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A podcast for parents regarding the health and wellness of their children.
Is America REALLY less healthy than it used to be? Or is that just a myth?
Lately, the Make America Healthy Again (MAHA) movement has been romanticizing the past—but was it really a “healthier” time? 🤔 Higher infant mortality, shorter life expectancy, and limited medical advancements suggest otherwise.
Today, I’m joined by Nini Munoz, Science & Risk Communicator, and Dr. Jessica Knurick, Dietitian & Nutrition Scientist, to break down:
It’s time to stop falling for misguided nostalgia and start focusing on evidence-based solutions that actually improve public health. Tune in now!
To connect with Jessica Knurick follow her on Instagram @drjessicaknurick and check out all her resources at https://linktr.ee/drjessicaknurick
To connect with Nini Munoz follow her on Instagram @niniandthebrain and join her on Substack: https://techingitapart.substack.com/
00:00 — Misleading Comparisons: Japan, Fluoride, and Health Outcomes
00:00:52 — Welcome to the Show: What MAHA Gets Wrong
00:01:39 — Fear-Based Distractions vs. Real Public Health Solutions
00:02:53 — Meet the Experts: Dr. Jessica and Nini Munoz
00:03:23 — Are Americans Less Healthy Now? Breaking Down the Data
00:07:01 — Why Living Longer Means Facing Chronic Disease
00:09:51 — Screening, Diagnostics, and Better Detection—Not a Health Decline
00:11:13 — The Missing Conversation: America’s Broken Food Environment
00:14:15 — Red Dye 40 & Skittles: Why This Isn’t Solving Chronic Disease
00:17:39 — Targeted Marketing & Food Access: A System Built Against Low-Income Families
00:22:00 — Poverty, Policy, and Public Health Failures
00:27:01 — Lessons From Colombia: How Classism and Privatization Worsen Health Outcomes
00:31:31 — Vaccines, Autism, and Recycling Disproven Theories
00:37:08 — Why Some Pediatricians Push Alternative Schedules
00:39:10 — Predatory Wellness: The Business of Fear and False Solutions
00:43:13 — The Wellness Industry Formula: Scare, Distract, Sell
00:46:30 — When Wellness Fails: Who Do We Turn To?
00:49:10 — Healthcare Reform & Public Trust: Fixing the Root Problems
00:51:12 — Final Thoughts: Real Solutions for a Healthier America
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00;00;00;00 – 00;00;20;07
Dr. Jessica Knurick
There was a post that, Kelly Means, who’s one of the people in Maha movement. He compared Japan and their life expectancy and their health outcomes. I’m talking about fluoridated water and how they don’t fluoride date their water. And so as a rationale for why they have better health outcomes and why their life expectancy is higher. Never mind that they have mandatory fluoridation in their schools.
00;00;20;07 – 00;00;35;19
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And all students have to get that at school. And never mind that they have universal health care and never mind that they have, you know, their nutrition, looks a lot different than our nutrition and their their food environment is not set up for corporations to make profits. And so it’s not 70 per.
00;00;35;19 – 00;00;36;00
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Cent ultra.
00;00;36;00 – 00;00;52;01
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Processed foods like ours is, you know, there’s just so many things and aspects that go into health. And so I like to try to help people to understand that, like those are, you know, those are used to kind of like get people outraged at certain topics. But we have to look at, health holistically.
00;00;52;05 – 00;01;14;18
Dr. Mona
Welcome to the show. It’s me, Doctor Mona, your trusted pediatrician, confidante and mom friend here to support you through every twist and turn of parenting. And you’re listening to the PedsDocTalk podcast, where I host conversations that empower your parenting journey. Whether this is your first episode or you’re a long time listener of five years, I promise you’ll get plenty of insights.
00;01;14;25 – 00;01;39;08
Dr. Mona
Don’t forget to subscribe, download, and check out more episodes so you never miss a beat! Today we are diving deep into a movement that’s been making waves and ruffling the feathers of science experts everywhere the Make America Healthy Again movement or Maha or Maha maha. Let’s call Maha at first glance, Make America Healthy Again. Sounds like something we should all get behind.
00;01;39;16 – 00;02;03;00
Dr. Mona
After all, who doesn’t want a healthier America? But here’s where it falls apart instead of addressing the real drivers of health like public health policy, health care access, and food systems, Maher fixates on fear based messaging about fluoride seed oils and dyes and whatever else they will come up with, encouraging their followers to look here, look here, look here.
00;02;03;03 – 00;02;30;07
Dr. Mona
While other important policies or programs get slashed or cut that could actually help health in America. And that’s frustrating because while social media influencers argue over ingredients policies that impact especially lower income communities, the most continue to be ignored. This episode is going to be mind blowing, because we’re not just calling out the flaws in Maher’s messaging. We’re bringing data, public health realities, and real solutions to the table.
00;02;30;08 – 00;02;53;03
Dr. Mona
Because I don’t believe in just complaining. We actually have to have solutions. Joining me today are two powerhouse experts to help separate fact from fiction and talk about what it actually takes to improve America’s health. Doctor Jessica, a PhD in nutrition science and a registered dietitian here to unpack the real conversations we should be having about food nutrition policy and public health.
00;02;53;06 – 00;03;23;02
Dr. Mona
And Nini Munoz, a data scientist specializing in health statistics. Bringing the receipts on why nostalgia. Views of the good ol days don’t hold up and what the numbers actually show about chronic disease and life expectancy. With them and myself, we tackle health from all angles, including vaccine, education, public health and the flaws of the health care system. Together, we’re cutting through the noise, exposing the gaps in the modern narrative and having an eye opening conversation on how we can actually make America genuinely healthier.
00;03;23;04 – 00;03;33;10
Dr. Mona
Get ready, because this episode is going to challenge what you think you know about health in America. Let’s get to it.
00;03;33;13 – 00;03;36;11
Dr. Mona
And thank you, both of both of you, for joining me today.
00;03;36;13 – 00;03;39;29
Nini Munoz
Good morning, California time. Yes, I just.
00;03;40;01 – 00;03;41;04
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Hi. Thanks for having me.
00;03;41;11 – 00;03;42;21
Nini Munoz
Yeah, thanks for having us.
00;03;42;23 – 00;03;59;03
Dr. Mona
Yeah. I’m really appreciative that we could do this, because when I thought about this episode, I was going to do it solo, but I was like, you know what? I am not the expert at everything. And that’s something that we want to get across here, right? That all of us that make these decisions in public health and health have our niches, have our, expertise.
00;03;59;05 – 00;04;22;02
Dr. Mona
And the goal of this conversation is to bring strengths from three different areas and have this very supportive and pro-science and, you know, understanding the limitations of science and also just understanding the progress we’ve made so we can really understand and the listeners can understand why we have concerns about the Make America Healthy Again movement. So, really glad that you all are b are here today.
00;04;22;08 – 00;04;32;18
Dr. Mona
And I’m going to ask Nini. Nini, the first question, you know, the Make America Healthy movement. I think it’s Maha. Am I pronouncing it right or Maha? What is? I’m just going to say Martha.
00;04;32;19 – 00;04;34;04
Nini Munoz
I say, May Maha.
00;04;34;05 – 00;04;52;07
Dr. Mona
Okay, so I’m going to call it Maha. So the Maha movement, a lot of it is endorsed by many famous figures like Robert Kennedy Jr who’s now the secretary, the Health and Human Health and Human Services, secretary. And they suggest that we want to return to a healthier time so that America is the least healthy we’ve been.
00;04;52;07 – 00;05;01;22
Dr. Mona
And we want to get back to healthier times that we used to have now. From a data perspective, how do current public health metrics compare to those golden eras they reference?
00;05;01;24 – 00;05;36;09
Nini Munoz
Okay, so from like the the data driven public health perspective, the reality is a lot more nuanced, right? So while certain health issues have increased and I’ll let just talk more about those, like overall public health metrics, like they have significantly improved right over the decades. And rather than thinking that the U.S. has had like an outright decline in health, what we really have seen for the most part is like but like other industrialized nations, Western nations, has been a shift in the burden of disease.
00;05;36;09 – 00;06;10;00
Nini Munoz
Right. And I think it’s fair to then discuss how did that come about? Right. From like the public health implementation, policies like sanitation and, you know, chlorinated water and of course, vaccines and modern medicine. Right. So back then, the leading causes of death were infectious disease. Right. We could take a look at the 1900s, and we see that about 600 deaths per 100,000 relative to the last data that I have is from 2023, which was, I think, about 10.9 for pneumonia and influenza per 100,000.
00;06;10;00 – 00;06;37;21
Nini Munoz
It didn’t even make that, you know, the top ten leading causes of death. So we really have seen a huge shift, in deaths from infectious disease. We and to that end, we also see huge changes in infant mortality. We see that in the 1900s, 1 in 6 infants would die before their first birthday, with that number coming down to around 30 in the 1950s and 60s and now down to 5.4, which is still greater than other OECD countries.
00;06;37;25 – 00;07;01;04
Nini Munoz
But we’re still talking about, you know, up huge, you know, decline in the number of infant, you know, infant deaths, every year. And then when we take a look at life expectancy again, we see the same patterns. We see us going up, you know, from roughly 47, right? Years of age is like life average, like the life expectancy, back in the 1900s till today.
00;07;01;08 – 00;07;21;08
Nini Munoz
Right, roughly 77. And we did get that hit from the pandemic. We saw that decline. And I think we could take we could take a look at that. Right. You know, and we can also take a look at how many people were 65 and over back in the 1900s, about 4%. Right. That number is four fold higher today.
00;07;21;10 – 00;07;44;03
Nini Munoz
And as you can imagine, as people age, they get, you know, chronic illness now. And we can take a look at that. And we can also acknowledge at the same time that the improvements have not been uniform across all populations. We very much have like disparities built into those numbers. Right. And, you know, we can talk a little bit more about, what those are, you know, later.
00;07;44;03 – 00;07;55;23
Nini Munoz
But but it is not uniform. And so of course, as the, the, the burden of disease has shifted. Right. We’re no longer dying before puberty. We thank goodness.
00;07;55;23 – 00;07;59;09
Dr. Mona
For 47, which is like eight years for me. So that’s I’m happy about that.
00;07;59;09 – 00;08;16;00
Nini Munoz
News like so of course now we’re going to get back pain, right? Yeah. I remember getting my back pain and my 30s. I was going to the gym, you know, doing like one of those like dumbbell tricks. And I was like, oh my god. And I had back pain for like six months. So of course now we see a shift, right?
00;08;16;00 – 00;08;43;09
Nini Munoz
And we see, more chronic disease. And we have seen an increase. Right. And the prevalence of like obesity. Right. You know, defined as the BMI above 30, right? In from like the 1960s to about that from 13%, more recently, which is 43%. Same can be said for diabetes. Going from, you know, the 1960s up a little bit under 1%, to now roughly 11.3%.
00;08;43;12 – 00;09;10;04
Nini Munoz
And we see the same, you know, with, you know, cancers and heart disease, even though if you take a look at the data a little bit more granularly, especially for heart disease and cancer, you do see a decline. So we we have made progress in those. And the one last thing I want to add is that when we see increases in prevalence, we also have to acknowledge how that diagnostic criteria have changed.
00;09;10;04 – 00;09;32;11
Nini Munoz
Right. Because a lot of people view an increase in prevalence as like, oh my goodness, things are getting worse when a lot of that is like the recommendations for screenings have changed or the fact, you know, like when we introduce like the EKG, of course we’re going to pick up a lot more heart disease. Yeah. And that was a huge part of that trend where you saw heart disease peak in 1968 or 1969.
00;09;32;11 – 00;09;51;11
Nini Munoz
Right. We had like 379 per 100 per 100,000, you know that. And now that number is down to like one 160 roughly. So I think all of those things have to be considered. And it’s a very nuanced picture when we talk about, you know, health outcomes. Right.
00;09;51;13 – 00;10;11;17
Dr. Mona
Now, let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show. And I think, you know, your your point is valid about the detecting of diseases earlier, right? EKGs, mammograms, you know, colon cancer screening, all of that is a result of science and obviously public health initiatives, vaccination, all of that.
00;10;11;17 – 00;10;36;04
Dr. Mona
And I think my biggest concern with the narrative around the movement and around the, what what is being said is that it’s like a conspiracy, right? That, oh, why are we having more autism? Right? Using that as the prime example, I know, you know, we’re talking about that as a developmental thing. But it is true from what I see from now 13 years being in training and practicing, that we have gotten really good at screening, like we have not screened a lot of children.
00;10;36;04 – 00;10;52;26
Dr. Mona
Like I think back 12 years ago when I was in residency, I think about the kids and I’m like, that kid probably had autism and we didn’t have the good screening tools. We didn’t know. And now that that kid is probably seven and never got the diagnoses that he could have had, and so that is not a bad thing.
