Do you consider yourself an optimist? Although some people may be more optimistic than others, you can learn to foster an optimistic mindset – a key tool for parents to build resiliency and navigate the unexpected. I welcome Dr. Sue Varma, a psychiatrist, cognitive behavioral therapist, and author of the new book, Practical Optimism: The Art, Science and Practice of Exceptional Wellbeing.

 

We discuss:

• What is practical optimism, and how it differs from toxic positivity and pessimism
• If there is a genetic component of optimism or if it can be learned
• How some people survive, even thrive, despite profound challenges
• The 8 Pillars of optimism and the 3Ps of pessimism
• How optimism can help with dealing with the unexpected, especially as parents

 

Connect with Dr. Varma on Instagram @drsuevarma. Remember to check out her book and visit her website for more resources.

 

We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on the PedsDocTalk Podcast Sponsors page of the website.

00:00:01:02 – 00:00:12:13
Dr. Sue Varma
And there’s a joke. If you want accuracy, go to a pessimist. But if you want action, go to an optimist because he often is going to take what they learned right? And hopefully make a decision based on that.

00:00:12:16 – 00:00:36:05
Dr. Mona
Hello PedsDocTalk podcast listeners, thank you for being here. I know the juggle is real as parents and even if you are not a parent, so I appreciate you taking time out of your day to tune in to these awesome conversations that I get to have about child health development, parenting, and parental mental health. This show is a top 50 parenting podcast in the United States, so let’s make it a top 20 by leaving those reviews and ratings.

00:00:36:09 – 00:01:11:13
Dr. Mona
That is truly how the show continues to grow, and I cannot wait to chat with my next guest today, who is doctor Sue Vermont, a psychiatrist and cognitive behavioral therapist based in New York and author of the new book Practical Optimism The Art, science, and Practice of Exceptional Well-Being. With over two decades of private practice experience, Doctor Varma has made a significant contribution to the field of mental health, and her expertise has been instrumental in guiding the public through various mental health challenges, from trauma and resilience to stress management and relationship issues.

00:01:11:20 – 00:01:23:07
Dr. Mona
And I’m so excited we’re going to talk about practical optimism today, because this is something that’s not only useful for our children to know, but many of us as adults, need as well. So thank you for joining me today, doctor.

00:01:23:07 – 00:01:28:15
Dr. Sue Varma
Vermont, thank you so much. I love everything you do. So it’s such a pleasure to be on the show.

00:01:28:17 – 00:01:58:09
Dr. Mona
Well, likewise, I am an optimist and I will say that flat out before we even start the conversation. But I’m married to someone who is not. And so this is something that I definitely am excited to chat with you about. Just the science of what it means to be optimistic. And you know, I did actually put a box up on my social media channel on StarTalk asking my followers for some questions if they struggle with optimism, you know, things that they struggle with, especially because I have a lot of parents in my platform, and so we’ll get into those as well.

00:01:58:15 – 00:02:04:24
Dr. Mona
But before we get into the nitty gritty, tell us more about yourself and also the inspiration behind your new book.

00:02:04:26 – 00:02:27:28
Dr. Sue Varma
Yes. So as you said, I’m a psychiatrist in private practice, and I started my career working with 9/11 survivors. That was my first job out of residency and I definitely didn’t feel equipped. You know, and I felt honored that I got this position. But, you know, none of us really felt there was, you know, this mass tragedy and that none of us had you sort of were prepared to help people with.

00:02:28:00 – 00:02:46:17
Dr. Sue Varma
And one of the things I became interested in, so I was part of the mental health, I was a medical director of the mental health program, but we were part of a larger medical program. So people would come in for screening for asthma, for lung problems, for GI problems related to whether they were living down there on nine over 11 working or were involved in rescue and recovery.

00:02:46:17 – 00:03:10:26
Dr. Sue Varma
So I treated a lot of first responders as well. And there were a lot of people who came in for screenings for medical issues but did not meet the criteria for anxiety, for depression and for PTSD. And I became fascinated by these people. What are the characteristics that make some people more resilient, more buoyant, more adaptive to not just everyday stress, but extreme stress?

00:03:10:28 – 00:03:32:07
Dr. Sue Varma
And so I became fascinated by the concept of resilience, which is bouncing back from adversity. But then I became interested in the concept of flourishing, which is thriving in the face of adversity, and later learned that optimism is one key feature. But I never paid attention to optimism because I thought it was something you were born with. You either have it or you don’t.

00:03:32:07 – 00:03:56:15
Dr. Sue Varma
This naturally sunny disposition, the belief that things will work out when you don’t know in the face of uncertainty. Later on, I learned that there’s real science behind it. That optimism is genetic, but only 25% of it and the rest of it can be learned. And so I then spent the next two decades trying to figure out what are these features that some people are born with and others of us can learn.

00:03:56:18 – 00:04:17:00
Dr. Sue Varma
And what I realized is that they’re really just skills, skills, tools to resources that all of us can practice. And so I said, you know what? Optimism is a practice. And there is a practical component, just like learning a new language or yoga or learning a sport. And a lot of it was stuff I was already doing in the work that I was doing.

