Early and open conversations with children about sex are important and especially key to start from a young age. Using proper anatomical terms avoid shame and foster safety. I welcome moms Mary Flo Ridley and Megan Michelson from Birds & Bees, who are helping parents stop feeling nervous about these conversations and instead find empowerment through their guidance and practice.

 

We discuss:

• That open and continuous dialogue about sex and bodily autonomy helps normalize these topics
• How age-appropriate small discussions and explanations are better than having a single, potentially overwhelming conversation like “The Talk” later on.
• The importance of teaching children boundaries like “no means no” in all contexts, including sexual situations

 

To connect with Megan and Mary Flo follow them on Instagram @birds_bees and purchase The Birds & Bees Online Course – use code PEDSDOCTALK20 to get 20% off.

 

Our podcasts are also now on YouTube. If you prefer a video podcast with closed captioning, check us out there and subscribe to PedsDocTalk TV.

 

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on the PedsDocTalk Podcast Sponsorships page of the website.

00;00;00;07 – 00;00;25;10
Mary Flo Ridley
As soon as you are using words with your children on the changing table, you can call their body parts their right. When they’re potty training, you’re talking about privates or you’re talking about body parts. You can talk about seeds and eggs when you’re doing snack time. And instead of joint garbage disposal with that core of apples, you open up deep inside of every living thing is part of what it takes to make the next living thing.

00;00;25;10 – 00;01;01;27
Mary Flo Ridley
Just like you. You’re just bringing up peripheral stories. How did that baby get out of me? Well, this is an exciting story. Buckle up. This is really fun. And and be ready to tell them so it’s it’s important that they know that information, lack of information doesn’t mean an increase in innocence don’t equate sense with ignorance. And so that’s what we want parents to know is that actually ignorance is vulnerability in their vulnerable to hearing those messages and assuming that’s the right thing to hear.

00;01;01;29 – 00;01;22;10
Dr. Mona
Welcome back to the show. It’s Doctor Mona and we have some celebrating to do. My Instagram channel reached 500,000 followers and my mom is one of my biggest fans. And she reminded me and said, no, Mona, not 500,000. Half a million. That’s half a million people in our community. And she’s right. It does have a nice ring to it.

00;01;22;12 – 00;01;45;19
Dr. Mona
And I wanted to share a little backstory behind how grateful I am to get to this milestone on social. My account surged during the pandemic, like many parenting and child health accounts, and during the last two years, I’ve really struggled on social media to grow. You may not see it, but it was a struggle for me. And also, after having Vira and experiencing IVF and postpartum complications again, I lost interest in content creating.

00;01;45;19 – 00;02;08;16
Dr. Mona
I lacked inspiration. PDT was something I had always loved, but I felt discouraged and felt like I wanted to quit. I wanted to end it. I wanted no longer to create content, and it was where I was headed. And then I was invited to speak at the AARP conference with a brand, and it reignited my passion. I met with followers in the DC area, and it filled me with so much joy and a reminder of why I’m here.

00;02;08;19 – 00;02;32;22
Dr. Mona
I revamped, I refocused, and we started growing. My Instagram gained 160,000 followers in one month, and the biggest thing I’m happy about is that it was parenting content that went viral that brought me those followers. As a pediatrician, we are often thought of as health professionals and although I love that content, the parenting content is what really brings me the most joy.

00;02;32;22 – 00;02;52;22
Dr. Mona
It’s what I love to talk about in my office and to see this community grow. Because of that content was so special. So thank you. Thank you for listening here. Leaving a review, sharing the show. Maybe some of you found me now because of my Instagram. I’m so happy that you’re here. Leaving reviews and sharing episodes make the show grow, so make sure to continue to do that.

00;02;52;24 – 00;03;16;09
Dr. Mona
And thank you for everyone who continues to show my social media channels love. It’s so appreciated and has reignited my flame for PDT for the end of 2024 and into 2025. Now let’s get into today’s episode. Remember, you can now catch our conversations on YouTube as well. And we are doing weekly giveaways. So check out my Instagram handle, Pete’s Doc Talk for today’s Real to win courses for myself and today’s guest.

00;03;16;11 – 00;03;38;21
Dr. Mona
Today’s guests are Mary Flo Riley and Megan Mickelson from Birds and Bees, who are helping parents stop feeling nervous about the talk around sex and instead find empowerment through their guidance and practice. Their focus is on early conversations through natural and matter of fact conversation that are developmentally appropriate. As someone who grew up in a culture where sex was not talked about, this is important information.

00;03;38;24 – 00;03;49;05
Dr. Mona
Conversations around sex are healthy and can mean for more safe decisions. It’s an important conversation, so let’s get to it. Thank you so much for joining me today.

00;03;49;12 – 00;03;50;18
Mary Flo Ridley
Thank you for having us, doctor.

00;03;50;18 – 00;03;52;26
Megan Michelson
Mona, we’re really excited to be here. Yeah, yeah.

00;03;52;26 – 00;04;02;26
Dr. Mona
And I know you all sort of go around the country and in your local area talking about this. So tell us more about yourselves and why this work is so important for you.

00;04;02;28 – 00;04;21;10
Mary Flo Ridley
Well, this work has been important to me for a long time. When I was a young mother and I had a four year old and a one year old, I started getting questions and like you, I grew up in a family where the word sex was never said, there was never any explanation of anything. And I had loving, wonderful parents.

00;04;21;10 – 00;04;43;19
Mary Flo Ridley
But that just wasn’t part of what they were going to explain to me. So I went on a journey to discover could there be a better way than waiting for the 13 year old conversation, waiting for that awkward conversation at that awkward age? The talk can I go ahead and answer their question when they’re asking, mommy, how’s that baby getting out of there?

00;04;43;21 – 00;05;09;17
Mary Flo Ridley
Could I start and and just have some simple, age appropriate conversation? So I did a lot of research and talked to a lot of counselors and pediatricians and got the go ahead that that would be okay, that this would not be, you know, destructive to your child or whatever. And so that’s how this that was the beginning of this journey and what we saw in our own family.

