Society wants us to raise our boys to be “tough” but boys are more complex and as parents we need to help them navigate the cultural pressures and protect their emotional well-being. We need to understand the impact of feeling inadequate and the importance of fostering empathy towards boys during their development. This week, I welcome Ruth Whippman, an author, essayist and cultural critic, to discuss how we can support boys in embracing their emotions and navigating their growth.

 

She joins me to discuss:

• How boys face indirect societal pressures that discourage emotional expression
• Why feelings of inadequacy regarding masculinity can trigger harmful behaviors, including violence.
• The need to recognize boys’ struggles and foster a positive narrative that empowers them.

 

To connect with Ruth Whippman follow her on Instagram @ruthwhippman and Substack @ruthwhippman. Check out all her resources at https://www.ruthwhippman.com/. For more, purchase Ruth’s book BoyMom: Reimagining Boyhood in the Age of Impossible Masculinity.

 

Our podcasts are also now on YouTube. If you prefer a video podcast with closed captioning, check us out there and subscribe to PedsDocTalk TV.

 

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on the PedsDocTalk Podcast Sponsorships page of the website.

00;00;00;02 – 00;00;21;03
Ruth Whippman
Because we don’t give boys those channels to express their sadness, you know, and their feelings of depression. It often comes out in boys. It’s like increased aggression or substance use problems or bad behavior. Yeah. And then we compound that. So it’s sort of like this vicious circle where we don’t give them ways to express sadness. And so they express it in these other ways.

00;00;21;08 – 00;00;29;06
Ruth Whippman
Then we don’t see it as a mental health problem and we discipline them. And, you know, so we tend to see boys as bad, not sad.

00;00;29;08 – 00;00;51;24
Dr. Mona
Welcome back to the Peds Doc Talk podcast. Thank you for keeping the show a top parenting podcast in the United States. We are changing lives, educating people and raising loving and loved kids. And you are a part of this movement. So thanks for sharing the show and keep doing so. This is how it continues to grow. On today’s episode, we’re diving into a topic that has never been more critical.

00;00;51;24 – 00;01;17;05
Dr. Mona
The way we raise boys in a culture of impossible masculinity. Phrases like boys will be boys or man up, or don’t be a sissy, or stop acting like a girl, or don’t cry, boys, don’t cry. Send a message that limits their emotional and relational potential. In a society that champions progress, we are still placing boys in a narrow box, tying masculinity to stoicism, dominance and detachment.

00;01;17;10 – 00;01;49;03
Dr. Mona
But what happens when these traits start breeding? Isolation, stifled vulnerability, and even misogyny. Today I’m joined by Ruth Wittman, author of Boy Mom Reimagining Boyhood in the Age of Impossible Masculinity, to explore how cultural narratives cheat boys and ultimately, our entire society. We talk about emotional labor, the pressure to conform to outdated ideals, and the growing trend of young men turning away from feminism, including how many young men in the United States, including those from Gen Z, are gravitating towards certain political views.

00;01;49;04 – 00;02;13;15
Dr. Mona
Because of this, we discuss how we can better support boys to navigate these challenges, foster healthy relationships, and embrace a full range of human emotions. Let’s unpack this complex landscape and discover what it really means to raise boys better. In January, I’ll be inviting Ruth back to chat about how toxic masculinity and this impossible masculinity and political identity can collide.

00;02;13;23 – 00;02;22;03
Dr. Mona
So make sure to subscribe to the podcast so you don’t miss that episode. Let’s get to today’s conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today, Ruth.

00;02;22;05 – 00;02;23;29
Ruth Whippman
Thank you so much for having me on the show.

00;02;24;05 – 00;02;40;24
Dr. Mona
I am excited, you know, I was chatting with you before we recorded that. I discovered your book after a friend had shared it on her stories. And I was like, this is great. I’m I have one boy, one girl. But I love reading things about perspective of boy moms and what it is. And then I took a deeper dive into what your book was about.

00;02;40;24 – 00;03;01;12
Dr. Mona
And it was more than just boy mom, it’s about breaking a lot of this again, masculinity, the culture that has come up in raising boys from past generations. And also we see it now. And I’m just so excited to share your wisdom with my listeners. But before we get into this amazing conversation, tell us more about yourself and the inspiration for your book.

00;03;01;17 – 00;03;27;00
Ruth Whippman
So, as you said in your intro, I, I’m a writer, a journalist I’ve always identified as a feminist, and I’ve always been very much and, you know, pushing the cause of women’s rights, women’s, equality, all the rest of it. And and then I am also a mother of three boys. And so sometimes those I mean, I think those identities are very much aligned, you know, feminist and mothers of boys, mother of boys, and they should be aligned.

00;03;27;07 – 00;03;57;27
Ruth Whippman
But sometimes they can fail and conflict. And I think that’s that tension and those kind of complicated, conflicted feelings. That was really what inspired me to write this book. My third son was born right as the MeToo movement was exploding, and we had just had this huge cultural reckoning around masculinity, toxic masculinity, boys, men. And it became so heavily politicized that, you know, for me, it was what was happening in the home, it was what was happening in the culture.

