In this episode, I sit down with Shannon Watts to talk about something so many parents and caregivers quietly wrestle with, how to stay fired up in the middle of responsibility, burnout, and the weight of shoulds.

Shannon is the founder of Moms Demand Action and the author of Fired Up, and our conversation goes far beyond advocacy. We talk about identity, purpose, and what happens when women are taught to put obligation ahead of desire for most of their lives. This episode is about what it looks like to reconnect with yourself, not by blowing up your life, but by getting honest about what matters.

Topics we cover include:

• Why so many women are taught to fulfill obligations before desires

• How guilt, fear, and perfectionism drain motivation

• The difference between purpose and being purposeful

• Imposter syndrome and fear of public failure

• Parenting, fulfillment, and modeling self trust for kids

• Community as a key part of sustainable change

• Why wanting more does not mean you are ungrateful

To connect with Shannon Watts follow her on Instagram @shannonrwatts, check out all her resources at ⁠https://shannonwatts.org/home/⁠ and buy her book “Fired Up” https://www.firedupbook.com/. 

00:00 – Choosing Hope Over Cynicism
00:38 – Why This Conversation Matters Right Now
01:31 – Meet Shannon Watts
02:55 – Staying Fired Up Without Burning Out
03:36 – Leaving California and Finding Community
05:55 – Talking Across Differences
07:17 – Why Women Feel Stuck in Obligation
08:35 – The Moment Everything Changed
10:22 – Desire vs Obligation
12:45 – It Is Never Too Late
15:13 – Rethinking Legacy and Guilt
18:06 – What Kids Really Learn From Us
20:12 – Losing Forward and Redefining Failure
23:21 – Handling Blowback and Shame
25:27 – Imposter Syndrome and Being the First
27:59 – Values, Abilities, and Desires
32:18 – Finding Your People
37:22 – Parenting, Purpose, and Modeling Fire
40:48 – The First Step to Living on Fire
42:51 – Final Reflections

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00;00;00;03 – 00;00;24;02

Shannon Watts

The most important thing women can do right now. Because I get asked this all the time, you know, should people feel helpless or hopeless? And I just say, you know, cynicism is a choice. Hope is a choice and you don’t have to be. Your fire doesn’t have to be political activism. It can be, you know, just understanding who you are and what you want and then coming together with other women and figuring that out.

 

00;00;24;02 – 00;00;38;24

Shannon Watts

And again post pandemic, post polarization, post social media, like how do we get together more with other women and figure out what makes us come alive?

 

00;00;38;27 – 00;01;01;28

Dr. Mona

Everyone, it’s Doctor Mona and you’re listening to the PedsDocTalk podcast. Before we jump in, I want to pause and say thank you because of you. This show recently became a top five parenting podcast in the United States. Top five. That still blows my mind and only happens because people are listening, downloading, and sharing. And that timing feels especially meaningful right now.

 

00;01;02;01 – 00;01;31;22

Dr. Mona

The Golden Globes just added a category for Best podcast. That didn’t happen by accident. For decades, TV and film have dominated what we called entertainment. But podcasting has become impossible to ignore. It’s culture. It’s storytelling. It’s information people trust and choose to spend time with. A parenting podcast will probably never win a Golden Globe. And that’s okay, because winning to me, looks like reaching millions of parents across the world and helping you feel more confident in your choices, not more overwhelmed.

 

00;01;31;25 – 00;01;55;03

Dr. Mona

Which brings me to today’s guest. Shannon Watts has spent years shaping culture by using her voice building community and challenging systems that were never designed with women or caregivers in mind. Her work sits at the intersection of purpose, media and impact the same reasons podcasting is finally being recognized as real media. Shannon Watts is the founder of Moms Demand Action.

 

00;01;55;09 – 00;02;24;04

Dr. Mona

A bestselling author and one of the most influential voices for change in our country. She took what started in her living room and built it into a movement of millions demanding change against gun violence. And she’s joining me today to talk about being fired up. And her book fired Up, which goes into How to have passion not only in professional life but in advocacy and her personal life, and how events in her own life have shaped how she views passion and fire.

 

00;02;24;06 – 00;02;47;26

Dr. Mona

But before we dive in, just a quick ask. Podcast rankings ebb and flow based on downloads and subscriptions so you know what you need to do. If this show has ever helped you feel steadier as a parent, please subscribe. Download this episode and share it. Tag at PedsDocTalk at the PedsDocTalk podcast, and at Shannon R Watts, because we want to hear how this conversation is resonating with you.

 

00;02;48;03 – 00;02;55;25

Dr. Mona

Okay, let’s get into this amazing conversation today.

 

00;02;55;28 – 00;02;57;09

Dr. Mona

Thanks for being here.

 

00;02;57;12 – 00;03;03;06

Shannon Watts

Thank you so much, Moana. That means so much to me and I’m thrilled to be here. I admire you and your work so much.

 

00;03;03;08 – 00;03;24;09

Dr. Mona

And it was just such an honor to see you. And also when we chatted and you agreed to come on my show, I just felt like I was fangirling a little bit. I’m like, I show and listen. My show is a top 20 parenting podcast in the United States. Like a lot of to make really love it. And when I can get guests that are inspiring in not only ways for parents, but just women and people in general, it’s really exciting.

 

00;03;24;09 – 00;03;36;15

Dr. Mona

And so, you know, I’m excited to dive in not only to the book, but to you, you know, your motivation. And the first question I had is you recently moved to Florida, I believe, from California. Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

00;03;36;17 – 00;03;37;02

Shannon Watts

Yeah.

 

00;03;37;04 – 00;03;48;09

Dr. Mona

And which is its own cultural shift. How has that transition been for you and what surprised you the most? I am a California girl turned Florida girl, so I’m just curious how that’s been for you.

 

00;03;48;11 – 00;04;13;02

Shannon Watts

You know, I when my husband told me that his offices had been moved from California to Florida, I really had a lot of hesitation. I’d lived in California for five years. I actually went to high school in San Diego. And I just love California. The weather. What’s not to love, right? And Northern California. And so it was a lot of hesitation moving.

