. So, yeah, my daughter Isaac, she is just under 28 months. And, you know, she’s been asleep change since about 7 or 8 months. Via. Try it out, I said. And if she ever had regressions, I never really had to intervene, as she was always able to just kind of self-soothe within, like ten minutes or so.

 

00;02;41;19 – 00;02;52;13

Amna

However, recently she’s been giving us a tough time with either falling asleep on her own or just waking up multiple times throughout the night, specifically calling out for me.

 

00;02;52;15 – 00;03;05;00

Dr. Mona

And when do you think it’ll change? Because I know you mentioned that she was actually doing pretty well. I know she’s 28 months, so when do you think you noticed that shift in wanting you at bedtime? The wake ups. Or maybe they happen at different times.

 

00;03;05;02 – 00;03;27;22

Amna

Yeah. So definitely it’s been like about two months now. Incidentally, when, you know, around that time, like right before the started intensifying at home, we did take like our very first family vacation. And when we were away, she wasn’t always, like, comfortable in the park and play. So we had like no choice. But she would like, sleep in the bed with us.

 

00;03;27;24 – 00;03;49;04

Amna

And I think another important thing to note is that she does have a sibling on the way, like next month. And so I just feel like, oh, she’s like, thank you, thank you. But I do feel like she’s sensing something. And so I feel like, you know, it’s been about two months consistently now. I obviously look like, very pregnant.

 

00;03;49;04 – 00;03;59;21

Amna

And so I just feel like a combination of being outside of her element. Plus also just kind of seeing some changes at home. You know, maybe those are factors as well.

 

00;03;59;24 – 00;04;22;27

Dr. Mona

Absolutely. And this can be multifactorial. So you’re talking about when a child has changes in their sleep routine. You mentioned that there’s another child on the way. Absolutely. A toddler child can recognize that and say, oh, well, there’s going to be a possible change in the attention focus in this House. And then also, you mentioned that you all traveled, which is a huge reason why toddlers can shift their sleep hygiene, if you will.

 

00;04;22;27 – 00;04;40;00

Dr. Mona

And then the number three thing, which is actually one of the biggest things, is around this age, is where we do start to see separation anxiety at bedtimes or toddler sleep stalling, right? They’re normally able to put them down and you’re able to walk out the door, but now they’re like one more book, five more books. Mommy. Kissy.

 

00;04;40;00 – 00;04;59;16

Dr. Mona

Okay, no, they’re there. And you’re over doing this sort of routine, trying to fulfill their whims, you know, and their desires. And so I’m sure you probably see this combination happening. Tell me what exactly is happening at bedtime. Is she doing that stalling? Is she crying when you leave the room? I would like to know more about what’s happening when you put her down.

 

00;04;59;19 – 00;05;01;20

Dr. Mona

And is she still in a crib, or is she in a bed because.

 

00;05;01;21 – 00;05;04;01

Amna

She is in the crib? Okay, perfect. Yeah.

 

00;05;04;01 – 00;05;05;06

Dr. Mona

So what’s happening?

 

00;05;05;09 – 00;05;26;16

Amna

Yeah. So basically all of a sudden what started happening was like, usually before it’s like I just put her down, she’s still awake and like, you know, I kissed her goodnight and she would just, you know, maybe take five maximum ten minutes to fall asleep. And as well. But now it’s like I put her down and as I’m walking away, she starts crying.

 

00;05;26;16 – 00;05;39;13

Amna

She’s standing up. She’s like, as you know, just calling out for me. And, that was like the biggest, like, wait, like, where did this come from? You know, and yeah, so, so that’s what happens when we’re putting her down.

 

00;05;39;16 – 00;05;47;09

Dr. Mona

And then what happens when she does do that crying out for you, that sort of mommy come back or what is she exactly doing in those situations and how do you respond?

 

00;05;47;11 – 00;06;11;10

Amna

Okay. So she’s not like doing any kind of stalling per se. She’s literally just kind of asking for me. I did want to give a little bit of background. So when we first trained Eyes, you know, and, you know, we chose to do the cried out, that was kind of like a last resort. And so before was like, I was never able to soothe her back, like if I tried rocking her brother in our bed, which I know is, like, not even safe.

 

00;06;11;10 – 00;06;36;24

Amna

Anyway, it was just, you know, desperate measures. Right? So, and then, like, the frequency of her weakness just kept increasing. And so before doing, like, a very, like, cold turkey, try it out method, we did try doing like the check ins thing, but that was just making things worse for her. And so what happened was when this all started, it was just something about the way that she was crying that I just, I don’t know, inside.

 

00;06;36;24 – 00;07;05;27

Amna

I just kind of felt like it was something different. You know, maybe it’s because it’s older. And she set up some language, you know, but like, I started to cave and do all those things that I promised myself I would never do. But as expected, she couldn’t be soothed with any of those things. And so lately, the only way we’ve been able to figure out how to survive the night is if either myself or my husband camp out on the guest bed that’s in her room, at least until she falls asleep.

 

00;07;05;27 – 00;07;23;24

Amna

And then we kind of walk out. After doing that for a couple of weeks, I tried leaving her like the way that I normally did, and since she stopped crying, I thought it’d be a worth a shot to like, let her try it out again. And so we did that and that was really hard. But it works. But only for a couple weeks.

 

00;07;23;27 – 00;07;47;21

Amna

So now, like lately, what we’re back at is again, I put her down and she is crying. And not just that, but she’s waking up in the night like the other night. I think she woke up almost like every hour. Thankfully I haven’t been needing to bring her into bed, but it’s like, constant, like having to get up and, you know, just rubbing her back and just letting her know that, like, hey, I’m here.

 

00;07;47;22 – 00;07;54;15

Amna

You know, you’re kind of either supervisor, but mama, mama that, you know, and that kind of thing. And, you know, it’s been rough.