00:04:17:00 – 00:04:32:24
Dr. Sue Varma
So I said, all right, now we got to make this accessible and available to the rest of the 75% of us. And I think I fall into that 75% category. You know, where like, for me, optimism is a practice. It’s not something I don’t I don’t think that I was genetically, you know, endowed with, so to speak.

00:04:32:27 – 00:04:51:29
Dr. Mona
Well, I love that we’re even starting the conversation talking about genetics versus nature and environment, because as a predominantly parenting podcast and someone who loves talking about children and parenting, you know, nature and nurture is something that I often talk about on the show with my guests. And, you know, you talking about how it’s 25% genetic, but it’s also a practice.

00:04:51:29 – 00:05:18:03
Dr. Mona
It’s also environmental. I think it’s going to be so eye opening. And like I alluded to already, I think I maybe in that 25%, but also I had a mother who was very optimistic by just being around her. But I wonder if there was some genetic predisposition there. But when you’re married to someone, like I said, who is definitely very much in the non 25% and struggles day to day and you know, we went through some really hard times.

00:05:18:06 – 00:05:37:13
Dr. Mona
You talk about the big things and also the day to day he struggles with that. I do too, but I tend to bounce back quicker, from really big things. And you know, speaking about birth trauma, he really struggled when we were in the traumatic event. While I’m sitting there with the tube in my nose, like, okay, we’re going to get through this.

00:05:37:13 – 00:05:59:19
Dr. Mona
And he’s like, how are you? So sure? And so it was a very eye opening thing. And then I mentioned to you before we even started recording that he is reading your book, and I think it’ll really benefit him to learn about these practices. So how would you define practical optimism? And from your experience and research that you’ve done, how does some people survive or even thrive despite really profound challenges?

00:05:59:21 – 00:06:28:05
Dr. Sue Varma
Yes. So, you know, practical optimism is a skill set, a tool set in action, set in a mindset. And the folks that are born with optimism have a naturally positive, outlook on life. But practical optimism helps you translate, in turn positive outlooks into positive outcomes through really proactive, actionable measures. So, you know, I sort of codify it okay.

00:06:28:05 – 00:06:45:18
Dr. Sue Varma
What are these qualities? What are these traits. What are these things that naturally optimistic people do. And then how do we make them easy, accessible, fun, relatable to the average person? Right. So I can tell I put myself in that average person category because like I said, I wasn’t born with it, so and I had to go to my own therapy to learn it.

00:06:45:18 – 00:07:03:15
Dr. Sue Varma
And this is what I learned, that there are eight key traits. So it starts out with having a purpose. And that could be a big purpose in life. It could be a purpose, an activity. It could be a purpose in a relationship. But what is it that I’m looking for? What are my goals? And one thing to keep in mind is that purpose isn’t always connected to our paycheck.

00:07:03:18 – 00:07:25:17
Dr. Sue Varma
Purpose could be raising our family, and there should be great pride in that purpose that it gives you meaning. If it gives you joy. The other thing about purpose is that your purpose yesterday isn’t going to be your purpose today. It isn’t going to be your purpose tomorrow. Lastly, I want to say is that purpose is one of those things where if you can’t find it in the external environment, it’s your job to create it, it’s on you.

00:07:25:21 – 00:07:39:18
Dr. Sue Varma
And a lot of times people will come and they’ll say, but I want this. I want to be in a great relationship. And I said, great. Well, it’s not going to fall from the ceiling into your lap and no one’s knocking on our door. And, you know, granted, some people would sometimes meet potential partners, future partners in the waiting room.

00:07:39:18 – 00:07:57:19
Dr. Sue Varma
But for the most part, nobody is knocking on our door and this appointment and handing you what? The life that you want, right? And this is a tip that I learned from cognitive behavioral therapy, which is called behavioral activation. Putting the cart before the horse. And sometimes that can mean populating your calendar with activities that bring you pleasure and joy and meaning.

00:07:57:19 – 00:08:16:13
Dr. Sue Varma
They don’t have to be for anybody else. So that is the first pillar, and it helps us get very intentional. It gives us clarity about what do we want, what do we not want. And it helps us be very intentional about it. And I talk about how purpose is about giving back to the community. You know, I think a lot of times right now, people are like, but how can I give anything to anyone?

00:08:16:13 – 00:08:38:21
Dr. Sue Varma
I have nothing myself. And we don’t realize that the quickest way to build your own purpose is to be of use and to feel needed and to provide. And we’re not talking about you not taking care of yourself, or abusing or neglecting oneself, but altruism, volunteerism, all of this has been shown to extend our lives. That was a big part of the 911 folks.

00:08:38:21 – 00:08:57:00
Dr. Sue Varma
In your question about how do some people not only survive, but thrive? And that key thing was giving back and even if you’re depressed, take five minutes to ask someone else, how are you doing? And what that does is it stops the illumination in the brain and helps us show up for someone else. And then it makes us feel like we matter.

00:08:57:04 – 00:09:08:06
Dr. Sue Varma
And when you look at a lot of the mental health disturbances that people are experiencing, it’s the basic needs that are being compromised. Do I matter, do I belong, do I serve a purpose? Am I needed in this world?

00:09:08:08 – 00:09:11:23
Dr. Mona
Now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors.