 

00;04;13;02 – 00;04;34;04

Shannon Watts

We live kind of in the Tampa area, I have to tell you, I love it, love it, love it that we live in this wonderful community. We have 200 restaurants. We have three museums. Everyone is so friendly. It’s so funny because there’s like sort of a California Florida Florida rivalry. But both states are great. Yeah.

 

00;04;34;06 – 00;04;50;01

Dr. Mona

And both states offer different things. You know, I mean, we have been debating whether we want to stay in Florida to raise the kids or go back to California, where my parents are. There’s a lot more ability for good public schools. There’s a lot of different things, but there’s it’s not that being in Florida is a huge negative.

 

00;04;50;01 – 00;05;08;16

Dr. Mona

And I love you saying that because Florida gets a bad rap because of the political situation. Right. And I know you do a lot of advocacy on gun reform and things like that. And of course, Florida’s not the creme de la creme of policies regarding gun gun reform and other things as well. So I know, did you also deal with some like why would you do that?

 

00;05;08;16 – 00;05;14;26

Dr. Mona

Like why are you in Florida? Like what are you doing? You’re supposed to be, you know, doing what you do in a, in a blue state.

 

00;05;14;28 – 00;05;32;21

Shannon Watts

It’s funny because when I was telling people in California that I was moving to Florida, they would look at me like you would look at someone who said they had a horrible illness. And then now that I’m in Florida, would I tell people I live in California, they look at you the same way. And so, you know, there is just that hilarious rivalry, I guess, of two big coastal states.

 

00;05;32;23 – 00;05;55;18

Shannon Watts

But, you know, I have found so far that among my neighbors and people I meet, there’s not a polarized, politically polarized situation. It’s it is, I think, amenable to having conversations. And that’s really what democracy is all about. And so always make me a blue day, blue dot in a red state. I love it.

 

00;05;55;20 – 00;06;21;02

Dr. Mona

Yeah, I’m in Fort Lauderdale area, which is a very blue area in a red state like you. Tampa area also has a lot of blueness, but it has been really eye opening and it’s also made me grown as a person. And that’s why I wanted that question to be the first question, because I before all of this, I was like, people who don’t vote the same way as me or think the same way, like, I’m not going to talk and now one of my most dearest friends in the world here is voted for Trump.

 

00;06;21;07 – 00;06;40;26

Dr. Mona

You know, he is a conservative in terms of financial policy. And he didn’t like the Democratic candidate. And we have we have the ability to have these amazing conversations. And I think it’s so healthy for us because on both ends, you know, we are very good friends. I like him as a person. Do I agree with every value system he has?

 

00;06;41;02 – 00;06;58;12

Dr. Mona

No. But I can see through some of that and say, you know what, you are a kind person to me. You’re kind. You just have different reasonings for why you voted a certain way. And it sometimes makes people feel like, how could you? But I think when you have that balance, it really is able to open up those conversations like you mentioned.

 

00;06;58;15 – 00;07;17;09

Shannon Watts

Yeah. You know, I, I think coming out of the pandemic and with social media being such a big part of our lives and just the polarization that has resulted from those two things makes us feel isolated. And what we need right now more than ever is to come together in community. So many of us don’t know our neighbors.

 

00;07;17;09 – 00;07;46;08

Shannon Watts

We don’t know the people who are where we live, and we don’t know the issues that are important where we live. And I think we need to change that. I think that happens by having conversations, even if those are tough conversations and giving people grace. That is not to excuse racism, sexism, bigotry, none of that. Yeah, that is just to say we are not going to heal if we stay as hard as we are right now as a country.

 

00;07;46;10 – 00;08;05;08

Dr. Mona

Yeah, and I love that you’ve done that in your whole journey. You know, obviously you have always been advocating for the policy and not obviously the side. You just want politicians and people to understand the importance of, you know, when you join Moms Demand Action and all the advocacy work you’ve now since stepped down from your role at Moms Demand Action, correct?

 

00;08;05;10 – 00;08;07;13

Shannon Watts

Yes, I stepped back in 23.

 

00;08;07;16 – 00;08;35;24

Dr. Mona

Wonderful. And you know, you’ve talked about how girls and women grow up with so many shoulds. You know, be quiet, be polite, don’t be too loud in terms of the things that you’re passionate about and don’t take up space, but obviously you’re living example of doing that for so many years because of the passion you had for the policies that you wanted to change, how did those should show up in your own life, and what was the turning point where you began to break free from them?

 

00;08;35;26 – 00;08;51;23

Shannon Watts

You know, I start my book with a story of being in the emergency room because I was covered head to toe in eczema and had been for a couple of years. There was nothing I could get to make it go away. And the doctor kind of put me in a mind meld and said, you know, how much stress are you under?

 

00;08;51;23 – 00;09;14;09

Shannon Watts

And I joked, how much time do you have? And you do not laugh, right? He just sort of like earnestly looked into my eyes and it really broke me. I had kind of a mini breakdown in his office, and I realized I was at this crossroads in my life. I had gotten married right out of college, my parents had gotten divorced, and I think I was an only child looking for a family structure.

 

00;09;14;11 – 00;09;39;03

Shannon Watts

And I had three children. By the time I was 29. I was in a career that I never meant to be in, and I had made all these decisions, and all of these shoulds were piling up. And it was my mid-to-late 30s, and I realized I was either going to have to keep doing it, keep living my life in a way that was leaving me unfulfilled and unhappy, or I could change course.

 

00;09;39;03 – 00;09;59;02

Shannon Watts

And I went home that night, and I couldn’t confide in my husband because our marriage was part of the problem and I couldn’t afford a therapist. So I just began a journal. And really, that became the roadmap that showed me how to do what I’ve come to call living on fire. And it’s really just a metaphor for looking at two things what’s limiting you and what’s calling you.

 

00;09;59;04 – 00;10;22;08

Shannon Watts

Right? And we just don’t, as women take enough time to think about what do I want? And we we don’t do that because we’re, you know, weak. It’s really because we’re wise. Yeah. We see all the obstacles set in front of us. We know all the shoulds that we have to complete, and we decide that it is better to sort of put our desires on the back burner.