 

00;07;54;17 – 00;08;10;25

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And also, you’re very pregnant, so you’re very pregnant. You have another baby that is going to have your attention too. So I think this timing of this conversation is really great. Now, I think first I want to preface this by saying that you mentioned that, you know, you did things that you didn’t expect too. That is kind of what parenting is all about, right?

 

00;08;10;25 – 00;08;25;21

Dr. Mona

You’re going to run for what you have. You’re going to make decisions that make sense for your child. Right? So you said that you didn’t cry it out method as a last resort, but then you ended up doing this method where you’re kind of in the room. I want to normalize it. These are all okay methods, right? These are all parenting choices that we make.

 

00;08;25;21 – 00;08;42;12

Dr. Mona

So first, okay that you did that. Now it’s all about what your goal is like. If you want her to be independent sleeping again we have to get to that with certain baby steps or kind of understanding her development. The second comment I have is you mentioned that, you know, you do cry it out or use a method when they’re an infant.

 

00;08;42;14 – 00;09;02;11

Dr. Mona

It does feel different when they are verbalizing and toddlers, meaning somehow five minutes of a toddler crying is different than five minutes of a six month old crying. It all is not easy to hear, don’t get me wrong, but right toddler is saying mommy, mommy, I love you. Come back. That is going to be really hard and I respect that.

 

00;09;02;11 – 00;09;24;12

Dr. Mona

I want you to know that from a developmental standpoint, what is really important that we’re going to have to do is really set the stage on how can we prevent her from getting upset in these separation moments when you have to say goodbye and also what to do when you do leave the room? And she does cry because consistency is going to be really important.

 

00;09;24;12 – 00;09;27;02

Dr. Mona

Now, I know you probably have a bedtime routine correct.

 

00;09;27;19 – 00;09;28;13

Amna

Yeah.

 

00;09;28;15 – 00;09;37;02

Dr. Mona

Is she trying to negotiate the bedtime routine with you or. The bedtime routine is pretty standard. It’s just when she goes into the crib is when there’s kind of more of a descent if you will.

 

00;09;37;04 – 00;09;46;21

Amna

Yeah. Yeah. So everything up until putting her in the crib. She’s totally fine with, you know perfect. So that part thankfully that’s all the same it once I put her down. Okay.

 

00;09;46;26 – 00;10;03;04

Dr. Mona

So we if for anyone listening who’s not doing a consistent bedtime routine, that is really important to have your routine and your boundaries said that I’m going to read, we’re going to read two books. You can decide which books they are. We’re going to read two books. Mommy’s going to give you kiss goodnight, and we are going to put you into your crib or your bed.

 

00;10;03;04 – 00;10;24;08

Dr. Mona

Now, have you spoken to her about what the routine is going to look like? And also the expectation of what’s going to happen at bedtime like that? She like, I know you mentioned that you’re going to sleep here. Mommy’s going to sleep in a different room. Have you spoken to that with her before the bedtime? Actually happens, like during the day or, you know, in the middle of the morning or anything like that?

 

00;10;24;10 – 00;10;46;26

Amna

I tried it a couple times. You know, I guess that’s not something I could say that I was being consistent about. But, you know, yesterday, for example, like I was, I didn’t mention it while we were like, you know, getting into our PJs, in our reading some books. And I was like, okay, so, you know, like when mom is going to put you down and then I’m going to go outside, you know, so like the words that I know that she like, understands.

 

00;10;46;26 – 00;10;51;09

Amna

And she was nodding her head like she understood. But, you know, it just didn’t work. So. Right.

 

00;10;51;15 – 00;11;10;28

Dr. Mona

So it’s really important. Yeah. Not even just at the bedtime, but like just throughout the day, you know, like, oh, we’re going to get some rest on your own and it’s going to be very good for you to rest, you know, and like really empowering her to understand that this is something that’s really great for her, that when she rests on her own, she’s doing something like a big girl that you are going to meet there in the morning.

 

00;11;11;04 – 00;11;29;20

Dr. Mona

And I find that one thing that really helps is, well, two things is giving them some sense of control. And then we’ll talk about that first. And then the other thing is going to be letting them look forward to something in the morning. So let’s talk about the control aspect. One of the big things that can work is she’s in a crib.

 

00;11;29;23 – 00;11;43;21

Dr. Mona

When a child is feeling like you’re going to leave them or, you know, they feel like there’s a boundary that they don’t want to do, right. So the boundary here is she doesn’t want to sleep alone. Okay. That’s kind of what we’re trying to teach. So by giving her some control, where do you want me to tuck you not.

 

00;11;43;21 – 00;12;00;20

Dr. Mona

It’s time for bed. Are you ready for bed? You don’t want to use an open ended question. You’re going to say things like, it’s time for nap or it’s time for sleep. It’s time for rest. We are going to rest our body. So you’re using statements versus questions to present yourself like the authority figure that you are. Right.

 

00;12;00;22 – 00;12;18;25

Dr. Mona

And so I want you to really start to do a lot of statement driven phrases. So it’s time for bed. And then where do you want me to tuck you? Which stuffed animal do you want? That’s fine if you do questions that point, but you’re stating the boundary as a statement and then you’re allowing them some control, right?

 

00;12;18;25 – 00;12;33;04

Dr. Mona

So you’re allowing them some of the control because Ryan went through the same thing. And I found that what was happening is then they get so like they want to have control. So then you start to say, no, tuck me here, tuck me here, I want this. And it’s like, okay, you made a decision. Where do you want it?

 

00;12;33;04 – 00;12;45;26

Dr. Mona

And so you tuck them and then you playfully play with her and you’re like, okay, great. That’s a great choice. I think that’s wonderful. So I’m going to tuck you here. And who do you want next to you? And maybe she has a stuffed animal. Does she have a security item like a stuffed animal.

 

00;12;46;12 – 00;12;50;19

Amna

Yeah. She has like, one of those, like, little movies that she likes.

