Sleep deprivation postpartum (and in general) has a deep impact on our mental health. On this episode, I welcome Dr. Harvey Karp who is a world renowned pediatrician and child development expert. He is the co-founder and CEO of Happiest Baby and the creator of SNOO Smart Sleeper. He is also the author of the best-selling parenting guides The Happiest Baby on the Block and The Happiest Toddler on the Block.

We discuss:

• How sleep and mental health go hand in hand especially for new parents
• Why the fourth trimester can be difficult for new parents
• What parents really need in that fourth trimester to feel and do their best

 

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Find out more about Harvey and the SNOO Smart Sleeper at happiestbaby.com or connect on Instagram @happiest_baby

00:00:01:01 – 00:00:21:00

Dr. Harvey Karp 

On average, new mothers and fathers get about 6.5 hours of sleep, which doesn’t sound too terrible, except it’s broken up into nickels and dimes so you don’t get that efficient, continuous sleep that really you need to feel rested and restored. And sometimes you’re not even getting six hours. You’re getting that’s on average. So some people are getting 5 or 4 hours.

 

00:00:21:02 – 00:00:54:14

Dr. Harvey Karp 

It turns out that we use sleep deprivation with the sound of crying babies over loudspeakers to prepare Navy Seals to endure torture. We use it at Guantanamo to stress out the prisoners there to make them share their secrets. I mean, literally, it is torture and there’s a big lie that we tell ourselves and that parents are told today, which is completely untrue, which is that babies need mothers and fathers or babies need their parents.

 

00:00:54:15 – 00:01:05:04

Dr. Harvey Karp 

I mean, of course that’s true, but parents are not meant to take care of babies. Families are meant to take care of babies. No one was meant to have a baby by themselves.

 

00:01:05:06 – 00:01:24:01

Dr. Mona

Welcome back to the PedsDocTalk Podcast. This show continues to grow because of you and your reviews. A podcast where I get to welcome the most amazing guests to chat about all things parenting, child health, child development, and parental, mental and physical health. Today’s guest is a repeat guest, and he likely won’t need an introduction because you may know him already.

 

00:01:24:02 – 00:01:51:05

Dr. Mona

He’s Doctor Harvey Karp, a world renowned pediatrician and child development expert. He is the co-founder and CEO of Happiest Baby and the creator of Snoo Smart Sleeper. He’s also the author of the bestselling parenting guides The Happiest Baby on the Block and The Happiest Toddler on the Block. He was on my show to talk about the five S’s of newborn sleep, and he’s joining me today to talk about the connection between the lack of postpartum sleep and postpartum depression.

 

00:01:51:07 – 00:01:55:14

Dr. Mona

So thank you so much for joining me today, doctor Harvey Karp.

 

00:01:55:19 – 00:01:59:00

Dr. Harvey Karp 

Yeah. So glad to be here, doctor. Mona. Pleasure to see you again.

 

00:01:59:00 – 00:02:19:04

Dr. Mona

Yeah. Pleasure to see you. I’m happy to connect with you again. Obviously, the other episode we recorded talked about the five S’s of newborn sleep. So if you have not listened to that, you have to already. But if you can introduce yourself for anyone who may not know you, how you came up with the happiest Baby franchise, and everything that you do for newborns and toddlers and families around the world.

 

00:02:19:06 – 00:02:56:08

Dr. Harvey Karp 

Well, thanks. Well, I’m a pediatrician like you and practice for about 30 years in California and trained in pediatrics and child development, and then started writing some books and making videos to teach parents or guide parents through the early years of a child’s life. So worked on babies and how to help parents be more successful with babies through something called the Five S’s and the fourth trimester, and a book called Happiest Baby on the block, and then worked with parents on children from eight months to six years of age on how to be a better communicator, improve emotional resilience and patience and cooperation and all those wonderful things we tried to get out of our

 

00:02:56:08 – 00:03:09:23

Dr. Harvey Karp 

toddlers and the happiest toddler on the block. And then lately, I’ve created a robotic or special baby bed responsive baby bed called snips that parents are using to improve infant sleep and keep their babies safer at night.

 

00:03:10:00 – 00:03:29:18

Dr. Mona

Yeah, and we talk about, you know, newborn sleep. But like I said in that other episode and I can’t wait to have you back on again, hopefully in the future to talk about toddlers, because I know you share a lot of love and education from toddlers and toddler development, so do I. I am currently a toddler mom have expecting or have another baby on the way depending on when this episode is going live.