00:09:11:25 – 00:09:29:28
Dr. Sue Varma
So purpose is big and I feel like it’s you know, we start out practical optimism with purpose and we end with practicing healthy habits. And while I say there’s no particular order, it’s this arc that you create and you can really use any life goal and throw it in this paradigm of, okay, there’s something I want to achieve.

00:09:29:28 – 00:09:47:25
Dr. Sue Varma
That’s the practicing healthy habits. It could be a goal. And how do I start with the intentionality? And that’s the purpose. And then along the way there are other pillars processing negative emotions. Problem solving. Problem solving is always about contending. We’re always contending with a battle on two fronts what’s happening in the world outside and what’s happening in our mind.

00:09:47:28 – 00:10:08:27
Dr. Sue Varma
And problem solving helps you regulate your emotions so you’re more effectively able to show up. Then we talk about being present in the moment, having proficiency, which is belief in your abilities, not just your abilities. So working on both confidence in the abilities, the pillar on pride is about developing self-compassion. And there’s so much research behind self-compassion.

00:10:08:27 – 00:10:28:18
Dr. Sue Varma
And I would say, you know, a really important part of optimism. You can do a ten minute self-compassion exercise and show that the parents who do this, if, let’s say they’re struggling with their child or they’re having a really challenging time doing a ten minute self-compassion exercise, helps them be more effective. We know that in students who are struggling with, let’s say, math with a math test, they fail the exam.

00:10:28:20 – 00:10:44:12
Dr. Sue Varma
If you do a brief, self-compassion exercise, you end up doing better. So there’s eight pillars and I, you know, invite people to read the book so that they learn the tangible tips, the science, the exercise. I mean, there’s there’s so much here, 20 years of experience. And I put so much science into it. So I’m like, don’t take it from me.

00:10:44:12 – 00:11:11:01
Dr. Sue Varma
Yes, I have a lot of clinical experience that also take it from the science. And we know the science shows that optimism leads to longevity, exceptional longevity, living longer in your 80s, healthy not just lifespan, but healthspan also, love cardiovascular disease, less strokes, less headaches, boosting your immune system. Optimists are healthier, wealthier, more productive at work, less burnout, more engagement, more likely to get a promotion 40% in the next year.

00:11:11:02 – 00:11:15:29
Dr. Sue Varma
So like me, it’s such an untapped, underutilized resource.

00:11:16:01 – 00:11:31:21
Dr. Mona
I love it. And yes, your book is great. We have it on audiobook in our house because that’s how my husband likes to read it. And then I have the hard copy because that’s how I like to read it. And, you know, not only is it just beneficial from a health aspect, from a superficial level, I just like being around optimistic people.

00:11:31:21 – 00:11:47:06
Dr. Mona
And it’s not I think there’s also a misconception, and I’m sure you would agree that sometimes people look at optimists as having their head in the clouds, like they can’t have any realism. And I think we’ll get into a question about that. But I love my mom is a prime example. Whenever I’m with her, it just feels good.

00:11:47:06 – 00:12:08:07
Dr. Mona
Like I feel that there’s this aura of, we’re going to handle this, like it’s going to be okay. And yes, to some degree sometimes that there’s a fine line of that, but it just feels good. And I agree completely. Now, for those who are more prone to self-sabotage and their brain always is looking for the train wreck, where can they begin to shift their mindset?

00:12:08:13 – 00:12:16:29
Dr. Mona
If this is like new for them? Like they just have not had this 25, 30 year old person or older? Where can they even start?

00:12:17:02 – 00:12:36:11
Dr. Sue Varma
Yes. So I first of all, I love what you said about your mom, and you’re 100% right that we gravitate towards optimism. And, you know, when you look at their friendships, they have these long lasting friendships since childhood and it’s because they really understand the value of it, of maintaining relationships. And they also don’t hold like grudges and grievances against other people.

00:12:36:11 – 00:12:52:27
Dr. Sue Varma
And they have a tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt. And when you see the best in someone, you’re more likely to get the best from them. And so optimists really do have these stronger, relationships throughout life. And they’re people magnet and are more likely to get promoted. They’re more likely for people to want to work on their team.

00:12:53:00 – 00:13:08:21
Dr. Sue Varma
You know, I hate to say that it’s a popularity contest that they are because they’re fun and easy to be around and they’re kind people. So I love that you share that about yourself and your mom. If someone has a tendency towards pessimism. And here’s the thing with practical optimism, it’s not enough that you boost your optimistic tendencies.

00:13:08:26 – 00:13:42:21
Dr. Sue Varma
You also have to be cautious and careful about your pessimistic tendencies. And they are not just two sides of the spectrum. They can exist. Coexist. Pessimism and optimism often coexist. We can be optimistic about certain aspects of our life. That’s our job, but may be pessimistic and look at romantic relationships or friendships, whatever it might be. So the way to boost optimism, number one, is to, you know, if they follow the eight pillars in the way to kind of negate pessimism, is this one key pillar on processing emotions.

00:13:42:24 – 00:14:03:01
Dr. Sue Varma
Now, when we have a tendency to be pessimistic, we are more likely to do what’s called a three piece of pessimism. And Doctor Martin Seligman, you know, founder, pioneer of positive psychology, talks about this. And I got in my fourth piece. So pessimistic Tendencies has a tendency to look at something as taking a very personal to something that happened.

