Many times in parenting, there won’t be a course or article that covers every parenting situation or decision you find yourself in. I LOVE getting to chat with parents from the PedsDocTalk community on these nuanced topics. Today. I welcome Allyson who wants to sleep train her 4-month-old, but the infant will eventually room-share with a 3 year old. We discuss:

• Things to consider when making parenting decisions and choices
• Things to consider when sleep-training an infant who may end up room-sharing with a toddler
• How to prep the toddler for this transition

If you are a parent and want to join me on the podcast, join our email list where we send out our guest form for you to fill out.

00;00;00;00 – 00;00;23;05

Allyson

I have a four month old baby and I have a three year old, and my three year old’s been trained since he was seven months old. So I want to sleep train my four month old. However, they have to share a room, so I’m just not sure what my options are or the best practice for sleep training. An infant that will share room with a toddler.

 

00;00;23;07 – 00;00;50;11

Dr. Mona

Hello and welcome back to the show! I am Doctor Mona and I am always so happy to have you all tune in each and every week. This podcast continues to grow because of you, your reviews and ratings and it means so much to me. As I’ve already announced, I am expecting baby number two, so I am recording so many episodes to prepare for when I am enjoying postpartum time, so I cannot wait to release these episodes for you.

 

00;00;50;16 – 00;01;10;07

Dr. Mona

Make sure you get on our newsletter if you have a question for me. And that’s how we send out the form to invite parents on this podcast. On this episode, I welcome Alison, a mom from the PedsDocTalk community, and she wanted to talk about a concern she had that she couldn’t find on any of the paid resources she bought or online.

 

00;01;10;10 – 00;01;33;26

Dr. Mona

She wanted to know what she does when she has to sleep. Train a younger sibling in the same room as an older toddler who’s three years old. A very good question, one that I have approached with many families across my training and experience. So I wanted to share that with you. So make sure you tune in for the entire conversation.

 

00;01;33;28 – 00;01;41;00

Dr. Mona

Hey Alison, thank you so much for joining me on today’s episode. So tell me what is on your mind today as a mom?

 

00;01;41;02 – 00;02;04;03

Allyson

Hi, doctor. Mona. Thank you so much for having me. So on my mind is I have a four month old baby and I have a three year old, and my three year old’s been changed since she was seven months old. So I want to sleep train my four month old. However, they have to share a room, so I’m just not sure what my options are or the best practice for sleep training.

 

00;02;04;03 – 00;02;06;15

Allyson

An infant that will share room with a toddler.

 

00;02;06;18 – 00;02;25;22

Dr. Mona

Oh, very good question and a nuanced question, which I think a lot of parents may not ever find themselves in. But you may like I relate to this so much because yes, I respect that you all chose to sleep train. And the younger one, we’ll talk about what method you chose for the older but the younger one waking up the older one vice versa.

 

00;02;25;22 – 00;02;28;27

Dr. Mona

I get that that’s a reality that you didn’t have to deal with with your three year old.

 

00;02;28;29 – 00;02;30;03

Allyson

Right?

 

00;02;30;05 – 00;02;34;22

Dr. Mona

So, just to kind of ask, you’re choosing to share because of housing set up, right?

 

00;02;34;25 – 00;02;43;12

Allyson

Right. So we currently have a two bedroom and we want to, of course, get a bigger house, but we live in California where the market is. I’m a little bit stressful right now.

 

00;02;43;14 – 00;02;45;02

Dr. Mona

I understand.

 

00;02;45;04 – 00;02;49;09

Allyson

They can have their own room. Then it wouldn’t be easy. But for now, we just don’t have that option.

 

00;02;49;12 – 00;03;13;11

Dr. Mona

Well, thanks for bringing that up because I think it’s important for people. Sometimes people don’t understand situations like they’re like, well, why don’t you get a house or why don’t you do this? It’s like, well, sometimes we don’t have an alternative and it doesn’t mean it’s forever. And I relate to that too. An example I like to use is I have some families who come into my office who live in like three story townhouses with small children and having a lot of stairs and a house with small kids.