 

00:03:29:19 – 00:03:52:14

Dr. Mona

But I love toddlers as well and so we’ll have to have you back on because that is my favorite age to discuss as well. But you know, this is a piggy back of the other conversation that we had, the connection between the lack of sleep, which a lot of parents just kind of throw their hands up and say, well, this is how it’s going to be, but how that lack of sleep connects with postpartum depression and even just postpartum anxiety.

 

00:03:52:14 – 00:04:02:01

Dr. Mona

And even more so, you know, we obviously know there’s more than just postpartum depression anxiety. So how can this lack of sleep, postpartum affect parental mental health.

 

00:04:02:03 – 00:04:25:00

Dr. Harvey Karp 

Well, or anyones health postpartum or otherwise? I mean, sleep deprivation, exhaustion, new stressors, especially things that you don’t have control over or massively, you know, kind of corrosive on your self-concept and on your optimism. The interesting thing, of course, is when you’re having a baby, of course, a lot of women get sleep deprived towards the end of pregnancy anyway, right?

 

00:04:25:02 – 00:04:45:11

Dr. Harvey Karp 

It can be hard to get a good night’s sleep, but you’re usually filled with a lot of optimism for how you’re going to be and how the baby is going to be, and also fear how everything’s going to happen. And there’s kind of whiplash, almost between excitement and joy and nervousness. But it turns out that, you know, when you have a baby, oftentimes you’re waking up every couple of hours.

 

00:04:45:13 – 00:05:06:08

Dr. Harvey Karp 

And on average, new mothers and fathers get about 6.5 hours of sleep, which doesn’t sound to terrible, except it’s broken up into nickels and dimes so you don’t get that efficient continuously that really you need to feel rested and restored. And sometimes you’re not even getting six hours. You’re getting that’s on average, some people are getting 5 or 4 hours.

 

00:05:06:09 – 00:05:39:22

Dr. Harvey Karp 

It turns out that we use sleep deprivation with the sound of crying babies over loudspeakers to prepare Navy Seals to endure torture. We use it at Guantanamo to stress out the prisoners there to make them share their secrets. I mean, literally, it is torture. And there’s a big lie that we tell ourselves and that parents are told today, which is completely untrue, which is that babies need mothers and fathers or babies need their parents.

 

00:05:40:00 – 00:05:59:19

Dr. Harvey Karp 

I mean, of course that’s true, but parents are not meant to take care of babies. Families are meant to take care of babies. No one was meant to have a baby by themselves or to be a single parent. It’s with your cousin, your aunt and uncle, your mom, your grandmother, your next door neighbor’s older daughter held the baby more than you did.

 

00:06:00:00 – 00:06:18:21

Dr. Harvey Karp 

You know, because you were busy cooking and cleaning and doing other things to take care of the family. And so it’s important for parents to understand today, to pat themselves on the back and to recognize that what you are doing is immense. No moms and dads did that ever in the history of babyhood. Yeah, everyone had helped and had extended family around.

 

00:06:18:21 – 00:06:34:08

Dr. Harvey Karp 

And a lot of people are doing this while holding down, you know, 1 or 2 jobs at the same time. So it’s important to understand that you should give yourself some slack, and that those first months it’s normal for you to feel stressed, exhausted, and kind of pushed to the edge during that period.

 

00:06:34:12 – 00:06:54:02

Dr. Mona

Yeah, I agree completely. I mean, especially we’re recording this after well, we’re still in a pandemic officially, but after the peak of the pandemic, which really threw a bigger wrench in all of this, right? There was lack of any ability, even if someone wanted it for those early months of the pandemic, to have that community, which I also was a pandemic parent, and my fourth trimester was before the pandemic started.

 

00:06:54:05 – 00:07:12:04

Dr. Mona

So I was able to have my mom around. And like you said, it has a huge impact to have that help, that community. And that is how we did that in the past. And so many parents are feeling like, well, I’m not able to do this alone, so I’m not a good enough mom. Like, how come I can’t soothe my baby all the time?

 

00:07:12:04 – 00:07:30:08

Dr. Mona

How come I’m doing this alone and I have to handle x, Y, and Z and it leads them down that path of depression? You know, I’ve seen that. Like, you’ve seen it all in your practice. And I’m sure, you know, through all people you talk to. And it’s a scary place to be. You know, it’s a scary place to feel that depression, but also feel like you’re not good enough as a parent.

 

00:07:30:12 – 00:07:43:19

Dr. Mona

But this is literally your first few months of being a parent. Like there’s a lot more to happen. Like there is a lot more to come. Like, I agree, I’m in the same boat that I don’t want parents to feel dejected and that this is failing right from the beginning.