00:14:03:01 – 00:14:20:23
Dr. Sue Varma
Let’s say you didn’t get a promotion this year. You were passed up. The tendency in that person would be like, oh my God, there’s something wrong with me. They take it personally. Somebody doesn’t like me, somebody is out to get me. I’ve done something wrong. I’m a bad person. Then they have a tendency to look at that and think it’s pervasive, man, maybe it’s not just my job.

00:14:20:23 – 00:14:36:26
Dr. Sue Varma
Maybe it’s not just my coworkers and bosses doesn’t like. Maybe I’m not a likable person or maybe I just suck in the multiple categories of my life. Or then they start to feel a sense of doom and gloom with other aspects as well, because one circumscribed area of their life didn’t work out, and then they have a tendency to think it’s permanent.

00:14:36:26 – 00:14:52:25
Dr. Sue Varma
Oh my God, I didn’t get it this year. I don’t think I have a future at this job. It’s not going to work out for me. This is not meant to be. I’m not good at this. Maybe I’m not good at this field. Maybe I should rethink this career trajectory completely or completely, not take any responsibility and blame other people.

00:14:52:26 – 00:15:09:13
Dr. Sue Varma
You know, a pessimist isn’t doing one or the other. They’re either taking something super, super personally in the sense that I suck, or super personally in the sense that they suck and they hate me and they’re not giving me a chance. And so this black and white thinking this all or nothing thinking, then creates a lot of unhappiness.

00:15:09:16 – 00:15:27:28
Dr. Sue Varma
So ask yourself, are you doing certain key cognitive distortions? And I outlined them in the book. And this is borrowed from cognitive behavioral therapy. When I went to therapy, my cognitive behavioral therapist gave me, and we were encouraged in our psychiatry training to go to our own therapy. But it was very expensive. New York City psychiatrist. Yeah, we didn’t have the time.

00:15:27:28 – 00:15:46:20
Dr. Sue Varma
We’re working. You know, I was working 100 hours a week at five different hospitals, so I didn’t have the time. And it wasn’t until I started having symptoms that I always say the body expresses what the mind cannot. And I talk about this in my opening chapter of my own Blindspots and Troubles of not being able to manage and emotionally regulate what I was going through.

00:15:46:23 – 00:16:03:13
Dr. Sue Varma
So she gave me a list. And these cognitive distortions. What are you catastrophizing? That is imagining the worst thing for you? Are you having a tendency to see something as black and white? It’s either going to work out perfectly, either get a promotion right now or I’m completely a loser and a failure is never gonna work out. Fortune telling.

00:16:03:16 – 00:16:21:29
Dr. Sue Varma
Jumping to conclusions, mind reading, emotional reasoning, negative filtering. So all of these things put us into a mode of shame and blame, and then we end up. My fourth piece is what what I added was we become paralyzed and passive and then we don’t do anything about it. So there’s nothing wrong in having a little bit of pessimism.

00:16:21:29 – 00:16:45:20
Dr. Sue Varma
And I always say pessimist are actually more realistic in their assessment of things. Right? They’re able to have somewhat of an accurate read on things. The problem is they then get mired in the negativity and they don’t. And the practical optimist takes a little bit of the pessimism and read the room, assess the situation, but then follows it up with a balanced action plan.

00:16:45:22 – 00:17:07:23
Dr. Mona
Oh, I love the way you differentiated that, because it’s an important nuance, I think. And using the example of the traumatic birth, I would say that my husband is a pessimist, and if it wasn’t for his pessimism, we probably would have missed something because I think sometimes I can go too far, leaning into the lack of practical optimism and go into just being an optimist and thinking that it’s fine, it’s fine, like we mentioned.

00:17:08:00 – 00:17:25:29
Dr. Mona
And it wasn’t for him. Like he was the one who thought that my heart rate was going up and that something was wrong and got the attention I needed before things got really bad when I was pregnant or delivered my second. But you’re right. Then he stayed there. It was not this sort of my actually, you know, I got here, my practical optimism kicked into gear.

00:17:25:29 – 00:17:45:29
Dr. Mona
But no, he stayed in the pessimism. So I again, going back to that terminology in your book about practical optimism is such a good definition. So thank you for clarifying that. Oh, my community had stocked up on social media. I had my followers submit questions. Like I said earlier, where they struggle with optimism and I’m going to ask some of these questions.

00:17:46:01 – 00:17:54:10
Dr. Mona
One of the questions I got is how to find this. So how to balance being optimistic and realistic.

00:17:54:12 – 00:18:14:04
Dr. Sue Varma
So optimism also can in an extreme form be a little bit dangerous because as you said it is burying your head in the sand where your head is in the cloud. And that’s what we call maybe toxic positivity where you just say rah rah thinking and woo thinking. And you know, I’m just going to, I don’t know, manifestly put good vibes in the in the universe 100%.

00:18:14:04 – 00:18:35:09
Dr. Sue Varma
I am not at all against manifesting and putting good vibes and making it known what we want, but then it also has to be balanced with validation or acknowledging where someone’s at, to telling someone look on the bright side after they’ve just experienced something really traumatic or just snap out of it is minimizing. It’s undermining even if it is coming from a good place.