 

00;12;50;21 – 00;13;09;01

Dr. Mona

Okay. And so I want her to have that lovey with her, let her tuck it next to her, and then you’re going to tuck her in after she decides where in the crib you’re taking her. And you can make this very playful. Okay, it’s time for bed. Now. I’m going to, you know, the mommy dinosaur and mommy monster is going to come and put the blanket on you just make it obviously loving and all that.

 

00;13;09;04 – 00;13;28;14

Dr. Mona

So she’s getting that connection from you because of course, they’re doing all of this because they have FOMO. They don’t want to be left alone, but they also can do it because they she wants connection. Bringing me to that comment that you mentioned that you have another baby coming, that she may want to hold out and call for you because she wants more points of connection.

 

00;13;28;14 – 00;13;47;13

Dr. Mona

So in your routine, in your daily life, you are going to add moments of connection whenever physically, emotionally you’re able to. I get you’re not going to need to be attached to her at all times, but giving her way more moments like 5 or 10 minutes of undivided time during the day, really being very consistent with boundaries during the day.

 

00;13;47;13 – 00;14;06;09

Dr. Mona

So she has an understanding that mommy has these rules. Daddy has these rules. But also I’m feeling the connection with them during the day that I’m going to now be able to be secure enough to be on my own at night. The second thing that I brought up, besides the control aspect, is allowing her to look forward to something.

 

00;14;06;09 – 00;14;25;13

Dr. Mona

So when you are tucking her in or talking to her at bedtime, I want you to not only talk about the importance of sleep, but say you’re going to rest your body. What are you very excited about in the morning? Who do you want to see in the morning? Right? Oh, I want to see mommy. Okay. Mommy’s going to come and give you a big hug and kiss in the morning.

 

00;14;25;19 – 00;14;44;12

Dr. Mona

What this does in their brain is understand that you are going to leave, that there is an expectation that we are going to leave that room at some point and you are going to return, right? This is all about secure attachment. Her nerves is that she feels that maybe you’re not going to come back. Right. And that’s not you’re obviously coming back, but the toddler brain is still kind of understanding.

 

00;14;44;12 – 00;14;57;16

Dr. Mona

Well wait, is she going to come? Is this other baby going to come into my life and take my attention away? So you are reassuring her that who do you want to see in the morning? What do you want to do? I want to play with daddy. Okay. Daddy is going to be at work, right? You have to be honest.

 

00;14;57;16 – 00;15;16;08

Dr. Mona

Like, if daddy is not going to be there, you know? Okay, what about mommy? Mommy is going to be at work, but maybe grandma will be there, right? So you’re setting up the story and the expectation, and you have to remember that whatever you’re setting up, there has to be some reality to it. Like, I don’t want her to have missed promises that you say, okay, mommy will see you in the morning, but then you’re not there, right?

 

00;15;16;08 – 00;15;32;03

Dr. Mona

Like, right. You have to be very honest with who is going to be there in the morning and what’s going to happen in the morning, and also use breakfast as a excitement thing. Right. What do you want for breakfast tomorrow? Oh, mommy, I want berries. Okay. Yes, mommy can do that. We can add some berries. And do you want whatever.

 

00;15;32;03 – 00;15;52;17

Dr. Mona

Right. So you’re what you’re doing in this is that you are setting up control for her to decide. Okay? Even though my parents are making this boundary, I have some sense of control in where I’m sleeping. Meaning, like where I want to be tucked, which stuffed animals I have. And then also I’m looking forward to something. And that may be seeing my mom’s face or my dad’s face or whoever is going to come in in the morning.

 

00;15;53;00 – 00;16;16;08

Dr. Mona

So I really can help all that brain activity that’s like, what’s going to happen? Who’s going to be there? What am I going to do tomorrow? We are just setting up an expectation. And for some children this can look like verbal, which is what we do as a family or a visual board. Right? Like a routine board that they have where it’s like you’re going to go to bed and in the morning this is going to happen, because that way their brain is primed that there is an expectation here.

 

00;16;16;08 – 00;16;35;08

Dr. Mona

So they’re not nervous to be left alone. Right? A lot of her calling out a lot of her meeting you is beautiful. And I go back to that comment that it’s okay that she wants her parents there. I think that’s very natural. But we can’t teach her that. It’s okay if I leave and I will come back in the morning.

 

00;16;35;08 – 00;16;42;23

Dr. Mona

Now, what happens when she does the wake ups in the middle of the night? Same thing. You’re like, kind of holding her, rocking her a little bit like you mentioned.

 

00;16;42;26 – 00;17;01;27

Amna

No, no. So I mean, if it’s one of those nights where, like, one of us ends up just, like, camping out on the guest bed, because we’re just so exhausted. We do try to avoid bringing her in beds. Was just, like, constantly walking up to her, rubbing her back, you know, trying to, you know, get her to lay back down and that kind of thing.

 

00;17;01;27 – 00;17;21;17

Amna

So I really have been trying to, like, not pick her up because when I did that in the very, very beginning, when this started, it just started like I can just see, like everything that we sleep. Yeah, it was unraveling. So it was like and I was like, okay, you know, so since I would say, I don’t know if it was like a month in or what, but I don’t even remember.

 

00;17;21;17 – 00;17;39;19

Amna

But when we did do the try it out again and it like worked for a couple of weeks, ever since then I was like, okay, well, I’m not going to go back to like picking her up and putting her in bed with us because it just gets to a point where like, then she wakes up and then she’s rolling around in bed and like, nobody’s sleeping.

 

00;17;39;23 – 00;18;00;24

Amna

Just it’s just not helping anyone. So yeah. So nowadays, you know, for the last couple of weeks when she has been waking up, we just try to, like, rub her back and just reassure her that we’re there and that she’s okay, and then she’ll ultimately fall back asleep. So I guess, like, the hard thing for me is like, you know, is she not feeling well?

