n this episode I welcome Nicole Hughes (@nicolehughes8 on IG) who documents on her Instagram her life after loss and, in her words, “choosing to survive the impossible.” We discuss the following:

• What prompted her to become an advocate for drowning prevention
• Common misconceptions and assumptions
• What she thinks the AAP can change in regards to drowning awareness/education
• What education/tools she thinks parents should equip themselves or their child with
• Why puddle jumpers are not ideal for drowning prevention
• What ISR is and why swim lessons are needed

00;00;08;25 – 00;00;28;05

Dr. Mona

Thank you for joining me on this episode. This episode is part of the Mothers Message series that I have on this podcast, where I invite fellow moms and dads if they would like to come to share a message about something in their lives that happened with their child to educate other parents. And I’m just so grateful to welcome Nicole Hughes.

 

00;00;28;06 – 00;00;43;16

Dr. Mona

She is a mother. We’re talking about her loss of her child to drowning and how she’s turning her grief into advocacy to help other families save their children from drowning incidents. So thank you so much for joining me today, Nicole.

 

00;00;43;19 – 00;00;47;23

Nicole Hughes

Oh, thank you. I really appreciate you having me here. Well, that.

 

00;00;47;23 – 00;01;05;12

Dr. Mona

Appreciation goes right back at you. You know, I’m so grateful we were able to connect on social media. For everyone listening, we’re both on Instagram. Nicole’s on Instagram as Nicole Hughes eight. I’m going to put that on my show notes. And, I had posted something on my feet about swimming lessons, and so one of her friends tagged her.

 

00;01;05;17 – 00;01;23;28

Dr. Mona

And, you know, if we start a conversation about swimming lessons and the importance of swimming lessons, but we’re going to get into what the importance is. It’s not just swimming lessons, but it’s survival skills. And we’re going to talk all about this. And, you know, we’re going to talk about what happened. But just turning what happened to your family, into advocacy is such a hard thing to do for many.

 

00;01;23;28 – 00;01;44;11

Dr. Mona

You know, I don’t think it can come with a lot of emotions and it can come with a lot of stuff with that. But I just so appreciate as a pediatrician, as a mother myself, just what you’re doing to help other families be educated. And like we talked about earlier before the recording, just not fear mongering, but just education so people can make the best decisions to really help save lives.

 

00;01;44;11 – 00;01;47;12

Dr. Mona

So I really appreciate, you know.

 

00;01;47;12 – 00;02;04;04

Nicole Hughes

Exactly. Yeah. It takes a lot of courage, I think, to to listen, to be willing to be open to listening to this. And, you know, obviously this is about time off and I do not want to fear mongering. We still my girls were in the pool all the time. We live on the lake. I mean, this is not about avoiding water.

 

00;02;04;16 – 00;02;26;16

Nicole Hughes

But it is about, you know what I wish I had known, you know, three years ago, there was so much information in my brain about, you know, screen time and, you know, organic food and all of these things. That drowning was definitely almost like background noise. I mean, of course I knew kids could drown. But I thought that it was as simple as, you know, watch your kids when you’re swimming, like, don’t you know?

 

00;02;26;16 – 00;02;48;24

Nicole Hughes

And obviously, we took it very seriously. And I think actually, that is what does motivate me so much to advocate is we did take it very seriously. And when you look at everything that is like that sort of generic recommendations for water safety, we did all of those, you know, we have five, 16 photos of what would be my son’s final day of life and, and 14 of those, he was wearing a life jacket or a puddle jumper.

 

00;02;48;26 – 00;03;05;10

Nicole Hughes

Yeah. I mean, I never let him near water. I thought that was the best thing to do, you know? And, Yeah, we waited until he was ready to start swim lessons and all of these things that I thought I was doing the right thing on, and and now I know so much, of what I will do differently and what I am doing differently with our other children.

 

00;03;05;28 – 00;03;22;16

Dr. Mona

And that’s I, I really appreciate you saying that. And you said one thing about waiting for readiness, and we’re going to go over, like, how that can be much earlier than people think, because, you know, we can be in puddle jumpers. We can maybe get into that. You know why? I also don’t recommend Puddle Jumpers and I love using.

 

00;03;22;18 – 00;03;39;05

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And I don’t use it for my own son. And it’s one of those things like, and you said it perfectly when we started. Like, I know families are using puddle jumpers. I get it like I see it. I have friends who use puddle jumpers for their kids, and it’s not like every day I’m lecturing someone about don’t use the puddle jumper, like in like social situations.

 

00;03;39;12 – 00;03;57;17

Dr. Mona

But it is about, again, awareness and education about hey, when we we should definitely get into that later. But this is why I don’t want you wearing a puddle jumper and what psychologically a child may think when they have a puddle jumper and they now don’t. And so we’re going to get into that. But, you know, first I again, I wanted to thank you for your vulnerability.

 

00;03;57;17 – 00;04;17;26

Dr. Mona

I know sharing this again. And you’ve done other podcasts as well. And I know you shared your story, many places, but I just really want to thank you and appreciate you for sharing your story. And just tell us a little bit about what happened with Levi. That’s your son’s name. You know what happened? You said you guys were doing all the things you knew what to do, but if you’re willing to share whatever you are willing to share, that would be amazing.

 

00;04;17;28 – 00;04;37;21

Nicole Hughes

You were. So thank you for how gentle you’ve handled this, and I have shared it, but it always is. So, it feels like the first time, every time, you know that I do share it. The story, it still feels so genuine, and I always am so grateful for how I feel like people need it with gentleness and just an open heart.

 

00;04;37;21 – 00;04;57;23

Nicole Hughes

So, my my husband’s actually a physician as well. He’s an anesthesiologist, and he’s training to lived in Alabama. And we started going on this annual beach trip every year with five other families that drew and the residency program. So they became, I mean, you know, you know, how it is like when you’re in residency and these are like our family and we’re family.

 

00;04;57;23 – 00;05;13;19

Nicole Hughes

And every year we took this trip. And in 2018, in June of 2018, we’ve been going for more than ten years. And this was our seventh trip, just in the same exact house. But this time that we lived in six different states and we still came every year. We still do it every year for a week in June.

 

00;05;13;19 – 00;05;31;18

Nicole Hughes

It’s been it together. It’s the best week. It’s such a special time. And so the first full day was a Sunday and Levi was three. He turned three that March. You know, we decided to wait until he was ready for some life. And so before we even left the living room, there was a pool of two pools in the backyard, but, you know, behind the house.

 

00;05;31;21 – 00;05;49;09

Nicole Hughes

And I would put jump on him. You know, I thought that’s what I was supposed to do it. Then U.S. Coast Guard approved at a time. You know, I had no idea how misleading that was. So I made sure he always had his paddle jump from before we even left the house. I mean, I told him and told him and told him over and over and over, you never go near the water without mommy.

 

00;05;49;09 – 00;06;09;13

Nicole Hughes

I mean, he knew exactly what to say to him. What happens if you go near the water without mommy and he would say, we won’t see each other again. It will be very sad. I mean, I did it best is I thought a three year old could understand. And of course, now I know it’s not enough to tell them you have to show them and which we can touch on it, you know, in a minute.

 

00;06;09;13 – 00;06;34;22

Nicole Hughes

But so because there’s so much to the story and how loved he was and how he lives and how especially with our family. And we had two older girls, they were nine and five at the time. And in Levi was our final, our baby. And it was an entire day. The pool at the ocean. He’s wearing a life jacket or a puddle jumper the entire day, you know, flying a kite lifejacket, eating him and end next to his dad, lifejacket calling his big sister’s paddle jumper.

 

00;06;34;27 – 00;06;59;17

Nicole Hughes

And I have 14 photos timestamped on that day. On that time, we we had no idea that this would be the last pictures that we have him. And that evening we finished filming for the day. It was about 630 and we were waiting for it to get dark to go crab hunting. It was always like this annual tradition on the Sunday we went and it kind of started raining, which is relevant because we always took the toys out of the pool and then that night we didn’t because of lightning.