 

00;03;13;12 – 00;03;36;12

Dr. Mona

Some people are like, I would never, but that’s what’s available, right? So your situation is that you have a two bedroom and you can make this work. I like to remind my listeners that I used to practice in New York City, where everybody lived in like two room, maybe three room homes and multiple children. And this is possible, but we have to talk about some things to consider for rooming all of that, which we’ll get into.

 

00;03;36;14 – 00;03;46;29

Dr. Mona

So with your older daughter, correct. Is the oldest daughter? Yes. Yes. You said she sleeps around at seven months and you had to do some actual training. You did like the cry method, I understand.

 

00;03;47;02 – 00;04;03;03

Allyson

Yes. I purchased one of the sleep training online courses and I also had a book. And then we did do the cried out, but in intervals, but longer intervals because it was really hard for me. So I kind of put the headphones in and try to like do something else and then like really go back in when she needed me.

 

00;04;03;06 – 00;04;15;26

Dr. Mona

Wonderful. Well, I like to hear what you did. And do you plan on doing a similar strategy for your younger when it’s time? Yes. Okay. And right now your younger child is four months old. What’s the longest stretch of sleep that you’re seeing at night? Most nights.

 

00;04;15;26 – 00;04;27;12

Allyson

Most nights you can sleep from about nine to like 5 or 6. Sometimes a little longer, sometimes a little shorter. But on average, that is, is nighttime routine.

 

00;04;27;15 – 00;04;45;23

Dr. Mona

Okay, that’s actually a really decent stretch for a four month old. I think that’s great. And this episode is not going over how to sleep train in terms of like, the methods I have that in my course, everyone is listening or I have other podcasts that have little bits here and there, but there’s something if you want the different methods available, you can listen to that or get that resource.

 

00;04;45;28 – 00;04;48;20

Dr. Mona

But we’re chatting about the room sharing aspect.

 

00;04;48;20 – 00;05;02;18

Allyson

Yes, because I looked back on my sleep training course that I purchased and they don’t talk about this at all. They say like with multiples, but meaning twins, but not with people of different ages and looking online. I can’t really find that much information about it.

 

00;05;02;21 – 00;05;23;10

Dr. Mona

Yeah, and I think it’s one of those topics in parenting that people don’t really have online. Like I’ve always said that with parenting, it’s impossible to create one resource, like whether it’s a paid resource or a podcast or whatever, that talks about every nuance subject in parenting. So that’s why I love having you all come on the show, because we get to talk about these little moments.

 

00;05;23;13 – 00;05;38;17

Dr. Mona

This is actually a big deal for us because we don’t know what to do. And I never read about it. So I love that we’re having this conversation. So we have your three year old also is sleeping through the night, which means that there’s no intervention needed. She’ll toss and turn and go back on their own. You’re not having to go in, right?

 

00;05;38;19 – 00;05;58;13

Dr. Mona

Awesome. Okay, good. Because if someone’s listening to this and you have a child who’s older, and then you’re trying to think about sleep training, a younger if you’re older is not sleeping. This is not going to work. What I’m talking about, that’s a whole different conversation. You would want to approach training or, you know, getting your older child to sleep and then possibly focusing on the younger.

 

00;05;58;18 – 00;06;33;02

Dr. Mona

But in this situation with Allison, we have a three year old who sleeps. What time does she go to bed? 830 okay, perfect. So between 7 to 9 is my happy spot for that age. Excellent. So we have a kid who’s sleeping, which is great. So now for the younger ones, some thoughts to consider. Because if you’re using any method, whether it’s a more parent present method, a method that allows some crying and then we’re going in whatever method we’re choosing, there is going to be some tears and pausing or some, you know, crying that we’re doing and maybe in some methods a little bit more like we’re discussing which of what you did with

 

00;06;33;02 – 00;06;52;23

Dr. Mona

your daughter. So there is a reality that room sharing during the actual training process is not really feasible when we’re trying to get that four month old in those, you know, whether it’s a few days to a week or so, right? Sometimes it can take up to about a week to two weeks. How long did it take you remember to train your three year old?

 

00;06;52;26 – 00;06;55;22

Allyson

I think seven months, like four days. Okay.

 

00;06;55;29 – 00;07;18;28

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And I want to normalize for everyone listening that the range of being able to successfully train. And I’m putting that in air quotes successfully train is when a child is able to sleep 10 to 12 hours without any intervention. So they go down and they sleep and you don’t see them until the morning, because even if they wake up between sleep cycles, they’re putting themselves back down.