 

00;18;00;25 – 00;18;15;11

Amna

Because in the midst of all of this, there was a short period of time where, like, she was having, you know, a little bit of like a cold. And so I knew, like, her nose was bothering her. And then I’m like, man, is she having, like, a bad dream? Like, there’s just so many things that go through your mind.

 

00;18;15;11 – 00;18;36;27

Amna

But yeah. So I think that’s probably like the hardest thing for me, because everything that you mentioned about her emotions, like, I guess that’s the hardest part for me, that I just feel like she has so much more awareness and she knows her emotions, like she knows what it means to be sad and to be scared and, you know, so I just don’t ever want her to feel like especially with the baby coming.

 

00;18;36;27 – 00;19;01;26

Amna

I don’t want her to feel neglected. And we’re just kind of like dismissing her. Which is why, like, I kind of reverted back into intervening to some degree, but it’s just like, where is that balance? Like, yeah, where do I find the point where we’re not also like just all going crazy and and then for her as well, I mean, she’s obviously when she doesn’t get enough sleep, then she’s cranky.

 

00;19;01;26 – 00;19;04;21

Amna

And so I think that’s probably like the hardest part.

 

00;19;04;23 – 00;19;20;19

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And I think I agree with what you’re saying in that if our goal is independent sleep, we do not prefer to bring her into the bed. Now, I say that because I get it that some people it’s like easier done that way and that’s what they want. But then we’re not teaching the independent sleep skills which we are trying to do here.

 

00;19;20;25 – 00;19;42;10

Dr. Mona

So in these moments, I first want to say with the what you mentioned about the illness. Now if she’s healthy throughout the day, right, like she’s happy, no fever, happy, great the first time she wakes up. I agree, as a mother and a pediatrician that if Ryan all of a sudden woke up one night or, you know, was up that first time in the night, I would check to make sure that he doesn’t feel warm, that everything’s good.

 

00;19;42;10 – 00;20;00;09

Dr. Mona

Now at that point, right. If everything is good, meaning there’s no fever and the child was completely fine during the day, you want to set the expectation and what’s going to happen at that moment, right? Like, hey, sweetie, everything looks good, I love you. So you just did a check in here, right? I will see you in. And they don’t understand.

 

00;20;00;09 – 00;20;21;10

Dr. Mona

Minutes. But you are going to go back to sleep. I love you, I’m here for you. I will see you in the morning and then you calmly. Everything has to be delivered super calm. And I’m telling you, when you’re sleep deprived and tired, the calmness content to go out the window. But the calmness advice also goes into if she’s not wanting you to leave at the bedtime, right?

 

00;20;21;10 – 00;20;38;09

Dr. Mona

So you have to kind of stay in there with her without saying a word and almost just be in there with her while she gets upset and you’re just going to look at her and be like, it’s time for bed. You’re repeating your boundary in a very calm way. She may say, no, mommy, out, out, out, no mommy out.

 

00;20;38;11 – 00;20;56;16

Dr. Mona

It’s time for bed. Where do you want to be tucked? It’s time for bed. Do you want your stuffed animal? You are repeating your boundary in the room until she goes back down. Because if she feels like there’s any wiggle room for negotiation where you’re just going to sleep in that room until she falls asleep, that’s what she’s going to expect every time.

 

00;20;56;16 – 00;21;13;25

Dr. Mona

Now, when she wakes up in the middle of the night, right? It’s almost like an infant who gets a sleep association. So is that a bad thing? No, but your parenting goal is not to have her do that. And I understand that, like, especially with the new baby coming. So we have to kind of set that expectation that I’m going to be super consistent in what we’re going to do.

 

00;21;13;25 – 00;21;32;18

Dr. Mona

So you and your partner want her to sleep on her own where you are physically, not in the room, and then we are going to set that expectation for her that I’m going to put you to sleep. You’re going to do the control aspect of what are you looking forward to in the morning, all those tips. But you’re also going to say, I love you and I will check in with you in the morning and you’re going to leave.

 

00;21;32;22 – 00;21;50;27

Dr. Mona

And then when she does wake up again in the middle of the night, this is when it becomes a parenting decision between you and your partner that are you going to check up on her on the monitor, make sure she’s safe, right? Or are you going to do almost like a mini Ferber where you’re kind of going in like 5 to 10 minute check ins, right?

 

00;21;50;27 – 00;22;12;11

Dr. Mona

Like being true to the time. And when you go in though, you are doing that same calm conversation and not picking her, like you said, back up into the bed, anything like that. Because that’s just going to continue, right? So when you go back, right, we are having and this is going to take some work, but if you do do check ins throughout the night, you’re going to go back in and repeat the boundary calmly.

 

00;22;12;13 – 00;22;30;24

Dr. Mona

It is time for bed. I can take you out right now. I can’t take you out. You have to sleep in this crib. Where do you want to be tucked? The strategy that really helps is we have to say the boundary, but we also can give them that control. Right. So you are setting the boundary, but you’re in that moment also saying where do you want to be?

 

00;22;30;26 – 00;22;51;29

Dr. Mona

She may be again crying and looking at you and be like, no, no, no, you are going to be the calm leader of your home next to her. You’re not leaving her at that moment, and you are going to literally just talk to her and say, say it again, right? Like and very matter of fact, with the tone that you give and the expectation, it’s time for bed.

 

00;22;52;06 – 00;23;07;13

Dr. Mona

Where do you want to be tucked? I don’t want to be touched. I don’t like that. I know you don’t like that, but it’s time for bed. Where do you want to be tucked? And it’s going to feel like a broken record. But the more she realizes that you are not budging and you’re not leaving, see what the difference is?