 

00;06;59;17 – 00;07;17;13

Nicole Hughes

We were just trying to get everybody inside. And so we ate dinner and Levi was wearing his yellow crab hunting shirt. You had already given a bat in candy shorts. Ten adults in the room. He’s like a really big house. We all in one house is really big house. And he was sitting on the couch watching America’s Funniest Videos.

 

00;07;17;13 – 00;07;37;10

Nicole Hughes

There was this raccoon that they all thought was so funny and all the kids are there. We’re all just kind of walking around cleaning up, you know, whatever. My phone was charging in the other room, I wasn’t on Facebook, I wasn’t drinking, and it was just cleaning up. After dinner, I gave him a bowl of Cheetos and, you know, was on the couch and I turned around.

 

00;07;37;17 – 00;07;57;20

Nicole Hughes

I mean, AMC was no more than 20ft away from me at any given point. And somehow I split a brownie with a very small brownie. I put half in his bowl and then I ate the other half, and somehow he managed to get out of the heavy doors and down a flight of stairs, and he reached the pool alone.

 

00;07;57;23 – 00;08;21;03

Nicole Hughes

And a moment, I mean it was so quick that honestly we didn’t even know he was missing. I mean, we were just all kind of moving around, like doing that transition work. And, you know, dinner was over waiting for taking dirt to happening. And I just walked on the balcony. Still hadn’t finished my small brownie piece still in my mouth, and looked out just to check on the weather and happened to glance down and saw Levi in the pool.

 

00;08;22;25 – 00;08;45;06

Nicole Hughes

And you know, like I said, every time, even right now, I’m still thinking now. Like what? But we weren’t swimming. We weren’t doing and and of course, that was my immediate reaction was just. And I think it lasted. And I mean, not even a split second before I reacted, obviously. But I do remember that shock and confusion and I just thought, boy, you aren’t swimming, but we aren’t swimming.

 

00;08;45;09 – 00;09;08;22

Nicole Hughes

Like, I mean, I didn’t I could not project this. And then of course started screaming, running on the doors. And, you know, they all just came running. And yeah, I will say that later. Even speaking as a physician, you know, we had six physicians later, all different states, six different states, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, South Carolina, Tennessee. I mean, we live on a there’s water around all of us.

 

00;09;08;25 – 00;09;26;28

Nicole Hughes

Every single person later said they thought someone had fallen down the stairs. And I was that. We were overlooking two pools and an ocean. And it wasn’t that we didn’t take water safety seriously, obviously. I mean, we wash our feet assuming we, you know, we did. But this idea of the nine time had never reached any of us.

 

00;09;27;01 – 00;09;47;10

Nicole Hughes

And, you know, we managed to get I jumped in, I ran down the stairs and jumped in and pulled him out. And they had an EpiPen. They had a full intubation kit. Well, there it was, fighting physiologists. And even with that immediate medical attention, he was airlifted, but we lost him, you know, just later that later that night.

 

00;09;47;13 – 00;09;53;03

Nicole Hughes

And it sucks. I wish I had a better, more eloquent way.

 

00;09;53;05 – 00;10;13;28

Dr. Mona

But it does. I mean, I’m look, I’ve heard this story. I, like I told you, I knew your story before I met you today. And hearing you talk about it, I’m putting myself there with you, and I’m just so sorry. You know, I I’m. I really appreciate you taking the time to share the story, because I know that it’s hard.

 

00;10;14;07 – 00;10;25;26

Dr. Mona

So I, again, really want to express that gratitude that I, that I mentioned before because I know that reliving something, even if you are, have turned it into advocacy, even if you have grown your family, even though.

 

00;10;25;28 – 00;10;45;28

Nicole Hughes

Yeah, there is no longer there’s no at least that gives me my life. And that’s right. That is and that is hard. But, you know, it is. This year. I appreciate you being willing to listen and, you know, to share this. And I do think that the story matters, though, because it is so important to people to realize that these are loved children.

 

00;10;45;28 – 00;11;02;03

Nicole Hughes

And it happened so fast, and it happened in that transition time. And yes, CPR matters and all these things matter. But let’s focus a little more on the preventative. I feel like in a little bit less on, you know, on the CPR part of it, because it didn’t matter in our case at all, really. But thank you.

 

00;11;02;03 – 00;11;19;22

Nicole Hughes

I do appreciate it. You know, and there’s so much to his story that is his life and how he lived and, how he will live in us. So it isn’t just his death and just the sadness, but but it is definitely still, you know, even three years later. Yeah. I mean, it’s never going to go away, right?

 

00;11;19;22 – 00;11;20;17

Nicole Hughes

But it’s never.

 

00;11;20;17 – 00;11;31;09

Dr. Mona

Yeah, it’s never I mean, it’s just, I saw this imagery and I about grief, how the grief stays the same. Like, the size of the grief is always there. We just grow around it, right? I mean.

 

00;11;31;11 – 00;11;31;28

Nicole Hughes

It’s not.

 

00;11;32;01 – 00;11;42;26

Dr. Mona

It’s it was like a little ball in, like, a jar, and I visually, I visibly saw it. And it was such a perfect depiction of how the grief is, is that the grief doesn’t get smaller. The grief is always going to be the same size, but.

 

00;11;42;26 – 00;11;43;09

Nicole Hughes

Yeah, but.

 

00;11;43;09 – 00;11;47;12

Dr. Mona

We, the jar who we are, grow around the grief so that we can move.

 

00;11;47;12 – 00;11;47;22

Nicole Hughes

On.

 

00;11;47;25 – 00;11;54;07

Dr. Mona

And move forward, not move on. Right. It’s just, I mean, exactly what you’re saying. Like it’s I again, I’m just.

 

00;11;54;10 – 00;11;55;24

Nicole Hughes

I’m feeling so sweet.

 

00;11;55;26 – 00;12;02;14

Dr. Mona

Horror. Oh my gosh, that scene. Yeah. I just really, And I, you know. Yeah. Go ahead.

 

00;12;02;20 – 00;12;12;29

Nicole Hughes

No, I’m so sorry. I was going to say, you know, I first of all, you’re saying all the right things. I know it’s difficult to talk to somebody who’s lost a child, you know, and you never know, like, are you saying the right thing or not? And I can tell your heart you’re so genuine with everything you’re saying.

 

00;12;12;29 – 00;12;33;24

Nicole Hughes

So that’s all that matters. Don’t overthink what you’re saying. The problem is it’s perfect and also is just, you know, I think that that is, like you said, the horror, the shock that that is I do think a big part of what motivates me to continue advocating because it was such a shock, like we weren’t swimming. I mean, you know, in and of course, you know, the kids can drown and, you know, kids can, you know, die from injuries.

 

00;12;33;27 – 00;12;42;05

Nicole Hughes

But that is still my immediate reaction. My immediate go to emotion is the shock and the horror and the confusion.

 

00;12;42;08 – 00;13;00;03

Dr. Mona

And we were talking a briefly about like, you know, your husband was a physician and people may have had like, misconceptions like, well, you know, they’re doctors. They knew this. We had all this. Are there other misconceptions or assumptions that were made after this happened, like either in your friend group or community? I’m sure. I mean, I’m sure you got like a lot.

 

00;13;00;03 – 00;13;05;08

Dr. Mona

And if what were the major things that were told to you or the judgment passed like all of that?

 

00;13;05;10 – 00;13;26;10

Nicole Hughes

Yes. This is such a good question. You know, I do think that, have tell people that your child drowned, like from the beginning, we knew we were not neglectful. It didn’t even cross my mind that that would be something that would be assumed about the situation. Because we were cleaning up. We were doing that. We weren’t nobody was drinking, you know.