 

00;10;22;08 – 00;10;31;27

Shannon Watts

And really, the whole thesis of the book is that men are taught to fulfill their desires, and women are taught to fulfill their obligations. And how do we flip that dynamic on its head?

 

00;10;32;00 – 00;10;44;20

Dr. Mona

I love that was what really resonated with me in the book. And also just when I saw you speak, and I think it just speaks so well to what a lot of women feel. And why do you think that narrative is?

 

00;10;44;23 – 00;10;52;21

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

 

00;10;52;24 – 00;11;17;00

Shannon Watts

It’s again because we know what would happen if we don’t. If we woke up every day and said, what do I want? Institutions would tumble, governments would fail, family systems will fall apart. We are part of a structure that depends on us fulfilling those obligations means deciding that those should are actually our desires. Yeah. You know, it’s it’s the patriarchy in many ways.

 

00;11;17;00 – 00;11;36;01

Shannon Watts

And I upended that in my own life at age 41 when I started Moms Demand Action. But then I held the hands of thousands of other women who did the same thing. And it really comes to this formula that I talked about in the book. The formula for Living on Fire. And it’s super simple, but it’s not something we prioritize.

 

00;11;36;03 – 00;12;16;18

Shannon Watts

It is mirroring your values, your abilities and your desires. And that sounds simple and easy to practice, but it changes throughout our life. It’s something we have to kind of like alchemy bring together again and again and that is how we figure out who we are and what we want. And I don’t care what stage you are in of your life, you know, whether you’re a young woman trying to figure out what it is you want to do, whether you’re, you know, overwhelmed by work, family, whatever, you know, carving out some time to to focus on that, whether you’re like me in midlife and going through menopause and finally have maybe kids out of the

 

00;12;16;25 – 00;12;28;08

Shannon Watts

out in college and, and you can focus on yourself. You have a little bit of time, but you’re not really sure where to start. Or even, you know, women who are retired and beyond, who have so much wisdom to bring to the world.

 

00;12;28;10 – 00;12;45;18

Dr. Mona

One of the things that I loved when you shared it, when I saw you in person, was you talked about, again, the age range of the people getting into this passion, you know, finding, breaking free of the shoulds and obligations and really finding what gives them that fire. Right? The stories of the young women, but also the women, like you said, who are retired.

 

00;12;45;20 – 00;12;52;29

Dr. Mona

And I think you had a story about someone who kept getting denied of abortion and then to. Yeah. And then finally got a book deal. At what age was that?

 

00;12;53;01 – 00;13;17;03

Shannon Watts

Oh, this is my favorite story. It’s a woman named Carol, and she had decided to be an author and then obligated she should got in the way. She ended up becoming a Z teacher. She was that for 30 years, enjoyed her career, and she retired and went to volunteer in an animal shelter. And it was at this animal shelter that she came up with the idea of a novel about a couple who meet and falls in love at an animal shelter.

 

00;13;17;05 – 00;13;43;19

Shannon Watts

She goes home. She spends all of her hours outside of volunteering, figuring out how to write a book, how to create dialog, how to, structure chapters. She writes this novel, and then Carol decides that she deserves to be published. She doesn’t want to self-publish. She sent her manuscript to 218 publishing houses and was denied every time. Imagine like hundreds of literally hundreds of rejections.

 

00;13;43;21 – 00;14;09;11

Shannon Watts

And on the 219th submission, a man who loved dogs gave Carol a two book deal and it. She became a published author in her 70s, and it just absolutely changed the trajectory of the latter half of her life. She is now an author, and I just think it’s so important to remember one of our shoulds and one of our fears is, you know, that that it’s too late in our lives and it’s never too late.

 

00;14;09;14 – 00;14;31;04

Dr. Mona

And I, I completely feel this way. You know, I think when my career, I didn’t know if I could do clinical medicine at the level that I was doing it right. The 40 patients a day, the burnout that was happening. And I said, there’s just this can’t be it. Right? And part of my journey was getting that fire in me to figure out what else can I do to keep that passion of what I love, but do it in a different way.

 

00;14;31;04 – 00;14;51;02

Dr. Mona

And it’s led me to this platform, right. Pedes Doc Talk, the podcast, the yes I get and never in a million years that I feel like that would happen. And, you know, I turned 40 last fall and I honestly feel the happiest I’ve felt in my entire life, you know, not only not only because I, you know, it’s not the kids, it’s not the it’s not the husband.

 

00;14;51;02 – 00;15;10;04

Dr. Mona

Obviously, these are all wonderful things, but it’s me. Like, I feel like I have this world of purpose, and that purpose is creating and educating and helping others like it’s such a beautiful thing to make that sort of change. And that’s at 40, right? And maybe I’ll make my biggest change when I’m 50, and it doesn’t end until we’re dead.

 

00;15;10;04 – 00;15;13;06

Dr. Mona

And so let’s keep going. You know, I love that.

 

00;15;13;09 – 00;15;28;12

Shannon Watts

I think what you’re talking about and I touch on this in the book is, is this idea of a legacy. And I interviewed over 70 women for this book, and I asked all of them, you know, what do you hope your legacy will be? And so many of them shied away from that word. It was too big for them.

 

00;15;28;12 – 00;15;51;04

Shannon Watts

It felt too grandiose, like, you know their name on the side of a building or creating a philanthropic foundation. And I’ve never seen a man react that way to the word legacy. We deserve to leave a legacy. Now, that doesn’t mean that you start an organization or you’re you host a podcast. It might just mean that you were a good friend, or you know that you lived a life that was true to you.

 

00;15;51;04 – 00;15;55;18

Shannon Watts

But we should be thinking all the time about what is the legacy we want to leave you.

 

00;15;55;18 – 00;16;13;28

Dr. Mona

I love that because you know my husband, I know we’re talking about women, but my husband’s an ER doctor, and he tells me every day that, you know, obviously he is doing well in his profession, but he’s like the biggest purpose in my life is being able to raise the kids. And like that, I am undoing a lot of the childhood trauma that was done on me.