00;05;09;17 – 00;05;35;20
Mary Flo Ridley
And also, as I shared this with other people and schools and churches, that this was getting traction. I people were so surprised that they could do this before the hormones kicked in. Before it was an awkward conversation. They could just slip in conversation about seeds and eggs and body parts and safety and not all at one sitting, but drip, drip, drip into their childhood.

00;05;35;23 – 00;05;57;02
Megan Michelson
And then I was teaching middle school, when I first heard Mary Flow. So after my undergrad, I was a middle school teacher, and I was very, overwhelmed, I guess, by the sexualization of their culture. And these are pre-teens. So I thought, wow, they sure are excited about a lot. Or, you know, it was very overwhelming. And so one day I heard that she was coming to the parent.

00;05;57;02 – 00;06;14;00
Megan Michelson
Ed, you know, parents talk to you, talking to your kids about sex. I thought, I’ve got to go hear this. And funny stories. I actually knew the Ridley family growing up, but I had no idea that Mrs. Ridley did this. And so I was equally intrigued. So I went, I did not have kids of my own yet.

00;06;14;00 – 00;06;35;24
Megan Michelson
And so I went to hear this and kind of through the lens of my preteen students who I adored, and I left that night after she spoke thinking, wow, every parent has to hear that. It was amazing. And I thought this. She could totally this education could totally transform families can transform. Middle school could transform marriages. We just aren’t talking about sex in healthy ways.

00;06;35;24 – 00;06;40;12
Megan Michelson
And her message is such an incredible tool and empowering for parents.

00;06;40;17 – 00;06;50;14
Dr. Mona
I love this origin story, I love this, I love that you. Obviously you were at one of her sessions and then you decided to join on and work with her and do this even more, to get to spread the word. Correct.

00;06;50;17 – 00;07;18;13
Megan Michelson
Yeah. So there was there was many years in between. Oh, great. So I taught middle school and heard and then went on to have two of my own kids, and then we got paired up and decided, hey, let’s do this. And then, so yeah, there is a longer story, but yes, that is exactly what happened. And then now I have three kids of my own, and I am in the middle of all this and putting my money where my mouth is every day, talking to my own kids about this stuff, being like, okay, I just told people on Instagram to say this and now I have to it.

00;07;18;19 – 00;07;42;26
Dr. Mona
So yeah, yeah, I love this because when, you know, we talk about this conversation, right? The the talk like you mentioned, people do either wait for it to happen much later, you know, in the teens or in my situation, it really never gets talked about at all. So a lot of the situation, what I’m seeing in my in my patient population where their families are not having this conversation, they’re getting this from somewhere.

00;07;42;29 – 00;08;01;16
Dr. Mona
So where are they getting this information from? Movies, media, TikTok, which is not always the right place to get it. If you’re not getting it from the right resources, right? Educated people talking about it like you are. So it’s really a huge disservice to the child because they’re getting it from places that are probably not the best resource.

00;08;01;23 – 00;08;22;15
Dr. Mona
And so when you all do your workshops, because I know you do a lot of in-person, events, which I think is phenomenal. And then you also, you know, have some resources that people can get from online. What is what is the feedback and also what are the reservations parents have about these conversations? Are they too are they nervous that their child may not understand what this means?

00;08;22;15 – 00;08;32;11
Dr. Mona
Do they not know the right words to say? What do you think are the barriers for parents to have these conversations with their children? Now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors.

00;08;32;13 – 00;08;56;26
Mary Flo Ridley
Well, there are lots of barriers for sure. Like they’re intimidated to take on this topic. They’re afraid of the questions they might get, but they also we give them sample conversations. I think that is one thing that that the feedback we get was thank you. They may not say it exactly the way we give this, you know, sample like, yeah, just the talking tips.

00;08;56;26 – 00;09;16;08
Mary Flo Ridley
And here’s how this would sound. So how did that baby get in there. This is how you might say it. So they haven’t heard it because either their parents didn’t say it. But where will where will those children go when they need more information? Will they go back to TikTok? Will they find another movie? They need to have a connection with their parents on this topic.

00;09;16;08 – 00;09;28;16
Mary Flo Ridley
They need to see their parents as the living authority. And that’s really why starting so young is the key, because you’re telling them a lot of other things at that age. And this just slides right here.

00;09;28;18 – 00;09;52;13
Megan Michelson
And I think to your question like how do parents feel? I mean, we feel this in live events because we’re it’s so Face-To-Face. And so obviously with the online course, we’re not watching people watch us. But in the live event, I mean, you can just since the energy in the room, people are flooding in and kind of taking their seats and oh, now we’re on the front row and everyone’s nervous and no one wants to contact, you know, and then we get going.

00;09;52;13 – 00;10;05;27
Megan Michelson
And this actually was a lot more fun than it sounds, believe it or not. And by the end of this, hour ish program we share, I mean, people are you can just feel the energy. Everyone’s feeling light, and they’re almost I mean, I hate to say it, but they’re almost excited.

00;10;05;27 – 00;10;06;27
Mary Flo Ridley
They’re high fiving. Yeah.

00;10;06;27 – 00;10;25;07
Megan Michelson
So go home and look at their kids about sex. And it’s like, it’s the most rewarding part of our job is to see the transformation in an hour’s time of, like, complete dread. I think they’re afraid they’re going to mess up. They’re afraid they don’t know how to have these conversations. They’re afraid of putting ideas in their kids heads or afraid of taking away innocence they’re afraid of.

00;10;25;10 – 00;10;45;06
Megan Michelson
There’s so many different fears and discomfort. This topic brings up a lot of people’s, baggage and issues is there’s so much going on here. But for our specific role in this field, it’s really exciting to watch parents leave feeling empowered because, I mean, to your point to with your job, it’s like you are going home with these people.

00;10;45;06 – 00;10;54;05
Megan Michelson
Yeah, the parents have to do the work. And so for us to be able to instill that confidence in parents with words and phrases and,

00;10;54;08 – 00;10;55;00
Mary Flo Ridley
Strategy.

00;10;55;00 – 00;11;05;06
Megan Michelson
Strategies and like, you know, just information, I think it’s really it’s so empowering for the parents and exciting for us to be like, okay, now go home. You can do this. You got this. So it’s exciting.