 

00:07:43:21 – 00:07:47:18

Dr. Harvey Karp 

How many people do you say suffer from this? What do you kind of say in your practice?

 

00:07:47:19 – 00:08:11:15

Dr. Mona

So I would say it’s gotten way worse in the pandemic. And I think the pandemic, like we said about the isolation, the lack of being able to create that community, even if you wanted to because of the early parts of social distancing. I would say that I’m seeing in my practice. I’m still practicing, obviously. I would say like, I see about 50 to 60% of some signs of more than just postpartum blues and women postpartum depression.

 

00:08:11:19 – 00:08:36:14

Dr. Mona

I am having a lot of conversations with women about postpartum depression. And also my little segue to that is I think we don’t talk about how this impacts male partners, too. You know, non birth, including male partners, because I think, of course, we understand that women do experience it, but I have seen it in men too. You know, I have fathers coming in with the sleep deprivation that we’re talking about, feeling like, you know, I can’t do this.

 

00:08:36:14 – 00:08:51:18

Dr. Mona

They’re feeling stressed. They’re working there, you know, while their wife is maybe at home with no maternity leave or with maternity leave, and it affects the whole family dynamic, like you said. And it doesn’t just affect affect postpartum like lack of sleep affects us until even if we have a teenager or don’t have.

 

00:08:51:20 – 00:09:16:23

Dr. Harvey Karp 

Yes, yes. Yeah, that’s absolutely true. And it’s lack of sleep and the anxiety about am I doing it right? Am I doing it enough? Am I succeeding in the way I expected because that’s really corrosive as well. But I agree with your numbers. I think that the studies during pandemic, it was really, you know, 30 to 40% of normal mothers, have been reported to have clinical depression.

 

00:09:16:23 – 00:09:37:17

Dr. Harvey Karp 

And now probably it’s at least 20% or more with really a clinical depression where they need to see a therapist and get help or medication. And I think it’s important to say when people think about depression, postpartum depression or postpartum mood disorders, what doctors often call it, it’s not always what you think it’s going to be. In other words, you know, boo hoo.

 

00:09:37:17 – 00:10:01:12

Dr. Harvey Karp 

Crying, feeling desolate, feeling incredibly sad. Those are the things we think about when we think about depression. You know, being listless, not wanting to eat, not sleeping well. But for many, many parents, this depression, postpartum depression is an anxious depression. Your mind won’t turn off. Your mind is racing. You’re constantly afraid of everything, you know. Oh, my God, could I drop my baby?

 

00:10:01:12 – 00:10:18:23

Dr. Harvey Karp 

Could the baby’s head split open? You know, when I’m crossing the street? What if I drop my baby? What if a car comes intrusive thoughts come into your head that you can’t quite shut off. It’s not exactly voices, per se, but these worries, these tracks of. Did I do it right, am I? What did it? What was I thinking?

 

00:10:18:23 – 00:10:44:01

Dr. Harvey Karp 

Having a baby? I never should have done this. I was so foolish, you know? I thought it would be something else, but that’s it. Behavior is turning. The light switches on and off four times, washing your hands six times before you touch the baby. And six times. I mean, these things sound freakish, but actually, they’re very common. And they can sneak up on you that you just start feeling like you want to run away.

 

00:10:44:03 – 00:11:04:07

Dr. Harvey Karp 

And in part, that’s like we said, it’s because you should have people helping you today. If you have a nanny, you’re well off. Yeah, but 100 years ago, everyone had five nannies your grandmother, your and your older sister. And so it’s important for people to recognize that feeling overburdened is not a sign of deficiency. It’s really kind of normal.

 

00:11:04:09 – 00:11:19:06

Dr. Harvey Karp 

And it does make sense to reach out for help, even just to say to a friend, can you come over and wash the dishes? Or can you just bring me a ladder or a casserole? Yeah, I’ll pay you back in. When the baby is older. This is the time to be vulnerable and ask for help.

 

00:11:19:07 – 00:11:36:14

Dr. Mona

Well, I will say there is also a very predominant culture in this modern parenting age, which I don’t know where it came from, but it happens. And that women especially don’t feel like they can ask for help even if they have it right. And that can be partly, maybe due to the worries that no one else can take.

 

00:11:36:14 – 00:11:48:22

Dr. Mona

Like a lot of moms feel, well, no one can take care of the baby like I can, and I need to be the one I need to be the one to rock them and feed them. And maybe they’re breastfeeding and they don’t pump and there’s no one to help with feedings. But then it goes to what you just said.