 

00;13;26;17 – 00;13;43;29

Nicole Hughes

So of course we knew we were not neglectful. It wasn’t until like, you know, it was it was probably the next day, but it felt like an eternity. But then on the local news and all these things had to pick these things up. And, and then when you read those articles, it’s exactly why I thought drowning was never going to happen to me.

 

00;13;44;01 – 00;14;01;04

Nicole Hughes

The sheriff had to come and ask me questions, and then, you know, I’m dripping wet, raging of the universe. I mean, I don’t even remember what I said. This poor man. Yeah, but the way they interpreted this is not a negative attack against the media or anything like that, but, like, they don’t know they weren’t there and they have to send it up.

 

00;14;01;04 – 00;14;16;19

Nicole Hughes

So, you know, it was the entire family was sitting down to dinner and three year old Levi Hughes wandered away. She’s not happy at all. What it is like. Like I was just sitting there forgetting had a kid. I mean, you know, who has a child, especially a three year old, and just think, oh, well, they’re not here while we’re eating.

 

00;14;16;19 – 00;14;38;15

Nicole Hughes

It’s cool. I’m fine. I mean, that that is not even even at all what happened, but definitely the neglect. I definitely the stigma around drowning. There’s no way around it. There is no way to tiptoe around it. That is the biggest factor prohibiting progress in drowning prevention. No way around it is that people think drowning happens to children who have neglectful parents, who aren’t watching them when they’re swimming.

 

00;14;38;19 – 00;14;57;28

Nicole Hughes

I mean, period, and not even knowing that maybe realize you think that. But because so much of the water safety advice it’s pushed out is so generic and outdated and unfounded on any sort of data, to be honest. And so often it water continues swimming when arms reach when you’re swimming, you know, but the real data is missing.

 

00;14;57;28 – 00;15;12;18

Nicole Hughes

And, you know, with the real data it is. And of course this is, I think, the most recent CDC report. So drowning is the number one cause of death for 1 to 4 year olds. And, and it’s a leading cause of death for, I mean, as you know, for all ages. I mean, it’s always a risk, you know, worldwide especially.

 

00;15;12;18 – 00;15;31;04

Nicole Hughes

But but like, just within the United States, I think it was 78% of all drownings were taught or 1 to 4 year olds. So that’s a huge percentage like. Right? I mean, especially like as a scientist, would you not say like that is some strong data when you look at what percentage it is in toddlers in the 1 to 4 range?

 

00;15;31;06 – 00;15;55;02

Nicole Hughes

And then if you continue to break that down, most toddlers are drowning when it’s announcement time. And I think that is the information that is missing the transition time. It’s every story. You know, unfortunately, I know hundreds of parents have lost a toddler and it’s I don’t want to say this. And then people let their guard down when you’re swimming with your kids, obviously, but very rarely that when it’s even happening.

 

00;15;55;10 – 00;15;56;01

Dr. Mona

The closest.

 

00;15;56;01 – 00;16;13;26

Nicole Hughes

It comes to that sort of happening is when they’ve been in the puddle jumper and a parent takes it off and they’re like, sort of chilling on the side in a chair or eating a snack or something. And then they manage well, maybe like the older kids are still swimming and the parent sort of thinks they’re sitting there and you know, you’re distracted for a second, putting goggles on your other child or, you know, whatever it is.

 

00;16;13;28 – 00;16;31;02

Nicole Hughes

And then somehow the child reaches the water again. But even that’s not even technically one time, you know, like you think in your head of a swim time, right? We think they’re drowning when they’re in the water and you see them. So that stigma around, you know, not watching your kids and your swimming and it’s very harmful.

 

00;16;31;04 – 00;16;47;02

Nicole Hughes

Yeah. It really is encouraging our culture in a way to allow children to drown, because every time you hear that message you sort of find a loophole or you mentally check off like, oh, my child drowned because of course I watch them when we’re swimming. All right, moving on to the next thing to worry about, right.

 

00;16;47;04 – 00;17;09;14

Dr. Mona

And I think you’re right, though. I mean, that stigma goes with all safety things like including hot car debts. And then we talk about drowning. It’s that mentality of it’s never going to happen to me. So when you have that mentality, then you are more likely to judge other people when these accidents happen. I mean, I see this all the time as a pediatrician and it drives me nuts when people judge other parents for things that are truly accidents.

 

00;17;09;14 – 00;17;19;02

Dr. Mona

I mean, this was an accident. I mean, this was an accident that no family deserves that judgment or, hey, you should have done this, or maybe we should have done this. Like, of course I’m sure people are thinking of that, but.

 

00;17;19;05 – 00;17;19;29

Nicole Hughes

I know.

 

00;17;20;02 – 00;17;39;07

Dr. Mona

It’s what we should educate about. Hey, we want to educate you about safety, but that safety stigma and that whole mentality of, oh, it would never happen to me. I cringe when people say that I cringe in my office. I cringe when family members say it, like if I’m having conversations about something sad that happened and, you know, they were like, oh, but that would never happen.

 

00;17;39;07 – 00;17;46;26

Dr. Mona

I’m like, is it? Are you sure? Because what you’re describing that happened to Levi, I that is exactly how I’ve seen drowning deaths happen in.

 

00;17;46;28 – 00;17;47;28

Nicole Hughes

That transition, right?

 

00;17;47;29 – 00;18;18;09

Dr. Mona

Yeah. Like in my residency and when I was a medical student. And I will never, ever forget those families because these were exactly like your family, loving parents who were having social gatherings, which we all do. Everyone is in the home, everyone’s playing, everyone’s getting ready for bed. It’s what we do. I mean, this is what you’re describing is not an unusual circumstance, and I cannot even imagine that, you know, when the police officers had to come and you were telling them, and it seems so much more written as like, that’s not what I can totally see that happening.

 

00;18;18;19 – 00;18;25;15

Dr. Mona

And that’s when I would feel that judgment, too. It’s like, well, no, no, like we were getting ready. Families get ready like this thousands of times.

 

00;18;25;17 – 00;18;40;06

Nicole Hughes

Like we were. So is that. Yes. Thank you for saying all that. You know, if you would give me a thousand reasons what? One of my kids would have died. Drowning would have not even been in my list of the top 1000, you know, because I have thought, well, they’re not going to drown because we watch them when they’re swimming.

 

00;18;40;08 – 00;18;56;16

Nicole Hughes

You know, we don’t have a backyard pool or whatever, but I don’t think I ever did it. I know I didn’t do it like a mental way. And I do think that some parents, I think it’s almost human nature. We have so many things to worry about that we’re just trying to find that loophole of like what we can check off.

 

00;18;56;19 – 00;19;18;04

Nicole Hughes

Right. And so I do think it is partially that, you know, I have to say that I’ve had just such a beautiful all support from social media. I don’t even remember, like making the decision. I didn’t even have a public Instagram before. Like I just had, you know, engaging my kids or whatever. It wasn’t like I set out to let me share about grief and about drowning prevention.

 

00;19;18;08 – 00;19;38;07

Nicole Hughes

I didn’t really think about it. I think I just started sharing things. But there’s never like an agenda or a motive really, beyond just sharing, always at that moment. But I mean, it’s just been such a beautiful experience, I have to say, the support and the, encouragement in people who, you know, say that they send their child out for so much either so hard that they threw the paddle away.

 

00;19;38;09 – 00;19;55;24

Nicole Hughes

And I think that when people hear the statistics, if you as a parent is really willing to look at the statistics and really face, you know, face to face, drowning is the number one thing that could take my three year old for me. And maybe I need to take this seriously. Like I’m not just a mom and dad.

 

00;19;55;24 – 00;20;14;02

Nicole Hughes

I mean, these are the statistics that I do think. Then it does sort of encourage parents say, okay, then what action steps can I take? Because I really is doable. Like, this can be, I don’t know. It’s just like an easy approach obviously, but it isn’t impossible. Like this is not well, you can never go anywhere. There’s a pool again.