00;11;05;06 – 00;11;24;28
Dr. Mona
Yeah. That empowerment piece like you mentioned, like they go from there again, the nerves that brought them into that room to that. Oh, I’m what is there to be nervous about now I got this I can handle it. And I love what you mentioned about the, the worry that we’re taking away a child’s, innocence and also that we’re putting ideas into their head because I also agree that we’re not doing that.

00;11;24;28 – 00;11;45;07
Dr. Mona
And I use the example also of when we talk to children about alcohol and drug use. Right. Similar concept that parents are like, well, know if I talk to them about it, they’re more likely to do it. And I’m like, actually, you know, if we don’t talk to them, we’re they’re more likely to do things in an unsafe manner or not understand what they’re doing.

00;11;45;07 – 00;11;58;11
Dr. Mona
And so abstinence education is not what we need to do here. We need to be forthcoming. And you know, you mentioned going downstream and really starting early. So how young can we start these conversations.

00;11;58;13 – 00;11;59;00
Mary Flo Ridley
Are you ready?

00;11;59;05 – 00;12;00;17
Dr. Mona
I’m ready. I love it.

00;12;00;24 – 00;12;21;29
Mary Flo Ridley
We encourage parents to to camp who have preschool to preteen. And as soon as you are using words with your children on the changing table, you can call their body parts their body parts, when they’re potty training, you’re talking about privacy or you’re talking about body parts. You can talk about seeds and eggs when you’re doing snack time.

00;12;22;02 – 00;12;42;08
Mary Flo Ridley
And instead of going the garbage disposal with that core of apples, you open up deep inside of every living thing is part of what it takes to make the next living thing just like it. You’re just bringing up peripheral stories. How did that baby get out of there? Yeah, well, this is an exciting story. Buckle up. This is really fun.

00;12;42;10 – 00;13;08;28
Mary Flo Ridley
And and be ready to tell them. So it’s, it’s important that they know that information. Lack of information doesn’t mean an increase in innocence don’t equate sense with ignorance. And so that’s what we want parents to know, is that actually ignorance is vulnerability in their vulnerable to hearing those messages and assuming that’s the right thing to hear.

00;13;09;01 – 00;13;27;10
Megan Michelson
And I think to Mary Polo’s point, vocabulary is a conversation. It’s you know, we’re not saying, oh, yeah, tell your kids about sex in their two. That is not what we’re saying, but what we’re trying to do overall, birds and bees is get rid of this idea of the talk, you know, quotation marks, and replace it with multiple age appropriate conversations.

00;13;27;10 – 00;13;46;03
Megan Michelson
So at age 2 or 3, what does that look like? Oh, that’s your penis. That’s a private part. Remember nobody else can touch your private parts. These are little conversations we’re having. And that they build. And we want to be frequent and frank with our tone of voice. And we want to be medical. And matter of fact, we’re talking about bodies and body parts, body boundaries.

00;13;46;06 – 00;14;06;15
Megan Michelson
And we’re not making this. We love pediatricians for a billion reasons, personally and professionally. But, we tell parents to use your pediatrician voice. You know, in the pediatric world, you guys have a phrase you use a lot of, well, visits, you know, saying, oh, people, doctor, someone’s gonna be looking at your vagina. I can only do this because your mommy’s in the room, you know, some kind of creation of that phrase.

00;14;06;15 – 00;14;29;14
Megan Michelson
But, that is so helpful for parents to hear because as adults, we, that stem from a very heavy topic of abuse prevention that’s very heavy. But the tone of voice that pediatrician uses in that room is not, you know, we can share things at an age appropriate level and a very black and white way. And it doesn’t only have to happen in the doctor’s office, you know, we can do that in our homes if, like, the neighbors are over playing and.

00;14;29;14 – 00;14;48;08
Megan Michelson
Oh, they’re playing doctor with their clothes off. Oh, sweetheart, remember, we don’t play with our clothes off with our friends. Yeah, private parts are private. Put your clothes back on. Let’s leave the door open. What? We play, like lots of little conversations that just little by little we’re building. And what Mary said about seeds. This concept of seeds creating new life and creating new life.

00;14;48;11 – 00;15;01;08
Megan Michelson
I mean, that’s foundational for all reproduction. And so having these little conversations when your kids are little and asking questions and believing you, that kind of lay this foundation for so many conversations.

00;15;01;10 – 00;15;17;19
Dr. Mona
I love that you take it so early and I’m not I’m not shocked. You know, you said get ready. I was ready, but I expected it to be preschool and above, you know, because their curiosity is through the roof at that age. You know, I have a four year old at the time of this recording, and he’s asking so many questions about everything.

00;15;17;19 – 00;15;36;14
Dr. Mona
You know, he sees a lizard that we live in Florida. He sees he sees a lizard that ticks in our house, and we have conversations about death. We have conversations about life. It’s it’s so important. I love that you’re talking about seeds and creating new life. How do you approach that, that big conversation around where do babies come from?

00;15;36;14 – 00;15;44;25
Dr. Mona
You know, a lot of that stuff that happens with a young child who has their new their new sibling approaching, maybe in mommy’s belly. How do you approach that conversation?

00;15;45;02 – 00;16;06;08
Mary Flo Ridley
Well, first of all, we we really encourage parents to take that baby out of the belly and really be specific that the baby is growing in the uterus because we we love is but we’re taking the babies out of the digestive system and into the reproduction. Yeah. So it’s it’s a kind of being medical and matter of fact about it.

00;16;06;10 – 00;16;37;25
Mary Flo Ridley
Usually they ask about birth before they ask about conception. They’re curious about how that baby gets out before the baby gets in. So you’ve already got some of the anatomy known to the child, but when they do ask you just keep it to the basic biology. And then the first step of the birds and bees strategy is for you to have a message to your children, like in one sentence, what is the main thing you want your children to know about sex if they’re growing up in your family?

