When your kid says “I hate my body,” every part of you wants to rush in and fix it. I get it. In this episode, I sit down with Zoe Bisbing, a licensed psychotherapist, to talk about why that rush to reassure can backfire and what to say instead. The goal isn’t for our kids to love their bodies all the time and this one changed how I think about my own body too. 

We discuss:

• What body positivity actually means

• How I learned postpartum that I didn’t have to love my body to take care of it

• Why saying “Don’t say that, you’re beautiful” can shut down a child who is hurting

• That some kids notice their bodies as young a sage three

• How even kind compliments about looks can make kids more focused on their appearance

• How getting help for yourself is one of the best things you can do for your kid

To connect with Zoe Bisbing follow her on Instagram @mybodypositivehome and read her Substack: https://substack.com/@bodypositivehome?r=hlot0&utm_medium=ios

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00;00;32;19 – 00;00;51;25

Dr. Mona

Welcome back to the award winning PedsDocTalk podcast. I’m so grateful for you. Before we get started, thank you for continuing to support the show. We are going to be entering, I think, our seventh year next year. So remember, every download, review and share helps us get these conversations to more families. And I really appreciate you being here.

00;00;51;28 – 00;01;14;15

Dr. Mona

Now let’s get into this conversation today. When did we start becoming so critical of our bodies? When did we go from being little kids who ran around, climbed things, danced and enjoyed what our bodies could do to adults who can look in the mirror and immediately find something we don’t like? And as parents, how do we raise kids who appreciate their bodies when so many of us are still working on our own relationship with ours?

00;01;14;18 – 00;01;38;18

Dr. Mona

Today’s guest is Zoe Bisping, a licensed psychotherapist and founder of Body Positive Therapy NYC. She specializes in eating disorders and body image concerns, with a focus on prevention, early detection and helping families before these struggles become more serious. I love that approach. She’s also the creator of Body Positive Home, a bestselling Substack and learning community for parents and educators.

00;01;38;20 – 00;01;57;23

Dr. Mona

Through her clinical work, writing and speaking, she’s helping parents rethink how we talk about bodies, food, and self-worth. And I have to tell you, Zoe has a reframe about body positivity and body image that I think is going to really resonate with you. It certainly did with me. We’re talking about what body positivity actually means and where people get it wrong.

00;01;57;25 – 00;02;23;11

Dr. Mona

Why loving our bodies every single day may not be the most realistic goal, and what Zoe calls body image resilience. We’re also discussing what to see when your child tells you they hate something about their body. How our own body comments affects our kids and the connection between food, body image, and self-worth. And if you’ve ever looked in the mirror and struggled with what you see, I think we all have, or worried about passing those feelings onto your kids.

00;02;23;16 – 00;02;43;02

Dr. Mona

You are not alone. This conversation is going to really resonate. But before we get into make sure you subscribe to the show, download this episode and share it with someone who would appreciate this conversation and maybe watch it on YouTube. If you want to see us talk. And if you’re sharing on social Tag, the PedsDocTalk podcast, PedsDocTalk and My Body Positive Home.

00;02;43;05 – 00;02;51;10

Dr. Mona

Let’s get into this incredibly important conversation.

00;02;51;13 – 00;02;54;00

Dr. Mona

Zoe, thank you so much for joining me today.

00;02;54;03 – 00;02;55;20

Zoe Bisbing

Thank you for having me.

00;02;55;22 – 00;03;12;11

Dr. Mona

1. I love giving an origin story on how I meet some of my guests. So some of my guests reach out to me. They fill out a form or they DM me and I’m like, yeah, this is an amazing topic. And then somehow sometimes I find accounts through my explore page, right? Like videos come up. And so that’s what happened for you.

00;03;12;11 – 00;03;43;20

Dr. Mona

I was like, oh my gosh, this was such a great video and such a great account. And so I reached out and here we are recording. And so I was so excited because I feel like as a pediatrician, I think this is such an important thing. I believe that our role as parents is so important in setting healthy foundations, so kids can have a healthy relationship with sleep, with their feelings, with meals and food, with emotions, and also along the lines of meals and food with self-worth and body image.

00;03;43;21 – 00;03;56;04

Dr. Mona

And so I was like, who better to talk about this than someone who has spent their entire career working with families like this? What led you into this work, and what has been the most rewarding thing that you do every day in your job?

00;03;56;07 – 00;04;17;19

Zoe Bisbing

What led me into this work? I mean, I, I always knew I wanted to work in body image eating disorders from my own experience and lived experience with a body and a, you know, intergenerational shame and all of those things that we all have diet culture to thank for. So I knew I wanted to kind of go in that direction.