00;10;52;26 – 00;11;13;26
Dr. Mona
This is all good stuff. And I love what you said about, you know, their romanticizing a past where fewer people live long enough to even get the chronic diseases right, like the back pain, the, you know, maybe cancer risks later at 6070. Yeah. If they were dying at 47, we didn’t know what they were getting. So I love that point because that really drives home that we are living longer.
00;11;13;27 – 00;11;32;04
Dr. Mona
There’s no doubt about that. We don’t have I think they’ve thrown out numbers that we have lower life expectancy rates than other countries. And that may be true of like the Japanese culture. I know, you know, I watched this documentary How Japanese Live longer, but they also have other things in their public health. You know, they have a lot of outdoor activity availability.
00;11;32;04 – 00;11;55;16
Dr. Mona
Their food is different. Like there’s a whole multifactorial reason for health, which I know we all agree and I know just can get into this more with the whole nutrition aspect is that we are lacking that whole conversation here. And I love when just we can even say to you, like what we’re missing in that conversation in America, you know, they talk so much about, you know, let’s get rid of these things or seed oils or artificial dyes.
00;11;55;16 – 00;12;06;02
Dr. Mona
But what are we missing in the nutrition, aspect of what we can do to actually make America healthy? Again, that is not being done maybe by the current administration or by the MAGA movement.
00;12;06;06 – 00;12;29;16
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Yeah. I mean, there’s just so many things, right? I saw there was a post that, Carly Means, who’s one of the people in my movement. He compared, Japan and their life expectancy and their health outcomes, talking about fluoridated water and how they don’t fluoride date their water. And so as a rationale for why they have better health outcomes and why their life expectancy is higher, never mind that they have mandatory fluoridation in their schools.
00;12;29;16 – 00;12;50;10
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And all students have to get that at school. And never mind that they have universal health care and never mind that they have, you know, their nutrition, looks a lot different than our nutrition and their their food environment is not set up for corporations to make profits. And so it’s not 70% ultra processed foods like ours. It’s, you know, there’s just so many things and aspects that go into health.
00;12;50;10 – 00;13;13;01
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And so I like to try to help people to understand that, like those are, you know, those are used to kind of like get people outraged at certain topics. But we have to look at, health holistically and public health holistically. And I love what Nina was talking about in terms of talking about chronic disease. I do think that it’s obviously a very nuanced issue, and you have to bring in the you have to I mean, obviously, we’re living longer.
00;13;13;01 – 00;13;27;11
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Obviously we have less infectious diseases. And so by nature of that, just alone, no matter if nothing changed in our environment, we would have more chronic disease, because chronic disease is a function of living longer. Right. And so that’s you have to die from something. Right. And so I think that’s.
00;13;27;11 – 00;13;31;22
Nini Munoz
Why we say that’s what we that’s what my husband tells me. Honey, you’re going to die. Okay. Yes.
00;13;31;22 – 00;13;33;17
Dr. Jessica Knurick
I mean, it’s not does it sound glamorous for the.
00;13;33;22 – 00;13;36;03
Dr. Mona
To prolong it but. Yes. Exactly. Right. Yeah.
00;13;36;03 – 00;13;56;18
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Well I’m on to my next point. So. Yeah. But having said that, we can there are still a lot of lifestyle factors that can be addressed in our country that can help to either prevent or at least delay chronic disease in the chronic disease that we see right now. Because what we’re seeing is a lot of people living with chronic disease for a long time, and longer than they maybe need to be living with chronic disease.
00;13;56;22 – 00;14;15;13
Dr. Jessica Knurick
If we were able to kind of, work on some of these environmental factors, like our food environment, like our built environment, which is like our roads and cities and, and we can talk about all of those different aspects of policy that could actually improve chronic disease versus maybe just focusing on single ingredients, which is which is a lot of the focus right now.
00;14;15;13 – 00;14;32;11
Dr. Mona
And so I think one of the narratives that I’m hearing, and I know you all got this too, if you have been speaking out against these issues or against, you know, some of these high profile people spreading this misinformation or this fear mongering is Doctor Mona just Nini, why wouldn’t we want this stuff? You know, why don’t you?
00;14;32;11 – 00;14;45;27
Dr. Mona
Why do you not want red dyes out of food? Why don’t you want seed oil out of food? What would be your answer? And maybe I’ll ask just first because I’m talking about more food related. Responses. What would be your answer? How have you pushed those conversations?
00;14;46;03 – 00;15;04;28
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Yeah. So it’s not that I don’t want red dye out of food. Yes. It’s that I want honest conversations about our food additives. And so if we want to take an approach of having a more precautionary approach to our food additives like they do in Europe, even though the EU has deemed these many of these food additives safe, they still allow all of the food dyes that we, that we talk about often.
00;15;05;01 – 00;15;26;19
Dr. Jessica Knurick
I don’t think people realize that they think they’re banned in Europe and they’re not they’re allowed in Europe. They’re just not used as frequently in their food supply. But if we want to take a more precautionary approach, let’s talk about doing that and let’s talk about, at the FDA level, doing that, because right now we take a little bit of a different approach and we look at risk, which I would argue is a more evidence based way to actually approach food additives.
00;15;26;25 – 00;15;45;00
Dr. Jessica Knurick
But I’m not opposed to taking a precautionary approach. Right. Which is basically risk is the best way to explain it is, you know, in the way that I always explained it in my, research methods classes. There’s a shark in the water, right? That’s a hazard if there’s a shark in the water. And so, they in Europe, they often take a hazard based approach.
00;15;45;00 – 00;15;59;27
Dr. Jessica Knurick
So if there’s a shark in the water, they’re a little bit more precautionary. What a risk is, is it introduces a person next to the shark. So there’s a person swimming next to the shark in the water. And that introduces risk. Right. So that person is now at risk. And so that’s what we consider when we look at these food additives.
00;15;59;27 – 00;16;22;24
Dr. Jessica Knurick
So is it the amounts that we’re exposed to. Is this particular ingredient harmful. Has it ever shown harm in humans. And if the answer is no we generally allow those additives. But but again, if we want to change that to being more precautionary, let’s have an honest conversation about it. Instead of just lying and saying, these food additives are banned in Europe, America is poisoning us, which is just not true.
00;16;22;24 – 00;16;49;05
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Right? And so so that’s what I would say. First, is is let’s have an honest conversation about it. And second, I always like to bring it back to how it’s a major distraction from things that can actually help improve public health. So if I were to make a list, just randomly of 1 to 10 things that could help improve chronic disease in this country and improve our food environments in this country, banning, you know, artificial dyes is going to be at the very bottom of that list, right?
00;16;49;05 – 00;17;06;01
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And so if we put all of our effort into something that’s going to make very little impact on public health, because let’s think about what these guys are in, right? I’m using dyes. There’s a couple of other like preservatives that they talk about, but they’re in ultra processed, generally high sugar, nutrient devoid foods that we would like to see people consuming less of.
00;17;06;01 – 00;17;30;08
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Right. If you swap out, you know, red dye 40 and Skittles and you add in carmine or, you know, beet juice, it’s still Skittles. It’s still a high sugar, nutrient devoid food that we should be consuming less of. And so if we put all of our focus into those ingredient swaps, and we’re not focused on one through 9 or 1 through nine, 10.999, then we’re, we’re we’re missing the forest for the trees.
00;17;30;13 – 00;17;39;18
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Right. And, and that can be really problematic because there’s only so much political will in Washington to make changes for public health. And so, so I like to bring people back to that. I mean.
00;17;39;19 – 00;17;57;15
Dr. Mona
It was already so poorly funded. And we think about, you know, public health initiatives, initiatives for lower income families, all of these things. We’re already kind of scraping by. You know, we saw this in the pandemic, too. And then now you have administration and voices from the top saying, let’s question things that really don’t need to be questions.
00;17;57;15 – 00;18;11;05
Dr. Mona
I mean, am I my contribution to here is obviously about vaccines. Whenever I talk about anything, because that’s my area of expertise when it comes to obviously giving them to children and what I know about them. But is there anything else you wanted to add to that follow up from what I just was saying?
00;18;11;09 – 00;18;38;07
Nini Munoz
Yeah, to to just as point they set up these false dichotomies. Right. So that’s like the whole like the, the, the whole trend of the movement. Right. You see this or that. Right. So and one of the things that they do, as Jess mentioned, is they take the risk out of context, right? Yeah. Because if you like, I could tell people today, oh yeah, there have been 22 times more airplane crashes this year relative to like last year.
00;18;38;07 – 00;19;00;02
Nini Munoz
Right. And then for what does that mean? Right. If you take a look at that, what we say, like our historical process control charts, you will see that that’s not outside of what we call statistical noise. Right. Or it takes, you know, things out of context that most of those airplane crashes and you’re probably seeing it a lot in the news, right, are from private aircraft and they’re not in commercial aircraft as expected.
00;19;00;02 – 00;19;27;06
Nini Munoz
So by really taking the risk out of context, that’s how these narratives get over amplified, setting up these false dichotomies of this or that, when in reality it’s a lot more complex. Right? And and to justice point like, yeah, if you swap one ingredient for the other, now you’ve introduced new red. And we always say in data science and engineering you don’t get rid of risk, you just replace it with another one.
00;19;27;09 – 00;19;31;26
Nini Munoz
Yeah. Right. It’s just you know and so like and that’s what often gets lost in these discussions.
00;19;32;01 – 00;19;47;10
Dr. Mona
And I, you know in my offices obviously on social parents have a lot of questions about dyes and all of these things, which I think is really an important thing, is that we want to have conversations around science. We want to have curiosity. Right. Like, I think some of the sentiment is, well, why don’t you want to ask these questions?
00;19;47;10 – 00;20;14;08
Dr. Mona
But using the vaccine example and then I want to go into something about the food. This whole at this point, at the timing of this recording, they are now the CDC is saying that they want to research the connection between vaccines and autism, which has been debunked multiple times. And so the reason we get frustrated is not because we think they’re going to expose something because we know it’s not there, it’s because it has been done in the United States, in other countries, in a controlled, proper way multiple times.
00;20;14;08 – 00;20;32;20
Dr. Mona
So now for keep if we keep doing these studies, what it’s saying to people in America is actually yeah, we do think that there is an issue, even though we said there’s not an issue, we just want to do more research on an area that’s already been debunked. So now it’s it’s stirring up. Well, is it is it because now our government is is testing it.
00;20;32;20 – 00;20;58;25
Dr. Mona
And then that isn’t fair to the research that’s been done. It’s expensive. These things are not cheap. To run a properly done study right. You need a proper study. And so my concern with that is are we now going to create studies that aren’t reputable. Is it just to feed a narrative. Right. There was a study that came out of the Medicaid population in Florida, which was done by a prominent anti-vaxxer and was peer reviewed by a prominent anti-vaxxer.
00;20;58;25 – 00;21;00;21
Dr. Mona
That is not adequate research.
00;21;00;21 – 00;21;02;18
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Studies and was published on a WordPress blog.
00;21;02;18 – 00;21;04;02
Nini Munoz
Yeah, no one in his blog.
00;21;04;03 – 00;21;21;05
Dr. Mona
And I know we’ve all spoken about it. And I was like, oh my, I was on a vacation when I saw it. I’m like, everyone was like, why are you so upset? I’m like, guys, I just need a moment to read this. But it was obvious to us, you know, I I’ve done research too in my undergrad, so I know that these things are not they’re supposed to be done a certain way and that is what is concerning.
00;21;21;05 – 00;21;39;23
Dr. Mona
It’s not the questioning of science, it’s that are we questioning it the wrong way? And are we feeding time and energy into things that were refuted? And one of the big things about the Dei, you know, I have a lot of families wanting the best in the foods for their children. And I think that, you know, just your point about it’s not even just about removing the diets about the actual food.
00;21;39;23 – 00;22;08;22
Dr. Mona
And I work in a very diverse population. I take care of billionaire’s children, but I also take care of Medicaid children. And I, I say that because of this, what I see is across the board, there is disparity in the population that I’m seeing. And it is truth that in lower income communities, especially Latino and African-American neighborhoods, they have 2 to 35 times more advertising space on billboards devoted to food and beverages compared to other neighborhoods.
00;22;08;22 – 00;22;26;23
Dr. Mona
And I see this when I drive around my city. I live in Fort Lauderdale and I drive around and I go into an area that is more underserved, and you just all of a sudden see billboards for cities and billboards for fast food and soda and that is part of the problem, right? I, I think this is just one of the things that I know.
00;22;26;23 – 00;22;42;17
Dr. Mona
Jess, you said you have a long list, but one of the things is, how are we advertising to these families? What sort of nutrition education are these families getting? Because when I see them, I’m it sounds like I’m the first one having to tell them because there’s a generational well, my mom did this and this is the money we have.