00;16;37;27 – 00;17;02;25
Mary Flo Ridley
So you take vocabulary from that, and you take vocabulary from the very basic biology, and you give just a simple kind of mechanical explanation of how the seed, the sperm is deep inside of the daddy, the egg is deep inside of the mommy. When the mommy and the daddy meet and join together in a special way, the seed travels through the penis to the seed.

00;17;02;27 – 00;17;16;08
Mary Flo Ridley
And that’s how the baby get started. But you can also add value to that if you want to add your faith component. If you want to talk about, healthy things regarding that, you know, whatever your other priorities are, you can add vocabulary.

00;17;16;15 – 00;17;36;19
Megan Michelson
And it’s important to remember to these phrases is that’s not the first time or only that’s not the only time you’re going to talk to your kids about this, you know? So whether it sounds like, oh, babies come from a seed from the dad, an egg from the mom, that could be a basic place to start. You’re not having to dive into penises a vagina until years later, you know?

00;17;36;19 – 00;17;54;16
Megan Michelson
But what you’re doing is foundation. Because I think there’s also freedom to know. That’s my first conversation, but that’s not my last. And so we don’t feel this panic of like, well, my four year old want to know where that baby brother came from. I’m just gonna be honest with them and tell them everything. You know? It’s like, okay, you you don’t have to do that.

00;17;54;18 – 00;18;13;21
Megan Michelson
But you can be you can be honest. And that’s where we love the Seed and Egg Foundation, because it does build such a, an age appropriate understanding of like, okay, it takes two parts to make this baby, you know, and again, the this is a story surrounding this characters of season eight is going to change for every family.

00;18;13;28 – 00;18;31;19
Megan Michelson
You know, every family is going to have, a different approach. Some families might later on include words like IVF or surrogacy. You know, there’s going to be words to parts of the stories, which is a cool spin for every family is going to be different, which is great. And so the basics of Season eggs is a great place to start.

00;18;31;19 – 00;18;37;21
Megan Michelson
And then as your child matures, you can add the different characters that make your family, your family.

00;18;37;21 – 00;18;51;24
Mary Flo Ridley
And how that seed, an egg got together. Like, you don’t have to drop the heavy book called sex on the head. Yeah. You know, right at the beginning. Let me just introduce you to some characters. And one is a seed and an egg, and you’re just starting the story with them.

00;18;51;27 – 00;19;13;02
Dr. Mona
Now, let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors. I love that you also include, obviously, the faith based messaging. Right. Really respective of that. I think that’s a lot of the barriers that I see. A lot of the times, you know, I grew up in a culture where it just wasn’t talked about like sex before marriage, all of that stuff, you know, that is very personal to the family.

00;19;13;02 – 00;19;37;23
Dr. Mona
Like what are the values that you are trying to teach. So I love that you bring in that component. And also I really, really love the anatomical naming, right? The uterus, the penis, the vagina, the vulva, all of that. In your opinion? I know, you know, you talk about the seed in the egg conversations early. Why is it so important to you that we are also talking about anatomical names for an autonomy aspect?

00;19;37;23 – 00;19;53;26
Dr. Mona
When we talk about sex, like why, you know, for parents that may not understand the importance of that, you know, you mentioned and alluded to consent, you know, and like, hey, I’m changing your table. No one else can look at your vagina or penis. Only if mom is here. Why is that so important as it relates to sex.

00;19;53;26 – 00;19;57;00
Dr. Mona
And if some listeners might not understand that connection.

00;19;57;02 – 00;20;04;16
Megan Michelson
So obviously those parts are important to having sex. And that might be a whole background story if you’re don’t know that yet.

00;20;04;16 – 00;20;05;08
Dr. Mona
But

00;20;05;10 – 00;20;24;07
Megan Michelson
Assuming you do. So obviously we’re going to use those vocabulary words when we’re explaining conception. So what we don’t want to do to kind of back it up to this idea of we don’t want to have one big bombshell conversation. So in light of that, what we don’t want to do is introduce the term penis in vagina for the first time when we’re then explaining intercourse.

00;20;24;10 – 00;20;39;25
Megan Michelson
That’s a lot of information at once, and we don’t want them to have any sort of shame around these parts. And so what we what we want you to do is back that up and kind of introduce these words, you know, little by little over the years now. So that’s one reason. The main reason is really for their safety.

00;20;39;27 – 00;20;56;03
Megan Michelson
And as a pediatrician obviously you know this, but the number one thing that we as parents can do to protect our kids from sexual abuse is to speak very openly and very matter of factly about these body parts, because what happens is, you know, we use names for everything, but then we kind of, whisper the word.

00;20;56;08 – 00;20;57;00
Dr. Mona
Yes, or.

00;20;57;00 – 00;20;58;00
Megan Michelson
Whisper we.

00;20;58;02 – 00;20;59;06
Mary Flo Ridley
Have. Yeah, we.

00;20;59;08 – 00;21;19;15
Megan Michelson
Have, you know, or that kind of enhances the shame around these parts. And, you know, we’re intending to or not kind of send this message to our kids like, that’s our bad part, or those are secret parts. We don’t talk about those parts. And so God forbid anything happened to those parts, they don’t feel comfortable or don’t even have the vocabulary to to use it to talk to you about that.

00;21;19;15 – 00;21;25;07
Megan Michelson
And so we don’t want to enhance the shame. And then we also have a lot of tendencies to use. Kind of silly Willy when you when.

00;21;25;07 – 00;21;25;27
Mary Flo Ridley
You work.

00;21;25;29 – 00;21;46;28
Megan Michelson
For those parts. And that enhances the silliness that kids, as, you know, as a parent and we all know as kids are silly about their body parts, that is just a fact, especially their private parts. You know, that’s just the way they are. And that’s okay. But we as the adults don’t want to enhance the silliness either. And so we want this to be we want to be very clear with body parts and body boundaries.

00;21;46;28 – 00;22;10;21
Megan Michelson
I think so often, with body parts and good touch force, bad touch abuse situations, there’s so much gray, and there’s kind of silence. And so kids feel, well, I didn’t like that or I don’t know what just happened, but they don’t have any concept of a black and white line was crossed or oh, I know if this happens, I do this.