 

00;16;14;01 – 00;16;18;22

Dr. Mona

As we raise our child. And I was like, I freaking love you and I love you so beautiful.

 

00;16;18;22 – 00;16;19;03

Shannon Watts

It’s so.

 

00;16;19;03 – 00;16;36;28

Dr. Mona

Beautiful. And like, you know, a lot of our listeners may be moms, dads, caregivers that their purpose is their children. And it’s very clear and you are the same that that is wonderful purpose. Like it goes down to what is it that brings you fire? And if this is your way of bringing energy and love into your own life.

 

00;16;37;00 – 00;16;48;09

Dr. Mona

And I think sometimes people forget that this isn’t for anyone else, but for you like to feel that you’ve led a life of, you know, integrity and lived a life that you feel aligned with what your purpose was. I think it’s just such a beautiful thing.

 

00;16;48;11 – 00;17;05;24

Shannon Watts

Yes. And there is a flip side to that, which is really interesting. So I mentioned that I interviewed 70 women. I ask all of them also what are you worried your deathbed regret will be? And I thought they would all say what the most common deathbed regret in the world is, which is that I didn’t live a life true to me.

 

00;17;05;26 – 00;17;10;28

Shannon Watts

None of them said that. Most of them were mothers. Do you can you guess what they said?

 

00;17;11;00 – 00;17;13;06

Dr. Mona

Not spending enough time with their kids.

 

00;17;13;08 – 00;17;18;17

Shannon Watts

Very close, that they would pursue what they wanted at the expense of their children?

 

00;17;18;19 – 00;17;19;01

Dr. Mona

Wow.

 

00;17;19;03 – 00;17;41;27

Shannon Watts

Which just goes to show you that those shoulds are so ingrained that they trigger all these feelings of guilt and shame. Right. Guilt is I did a bad thing. Shame is I am bad. Yeah. And we become so accustomed in society to feel like if we go after what we want that were hurting someone and I have this experience myself.

 

00;17;41;27 – 00;18;06;16

Shannon Watts

But I also interviewed women in the book, experts, psychologists and therapists who said two important things. One is your children don’t want to be your entire world. They want to see you having other interests because it’s a lot of pressure. Yeah. And if you’re setting an example for your kids, you know, that that they see, you wouldn’t say to your kids, don’t fulfill don’t fulfill your desires.

 

00;18;06;18 – 00;18;22;11

Shannon Watts

Just do you just be there for your children at all costs. You would never say that to your own kids, right? Yeah. So we say it to ourselves. And, you know, I have kids now that are all grown and adults, and none of them say, oh, I can’t believe you didn’t go to that soccer game in 2000 because you, you know, 2015 because you were working amongst them.

 

00;18;22;11 – 00;18;27;24

Shannon Watts

And actually they all say thank you for setting an example and doing what you love.

 

00;18;27;26 – 00;18;42;07

Dr. Mona

I love it. That’s like it’s so inspiring because I think there is so much guilt and friction when we want that outside of motherhood. Right. Like, you know whenever I travel for work, you know, I do a lot of what you do in terms of maybe speaking or a brand event or whatever it is for my own career.

 

00;18;42;13 – 00;19;00;18

Dr. Mona

And I don’t feel that guilt because exactly what you said. I love my children. Yes, sometimes they get sick and I’m like, oh, mommy can handle. But you know what? My husband’s capable. Yeah, he’s capable, but I have chosen and am privileged to have these beautiful people in my life that can support the kids as much, or maybe even better than I can in some moments, you know?

 

00;19;00;26 – 00;19;24;17

Dr. Mona

And mommy gets to come back with a keychain souvenir to celebrate the fact that I got to do this boss woman thing, and then I’m back to mom mode and it. Yeah, it’s this beautiful circle of joy, right? I mean, that fulfills your cup, and then you go back and then you’re happier in front of your children. And I’ve always believed from a child development perspective when when the caregivers are happy mentally, obviously that’s the best outcome for a child.

 

00;19;24;17 – 00;19;29;03

Dr. Mona

And sometimes that means being able to pursue these things that that give us fire.

 

00;19;29;05 – 00;19;43;20

Shannon Watts

Well, and I like that you talk about other people stepping up. You know, one of my favorite photos that I have is, one of my kids, one a soccer award. I was traveling for moms from an action. They were in high school. And there’s a photo of my husband on one arm and my ex-husband on the other arm.

 

00;19;43;20 – 00;19;53;21

Shannon Watts

Right. And they they really because of mommy action, I was traveling so much, they both had to step up in ways that they wouldn’t have had to otherwise. And that was good for the kids. Yeah.

 

00;19;53;23 – 00;20;12;10

Dr. Mona

Oh, and, you know, going back to that story of, Carol, the one who wrote the book. Yes, yes. So it sounds like an example of what you’ve described as the idea of losing forward meaning. Setbacks aren’t failures, but lessons. Can you share a moment when you felt that way? I mean, you felt lost forward and how it helped to redirect you rather than stop you?

 

00;20;12;13 – 00;20;33;17

Shannon Watts

You know the reason I think this idea of losing forward is so important is because one of the reasons women don’t follow through with their desires is because they have a fear of failure. So I outline, when you’re triggered by guilt and shame, it makes you go into all of these different behaviors. I murdered myself during the 11 years was by not taking pay, because I wanted to show that I was a good girl.

 

00;20;33;17 – 00;20;52;21

Shannon Watts

Yes, I was provocative. Yes, I had sharp elbows. Yes, I was taking on the gun industry, but I was a good girl. And fear of failure is another one disappearing. Perfectionism, imposter syndrome. But but failure, like women, are not allowed to fail publicly. Now there are all these men who are right. Everyone from Beto O’Rourke to Elon Musk.

 

00;20;52;21 – 00;21;19;17

Shannon Watts

Like they fail and they still continue to move up in society, and women are not afforded that same grace. So when I saw him in action, I realized we were going to fail a lot because we were taking on the most powerful, wealthy, special interest that ever existed. And we wanted to reframe failure as moving, losing forward. And the way we did that was by celebrating everyone, no matter how small, right?