00;22;42;17 – 00;23;02;04
Dr. Mona
How do I make this money go further? And what is afforded by there’s, you know, whatever they have to pay for these foods is local stores that carry this, these items. Right. They have they don’t have fresh grocery stores. They have corner stores at the front. It’s chips and it’s processed foods. It’s ultra processed foods. So how are we going to do the education?
00;23;02;08 – 00;23;22;17
Dr. Mona
What are these lower income families dealing with that is not able to get them out of the poverty? To be able to have the education to make smarter food choices, that in turn, can reduce the risk of childhood obesity, you know, cholesterol that is what I get frustrated. But the conversations on on how are not having because they’re not thinking of the poor Americans.
00;23;22;17 – 00;23;41;04
Dr. Mona
They’re not I mean, there is no policy being made thinking about lower income families that I have to now have these discussions with when they’re left in the dust, when Medicaid cuts are happening because they want to make cuts for whoever they want to make cuts for. And it’s it’s just a frustrating cycle of the cycle are just going to get sicker, in my opinion.
00;23;41;04 – 00;23;47;08
Dr. Mona
And that’s what I’m seeing right now. And I’ve been seeing it and I just worry it’s going to get worse.
00;23;47;11 – 00;23;55;18
Dr. Mona
Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.
00;23;55;21 – 00;24;22;28
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. This is the one of my biggest frustrations with the movement is it’s very targeted toward middle to upper class individuals. And, you know, like I made a video I think one time that was like, you know, when you already have access to health care and access to education and access to food, you know, and, fruits and vegetables and fresh food, then you have the luxury of worrying about, you know, like number ten out of ten on the list, which is like food additives, right?
00;24;22;28 – 00;24;42;26
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Like, oh, so like red dye 40 in the Skittles. My kid’s going to have a birthday party every couple of weeks, right? So or every couple of months. And so and it’s like not even thinking about the vast majority of the population who are not thinking about these, like, food additives. They’re thinking about, can I have access? Can I afford some fruits and vegetables?
00;24;42;26 – 00;25;06;14
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Right. Because the way that our subsidies are and we tend to make produce more expensive in this country, and we could fix that from a policy perspective. But we don’t. And we’re not focused on those changes because we’re focused on these additive changes. And so that that’s very frustrating is that like we’re, we’re it’s it’s one of my biggest frustrations is it’s a major distraction from so many policy changes that could affect the people who are most impacted by chronic disease.
00;25;06;14 – 00;25;24;27
Dr. Jessica Knurick
We keep talking about wanting to improve chronic disease. If you want to improve chronic disease from a public health perspective, you have to target the groups that are disproportionately negatively impacted by chronic disease, and that’s low income populations. And there’s research to show. I mean, you can look at the maps, too. You can look at poverty maps in America, and then you can look at any chronic disease you want to put up there.
00;25;24;27 – 00;25;41;09
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And you’ll see that it follows right along the stroke belt. Right, right along the the poverty belt. They’re all the same belt. And so when you look at those and then you look at the research that shows that between the highest and lowest income populations, there’s a 15 year life expectancy gap for men and a ten year life expectancy gap for women.
00;25;41;11 – 00;26;08;18
Dr. Jessica Knurick
So when you see that, you’re like, okay, well, what can we do to actually target these, these populations? And now, you know, with this movement, they are aligned with a party that is trying to take health care and, and food and, and foods, food assistance from these the same population, which are evidence based ways, by the way, from public health perspective, they’re evidence based ways to improve the health of Americans is to give them nutrition assistance, is to get people access to health care.
00;26;08;23 – 00;26;19;13
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And so so it’s it got it flies in the face of making America healthy when you’re when you’re kind of doing that and then talking about food additives as if they care about food additives when they can’t get access to health care and food.
00;26;19;13 – 00;26;35;14
Dr. Mona
And you’re right that it’s what concerns me is that when, you know, I’m in Florida, which is quote unquote, a red state, a lot of the red states, like you said, and this is not making it political, but it’s just fact that a lot of our southern red states also have the highest obesity levels and the lowest education rates.
00;26;35;22 – 00;26;36;07
Nini Munoz
Absolutely.
00;26;36;07 – 00;27;01;20
Dr. Mona
And so that is not by design. That is an unfortunate reality of policy. Right? I mean, I see this in state level. And so that’s why I get concern is that, you know, Louisiana recently had the, you know, removal of the mass vaccination education programs. You mean they’re still allowing vaccines, but they’re not doing mass, you know, clinics and, promotion billboards, all the things that I know really matter when I look at these lower income families that I work with in Florida.
00;27;01;28 – 00;27;17;21
Dr. Mona
And so that is a concerning thing to me, because now if the government is having all this messaging or they say, let’s throw it to the states, the states, you all can decide what you do with your education program, or you can decide what you do. You know who’s going to get most disadvantaged red states.
00;27;17;27 – 00;27;19;01
Nini Munoz
Yeah, absolutely.
00;27;19;01 – 00;27;39;29
Dr. Mona
And that is scary to me that I am living in a red state with a child. My children who are who their peers because they do not have access or they do not have money, are not going to get the same basic outcome of health and education, which I believe every child should have access to, like health and education should not be based on how much money you make in America.
00;27;40;03 – 00;27;40;12
Dr. Mona
It’s my.
00;27;40;12 – 00;27;42;20
Nini Munoz
Opinion. Yeah. Or which state you live in right.
00;27;42;22 – 00;27;44;12
Dr. Mona
Health and education. Right. But it is.
00;27;44;16 – 00;27;44;20
Nini Munoz
Yeah.
00;27;44;22 – 00;27;50;20
Dr. Mona
It’s becoming that. And it’s going to be it’s scary to me because it’s going to become more like a developing country than it is a developed one.
00;27;50;20 – 00;28;15;14
Nini Munoz
It’s kind of funny you mentioned that because I come from Colombia, right? And I have to explain to people why I left. I left Colombia because there were it’s you’re trapped in cycles of classism, right. And, you know, there’s the racial component, right? So all schooling there is, for the most part privatized. So there are public schools, but they are really for the marginally poor.
00;28;15;21 – 00;28;35;20
Nini Munoz
What this means is that when you take a look at your distribution, right, a, a huge part of your population is not getting access to opportunities. And it’s kind of funny that you when you take a look at the who the best doctors are in Colombia, they’re not the smarter one or the ones that could have had the most potential.
00;28;35;25 – 00;28;59;29
Nini Munoz
They’re the ones whose parents had a practice. Yeah. And that and that’s why immigrants leave their countries. And it’s interesting you really bring this up because I’ve been talking to my husband about this for years. I’m like, why are they trying to make this like Colombia? And then, yeah, end up having so much poverty. So, so I think that there’s this misconception that they can just get rid of poverty, right?
00;28;59;29 – 00;29;30;03
Nini Munoz
Like it’s just oh, we’re just going to like do it away. We’re going to force it doesn’t go away. People just don’t die, right? People continue to live with more and more comorbidities. And, you know, it impacts educational attainment. Of course, that’s immediately related to like the economy, right? Yeah. But what ends up happening at least what’s happened in Colombia and I’m not sure what would happen here, is that that the middle class in Colombia, has to pay so much more tax.
00;29;30;06 – 00;29;54;29
Nini Munoz
To sustain that. Right. Because as they said, it’s not like it’s not as though these individuals just perish. Right. You can’t just do away with poverty, especially when you’re making it worse. And so and that’s what really destabilizes democracies I mean I, I, I escape that we were like caught in the middle of a civil war. People think that civil war is people in a battlefield.
00;29;54;29 – 00;29;59;07
Nini Munoz
And I’m always like, no, it’s more like isolated, terrorism right now.
00;29;59;07 – 00;30;03;24
Dr. Mona
It’s now it’s on social media. Yeah. Now it’s ver it’s, you know, digital, digital civil wars.
00;30;03;29 – 00;30;28;07
Nini Munoz
Yeah. It’s really fascinating to watch. You know, for me like that I lift, I lift that I had to escape that because there was no opportunity for me to do what I could do here, right there. There’s no path for meritocracy in these developing nations, right? There’s just these classic systems that get perpetuated by whatever infrastructure they’re at, for lack of.
00;30;28;09 – 00;30;45;20
Nini Munoz
And it just worsens disparity in disparity. And that’s what a lot of individuals point to. It’s like, you know, people always have like, oh, let’s take a look at our GDP. And I’m like, no, no, no. Let’s look at our disparity. That’s the more telling figure because as you mentioned, it is directly tied to health outcomes. Like yeah, we know this.
00;30;45;20 – 00;31;05;12
Nini Munoz
We see this like there’s there is just an abundance of data that shows you that individuals that make less than, you know, household Democrats and $25,000 are almost four times as likely to have multiple chronic diseases. Right. And so on and so forth. We we know that, you know, as just mentioned, there’s a huge gap in the life expectancy, right?
00;31;05;12 – 00;31;31;17
Nini Munoz
I think in Chicago alone, it was about 11 years life expectancy between the wealthiest and the poorest populations. Right. We know that 40% of adults that don’t have, you know, that that don’t have a high school diploma, right? They’re uninsured. So already you see that connection between, you know, poverty, educational attainment and health outcomes. And it’s just really going to trap people in those cycles, and it’s going to make it so much worse.
00;31;31;19 – 00;31;46;14
Dr. Mona
Absolutely. And, Jess, I want you to remember the list of things, because I do want to talk about that at the end. Okay. I remember you also did screen like you also did put it on your stories too. And I like screenshot it because I wanted you, you know, to bring it up on the, on the conversation today because it’s stuff that I also agree with.
00;31;46;17 – 00;32;02;07
Dr. Mona
We already spoke. We’ve already spoken to a lot of it, but I would love to end the conversation today with that. So don’t forget that. And I do want to talk about vaccines. We did speak about it already in some detail. But you know, obviously Robert Kennedy Jr is now the the head of the Health and Human Services.
00;32;02;07 – 00;32;21;28
Dr. Mona
And he’s known for his vaccine skepticism, even though people keep telling me he’s not anti-vaccine, I’m like, I’m like, how many videos do you need me to show you that? He has said, Gardasil is the most worst vaccine. Gardasil is the HPV vaccine for anyone who’s not familiar, which has been shown to actually reduce the incidence of cervical cancer.
00;32;22;00 – 00;32;41;24
Dr. Mona
Him telling us that, you know, we don’t you know, I would never recommend someone to get a vaccine. Whenever I run into someone when I’m hiking, I tell them that I’m not going to do it. They shouldn’t get a vaccine for their their baby. That is vaccine. Vaccine skepticism. That is anti-vaccine sentiment. And that doesn’t mean we should be able to call that out like that is fact.
00;32;41;26 – 00;33;03;02
Dr. Mona
So how might his appointment influence public trust and health policies and vaccination programs? And more importantly, in any what is what is his viewpoint and the major movement getting wrong about anything related to vaccine data that you can provide and maybe give us the give us the we can do the measles version since we’re dealing with a measles outbreak, whatever you feel is appropriate that people should hear.
00;33;03;09 – 00;33;24;24
Nini Munoz
So, you know, and as you mentioned earlier, he is casting doubt right on the safety and effectiveness of vaccines, which I would consider like singlehandedly the most studied intervention that we have. Right. If you take a look at the in person years, we have so much data on their safety and their effectiveness. And he is going to, you know, try to, change that narrative.
00;33;24;24 – 00;33;59;03
Nini Munoz
Right. I already getting ready for whatever study is going to be coming out so that we’re going to have to tackle that, because, yeah, it is going to create not just confusion, but it’s also going to erode. Right. Whatever trust we have left. Right. In public health and public health institutions. And so and I think one of the things to really consider, again, going back to that false dichotomy where he puts, chronic disease versus infectious disease, when in reality, as you just mentioned, they’re directly correlated, like there is a reason that multiple sclerosis is being tackled by taking a look at Epstein-Barr.
00;33;59;03 – 00;34;20;29
Nini Munoz
Right. You know, I take a look at the latest work that’s being done to, get cures for multiple sclerosis or EBV. There’s a reason why the incidence of cervical cancer plummeted to zero, right? When, you know, in the latest, you know, HPV vaccine data. Right, because they’re directly correlated, you just cannot undo one. Right, and try to address the other.
00;34;20;29 – 00;34;42;04
Nini Munoz
And there’s so much more that we don’t know. Right? We know that, you know, you know, H. Pylori, right? Is it’s related to like, you know, stomach cancers and the list goes on and on. Right? So it definitely, again, not only erode the public trust, you know, on on like, you know, on, on the public health front in our vaccines, but it also creates a lot of confusion.
00;34;42;07 – 00;35;02;27
Nini Munoz
Right. And, and and really just creates this, this or that right scenario that really doesn’t exist. And you, you know, you probably know this more as a pediatrician, that there’s a reason we have like the vaccine schedule, right? Yeah. I remember when I took my daughter to the pediatrician and she was so grateful that I was like, yeah, do all shots at once.