 

00;23;07;13 – 00;23;32;03

Dr. Mona

That you’re there and telling her what the boundary is, but you’re not joining her in the. Okay, let me take you out. Do you want a glass of water? Do you want to go get orange juice? Do you want to go do this? You are being very clear next to her crib. And if she starts to climb out, right, like I’ve had this happen with my own son, that he’ll get so upset that he wants to climb out, I will gently hold him and say, we can’t climb out, we have to stay in our crib.

 

00;23;32;09 – 00;23;51;27

Dr. Mona

And then I’m like, this is where we’re sleeping tonight. And I literally stay with him until he understands and calms down. Now, if you’re getting into a cycle where you’re literally at her crib for ten minutes, right, trying to do this, then you also have to repeat the boundary and say, I love you. You’re safe. I will see you in the morning, I love you, you’re safe.

 

00;23;52;04 – 00;24;09;06

Dr. Mona

I’ll see you in the morning. This helps so that your comment that you said that you don’t want her to feel unsafe, she’s not unsafe. You are a loving parent. Tell this. She’s going to see you in the morning. But when she’s upset, you can tell her. I see that you’re upset. I see that you want mommy. Mommy has to sleep somewhere else.

 

00;24;09;13 – 00;24;26;01

Dr. Mona

I will see you in the morning. You are safe and I love you. You are safe and I love you and the safe and I love you. Commentary can really help them, not only at the bedtime, but do this during the day too, like I mentioned, right? You were going to remind her that she is safe and she is loved and that mommy leaves and comes back.

 

00;24;26;01 – 00;24;33;10

Dr. Mona

Daddy leaves and comes back so she understands that this is what we do. I am safe in this place and that’s how we’re going to approach it.

 

00;24;33;12 – 00;24;40;01

Amna

Got it. You know, the interesting thing is that like she also goes to daycare. And a daycare like this is never an issue.

 

00;24;40;02 – 00;24;56;09

Dr. Mona

Now of course it’s not. It’s never because they love you. I mean, let’s be honest, they love you. And for some kids, every kid will go through this to some degree. Okay. Like, yeah, I had it too. But it’s all about how we are approaching it, meaning not joining their chaos and saying, okay, let’s get out of the crib.

 

00;24;56;09 – 00;25;14;08

Dr. Mona

Fine. Let’s take you into bed. I want to reiterate that I do not mind when a parent does that, but what that is teaching the child is that that is what’s going to be the new normal. Now, if that’s what the normal is, great. But I don’t think that a family who had a baby, who was sleeping through the night on their own, is now going to be okay with that being the new normal.

 

00;25;14;08 – 00;25;35;01

Dr. Mona

When you know that she is capable of this, you know that she has it in her. She’s done it as an infant and as a toddler. She’s smarter. So rather than looking at it as like I’m depriving her by not being there, what I like to look at this as is my child is very smart and I am capable, and we are capable of teaching her how to sleep on her own.

 

00;25;35;05 – 00;25;57;16

Dr. Mona

She’s going to do this. It may take a little bit of work. It may be very hard, but I know she’s done this, and I know her toddler brain is way more advanced than an infant brain. And if she could have done this as an infant, she’s going to be able to handle this as a toddler. Even with the love for you, the separation anxiety you are giving her, that secure expectation that you are returning back in the morning.

 

00;25;57;16 – 00;26;02;08

Dr. Mona

You are returning back in ten minutes. Whatever. You’re going to do, your check ins as you decide, as a family.

 

00;26;02;10 – 00;26;11;01

Amna

Yeah. Is it interesting that like she’s okay and drop off, but like that time is just like it’s like the absolutely normal.

 

00;26;11;01 – 00;26;28;18

Dr. Mona

No, I hear this all the time because we have that is their time that they’re leaving you in their brain. They came home from school, right. They may like school a lot. And they may think that this is an amazing thing. They have their friends, they have distractions. But now when they go to their bed, but now when they go into their bed, it’s just their bed.

 

00;26;28;18 – 00;26;48;00

Dr. Mona

They’re alone. Right? And they’re solo. They don’t have the distraction of their peers or teacher. And when they come home to you, they have you. And now it’s like, wait, oh, this is done. Like my time with you is done. It’s so and so. That’s why I bring back that connection throughout the day. And as a working mother, like I work to, those connections don’t have to be grand, right?

 

00;26;48;00 – 00;27;03;16

Dr. Mona

I’m talking like, turn off your cell phones, get connected for ten minutes, or maybe the hour before bed as much as you can after you pick her up from school. Depending on what you have to do in your day. But giving her that one on one connection and reminding her I love spending time with you when you’re awake.

 

00;27;03;16 – 00;27;19;08

Dr. Mona

This is so much fun and I cannot wait. When you wake up tomorrow well-rested, you’re just kind of planting the seed of, like, what we’re expecting and what she’s going to get out of sleeping on her own is she going to always do it? I can’t expect that. I’m not going to say that she’s going to sleep all of a sudden, like through the night.

 

00;27;19;11 – 00;27;41;14

Dr. Mona

But then that’s when it comes back to that. How am I going to approach this with my partner going curbside, repeating the boundary ever so calmly? And you heard how I my tone, that very matter of fact and very calm meaning it’s there’s no dysregulation there in my tone. This is what’s happening. This is what we’re doing. And they will stare at you and cry in your face, okay?

 

00;27;41;14 – 00;28;01;13

Dr. Mona

Like they’re going to stare back at you and say, mommy, I love you. And you’re going to say, I love you too, right? You’re meeting them with the emotional need, but you’re also holding the boundary that the crib is where we’re going to sleep tonight, and that is what we’re going to do now. When you start to take them out and allow them out, it’s dysregulation central because then that becomes their new normal.

 

00;28;01;13 – 00;28;11;07

Dr. Mona

And this is how we’re going to actually cause change. Is that consistency. You know the consistency in the routine and how we stay calm with that boundary that we’re trying to hold.