 

00;20;14;04 – 00;20;16;20

Nicole Hughes

You know, that’s not all the point.

 

00;20;16;22 – 00;20;33;12

Dr. Mona

And I think, you know, you focused so much of your advocacy working with the app. Right? I mean that my app is obviously the American Academy of Pediatrics. Tell me more about the work that you’ve done with them in regards to changing how we word or educate about water safety. I mean, I would love to hear what you work with them about.

 

00;20;33;12 – 00;20;34;00

Dr. Mona

Yeah.

 

00;20;34;03 – 00;20;45;28

Nicole Hughes

Guys, I always want to talk about this because I just I know it’s been it’s just been, you know, I don’t really have or is the right word because I, I so wish I wasn’t doing it, obviously.

 

00;20;45;28 – 00;20;46;18

Dr. Mona

But of course.

 

00;20;46;18 – 00;21;07;29

Nicole Hughes

Working with the AARP has been, you know, like I told you at another time, I mean, it always, always, like, makes me tear up because it’s just been such a an example of beauty in the midst of tragedy in just an affirmation of reaffirming that people really are good and pediatricians really do care about kids. I mean, it is it’s a real big thing.

 

00;21;07;29 – 00;21;28;17

Nicole Hughes

And, and just sort of witnessed that firsthand and witnessed the evolution of this over just the last three years of this new drowning prevention policy and toolkit has been really a first. I wish I wasn’t doing it, obviously, but it has really been. So, so it really has been special. But so the week after Levi died, like exactly like a week to the day my husband found the information on the CDC website.

 

00;21;28;19 – 00;21;50;22

Nicole Hughes

You know, the age most at risk of drowning is 1 to 4 year old. We did not know this beforehand. Really? In Tennessee, I mean, we just didn’t know what ages one to form. And, most often it’s and they’re not swimming and they somehow reach water, unanticipated access to water, you know, and I can’t remember the exact thing, but the vast majority of them are out of sight for even fewer than five minutes.

 

00;21;50;29 – 00;22;08;12

Nicole Hughes

And we were just sitting there and it was like, our heart’s like, broke all over again, because I just thought I was really angry, to be honest. And not that we were trying to push blame on ourselves. I mean, we were his parents and we were responsible to keep him safe. I mean, there’s no way around it, but we didn’t know.

 

00;22;08;15 – 00;22;27;22

Nicole Hughes

We just did. I know it sounds crazy, and even my husband said later, you know, on a call, he was playing devil’s advocate. And he said, well, what is there to know? You know, kids can’t breathe underwater. And I was like, how else are we supposed to know what we’re doing? You know, as a parent, I do depend on parenting books and parenting articles and guidelines and pediatricians.

 

00;22;27;22 – 00;22;47;24

Nicole Hughes

I mean, I don’t know what I’m doing without that guidance. And so it was pretty heartbreaking. I mean, I kept thinking, surely I just missed places, information. You know, we just taken, I had gone on to his three year well-child checkup in April of 2018, and actually it was the first week of April. And actually, that same day, you know, my husband said, what are we going to do about Levi?

 

00;22;47;24 – 00;23;06;04

Nicole Hughes

And some lessons? And I said, and this is I still have a screenshot like it shows the date I visited. I said, I don’t know, let me see with a because that’s what I always did for, you know, even though I now have five kids, I still can’t ever remember, you know, when things changed so much, you know, with my 12 year old daughter car seat, you turn around at one, you know.

 

00;23;06;04 – 00;23;21;27

Nicole Hughes

Now, of course, it’s, you know, it’s changed just just since I’ve had my oldest daughter and 12 years ago. So I always just double check to make sure you know that nothing is invalid. So. So let me did a reset and looked at that and it said to wait until they were four or until they were ready. And so we stood in our kitchen and we said, well, he does not seem ready.

 

00;23;21;27 – 00;23;28;20

Nicole Hughes

I mean, he was only, you know, these two older girls who are very serious, typical girls who would like, do something for the sticker, you know.

 

00;23;28;22 – 00;23;30;11

Dr. Mona

Like you’re like, oh, that.

 

00;23;30;11 – 00;23;45;14

Nicole Hughes

Okay. And he was not going to do that is not in me and using that. And it was silly and fun. But he was just such a boy. And we said, well, we’re just going to wait because we actually sat and thought we were doing the right thing. I said, I don’t want him to ever think he’s supposed to get in water without the pedal jumper.

 

00;23;45;17 – 00;24;01;05

Nicole Hughes

So I thought, you know, this might well be black and white, you know, swim lessons. I don’t want to be confused and think, well, sometimes I can get in without it. I genuinely thought I was making the best decision for him. I was wrong, you know, we had exactly two and a half months left and we had no idea, so we decided to not put him in.

 

00;24;01;05 – 00;24;18;14

Nicole Hughes

So after we lost Levi, my husband found these statistics and I just started searching. I was like, so I first of all, I’m just going to share with AP. Had I just got to push it out there on social media maybe, you know, so I went I looked it up on their Twitter, Facebook, they AP, there’s a blog, the Healthy Children website, all of these things.

 

00;24;18;17 – 00;24;49;11

Nicole Hughes

And this is 2018. I found one post about drownings. July is the middle of July 2018. From one post about drowning from the summer of 2017, an article from 2004 and an article from 2010. And well, there was more about what was about drowning. And I just honestly felt like my heart shattered. And looking back, I want to be clear, and I understand now so much through working so closely with them and how much they do really care, and all positions really do care.

 

00;24;49;13 – 00;25;11;27

Nicole Hughes

It is a complicated thing. It isn’t something like car seats, where there’s federal regulation around the production of them and the making and testing of them. Right. And so because drowning is so complicated and it seems so complicated, it really isn’t when you break it down, but with different age groups and different geographic locations. And the biggest thing is because there’s so little data around what works and what does it, you know, that’s why they’re deciding this notion.

 

00;25;11;27 – 00;25;28;02

Nicole Hughes

To be quite honest, I think that the AAP and I think they admitted this, I guess, you know, a little bit not in so many words. I don’t know what we’re talking about, but the idea of like the stigma even even in this case, you know, it’s like, well, we’ll watch your kid and we have to say, these other kids, this is not what anyone has ever said to me.

 

00;25;28;02 – 00;25;46;00

Nicole Hughes

This is, you know, but I do think that the stigma just indirectly, you know, did play a role sort of in that as well, you know, like, well, here’s the facts about your kids time. But obviously there’s more to that. So I became friends with Cody Morgan Miller, who are absolutely incredible. And, they lost their daughter Emmy.

 

00;25;46;02 – 00;25;52;11

Nicole Hughes

Same day is Levi across the country from each other? Same day, same year, same way. Not something. Wow.

 

00;25;52;11 – 00;25;55;00

Dr. Mona

Same day I didn’t realize. Same day. Wow.

 

00;25;55;01 – 00;26;14;20

Nicole Hughes

And know like, we just connected as friends and they’re incredible. And, through them and through, you know, we just were reaching out, and so we connected with AP and, this is in summer of 2018. And again, I have to give them so much credit for the work that really they’ve done, but there’s still so much to be done still, to be honest.

 

00;26;14;20 – 00;26;47;14

Nicole Hughes

But if you look at three years ago versus now, it does feel like this is definitely moving in the right direction. And we actually were able to help give insight and feedback to the updated policy that was released in 2019. And we’re in Chicago at the annual leadership forum of the AP in March of 2019. When the revised policy was released in 2019 and and we were able to do a PSA for the AP and help get some feedback and insight and things like that into the drowning prevention toolkit that they created.

 

00;26;47;17 – 00;27;06;06

Nicole Hughes

So it was, you know, it is difficult to choose the right words to because, again, this is not exactly it’s not an accomplishment. It’s not something I wish I was doing. But I am grateful for how they didn’t move quickly. I mean, especially for the AARP. You know, usually things like this take years and years when you’re looking at a large organization like that.