00;35;02;27 – 00;35;03;27
Nini Munoz
And she was like, really?
00;35;03;27 – 00;35;19;15
Dr. Mona
Pediatrician? Yeah, yeah. Well, it’s now surprising. Yeah. I mean, or I’m not dealing with a conversation and I don’t listen, I don’t mind having the conversations, but they take a lot longer. And you know, it ends up being like, what’s going to happen at the end of this? Is it going to be like, you know, I can you can imagine why it’s important or not.
00;35;19;15 – 00;35;21;22
Dr. Mona
So we do we do get a little happy when. Yeah.
00;35;21;23 – 00;35;22;03
Nini Munoz
She was.
00;35;22;04 – 00;35;22;19
Dr. Mona
Oh thank.
00;35;22;19 – 00;35;40;25
Nini Munoz
You was like she was like really I can do all four I think. Yeah. Because there was a reason the vaccine schedule exists. Right. We know that there are specific interactions, like a vaccine might not be as effective. Right. If you combine it with another one, we also have to take a look at the data when or when our children are more likely to see these diseases.
00;35;40;25 – 00;36;09;27
Nini Munoz
Right. So that yeah, there’s a reason for that. Like talking about like the measles vaccine. Right. We it’s administered at 12 months right of age because it could interfere with placental antibodies from pregnancy. Right. So we don’t administer it earlier or it doesn’t really count because we know that the immune response can be dampened. And so, you know, that is like one concern, you know, that we really see happening because there’s already always conversations about like the delayed vaccine schedule and there’s no real data on that.
00;36;09;29 – 00;36;42;03
Nini Munoz
Yeah. All the data that we have you look at take a look at control trials for new vaccines. Right. That control group is, you know, the prior vaccine cohort. Right. And you are comparing against that baseline data. Right. So it really can be very problematic even for like our old vaccine effectiveness. Right. Like it’s you know, yeah, many, many of these vaccines, especially when you are you know, taking a look at the, the live attenuated virus vaccines, you know, there’s a certain time they have to be administered, they can’t be combined with other things.
00;36;42;05 – 00;36;46;19
Nini Munoz
And so I think that is one big concern on the vaccine front. Yeah.
00;36;46;19 – 00;37;08;04
Dr. Mona
And I think, I have had conversations with so many of my families, some most of them end up getting vaccines. Some of them do do a augmented schedule. Knowing that I do like the routine schedule, and a lot of it is because my feeling is I rather have them get it than not get it at all. So if they’re like, you know what, I want to do one at a time and I will come back every week to get it done one at a time.
00;37;08;06 – 00;37;25;15
Dr. Mona
I tell them it’s better to do it together because that’s less injection and, you know, less, less additives, product, whatever. But they still want to do one at a time, and I support that. But one of the common things that I get asked is, well, then why are there pediatricians out there that promote these alternative schedules? Because they’re pediatricians.
00;37;25;15 – 00;37;42;22
Dr. Mona
They what are what do they know that you don’t know? And I want to be very clear about this. So any time you have someone who is also a credentialed expert that is now going against the grain, you got to ask yourself a few things. What are they exactly saying? Because sometimes we can have different nuance in how we do recommendations.
00;37;42;22 – 00;38;09;25
Dr. Mona
Like I may say, you know, your kid is healthy, the risk of getting Covid and having complications is much lower. You can decide or, you know, flu. I would still love you to consider the flu vaccine. Maybe you make personal choices with your doctor, but an outright I’m not. I think a delayed schedule is recommended. There is more money in being an anti-vax pediatrician or a pediatrician that will say, let’s space out the schedule and there isn’t actually being a pediatrician.
00;38;09;27 – 00;38;28;01
Dr. Mona
I can make a lot more money going out there and saying, you know what, everybody, let’s do an alternative schedule because we don’t need this anymore. You don’t need to do that. If I’m giving that advice to everybody because it is such a personalized decision. So you got to be careful when you’re hearing specialized people talk about vaccines and saying, well, no.
00;38;28;01 – 00;38;44;10
Dr. Mona
And I, you know, doctor series is a very popular one, right? He popularized the alternative schedule. And every a lot of my, a lot of my patients come in wanting to follow doctor see or schedule. And I say I need to understand that, doctor. So your schedule is not based on any data. So if we do his schedule, this is on your choice.
00;38;44;10 – 00;39;10;21
Dr. Mona
Understanding that we don’t know the efficacy. And if you want to continue that is your choice. I’m fine, but I don’t. I have to explain to them why the schedule, the CDC schedule what you just said beautifully, Nini, that I want them to be covered for these things when they most need it. Right? DTaP I don’t want to wait for DTaP because it’s the babies I’m most worried about for pertussis, for rotavirus, if your child is in daycare, I really need them to consider getting the rotavirus and then measles you brought up beautifully.
00;39;10;27 – 00;39;31;19
Dr. Mona
And so sometimes people just don’t know that. And a huge struggle that we’re dealing with is that pediatricians are losing time with their patients with corporate reimbursements. And like, the less time we get with patients means the less time to have these conversations. And I’ve spoken about this a lot, that when people start going online, people start going to places where they can’t get that that conversation going.
00;39;31;19 – 00;39;51;29
Dr. Mona
And I think that’s a huge disservice, to patients when we can’t have these. Hey, I hear what you’re saying, but let me explain it to you. And that’s why I love talking to both of you who do this online. Right. Let me explain to you and for you, just how does this apply to your specialty? Right. Obviously, I know you, you punched vaccine education to other people because that’s not your area of expertise, and I appreciate that.
00;39;51;29 – 00;40;00;28
Dr. Mona
But in terms of, you know, the nutrition, how has this sort of nutrition skepticism, how is this sort of played out in your in your area of expertise?
00;40;01;00 – 00;40;20;06
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Well, I think one such thing about what you said in terms of how there is a lot of money to be made in kind of going against the grain on social media. It’s the oddest thing, too, because people look at those, you know, credentialed people who are spreading kind of what we would term like misinformation, right? I mean, it’s not backed by evidence.
00;40;20;08 – 00;40;39;06
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And they look at them as like these brave yet kind of like whistleblowers who are like in it for the good of their hearts and like, we are the ones who are like, paid off. And it’s it’s just wild, particularly in my field. I don’t know about yours, but, you know, in the nutrition space, oh my God, I could make so much more money if I use my credentials.
00;40;39;13 – 00;41;02;06
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And, you know, said that everything that the actual experts were saying was wrong and it sold a whole like website full of wellness solutions and $5,000, you know, hyperbaric chambers and detoxes and like I, it’s just mind blowing to me that like, people like that are considered these like, you know, really important doing important work and being so brave.
00;41;02;06 – 00;41;06;22
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Brave is like a term I hear all the time. And it’s like, no, it’s not bravery. They’re making millions of dollars.
00;41;06;22 – 00;41;07;21
Nini Munoz
Yeah, I do like that.
00;41;07;27 – 00;41;28;07
Dr. Jessica Knurick
They’re lying. Millions of dollars just lying. And it’s so easy to do. You just get on. You do some sort of like conspiratorial, you know, fear mongering post that social media algorithms love. Right. And they, they’ll show it to lots of people. And it’s so much harder to go on and actually talk about the actual evidence and talk about it in a nuanced way and get views that way.
00;41;28;07 – 00;41;30;04
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And then, by the way, not sell anything.
00;41;30;04 – 00;41;30;29
Dr. Mona
Well for it.
00;41;30;29 – 00;41;32;22
Dr. Jessica Knurick
I think it’s just wild.
00;41;32;22 – 00;41;45;29
Dr. Mona
Jess, you had talked about like the the formula right? Like it’s like they, they create fear around something. They hold your hand a little bit and then they sell you something. Right. What is the formula that you talked about? Like how to call out, misinformation.
00;41;46;02 – 00;41;54;25
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Yeah. Yeah. That’s basically it. Right. They, they they scare the shit out. You send them and then they sell you a solution to a, made a to a problem they made up.
00;41;54;27 – 00;42;14;12
Dr. Mona
I mean, we see this with a lot of I mean, and my biggest struggle in the pediatric spaces with naturopaths. Right. Because I, I do believe naturopaths have a role in this world. And I believe chiropractors have a role in this world. I do believe all of us with our expertise can. But when it starts to be that, when it starts to say, let me create fear.
00;42;14;12 – 00;42;31;21
Dr. Mona
And I’ve seen this right, the fear is there. Oh my gosh, this is going to harm your kid. But I get it. I’m a mama too. And as a mama, like you just want the best. But you know, comment book for my book con on this and I will send it to you for 89, 99 and we will get through this together.
00;42;31;21 – 00;42;50;02
Dr. Mona
And I’m like, can we not see through the B.S. here? And you’re right. Just I could make far more money doing that and selling all the supplements in the world, or even even branding myself, would supplement companies that come out of the woodworks wanting me to partner with them, saying, hey, this is the end all be all for immune health.
00;42;50;02 – 00;43;13;00
Dr. Mona
And I’m like, but it’s not like, how can I lie to my my followers? Because I know. Could it be something that we can add to a diet? Sure could. You know, doing all these things like we talk about, but is it it’s not a definitive thing. And we talked about this already. It’s this black and white definitive dichotomy, the sort of I this is what’s good and this is what’s bad that I think is ruining a lot of the health care education.
00;43;13;00 – 00;43;29;24
Dr. Mona
And a lot of it is happening online. And it’s so stressful. It’s so frustrating because you’re like, I can see through it. But a lot of consumers cannot. And I’m we are all dealing with that in our offices online. Like having to explain this stuff and say, I get it. But but no, let me let me explain why.
00;43;29;24 – 00;43;48;04
Dr. Mona
And I don’t want you to feel like you are a terrible mom or dad if you didn’t buy that supplement, or if you couldn’t afford to join the $100 a month membership to get elevated health education. You know, like it’s it’s an unfortunate reality and it’s it’s business. Everything’s a business and I business model.
00;43;48;06 – 00;44;03;17
Nini Munoz
Yeah. I was totally naive about that by the way, when I first started doing this. And then, you know, I took some time off from social media after I had my daughter because, you know, postpartum. And then I came back and then I was like, looking into it. And I was like, wait, they were making millions during like the Covid pandemic.
00;44;03;17 – 00;44;25;16
Nini Munoz
I was just totally, like, out of the loop by how many of these individuals had their own, like, supplement brand, like McCullough, for instance. McCullough. So like key has popularized the idea of like Covid vaccines or not. You know, I carry all this risk and there’s vaccine induced myocarditis, which we know is a real risk because there’s also a kernel of truth.
00;44;25;16 – 00;44;53;26
Nini Munoz
Right. But then he also was like the chief scientific officer or something like that of a wellness company. And like if you go to the wellness, like the website, one of the products they sell is like the anti spike like capsule. Yeah, right. This whole idea about around vaccine shedding and there is so much money to be made, especially because they are creating spaces where I think what you’re referring to is the, the, the fallacy called Galileo isms like Galileo.
00;44;53;26 – 00;45;15;03
Nini Munoz
Right. How Galileo was first persecuted for his beliefs. Right. And so they’re creating these spaces where if you cannot find any other information that confirms your beliefs, right. Well, here is this space. And by becoming that new space, they can more readily, readily monetize what they do then we could because we’re just disseminating information that’s publicly available. Right.
00;45;15;03 – 00;45;23;19
Nini Munoz
And just, you know, we’re constant aggregators to that extent. Right? We’re just putting together information that’s already out there. But it really is a huge business model. Yeah.
00;45;23;22 – 00;45;48;04
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And I think I think even more than the money part, I think it’s also, it has become this like world that as Nini kind of said, it really confirms biases. And so when that happens, you know, I have done posts where I take somebody else’s posts, let’s say it’s like doctor Mark Hyman, who I, who I do and I, and it’s just blatantly false and it’s so easily provable that it’s false.
00;45;48;04 – 00;46;12;17
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And I like, prove it in the video and I’ll show like, how it’s false. And, I will still get so much pushback because people just they already believe kind of the, the idea that the science is corrupt and wellness is not and wellness is like and the information, you know, people need to be healthier. And so it doesn’t matter if these people are lying to you in their posts.
00;46;12;19 – 00;46;31;22
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Because, because the end result they believe in. And I think that’s just a really dangerous place to kind of find ourselves in. And, and Moni, you said something really important, though, that I do think we need to talk about, which is like, why has this space been able to do what they’re doing? And I call it predatory wellness because I am actually very pro wellness.