00:18:35:09 – 00:19:02:02
Dr. Sue Varma
Even if you are well-intentioned and want the best, and you don’t want to see someone mired in negativity. So it’s very common to say, hey, you’re thinking about the worst case scenario. Have you ever thought about the best case scenario? Have you ever thought about the most likely scenario? So you can be coming from a good place, but I think it’s really important to create a safe space for someone to be able to express and vent some of that negative thoughts, and at the same time, they also need some self-awareness to be like, listen, where has my negativity got me?

00:19:02:05 – 00:19:22:08
Dr. Sue Varma
So if I’m frozen, if I’m passive, if I’m paralyzed, for that person to be able to acknowledge, maybe with their help to say, listen, I’m so grateful that you picked up something and there’s a joke. If you want accuracy, go to a pessimist. But if you want action, go to an optimist because the awkwardness is going to take what they learned, right and hopefully make a decision based on that.

00:19:22:10 – 00:19:37:07
Dr. Sue Varma
So recognize are you on this one end of the spectrum where like if a patient comes to us and they’re like, okay, to the patient, you have your cholesterol is elevated and you have all these different like lab testing, blind optimist, what we call posture defect bearing the head in the sand might be like, no, no, no, it’ll work itself out.

00:19:37:09 – 00:19:54:00
Dr. Sue Varma
Don’t worry about my my cholesterol. You just take care of yourself. I’m good. And you’re like, no, I’m glad that you think it’s going to work out. But what are the lifestyle interventions we’re going to make? What are the modifications? So being able to utilize say listen, you are a person. If you would, identify as a pessimist, you have a superpower.

00:19:54:00 – 00:20:07:04
Dr. Sue Varma
And now you can read things and see things and somehow you’re very in tune with other people’s emotions. Right? But then at the same time, don’t let your skepticism and cynicism trap you.

00:20:07:06 – 00:20:23:26
Dr. Mona
Another question I got is how would you recommend dealing with someone in your life, say, a partner who is not as optimistic and it feels like their attitude is weighing the whole home down? You know, talking about that energy vibe of optimism, how would you approach the situation?

00:20:23:29 – 00:20:53:18
Dr. Sue Varma
Yes. Okay, so I am a psychiatrist. So in my mind when I’m talking to someone, I have the ability to also ask questions or think about. And you be in position about anxiety and depression. Right. So I want to make it clear that if a person is contending with, let’s say, generalized anxiety disorder, one of the things the hallmarks of worry that lasts more than six months and worries about a variety of things in your life, and it is also combined with physical symptoms of restlessness and insomnia, muscle tension.

00:20:53:21 – 00:21:12:25
Dr. Sue Varma
Sometimes, it goes along with fatigue and concentration problems, and women are more likely twice as likely to have generalized anxiety disorder. It affects 5% or more of the population. And so telling this person to look on the bright side when they have a legitimate anxiety disorder, it’s not going to solve the problem, but they really do would benefit from cognitive behavioral therapy.

00:21:12:27 – 00:21:30:12
Dr. Sue Varma
And also same thing with depression. You can’t, you know, think your way positively out of depression. So as a physician, I have to be able to say that disclaimer that like, yes, I wrote a book on practical optimism and I want everyone to practice it, but I say it doesn’t take the place of therapy, of individualized care, of someone being able to be like, you know what?

00:21:30:12 – 00:21:52:06
Dr. Sue Varma
I think that the pessimism has now gotten to a place where it’s interfering with your ability to act or to carry out day to day things, or it might be affecting your relationship where it is bringing down the energy level, right? Is it a mild depression? Is it languishing, which is basically like feeling kind of empty or stagnant and bored and not really thriving and like not living your best life, so to speak.

00:21:52:06 – 00:22:11:10
Dr. Sue Varma
You know, where you’re taking on challenges, where you feel like you’re growing, where you feel like you’re open and receptive. So I often say that sometimes depression and anxiety can obscure our purpose in life. It can sometimes make us look like a pessimist. And then when a person gets treatment like, let’s say, cognitive behavioral therapy, 8 or 10 sessions and then you’re like, oh my God.

00:22:11:12 – 00:22:30:14
Dr. Sue Varma
Like I still practice this on myself, right? It’s been years that I did the training. But in a moment, if, let’s say I’m personalizing something, let’s say I emailed someone and, you know, it’s been a week and I haven’t heard back, my initial tendency might be like, oh my God, I did something, I’ve alienated them, or my mind will want to go there.

00:22:30:14 – 00:22:47:17
Dr. Sue Varma
And then I have to say like, okay, let me step back. Could there be an alternative explanation? Maybe they’re busy, maybe they’re traveling, maybe they’re sick. Maybe it has nothing to do with me. Right? So right when we’re dealing with a partner, the first thing is, you know, getting a gut sense of how are they functioning not just at home, but in every aspect of their life.

00:22:47:17 – 00:23:05:14
Dr. Sue Varma
And then thinking about, is there an anxiety or depression? And if it’s not, if it’s just a personality trait, let’s say they do. They’re thriving in all aspects of their life. Then say, hey, would you consider that you have a tendency? And I give people in this book, in one of the first chapters, a 40 question quiz that basically breaks down.