 

00;27;06;06 – 00;27;12;26

Nicole Hughes

So it has been good to get some of the advocacy through such a powerful platform. Yeah.

 

00;27;12;28 – 00;27;30;28

Dr. Mona

Oh, I’m so grateful for that. I mean, that’s just how change happens. And especially, you know, with big organizations like AP, it can be sometimes hard to get your message across, you know? But obviously advocacy is how you do that. It’s like politics, you know, like obviously getting anything, you know, across. It’s so nice to hear that they were receptive.

 

00;27;30;28 – 00;27;47;10

Dr. Mona

And I’m, you know, I’m not surprised. But that’s just so nice to hear. And I am going to be attaching some resources about the conversations that were had and just more about safety tips useful for parents, but also useful for any pediatricians or medical professionals who are listening. So thank you. I know you have sent me though, so thank you so much.

 

00;27;47;10 – 00;27;49;01

Dr. Mona

I’ll put that on my show.

 

00;27;49;04 – 00;28;11;24

Dr. Mona

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00;28;11;26 – 00;28;33;24

Dr. Mona

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00;28;33;26 – 00;28;45;18

Dr. Mona

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00;28;45;20 – 00;29;08;22

Nicole Hughes

Looking at their policy and think there’s still so much that isn’t known. But one thing that I am grateful for and I hope we continue to see more ad especially pediatricians, is there seems to be like this default recommendation for the American Red cross or the YMCA. So my friends and I have a wonderful connection with some people and a lot of support of the American Red cross.

 

00;29;08;25 – 00;29;28;26

Nicole Hughes

You know, we love our YMCA. Like this is not something like attacking, you know, any organization here, but there is actually no evidence zero evidence to support either of those swim instruction programs. But yet there is like this grandfathered in, completely unfounded on any sort of evidence recommendation available to go to the American Cross or go to the YMCA.

 

00;29;28;26 – 00;29;50;05

Nicole Hughes

Like, it’s really bizarre, actually. And that is one thing that it was a little bit more difficult to get that is ingrained, I think is just the immediate swim lessons go here. It doesn’t mean people can’t still recommend it, but I do think it needs to be very clear that there is no data on whether or not these are effective versus the sort of typical reference to go to one of those programs.

 

00;29;50;07 – 00;30;16;23

Nicole Hughes

And that’s one thing that I’ve been really happy with with the app is sort of being more transparent about what is known, but also what is not know. There hasn’t been a specific study on cuddle jumpers yet. But also we can say, well, here’s what we do know, and here’s what we don’t know yet about those. And then letting parents sort of make their own decision, you know, taking this information and making the decision that is best, you know, for their families with the swim program or with whether or not to use a puddle jumper.

 

00;30;16;26 – 00;30;25;10

Dr. Mona

Let’s talk about puddle jumpers. Like what? I mean, obviously I know, but in terms of like explaining why puddle jumpers are not ideal, like, what are the situation here.

 

00;30;25;11 – 00;30;53;13

Nicole Hughes

That I don’t know exactly. And I think that oh, I know for a fact I thought it was like I said, the best thing I could do for. Yeah, for my kids. I mean, because again, I thought they were drowning when they were swimming. So I think that once you look at those statistics and you realize that toddlers are drowning when they reach the water alone during an on some time, almost always, and again, even if it is sort of during a swim time, it’s usually when they’ve taken the temperature gone and tried to eat a hot dog, and then they managed to support alone, you know, so even if they’re still wearing their swimsuit,

 

00;30;53;18 – 00;31;08;26

Nicole Hughes

that is it really is some time, right? They are taking it off. So the problem is the marketing is brilliant on their part. And they said US Coast Guard approved. And I have a picture of a kid jumping in a swimming pool. Well, and anybody can reach out to the US Coast Guard and they will verify this.

 

00;31;08;29 – 00;31;28;12

Nicole Hughes

The US Coast Guard does not approve, endorse or test items to be used in swimming pools. However, they only test items to be used on like vessels, like on boats or on docks. If you’re going to be around natural water, like attach it to. What these companies have done is taken this U.S. Coast Guard approval, which they are to be.

 

00;31;28;17 – 00;31;46;07

Nicole Hughes

They could be worn on a dock if you’re fishing, if you’re not planning on getting in the water like that’s what they’re intended to be worn for, do not even be worn in lakes. So, you know, if somebody actually did the research on what this is US Coast Guard approval even, you know, cover to they put this U.S. Coast Guard seal next to a picture of a child jumping in a swimming pool.

 

00;31;46;07 – 00;31;53;26

Nicole Hughes

And it says on most of the different types, learn to swim. And again, there is no data to support that. There is not a.

 

00;31;53;26 – 00;31;54;27

Dr. Mona

Single.

 

00;31;55;00 – 00;32;18;02

Nicole Hughes

Steady method that supports that. A puddle jumper helps your child learn to swim, and in fact, every aquatics instructor that is qualified in as any sort of background in an actual aquatic survival in not just I’m sorry, but I mean, like, you know, swim school, like even people who have a different sort of opinion on swimming will tell you that any sort of flotation device is dangerous.

 

00;32;18;04 – 00;32;34;20

Nicole Hughes

Basically everything in the market is false. It is completely false advertising. They keep the child in a vertical position, which that’s not how you swim. Yeah. So their training or muscle memory, they have muscle memory to be trained to be vertical in the water. So then when they do learn to swim, they have to unlearn that muscle memory.

 

00;32;34;20 – 00;32;55;00

Nicole Hughes

So you’re behind. So not only is it not Olympic swimming is actually a learn to swim hindrance, I should say so. Not only does it impact that, but also the biggest thing is it gives a false sense of security. So kids say they move all right back up in the water. You know, they reach the water alone and they jump in or and again with parents there’s a false sense of security.

 

00;32;55;03 – 00;33;10;14

Nicole Hughes

And like now we have a two year old and a six month old. And of course they will never wear a puddle jumper and arterials. Already been through two rounds of it and she’s swimming and she will never wear a puddle jumper. And that means and or the pool. I never let my guard down. Not you let your guard down.

 

00;33;10;14 – 00;33;28;11

Nicole Hughes

But like when I had a five year old, three year old, a one year old, and they were in a puddle jumper, you know, maybe I could thought for a second I could. All right, goggles on. You know, while this river next to you. Right. But you can’t do that if there’s no puddle jumper. So then you’re constantly aware of where they are, you know, at all times, even when you go inside to eat finishes.

 

00;33;28;13 – 00;33;47;15

Nicole Hughes

These are the stories. These are all the stories. It’s when they go inside to make these an egg and the child reaches the water alone. It’s when they come inside of the birthday party to open the presents in the pool party, and one of them switch out and reaches the pool. And it’s when you’re packing up the car for the 4th of July and everybody’s in the front yard and you forgot your casserole dish, and you run back inside to grab it, and the three year old gets to the backyard and reaches a pool alone.

 

00;33;47;22 – 00;34;06;06

Nicole Hughes

It’s the first time ever, ever that a 15 month old has climbed out of the crib and you think they’re asleep and it’s like 630 you’re doing the dishes at. And they managed to reach the backyard pool. Yeah, these are the story. This is when drownings happen. Not only does the paddle jump getting involved in security, but it also during a paddle jump in the pool.

 

00;34;06;06 – 00;34;27;25

Nicole Hughes

Then it means you don’t know how to swim to. Right. So they’re used as a substitute. As for being able to swim to them, of course, the question I get asked often in what is what are they supposed to wear instead in the water? Right? To which I say, explain it exactly. It no devices. It is it just now quickly clarification unless you’re in natural water, right.

 

00;34;27;25 – 00;34;43;14

Nicole Hughes

Because you know, it’s natural water deep and dark and the currents so, you know, like I said, we live on a lake. Like we don’t even leave our back porch without those lifejackets on. So that is a completely different situation. But because most toddlers, the vast majority of toddler drownings are in a swimming pool, not all of them.