00;03;57;27 – 00;04;05;29
Ruth Whippman
And I just wanted to dig into all of it and just be really honest about the conflicts and difficulties involved. It’s not simple.

00;04;06;01 – 00;04;22;25
Dr. Mona
I love it, and I love that you are giving the perspective of being someone who’s, you know, who describes herself as a feminist, who has three boys, and you just said it perfectly that it applies to all of us, right? I think people think that, oh, feminism, that you have daughters. And that’s no, but how are we going to teach our boys how to survive in this culture?

00;04;22;25 – 00;04;35;09
Dr. Mona
And the reason I love your book is that you not only tackle the societal expectations you tackle, like you just alluded to the political. You know how this is actually politics and also how it impacts mental health for boys especially. And I think.

00;04;35;09 – 00;04;36;03
Ruth Whippman
This is.

00;04;36;06 – 00;05;00;23
Dr. Mona
I, I’m, I’m gushing as I just get into this conversation because I always feel the same. You know, I think there’s so much stereotypes and I think there’s so much about, you know, that tough guy and it does so much more harm than good than good to raise children and especially our boys with this sort of mentality. But one of the things that you talk about in your book, you know, society often celebrates girls with messages like, you can do anything.

00;05;00;23 – 00;05;14;12
Dr. Mona
And, you know, with boys, they continue to socialize boys through phases like, you know, boys will be boys. That’s just them being a boy. How do these narratives limit boys potential, and what new language should we be using when we discuss boys?

00;05;14;15 – 00;05;40;19
Ruth Whippman
So again, it’s a really complicated thing because obviously all those messages about the future is female. You can do anything. The sky’s the limit. Figures are coming from a great place, which is for centuries, girls were oppressed until they couldn’t do anything and boys could do everything. So we see why that happened. But I think in this cultural moment, you know, we have a very inspiring narrative and very inspiring language in the way that we talk about girls, and rightly so.

00;05;40;19 – 00;06;00;19
Ruth Whippman
I’m all for it. But we still talk about boys in this quite limiting way. Like, as a mother of boys, I hear it all the time. You know, boys are like dogs. All they need is like exercise and food and just like, wear them out or like, boys are simple or boys, you know, boys can’t sit still. Boys don’t like reading in a boys.

00;06;00;21 – 00;06;22;01
Ruth Whippman
So it’s all the stuff. And it’s not that there’s no truth in it. I think there is sort of cultural truth in some of those like stereotypes, but it’s just, I think we’ve started to see boys in this very limited way and the ways in which, you know, they have. I think we talk a lot about power and success and be the CEO and be the supreme Court justice and whatever for girls.

00;06;22;01 – 00;06;39;12
Ruth Whippman
But I think where boys have historically lost out is more things like in terms of emotional vulnerability, connection, social skills, those sort of softer skills. But because we don’t value those skills, we don’t really see it as a loss. So it’s kind of fun to be like in our culture, to be like, oh, boys don’t need that stuff.

00;06;39;12 – 00;06;48;25
Ruth Whippman
They’re just these simple little dogs, these simple little creatures, and not really think about where they’re losing out and how we could talk about them in a more expansive way.

00;06;48;27 – 00;07;08;20
Dr. Mona
Absolutely. And I see that, you know, I am raising a boy and a girl and the stereotypes that come from external, you know, from my in-laws, from my more so my in-laws. I shouldn’t say that, but I see it, you know, like my boy, my my boy really loves to play with unicorns and loves to be. He’s very sensitive and I’m sensitive and my husband’s very sensitive.

00;07;08;20 – 00;07;27;12
Dr. Mona
And the comments that are made to my son, but that are not made to my daughter, it’s so mindboggling. But it’s what I’ve always known. But when you see it in front of you happening to children that you’re trying to raise to be emotion, emotionally intelligent, you know, to be good members of society, to love, and you get these outward, you know, commentary.

00;07;27;12 – 00;07;32;24
Dr. Mona
It really is in your face, like, wow, this is really prevalent in 2024 still. Yeah.

00;07;32;24 – 00;07;36;21
Ruth Whippman
I don’t know if you saw the movie Inside Out. Yeah, franchises Inside Out.

00;07;36;21 – 00;07;38;20
Dr. Mona
And Inside love it. Yeah. And it was.

00;07;38;20 – 00;08;01;13
Ruth Whippman
Like it’s a great movie. And it’s like this whole world of like complex interiority for this girl. And, you know, her emotions and how she tracks her mom’s emotions and her friend’s emotions and how her mom tracks her emotions and every time a male character comes on the screen as the same joke, it’s just like you go inside the dad’s head or like the boy he was in the first movie, this sort of boyfriend.

00;08;01;15 – 00;08;20;08
Ruth Whippman
And it’s just like the we a chance, like all the emotions and it’s very essential, I say. And we think it’s funny because it’s like we think it’s like punching up as a joke. It’s like men have all this power. Everything’s great for them, so it’s fine to stereotype them. It’s fine to make fun of them. It’s fine to like, limit them.