00:23:05:14 – 00:23:22:05
Dr. Sue Varma
I’m not going to tell you how the answer is. A great answer is broken down, but each question kind of maps out to a pivot, and it basically at the end you figure out, what do I need a little bit more TLC, right? Is it in my purpose? Do I wake up feeling excited in my day? But am I able to process my emotions?

00:23:22:07 – 00:23:43:23
Dr. Sue Varma
Am I able to give people the benefit of the doubt? Am I able to problem solve like even though I’m mired in my negativity, does it actually interfere or cause impairment in functioning? Am I able to make lasting friendships? Do I feel secure? What is my attachment style? So I give people tons of quizzes, interactive exercises where they can figure out where do they fall on the optimism spectrum?

00:23:43:25 – 00:24:01:06
Dr. Sue Varma
Where do they fall on the pessimism spectrum? And then how do they boost one and kind of try to mitigate or minimize the other one? So it’s a process. It’s a journey. I mean, I wish I could say that just wave your magic wand and all of a sudden, yeah, it’s not that simple. It starts with self-awareness. It starts with I get it.

00:24:01:06 – 00:24:10:23
Dr. Sue Varma
I can see where I could be improving, I can see where I need help. And maybe like for some people it might be reading the book and also getting therapy. Both.

00:24:10:25 – 00:24:43:26
Dr. Mona
Well, the reason why I love having a mental health professional on the show is that you can provide that sort of disclaimer and nuance, which sometimes is lacking in the self-help, quote unquote, space, because people will say, well, yeah, it’s just a mindset shift. Just change your mindset. When you said beautifully what obviously I know to be true, and I hope people listening understand, is that when you’re starting to see a pattern, we got to rule out the things that actually need more than a book or more than a course, or more than a influencer content creator saying do this or do that, because then you need to find out, well, what is the intent

00:24:43:26 – 00:25:03:21
Dr. Mona
or what is going on here. And using anxiety and depression as an example, my husband dealt with pessimism that was largely fueled by anxiety and depression. So how could he find the problem solving skill? How could he find the eight pillars that you talk about? And he needed to go to therapy. And and I love that you brought that up because I dealt with that from a personal aspect.

00:25:03:24 – 00:25:25:01
Dr. Mona
And really also, I’m just grateful that you’re opening up the normalization of therapy not only because you, you know, obviously you’re a psychiatrist, but the fact that you were on the receiving end of therapy, I also normalize that on my show. I have gone to therapy, currently doing therapy for trauma therapy. And I think when people hear these sort of, oh, I’m going to get a quick fix on how to become more optimistic.

00:25:25:08 – 00:25:51:26
Dr. Mona
You’re seeing it beautifully. It’s a book plus the work plus maybe, in person one on one or virtual therapist. Now let’s take a break to hear from our sponsors. Another question I often get asked, on my social media channels when it comes to optimism. And maybe you have personal insight into this is how would you, talk to, maybe a mother or father, but I have a lot of moms in my community who are struggling with dealing with the unexpected.

00:25:51:26 – 00:26:06:15
Dr. Mona
So change in a plan. The baby’s not sleeping when they should. Acute illnesses like people are really struggling with how they can align themselves in that moment and get through those, like, little, little moments that compound. What would you say to them?

00:26:06:18 – 00:26:27:01
Dr. Sue Varma
Yes, and that’s such a great way to put it, like little moments that compound. And I would say a few things. One is really boost your, sound ation of stress management because when we look at stress, not all stress is bad, right? There’s you stress you and the word stress as one word and distress. And what turned something in from you?

00:26:27:02 – 00:26:45:17
Dr. Sue Varma
Stress, which is, let’s say positive thing for planning a wedding or, you know, having a baby, which are things that you wanted, right? I call them challenges of choice. Things that you signed up for, maybe a work promotion that you finally got, but then you’re finding, oh, my God, this is taking up a lot of time, and I’m now managing an even bigger team.

00:26:45:17 – 00:27:03:10
Dr. Sue Varma
And, like, I need a lot of help, so. But sometimes beautiful things that we’ve wanted and chosen in our life can also be stressful. And being able to acknowledge the duality and the complexity and the paradox, because a lot of times, for example, let’s say a parent, a new parent, is talking to their friend who doesn’t have a kid.

00:27:03:12 – 00:27:29:10
Dr. Sue Varma
They may want a child. That person may say, well, you signed up for this, right? Or you know, don’t complain. You know, I would do anything to be in your shoes or whatever it might be. So I think that it creates safe spaces where we’re allowed to complain about being a parent and to be able to say how hard it is and not feel shamed that we’re a bad parent or a bad person for finding complexity and challenge in chosen activities.

00:27:29:12 – 00:27:53:16
Dr. Sue Varma
So give ourselves grace and be able to have not a black and white thinking, but allow for shades of gray. The other thing is to boost our foundation by getting proper sleep as much as possible to limiting alcohol and substances. And you know, I always talk about therapy. Yes, but, you know, carefully, getting an evaluation where maybe medication for somebody in addition to talk therapy can be helpful.

00:27:53:16 – 00:28:17:22
Dr. Sue Varma
So getting a comprehensive annual screening that includes anxiety and depression screening and giving time for your mental health when you do have your primary care doctor this I think it’s so important that your foundation learning skills, whether it’s practical optimism, you know, emotional regulation, whatever it might be, stress management, coping during peace time. So we don’t wait for the second shoe to drop.