 

00:11:48:22 – 00:12:08:22

Dr. Mona

The help can come in other ways food, cleaning, all the things that really like we said, like I talked to my mom and you know, she grew up in India and you know how it kind of worked with her siblings. And like you said, everyone helped. And it wasn’t that you had to help with the baby. You also just helped with the home, which takes a lot of burden off of the person who delivered a baby or had a baby.

 

00:12:09:04 – 00:12:24:15

Dr. Mona

And so this misconception that we can’t ask for help and that we’re less of a I will speak as mothers, I hear commonly that we’re less of a mom if we ask for help. No, like you just said, this is part of raising a kid and this is something that’s going to go for ever. Like, you can’t do this alone.

 

00:12:24:15 – 00:12:35:08

Dr. Mona

Like you’re going to need responses and asking for help and if you can afford child care. But even if you can’t, like leaning on loved ones for emotional and physical support is so important. Like I agree with you.

 

00:12:35:10 – 00:12:55:23

Dr. Harvey Karp 

Yeah, it’s really part of the cancel culture, you know, mentality. And you know, for example, breastfeeding is really the best for moms and the best for babies, but it doesn’t always work out. I mean, for some women it’s not practical. For some women, they just can’t do it for one reason or another. And that’s why, you know, we have lactation consultants to help, but we also have formula.

 

00:12:55:23 – 00:13:14:16

Dr. Harvey Karp 

And we have to help people recognize that if they can’t do it, they can’t or if they choose not to because it’s not right for them. That doesn’t mean that they’re a failure. And we see that a lot in people who use new parents or use new. They’re told, oh, you’re cheating, you know, because your baby’s sleeping an extra hour or two and you have this help of rocking your baby.

 

00:13:14:17 – 00:13:33:14

Dr. Harvey Karp 

Yeah, but you’re supposed to get help, and ultimately, it’s not mommy, mommy, mommy, every single second. You know, you’re supposed to be able to pass your baby after grandma or to someone else and be able to get an hour or two to yourself to do other things. That’s normal for mothers and fathers to expect. And you’re right about that.

 

00:13:33:14 – 00:13:44:23

Dr. Harvey Karp 

It’s about 25% of the partner of parents with postpartum depression also experienced postpartum depression and anxiety. So it is a kind of a hidden suffering that a lot of people don’t talk about.

 

00:13:45:01 – 00:14:04:12

Dr. Mona

Yeah, that the one upping is such a common thing in parenting. Not only one upping good things, but one upping being like a woe is me mentality. Like, well, I’m suffering more than you, so I’m more of a mom, meaning I’m not using devices that help my child sleep, so I must be a better mom. But the it comes down to, hey, what are we doing to support the needs of that family?

 

00:14:04:12 – 00:14:22:09

Dr. Mona

And if the family wants to have that support, that’s wonderful. Like we should be. I always say we should celebrate, help. Always celebrate help. Whether it’s about this new spa sleeper or whether it’s a someone coming in to help you with meals like we tend to not want to celebrate help. And I’m all about celebrating help, like on my platforms.

 

00:14:22:09 – 00:14:42:22

Dr. Mona

And as a young mom, I’m like, nope, I will tell you when I’m having help and I will normalize it because I don’t always have it, you know? And I think it’s something that I really want more parents to appreciate as well and be okay with saying, I need help and I’m going to get it, and I’m going to be grateful for it when I have it, because it is something that really helps our mental health and the function of the entire home.

 

00:14:43:00 – 00:15:08:04

Dr. Harvey Karp 

Exactly right. So now we’re interested in studying that when it comes to postpartum depression, we completed a study that is going to be published and probably by the middle of 2023, which is was done in Australia with women with insomnia. And we used cognitive behavioral therapy, which is something that we use to help women try to sleep better compared to women who didn’t have any help at all, compared to women who use snow.

 

00:15:08:06 – 00:15:34:00

Dr. Harvey Karp 

And what was interesting in that study is that by six months of age, women using snow instruments for babies, but the women who were using it were sleeping 40 minutes longer at night, which again, getting to that sleep deprivation leading to mental stress becomes an important association. And we just are wrapping up a study at the University of Colorado using snow again with women who had prior depression.

 

00:15:34:02 – 00:15:52:17

Dr. Harvey Karp 

When you have a prior history of depression, it doubles or triples your risk of depression the next time around. And so we’re just analyzing that data. But it makes sense that by increasing sleep and reducing crying, we should be able to help some of these families. That’s really the hope and the goal. But we don’t have that data yet to be able to publish.