 

00;34;43;14 – 00;35;01;03

Nicole Hughes

So that is I. You find a loophole if you have a pool, you know. But so there’s so many different layers. But but ultimately, if your child is big enough to be wearing a puddle jumper, then they should know how to be to self rescue anyway. So they need it because that was one of them. I’m sorry, I know I’m just like full steam ahead here I love it.

 

00;35;01;03 – 00;35;01;13

Nicole Hughes

No.

 

00;35;01;13 – 00;35;17;20

Dr. Mona

And I think, you know, but what you’re describing is exactly like I mean we talk about these false securities, right? I mean, I, I agree with you. Like I like to use example like, I know this is not exactly the same, but walkers, right. Like infant walkers, we don’t recommend them because they give false security and they don’t actually teach a child to walk.

 

00;35;17;20 – 00;35;39;29

Dr. Mona

Same thing. A puddle jumper would not teach your child to swim and also could be a safety risk. And it is. And it’s exactly the false security that you mentioned as a guardian who is you know, when you you know, you have a puddle jumper and you said that perfectly. Of course, we’re all watching our children, but when they have an extra layer of protection, you’re more likely to agree, like, okay, well, let me take care of this.

 

00;35;40;00 – 00;35;56;15

Dr. Mona

I see my child, they have the puddle jumper on. We got this. But when you don’t have your child in anything and you know they can’t swim, you know they’re just in a swimsuit, you’re have an extra layer of, okay, wait, where are they? Right. It’s it is false security. I see that, and I have so many stories in with friends.

 

00;35;56;22 – 00;36;14;02

Dr. Mona

Those kids have used puddle jumpers, and even at these events, the children drowned or nearly drowned or anything. They went underwater. And then someone went racing in because the child thought they had the puddle jumper. All the parents were busy and this was like before I even became a physician. And I was like, dang, what’s happening with all these kids?

 

00;36;14;09 – 00;36;30;05

Dr. Mona

And then as I became a pediatrician, I was like, oh man. And then now that’s why seeing all those incidents, thankfully no one lost their lives. But it’s like, you know, that you don’t need them and your child’s not learning, so why use them? Is my how I look at it. You’re not your child’s. Now we know.

 

00;36;30;05 – 00;36;37;07

Nicole Hughes

That. Yes, in what’s the endgame? So you’re going to leave them until they’re five and then you’re going to the same. I mean, you know.

 

00;36;37;09 – 00;36;54;27

Dr. Mona

You’re right that you need survival skills. And I want to talk about that, like survival skills, like, well, you talk about ISR. And if you can briefly just mention, I know we could talk a whole episode about ISR, but when can, in your opinion? I know I agree with what you’ve have done and what you have done with your, you know, your children, but when would you recommend ISR?

 

00;36;54;27 – 00;37;05;09

Dr. Mona

What is it? You obviously should work because you see it with your two year old and your other children. But just a little primer on what that is so parents can decide what’s best for them. I would love for you to tell me more.

 

00;37;05;11 – 00;37;22;05

Nicole Hughes

Yeah, I love that. Thank you. And that’s what it is. This isn’t about you have to do this or you have to do that. I think the biggest thing is just swim classes are not. And I say this with all due respect to dance classes and soccer, because my kids do all this too. I’m not saying, you know, dogging those, but this should not be something you take.

 

00;37;22;05 – 00;37;41;15

Nicole Hughes

Like you should not just go to your rec center on a Saturday morning and let the 16 year old. I don’t think you should, but maybe that is a great option for your family. But it needs to be a researched option. It doesn’t need to be your first option. Like if you look at all of the choices you have and that is your best one, then choose that.

 

00;37;41;21 – 00;37;57;02

Nicole Hughes

But do not choose that because you’re just trying to check some lessons off the list. You know, which I think a lot of people do, they know this will be fun. We’ll do mommy me, you know. So one of the biggest things that the 20 1980 policy was, you know, sort of having that heavier emphasis on beginning around age one.

 

00;37;57;02 – 00;38;22;17

Nicole Hughes

And again, anyone can look this up. I mean, this is what it states in the policy, is that evidence, you know, reveals that many children, you know, around age one or older will benefit from some lessons. And this is one thing that we really it was very important us it was, placed in there and it’s just making sure that even stated in the AP policy, parents and caregivers should investigate options for swim lessons in their community before enrollment to make sure that the program meets their needs.

 

00;38;22;19 – 00;38;46;24

Nicole Hughes

And then this is a big win. I was really excited about this. High quality swim lessons include swimming in, closed, falling in, and practicing self rescue. So eyes are basically it’s self rescue survival. The swim lessons and I saw is the original, you know and they’re the ones that started all this. There are but many communities have similar options at the swim schools or in aquatic survival swim development network.

 

00;38;46;24 – 00;39;09;28

Nicole Hughes

So if you say I don’t have Ice or in my community, there are other options and I share a lot about this on my Instagram page. Like what to look for or questions to ask. And really what I would say. The best advice I could say for somebody looking for a swim lesson instructor for their child is to ask this yes or no question, because this is all that matters, really, especially when you’re talking about toddlers.

 

00;39;10;01 – 00;39;32;27

Nicole Hughes

Will these lessons teach my child how to reach the surface completely independently and get air? Because that’s really all. That’s what you need. And if they’re not willing to do that, then what are they doing then? What is the point of these lessons? And that is a yes or no question, completely independently. That is not with an instructor standing in the water next to them, not with a floating on, because a lot of people say, oh, my kid can swim great.

 

00;39;32;27 – 00;39;50;28

Nicole Hughes

I hear all the time in their puddle jumper. Yeah. I’m like, that’s not swimming, you know? So what I is or the self rescue I could do is teach the child how to roll onto their back and float and get oxygen. And the coolest thing about it is, I mean, it really is incredible. Willow are now two year old.

 

00;39;50;28 – 00;40;16;07

Nicole Hughes

She did her first round at nine months and so she could fall in and turn over on her back and just hang out there. I mean, they like, they can float indefinitely. Really? Yeah. And then now she did her second round, so she wanted to just roll to float at that age. And then once it varies, kind of, you know, a little bit per kid, but typically around like 18 months, they can learn information earlier, they can learn the swim, float, swim sequence.

 

00;40;16;07 – 00;40;39;08

Nicole Hughes

So now she’s swimming and she just turned two in May is July. She’s swimming, jumps in water, swims across the board, I mean completely no puddle jumpers, nothing. And so it isn’t just about teaching them to float, but, you know, that sort of lay the foundation of what they need to do, which is get oxygen. And the cool thing about it too is, you know, like I said earlier, how often I told Levi about water being dangerous.

 

00;40;39;10 – 00;40;59;16

Nicole Hughes

Well, this shows. Yeah. And, you know, my eyes are instructor. She’s so glad you said we are giving Willow and Teddy information about the water that they deserve to have. And that is ultimately, when it comes down to it is not fair to our children for us to tell them water is a super fun and safe place. Come on it.

 

00;40;59;16 – 00;41;16;06

Nicole Hughes

And you know, I’ve said this before, but we don’t sit in a parking lot and say, come on in. It’s super fun. You know, we don’t put them around like a couch full of guns and say, I just want to get comfortable. But this is what we do over and over and over with water. We want them to just be comfortable and not be afraid of it, but it is deadly.

 

00;41;16;09 – 00;41;34;07

Nicole Hughes

So why would we do that to them? And there’s a way to do it where we sit. You can still enjoy it. Honestly. Willow enjoys water now more than any of our kids have it too, because they were really confined to the pedal jumper and I didn’t. I didn’t realize it, obviously with my first three, you know, and they were two, I do, but she can do anything.