00;22;10;24 – 00;22;25;17
Megan Michelson
And so what we’re really trying to do is just encourage. And everyone’s a little individual homes. This is something we talk about, you know, with the I have two boys and a girl. So my two boys, I feel like we they provide ample conversations in my home about this, you know, they’re in the bathtub together being silly.

00;22;25;17 – 00;22;42;07
Megan Michelson
Boys, cut it out. You don’t touch his penis. We never touch somebody else’s private parts. And if someone had private parts, you come and tell mom, okay? He’s going to go in the bathtub first. I mean, we are just having these conversations over and over again, and I think the importance of that is to really just establish this, this tone in your home.

00;22;42;07 – 00;22;58;18
Megan Michelson
If this is something we talk about, you know, and this is not a secret thing, I don’t want to be embarrassed to say something to my mom. I can feel comfortable because my dad uses this language. What you’re really trying to do is, protect your kids, ultimately love it. Like, this is not anything. That’s. This is not embarrassing.

00;22;58;20 – 00;23;20;12
Megan Michelson
This is not something that we shy away from in our home or keep secrets. Yeah, yeah, we don’t keep secrets. So really, the the body, the anatomically correct term is for their safety. Number one, first and foremost. And secondly, because you’re going to need those words as these conversations build and you don’t want to be explaining intercourse the first time your child hears you say the word pink and because that’s true.

00;23;20;13 – 00;23;46;20
Dr. Mona
Yeah, it’s a lot a lot of information. And I love that you mentioned the word shame around this conversation. And also, you know, for me, I find it so important and valuable to talk about anatomical parts, early penis, vagina, all of that. Because also what what is appropriate touch. Because even if they end up in a consensual sexual relationship later in life and it doesn’t feel right or something is not right, I want them to know from an early age that I can say no.

00;23;46;20 – 00;24;06;26
Dr. Mona
Like I have the strength here and confidence to say no. Like this isn’t right. I you know, we talk about even if it’s in a marriage or even if it’s in a dating relationship, whatever it is, I want children to have that strength and confidence to know what does or doesn’t feel right to me. Is this something that I want to do when we talk about body autonomy?

00;24;06;26 – 00;24;25;12
Dr. Mona
So I love that we’re giving the children slow confidence in that and planting that seed. Like you mentioned, and also removing the shame around our body parts. And it’s so interesting to me because we tend to create funny, silly words for like the penis and the vagina. But yet we don’t create those words for ears or nose, right?

00;24;25;17 – 00;24;43;27
Dr. Mona
Like it’s always the private parts. Yeah. You’re not you’re not calling your ear. You’re your ear weary, right? But you will call your your European is your your tinkle winkle. Right. Like it’s so interesting to me because again, we’re trying to create levity around an anatomical part that is so like you said, it’s just it’s part of our bodies.

00;24;43;27 – 00;25;01;23
Dr. Mona
And I love this. We practice the same way. And so I really appreciate when, you know, you all are spreading the good word out there from the beginning to really, again, empower parents to say this is part of our life in the bathtub, like you said, you’re talking about it. Hey. Yep. We do not we do not allow other people to see it in the bathtub.

00;25;01;23 – 00;25;10;15
Dr. Mona
It’s perfectly fine. And that is how they learn about. Yeah, you can celebrate your body, all of your body. And I think that’s such a valuable thing that you’re doing for families.

00;25;10;17 – 00;25;19;21
Megan Michelson
I want to bring up the phrase you kind of mentioned, because Mary has some great examples of this. But what we say a lot of birds and bees is no means no. And stop, stop. We’re talking about like, tickling and.

00;25;19;21 – 00;25;39;02
Mary Flo Ridley
Well, yes, when my children were young, my husband was very helpful in trying to get them to be tired to go to bed. So he would throw them on the bed. They’d try to get off, he’d throw them back on. You know, this is a great game, but sometimes. And so one night he was doing that. I was sitting on the floor folding clothes, and he would tickle them.

00;25;39;02 – 00;26;02;21
Mary Flo Ridley
When they got on the bed, he would kind of shape and tickle them. And one of the children said, daddy, stop. And he said, oh, you really love this. And I was like, think what? What did you just teach her? You know that? She said, no. And and it’s true. She would two seconds later say, tickle me again.

00;26;02;21 – 00;26;16;25
Mary Flo Ridley
Like he knew that. But he wasn’t teaching her that. If she says stop, you don’t. People that love you will stop. People that respect you will stop. And so he just he was so ashamed.

00;26;16;28 – 00;26;18;24
Megan Michelson
And he did not know what. Oh no.

00;26;18;28 – 00;26;43;22
Mary Flo Ridley
But it was like, you’re right, I, I didn’t think so. Just changing that little conversation to say, sweetheart, you said stop. So we’re stopping until you say go, you know, but I you are in charge of that. I take no very seriously. And so we, you know, would even physically step away and and they could know the power of their voice in that.

00;26;43;24 – 00;26;54;11
Mary Flo Ridley
And I’ve seen it. I have nine grandchildren and I’ve seen it generationally so that now I see my grandchildren. Actually, they’re talking to siblings to each other. I said.

00;26;54;13 – 00;26;55;04
Megan Michelson
Yeah.

00;26;55;07 – 00;26;58;26
Dr. Mona
Stop, stop. It’s in love that is true.

00;26;58;26 – 00;27;21;05
Megan Michelson
And to your point, it’s like these. What? We’re we’re just building this muscle. Yeah. You know, our young boys and young girls of, like, are boys should have power and they should be able to feel confident using their voice, whether they’re four or whether they’re 14 or 24, you know. And so I think that, like everything, these things build, you know, very few things in life require conversation and that’s it.

00;27;21;08 – 00;27;32;08
Megan Michelson
But for some reason, we have decided that sex and all things sexual should have one conversation at the worst time, and then we never speak of it again. And we just think for it to be there’s a better way.

00;27;32;10 – 00;27;33;08
Dr. Mona
Yeah.

00;27;33;11 – 00;27;54;10
Mary Flo Ridley
Absolutely funny too. One time, the same daughter that was saying that, was able to introduce me at her church when I was talking there, and she said something that I was so dear to me because I didn’t. I’ve never heard her say this before, but she said everything you’re going to hear my mom say tonight. I know, but I don’t know when I learned it.