00;08;20;11 – 00;08;43;00
Ruth Whippman
But actually, I don’t think it is fine. I think my boys are losing out massively in terms of like social and emotional stuff in our culture. Really important. The ability to make connections, the ability to be in touch with our own emotions and emotional life and to just be like, boys don’t need that. That just dumb and idiotic is really giving them a really problematic message, in my opinion.

00;08;43;03 – 00;08;43;10
Ruth Whippman
Yeah.

00;08;43;12 – 00;09;02;27
Dr. Mona
And I think that it goes on to what I was just going to asked about, like you mentioned in your book, like there’s subtle ways that boys are being taught that emotional labor and relationship management are for girls. And how does this impact their ability to form healthy emotional relationships as they grow up? Now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors.

00;09;02;29 – 00;09;22;29
Ruth Whippman
Yeah, so I noticed it first. So, you know, when I have my first two sons, I was really kind of blind to all this. I just didn’t flag it in the culture. But then I remember I was with my three boys, we met in the bookstore, we saw this magazine, and it was like clearly aimed at girls. It had this like pink sparkly cover and like a friendship bracelet giveaway.

00;09;23;02 – 00;09;44;23
Ruth Whippman
And I looked in the magazine and the first story was about this girl who’d been invited to these two birthday parties that were happening at the same time. She was really stressed out. She didn’t want to disappoint either one of the friends and not go to the birthday party. So she concocted this scheme and she was like running between the two parties and going to one and then having the cake and go back to the other one and playing the games.

00;09;44;25 – 00;09;52;16
Ruth Whippman
And I was like, you know, this is emotional labor, and my boys will never read a story with a boy character doing that kind of work.

00;09;52;17 – 00;09;53;14
Dr. Mona
Right? Right.

00;09;53;14 – 00;10;18;24
Ruth Whippman
Every girl will read a million stories about friendships and emotions and relationships and like drama and community in that way. And all the stories that my boys read are about fighting and battles and competition. There’s a hero. There’s a villain. Yeah, one’s a hero. Someone gets killed. And so we, story by story, we are giving girls the message that this kind of emotional work is their responsibility.

00;10;18;26 – 00;10;35;25
Ruth Whippman
So in one sense, it’s really hard on girls and, you know, girls and women that they take on too much of this kind of labor. But actually, boys and men are really missing out because those things are the fundamentals of intimacy and human connection, and we’re giving them the message that this is not for them.

00;10;35;28 – 00;10;52;17
Dr. Mona
Absolutely. And I know this is going to feel like not related, but it is like we think we look at homelessness, like homelessness. And in America, there’s way more homeless men than there are women. And, you know, parents, people are like, why is that? Why is male? And it’s a cultural narrative that women are more likely to seek help.

00;10;52;21 – 00;11;08;07
Dr. Mona
We’ll get into all that mental health stuff. Women are more likely not to fall onto the streets because yes, they have community. They have resources. They’re more likely to, like you said, have the relationship management, have the emotional labor that impacts us in so many ways and again, create friendships.

00;11;08;11 – 00;11;33;28
Ruth Whippman
Connection is connected and part of a community like boys are not encouraged to see themselves as part of a community that’s not encouraged to see themselves as the hero on his journey, who will save the day. And it doesn’t build those skills that you actually need to be a connected human being. And there is a crisis with male loneliness at the moment, with all the adolescent boys and men, you know, and I see it with my friendships versus my husband’s friendships.

00;11;33;28 – 00;11;42;11
Ruth Whippman
I see it with, like all the adult men I know in my life in America who are really struggling with connection. Yeah. And it’s it’s a serious problem.

00;11;42;14 – 00;12;02;20
Dr. Mona
My husband is very open about this. He is like, we literally two nights ago had a big conversation about how he’s lonely. And when he said those words to me, I was like, thank you for telling me. He’s like, I’m really lonely. And I was like, I love you. But I don’t have any good friends that I can talk to about my feelings and how pure and sweet I’m getting teary eyed because he’s a grown man.

00;12;02;20 – 00;12;13;15
Dr. Mona
He’s successful in his career, but he doesn’t have that. And I think, you know, going into what you’re talking about, that friendship crisis amongst young men, but also older men like my, you know, people in their 40s, you know, how.

00;12;13;15 – 00;12;14;15
Ruth Whippman
Does it lately, how do.

00;12;14;15 – 00;12;22;21
Dr. Mona
The cultural narratives around masculinity push boys away from forming these intimate relationships? And what can we do as parents to address this?

00;12;22;23 – 00;12;44;09
Ruth Whippman
So I think it’s a combination of what we don’t teach boys and what we do teach boys, so that don’t teach boys peace is what we’ve just been talking about. So they don’t get those stories about relationship to about friendships, about solving friendship narratives. And if those do show up in the movies and books and shows, that kind of a little subplot that just kind of happens before they go off on the big adventure.