 

00:15:52:19 – 00:16:08:09

Dr. Mona

Oh, that’ll be great to know. I imagine that it will have an effect, just from hearing the design and obviously what we’re trying to do, you know, we already talked about well, not nearly as much detail as I would have loved to on our last episode about the five S’s of newborn sleep. But what do you wish parents would know about those first four months?

 

00:16:08:09 – 00:16:17:00

Dr. Mona

Like as a final message, like, what do you want parents to remember? What do you want parents to kind of think about when they feel like they’re struggling, or even if they’re not struggling in those first four months?

 

00:16:17:02 – 00:16:39:19

Dr. Harvey Karp 

Well, I think that that, as you said, there are tools that we can reach out to. I mean, the best tool is getting help from friends and family, and that’s fantastic. But it’s not always accessible for people. And so using things that will help improve an infant’s sleep. And now we know a lot about that. For example, white noise can be a helpful tool that, you know, just use it on your phone or they’re white noise machines.

 

00:16:39:19 – 00:16:59:22

Dr. Harvey Karp 

It’s fairly inexpensive but can be a very successful way. Swaddling is another help. Putting those together. In terms of the use of Snoo, we’ve measured now 500,000,000 hours of infant sleep, and we’ve demonstrated not only do babies sleep an extra hour automatically, which is kind of what they would do if you drop them in the car all night, anything, but then you wouldn’t sleep.

 

00:17:00:00 – 00:17:19:04

Dr. Harvey Karp 

And what’s really interesting is by two months of age, we’re seeing normally a two month old, we’ll get a five hour stretch of sleep and Snoo, on average, we’re seeing almost a seven hour stretch of sleep, and that means parents by two months can get more effective sleep. So they can kind of be the parents that they want to be and get ready for going back to work.

 

00:17:19:04 – 00:17:33:11

Dr. Harvey Karp 

And many people get this new for free now through their employers. So the hope and the goal is that people can use the tools that are available so that they can feel more successful and that they can be more available to their kids all day long, which is when their kids are going to need them the most.

 

00:17:33:17 – 00:17:53:22

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And not feel like they’re failing because you’re not you’re not failing everybody. It’s such a feeling that I and I talk to so many moms in that first four months, that fourth trimester, that really does feel like they’re not doing anything right. And whether it’s with sleep, I mean, like really the basics in that first few months, which you actually talked about before being able to feed your baby, soothe your baby, and then obviously with sleep.

 

00:17:53:22 – 00:18:10:19

Dr. Mona

Right. And it’s one of those three things you mentioned in the other episode, The Three Legs of a stool. One of those things are not working. Everything collapses. And it’s true. I see that, you know, I see when it’s not going well with breastfeeding or the sleep is all over and the parent is not getting even that little stretch that you mentioned, like me.

 

00:18:10:20 – 00:18:31:03

Dr. Harvey Karp 

So quick to judge ourselves. We’re so quick to judge ourselves and to be judged by others. And it’s pretty funny because no one judges you. If you use a vacuum cleaner to clean your house, they don’t say, oh, you should only sweep with the broom. Or if you use a blender to make food. These are just tools to use, and when you’re a new parent, you better take advantage of all the help and all the tools you can use.

 

00:18:31:05 – 00:18:45:22

Dr. Mona

I love it! Well, always a pleasure. I’m so glad we could connect again on the show and I hope we can do another episode. Like I said about toddlers, I would love to talk about that because I love my toddler and I love talking about toddlers. Where can people stay connected, especially with the happiest baby resources?

 

00:18:46:00 – 00:18:57:19

Dr. Harvey Karp 

Well, anyone can get more information about postpartum depression and babies and infants and toddlers and all for free at Happiest baby.com. That’s our our website. And so we welcome everybody to come and visit.

 

00:18:57:21 – 00:19:04:12

Dr. Mona

Well I will be adding all of these resources to the show notes. And as always Doctor Karp thank you so much for joining me today.

 

00:19:04:14 – 00:19:05:22

Dr. Harvey Karp 

Thank you so much, Doctor Mona.

 

00:19:06:00 – 00:19:24:02

Dr. Mona

Thank you and for everyone listening. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Make sure to check out all of the amazing resources on the Happiest Baby website. If you like this episode, make sure to leave a review. Call a doctor. Karp is amazing information, and don’t forget to listen to our other episode, The Five S’s of Newborn Sleep. I cannot wait to welcome another guest next week.

 

00:19:24:03 – 00:19:39:18

Dr. Mona

Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review. Share this episode with a friend. Share it on your social media. Make sure to follow me at PedsDocTalk on Instagram and subscribe to my YouTube channel, PedsDocTalk TV. We’ll talk to you soon.