00;27;54;13 – 00;28;18;28
Mary Flo Ridley
And most people would say they know exactly when they learned about sex. But if you grow up in a family where these are just part of the conversations and what they’re learning about, they can’t even point to a day that this was not known to them on some level, you know? So it’s not that many conversations. Like, we’re probably making it sound like you talk about this every day, but that’s not the case.

00;28;18;28 – 00;28;27;23
Mary Flo Ridley
It’s just that you talk about it appropriately and age appropriately and fake it til you make it. If you don’t feel comfortable, look like you feel comfortable.

00;28;27;26 – 00;28;46;18
Dr. Mona
Yeah, I love the no means no and stop means stop. And I love the tickling example that you all gave, because that is a prime example of what I was saying earlier about the something that is pleasurable, right? Like tickling is nice. It feels good until it doesn’t. And using that with sex and I’m going to be very open about this sex can feel good until it doesn’t.

00;28;46;18 – 00;29;04;08
Dr. Mona
And if someone says stop, we should respect that. And that is people, you know, parents sometimes hear that and they’re like, come on, tickling is not the same as sex. Obviously it’s not. But it’s about the stop that you said if it doesn’t feel good anymore and you listen to them and like you said, they may start tickling again or want that amazing.

00;29;04;08 – 00;29;23;19
Dr. Mona
We do the same thing, same funny story that my husband and it’s like, it’s okay, we’re just roughhousing and playing. I’m like, no, but when he says no, stop! And then again stop, they start over again when they say yes. And then now he says, so our family members, all of that, you know, like the other thing that I always add is the guilt and shame, right?

00;29;23;19 – 00;29;44;07
Dr. Mona
Like about hugs and like, hey, oh, you don’t want to give me a hug? Oh, that made me feel so bad. Oh, you don’t want to, you know, want me to tickle. You are like making them feel guilty for not wanting their physical attention. That is another layer of of autonomy. But I think it’s so important, you know, that we’re starting that early.

00;29;44;09 – 00;30;06;05
Dr. Mona
And then my other question for you all is, you know, we talk about how with your program, you really are starting this very young. Is there a certain age, though, that you’re really recommending more of that talk or not, because you’re starting it from early in terms of a developmentally appropriate age of like, okay, now we’re going to talk about actual sex, what it looks like.

00;30;06;05 – 00;30;10;03
Dr. Mona
All of that is that kind of built in at a certain age in your guys’s curriculum.

00;30;10;05 – 00;30;30;17
Megan Michelson
So we have a thing about age that we talk about a lot. And the long and short of it is that we don’t like to give an age, you know, we can’t if we said, okay, the perfect age is age 11, four months, two days, all these parents listening to this pediatrician podcast would get their phones out, mark that date, set the alarm and just refresh it.

00;30;30;19 – 00;30;51;12
Megan Michelson
But it doesn’t work. Like, because, I mean, you have two kids. I’m sure your youngest is probably doing things as a baby that your oldest never did, you know? And that’s the date. The number two comes home from the hospital. They probably watch a little bit of TV where the first born is like, well, we know that, you know, and that that just goes on and on with their whole life.

00;30;51;12 – 00;31;14;15
Megan Michelson
I’m like the food they eat, the time they go to bed, the number of baths they have each week, the shows they watch, the TV, the music they listen to. All these things just change because our, you know, our families are essentially the age of our oldest child and everybody else keeps up. And so my six year old, my baby is so different as a child in the world that he lives in, is so different than when my oldest was six.

00;31;14;18 – 00;31;30;08
Megan Michelson
And what our family looked like then and what we did then. And I look at these two, my bookends and I’m kind of like, whoa, y’all are so different. And so the conversations that I’m having with him are going to be vastly different at different ages. And like my oldest. So all that being said is we don’t have a hard past age.

00;31;30;11 – 00;31;47;01
Megan Michelson
But I think sometimes if you’re listening as a parent and you’re thinking like you’re behind or maybe you, you know, you’re kind of too late, like, oh, well, shoot, we’re going to middle school next year. Or, you know, we’re 12, but I haven’t heard anything. So you’re feeling kind of panicked like that. You know, obviously we believe that sooner is better than later.

00;31;47;03 – 00;32;03;18
Megan Michelson
But later is better than never. Yes. And so we just encourage you don’t don’t, you know, pause this podcast and go pick up your kid from school and tell them everything. Don’t do that. You know, kind of give you some space and say, okay, you might it might be more intentional. It might be more forward conversations than that.

00;32;03;18 – 00;32;24;15
Megan Michelson
See the the Apple, you know, maybe with an older child, like, you know what? I feel like he needs to understand what sex is and know the term sex before we go to junior high. And that’s going to be in the fall. Okay. So over the next six months, I’m going to kind of walk through some of these steps with a bit more intention and start using these body part words, or maybe just own up and say, you know what, honey, I haven’t talked to you about some of these topics as much as I should have.

00;32;24;17 – 00;32;43;04
Megan Michelson
And so on Tuesday nights, we’re going to walk around the block, and I’m going to kind of tell you a few things. You don’t have to look at me. We can walk side by side. But it’s really important that you hear from me before you go off in middle school or whatever. So I would say there’s not necessarily a hard, fast age, but, you know, your child and their environment better than anybody else.

00;32;43;07 – 00;33;01;06
Megan Michelson
So if you feel like, you know, before summer camp, I want them to know this word or before, like we said, junior high. You have to then be mindful. But how can I back that up so we don’t have to have one big talk? And then a phrase we really like to use with kids, if you’re feeling behind or with kids who aren’t asking questions, is have you ever wondered.

00;33;01;12 – 00;33;22;08
Megan Michelson
Yeah. And that’s a great way some of these conversations. And so for an older child, you know, or a preteen, it might be more forward to saying, have you ever wondered what the word sex mean? You know, and you can do that. But again, the hope is that we build these conversations over time. And so it’s not this one big bombshell boom.