00;12;44;16 – 00;13;13;26
Ruth Whippman
So that kind of piece is missing for them. But then they also get this story about masculinity, which is be tough, be strong, suppress your emotions. Don’t you know, be kind of bulletproof in that way? Don’t be vulnerable. Being vulnerable is emasculating. Yeah. And I interviewed for boys. Mom. I interviewed a huge range of boys, really different backgrounds, different races, different social and economic classes, and they all had the same language around it.

00;13;13;26 – 00;13;34;16
Ruth Whippman
They all said, I can’t be vulnerable with my friends, and that’s a real problem. And it got to the point where they couldn’t even identify those kind of emotions in themselves. They were so used to suppressing them. And this is a process that starts from babyhood, that we encourage girls to sort of express their emotions, to feel their emotions, to talk about them, share them.

00;13;34;16 – 00;14;00;08
Ruth Whippman
We engage, you know, as parents, as adults, we engage with girls around their emotions so much more than we do for boys. So it’s this process. It builds and builds. And then by adulthood, they really are struggling with that. And this is still very, very true in our culture. You know we think we’ve changed. And it’s not like, you know, we’re beating boys out of their emotions, but we’re still communicating this narrative in so many subtle ways to them.

00;14;00;10 – 00;14;15;20
Dr. Mona
I see it, you know, I have a like I said, I have a young boy who’s very sensitive to his feelings. And I he’s only four and a half or almost five at the time of this recording. And he is very insightful. And I’m very proud of us as parents for raising a child who has that emotional intelligence that only five years of age.

00;14;15;25 – 00;14;33;02
Dr. Mona
But I find my husband getting frustrated with him sometimes when he is being more sensitive. And I turn to him and I’m like, he understands his feelings. Like, this is our perceptions on what we feel when Veera, my daughter, is the same age and does it. I’m pretty sure we are going to think differently. And you’re going to say, oh sweetie, what is it?

00;14;33;02 – 00;14;48;09
Dr. Mona
You’re a girl and I. I’m watching that like, I and I am very attuned to that because I know that there is a, sex difference here, the fact that they’re boys and girls and how they’re, like I said earlier, perceived by not only society but parents too. Right? Because of the cultural pressures we’ve been fed growing up.

00;14;48;09 – 00;14;48;23
Dr. Mona
So.

00;14;48;26 – 00;15;10;01
Ruth Whippman
You know that. Yeah. It’s really there’s so much research on this that shows, you know, and there’s this classic study that they did in the 70s that they gave, babies to adults, and they didn’t say what, well, they were neutrally dressed in just a diaper. They didn’t know if they were boys or girls. They gay. They told half the adults that they were holding a boy, that they were holding a girl.

00;15;10;04 – 00;15;30;06
Ruth Whippman
When that baby cried, if they believed they were holding a boy, regardless of what this child actually was, if they believed they were holding a boy, they interpreted that cries as anger. And if they thought they were holding a girl, when the baby cried, they thought they were scared. And it’s already, you know, you’re masculinized and you’re projecting all these qualities.

00;15;30;06 – 00;15;59;08
Ruth Whippman
And that goes on that same principle all the way through childhood. We attribute anger to our sons. We don’t engage with them as much about their emotions. We use different language when we analyze that vocabulary that people parents use with boys versus girls, they use emotion words with girls at far higher rates and kind of competition and winning type vocabulary with boys, dads, especially, I think dads know the kind of costs of, you know, being weak or vulnerable.

00;15;59;08 – 00;16;05;16
Ruth Whippman
So they want to sort of help their sons be tough and man up. They do it out of love. But I think it’s misguided.

00;16;05;18 – 00;16;26;19
Dr. Mona
Absolutely. I, I agree, I think it is and I think it in the end will do more harm than good. And you talk about the, you know, official surveys show that girls report higher levels of mental health challenges. But then you argue that boys actually face a silent epidemic of depression. Can you elaborate on what that means and what it shows and what we can do to change that?

00;16;26;21 – 00;16;44;15
Ruth Whippman
So there’s this issue of underreporting, when it comes to male mental health. And it’s for the same reason why men are struggling with their mental health, which is they’re not allowed to be in touch with their emotions, they’re not allowed to express them or name them. So if someone you know is taking a survey and they’re like, you know, are you feeling depressed?

00;16;44;19 – 00;17;01;21
Ruth Whippman
A girl has been socialized for many years to be like, oh yes, and these are the feelings I’m having. And let me tell you about them. Whereas a boy has been socialized to that point to say, I’m fine, there’s no problem. You know, I’m not depressed. And to see depression or anxiety is something really shameful that they shouldn’t admit to.

00;17;01;23 – 00;17;28;02
Ruth Whippman
And so, you know, and I noticed this when I was interviewing boys, it takes a really long time to get them to express this stuff. They will eventually. But if you’re doing a checkbox survey, it’s not going to come up. And so there’s a real problem with, underreporting of male mental health problems. And I think also it’s like often because we don’t give boys those channels to express their sadness, you know, and their feelings of depression.