 

00;21;19;20 – 00;21;42;19

Shannon Watts

And also talking about what people won even when they lost. So let’s say you lost a legislative battle. Maybe you grew your chapter, maybe you met new lawmakers. Maybe you learned something that would help you win the next time. And I just think that’s an incredibly important mindset. And in fact, we we pulled our volunteers. You know, it’s not hard to get volunteers to come into an organization.

 

00;21;42;19 – 00;22;03;05

Shannon Watts

It is hard to get them to stay. And so we pulled our volunteers and said, why do you stay? We have 11 million supporters, you know, and they said two things that I think apply to life generally. One is they felt like they were winning. So that idea of you never fail, you’re always winning in some way really resonated and became our whole messaging platform.

 

00;22;03;05 – 00;22;20;25

Shannon Watts

And then the other thing was that they found their people. Yeah. And so when people feel like their time is being used well, when they think they’re making a difference, when they’re doing it with people with like minded values, they, they really feel a loyalty and and feel unstoppable.

 

00;22;20;28 – 00;22;37;02

Dr. Mona

Again inspiring. It’s just so nice to see that. And it’s nice to know that there is a way through setbacks. I mean I feel the same way. And I think oftentimes it’s very equitable to parenting. Right. We feel like we’re in this sort of trenches of something and it’s difficult and not to deny that it’s not difficult.

 

00;22;37;02 – 00;23;06;27

Dr. Mona

But when you get through it, what you can learn from it is very powerful. You know, I’ve been through traumatic experiences having my kids, I’ve been through IVF and all of those things were not easy. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone, but from it, if I looked at it and found a way to look at it in a positive way, I’ve come out of it feeling like a stronger person, feeling like again, I was set back, but now these are beautiful lessons and it is a mindset that I think from even a psychology perspective we know is so beneficial, to keep going in life and have that resiliency.

 

00;23;07;00 – 00;23;21;26

Shannon Watts

Is so many women have said to me, I wish I had a handbook for how to handle blowback. And I think that at the end of the day is really what we’re talking about. So living on fire, you may want to do more in your life, you may actually want to do less, but you want to do things differently.

 

00;23;21;26 – 00;23;42;29

Shannon Watts

And when you do things differently, people have opinions about it. You know, unlike me, who I talk in the book about how I had to deal with death threats and threats of sexual violence from, extremists, that’s probably not what’s going to happen to you. It’s going to be more like a snarky comment in the kids pick up line at school, or maybe something your mother in law says.

 

00;23;43;01 – 00;23;43;19

Dr. Mona

Yeah.

 

00;23;43;21 – 00;24;07;25

Shannon Watts

And so it really comes down to blowback that triggers feelings of guilt and shame and then makes us go into these different behaviors. Right. And so how do we just go back to square one and handle the blowback. And I talk at in depth about this in the book. But I would just say three important things. One is deciding whether you care about who the person is that’s giving you the feedback.

 

00;24;07;25 – 00;24;30;03

Shannon Watts

You know, how important is their opinion for me? You know, extremists who live in their mom’s basement and or, you know, yelling me online was not that important. Then deciding if what they’re saying is true, right? Being able to have enough self-awareness to say some of these things are accurate and I should think about them, but some of them are not, and I should just completely dis, you know, disregard what they’re saying.

 

00;24;30;06 – 00;24;57;11

Shannon Watts

And then the third thing, and this is why I was so fortunate to interview people like Sharon Salzberg, who is a Buddhist meditation teacher or Christian Neff, who is a, doctor and an expert in self-compassion, sitting with those feelings. I think that is the most uncomfortable part. And it’s what really makes us want to flee. Right? And to to step back and to not pursue what it is we want because it is uncomfortable to sit in those feelings.

 

00;24;57;11 – 00;25;12;27

Shannon Watts

And we’re often taught like, oh, if someone disapproves of what you’re doing, then that’s a huge red flag and you should stop doing it. And men just don’t have that shame gating factor right into sitting with blowback over and over again. You will eventually be able to get through it.

 

00;25;13;00 – 00;25;25;05

Dr. Mona

So these fire extinguishers, I think that’s what you call them, right? This guilt, fear, perfectionism because I can get in women’s way. Which of these things do you think holds women back the most? If you could pick one?

 

00;25;25;08 – 00;25;26;11

Shannon Watts

 

00;25;26;14 – 00;25;27;25

Dr. Mona

They’re all I know.

 

00;25;27;28 – 00;25;51;25

Shannon Watts

There’s I mean, it was so interesting because so many women fell into different categories. Yeah, but I do think imposter syndrome is such a huge issue. And of course, we feel like imposters because many of us are the first to do something right. I was the first woman to lead a national gun violence prevention movement. So there’s always going to be a first.

 

00;25;51;25 – 00;26;09;20

Shannon Watts

And instead of seeing ourselves as pioneers, we often see ourselves as imposters and I talked to a woman just the other day to at one of my book events who said, you know what I’m really passionate about? What I really want to do is coach people about mental health issues. I’ve experienced a lot of them myself and in my family.

 

00;26;09;27 – 00;26;35;27

Shannon Watts

I teach about mental health issues, but I don’t have the degrees. I don’t have the letters after my name, and that was what was holding her back and stopping her right from being who she was and talking about what she wanted to talk about. And she had this fear that people wouldn’t see her as an authority. And that is, I think, one of the most common things that women experience is what makes us decide not to do something.

 

00;26;36;00 – 00;26;44;14

Dr. Mona

Now, let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

 

00;26;44;16 – 00;27;03;23

Dr. Mona

My husband is eight years, like I said, but one of his biggest passions is to become a there, like a therapist or like a coach for especially men’s mental health, because he’s gone on his own journey. And I think he’s going to like hearing that, that you also agree that just, you know, you can do it. But there is that degree of holding back, especially, you know, in our field when everyone is like, oh, what are your credentials?