00:28:17:22 – 00:28:40:28
Dr. Sue Varma
Right. So like beef up your mechanisms at baseline when people are like in the midst of anxiety. Yeah I can’t meditate. Yeah. No crap. You can’t meditate right. Like your anxiety is through the roof, right? Like you’re not going to be able to access a new skill in the midst of crisis. So using peace time because life is just a series of crises on some level.

00:28:41:01 – 00:28:59:20
Dr. Sue Varma
Sometimes you fall, like I say then that little to your trauma, right? The daily hassles and sometimes are big teeth, right? Like the life threatening ones. And then there’s all everything in between. So now I’ve learned that I need to allow myself time, almost like a crisis hour, because there’s every day there’s something happening that I had not anticipated.

00:28:59:20 – 00:29:19:26
Dr. Sue Varma
I’m getting a call from the kids school. Come pick them up in the middle of the day, somebody sick or crisis with the patients. So I think allowing yourself a little buffer in time, even to say, I’m going to pad my schedule with at least an hour or two of some wiggle room in case something comes up. But I feel like sleep is really crucial, and I feel like a lot of young, early parents are not.

00:29:19:26 – 00:29:27:15
Dr. Sue Varma
They don’t have that right. So everything becomes that much more magnified if your foundation isn’t protected.

00:29:27:18 – 00:29:47:12
Dr. Mona
I absolutely agree with the sleep component. And you know, there’s such a culture right now on social media about parental sleep choices like, you know, shaming people who do sleep training or shaming the alternative. And at the end of the day, my philosophy is we need to do what can get the best maximum sleep for the development stage of that child.

00:29:47:12 – 00:30:06:17
Dr. Mona
Right? So knowing that the first six months is all over the place, but after that, there are things that we can do to extend sleep, maybe sleep through the night, if that is what the family wants. And I love that you brought that up, because I preach this to all of my parents, that the foundation of everything we do, not only for our children but for ourselves, is getting sleep.

00:30:06:17 – 00:30:21:29
Dr. Mona
So when you’re sick, you got to go to sleep early. There’s no negotiating here. You got to sleep like. And that is an important boundary for us, for our children. And also, I think we forget that it needs to be an important boundary for ourself. And I think sometimes listeners can hear, well, I don’t have time for sleep.

00:30:21:29 – 00:30:46:24
Dr. Mona
And I’m going to throw out that, that comment that you have time to go on your phone, you have time to shut it down and go to sleep early. And knowing that your child may be up at six, calculate it, prioritize it so that it can really have an impact on your mental health. And you know, I love I love what you’re saying about how we can build our tolerance for these things because like we discussed, these are a little things that absolutely can add.

00:30:46:24 – 00:31:05:00
Dr. Mona
But as a pediatrician, when I’m in my office, I will see mothers come in and I’ll see one mom in my head. I’m like, wow, she’s a lot going on, but look at how she’s managing this. And then I’ll have another mom who is so overwhelmed from things that I’m like, why are we so overwhelmed? So I also get curious, like you did and wrote a whole book about it.

00:31:05:00 – 00:31:27:25
Dr. Mona
As to how is it that some people, one person can be out of train and the train is lead and that person is like so grateful and reading the book and another person is complaining and upset that whole again duality and dichotomy of like how people experience things is so fascinating to me. And also that last point that you mentioned about having more compassion for people who choose these experiences.

00:31:27:25 – 00:31:46:28
Dr. Mona
You said it perfectly like, you know, just because you chose to be a mom, just because you chose to accept that promotion doesn’t mean we can accept that it’s hard, but I think society lacks a lot of that, that well, you should have known this when you signed up for it. And then people feel lost and people feel like they can’t feel they can’t, quote unquote, complain.

00:31:47:01 – 00:31:52:01
Dr. Mona
And then when you don’t have that freedom, it leads to internalizing it. And not getting to process it.

00:31:52:04 – 00:32:13:09
Dr. Sue Varma
Totally. Absolutely. And then, you know, I would say one of the key things that we’re talking about, like when people come into your office, I was going to say is like your belief in your own ability to manage stress and regulate emotions is one of the pillars, actually, of proactive optimism. And it’s called proficiency and self-efficacy. And do I have efficacy or agency over my own emotions.

00:32:13:11 – 00:32:31:06
Dr. Sue Varma
So let’s say when the train is late, how do I I have a tendency to respond when things don’t work out in my favor. Do I feel that I have the necessary tools and resources to manage effectively what’s about to come? And so that’s one of the keys when you look at, how do some people survive? Barely.

00:32:31:06 – 00:32:48:29
Dr. Sue Varma
And some people thrive in stressful situation and that feeling of competence. And you talked about this with your mom like, we’ll get through this, right? Like that’s the beauty of either optimism or practical optimism is that they say everything is figure out a ball. We’ll figure it out. Right? We’ll call someone. We’ll call five people we need to like.

00:32:48:29 – 00:33:06:26
Dr. Sue Varma
It’s kind of like, okay, this sounds very simple, but like when your toilet is broken, right? Like you would probably go through, like a protocol in your mind or an algorithm to be like, okay, I’m going to first step, take the plunger. That doesn’t work. I’m going to use. But then I will call right to think of this is what we really have to go stop.