00;04;17;19 – 00;04;52;24

Zoe Bisbing

But as I became a parent, I started to become mildly fixated on this idea of, well, first, you know, supporting kids and teens, which is my specialty, training in the treatment of adolescent and, child eating disorders. But as I got deeper into early parenthood, I became pretty fixated on the prevention research and like, what we can actually do on the front end to, you know, I used to joke to like, put myself out of business so that no one needs me as a clinician.

00;04;52;26 – 00;05;19;20

Zoe Bisbing

And so I think that, I don’t know, just enough working in the eating disorder space and seeing how many people struggle, even with subclinical eating disorders that never even feel like they deserve or are sick enough for treatment, like, it just I don’t know, it just felt like more people need support than are getting it. And I love treating eating disorders and people who are actively suffering.

00;05;19;22 – 00;05;36;16

Zoe Bisbing

But when I started to discover there was so much that we can be doing on the front end, not always to prevent, but certainly mitigate risks. You know, and then just having that lived experience as a parent, it’s just nothing ignites an interest in that more than seeing your own child and say, well, what can I do?

00;05;36;17 – 00;05;37;23

Zoe Bisbing

What’s the most I can do?

00;05;38;01 – 00;05;51;27

Dr. Mona

Well, thanks for the work you do, and I agree. I hope one day you’re out of business in a good way. Okay. Like meaning you can ride into the sunset and just know that you’ve helped the world. Because you are. And the reason I’m so excited to chat with you is that sometimes we can hear a lot of terminology, right?

00;05;51;28 – 00;06;18;22

Dr. Mona

Body dysmorphia, body positivity, neutrality, body resiliency. So I would love to do just like a vocabulary definition lesson as you view it. I mean maybe you might be different from someone else. So body positivity is everywhere right now, but it means very different things depending on who you ask. So when you strip away diet culture, how that’s impacted everything, what is body positivity to you and where has it maybe gotten misunderstood?

00;06;18;24 – 00;06;43;09

Zoe Bisbing

And positivity is so deeply misunderstood, to the point where sometimes I wonder if it has just it has just gotten a new meaning, right? Because it’s so deeply misunderstood. And I sometimes personally struggle with that, especially since, like so much of my brand uses body positive. Yeah, language. But I am an originalist when it comes to its interpretation.

00;06;43;09 – 00;07;13;18

Zoe Bisbing

And I think that what’s important to understand is that body positivity is not really related to how you feel about your own body. Which is a little confusing for people because body and positivity are sitting right next to each other. But body positivity has roots in social justice. That right. It’s about centering marginalized bodies and declaring that those bodies right, the body is.

00;07;13;18 – 00;07;43;25

Zoe Bisbing

When you think about the worst body, you could imagine the when you don’t want the when you don’t want your kid to have the, you know, most horrible body is a sadly we all body biased. So like you’ve got one in your head right? Yeah. Body positivity says yeah, that body is a human being. That body deserves equal access to all things, including self respect, self love and a positive relationship with one’s own body.

00;07;43;25 – 00;08;09;22

Zoe Bisbing

Yep, even that most horrible, hideous body you’re thinking of. And that is not necessarily possible because we live in this culture that has a very clear idea of very clear body hierarchies. So people that live in marginalized bodies, their, journey towards body acceptance is not the same as somebody who lives in a body that is more acceptable right to our, our, our culture.

00;08;09;24 – 00;08;38;10

Zoe Bisbing

So the very body that we’re centering in this idea of body positivity, that person might not have access to a positive relationship with their body. Right? However, what body positivity is, is a valued system that says that person deserves it even if they can’t access it. So body positivity is a value system. You can have body positive values and terrible body image because the and they are interconnected.

00;08;38;10 – 00;08;58;27

Zoe Bisbing

We can talk about that. But I think the biggest thing I want to clear up is that this is really a social justice movement. It’s a value system. It’s not about, loving your body. It’s not anti health. It’s like not anti nutrition. It’s none of the things that people think it means. Anyway the so the short answer.

00;08;59;04 – 00;09;26;05

Dr. Mona

Well I mean you already differentiated two things. So obviously you differentiated body image from body positivity. Right. Like that was huge for me. And then I love how you talked about this sort of body positivity being more understanding of others. So when we think about the what people are, I think, and I probably may have had that same misconception that it could be, sometimes people feel like it’s a more egocentric thing, meaning what I think about myself versus you’re saying that it’s what we think about bodies in general that may not look like ours.

00;09;26;10 – 00;10;02;13

Zoe Bisbing

Yes, that’s right, I love that’s right. Okay. There can be a boomerang effect, meaning that if you have, a body positive value system or let’s say you’re really working on it, a lot of people have to work towards that because there’s so much body bias to we’d whack through. But the thing about body positivity, which is why I think it’s so protective for families and kids in particular, and really all of us, is that the more you challenge yourself to view all bodies as good bodies, the harder it becomes to hate your own, because you can start to appreciate that bodies are diverse.