00;46;31;24 – 00;46;53;03
Dr. Jessica Knurick
I come from a nutrition science. Like I really have always been like in the prevention. My, my dissertation work was in the prevention of chronic disease. I live really what I call like wellness focused life, right. Like I’m exercising daily. I’m eating whole whole foods. I’m trying to like, meditate as much as I can. I don’t much trying to get outside, you know, all the things that are true wellness.
00;46;53;06 – 00;47;08;04
Dr. Jessica Knurick
But that’s not predatory wellness, right. And so when we’re talking about wellness, I just want to make clear that’s kind of what we’re talking about. This like let’s scare you out of these things. Pretend science is a quote unquote cult and then sell you all of these products to make millions of dollars, which is happening in that space.
00;47;08;04 – 00;47;25;19
Dr. Jessica Knurick
But again, like, why is that space allowed and able to become so big and I do think that it’s because we do have these problems in our medical system. And, and a lot of people are feeling like, okay, well, I’m not getting what I need from like the medical system. And so I’m going to go online for my information.
00;47;25;19 – 00;47;44;10
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And then they start, you know, getting into an algorithm. And that’s where they start getting all of their information. And so I do think we need to figure out a way, and science, science also has a problem because we’re not great communicators in the scientific community. And we also kind of keep everything like our, you know, we write in a way that’s not accessible for people.
00;47;44;13 – 00;48;05;23
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Our work is behind paywalls that you have to pay like $75 to read a single article. Right? So that’s a big problem as well. And you don’t have a lot of people like Bill Nye out there, like be like accessible science communicators. So I think we have problems in the space that we have to deal with in order to make, like actual evidence based information more accessible for people so that they’re not driven to this wellness industry.
00;48;05;23 – 00;48;20;20
Dr. Mona
I mean, one of the things that I will add to the end when we go through, like, you know, what we need to change is it is the health care model. I mean, I’m a pediatrician married to an ER doctor. So we are on the front end of everything and we both see all of the problems in the American health care system.
00;48;20;20 – 00;48;37;16
Dr. Mona
I mean, I see it from children growing up. My husband sees it for all the older adults coming in, and we both talk about that. Right? We both we both live also very well life. And we’re very grateful for that. You know, outdoors a lot. We’re in Florida. We’re literally outdoors more than we’re indoors when we’re, you know, in terms of the weekends and stuff.
00;48;37;16 – 00;48;54;27
Dr. Mona
And we love that and obviously the foods and stuff like that. But it’s that predatory wellness. It’s the fact that it’s not getting better. I mean, the health care model is getting so much worse that we are seeing people use the E.R. as their primary care doctor, because primary care doctors aren’t making enough money to do their job, right.
00;48;54;27 – 00;49;17;01
Dr. Mona
So they so what do they have to do when we talk about business? Because I never want to make it seem like having to take care of your family is a bad thing, right? So I’m talking about the predatory wellness, where we’re making millions and billions of dollars spreading misinformation. But I get that we have to maybe a doctor who has to start a concierge practice, you know, which means that they are taking a, fee for every month, right?
00;49;17;01 – 00;49;32;12
Dr. Mona
I get why doctors do that. Because they get a better balance. They get more time with their families, their patients, you know, they get more time to explain things. And so although everything is a business, we got to look at the intent of what the business selling is like. What is it that we’re trying to sell here?
00;49;32;12 – 00;49;53;24
Dr. Mona
Is it that we’re trying to sell quality information that we are trying to do face to face contact? Right. Like these concierge doctors, which I think is a very valid business model, or is it that we are just saying everything is bad? I’m the good. Don’t listen to anything science says, which is where I get concerned. And the biggest concern I have is that when wellness goes wrong, who are they going to come back to?
00;49;53;28 – 00;50;13;21
Dr. Mona
Yeah, they’re going to come back to us because we have the science, right? We have the tech, we have everything involved in sort of medical, in the medical establishment. Right. If a child and I’ve seen this happen already, right. So if a child goes on a Facebook or a mom goes on a Facebook group and they’re someone says, you know, yeah, give your child this for some some fever, right.
00;50;13;21 – 00;50;36;27
Dr. Mona
Don’t worry about giving them X, Y and Z or you know, I gave ten, you know, ten milligrams of turmeric. Okay. They’re going to end up in my office. They’re going to end up in the E.R. and then it’s going to overwhelm our system. So my concern with the wellness industry is not that we should not have wellness, is that people don’t understand that when things go wrong, they’re going to go to the very people that they were against in the first place.
00;50;36;27 – 00;50;54;13
Dr. Mona
And that’s why I don’t like the black and white. Right. I don’t want it to be that I’m against medical establishment and I’m against wellness. I think we all agree that I love wellness. I see an acupuncturist. I used to get chiropractic care. I talked to my husband about seeing a natural path for a medical issue he had when nobody else could figure it out.
00;50;54;13 – 00;51;12;07
Dr. Mona
If things got better. But I was like, you know, why don’t we look at all of our resources here, and I’m okay with that. But I also know the limitations of everything. You know, I know that I should not be getting vaccine advice from a natural path who’s never rotated in a pediatric ICU like they never seen the things that I’ve seen.
00;51;12;07 – 00;51;33;14
Dr. Mona
Right. And so that is not fair. And so I wish that it wasn’t so much like then. That’s why I’m glad we’re having this conversation, because I worry that it’s going to flip so much back that we’re just going to see people overdoing these things when there’s no scientific evidence that people are throwing out for a lot of this wellness stuff and not saying, hey, we don’t know how much elderberry is safe.
00;51;33;20 – 00;51;47;22
Dr. Mona
I don’t mind if you take elderberry, but do we know how much is safe exactly for a ten kilo child? No. And so I give that education because I know the balance. But we all know that balance and nuance doesn’t sell, and it’s not sexy.
00;51;47;25 – 00;52;07;09
Nini Munoz
No, it does that. And and what you’re really talking about here is opportunity cost to go back to how we can isolate how risk is isolated. Right. So what is left out of the conversation when we talk about wellness is what are the opportunity cost. Like what is it. Yeah. If you pursue the path of wellness what may you be missing out.
00;52;07;09 – 00;52;39;11
Nini Munoz
Right. Or what are you giving up. And it’s like pursuing proper care, right. The potential harms of toxicities that have been, you know, pervasive in the wellness because it’s not just like it’s harmless. It gets framed sometimes as that. Oh, this is harmless. And back to your point. One of the bigger opportunity calls that, you know, I know many people in public health, you know, and our concern and clinicians is exactly that, that when wellness fails, it won’t be these individuals who are at the forefront of the wellness movement, who are tending to patients, just like we’re seeing with the measles outbreak.
00;52;39;11 – 00;53;05;19
Nini Munoz
And. Right, right. It’s it’s hospitals and what and what people sometimes fail to see because again, we’re talking about red versus blue state and not to get political. It really does impact anyone. Because if now there is an outbreak, you know, again, because we no longer die before the age of five, I mean, not as many of us die before the age of five, like the whole clinical practice has also shifted right more to taking care of patients with chronic diseases.
00;53;05;19 – 00;53;29;10
Nini Munoz
And we, you know, that’s, you know, children are not just small adults. It takes specialized care. So now what happens to our system when it’s overwhelmed, especially with children, right. Like we are not equipped to handle that. Yeah. We’re not equipped. And then it will impact neighboring states. Like if we now have to make like space for, you know, people that need hospital care all of a sudden.
00;53;29;12 – 00;53;48;01
Nini Munoz
Yeah, I may be in California, but I may be impacted by an outbreak in New Mexico, right, or Arizona, because now, like, there might be an outbreak of, you know, of measles and they’re bringing those patients over, right, if that gets out of hand. And so I think people really need to understand that wellness cannot be viewed in isolation.
00;53;48;01 – 00;53;54;21
Nini Munoz
It’s just not harmless. There are things that you’re missing out and understand what the implications of those are.
00;53;54;24 – 00;53;57;25
Dr. Mona
Yeah.
00;53;57;27 – 00;54;11;29
Dr. Mona
Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show. Just do you have anything to add about the wellness movement that you feel like we’re missing on this, on this, especially with nutrition education?
00;54;12;01 – 00;54;28;15
Dr. Jessica Knurick
I mean, I just think, again, it’s very important to point out the difference between we need a better term for the wellness that we’re talking about because we I think all are on board with wellness. My, my, the the title of my PhD is actually Physical Activity and Nutrition and Wellness. That was the that was a program that I was in.
00;54;28;17 – 00;54;46;13
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And so we’re, we’re just to try to drive home like be living a well life and wellness how it’s always been like how we’ve always defined it, is something that we’re all I mean. And medical doctors talk all the time about, you know, you guys get a bad rap for, like, never speaking about nutrition or, or physical activity.
00;54;46;14 – 00;55;10;13
Dr. Jessica Knurick
But the medical doctors I’ve spoken with, they constantly bring that up, particularly the ones in prevention like primary care. But there’s a difference between that and selling you $130 colostrum supplements because it’s going to be some sort of cure. All right. Or, or it’s spreading some sort of fearmongering post about something and then selling you a detox that that is an unnecessary detox.
00;55;10;13 – 00;55;24;19
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And so I just I just think we need to really make sure that we’re, that we’re focusing in on the predatory wellness when we’re talking about wellness and not. And I don’t want people to think we don’t want people to live healthy lifestyles because we absolutely do, obviously.
00;55;24;19 – 00;55;45;20
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And I and that is one of the hardest things being on the front line of health, education. You know, obviously being forward facing as a physician, my husband’s a physician as well. And my husband isn’t get as much because he’s an ER doctor. He’s literally stabilizing almost people who are people who are really sick. But for me, you know, I, I thankfully have a lot of families who come to me knowing that I am a very preventative, focused pediatrician.
00;55;45;20 – 00;56;08;06
Dr. Mona
And for anyone listening who feels like their pediatrician is not, I’m going to be quite honest, that I’m pretty sure they started out like that, but the system has made them burnt out and I’m not. I know we talk a lot about that, but I just see it happen so, so often that my fellow colleagues who had that bright eyed, bushy tailed love for their profession, losing their light more so after the pandemic.
00;56;08;06 – 00;56;41;21
Dr. Mona
And I don’t know what the answer is to that, besides maybe getting the the white shirts and business coats out of the decision making for health care systems, maybe that, but it is a hard reality. And that makes me so sad because I think we have so much to give. I think my colleagues that I see, and knowing how I am as a pediatrician and how much more I could do, and knowing that there’s hundreds and thousands of doctors out there, pediatricians, family medicine doctors who would love to do the same but can’t because they have to see patients very quickly because otherwise they can’t make the overhead.
00;56;41;25 – 00;57;06;20
Dr. Mona
Because of reimbursements. Getting lower is the huge reality that we’re facing. And I I’m sad, like it is very sad because people don’t realize that doctors are getting pay cuts around the country. I have not seen a salary increase in seven years. My husband is getting a pay cut as an ER doctor and it’s a sad reality that I we talk about, but we don’t talk a lot about a lot on line because when we start talking about that, well, why do doctors need to make so much money?
00;57;06;22 – 00;57;22;28
Dr. Mona
Well, we don’t even make so much money. You know who makes more money, Mark Hyman, you know, makes more money. Casey means Kaylee means Robert Kennedy Jr. I could do all of that, but we don’t because we don’t like being physicians, you know? But it’s not fair to have to not get a pay raise when the economy shit.
00;57;23;02 – 00;57;41;05
Dr. Mona
Right. And like any job, right, like any job, I would want anyone to feel valued in, physicians are not feeling valued. And that is very scary to the landscape. And that is just going to increase wellness. The predatory wellness industry. Like I love that term that you put in, just because it is predatory wellness. It’s not just wellness.
00;57;41;05 – 00;58;01;13
Dr. Mona
I think everyone, like you said, wants the wellness there. Yeah, yeah. And just how how can consumers of information, whether it’s online, whether it’s, you know, wherever they’re getting their information from, how can they make sense of these conflicting messages from movements like the make America Healthy Again science? Like, how can they approach this and know what’s right and what’s wrong?
00;58;01;13 – 00;58;03;15
Dr. Mona
What do you what would you say to everyone listening?
00;58;03;17 – 00;58;32;11
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Well, so let me let me tell you, I and I think you saw it. I shifted my content a bit in the last I would say seven, eight months. And the reason is because I saw a huge gap in, people, not, connecting policy to health. Yes. And to to our nutrition environment and to our health. And so what happened was it led to this movement that was, enabling all of this misinformation and all of these, all of these, like, intentional misrepresentations of what was happening.
00;58;32;15 – 00;58;54;06
Dr. Jessica Knurick
So as somebody who’s been studying chronic disease prevention for the last 15 years, it was just very evident to me, that that people didn’t I heard all the time, like, well, this shouldn’t be political or our food environment shouldn’t be political. And, and that was pretty astounding to me. So here is somebody who’s just studied policy and the way that our policy has impacted our food environment.