 

00;27;03;23 – 00;27;26;14

Dr. Mona

What are you like? Yeah, you should have the authority to be able to speak about this stuff. But when it comes to healing, as long as you’re not harming people. I also agree that there’s the most wise people I know have not had degrees behind their name like that, and they’re able to give great information. And so it’s about a consumer also being able to say, I like this, oh, maybe I don’t like this, but I have just been so and so inspired by people without those degrees as well.

 

00;27;26;14 – 00;27;28;06

Dr. Mona

And so I’m happy you’re giving that advice.

 

00;27;28;08 – 00;27;50;18

Shannon Watts

And I think it comes back to the formula. Right. So yeah, this woman, what are your values, abilities and desires? Her values were taking care of people and educating people. Her abilities were the conversations that she had had. Her desire was to translate and help people. And so what is the best way for her to do that? Maybe it’s getting on Substack, right, and just writing about her experience.

 

00;27;50;19 – 00;27;59;23

Shannon Watts

Maybe it’s starting a local community organization. I really think once you figure out your formula, it will guide you to the role that you should pursue.

 

00;27;59;26 – 00;28;24;29

Dr. Mona

And you’ve written that your fire is not a purpose. It’s about being purposeful, paying attention than acting with intention, which I. I love this because I think sometimes we can get into this sort of I think I want to do this, I don’t know what’s going on, and I’m just going to just go into it without understanding the intent for a woman who feels that faint spark but is overwhelmed or unsure, what’s the very first step towards living more purposefully?

 

00;28;25;01 – 00;28;49;04

Shannon Watts

What I love about the book is that they’re super practical journal prompts and exercises that people can do to figure out all of these things about themselves, right? Values, abilities, and desires. Values is really the North Star. Yeah, of of the fire triangle and the fire formula because it changes throughout our lives. When I started Monument Action 2012, my values were protecting my family and community because I had little kids.

 

00;28;49;07 – 00;29;08;08

Shannon Watts

And so thinking about what those are there, there’s, you know, thousands of different values, but they will change throughout your life depending on where you are in your life. And so knowing what those are and doing the exercises, I think is important. Your desires sometimes, you know, and the exercises ask you to do this. It’s really goes back to what do we love to do when we were a kid?

 

00;29;08;10 – 00;29;28;07

Shannon Watts

What would we do if time and money were not an issue? Yeah, and really thinking about those things. But here’s what I think is the most important part of the the five formula are the abilities. Women are so used to downplaying their abilities and often don’t really know what they are. And so I go through an exercise where I ask you to list all your abilities.

 

00;29;28;07 – 00;29;49;28

Shannon Watts

That could include throwing a really awesome kid’s birthday party. Yeah, that is executive functioning, right? So I ask you to list all of your abilities and things that you’ve done. But here’s the important part, which is I ask you to ask people who love you what your abilities are, because so often we don’t see them in ourselves. And then that way you have a list to remind you of what you’re capable of.

 

00;29;50;00 – 00;30;05;00

Shannon Watts

But also, you know, a lot of abilities are required. So if you don’t have the abilities you need when you’ve done this audit, and I think that’s really what it comes down to, is the first step is really auditing these things. Then you can figure out what you want to do to get those abilities.

 

00;30;05;02 – 00;30;25;23

Dr. Mona

One of the overarching themes I’m hearing, which I just really adore, is this level of self-awareness that you have that you’re encouraging your reader and your community to have. And I also have felt this so strongly in my parenting space, right? I think so many times parents get into this journey of like, I’m going to do this because I was told to do this, and they don’t really think about their past.

 

00;30;25;23 – 00;30;45;11

Dr. Mona

They don’t think about their own approach to the child. How are they talking to the kid? And to me is self-awareness is the biggest gift we can give ourselves, because it also requires a huge level of humility that, hey, I’m not perfect or that I am good at certain things, like you said, but I’m not great at certain things, and it doesn’t mean that you can’t learn those things.

 

00;30;45;11 – 00;31;01;09

Dr. Mona

But going back to that, here’s my list of the things that I really excel at. And I found that when I started doing that formula is when I also thrived in my business. You know, I couldn’t do it all. And I think as women, we often get into that, you know, the guilt, the fear and that perfectionism of like, well, I can do it.

 

00;31;01;09 – 00;31;16;24

Dr. Mona

I’m able to do it, you know, my type A personality. I’ve done this for so long, but you only have a certain amount of time, and you only have a certain amount of ability to be really good at something. So I love that you are honing in on that before you can continue to find that purpose and that fire.

 

00;31;16;26 – 00;31;34;18

Shannon Watts

I have so many women who come up to me and say, oh, you’re so lucky, you know, you must be a born leader. Which makes me laugh because I have struggled my entire life with severe ADHD. ADHD. I was diagnosed at 14, so, you know, it’s bad because it was 1985 when they were not diagnosing girls.

 

00;31;34;20 – 00;31;38;19

Dr. Mona

They’re like, this woman needs some. We need something for this girl.

 

00;31;38;19 – 00;31;56;03

Shannon Watts

Because, you know, there was a stigma around treatment at that time. My parents didn’t put me on medication. I barely made it through middle school. I barely made it through high school. I barely made it through college. On top of that, I’m an only child and a very shy introvert, and I had a debilitating fear of public speaking.

 

00;31;56;03 – 00;32;00;12

Dr. Mona

Well, I would not imagine any of this based on what you’re what you’re doing now. I love this.

 

00;32;00;13 – 00;32;18;22

Shannon Watts

Story. Yeah. If you had told me that mom, she would actually which involved public speaking, I absolutely wouldn’t have started it. And I am not the person that people would have looked at and said that woman should take on the most powerful of these special interests that’s ever existed, right? And yet I was exactly the right person for the job.

 

00;32;18;25 – 00;32;39;10

Shannon Watts

My ADHD helped me go down rabbit holes and focus on this. From the moment I woke up till the morning at mom, I went to bed. I was able to get over my fear of public speaking just by doing it over and over again. And you know, even though I’m an introvert, this brought me to a community of friends and women I wouldn’t have met otherwise.