 

00;07;18;28 – 00;07;40;22

Dr. Mona

There’s no feedings happening, there’s no rocking happening. It’s all independent sleep. That’s what we define as sleep trained okay. And so it’s kind of important to kind of know the method that you did. And also how many days that for some children it can take three days, which is the lowest range that I see. For some children it can take two weeks.

 

00;07;40;22 – 00;07;56;02

Dr. Mona

I want to really normalize that. I can’t predict. Even if you choose a method that’s right for your son, I can’t guarantee is this going to take three days or two weeks? But I like to put two weeks in our mindset, so we’re not panicking when it’s taking less and really respecting the fact that I’m going to stay consistent.

 

00;07;56;09 – 00;08;17;05

Dr. Mona

Maybe it’ll be 3 or 4 days, but what are we going to do? So an option I have for you, because I don’t want your three year old to wake up with any sort of intervention, whether it’s the crying of the infant or you going in right, to do check ins if you’re doing that. So an idea here is having the baby be trained in your room or another location.

 

00;08;17;12 – 00;08;32;22

Dr. Mona

And obviously I think it’s going to have to be your room because you all have a two bedroom. If you had like a two bedroom and an office with like a sliding door, right, then you could choose to have it be in the office. But right now, your four month old is in the room with you and your partner, right?

 

00;08;32;25 – 00;08;50;07

Dr. Mona

Yeah. So I think what’s going to have to happen is you’re going to have to train in the same room as you. And I know you’re thinking you’re like, oh my gosh. Like, if I do a cry method, how am I going to tolerate that? So some options are you kind of think of your method. You said use I think for your older sometimes you put like headphones on.

 

00;08;50;10 – 00;09;19;26

Dr. Mona

Yeah you can do headphones or even consider if you temporarily while the training is going, you and your partner either sleep on like a mattress in the living room or a pullout or something else in another space. If it’s too much for y’all with the method that you choose, this is so that we are training that child in one environment, so we’re not switching them around, and hopefully it’s going to be a very similar environment as the older child’s room that you’re going to be moving them into.

 

00;09;19;26 – 00;09;35;22

Dr. Mona

So what I mean by that is if you blackout curtains, the temperature is very similar. That’s really what I mean by the environment. So it’s somewhat mimicking the room that your child is going to be going into with the similar. Do you use a white noise machine for your younger child?

 

00;09;35;25 – 00;09;37;29

Allyson

Sometimes.

 

00;09;38;01 – 00;09;40;21

Dr. Mona

Okay, I know you said you did use it for your sisters.

 

00;09;40;21 – 00;09;41;26

Allyson

Is it. Yes.

 

00;09;41;28 – 00;10;13;11

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And so an option here also is thinking about if you’re going to continue using it for your older child when they start to room share, which actually may be beneficial in this situation given that it’s two children who, if they’re lighter sleepers, the rustling of each other like, you know, if the other one tosses and turns sparks in their sleep, you know, like all the natural things that happened that children do, possibly considering training your four month old with a very low level white noise machine, if that’s what you’re planning on having in the environment in the other room.

 

00;10;13;11 – 00;10;15;17

Allyson

Yes, I think I would. Yeah, yeah.

 

00;10;15;17 – 00;10;34;21

Dr. Mona

The idea is to kind of mimic what environment that child will be in. As close as possible. And I feel like because you have a white noise machine for your older, that it may be a reality that that’s going to need to be continued. And eventually we may be able to wean that off as she gets older and as they get more accustomed to sharing a room together.

 

00;10;34;26 – 00;10;42;02

Dr. Mona

But initially, we may need that to help drown out the tossing and turning that your three year old is not used to hearing in the same room.

 

00;10;42;05 – 00;10;43;21

Allyson

Okay, not a problem.

 

00;10;43;28 – 00;10;59;21

Dr. Mona

And you may need to go up on the volume of the sound machine. Remember that it should still be at a level that’s not blaring to the ears, right? You want to make sure that it’s like loud enough where she’s kind of calm and sleeping, but not like where you can hear it outside the door, like at a loud, loud level.