00;17;28;02 – 00;17;46;14
Ruth Whippman
It often comes out in boys. It’s like increased aggression or substance use problems or bad behavior. Yeah. And then we compound that. So it’s sort of like this vicious circle where we don’t give them ways to express a sadness, and so they express it in these other ways. Then we don’t see it as a mental health problem and we discipline them.

00;17;46;14 – 00;17;50;24
Ruth Whippman
And, you know, so we tend to see boys as bad, not sad.

00;17;50;27 – 00;18;10;02
Dr. Mona
I love that you just talked about the unhealthy coping skills like you talked about, you know, turning to alcohol, drugs and I yeah, I think this conversation is so important because I don’t think many parents realize the harm that this can cause to young men. Like, you know, when you’re raising a little boy and you say, you know, don’t cry or don’t you know, we’re not encouraging the feelings.

00;18;10;09 – 00;18;30;06
Dr. Mona
I think people are not realizing what kind of man we’re raising in this world because they’re so focused on the now. Right? They’re focused on. Right. Okay. Just I need to move in the moment left. They’re bothering. They’re annoying. But you are right on that. This is about how is that little boy going to learn how to cope when every person in their life told them that it’s not okay to feel.

00;18;30;08 – 00;18;51;16
Ruth Whippman
Upset and then not, you know, and that getting that message in so many different ways. So even if you’re not directly saying, it’s not okay to fail, which probably not many people are saying, but it’s these indirect messages from everything they’re watching, everything they’re reading, the way that the adults respond to them, what they get rewarded for, you know, what they get sort of subtly punished for.

00;18;51;18 – 00;19;13;04
Ruth Whippman
And so, yeah, it has this huge impact down the line. And every boy that I spoke to and interviewed for this book mentioned it in one way or another. And I think now there’s even this new cultural pressure because the old pressure was like, man up, don’t express your feelings. That’s an age old thing for men. But now I think there’s this new narrative where it’s like toxic masculinity.

00;19;13;05 – 00;19;35;12
Ruth Whippman
You’re so privileged. Everything you know, you benefit from everything. This system really works for you. Shut up. Be quiet. Time to let everybody else have a turn to talk. Which is right in one sense. You know, we do need to give other people in other communities, other genders a voice. But at the same time, it’s not as though everybody’s been listening to men’s feelings all along.

00;19;35;13 – 00;19;38;28
Ruth Whippman
They’ve listened to their opinions, but not so much to their feelings.

00;19;39;00 – 00;20;06;05
Dr. Mona
Yeah. Oh gosh, this is so insightful. I cannot wait to read the book. I mean, I said it earlier, but I found out about your book, I it’s en route to get here and I am just so excited to really dive in and go. Yes, I feel it’s and especially like you said, because even though this is a book about boys like it matters for like, you know, you said, being a feminist writer like it matters for me in this world, trying to raise women who may be with boys in their future.

00;20;06;05 – 00;20;06;27
Dr. Mona
Right. In terms of.

00;20;06;27 – 00;20;07;14
Ruth Whippman
Absolutely.

00;20;07;16 – 00;20;22;22
Dr. Mona
I want the best for everybody that encounters a boy. And I want the best for these boys, too, so that they don’t grow up in the cycle of, like, feeling like they can’t be and that they’re, you know, they’re just, yes, bottled up with aggression and anger that they couldn’t process and such.

00;20;22;26 – 00;20;51;28
Ruth Whippman
And, you know, I think sometimes it’s this tendency to see it as a zero sum game. It’s like if we benefit boys and we’re taking away from girls and women, it’s not the case in a to raise a generation of emotionally healthy men will benefit everybody. It’s a huge deal when it comes to violence. You know, the kind of messages we give boys about masculinity and shame and who they need to be is causing, you know, is one of the key drivers of male violence, male violence against women.

00;20;51;28 – 00;20;57;23
Ruth Whippman
You know, this is not in opposition to the feminist ideal. This is very much part of it.

00;20;57;26 – 00;21;15;27
Dr. Mona
Now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors. I would love to hear like more about that. Like in terms of the narrative of masculinity, makes it feel like they’re dominant to women. And that’s why there’s violence or what is it that makes them feel like that is how they are going to, you know, communicate with their partner or someone else, like a female.

00;21;16;00 – 00;21;17;21
Dr. Mona
How does that violence connection come in?

00;21;17;24 – 00;21;35;01
Ruth Whippman
So what is one of the most fascinating things that I found out when I was doing the research is that it’s not so much masculinity itself, you know, that sort of be dominant, be strong. Although that comes into it, the, the one of the biggest drivers of violence is this feeling of shame. So it’s this feeling that you’re not masculine enough.

00;21;35;02 – 00;21;52;19
Ruth Whippman
There’s this like ideal that you have to be like a real man. You know, that you have to be meet this like and in the title of the book I call it. Right, boyhood in the Age of Impossible Masculinity. And it’s this idea that you have to be totally tough, strong, never show any weakness, never show any flaws.