 

00;28;11;09 – 00;28;32;06

Amna

Right. I am kind of anticipating that to so I’m having another daughter. And she’s expected to come at the end of the month next month. And so my mom is going to be here to help out. But as you may know, and, you know, perhaps your own parents or your husband, parents, like, they are just I mean, like, my mom is just not going to let me let her.

 

00;28;32;08 – 00;29;01;21

Amna

Yeah. Yeah. So I’m just kind of expecting like, I know that like in those initial weeks when we bring the baby home, like it’s just going to be survival mode and like, I just can’t, you know, I’m already expecting that things are probably going to get a little messed up at that time. But what I was hoping was that if we can between now and then, if we can come up, like you said, if I start implementing these things, hopefully when I have to retrain her again, you know, once my mom is gone and we’re back to just that.

 

00;29;01;22 – 00;29;06;22

Amna

Yes, hopefully it’ll be faster. I mean, I mean, that’s yeah, it will. Yeah.

 

00;29;06;25 – 00;29;22;15

Dr. Mona

And these strategies are what you’re going to use when you want to retrain. I get these strategies. It’s going to be hard when there’s a grandma, a mother in law especially, or a mom, because they may not understand what you’re trying to do. But remember, with them just say like, we’re helping her out. She’s capable of sleeping.

 

00;29;22;15 – 00;29;39;25

Dr. Mona

And show them that you are proud of your child and that you know that she’s a capable human being. Like whenever my in-laws or my parents, and usually it’s two people. It’s my mother in law and my dad. So my mom and my father in law are actually pretty good. And so it’s actually the other out, but it’s my mother in law and my dad.

 

00;29;39;26 – 00;29;54;19

Dr. Mona

We’re like, you can’t do that. Did it? Why this did it. And I’m like. And I literally just say, I’m like, I hear you. But I really think that Ryan is very capable, and I know he can do this. And if he can’t all go in, dad will go in, right? They don’t need to be the one going in.

 

00;29;54;19 – 00;30;10;06

Dr. Mona

Now, if it’s becoming a power struggle with the other caregivers, I agree with you. You have to pick and choose your battles, and I don’t want you to get upset because you’re postpartum and your mother in law mom is saying, do this and don’t do this. And you’re like, so then exactly what? You said that you were going to redo this all.

 

00;30;10;06 – 00;30;27;12

Dr. Mona

When your house is back to yourself, right? You’re going to re-implement these strategies. And these are the same strategies that I would use when the baby’s here. Right. And look, it could be like this. Or you could do all these techniques in the next 2 to 3 weeks and actually see change. And I’m hopeful and I think it’s going to work.

 

00;30;27;14 – 00;30;44;11

Dr. Mona

But yes, you are right that when we do have to retrain it, you’re just going to use the same strategies now as to how long it’s going to take. It could take a week or two. I can’t read, none of us can predict how they’re going to do, because now at that point, the reason is she’s feeling like, you know, there’s another baby.

 

00;30;44;11 – 00;31;03;25

Dr. Mona

And that she wants attention, but you’re still going to give that same points, right? You’re going to connect with her when you can, whether that’s dad, I kind of may want to encourage you to have dad start doing some bedtime routine. Or if he’s not already, before, because he’s going to be probably one that’s doing it so that we don’t want that to be a new surprise for her.

 

00;31;04;01 – 00;31;19;11

Dr. Mona

So when you get this going, make sure that you are divvying up the bedtime routine so that she feels that this is also the normal now, that it’s not only going to be mommy or only be daddy, it’s going to be a mix here. So there’s an expectation there when you’re preoccupied with the newborn, right? Right.

 

00;31;19;15 – 00;31;36;24

Dr. Mona

But yeah, that’s how I’ll approach it. And I always say hope for the best, never feel like it’s going to be dread and fear. But prepare for pivoting, right? Prepare for what’s going to happen if you need to troubleshoot. But I want you to hope for the best. This could be amazing, and I don’t want us to feel ourselves with dread that it’s going to be this disaster.

 

00;31;36;24 – 00;31;46;20

Dr. Mona

It’s going to be what it is, and you’re going to navigate it with these tools and with all the tools you learn as a, you know, two time mom also navigating this journey, you know, with your partner and even just alone.

 

00;31;47;10 – 00;32;04;06

Amna

Yeah, I know I keep telling my husband to I was like you know she might surprise us. Like we’re thinking, you know, we’re thinking all this or this is going to happen. But she also I mean she’s a smart kid you know. And she picks up on things quickly. And she is very independent in general. Like that’s just her personality.

 

00;32;04;09 – 00;32;23;10

Amna

She wants to do everything herself. I mean, she’s just like a little bit younger than Ryan, so I’m sure, you know, like just the constant, like, know me, do let me do it. And there’s like everything has she wants to do it, which is all great. And it’s like literally. I mean, I’m grateful in a way that this is the only struggle that I am having is with the sleep time.

 

00;32;23;27 – 00;32;33;08

Amna

But like with other things, like, I do feel like you said, you know, she’s very capable and it’s just a matter of, like, we just need to be consistent. Yes.

 

00;32;33;08 – 00;32;51;09

Dr. Mona

So it’s just, I mean, yeah, if I could write a book, which I hope to write a book, and the book title should be The Consistency and No Pressure of Parenting. Like, the more pressure we give and the less consistency we give. That is when boundaries go to shit. Okay, like, you definitely need to understand that when we say no pressure, right?

 

00;32;51;09 – 00;33;03;13

Dr. Mona

Meaning, okay, where are we going to go? And pressure is oh my God, like, can you just go to sleep like that is going to cause her to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. My mom is getting a little irate here. You’re like, you know, you want to be very like, this is what we’re doing. Like, this is what we’re going to do.

 

00;33;03;19 – 00;33;19;14

Dr. Mona

I see that you don’t like it. And they will decide what they do with that. And I know that’s really hard not to not have that control. But like you said, she is very smart. And whenever we’re dealing with all of this stuff with children, especially toddlers, I like to remind parents that they’re doing it because they are very smart.