00;58;54;06 – 00;59;16;05
Dr. Jessica Knurick
So I started kind of trying to help people to just bridge that gap and understand how our policies do impact our food environment and do impact public health outcomes. Because I think it’s really, really important for us to understand that. And I think it helps, us to kind of see through a lot of the B.S. that’s out there, when we realize, like, okay, so let’s let’s take an example.
00;59;16;05 – 00;59;23;01
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Let’s take the, the West Virginia, they just passed the first bill that banned random additives. Did you guys know I have?
00;59;23;01 – 00;59;26;08
Dr. Mona
Not yet. This is why we need each other. Yeah.
00;59;26;10 – 00;59;43;18
Dr. Jessica Knurick
So I think they I think they banned seven food colorings, all artificial food colorings and two preservatives. Right. So that’s what West Virginia did. One of their senators, their state senator, said it was perhaps the most important bill they would ever vote on. In order to improve the health of their state. Now, people have asked me like, what do you think about this?
00;59;43;18 – 01;00;06;19
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Are you pro like these bills that are banning food additives? And I want to I it’s very hard for me to answer that directly. Like without explaining why that’s not the right question and why I can’t answer it, like whether and why it doesn’t matter whether or not I’m pro or against. Yeah. Because if you think about West Virginia, they have the highest obesity rate in the nation, nearly 40% of their their the people who live there are classified as obese.
01;00;06;25 – 01;00;36;28
Dr. Jessica Knurick
They have the highest diabetes mortality rate in the country. They’re in the top seven for heart disease. They’re the worst in that in the nation for overall health care. So you’re just just like think about the state as a whole, right? They’re they’re they lead in drug overdose deaths. So and there’s just so many different things. They rank eighth eighth in the nation I think for food insecurity, which is over 12% higher than that than than the average, the national average and their fourth highest in the country for poverty, which is about 35% higher than the national average.
01;00;37;02 – 01;01;07;12
Dr. Jessica Knurick
So if you think about all those issues and there’s more. Yeah, but that’s just what’s in like my brain. But there’s more. And so if you think about all those issues in West Virginia, a bill to ban artificial food dye out of food is just not what their focus should be on. Right? So so their focus should really be on things like expanding health care, expanding access to fresh fruits and vegetables, you know, helping people to get to get access to these things and actual policies that are going to improve health outcomes.
01;01;07;12 – 01;01;24;25
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And this is just not this is a distraction. And that’s what a lot of these bills that are coming out, which are these like bans on food additives there are to distract from policies that would actually improve our food environments and our public health. So what are some of those policies that can improve our food environment? So let’s just focus on our food environment.
01;01;24;28 – 01;01;47;27
Dr. Jessica Knurick
We can look at our agricultural subsidies, less than 1% of our agricultural subsidies, which are payments to farmers to decrease the cost of crops. Right. Less than 1% go to fruits and vegetables, go to produce. But our government tells us to make half our plate fruits and vegetables. So what we’re advising people to do is in direct opposition to what we’re actually enabling through policy action and and from agricultural subsidies.
01;01;47;27 – 01;02;05;04
Dr. Jessica Knurick
We subsidize a lot of corn, wheat and soy. That’s basically where it goes. And ironically enough, that doesn’t even really go to human feed. It goes to animal agriculture and it goes to fuel a lot of it. Some of it goes to, humans, and most of that goes into ultra processed foods, because that’s really the basis of ultra processed foods.
01;02;05;04 – 01;02;28;04
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And so we’re artificially making these ultra processed foods, nutrient void, ultra processed foods, lowering cost and making fresh fruits and vegetables higher in cost. And those are policy decisions, right? We can change that through policy. You brought up mona, I think marketing. Right. And how how marketing disproportionately affects low income people and children. Right. And so putting regulations on marketing, is a policy decision, right?
01;02;28;04 – 01;02;58;19
Dr. Jessica Knurick
We need to do that through policy. Investing in moderate agriculture. Those are policy decisions. And like food science advancements are policy decisions. Those are all could like improve our food environment. And it’s how our policy has impacted our food. Right now, our food environment is about 70% ultra processed food. Why is that? It’s because for decades now, ever since the 80s, going back to the Reagan administration, we have basically enabled corporations to prioritize profits over public health and so what does our food environment look like?
01;02;58;19 – 01;03;19;03
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Our food environment looks like in a food environment that is really beneficial for corporations to make as much money as possible and doesn’t really care about people’s health and the food. We’ve decimated local food systems by putting putting our efforts into, kind of big agribusiness, which started in the Reagan administration. And, and kind of enabling these big agribusiness.
01;03;19;03 – 01;03;34;24
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And we took away local food systems. And so now we have a lot of food deserts in our country, and we have areas in this country which you talked about, you know, where they don’t have access to fresh fruits and vegetables. So they go to maybe a gas station to get some foods. And they’re really far from, a grocery store.
01;03;34;26 – 01;04;02;12
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And so all of those things have impacted our food environment. And we don’t we’re not kind of like putting those things together. How the policy is impacting, our food and then our overall health. And there’s, there’s a bunch of different aspects of health to not just food, but that’s specifically to the food environment. And so I think it’s really important for people to realize that a lot of these kind of bills that are coming out are distractions because of a party that doesn’t want to prioritize public health initiatives that actually could improve our health.
01;04;02;12 – 01;04;16;07
Dr. Mona
I love that you touched upon those. I mean, thank you so much. I know that’s part of the list you probably had, and I think that is exactly right. On to what what I see even more so, I mean, the agricultural subsidies that you mentioned, and then modern agriculture as well. But it is it is a huge issue.
01;04;16;07 – 01;04;32;09
Dr. Mona
And Nini, I know you have data or you would have some data or some knowledge into understanding the influence of systemic issues, such as socioeconomic status on health disparities. Right? Obviously, this is not something we’re just seeing or seeing. This is actually in data that we have, over many years.
01;04;32;16 – 01;04;50;06
Nini Munoz
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and I think health, justice pointed it out. Right. You really see, like, if you were to take a look at the maps, right, for heart disease and obesity, it really does follow that state white pattern where you do see more incidence and prevalence. In the south eastern, you know, us, which is directly tied to poverty.
01;04;50;06 – 01;05;15;18
Nini Munoz
And as I mentioned before, I think the statistic is like your 3.7 times more likely to have multiple chronic illnesses if, you’re in a household, that makes less than $25,000 a year relative to 75,000, right? So we have like those health disparities. Yeah. And it’s just it’s it’s it’s extremely prevalent. But and the other thing, to just a point, because I really love what she’s done bringing in policy.
01;05;15;23 – 01;05;35;00
Nini Munoz
Yeah. And, and I think it was really needed and then people don’t understand also and this is, this is really shaped by my experience coming from Colombia, where so many systems were privatized and I grew up without electricity. I think every day I was doing my homework by candlelight at 6 p.m., because they would just shut out power.
01;05;35;03 – 01;06;06;16
Nini Munoz
But yeah. So I think individuals really forget, you know, history is easily forgotten, right? People really tend to not account for the fact that a lot of the regulatory framework that we do have from, like, you know, banning wet paint, right. You know, like the warnings for tobacco, you know, the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906, that regulatory framework was in place, was put in place because there were issues, you know, people were dying, you know, companies couldn’t self-regulate.
01;06;06;16 – 01;06;28;09
Nini Munoz
And and even like in aviation, we see it. I mean, you take a look at it like, you know, the aviation industry has a flawless record when it comes to, you know, transportation statistics. Like, I always remind people that you would have to fly for like over 300,000 years consecutively to be involved in a fatal airplane accident. That’s how safe it is, right.
01;06;28;11 – 01;06;48;00
Nini Munoz
And and the reason that happens, you know, because I do we do some of the work that I do is in this industry is because every time there’s an incident, you do what the movement is not doing. Right. We take a look at a systems wide failure. We we don’t look at one isolate at risk. We don’t blink.
01;06;48;00 – 01;07;08;26
Nini Munoz
If we blink, a pilot, every time the planes, we continue to fall out of the sky. Right. Because we have to account for pilot error, we have to account for the fact that this person, when faced with, you know, like, you know, a malfunctioning system is going to react a certain way. So we built a redundancy. And so we take a systems wide approach to correct for every single one of those systems.
01;07;08;28 – 01;07;31;08
Nini Munoz
But and then we, we turn that into a new framework that now every, you know, new like when, when airlines train their pilots, they receive those briefings and they, they correct for it. So it’s like self-correcting, right. And with each failure mode there’s new learning that gets incorporated. And that’s where it becomes better and better and better. And we’re statistics are just impeccable.
01;07;31;11 – 01;07;56;00
Nini Munoz
To begin with. And you’ve seen a huge decline since like the 19, you know, the 1950s till now. Right. It’s like you’re safer up in the sky, right? Yeah. That at any point. And it’s precisely because of that we do the complete opposite is systems wide, systems wide implementation of solutions, which is what I think, you know, everything that they’re doing now could borrow from like, you know, the aviation industry if they try not to gut the FAA.
01;07;56;02 – 01;08;18;25
Dr. Mona
I know. Yeah. That’s the other thing is like, I feel like everything that anytime we like okay progress and like a policy or like why like but how is this what we want to do, right? I mean, you already talked about a little bit of policy. Just about that. I yeah, I completely agree with that. And so I wanted to kind of turn back again to what Jess had mentioned at the beginning about, like what in a dream world, what we would envision.
01;08;18;25 – 01;08;33;20
Dr. Mona
I know, Jess, you already mentioned, obviously expanding health care access, agricultural subsidies, marketing, modern agriculture. What else would you add? And then I’m going to throw it to Nini. If she in an ideal world, what would be better for make truly making America healthier again?
01;08;33;23 – 01;08;48;08
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Sure. So let’s think about what can help to make people healthy. And you have to think about it, about it on an individual level and then a systemic level. Right? So if I’m working with you one on one as a dietitian, right. And you want to come see me and or are you going to chat and help to make you healthier?
01;08;48;08 – 01;09;08;21
Dr. Jessica Knurick
We’re going to talk about diet and nutrition. We’re going to talk about getting more whole foods, right, getting more fiber because 90% of Americans don’t meat, fiber or vegetable guidelines. Right? So you’re probably in that 90%. So we’re going to try to help you get get more vegetable and fiber, try to maybe reduce your added sugars, your ultra processed foods, your alcohol that we’ll talk about your physical activity 80% of Americans don’t meet.
01;09;08;21 – 01;09;24;24
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Physical activity guidelines will try to get you moving. Right. We’ll talk about your stress and your mental health and your sleep. Are you getting, you know, 7 to 8 or 8 to 9? I don’t even know what the recommendation is more than most people are getting. Are you getting that much sleep? Right. But then you have to think on a systemic level.
01;09;24;26 – 01;09;46;10
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Yeah. So and that’s and I think people miss that. So from a public health perspective, we think on a systemic level like like many just talked about. Right. We don’t just tell you, okay, go eat more fruits and vegetables. We think about why are 90% of Americans not meeting vegetables and fiber guidelines. Why? Right. And so then okay, what are those things agricultural subsidies like?
01;09;46;10 – 01;10;06;27
Dr. Jessica Knurick
We talked about addressing food deserts because the vast majority of people who aren’t meeting those guidelines are also people who are living in food deserts and in poverty. So talking about economic instability, because that is a huge factor in getting access to fruits and vegetables. We talk about marketing and advertisement, particularly to children and low income people and putting regulations on these corporations.
01;10;06;29 – 01;10;27;18
Dr. Jessica Knurick
By the way, we talk about things like Citizens United, which has allowed unlimited money in politics, which has allowed politicians to basically be bought, not, I mean, for lack of a better term, right, by a lot of these corporations, so that they vote in favor of these corporations and against public health measures. So those are systemically we talk about food nutrition policy.
01;10;27;24 – 01;10;50;16
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Right. So school or school nutrition policy, and trying to improve school nutrition. And we don’t just say, you know, we need to improve school lunches by, you know, offering more fruits and vegetables. Well, like, how are we going to do that? Because the national reimbursement rate is $4.01 for the school nutrition program. So if we want to improve the food that’s in the school nutrition program, you can’t just put a bunch of regulations.
01;10;50;16 – 01;11;06;06
Dr. Jessica Knurick
You have to actually invest in your school nutrition program. Right? So so that’s kind of like a systemic. Then you think about like physical activity. Right. So getting people to move more, well, why don’t we move as much as maybe they do in Europe. We have a we have an entire country that’s built for cars for the automobile industry.
01;11;06;12 – 01;11;28;04
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Our cities and towns aren’t walkable and bikeable, many of them. So you have to invest in infrastructure and urban design. That’s called the built environment and public health. And, and investing in those types of things, transportation policies, getting more, public transportation in our cities, in our towns, and, and helping with that, investing in like, school systems, like, we have defunded recess programs at school.