00:33:06:28 – 00:33:30:21
Dr. Sue Varma
People who have a tendency to get overwhelmed very easily is to say, let’s figure it out what skills and tools, and this is what you do in therapy is to be like, all right, if this did happen, then what? And the beauty is what I found. And the studies have shown that 85% of the time, the things that we worry about never actually happen, and the 15% of the time that we do, we are better equipped to handle them than we give ourselves credit for.

00:33:30:24 – 00:33:47:12
Dr. Sue Varma
So think about that. Most likely the bad thing you’re thinking about not happening, right? And if it did happen, what would you do? How would you manage it? And I think it’s really important for people when they frequently experience anxiety. Anxiety has to do with this idea that the world is scary and I don’t know how to manage it.

00:33:47:14 – 00:33:58:13
Dr. Sue Varma
So we work on two things. One is your perception of the world not being as scary as it is, and then also boosting your own agency and your own skill so that if the world is scary, how will you handle?

00:33:58:15 – 00:34:17:18
Dr. Mona
Oh beautiful, I love this. I could talk optimism, practical optimism all day because again, I just think, like you said at the beginning, not only is this something that we have to practice, it’s a very useful skill set and a useful practice for our well-being. Not only physical, but mental. What would be a final message for everyone listening today?

00:34:17:20 – 00:34:38:21
Dr. Sue Varma
Yes, I would say take care of your mental health as if your life depends on it, because it does does. And the more as a parent, the more confident and competent, well-rested, compassionate you are for yourself, for your partner, for your family member, for your child, you know the happier the family will be, right? And that there’s no shame in accepting help and there’s no shame in acknowledging that.

00:34:38:21 – 00:34:56:11
Dr. Sue Varma
Like, I could do some things a little bit better. And I would say that even if you are an optimist, you know, take a look at practical optimism and say, you know, where do I want to thrive? What have I neglected? I know a lot of moms. I know I did put a lot of things on the back burner, you know, and now, you know, writing this book, for example, there was a lot of sacrifices.

00:34:56:11 – 00:35:16:28
Dr. Sue Varma
And I’m proud of it. But it also took me away from other things. So, you know, understanding that, like, we’re not going to have everything all at once, and that’s okay. But different seasons of our lives will allow us to do different things. And it’s okay to reevaluate, you know, step by step. But mental health kind of has to be front and center of our priorities.

00:35:17:01 – 00:35:30:02
Dr. Mona
Beautifully said. I agree with that. From an early age, it’s a huge priority. Doctor Verma, thank you so much for joining us. Where can people find the book? Yes, optimizer. And where can they stay connected with you?

00:35:30:04 – 00:35:50:12
Dr. Sue Varma
Yes. Thank you. So practical optimism is available wherever books are sold. It’s out now. And please stay in touch with me on Instagram. It’s at Doctor Sue Varma, the full word doctor and my website is also Doctor varma.com the former doctor. So looking forward. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. I love the work that you do so inspirational, so fun, so relatable.

00:35:50:12 – 00:36:03:08
Dr. Sue Varma
I feel like everyone you know we all watching, we’re like, thank you. Thank you for being so open and so honest. Even in this conversation and sharing everything that you’ve gone through and been through and true inspiration to watch you and to learn from you. So thank you.

00:36:03:10 – 00:36:24:10
Dr. Mona
The feeling is mutual. I didn’t know, I’m going to be quite honest. I didn’t know of you until recently, and now I’m like, how did I not know her? Right? That happened so much in the social media space where I connect with someone and then I’m like, this person is like who I want to learn from. And, you know, I have solo episodes on the show that I talk about a lot of the things you talked about, but not from a psychiatrist mental health professional standpoint.

00:36:24:10 – 00:36:46:26
Dr. Mona
But for me, all the things that I’ve learned in life, and I always put disclaimers on those episodes that, hey, if you’re struggling with mental health, remember not to dismiss anxiety and depression. And so when I can get the real professionals on to talk about these issues, it is so important to me. So the feeling is mutual, because I believe that the best parenting podcast out there has to focus on the parent, right?

00:36:46:26 – 00:37:03:22
Dr. Mona
Not just the child, not just like, well, how are you going to get through a tantrum? How are you going to handle potty training? It’s really going backwards and saying, why are you struggling with your child’s feelings? Why are you struggling with the fact that your child got sick for the third time? What is the psychological issue here that you’re dealing with?

00:37:03:22 – 00:37:08:23
Dr. Mona
And so thank you. I cannot wait to connect in future episodes and professionally as well.

00:37:08:25 – 00:37:12:03
Dr. Sue Varma
Absolutely. Thank you so much. I’ve great talking to you. Yeah.

00:37:12:06 – 00:37:31:20
Dr. Mona
And for everyone listening, I hope you enjoyed our conversation. I hope you can bring a lot or a little more practical optimism into your life. If you’re struggling with this, or even just want to check out the book, make sure you buy Practical Optimism, which is available wherever books are sold. Fillable now, and make sure you write a review or leave a rating.

00:37:31:20 – 00:37:41:18
Dr. Mona
If you love this conversation, shout out Doctor Verma! Tag us on your social media channels when you share the episode. So we know that you love this conversation, and I cannot wait to chat with another guest next time.