 

00;10;59;23 – 00;11;18;18

Dr. Mona

And so what you’re going to focus on is training your younger child in the room, like your room. Right? Because that second bedroom, that way you can close the door and do your check ins. Like I said, whatever method a family’s choosing, you’re going to continue to do that when you are getting 2 to 3 nights of sleeping through the night, quote unquote.

 

00;11;18;24 – 00;11;37;21

Dr. Mona

Then we can consider moving that child in with the older sibling. And I would continue your sound machine. You can evenly place it kind of, you know, if you have one child’s bed on one wall and then the crib on the other wall, putting it on like a nightstand or something in between the two sleep areas. So, you know, both of them can hear it.

 

00;11;37;21 – 00;11;42;19

Dr. Mona

That would be something that I think would help with the transition of them being in the room together.

 

00;11;42;21 – 00;11;43;23

Allyson

That makes sense.

 

00;11;43;25 – 00;11;59;18

Dr. Mona

Now, the other thing that I just want to talk about, what you probably, you know, it may come up is if there is a regression, just say there is. You have a soup train kid, especially the infant. There is a reality. There’s going to be moments that they’ll wake up. Or maybe the three year old will wake up at some point.

 

00;11;59;18 – 00;12;16;28

Dr. Mona

You know, there’s a reality with parenting, it’s going to be much easier to explain to a three year old what’s happening versus an infant. So if the infant wakes up in the middle of the night like this is now saying that we’ve trained them, they’re sleeping through the night, but now they’re waking up, you’re going to go in and you’re going to take care of what you need to for the infant.

 

00;12;17;01 – 00;12;39;02

Dr. Mona

If your older daughter does wake up and say, you know, mommy, what’s going on? Or mommy, I need you, I want you to verbally reassure and very calmly, you’re going to say, hi, sweetie. Yes, brother woke up. I’m going to take care of it. You can go back to sleep. And if that means having to carry your younger while you like, just console or pat the older one.

 

00;12;39;08 – 00;12;57;13

Dr. Mona

That way she can go back down because you have a sleep train. Three year olds. It’s actually a really good situation because there is a lot of ability to explain to a three year old. Not like a long, elaborate thing, but reassure, right, I see you. Oh, you heard baby brother. I know you’re concerned mommy will take care of it.

 

00;12;57;19 – 00;13;11;10

Dr. Mona

Mommy hears him. I’ll be back in a little bit. You don’t have to worry about it. I’ll be right there with him. Right. So she’s not feeling like if the baby starts to cry, that she’s responsible for that baby or having to do anything for that baby, that you’re going to come back in to check in on the baby.

 

00;13;11;13 – 00;13;12;28

Dr. Mona

Do you envision that happening with your older?

 

00;13;12;28 – 00;13;24;05

Allyson

She thinks this is her baby. So it goes just like I’m nervous that she’ll try to climb in the crib and are like, you know, try to snuggle him or comfort him.

 

00;13;24;07 – 00;13;39;09

Dr. Mona

So one thing I will say about that, and you said your older daughter is in like a bed, right? Like, not in a crisis. So I think a lot of this is going to be when it’s time to room share. Also, like just say you’ve gone to the phase now that your four month old is sleeping through the night.

 

00;13;39;09 – 00;13;54;24

Dr. Mona

Okay, the 10 to 12 hours and now you’re in the next step of having to move them into the same room together. Talking to your three year old about how exciting this is, that they’re going to share a room. Not like making this like a negative, right? Like, okay, so baby brother is going to move into your room with you because you can’t just surprise her, right?

 

00;13;54;24 – 00;14;13;27

Dr. Mona

Obviously there’s going to be a crib. It’s going to be a reality. And just asking her how she feels about it and telling her that, you know what, baby’s going to come in there. If baby cries, mommy will come in and check up on baby. And just setting the rules, setting the boundaries so that they understand that this is our new situation and also that we’re not blindsiding the three year old of like, hey, guess what?

 

00;14;13;27 – 00;14;28;29

Dr. Mona

You have a roommate now, you know, those will also be important in like that transitional phase when you finally train and now you’re deciding, okay, I’m going to move them into the room together, chatting with the three year old about what’s going to happen because a four month old doesn’t need a debrief. But the three year old will.