00;33;22;14 – 00;33;40;18
Megan Michelson
Because even if you have a bombshell conversation, you should be following it up afterwards. Absolutely. Because the reality is, my kids are my oldest is 11, almost 11, and she knows the basics of everything. But I remember before it, like we had one conversation I’ll never forget, like, in my brain. Like I know where we were.

00;33;40;19 – 00;34;02;25
Megan Michelson
I was driving the question that was asked, the words I said, I’m sweating, you know, all the like, like, this is big for me personally and professionally moment. Okay. And then, like, I forgot what it was, like 6 or 8 months later, she kind of asked the same question again, and I was like, well, don’t you remember, that conversation we had that big yeah, that day, you know, and she would remember.

00;34;02;28 – 00;34;15;04
Megan Michelson
And so I guess another like kind of perk of having these conversations and our kids are young is you get practice. Yeah. You know, and your kids aren’t like that to you. They’re going to say, oh yeah, my mom talk to you about that. You said it again or I don’t remember. It’s not as.

00;34;15;04 – 00;34;33;07
Mary Flo Ridley
Weighty and you don’t have to do it perfect. It’s, you have the pressure to talk. I’ve got to do this perfectly. And I think that’s a barrier for parents. Also, they don’t feel equipped to do it perfectly. This. You are off the hook. Because you can do it really poorly for a seven year old. And two days later you.

00;34;33;07 – 00;34;34;09
Dr. Mona
Can tell these. Yeah. Yeah.

00;34;34;09 – 00;34;57;26
Mary Flo Ridley
We like the phrase I’ll circle back. Like as a parent, if you leave that conversation and think I left off some of the most important stuff, you know, I just didn’t do it well or that was a very incomplete answer, or I didn’t like my tone or I seemed scared. You can say, you know what? You asked me a great question the other day, and I’ve been thinking about it, and I’d like to try another answer there.

00;34;58;02 – 00;35;21;07
Mary Flo Ridley
They’re not going to say sorry, you know, but they’ll. Yeah. Happy to hear it again. And but a lot of you will say well they’ve never asked. So I really want to encourage that phrase. Have you children aren’t in charge of this topic like the parents have to be. And so if you think you know, my child is in there, anything about periods?

00;35;21;09 – 00;35;40;01
Mary Flo Ridley
When it will be a good time for me to bring it up, look for an opportunity to talk about periods or, my child’s never asked exactly how did that baby get in there? So maybe you you take a meal to a friend who’s had a baby, and you take that child with you on the way home, you say, wow, can you believe that baby’s here?

00;35;40;01 – 00;35;43;23
Mary Flo Ridley
Nine months inside, the mummy have you ever wondered how that baby got in their.

00;35;43;25 – 00;35;44;08
Megan Michelson
House.

00;35;44;10 – 00;36;02;15
Mary Flo Ridley
Or out? You know what? Have you not asked that? I can say that I can take the lead on and giving them permission. Sometimes they really are curious. They just haven’t verbalized it to you. So, we can’t just leave it up to them and say, well, you never asked, you know, or that’s not going to work.

00;36;02;17 – 00;36;04;12
Megan Michelson
That’s right. We want to be proactive. Yeah.

00;36;04;12 – 00;36;29;06
Dr. Mona
And I love your sooner than sooner than later and later better than ever. That is such a great motto with everything regarding parenting. Right. And you said it perfectly that so many times not even just with conversations around sex, but in so many different things, right? Parents, I feel like in our generation especially, are so focused on saying the right thing or the right script that they end up not being authentic to their own voice, or they end up feeling like, well, now I just like you said, I messed it up and it’s over.

00;36;29;06 – 00;36;47;03
Dr. Mona
No, your child’s in your house. Like you have many opportunities, like you said, to repair and to revisit. And I also think, you know, I speak a lot about parenting on my show and on my resources. By doing that, you’re also showing that you’re also evolving and learning with them. And it’s such a good thing for a child to see that, you know what?

00;36;47;05 – 00;37;09;19
Dr. Mona
My mom or dad or caregiver said something and learned more and wanted to revisit a conversation. I always have that trusted individual with me to grow with me in this journey, whether it’s about sex, whether it’s about some other world event that you know nothing about, that you’re trying to educate yourself on. I think it creates a culture of children who are curious, but also know that they have security with their caregiver.

00;37;09;19 – 00;37;31;15
Dr. Mona
So I love that. And, you know, you all have provided so many pearls. I love to chatting with you. Love the work that you do, because it’s going to make my job easier as a pediatrician because I can. I tell you, when I hit the jackpot, I’m in a triangle sitting with me, a teenager and a parent who they’re open about everything.

00;37;31;15 – 00;37;54;05
Dr. Mona
We are talking about sex. We are talking about alcohol use. We’re talking about drug use. It’s not oh, I you know, I, I’m doing this behind my mom’s back or, you know, I’m doing this behind my dad’s back. No, there is equal conversation about the safety, the risk protection. All of that is happening. And I feel like it’s a dream situation for me as a clinician versus having to do this.

00;37;54;05 – 00;38;16;17
Dr. Mona
Okay. Now I got to talk privately and now this. It’s my dream that I feel like every, every parent should feel comfortable talking to their kids about this issue. And also, every child should feel that they’re safe talking to their parent about these issues. And I think that work that you’re doing is right on, like you are helping a huge new generation of parents realize the power in this for our children.

00;38;16;17 – 00;38;17;15
Dr. Mona
So thank you.

00;38;17;17 – 00;38;18;09
Megan Michelson
Oh, you’re so welcome.

00;38;18;09 – 00;38;19;18
Mary Flo Ridley
So very encouraging, I.

00;38;19;18 – 00;38;21;09
Megan Michelson
Know thank you I yeah.

00;38;21;09 – 00;38;39;10
Dr. Mona
I think I’m you know, I know I when I started following you recently, when I reached out to have you all join the show, I, you know, the beauty about social media is that you don’t really realize accounts until you do. And then you’re like, well, why wasn’t I following them? And I had, you know, I saw that you were attending these workshops in, like, different places, like in person.