00;21;52;19 – 00;22;11;11
Ruth Whippman
And I think it’s when men start to feel that shame that they’re not meeting that standard. Yeah, that is when violence starts to happen. And there’s all these studies that show they call this masculine discrepancy stress. So it’s kind of this fancy way of a feeling of describing this feeling of shame and emasculation, that you’re not meeting the standards.

00;22;11;13 – 00;22;34;03
Ruth Whippman
And when men feel very stressed about that, that is when they start to commit domestic violence, intimate partner violence, sexual violence. And, also, you know, you sit in the school shootings. That’s the kind of classic profile a boy who feels like he’s not meeting society’s standards for manhood. You know that he’s not a real man, that he’s emasculated, he’s ashamed.

00;22;34;10 – 00;22;42;27
Ruth Whippman
And that’s when they go out and get a gun and shoot, you know, a bunch of people to kind of reclaim that lost masculinity. It’s tragic.

00;22;42;29 – 00;22;58;14
Dr. Mona
It’s tragic. I mean, it’s it’s exactly what I feel. And you’re obviously you. I wouldn’t be I’m not surprised that you put it so eloquently into words on this show, but also in that book, because it is such a sad reality that we see and, you know, we’re blaming all these other things like, you know, this well, this is the reason.

00;22;58;14 – 00;23;17;27
Dr. Mona
But what is, you know, what is happening here with the people, the kids that we’re raising here. It’s like definitely an issue. And, you know, one of the biggest things that I love that you chatted about was the this drive for young boys and men from Gen Z and Gen Alpha to increasingly identify as conservative, especially as their way of rejecting feminism.

00;23;17;27 – 00;23;39;14
Dr. Mona
And I think about, like the most successful media stars, like, Andrew Tate, who, yeah, people are familiar, or even Joe Rogan, you know, the sort of the sort of like culture of manhood and like rejecting evidence, like, I mean, there’s so many of these people are like rejecting evidence based medicine. I’m like, why are we going so, so extreme?

00;23;39;16 – 00;23;50;05
Dr. Mona
Are there are there societal, cultural, educational shifts that contribute to that? Like, why is it that this generation is seemingly, you know, doing that as a, as a way of reclaiming themselves or what?

00;23;50;07 – 00;24;10;12
Ruth Whippman
So I think there’s there’s a lot of complicated things going on here. So the Andrew Tate to this world are really sort of tapping into something that boys have been primed to feel right from birth. So if you listen to Andrew Tate’s videos, he uses a lot of like superhero metaphors. He’s like always going on about how he’s I’m Batman, I’m in a cave, I’m an Alpha.

00;24;10;12 – 00;24;29;14
Ruth Whippman
I’m have all these fast cars, and these are all the tropes of boyhood that we encourage boys in a superhero, and we haven’t interrogated them very much. So, you know, we’ve sort of talked a lot about like, princess culture for girls and how it can give bad image, a bad body image messages, bad messages about agency, about being rescued.

00;24;29;16 – 00;24;57;19
Ruth Whippman
We haven’t really interrogated that kind of superhero masculinity trope for boys. So Andrew Tate’s already tapping into this sort of fear innate that’s already there in boys. And I think in this particular cultural moment, you know, this might create a generation of boys that were going through puberty when the MeToo movement happened, then now’s a voting age. They have spent their entire adolescence in the kind of shadow of this conversation about toxic masculinity.

00;24;57;24 – 00;25;14;18
Ruth Whippman
They’ve heard over and over again your bad, your harmful time to shut up. You’re so privileged. And they’re like, this isn’t this isn’t how I feel. You know? It’s like the old story and the new story. The old story, you know, is telling them to man up, squash their emotions. The new story is telling them to be quiet.

00;25;14;18 – 00;25;32;15
Ruth Whippman
They’re so privileged. Everything’s great for them, that toxic. They’re harmful. And I think they’re pushing back. They’re like, this is this is impossible. I don’t know how to be. Here’s someone telling me how I can just straightforwardly be a man, you know, be an alpha, be all those things that you know, that I’ve been told that I have to be.

00;25;32;18 – 00;25;40;20
Ruth Whippman
And it’s pulling them in. And I think that if the left and the feminist movement wants to engage boys, we have to stop telling them that they suck and they’re terrible.

00;25;40;20 – 00;25;41;18
Dr. Mona
Right?

00;25;41;20 – 00;25;45;27
Ruth Whippman
You know, nobody’s going to go for that. What group is going to be like, great, I’m going to.

00;25;45;27 – 00;25;48;15
Dr. Mona
Latch on in letting you know.

00;25;48;15 – 00;25;58;23
Ruth Whippman
You hate me. So therefore, you know, we need to find a narrative that recognizes that things are hard for boys, too, and that gives them some empathy and some grace.

00;25;58;25 – 00;26;10;26
Dr. Mona
Yeah. And, you know, talking about the MeToo movement that you mentioned earlier, I mean, obviously, do you see how that has created any negative perception for men or like, has that been mostly positive in your opinion or what have you seen?