01;11;28;09 – 01;11;37;11
Dr. Jessica Knurick
So thinking about like, giving our children more physically active and investing in those, like recess programs so that they’re out and able to, like, run around, you know, then you I mean.
01;11;37;11 – 01;11;55;29
Dr. Mona
Japan does it, right. We talk about Japan like, oh, Sony does it. You know, it’s crazy that so much of this exists. Like we see models in other countries, and yet we act like it’s not doable because we don’t want to do it because there’s not as we feel like there’s not as much money in it from the governments as, or that there’s not as much incentive to do it when there is.
01;11;56;05 – 01;12;07;19
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Well, so much of what I’m talking about is done in Europe is, is, you know, it’s all these things and you want to talk about, like the ingredients that are used in Europe versus here, as if that’s the big moving factor, you know.
01;12;07;19 – 01;12;08;00
Nini Munoz
Right.
01;12;08;00 – 01;12;38;23
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And the health disparities that we’re seeing, you know, and I could go on and on. There’s so many policies. There’s there’s even policies that address stress and mental health, and, and sleep, you know, and economic instability, by the way, is a big thing for all of these little buckets I’m talking about. But each one of those buckets that you would think about, you know, if you were working with a health coach or something, one on one, all these buckets that they would be addressing at an individual level, there are systemic, policy based decisions that go into the accessibility of those things for people.
01;12;38;23 – 01;13;03;27
Dr. Jessica Knurick
So for sleep, for example, we still have a 40 hour workweek, which we could talk about if that. And we have people who are working 50, 60, 70 hours, not just 40 hours. We have people working three, four jobs. Right. And, and in America, because they’re trying to kind of just make ends meet. And so that is not helpful to being able to get 8 to 9 hours of sleep or helpful to somebody’s stress and mental health.
01;13;03;29 – 01;13;23;05
Dr. Jessica Knurick
So all of those things are kind of interrelated and interconnected. And, and these are all evidence based things. I’m talking about. There’s data on all of these things. It’s not just me with my like, I don’t know, pie in the sky like values that I think are helpful. Like all of this comes from data and show there’s data to show that all of these policies can help improve public health.
01;13;23;07 – 01;13;47;18
Dr. Jessica Knurick
But we historically in this country have not invested in public health because there is not a lot of money in these things. There’s not a lot of money to be made in these prevention things from a short term perspective. And so instead we kind of incentivize corporations and we have, you know, we, we, we invest in things that are going to be profitable for corporations and we don’t invest in public health initiatives.
01;13;47;18 – 01;13;49;28
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And I think that’s that’s our major problem.
01;13;50;01 – 01;14;07;06
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And I love that you went from solo what we’re talking about and the why. Right. That’s literally what every visit ends up being like. What is the barrier here. It’s not it’s not always a personal decision that they can’t get access to outdoor exercise. Right. For my communities, a lot of it is not lack of access to parks, right?
01;14;07;06 – 01;14;22;27
Dr. Mona
I mean, where are they safely going to go to exercise with their child? Where are they safely going to go where they’re not? There’s not going to be a risk of gun violence. And I’m speaking truly, honestly in many cities that I see down here. And so it’s South Florida that there is a safety issue. And so that is all systemic, right?
01;14;22;27 – 01;14;39;18
Dr. Mona
That is all the lack of, you know, having the safe school, safe and safe home environment and then knowing that so many people may rely on on school systems and the meal, the meal plans at schools for a lot of their meals, I don’t think many people realize that, that that is a huge source of where they may even get their meal at all.
01;14;39;23 – 01;14;57;02
Dr. Mona
And so if that is being cut, or if that is being filled with food that is ultra processed, they’re not getting exposed to that. And for me, you know, a lot of the the biggest thing for nutrition also that I find is a lot of more culturally competent nutrition education. Right? We are not the same culture in this country.
01;14;57;02 – 01;15;16;17
Dr. Mona
We are a melting pot of different people. And I think that’s actually sometimes a bad thing, because people forget that people may do things a little bit differently and like, I’ll have families come in and I have a very, you know, very big, island population. So Haitian, Dominican and I, you know, a lot of the food education has been passed down.
01;15;16;17 – 01;15;40;09
Dr. Mona
It’s like, well, what alternatives can you make, right? And having that more culturally competent education, having that sort of discussion with these families for me from a young age is so important. So that we can we can say, well, it doesn’t have to be just that. What are you making? What are some swap outs we can do to make this a more fiber rich, less added sugar, you know, sort of sort of meal for the family because I see that all the time as well.
01;15;40;12 – 01;16;00;09
Dr. Mona
And I want there to be more education. And then when you talk about policies where we think about taking away education departments, which has not happened, I don’t want to say that it’s going to happen, but it makes me just a little, because a lot of those education programs will fund the public school education in a lot of red states.
01;16;00;12 – 01;16;22;07
Dr. Mona
And, you know, because when you don’t have state income taxes, when you don’t have the ability to fund these schools, and you’re not getting any money from the government, you know, I worry again about we’re going to see far more separation in the haves and the have nots in this country, thanks to these policies that really don’t have everyone’s best interest at heart to promote the foundation of education and health.
01;16;22;14 – 01;16;43;24
Nini Munoz
Not only that, like it, we know it. It, health outcomes are directly linked to educational attainment. Yeah. So going back to, you know, what what jazz was saying about policy when we take a look at our education programs, right. Defunding education right is not the way to go. It’s really interesting because I recently saw like this great thread.
01;16;43;24 – 01;17;07;09
Nini Munoz
And somebody was like, well, if you’re feeling bad today, just remember that you you were not you did not fall for billions of dollars in propaganda. Right? Which is true. Why do some individuals not fall for that? Right. And then we get into, you know, what the role of social media in creating these binary ways of thinking and why some people fall for some of these ways of thinking and some people don’t.
01;17;07;09 – 01;17;28;08
Nini Munoz
Right. And then we really see, you know, the, the, the influence of education programs and educational attainment. Right. And then there’s a, there’s almost a straight correlation that, sure, there are outliers, but for the most part, you know, you could really correlate educational outcomes with you know, with making the right decision and of course, and how that plays into your overall health.
01;17;28;11 – 01;17;50;05
Nini Munoz
Like I know, for instance, that I’m not going to be able to, you know, cure. Right? A virus with an antibiotic. Right. Like I know that. Right. But most people don’t seem to understand that. So yeah, I just wanted to add that to just a point, because I’m really huge on like, educational attainment and what we can do to improve communities, but they get more access to quality education.
01;17;50;07 – 01;18;18;07
Dr. Mona
You know, the concerning part, which I want to be very so I’ve lived in Arizona, California, New York, and now I’m in Florida and I you can tell the difference in a public school education. You can tell like when you go to the common store, it doesn’t matter if you are wealthy or not. You can just tell based on that this basic information that I’m talking to you when I talk to patients, and I’m shocked to hear them think certain things and I’m like, we’ll look at the public school education we have here.
01;18;18;13 – 01;18;36;13
Dr. Mona
Like it is not as great as the basic public school education in a lot of states that have good public school systems. And it’s it’s a sad reality. And I worry, you know, because I know these are the foundational things that all communities need, especially when we look at other countries and other health outcomes. They have great health care systems.
01;18;36;13 – 01;18;57;11
Dr. Mona
They have good education. They have early education that’s free and accessible, you know, and when you go back to the thing about stress, just like so many parents are stressed, because not only is housing costs really high right now and it’s not going down, it’s worse than we’ve ever seen it. You also have the stress of so making ends meet when salaries are not even going higher and they can’t even make rent.
01;18;57;18 – 01;19;13;03
Dr. Mona
And then or even just basic needs, right. So they can’t afford the healthier foods because they also can’t afford their house. So what do we want to do here? Like are we going to bring down the rent costs? Are we going to do any subsidies there because the families are going to have to make a point, a decision.
01;19;13;09 – 01;19;33;00
Dr. Mona
And the decision will probably mean taking a cheaper food item that may not be as balanced and nutritious, because if they can’t pay rent, they got to make the they make the cuts somewhere else. And it’s so sad to see this. And, you know, as a pediatrician, when I talk to these families and I’m trying to make these decisions with them, I can’t make them have better resources.
01;19;33;06 – 01;19;50;06
Dr. Mona
That is one thing that’s a barrier for me, right? Because I can give them all the education I want. But we often forget that the resources are lacking for so many of these families. And it’s when I think, what is it? I think 40% of Americans, or I could be wrong with this number. I don’t know if either of you know how many Americans live below the poverty line in America now.
01;19;50;06 – 01;19;53;21
Dr. Mona
I think it’s like 30, 30% or 40. I have to look at the number.
01;19;53;21 – 01;19;55;06
Nini Munoz
But like I would take a look at that number.
01;19;55;06 – 01;20;18;00
Dr. Mona
Yeah. It is it is really sad to see that we are having so much people that are not able to just basically make ends meet, that their health is going to go out the window because they’re stressed and they can’t eat healthier, they can’t get outside. When we all know these things make us healthier than removing seed oils and removing all the things, because that is not the individualized thing that’s going to make everyone healthier.
01;20;18;00 – 01;20;35;24
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And I just think to bring it back to this, like Make America Healthy Again movement, if this movement like and the I mean, what would you say a percentage wise is the rhetoric of like add like seed oils and and food dyes. It’s like almost all of it, right? In terms of like what what they’re talking about in terms of like improving a health.
01;20;35;27 – 01;20;56;22
Dr. Jessica Knurick
If, if that rhetoric was within a movement that was focused on all of the things we’re talking about to improve public health, like I don’t have as much issue with it. Right? So, okay, I mean, the seed oils, I actually do because that literally flies in the face of evidence. But the but the like other additives that I mean really like food dyes are really there as a marketing tool.
01;20;56;27 – 01;21;14;05
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Right? And they’re really in these like these foods for children and all oftentimes those are ultra processed foods. And there is some evidence that if we kind of muted those dyes that children might not be wanting to eat them as much. So we may actually help them to eat less sugar by just them not wanting as many things.
01;21;14;05 – 01;21;33;15
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Right. So so there’s like a nuance conversation that we had about those food dyes. It’s not what they’re saying, which is that they’re like toxic and going to hurt us. But, I think that if it was within this overall context of all of these other things that we’re talking about that are actually going to make a huge impact on public health, I think that’s fine, but it’s not.
01;21;33;18 – 01;22;05;04
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And so it’s it’s really the focus of Make America Healthy instead of and a distraction from all of these other policy positions that, the party that Maha has aligned with has routinely voted against. I mean, that is just that’s just the reality. And and so the the distraction is, okay, don’t look over here, look over here. And as people in public health, you know, they haven’t worked with any public health experts, any nutrition experts, any anyone, who, who actually has been studying this stuff they’ve primarily worked with kind of like wellness influencers overall.
01;22;05;06 – 01;22;24;17
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And so that that is kind of our biggest issue is that it’s not going those things aren’t going these bills that are coming out to like, ban random ingredients, they’re not going to improve public health. And so we and we’re going to stay focused on that so that there’s no pressure put on our politicians to support all of this other legislation that could actually improve our health.
01;22;24;17 – 01;22;43;08
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And so I think that’s really the biggest message I have of this, of this movement, is that we we need to think we all want a healthier country. We all want our health, our children to be healthy. And so, like, what are the Evidence-Based Ways to do that versus like the sensational distractions? And I think that’s really important to point out.
01;22;43;16 – 01;22;54;15
Dr. Mona
I completely agree with that. And by the way, 11% is the national average for below the poverty line, but it can range from anywhere to 5% in certain states to about 25% in certain states.
01;22;54;15 – 01;22;56;09
Nini Munoz
So this year, the disparities.
01;22;56;09 – 01;23;02;05
Dr. Mona
Yes, exactly. But I wanted to clarify that because facts and numbers are important. And so,
01;23;02;07 – 01;23;03;07
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Still are.
01;23;03;09 – 01;23;20;26
Dr. Mona
Yes, they still are. Now, you know, I, I want to bring back the first question that I had to kind of wrap up is that, you know, some people might hear this conversation, think we’re skeptics, like, why wouldn’t we want higher health standards, better food policies, and more curiosity about what’s making people sick? But I hope by the end of this conversation, you have realized that we all want that.
01;23;20;29 – 01;23;43;11
Dr. Mona
How would you say that someone can manage healthy skepticism with ensuring that we’re not falling into this fear based, anti-science narrative, like, because, again, I think it’s important that we can question things, but where is that sort of balance and saying, what is questioning versus what is actually just now misinformation? And, you know, if you have a, you know, how can people as consumers listening and on social balance all this.
01;23;43;11 – 01;24;03;06
Nini Munoz
Information at the beginning of the pandemic, right, people were really interested in the information of Covid 19 because it was directly impacting population outcomes at the individual level. At the population level, hospitals were, you know, flooded with patients. People were, you know, dying. People were getting lost. Parents couldn’t send kids to school. That was a big one.