 

00;32;39;10 – 00;33;05;00

Shannon Watts

And it completely changed my management style. My my personal style. I mean, it’s it’s been so rewarding. And I often talk about, you know, living on fire when you practice the fire formula and you start a fire and hopefully there are many throughout your life, small and large, that it’s like it feels like touching the divine. Yeah. When you find what fulfills you, when you find your people, it is like touching the divine.

 

00;33;05;02 – 00;33;26;10

Dr. Mona

It feels like it. And, you know, the book itself is called Fire It Up, and it really is just an embodiment of what the what’s in it. Right. But this sort of light and this I love how you just describe it as divine Divine Presence here, because that’s what it feels like for me. Like when I reach that, when I reach that point and I do the things that like literally give this huge dopamine release of like, well, joy.

 

00;33;26;10 – 00;33;45;06

Dr. Mona

Like, I’m so joyful doing this work, finding that fire, finding that passion. It’s such an amazing thing to feel. And I love that. And you talked about this earlier that, you know, in society, society doesn’t just hand women freedom to expand their desires. You know, obviously it’s focus more on obligations and things like that. And there’s often pushback.

 

00;33;45;09 – 00;33;51;07

Dr. Mona

Any other resistance that you’ve personally faced when you wanted more and how did you move through it?

 

00;33;51;10 – 00;34;09;18

Shannon Watts

Oh my gosh, so much. I mean, you know, when I started Moms Demand Action, I had so many people tell me I wasn’t the right person for this. It couldn’t be done. It had already been done, or I was being duplicative. I mean, there were so many people who told me that this wasn’t something I should do.

 

00;34;09;21 – 00;34;32;13

Shannon Watts

And what I realized is, you can’t live on fire on your own. You really do have to have a community who’s supporting you. And I started Moms Demand Action with perfect strangers from across the country who brought skills to the table that I didn’t have. Like, I knew I had been in corporate communications for many years. I knew how to create a brand, how to start creating messaging for for a new organization.

 

00;34;32;16 – 00;34;51;27

Shannon Watts

But I wasn’t an organizer, I wasn’t a lawyer, I wasn’t a website developer. I wasn’t all of these things you need to bring together to, to create a successful organization. And so when I was able to tap into that support, I really think that was in many ways the unlock. And I refer that to that in the book as your bonfire.

 

00;34;51;27 – 00;35;12;15

Shannon Watts

Right. These are people who are like minded, who support you in your endeavor, who share your abilities, who lift you up and encourage you. And and that’s really what moment action became. It wasn’t just an organization that was changing policy. It was an organization that was changing each other’s lives. Oh.

 

00;35;12;17 – 00;35;19;04

Dr. Mona

I love it. And I know you have a, you have a community group as well. Right. Like a group of women. What’s the fire starters.

 

00;35;19;07 – 00;35;41;28

Shannon Watts

Yeah. The, the two. It’s really interesting. The fire starting university. This is a first year. It’s based on the book. We’re going through each chapter together. It’s going to be a year long online program just started last month, or it just started in the fall. And then something that’s so fascinating is that women are taking the book and creating something called bonfires based on the book.

 

00;35;41;28 – 00;36;00;23

Shannon Watts

So they’re getting together where they live and talking about personal, political and professional empowerment. And they’re already in 30 states. I love it, which is it’s kind of it’s kind of like moms Demand Action, but but more around women and wellness issues. And so that’s been incredibly exciting to see.

 

00;36;00;25 – 00;36;19;05

Dr. Mona

I’m like loving all this women love. Like I just think it’s all mazing. And and boss women love, you know, like these women who have their expertise in certain areas and are wanting to share what they know, share it with others who may be in a different niche. Like that is just again, I can I’m already feeling that palpable energy of those groups.

 

00;36;19;05 – 00;36;36;12

Dr. Mona

You know, I know a lot of it’s virtual and maybe they even go in person sometimes as well. Right? Yep, yep. Yeah. That’s it. Oh. I need to look into this because I’m sure there’s a 4 to 1 and I, we may is we may end up relocating, again like I had mentioned, but for now I need to I need to get involved in the Florida one because I love it again.

 

00;36;36;12 – 00;36;47;13

Dr. Mona

I love that it’s even more than just politics, because sometimes people can feel like, yeah, I want to do politics, but I don’t know where to. I don’t know if that’s me, but I just want to be with women who want to change the world, you know? And I think that’s I.

 

00;36;47;13 – 00;37;12;02

Shannon Watts

Think the most important thing women can do right now, because I get asked this all the time, you know, some people feel helpless or hopeless and I just say, you know, cynicism is a choice. Hope is a choice. And you don’t have to be. Your fire doesn’t have to be political activism. It can be, you know, just understanding who you are and what you want and then coming together with other women and figuring that out.

 

00;37;12;02 – 00;37;22;08

Shannon Watts

And again, post pandemic, post polarization, post social media, like, how do we get together more with other women and figure out what makes us come alive?

 

00;37;22;10 – 00;37;40;00

Dr. Mona

Oh, and one of my questions next is about the parenting lens. Because of course, I know you said that you doing Moms Demand Action. Your children seeing that was very inspiring to them. How do you talk to your kids about fire and purpose in their lives? And what do you hope that they carry into their own lives from watching you?

 

00;37;40;02 – 00;38;02;10

Shannon Watts

I mean, each of my kids is so, so different. All five of them, and they’ve gone out into the world in such different ways. But I do think that they are all incredibly proud of me, that they’ve seen me figure out what I wanted and also balance that with being a mom and a partner and having a job.

 

00;38;02;10 – 00;38;28;20

Shannon Watts

And I see them doing the same thing, like making space in their life, not just for work, but also for friendship, for fulfillment. You know, it’s it’s not easy being a young adult right now. And I feel really surprised by the fact that parenting doesn’t end really at 18, I think I thought, oh, that’s my job. And but it’s it’s as intense in different ways when they’re young adults.

 

00;38;28;26 – 00;38;40;27

Shannon Watts

Yeah. And it’s also, I think, a really wonderful time because they’re their friends. And I think they finally started to see that I might have some wisdom that they don’t have. Yeah.