00;26;10;28 – 00;26;30;04
Ruth Whippman
It’s a really tricky question because obviously I am and this is where I open the book. I open the book when I’m giving birth to a third son. Right. As the MeToo movement exploding. And the feminist part of me is like, wonderful women have a voice. Finally, we’re speaking out about these things. Nobody has been listening. We’ve been I feel like we’ve been saying this forever.

00;26;30;04 – 00;26;54;12
Ruth Whippman
No one’s been listening. We haven’t been taken seriously. So I’m so glad that that happened. I’m so glad that women have that voice. I’m so glad that sexual predators are being called out. Yeah, but I think what resulted was this like, narrative about boys and men that was so negative. And it’s understandable where it came from. You know, we have righteous anger, but for this generation of boys, they didn’t do those things.

00;26;54;12 – 00;27;12;04
Ruth Whippman
You know, they were not part of it. It’s psychologically so unhealthy to grow up sort of being written off as a person before years and get started being told that you’re toxic and harmful. And I think that we really, really need to talk about boys in a new and different and more hopeful way.

00;27;12;07 – 00;27;28;01
Dr. Mona
I love that, and I feel the same way. I feel like, you know, I obviously, you know, I have a I have a husband. So the only really people male, I mean, I talk to about it was that and I said, you know, I’m like, this is really important. And, you know, his his thing is like that. There was a feeling of culture of like, well, what are we?

00;27;28;01 – 00;27;54;04
Dr. Mona
You know, what is it going to look like? What is it going to feel like? And how are we, you know, what is this messaging? And I love how you talked about how the left, if the left wants to get male voters, they can’t talk about how they suck. And I think there was an extreme movement that happened where, of course, we want to embrace the, the, the real violence that was happening, sexual violence, harm all of that, but not putting all men in that group and saying, yeah, all boys are just like that together and saying, well, all of y’all are just out to get me and stuff like that.

00;27;54;04 – 00;28;14;08
Dr. Mona
When it’s not all boys like you are raising. I imagine three amazing boys, and I would love to ask just to follow up push about that. I hope to be raising an amazing boy and an amazing girl that understands that they’re more than just the chromosome that they were, you know, we’re given right? But you’re right, I think I love that changing how we talk to our boys about being boys.

00;28;14;15 – 00;28;42;10
Dr. Mona
And as a boy, mom, I my last question, maybe. How how has it been raising boys with this understanding and insight that you have in a world that isn’t caught up with you, meaning you are obviously very enlightened. And I and I love this and I love this conversation, I feel right on with you in terms of, relating to you, but do you ever get frustrated like you’re trying to raise these boys and you’re like, everyone just fricking read my book, and can you do the same thing with your boys?

00;28;42;10 – 00;28;46;20
Dr. Mona
How do you navigate being a boy, mom? Being having written this amazing.

00;28;46;22 – 00;29;02;09
Ruth Whippman
Yeah. Oh, well, thank you so much for for that. There’s congrats. I mean, this book is very much a journey. So if you if you read it, you’ll see that all the way through. I’m like conflicted. And I’m like, well, you know, and I’m going way over to the one side of the argument and then way back to the other.

00;29;02;09 – 00;29;28;07
Ruth Whippman
And I really write through all those conflicted feelings. And sometimes I’m like, you know, but, you know, and my own boys, you know, were pretty in line with a lot of the stereotypes. I’m like, I want them to embrace their feelings and talk about their feelings and, and nurture and all of that. And that often like super into, like Nerf guns and battle stories and, you know, so I write through all those conflicts and I try to embrace the fact that this is complicated.

00;29;28;07 – 00;29;57;15
Ruth Whippman
And I am definitely not some like, enlightened guru who’s like, do what I say. If I like my way, I know boys will turn out perfect. It’s complicated. But you know, and kids of people who don’t always do the exact thing that you say and they don’t want to sort of step in line with your agenda. And so I feel like for me, it’s been a journey for me, it’s been kind of a long game, and there have been moments along the way where I’ve been like, oh God, I can’t believe I’m writing about boys and here’s my, boys like, pummeling each other on the living room rug.

00;29;57;15 – 00;30;14;27
Ruth Whippman
And how could I take any time to be any kind of expert, which I don’t. I’m not an expert. I’m a mom and a journalist who’s trying to figure this stuff out. But you know, what I will say is that this in the longer term, this stuff has really paid off with my boys. They’re so thoughtful and sweet.

00;30;14;27 – 00;30;34;08
Ruth Whippman
I love some of the things when I was despairing when they were five, six, seven. Now they’re like 14 and 11, the older two. And my youngest is six and, and they’re, you know, I’ve see the seeds of what I planted, you know, starting to flower. And it’s really special and lovely to watch.

00;30;34;10 – 00;30;56;23
Dr. Mona
How beautiful I love that. I love it, you know, I’m obviously I have younger children, but I love hearing that perspective. And, you know, obviously having this amazing book out there and you know, how you connect that with your own personal life. I really appreciate you answering that very personal question. It means a lot. You know, I think a lot of parents listening again, you said it perfectly think that authors and doctors and professionals have it all right.