 

00;41;34;07 – 00;41;52;24

Nicole Hughes

She can jump in, you know, she enjoys it more. She has a respect for the water. It’s really a cool process to watch and to see it work. And now they are those Katie Nelson some schools and some programs are a little bit different, but, especially like I saw it every day for like 4 to 6 weeks for ten.

 

00;41;52;28 – 00;42;13;09

Nicole Hughes

Yeah. And I know that those are real issues that have to be addressed. Right. Now, I do think, though, if you think about it this way, what I try to tell people, the reason it every day is because they’re learning to swim and they’re building directly on what they learned the day before. You know, with my older kids, we did the whole, like, one lesson a week for 150 years is what it felt like.

 

00;42;13;12 – 00;42;31;01

Nicole Hughes

And and then it took so long to learn to swim. Now I take that back reef. Actually learned we did, like, private 45 minute lessons. And she did learn pretty quickly, my eight year old. But, you know, a lot of times parents enroll their kids in these sort of mommy and the YMCA. And I’m coming across programs, and I’m not here to say that that is bad.

 

00;42;31;03 – 00;42;48;14

Nicole Hughes

But then you’re talking much typically a learning. Yeah. Eight months of the course. So if you look at it this way, you’re really investing the time in the money upfront. And then in theory, you know, then you’re kind of done. You do still have to do it’s like, you know, you have to make sure they are maintaining it.

 

00;42;48;17 – 00;43;03;01

Nicole Hughes

So Willow did her round in May, and then we have a refresher thing here that I can do. And it, you know, once or twice a month that I just take her for like a lesson for ten minutes. Just to make sure. Okay. You know, mainly because we don’t have a pool in our backyard. If we had a pool.

 

00;43;03;04 – 00;43;20;09

Nicole Hughes

One component advisories that they teach the parents how to get in the water with the kids and help just reinforce it. Yes. Yeah. And it’s just something as simple as every time they get in the water, you know, you have to do ten flips, man. One sequence at it back and forth, and then you can do whatever you want, you know, you remember that, okay.

 

00;43;20;12 – 00;43;34;23

Nicole Hughes

And it’s just a really empowering experience. I mean, anyone who has witnessed it and watched it all the way through the entire process, you know, it’s unanimous. How is this not the standard? How is this not senior?

 

00;43;34;25 – 00;43;52;06

Dr. Mona

I what I see a lot of and, a lot of the, the negativity around ESR. So I appreciate you talking about the cost and the schedule because we looked at it and right now we can’t make it happen with the time because we both are working like crazy and the pandemic. But it’s something me and my husband have talked about because we’re grateful.

 

00;43;52;06 – 00;44;06;27

Dr. Mona

Like if we were to have a house with a pool or if we’re going to, you know, right now we’re in a pandemic, we’re not really going anywhere with water. Right now for us, but we want to help make it happen. I actually do like the concept of ESR. I think it’s great if and I, I’m very grateful that we can afford it, but it’s just the time issue.

 

00;44;06;27 – 00;44;19;10

Dr. Mona

But, if we can make that happen or get a nanny who can help us, you know, that would be awesome. But the other negative conception I see in here, which I really want to address, is when parents say my child was traumatized by.

 

00;44;19;12 – 00;44;20;15

Nicole Hughes

Oh, you’re going to see this.

 

00;44;20;17 – 00;44;38;09

Dr. Mona

Or it looks traumatizing. And from a developmental perspective, I really want to, you know, for anyone listening who says that or hears that and, you know, I, I want to remind you that anytime your child does something new, it’s not going to be roses and daisies, like your child learns how to do tummy time your child if you if you decide to do sleep training, if you decide to, your child starts to crawl.

 

00;44;38;09 – 00;44;58;07

Dr. Mona

Your child starts to walk. Your child starts school. Any new experience is never going to be or may not be happy. And that doesn’t mean the tears are negative. It doesn’t mean that the fear is negative. It’s getting used to the feelings and not shutting down those feelings. So what I say to those parents, I appreciate you and wanting to look out for the well-being of your child.

 

00;44;58;07 – 00;45;13;06

Dr. Mona

And I don’t think, though, when you’re teaching a child a skill like swimming, a lifesaving skill that I think your child is going to be fine. I mean, your child is not going to be traumatized. Like trauma. The word traumatized like when parents talk about trauma. I think they’re forget, like.

 

00;45;13;08 – 00;45;16;23

Nicole Hughes

We will try and yeah, like I have seen real trauma.

 

00;45;16;24 – 00;45;36;26

Dr. Mona

Like I’ve seen real trauma. As for myself or children, teaching them a skill is never what I define as trauma. Of course they’re going to cry. I mean, my son did traditional classes and cried, right? Like were they are very quote unquote gentle. And you know, I know that it’s going to happen whatever you do. So I’m not saying you should do ISR, I’m not me.

 

00;45;36;26 – 00;45;54;05

Dr. Mona

And you have both talked about like, but I don’t want that to be the reason why you don’t do it. Because even I can tell you, I see traditional swimming classes where children are crying, but yet we still do that, right? So yes, it may seem to you like, oh my God, this is traumatizing, but it’s not trauma that’s going to harm your child.

 

00;45;54;06 – 00;46;19;28

Dr. Mona

Like there’s a difference. There’s a loving person with you. Like it’s not like the person’s leaving you and just letting the child fend for themselves. Like, it’s not like that. It’s, hey, I’m right by you. I know that you’re capable of doing this, like, let’s teach you. And so I know I share that sentiment all the time. I absolutely share that because that word of trauma and like, trauma, like it happens with me when when parents come into my office and I’m like, well, we have to get a blood dry.

 

00;46;19;28 – 00;46;34;23

Dr. Mona

Well, is it going to hurt? I’m like, well, yeah, it’s going to hurt. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to be like it doesn’t mean that they’re going to like lose sleep over it for a month. Right. Like we got to understand that sometimes we need to go through things like, oh my gosh, yes it’s true. Anyways, I know.

 

00;46;34;26 – 00;47;07;07

Nicole Hughes

I have the audacity like, baby, this is exactly thank you for that perspective as it obviously it’s one thing for me to support it. And like you said too, I’m not saying that it’s an answer for everybody at all either. But exactly like you said, I would rather somebody make a decision because they carefully researched all of the different options and decided on the one that was best for them versus just immediately, you know, thinking that this is a sink or swim approach, whether it is throwing a kid in a water because that is not an issue.

 

00;47;07;18 – 00;47;35;00

Nicole Hughes

I just immediately, you know, brushing the facts and yes, it is. You know, you really covered, I don’t know, exact perfectly. And of course, now I have five children and my oldest 12. And yes, they have to go through things. I mean, yeah, I have seen the most growth and the happiness even for my children when they have gone through something that was hard and then, you know, came out on the other side and they feel that empowerment, like what a gift we are giving to our kids.

 

00;47;35;00 – 00;47;57;08

Nicole Hughes

Like, besides just I mean, if this wasn’t enough, you know, ability to say to yourself in the water, ability to literally save your own life, the ability to enjoy water more, really, because now you can swim and play. But beyond those two things, like giving them this gift of, you know, I believe that you can do this, and I want to empower you to go through this thing and come out on the other side having done this.

 

00;47;57;08 – 00;48;13;10

Nicole Hughes

And I will say, especially when I watched Willow do it, she was doing a two children’s interview like Levi. And so when she did her version, I was obviously very emotional to me. Then, after she finished, she was anonymous, all, you know, and she could just crawl on that, pull up on her back. I mean, like, it was nothing.

 

00;48;13;12 – 00;48;31;03

Nicole Hughes

I remember thinking, what else can you do? Like, can you circle in the clothes like I’m clearly capable? Yeah. You know, a baby was. But, I think that as far as the trauma, you know, we don’t when they. I try to tell parents, all of my kids are crying in the car seat. I mean, they just. Yeah.