 

00;33;19;14 – 00;33;38;14

Dr. Mona

But you know what’s even better? We’re smarter. Okay, you’re smarter. We know that everything in parenting is almost like a game of chicken. My husband and I joke about this that it’s who’s going to cave first? Are we going to just sit there and let her be upset or let our son in our example, be upset, and then just be there and let him have his feelings?

 

00;33;38;18 – 00;33;56;21

Dr. Mona

Or are we going to allow that behavior to take him out of the crib, give him something else from the kitchen, do whatever it is that they don’t want to do, and you know that this boundary is a healthy boundary. And I am hoping that this conversation helped and reassuring you that you’ve checked your boxes there to understand that she’s not sick as long as she’s well.

 

00;33;56;28 – 00;34;17;25

Dr. Mona

You know that developmentally, I hope that I can reassure you that letting her cry for a little periods, the five minutes, the ten minutes you checking in in the morning, she’s not going to cry till morning, I promise you. Okay? She’s not that great a morning at all. It’s not going to happen like that. But you’re understanding that you are giving her the expectation and the connection when you show up in the morning, you are giving her connection.

 

00;34;18;03 – 00;34;32;23

Dr. Mona

At the bedtime, you are going to her crib side. If that’s what you choose to do, and talk to her and say, I love you, I see that you’re really upset. It’s time for bed and just staying with her, like standing there and like not saying a word. So that is kind of how you’re going to see those changes happen.

 

00;34;32;26 – 00;34;53;22

Amna

So my question to you is like when we first trained her, when she was like a baby, the check ins at that time like never works. So that’s why we did like, just like a cold turkey cried out. But are you saying that because she’s older now and with my, like, own personal, you know, feelings of it being harder because she was, like, vocalizing so much more.

 

00;34;53;22 – 00;34;55;17

Amna

The check ins might be a better.

 

00;34;56;00 – 00;35;13;29

Dr. Mona

Yes approach. Yes. Yes. I also did a cry method with Ryan as an infant. He was already stretching. But I do believe that as a child gets older, there is a lot more awareness. And so I do believe that the check ins can be helpful. Now, here’s the thing. Your child, it may not be helpful.

 

00;35;13;29 – 00;35;30;11

Dr. Mona

You know, when Ryan went through toddler sleep progressions, the most recent one was about like 20, I would say about the same time, like 26 weeks with like him, like yelling for us at bedtime. And we did do the I love you, sweetie, we’ll see you in the morning. And he would cry for five minutes and stop, because we were very clear on the expectation.

 

00;35;30;11 – 00;35;44;25

Dr. Mona

So I’m saying that you may be surprised that when you start to hold these boundaries and really lay out the expectation, she may cry for only 3 to 5 minutes. And then you know that when you go back in the morning, she’s completely fine because she just wanted to see, well, what’s going to happen if I do the crying, right.

 

00;35;45;16 – 00;36;04;08

Dr. Mona

She’s not in pain. Like, I want to reiterate that when a child is crying, when you leave them, she’s not thinking. They’re not thinking that, oh, my parent doesn’t love me. They’re thinking, is my parent going to come back? And you are going to come back in the morning, right. Like they don’t understand when. But I think that’s something that we have to understand that they will still love you.

 

00;36;04;08 – 00;36;17;20

Dr. Mona

They’re going to love you because they’re going to see you in the morning, or they’re going to see you when they see you next. Right. The concern we have with parents that are not showing up for their kids is more so when there’s no expectation of the caregiver coming back at all, meaning the caregiver is nowhere to be found.

 

00;36;17;27 – 00;36;37;03

Dr. Mona

They’re never showing up. They’re never showing love. There’s not any sort of bonding, but you are providing that for her. So again, I really want to reassure you that whether you do the method where you do check ins or whether you decide, man, the check ins are actually not going well because she is being riled up and she’s getting upset, more upset, she’s getting more dysregulated.

 

00;36;37;06 – 00;36;49;13

Dr. Mona

I’ve been there. Then you can say, this is not working for my child. It’s a decision that we’re making, and let’s just do that. I love you, sweetie. I will see you in the morning when you’re perfectly rested, and then you come back in the morning.

 

00;36;51;01 – 00;37;10;09

Amna

And just like you said too, like I do keep an eye on the monitor just to make sure she’s safe. And then also because she is still in the crib, I just always want to make sure she’s not, you know, I don’t know when she’s going to learn to call out. So that whole business keeping an eye to make sure like she’s not doing something crazy, you know, in the midst of this.

 

00;37;10;15 – 00;37;27;09

Amna

But yeah, but that was my thing of like, deciding. Do we just let her cry it out or do we do the check ins? The other thing, too, is, you know, we are anticipating a lot of changes. So not just with the baby, but then a few months after that, we’re probably going to relocate. She’s going to be in the new school.

 

00;37;27;09 – 00;37;48;15

Amna

So it’s just like there’s a lot of changes coming in this upcoming year. And I just know that, you know, those are times to expect when your toddler’s going to start having these regressions and changes and stuff. And so I just want to like, get better at being stronger with holding boundaries, but also reassuring her that she’s okay and she’s safe.

 

00;37;48;18 – 00;37;57;25

Amna

That’s just like my husband and I is like, biggest goal. Like, we just never want her to feel like we’re purposely, you know, taking her out of her element kind of thing. You know?

 

00;37;57;27 – 00;38;15;29

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And she’s not I can guarantee you that. It’s not so much of these moments in time of like, oh, I, you know, my kids are upset. It’s the big picture, right? It’s the big picture of how we approach all of those moments with our children. Those little moments matter in the, you know, in terms of like, I get with the connection and stuff, but she’s going to be fine.