00;30;56;23 – 00;31;19;14
Dr. Mona
But we’re all doing the best that we can. But we like to share the information that we have and what we feel is right. And I love that you are doing that with this book. And one of the things that I ask all of my guests is, you know, share a final, uplifting message for everyone listening. This is a message, you know, after we discuss all these things, the final take home that really can just, you know, leave people with a happy, happy feeling in their heart.

00;31;19;14 – 00;31;23;13
Dr. Mona
What would you say related to this conversation that you would want to share with my listeners today?

00;31;23;16 – 00;31;48;24
Ruth Whippman
So I feel very hopeful. I believe that change can happen. We have seen change when it comes to women. When it comes to LGBTQ violence, where it’s gone, we know that cultural change can happen. I’ve seen it in my lifetime and I want to say it with boys, and I feel very hopeful that if we keep having these conversations, if we keep talking about it, if we keep trying, if we keep, you know, trying and failing and trying again, then this change will happen.

00;31;49;02 – 00;32;05;25
Dr. Mona
Yes. Thank you so much. And put that book, put that book up again for any of us, of our listeners. Yes, yes. Tuning in on YouTube, you can see the book. I will be obviously linking that as well. Tell people where they can purchase the book and obviously how they can stay connected with your work and your mission.

00;32;05;27 – 00;32;26;25
Ruth Whippman
So, you can buy the book anywhere that you buy books and you can find me, I write a Substack. It’s called I Blame Society, where I write about a lot of these issues today with my head and men and gender and feminism and some other stuff, too. So you can find me on Substack or at my website, Ruth whitman.com and Ruth Whitman on Instagram.

00;32;26;27 – 00;32;42;08
Dr. Mona
Thank you. Ruth, so much. I will be linking all of these resources that she mentioned in our show notes, as well as in our, YouTube channel, comment section and caption as well. But this is an incredible conversation. And please get this book. Like I said, even if it’s not something that was even on your radar, you’re like, I don’t need it doesn’t matter.

00;32;42;08 – 00;32;50;13
Dr. Mona
It does matter. Like what she just said and the discussion that we had, this is so important for boys, for females and for society. So thank you for joining me today.

00;32;50;16 – 00;32;53;03
Ruth Whippman
Thank you so much. It’s been a real pleasure.

00;32;53;05 – 00;33;11;24
Dr. Mona
Wasn’t this conversation incredible? I cannot wait to have Ruth back on. You have to check out her book. And remember, if you want to win a copy of her book as well as, of course, from Pete’s Dog Talk, please visit my Instagram on the day of debut of this podcast to win a book. As we’ve explored today, the narratives around masculinity are more than just words.

00;33;11;24 – 00;33;32;08
Dr. Mona
Their expectations that shape how boys view themselves, their place in the world, and their relationship with other people, including other men and women. And when we reinforce ideas like boys will be boys or downplay the importance of emotional connection for young men, we’re not just limiting them. We’re creating a culture that often leads to isolation, suppressed mental health, and even greater misogyny.

00;33;32;10 – 00;33;54;16
Dr. Mona
But the good news is we have the power to change this narrative. But it involves a movement of parents who understand the negative impact of impossible masculinity by being mindful of the messages we share, supporting boys, and exploring a full range of emotions and challenging outdated ideas of what it means to be a real man. We can raise a generation that values empathy, respect and connection.

00;33;54;18 – 00;34;17;07
Dr. Mona
Thank you all for tuning in to this crucial conversation. Remember, parenting is about growth, both for our kids and ourselves. Dismantling toxic masculinity is crucial for boys and girls because it shapes a society that values authenticity, emotional well-being, and equality. Toxic masculinity enforces narrow definitions of what it means to be a real man, often associating masculine with dominance, emotional suppression, and also aggression.

00;34;17;09 – 00;34;40;13
Dr. Mona
This not only limits boys ability to express vulnerability, seek help, or show empathy, but it also influences how they relate to others, reinforcing inequality and even perpetuating cycles of harm in relationships. When we raise boys and girls to challenge toxic masculinity, we teach them to respect one another as equals, value diverse forms of expression, and prioritize well-being over outdated norms.

00;34;40;15 – 00;35;09;00
Dr. Mona
They learn that strength can coexist with empathy, that leadership doesn’t demand dominance, and that everyone benefits from open, respectful relationships. And this is any relationship, whether it’s at the workplace, whether it’s a romantic relationship, politics. This matters by dismantling toxic masculinity or fostering a society where all people can lead fuller and more compassionate lives. Let’s keep questioning, keep challenging, and keep redefining what we pass on to the next generation.

00;35;09;02 – 00;35;28;20
Dr. Mona
If you love this episode, please make sure to leave a review. Share it on social media so we can acknowledge Ruth’s amazing work with this book and this conversation that we had, and subscribe to the show, whether it’s on podcast or YouTube, and I will catch you all next week. Stay well. Remember that we are raising the future generation of children and we have this power to do something incredible.

00;35;28;22 – 00;35;29;13
Dr. Mona
Have a great week!