 

00;14;29;02 – 00;14;43;20

Dr. Mona

In terms of what does this mean? Here’s where we’re going to put the crib. You’re going to stay in your bed. Baby’s going to be in this crib. You don’t have to put the thought in the head like, don’t say that. Just focus on like, okay, sweetie, stay in your bed, okay? You know, this is where you stay.

 

00;14;43;26 – 00;15;00;04

Dr. Mona

Sometimes when we start to say, don’t, don’t, don’t, don’t jump in the crib, don’t do this. Subconsciously they’re like, oh, I can do that. And then they do it right. So focus on, hey, sweetie, this is where you sleep. You sleep on this bed and this is where you’re going to rest. And this is where baby rests. And we all have our own space.

 

00;15;00;04 – 00;15;15;28

Dr. Mona

So that way she kind of gets into her head that, okay, this is where I sleep. And then also like, if there is going to be some tears, which I imagine with, you know, babies do go through some regressions here and they’re really reaffirming her that you don’t have to do anything. Mommy hears it and mommy will come in when she hears it.

 

00;15;16;03 – 00;15;40;14

Dr. Mona

You don’t have to tell her like you’ll be in right away or that, you know, because sometimes you might leave like a pause or something before you go in, but just kind of affirming to her that, okay, we got this, you know, we’ll take care of it. It’s not your responsibility. And thanking her for being such a good big sister and caring so much about the baby, which is so sweet, I get it, but I understand you’re also concern of like, I don’t want her to be too and yet and like, you know, try to help the baby and jump.

 

00;15;40;18 – 00;15;56;27

Dr. Mona

I want to manage your expectations here that the training process is going to be there. But then when you start to do the room sharing idea here, there may be 3 to 5 days where you’re going to watch on the monitor a little more, especially when there are wake ups. Like if you do hear a wake up or something like you may check on the monitor.

 

00;15;57;01 – 00;16;11;22

Dr. Mona

If you don’t have a monitor in that room anymore, I would add one because you do have an infant in there. Now just to see that the older child is in their bed, that the baby’s in the crib. Obviously they’re not going to move, but that might be something that you still temporarily, if you don’t have that, just so that you can visualize without having to go in.

 

00;16;11;22 – 00;16;14;28

Allyson

You know, I still have a monitor in that room.

 

00;16;15;00 – 00;16;30;14

Dr. Mona

Oh, perfect. Yeah, I think that’s going to be nice. And then we already mentioned about the sound machine, like for your older daughter, when there is a transition there that you’re going to move the baby talking to her about going up on that machine a little bit and maybe doing that before the transition happens. Right. Because that way it’s an adjustment for her.

 

00;16;30;21 – 00;16;45;17

Dr. Mona

So if you’re going to go up a little bit on the decibel level, tell her like we’re going to go up a little bit and then doing that like two days before the transition of room sharing happens. Yeah, I know we went over a lot of stuff that I feel like. Also, again, you may not always hear about our in resources.

 

00;16;45;23 – 00;16;47;28

Dr. Mona

Do you have any follow up questions to the situation? Yes.

 

00;16;48;02 – 00;17;05;18

Allyson

So if I sleep train him and my bedroom, would it be beneficial is when it is time to transition him to the room, send her like to grandma’s house for the weekend so he just has a day or two to get used to being in that room, or just do it kind of all at once.

 

00;17;05;21 – 00;17;24;27

Dr. Mona

Here’s what I would say about that. It really is just a case by case basis. And what I would have you consider is maybe asking your daughter if she wants to do that and if she’s open to it, then doing it. The thing is, I don’t want the three year old to feel like this is some big production and I don’t want it to be that you say, well, we’re moving, baby into your room.

 

00;17;24;27 – 00;17;38;02

Dr. Mona

So while we do that, you’re going to go to grandma. That’s not what it should be. It can be this sort of, hey, do you want to go stay at grandma’s house for the weekend? And then you would adjust the baby there, and then also letting her know that, hey, we’re also going to have a baby with you, right?