 

00;38;15;29 – 00;38;37;18

Dr. Mona

And like you said, parenting our childhood, there’s going to be so many things that sleep changes, feed changes, emotional regulation, all of these things that you’re teaching her. And it is about learning to kind of pivot with the moments that you’re in and I like to give these options on this episode. Right. Like on these, in the series, because it isn’t so clear cut as you do this for your child.

 

00;38;37;18 – 00;38;52;08

Dr. Mona

Right? Because some parents may want the I don’t want to let them pry. I want to check in every five. Some people may want the I’ll pull you into bed and deal with it later. And it is okay. None of it is bad, if you will, right? None of it is like detrimental. But it’s like you said, what is your goal here?

 

00;38;52;08 – 00;39;10;09

Dr. Mona

And I hope this was helpful. And I you know, I’ll definitely be touching base to kind of see how things went. And what strategies you use and how the calmness by the crib and very much, you know, setting that control expectation throughout the bedtime routine. Remember, like, where do we go brush our teeth. Where do we do this?

 

00;39;10;13 – 00;39;34;10

Dr. Mona

Where do you want to go? Like you’re letting her show you the routine. You’re letting her show everything in that evening routine so that she feels like she’s the one who’s doing it. When you’re the one who’s, like, actually leading the show. It’s like a trick that really helps them kind of have that sort of compassionate boundary setting where you are the authority, but you still love them and you’re still going to express you know, their needs and attend to them.

 

00;39;34;10 – 00;39;36;10

Dr. Mona

But it is what we need to do.

 

00;39;36;13 – 00;39;39;07

Amna

Yeah. No, absolutely. Thank you so much, Doctor Mona.

 

00;39;39;09 – 00;39;51;09

Dr. Mona

Of course. Yes. And, you know, thank you so much for joining me on this episode. I really hope that you all get some sleep, independent sleep. And that I hope everything goes well with, the baby to come.

 

00;39;51;12 – 00;39;54;14

Amna

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I wanna thank you.

 

00;39;54;21 – 00;39;57;23

Dr. Mona

You know.

 

00;39;57;26 – 00;40;19;25

Dr. Mona

I loved talking with Amna. And you can see that she just really wants to make sure that if she does do a check in method that her child is going to still love her and feel connected. And as a pediatrician and lover of all things child development and connection, I can tell you that you will still have that child who loves you, knows that they are secure in your presence, and will always go to you when they need it.

 

00;40;20;01 – 00;40;39;28

Dr. Mona

As I do in all of my Monday mornings with Doctor Mona episodes, I’m going to wrap up this conversation with three take home point. These are parenting principles that apply to the conversation I had with Amna about separation anxiety at bedtime. But these philosophies can also be applied to other scenarios in your parenting journey. Number one, I said this a few times is consistency.

 

00;40;40;01 – 00;40;56;20

Dr. Mona

We have to come up with a consistent plan. Where is the child going to be sleeping? Are we going to be pulling the child out of the crib? I hope not, because that’s just going to create a new sleep association. How long are the check ins going to be? Are we going to do one minute, build it up to two minutes, build it up to three minutes?

 

00;40;56;26 – 00;41;13;01

Dr. Mona

Who is going to be the person that goes in for the check ins? What is the person’s demeanor? Obviously we want someone to go in that is staying very calm when the child is upset and being very matter of fact with the boundary, it is time for sleep. I love you so we really want to be consistent with that.

 

00;41;13;01 – 00;41;30;29

Dr. Mona

And already the family had been consistent with a bedtime routine, so focus on a consistent bedtime routine at least a week or two before you start doing this retraining. And then once you have that consistent bedtime routine, you also want to make sure that you have the consistent plan on how you are going to be approaching the sleep when they fall asleep.

 

00;41;31;05 – 00;41;51;28

Dr. Mona

And then also with nighttime weekends, number two goes hand in hand with consistency. It’s decide what your boundary is. I talked to Amna that I want the boundary to be that she’s not going to be pulled into the family’s bed because then that creates that association that that’s what the expectation is going to be. The boundary should be such that we are going to keep her in the crib and that is where she’s going to sleep.

 

00;41;52;04 – 00;42;12;01

Dr. Mona

So we have to be very consistent. Even if she gets upset. That is why the check ins really matter, because when you go in, you are checking in. You are showing her that you are there, that you love her, that it’s going to be okay, and then you’re going to leave and you’re going to come back when that time increases, you want to be very consistent with how long you’re taking to come in.

 

00;42;12;05 – 00;42;28;20

Dr. Mona

And also what is the boundary that you want similar to if you have a child who’s stalling with bedtime, we want to make sure that they understand the routine, that we’re going to have two books. They can choose the books, but that’s as many books as we’re having. We are going to have five minutes of cuddles, and you can even use things like timers, if that really helps.

 

00;42;28;20 – 00;42;49;08

Dr. Mona

You like a visual timer so that they understand what’s happening here. The third thing, which is huge, is avoiding the rise. The big reaction when you do put them down and they start to get upset, or when you are coming back in for nighttime waking, the big rise includes okay, okay, okay, I’ll take you out. Come. The big rise makes them understand that.

 

00;42;49;08 – 00;43;04;25

Dr. Mona

Oh, yes, this is what’s going to happen. I got upset, mommy or daddy or caregiver got upset. We are just going to do this. I’m going to go into the bed and this is going to be our new routine. You want to stay very matter of fact, and you want to stay very calm with how you deliver the boundary.

 

00;43;05;01 – 00;43;25;20

Dr. Mona

The boundary is it’s time for bed. I love you so you are providing that emotional connection. You’re providing what that child needs when they’re calling out for you, which is affection and love, but you are holding on to the boundary. I hope this episode was helpful. As always, if you found it helpful, make sure to leave a review and a rating and call it the episode that you love.

 

00;43;25;23 – 00;43;30;05

Dr. Mona

And I cannot wait to talk to another family next week on this podcast.