 

00;38;40;29 – 00;39;01;13

Dr. Mona

They’re like, maybe my mom’s on to something here. Yeah, I love it. No, it’s true though. I mean, I love that you brought up the fact that, you know, it doesn’t end at 18. Like I think about even a grown adult. And if you have a healthy relationship, which is created in the first 18 years, like the ability to come to your parents, want to tell them about your life, the struggles, maybe you become a parent yourself and want to go to your parent for advice.

 

00;39;01;19 – 00;39;19;21

Dr. Mona

I mean, that is such a beautiful relationship that’s lifelong. And like you said it, it changes and evolves as the child’s development changes. But that is my goal as a mom. And my husband’s as well as a dad and what I hope for my community when they listen to the show is that how can I create this sort of fire and connection with my child that’s lifelong?

 

00;39;19;27 – 00;39;30;13

Dr. Mona

And that goes back to trust. That goes back to not only trusting your kid, but what you said trusting in yourself, you know, like knowing what you want. And that’s such a powerful thing kids don’t always see in their parents.

 

00;39;30;16 – 00;39;51;04

Shannon Watts

Yeah, I it goes back to that fear that I mentioned so many women have, which is that they pursue what they want at the expense of their children. And if you don’t pursue what you want, it’s really the expense of yourself. Ultimately, men seem to have figured this out to some extent. And, you know, we have to expect, our partners to rise to the occasion.

 

00;39;51;04 – 00;40;22;18

Shannon Watts

We have to tap into our community for support, because you shouldn’t get to the end of your life and feel like you didn’t burn. You do deserve to leave a legacy. And again, that can be as simple or as significant as, you know, having a difficult conversation, going to therapy, leaving a bad relationship, asking for promotion. There’s so many different things that that could be, but it’s not going to happen unless we kind of take time out to figure out what are our values, abilities, and desires and then actually start making steps toward figuring out what it is we want and going after it.

 

00;40;22;20 – 00;40;41;02

Dr. Mona

This book cannot wait to dive in. It’s on my it’s on my nightstand. I brought it into the, recording studio today to be able to share it, but fired up how to turn your spark into a flame and come alive at any age. Which is, again, what we’ve been talking about for someone listening who picks up, fired up, and feels inspired but maybe intimidated, right?

 

00;40;41;02 – 00;40;48;23

Dr. Mona

What’s the very first practice or mindset shift that you’d want them to try? Maybe this week, or that first few weeks of reading the book?

 

00;40;48;25 – 00;41;09;18

Shannon Watts

I think it’s really important to have a mindset that is is open to change and transformation. Sometimes we just see, you know, blinders on because we’re so busy with so many shoulds and just have an open mind, you know, you may not feel like a fire starter yet, but read the book and then see it as a practice or a discipline.

 

00;41;09;18 – 00;41;28;17

Shannon Watts

I really that’s how I see it. It’s a lifelong practice to constantly be thinking about. Do our values, abilities, and desires align in this moment? Am I thinking about what I want? Am I taking steps toward that? And the other important part I think of the book is something called a controlled burn, which, you know, prescribed fires in real life.

 

00;41;28;17 – 00;41;47;09

Shannon Watts

Just make sure that you don’t have wildfires. And we can do those in our own lives like another type of audit where we see, are we spending too much time drinking during the pandemic? Are we spending too much time right now with doom scrolling? Yeah. You know, what are the things that we’re doing that are taking time away from the people we love and the things we love?

 

00;41;47;09 – 00;41;51;18

Shannon Watts

And how do we reallocate that toward seeking what we want?

 

00;41;51;21 – 00;42;09;13

Dr. Mona

Intent, I love it, Shannon, I, I really I’m so honored that you could take the time to talk to me today. And also my listeners, I know they’re going to really appreciate it’s going to resonate. Where can people go to stay connected? Where can they get the book? And also learn about, you know, Fire Starter University and, all the bonfires happening across the country?

 

00;42;09;16 – 00;42;21;03

Shannon Watts

Yeah, you can find all of that at fire ABC.com. And I am on social media at Shannon Hour Watch, and I am still on book tour for, you know, an indefinite amount of time. So I’d love to see you on the road.

 

00;42;21;06 – 00;42;43;17

Dr. Mona

Yes. Well, I definitely saw her on the road. And I know you’re listening to this. Maybe in your car or in the kitchen or wherever you may be. But if you can get a chance to see her live, there’s something just palpable. Like I mentioned already, there’s this energy of uplifting intent and joy that she brings into these conversations, and I just feel extra excited that I got to meet you and have you sign my copy of the book.

 

00;42;43;19 – 00;42;45;22

Dr. Mona

So thank you again for joining me today.

 

00;42;45;25 – 00;42;51;10

Shannon Watts

Thank you so much. It’s been such a fun time. Thank you. I appreciate it.

 

00;42;51;12 – 00;43;14;29

Dr. Mona

As I reflect on this conversation with Shannon, one thing she says really keeps echoing with me. Men are taught to fulfill their desires. Women are taught to fulfill obligations, and we need to flip that dynamic on its head. It’s why so many women struggle with their identity, especially after becoming moms. The idea applies to work, to advocacy, and yes, to parenting, too.

 

00;43;14;29 – 00;43;32;15

Dr. Mona

Because when caregivers are taught that their needs always come last, everyone pays the price. So if this episode made you think differently about purpose, guilt, or the space you’re allowed to take up in your own life, I hope that you carry it with you. And if this conversation matter to you, here’s how to support this space. Subscribe to the show.

 

00;43;32;21 – 00;43;59;02

Dr. Mona

Download this conversation even if you already listened, and share it with someone who needs to hear it. Tag at PedsDocTalk at the PedsDocTalk podcast and at Shannon W and on what’s what’s Shannon Watts so we can keep these conversations visible. This show being in the top parenting charts happens because of you. Rankings move, visibility shifts, but community is what keeps it going.

 

00;43;59;02 – 00;44;03;09

Dr. Mona

So thank you for being here. Thank you for listening and I’ll chat with you all next time.