 

00;48;31;03 – 00;48;49;11

Nicole Hughes

And to be honest, two so far, for for for Teddy, he’s only six months. I’m sure I’ll be five for five year when it comes with all my kids crying when they’re toddlers, basically as their favorite hobby. Like Lilo is two and she’s so great and she’s so special and she is the biggest gift to us. But.

 

00;48;49;11 – 00;49;05;23

Nicole Hughes

Right. They just cry a lot. I mean, it’s just what they do. And so, you know, when we’re in the car and they’re crying, I don’t like, pull over and say, well, let me get you out because, you know, you’re crying. Let me hold you in my lap and cuddle. You know, I’m like, you have to say there because I have to keep you safe.

 

00;49;05;26 – 00;49;26;20

Nicole Hughes

It does bother me when parent, you know, I want to shake parents and say, you know, your feeling of being emotionally nervous about this does not trump you know, you should say to your child, I care enough about your safety. I care more about your safety than I do about my feelings of being a risk on the side.

 

00;49;26;22 – 00;49;41;18

Nicole Hughes

Right? It’s just it’s just what it is. And to be fair, a lot of it is just they just don’t know, that there are so many some instructors who will say, you know, a three year old can’t win the slam, or two year old can’t learn the plan. And I’m not just like a negative, mean person.

 

00;49;41;18 – 00;49;59;00

Nicole Hughes

I genuinely believe everybody is doing what they think is best, even within the strong prevention world, if you will. You know, everyone genuinely wants to keep kids safe. There are so many different perspectives on it. And someone who says a two year old Caitlin Glenn instructor, what they’re really saying is they are not capable of teaching a two year old this man, which is fine.

 

00;49;59;00 – 00;50;16;05

Nicole Hughes

And maybe a parent doesn’t want their two year old to learn to swim, but just looking at all of the options that are available, you know, and I would just strongly encourage a parent to go, you know, I could ask that one question Will these lessons teach my child to independently get to the surface and get air? I don’t know what else you possibly could want from someone.

 

00;50;16;08 – 00;50;31;14

Nicole Hughes

And so the answer to that isn’t yes. Then this is not even worth your time. But but, you starting with that and then maybe picking a few options or some lessons, going to look, and then go back in like 2 or 3 weeks and look at those same kids and see what kind of progress they made.

 

00;50;31;24 – 00;50;47;25

Nicole Hughes

Now, with that being said, before we lost Levi, we had nothing we did not have saw. We did not have any sort of survival program. We only had sort of like the mommy and me type class for toddlers. There were a few people who taught private some lessons beginning at age three, which is what my older girls learned.

 

00;50;48;02 – 00;51;08;05

Nicole Hughes

But again, I just didn’t think he was ready for that sort of traditional approach. And that’s what I think I saw is so great, because it is so behavioral based that it isn’t based on like, sticker charts and your child’s willingness to do or not do something right. Like there’s so much more of a like you’re just training them essentially, that you need oxygen.

 

00;51;08;05 – 00;51;24;03

Nicole Hughes

And here’s how to get it. Just like you would with, you know, teaching them not to hit it right or teaching them you’re really anything. But. Yeah, it is frustrating, but I think what parents can do, like, in your situation, like you said, I mean, I know that it is so inaccessible to a lot of people who are at work.

 

00;51;24;03 – 00;51;51;05

Nicole Hughes

And now, as far as costs, there are numerous nonprofits that have scholarships, and I can send you a link for that. So cost in a lot of eyes. Our instructors have a pay it back program or they, you know, happy to to help offset some of those costs. And if it’s a true financial need. Now if you’re going to Disney and your kid plays, you know, competition baseball and you’re traveling every weekend, then you can’t afford it, right, because people don’t prioritize it.

 

00;51;51;05 – 00;52;08;01

Nicole Hughes

Right. But the other thing that parents can do, let’s say that you don’t have access to any of these type of lessons, is just don’t put them in a puddle jumper, get in the water with them. And if you have multiple kids, that may mean rethinking the way you spend time in the water. Like maybe it has to be a splash pad day and not a pool day, to be honest.

 

00;52;08;05 – 00;52;28;09

Nicole Hughes

But you know, get in the water with them. Let them feel what it’s like to be in the water. Like, don’t just drop it in there. I know what I’m saying right there. Like, let them have that feeling. Don’t let them have that buoyancy that fall in a puddle jumper. And the biggest thing I would say too, is just reach out to your local swim programs and ask them to share with them the updated AP information you know.

 

00;52;28;09 – 00;52;52;18

Nicole Hughes

Share with them about toddlers who know how to self rescue and how this is possible. And you know, I know situations where the demand has been so great that this supply got right. So the right people are asking for this, these lessons, the more they’re going to become accessible to everybody. And in fact, our YMCA has a floating program and it’s twice a week and you can choose 2 or 3 times a week.

 

00;52;52;21 – 00;53;13;00

Nicole Hughes

And since then schools who teach self rescue have, options and things like that where you sort of have more flexibility. You can pick like a Saturday morning or a Tuesday night, a Thursday afternoon. I think it’s a it would be great, you know, if there were more options like that. But you just got to like beat the drum, sound the alarm, you know, raised the demand for this.

 

00;53;13;00 – 00;53;36;11

Nicole Hughes

And then maybe it is through. You know, one thing, to be quite honest, I’ve talked with the American Red cross and the YMCA about is trying to incorporate more of this into their lessons because, you know, and really just having more of a focus on self rescue and a little bit less of a focus on jump to mommy and let seeing wheels on the bus and water and teach kids that it’s fun.

 

00;53;36;14 – 00;53;37;02

Nicole Hughes

No, this.

 

00;53;37;02 – 00;53;58;09

Dr. Mona

Is so great. I mean, I love the conversation and your agreement on the behavioral stuff with all the swimming things and just the amount of information, you know, the education awareness you’ve given me and everyone is just so great. I truly just appreciate you so much. And the conversation that we were able to have for everyone. Is there any final message you have for everyone listening today?

 

00;53;58;12 – 00;54;13;06

Nicole Hughes

I just want to start with thank you. I know that was like a lot of information that I’ve kind of, you know, putting out there. And so thank you to you and to anybody who’s made it, you know, through this. I really appreciate it. You know, I do share a lot on my Instagram. Like more kind of detailed things.

 

00;54;13;06 – 00;54;42;20

Nicole Hughes

But the biggest thing I think I would tell parents is just, you know, looking at the statistics on their child’s age and what they can do about water safety for their age and taking action accordingly. I mean, that’s really what I would say. So if you have a toddler making sure they’re layers of protection in place for them to reach the water, you know, deadbolts and for centers and self rescue lessons, if you have a teenager, they need to wear a life jacket in national water because that’s when the teenagers drown is in the natural water without a life jacket.

 

00;54;42;20 – 00;54;59;29

Nicole Hughes

Typically it’s good terms. Also, yeah. So that would really. Well, besides. Thank you. And then I appreciate this. I know that was a lot. Is just don’t panic, you know, but just do some research for your child’s ages and your geographical location and, and figure out what you can do to keep your kids safe from our water.

 

00;55;00;03 – 00;55;16;12

Dr. Mona

Oh, this is great. And. Yeah, and my big final message was about understanding that when things happen and you know, these awful things happen to families, that it can happen to any of us. And, you know, we talked about the just dropping the judgment and dropping that. Well, it wouldn’t happen to me. All those conversations don’t serve any purpose.

 

00;55;16;12 – 00;55;25;29

Dr. Mona

We just want to educate and provide awareness and compassion and love. And I just send you so much gratitude again for joining me today. And thank you for everyone who joined us for this amazing conversation.

 

00;55;26;05 – 00;55;27;02

Nicole Hughes

Thank you.

 

00;55;27;04 – 00;55;42;25

Dr. Mona

Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review, share this episode with a friend, share it on your social media. Make sure to follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram and subscribe to my YouTube channel, PedsDocTalk TV. We’ll talk to you soon.