00;38;39;10 – 00;38;56;23
Dr. Mona
And I was like looking at the big room of people attending your events. And I was like, amazing. This is so powerful. And again, I really think that this work needs to be in so many different places, which is why I wanted you on my show. What would be your final message for everyone listening today?

00;38;56;26 – 00;39;04;08
Megan Michelson
I would just say and encourage encouraging, like, you can do this, you know, so like in your kids need you and you can do this.

00;39;04;10 – 00;39;26;24
Mary Flo Ridley
And also that you don’t really need to have a lot of other, affirmation of this. You know, you don’t have to have your all your friends doing it together. You don’t have to have the school’s permission. You have to like you can be this, this person in their life and and and start with really small steps and give yourself some grace.

00;39;26;24 – 00;39;48;15
Mary Flo Ridley
You’re going to mess up. There’s not one parent who doesn’t who does this program. Right. So we don’t we’re not looking for perfect parenting but purposeful parenting. And like you said, when you do circle back, you’re teaching your children. So if I have a follow up question, I can go back to you. Yeah. So you’re you’re kind of showing them that this is a conversation, not a talk.

00;39;48;17 – 00;40;04;00
Mary Flo Ridley
And that’s what we really want parents to know. Also, you’re so sweet to talk about our live events, but in a minute Megan will tell you are really comprehensive. Resource is something you can just watch in your home and it’s everything you would need at a live event. We can only be.

00;40;04;06 – 00;40;04;22
Dr. Mona
Yes.

00;40;04;28 – 00;40;05;23
Megan Michelson
We can only travel.

00;40;05;23 – 00;40;16;12
Dr. Mona
So tell us more about where people can go to get more information, including all of your resources. Obviously I know you do live events, but again, the online courses as well. Where can people go to stay connected?

00;40;16;14 – 00;40;17;16
Megan Michelson
But we do love live event.

00;40;17;16 – 00;40;18;21
Dr. Mona
I mean oh we do.

00;40;18;23 – 00;40;18;29
Megan Michelson
I.

00;40;19;02 – 00;40;32;29
Dr. Mona
I love them too, which is why I’m like, I watched yours and I’m like, yes, even though I may not be talking about the same stuff, I’m like, oh, I think I feel excited for you and your group when I get to see your live events, because I love them too. They’re energizing, like you said, they’re so energizing.

00;40;32;29 – 00;40;34;21
Dr. Mona
But yeah, tell us where people can go to stay.

00;40;34;21 – 00;40;54;05
Megan Michelson
Connected to live. Events are awesome. So if we’re not coming to a city near you, our online course is the most comprehensive resource we have. Like Mary Flow said, and essentially what we did, really after Covid, you know, when live events kind of stopped, we pivoted. We have this online course that is essentially everything we share in a live event.

00;40;54;08 – 00;40;57;00
Megan Michelson
You can watch from the comfort of your own home,

00;40;57;02 – 00;40;57;22
Mary Flo Ridley
With your friends.

00;40;57;22 – 00;41;16;16
Megan Michelson
With your friends, with your husband. You know, with your children. Yeah. Not with your children. Yeah. Like with second grade moms. Have the neighborhood friends over, with a glass of wine that helps you feel better. But, you know, the the our hope is that the online course can meet you where you are and get, get. We can come essentially to your home, and you can watch it all at once.

00;41;16;16 – 00;41;32;08
Megan Michelson
A lot of people just will sit down and watch it. It takes just like a little over an hour. Some people like to watch it and push play and watch like little sessions at a time. But really, our hope is that, that has been very accessible to people. We have parents all over the world watching it, which is really exciting.

00;41;32;10 – 00;41;45;00
Megan Michelson
Because this is kind of a universal play, but we feel we, excited and grateful that we feel like we have a universal solution. And so the online course is out there. I will send you a code if we look.

00;41;45;00 – 00;41;47;00
Mary Flo Ridley
For it comes with a discussion guide.

00;41;47;00 – 00;41;59;15
Megan Michelson
It has a discussion guide which is really complements everything you’ve heard. To kind of help facilitate discussion questions, we’ll send you a code so you can get them a discount code. And then if you want lots of talking tips and just a day to day stuff, you can follow us on Instagram.

00;41;59;15 – 00;42;01;08
Mary Flo Ridley
Oh, do follow us on. Yes.

00;42;01;10 – 00;42;03;27
Dr. Mona
Birds and bees. Correct the Instagram.

00;42;03;27 – 00;42;05;11
Megan Michelson
Handle. Yeah I think it’s bird under.

00;42;05;14 – 00;42;06;06
Dr. Mona
And I will I’m.

00;42;06;06 – 00;42;07;00
Megan Michelson
Going to in this time.

00;42;07;01 – 00;42;27;28
Dr. Mona
Going to. Yes I’m going to yes birds underscore bees. I’m going to be attaching that Instagram handle as well as their website and resources to my show notes and all the code. Thank you all so much. And again, thank you for taking the time to really spread this, information. Like I said, I love what you mentioned. This is a conversation and not a talk because it’s an ongoing thing that we’re going to have with our children.

00;42;28;02 – 00;42;30;04
Dr. Mona
Thank you so much for joining me. This was incredible.

00;42;30;11 – 00;42;31;01
Mary Flo Ridley
Thank you doctor.

00;42;31;04 – 00;42;36;16
Megan Michelson
I know thank you so much for using your platform to invite us. It’s a great opportunity. So thank you. Thank you.

00;42;36;19 – 00;42;57;06
Dr. Mona
Body autonomy and conversations around sex are so important to have without stigmatizing the process. Mary, Flo and Megan also provide a faith based discussion, and although we don’t share the same religious philosophies, these conversations can transcend religion. If you love this conversation, make sure to leave a review shared on social media and comment on our reel that debuted on the same day as this episode.

00;42;57;08 – 00;43;13;17
Dr. Mona
And make sure to check out The Real for giveaway! For a chance to win a birds and the bees course, as well as a pizza talk talk horse of your choosing. Thank you for joining me and I cannot wait to chat with you all next week, where we’ll be talking about navigating hard transitions in life. Something I think we all can relate to.

00;43;13;23 – 00;43;15;18
Dr. Mona
Catch you all next week. Stay well.