01;24;03;06 – 01;24;22;15
Nini Munoz
I wasn’t I was not a parent back then. And now I’m like, Holy cow, that would have been really hard. So people were really interested in science, and I think that was an opportunity where you, we, you saw a lot of the science communicators come out of the woodwork, right, to explain this concept and just made a fantastic post the other day exactly about that, which I really love too.
01;24;22;15 – 01;24;47;03
Nini Munoz
She said. This is an opportunity to really also bring people in, and and the framework that I like to use revolves around how do we merge this intellectual curiosity? Right. But what’s the choreography as opposed to healthy skepticism with intellectual humility? Right. And that’s where you really get into like, you know, you want to work with other people that are more experienced, you know, professors of rhetoric and persuasion.
01;24;47;03 – 01;25;08;19
Nini Munoz
And the framework that I try to advance is more about because these are the right questions to ask, because these are valid questions and really teaching them. I do more on the data facts side of things. So I will teach people like, okay, what is the likelihood that you could repeat that study? Why or why not? Does this population represent the rest of the population?
01;25;08;19 – 01;25;32;18
Nini Munoz
Why or why not? And that way I kind of kind of I don’t want to, you know, you don’t want to squash out the question, but you want them to help you. You want to guide people and help them engage in a way that they are still curious, but also acknowledging the limitations of their own understanding. And so I think it will be an opportunity, for many of us, I, you know, and agree with all these points made.
01;25;32;18 – 01;26;00;23
Nini Munoz
You know, unfortunately, science is behind a paywall. A lot of the science, I mean, the science is really complex. Like, I, I, I struggle reading some papers on, like, immunology. I’m like, oh, like, what does that mean? Like, I, I’m like, I’m on threads with other communicators, like, what does this mean? And so, so I think making the information more accessible, but also, you know, really creating an environment where you bring in that intellectual curiosity because it’s not healthy.
01;26;00;28 – 01;26;20;15
Nini Munoz
It’s not healthy to squash that out. You know, that’s what I consider to be anti-intellectualism at that point when you’re telling individuals, oh, no, don’t read that. You’re not going to understand that. And I’m like, that’s so impractical. What are you going to do? Stop it? Like, they’re going to get their information from somewhere, right? And you want them to be a well, but it’s sort so you really want to invite people.
01;26;20;15 – 01;26;41;24
Nini Munoz
And granted, you’re always going to get people that are not engaging in that faith, people that are just really there to bully, troll, try to, you know, destroy your credibility. Like that’s always going to be there. But for most individuals, right. Those are allowed minority. But most individuals really do want to, you know, ask these questions and get answers and want nuanced answers.
01;26;41;24 – 01;27;07;11
Nini Munoz
And I think our role is to try to provide a space for that. And it’s very hard because as we kind of re-emphasize here, we are in a social media platform that really, you know, favors binary, you know, ways of thinking, right? This or that, right, and emotional ways of thinking. But that’s like the path that I would want to continue on is just trying to engage.
01;27;07;13 – 01;27;18;21
Nini Munoz
And of course, my my perspective is the data science one. It’s like, okay, let’s ask questions about this data. But I think we can all do that. And I you know, I’ve seen just, just grow so much and I’m so happy because.
01;27;18;21 – 01;27;19;10
Dr. Mona
You.
01;27;19;13 – 01;27;41;08
Nini Munoz
Bring such a valuable perspective. I’m always like the I’m in her. I’m like, oh my God, this is outside exciting because I really am because it’s such a valuable perspective. Right? We all have a different perspective, and it’s so important to really, you know, people are interested in science. Yeah. That’s great. And sometimes it takes these movements to get people interested in science and help.
01;27;41;10 – 01;27;43;19
Nini Munoz
And I think that we get to take advantage of that.
01;27;43;21 – 01;27;47;28
Dr. Mona
And I think that’s what this conversation did. Just as you want to add one more thing about like a final message.
01;27;48;02 – 01;28;11;15
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Yeah, I’ll just add I would echo everything that Nina’s saying, and I’ve found success. In the last you know, half a year. I think that it’s really important to understand that, like, we, we want people to have a healthy skepticism, right? Like, that’s why we got into these fields. Like, I got into science and, like, wanting to go get my PhD because I had all these questions that I wanted to answer.
01;28;11;17 – 01;28;34;01
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And so, so, like, we should we should welcome that, and not do these appeals to authority. And I think where my successes come from is that people are interested in these topics right now, like, more so than ever. And, and just like a plain explanation where you’re providing actual data, you’re providing actual evidence for things showing, like, here’s why here is all the evidence, you know, or some of the evidence at least.
01;28;34;04 – 01;28;57;23
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And then also, here’s what to look for for people misleading you. Right. So so it helps people be like, propaganda proof. Right. So like, if someone’s just, like, telling you like, a really seems inflammatory, maybe it’s not. Maybe it’s real, but if it seems inflammatory and they provide absolutely no evidence for that, then that’s probably somebody misleading you, right?
01;28;57;23 – 01;29;21;23
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Because if it’s inflammatory generally for me, like if it seems like too wild to be true, like I will bring even more evidence than than if I if it was just something that would be like welcome and accepted. And so, so helping people to like, know what to look for on, on the social media space, I think can be really, really helpful and then like allow them to ask questions like, I love when people ask me questions.
01;29;21;28 – 01;29;40;02
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And, you know, I think that’s a big red flag too, because there’s an account. I’m not going to call them out, but there is an account online that a lot of people are always DMing me about. And I, you know, I didn’t know much about the account. And so they they provided some evidence of like lead and food and, and then compared it to something that I didn’t think was an appropriate comparison.
01;29;40;04 – 01;30;00;08
Dr. Jessica Knurick
And I sent them a very nice message, like in their comment section and asked them for clarity. And they did not respond to me. Well, they did not answer my question. They responded really, really upset about about it, made a bunch of like, posts about me and then blocked me. And so I don’t think that’s really the healthy way to go about helping people to understand things.
01;30;00;08 – 01;30;21;25
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Right. So if, if people ask me questions like, and they’re genuine questions, I always welcome them. And so if somebody if you ask somebody a question on social media and they respond in a really like aggressive or derogatory way, like that’s tends to be a red flag to that that person’s not not genuinely spreading information. So I, I think just helping people find those things to, to look for.
01;30;21;27 – 01;30;45;11
Dr. Mona
And I think that goes on both sides to kind of bridge both of your, your responses. Right. Like in the pandemic, there was a lot of science communication and a lot of it comes from us like science communicators too. Like how are we responding? Not only the people who may be spreading misinformation, but are we using fear based messaging and like creating fear versus like, you know, even with the measles outbreak right now, I think there is a balance of like, hey, here’s the controllable things that we can do.
01;30;45;12 – 01;31;01;05
Dr. Mona
You’re not going to you’re not going to die tomorrow, like, I promise. Like, you know, there’s more of the sort of what can we do to reduce risk? What can we do to protect the kid for the age of the child is versus fear. Fear of fear, fear, fear. So that comes on a communicator side. And I think that builds trust as well.
01;31;01;08 – 01;31;12;19
Dr. Mona
So that we have here’s what we would do. Data to support, like you said. And then have the questions open and then also create some boundaries if there is some trolling and, you know, anger because there is going to be that. But I love.
01;31;12;20 – 01;31;13;13
Dr. Jessica Knurick
A genuine.
01;31;13;13 – 01;31;31;09
Dr. Mona
Question. Yes, exactly. Because sometimes I’m like, okay, now we’re falling down deep into this hole of, personal attacks, and we didn’t even go there. So, but that is something that I’ve learned from the pandemic, and I will be honest, that when I started educating on the pandemic, I used to be very well, this is what it is.
01;31;31;09 – 01;31;52;11
Dr. Mona
And the pandemic really changed me and how I communicate not only online, but also in my office. And I’m grateful for that experience, although it was very traumatizing, to be honest. The pandemic was. But yes, I think that’s going to be a huge shift. And I think that’s how we’re going to keep the trust, regain the trust, but also provide that balance, nuance, education that people should have.
01;31;52;11 – 01;31;58;09
Dr. Mona
And I love intellectual curiosity as well, like both of you. And I’m glad that we could powwow today.
01;31;58;11 – 01;31;58;20
Nini Munoz
Yeah.
01;31;58;20 – 01;31;59;10
Dr. Mona
Thank you.
01;31;59;13 – 01;32;00;23
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Thank you for having us. No.
01;32;00;23 – 01;32;08;13
Dr. Mona
Where can, just where can people go to stay connected with you? I’m sure both, our listeners know who you are, but, where can they go to follow you along?
01;32;08;15 – 01;32;18;03
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Well, my biggest platforms are Instagram and Substack, and so I am there on both of those platforms. I write a newsletter twice a week, and, I’m on Instagram pretty much every day.
01;32;18;05 – 01;32;19;00
Dr. Mona
Handle. So your.
01;32;19;00 – 01;32;22;20
Dr. Jessica Knurick
Handle again? Yeah. Yeah. Doctor. Dr. Jessica merrick.
01;32;22;22 – 01;32;25;28
Dr. Mona
Awesome. And, Nini, what about you? Where can people go to stay connected with you?
01;32;25;29 – 01;32;47;18
Nini Munoz
Same platforms. You know, I’m on, I Instagram is my main platform, Substack, you know, less frequent, maybe like once a week or every other week. You know, I, I try to do, like, data driven, you know, vlogs, which takes me a little bit to compile all the data. But I am at, at Meany and the bring, but mostly on Instagram.
01;32;47;21 – 01;33;06;29
Dr. Mona
Awesome. I will be tagging both of them on this on the show notes. Please follow them along. They give great education not only during health outbreaks and things like that, but just in general. These are amazing follows that I think you should both have, which is why I’m glad that they could come on the show. And this conversation highlights just how complex health really is.
01;33;06;29 – 01;33;26;24
Dr. Mona
You know, real health requires looking at both personal choices and systemic barriers, which is why I want to just add on to talk about that and how we can get curious about our health better standards, but not dismiss science and the advancements that we have. So huge thank you to both of you.
01;33;26;27 – 01;33;48;22
Dr. Mona
This episode was everything. It was a little longer than my normal episodes, but it was so needed we could have chatted for a longer time on public health policy, health care reform, education reform, nutrition education so much that we unpacked with all of our expertise. And I know you probably enjoyed it, too, and it probably challenged the way you think about health in America.
01;33;48;24 – 01;34;14;19
Dr. Mona
Or maybe it made you nod along. Here’s the reality health is not as simple as cutting out seed oils, red dyes, or fluoride. Hyper focusing on these scapegoats distracts us from the bigger issues like access to health care, food security, public health policy and the real systemic changes needed to improve health outcomes for everyone. Instead of fearmongering over ingredients, we should be focusing on real, evidence based solutions that make a measurable impact.
01;34;14;19 – 01;34;44;02
Dr. Mona
But instead we see time, money, and energy wasted, like doubling down on vaccine studies we already have mountains of data on. And if we’re serious about making America healthy, we can’t ignore one of the most powerful determinants of health education a strong public education system is the foundation of a healthier society. When people have access to quality education, they have the tools to make informed decisions about their health, advocate for better policies, and break cycles of poverty that contribute to poor health outcomes.
01;34;44;04 – 01;35;04;13
Dr. Mona
The more we fixate on misplaced fears, the more we ignore the policies and research that could actually improve public health. Investing in better schools, health care access and community based health initiatives would do far more for America’s health, and banning artificial dyes ever could. If there’s one thing I want you to take away from this episode, it’s this being pro health isn’t about chasing the latest social media trend.
01;35;04;13 – 01;35;29;07
Dr. Mona
It’s about trusting science, the process of science, supporting prevention, strengthening our education and health care systems, and demanding real solutions that help everyone, not just the privileged. Let’s push for policies that matter. Let’s invest in education, health care and public health initiatives that actually reduce chronic disease. Let’s make sure science leads the conversation and not fear. If this episode got you thinking, share it.
01;35;29;07 – 01;35;52;06
Dr. Mona
Tag us at the PedsDocTalk podcast, at PedsDocTalk at Nini and the brain, and at Doctor Jessica Knurick, and keep the conversation going by sharing this episode. Subscribe, download and leave a review because you never know who in your network may need this conversation. Until next time, stay curious, stay informed, and I’ll catch you all next time for our next conversation.
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All information presented on this blog, my Instagram, and my podcast is for educational purposes and should not be taken as personal medical advice. These platforms are to educate and should not replace the medical judgment of a licensed healthcare provider who is evaluating a patient.
It is the responsibility of the guardian to seek appropriate medical attention when they are concerned about their child.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinions of my employer or hospitals I may be affiliated with.