 

00;17;38;02 – 00;17;50;29

Dr. Mona

Because we don’t want to blindside her. That she comes back from grandma’s, and there’s all of a sudden a baby in the same room as her, right? So I don’t mind it if that’s part of the excitement of it. Like, you want to go to grandma’s this weekend? Yeah, I love grandma. Okay, you’re going to go to grandma.

 

00;17;50;29 – 00;18;03;26

Dr. Mona

And then when you come back, you and baby brother are going to be in the same room and it’s going to be so fun. And we’re going to read stories together, making it like this fun thing versus a dreaded thing. But ask your three year old, I know it sounds like you know what can a three year old decide there?

 

00;18;03;26 – 00;18;21;03

Dr. Mona

But if she’s like, no mommy, I stay with you guys. Like, I don’t want to go, then I wouldn’t push it too much because I don’t want her to feel like this big change is happening. When I say big change, it may seem like not a big change for us, but having your own space and then having to add someone to it can seem like a big adjustment to a toddler.

 

00;18;21;03 – 00;18;40;10

Dr. Mona

Not every toddler is going to feel like that, but just asking her and just letting out the rule here and the new set up so that she’s aware. Yes. And you’re going to do this. And I’m hopeful that it’s not going to take a long time. I like to manage expectations with my families here that I don’t want us to say, oh, it’s going to be done by this amount because I don’t want us to feel disappointed or nervous.

 

00;18;40;10 – 00;19;15;04

Dr. Mona

If, like, the training takes a longer time, or maybe their adjustment takes a longer time, but I know they’re going to adjust and I do like the age separation, because I feel like a child who’s older than three has some not complete, but some level of developed cognitive understanding to understand a little more than a two year old or, you know, two months old, close together because you can kind of say and really build on her being an amazing big sister and not having her feel like she has to take the responsibility for that baby because these compassionate toddlers, man, like, they really do feel like, oh well, I want to do this.

 

00;19;15;04 – 00;19;29;18

Dr. Mona

Like, I love my baby brother and I love this and stuff, but we want to just remind her that we love her and that she’s doing great and that you will manage the baby. You know you don’t need her like she’s great, but she can help when the baby’s awake, you know? Yes. Yeah, well, I hope that was helpful.

 

00;19;29;18 – 00;19;32;05

Allyson

Yeah, it really was. Yeah. Thank you.

 

00;19;32;08 – 00;19;34;13

Dr. Mona

And when do you think you’ll plan on training? The younger while.

 

00;19;34;13 – 00;19;42;07

Allyson

I’m still on maternity leave. And then go back to work at the end of March. So I was hoping to spend March working on this.

 

00;19;42;09 – 00;19;44;15

Dr. Mona

Okay. So five months, six months.

 

00;19;44;22 – 00;19;45;21

Allyson

Yes. Yeah.

 

00;19;45;21 – 00;20;03;01

Dr. Mona

So I think that’s a very smart idea for again, going back to this conversation of, you know, parents deciding when and what makes sense logistically for their resources. Obviously, going back to work, training before then makes a lot of sense and also just the setup of your home. But I’m really excited and I’ll follow up with you on how things went or how they’re going.

 

00;20;03;03 – 00;20;04;16

Allyson

Okay, great. Thank you.

 

00;20;04;19 – 00;20;28;27

Dr. Mona

No problem. So as you can see from our discussion in parenting, it’s not always possible to find an answer for every parenting situation you’re going to find yourself in. I love having this platform because I can chat with you on all these questions that are very nuanced, the specific things that you’re like, I swear, someone else in the world is probably thinking of this too.

 

00;20;29;00 – 00;20;52;13

Dr. Mona

But when you approach these situations, you have to think about your living arrangements. You have to think about your resources and say, here are some options. Here is what’s best for my family. If you’re listening to this episode, you may never want to sleep train. And that is amazing and reasonable. But for a family who may want to do that and is part of their parenting philosophy, I think it’s appropriate having these conversations on how do you tackle this?

 

00;20;52;13 – 00;21;14;09

Dr. Mona

When there is a room sharing situation with a toddler and an infant? I hope you find these episodes useful. I love doing them for you again. If you found this episode helpful, make sure you share it on social media. Tag me at PedsDocTalk and leave those reviews. I can’t say it enough. Those reviews is how the podcast continues to grow, and I can’t wait to chat with you all next time.