00;10;02;15 – 00;10;20;25

Zoe Bisbing

They enjoy the different levels of privilege and access, and my body is just another body in the tapestry of body diversity. Interesting. It’s protective for body image, but body image is a perceptual phenomenon that is is either, egocentric as you described.

00;10;20;27 – 00;10;34;15

Dr. Mona

I love this because I think that already off the bat, like I said, I love a good definition and I think you are right on. You hit the nail on the head that we probably have been mislabeling this. And I think that is a very important distinction. And so I learned something. So thank you. I love when I have guests.

00;10;34;15 – 00;10;50;17

Dr. Mona

I knew this would happen. I’d be like, this makes total sense. And, you know, one of the things that I’ve seen across of generations, right? I’m a kid of the 80s, I’m now in my 40s. Is that the goalposts continues to move for bodies. Right. We think about women, right? We think about back in the 60s, it was that curvaceous.

00;10;50;17 – 00;11;19;00

Dr. Mona

And then it became the rail thin models. And then now it’s like your BBL girls, your curves. But you have to be thin at the waist. So I always describe it in my, in my community as the goalpost is always moving. So we can’t be chasing that. Right. So why do you know, do you think obviously a lot of this issue with the misconceptions on body positivity or where we’re at right now, what are you think are the factors that have kind of led us to this point of people not having body positivity besides the stigma?

00;11;19;01 – 00;11;21;10

Dr. Mona

You said, that has been created.

00;11;21;13 – 00;11;45;20

Zoe Bisbing

I mean, it’s it’s like a very it’s actually a really complicated question. Yeah. I, I think that body positivity, it’s like it’s both misunderstood and it’s, it’s not that popular right now. You know, I mean, I think that it was gaining, if you think about it as a social movement from the 60s, I don’t think it had mainstream popularity.

00;11;45;20 – 00;12;09;25

Zoe Bisbing

In the 2000, it got more popular. Thanks to social media, but it also got misunderstood and excluded. I think the people that it originally was designed for, and I’m always honest, like it was not designed for or by people that look like me. I enjoy a lot of like body privilege, unearned, you know? So I think in the 2000, like you started to see that hashtag body positive.

00;12;09;25 – 00;12;33;28

Zoe Bisbing

I think it was gaining a little bit more popularity. I think you started to have more diverse representation, like it started to be. I think it started to feel a little bit more okay to, you know, embrace yourself as you are. And then I think it’s hard to ignore the rise of GLP ones and sort of the kind of the body trend.

00;12;33;28 – 00;12;58;11

Zoe Bisbing

As you said, the goalpost keeps moving, you know. So I think that it’s it’s sort of falling out of favor. I think a lot of people who were prominent and, you know, influencers that we’re trying to sort of promote body acceptance in larger body sizes, in particular, who are now for many of reasons that we just don’t know about, right, are making personal choices to, change.

00;12;58;11 – 00;13;17;28

Zoe Bisbing

And I think that, you know, again, body positivity has gone nowhere because there are still plenty of people that need it. I think we all need it to be decent human beings, and, respectful of our neighbors and our children and ourselves. But I think it also has to do with sort of what field. I mean, to use the word popular like, because what trends have to do with popularity.

00;13;17;28 – 00;13;41;07

Zoe Bisbing

But it’s deeper than that. I think it’s about, belonging, you know, and feeling safe. So it’s like it’s not feeling as safe right now to just be who you are. And it doesn’t always feel so safe in families. It doesn’t always feel so safe. Right? Whether we’re talking about your body sheet size or your gender expression or your sexuality, like, you know, I know, you know, I don’t know if that answered the question, but yeah, I want.

00;13;41;10 – 00;14;01;13

Dr. Mona

No, absolutely. And I think it is that sort of like, again, there’s a lot of layers to it. And I think, I think one of the things that I’m seeing parents struggle with, and I think this may be more definitions coming my way, but many parents tell me that they just want their child to love their body and maybe a lot of those same parents have struggles with them loving their own body as well.

00;14;01;13 – 00;14;21;20

Dr. Mona

You’ve already talked about how this isn’t just about self-love, it’s about other bodies. Love. And I love how you said that it’s when you view other bodies in a positive light you can stop hating your own. That was really powerful for me. So is teaching our children to love their body. Is that the goal or should we be aiming for something that’s more sustainable and does body resilience come into that?

00;14;21;20 – 00;14;25;24

Dr. Mona

What would that mean? Like what should we be trying to instill in a value in our child?

00;14;25;26 – 00;14;53;22

Zoe Bisbing

Yeah, I always I, I invite parents to like drop the whole try to get your kid to love their body like some some kids just will, you know, and some people just will be able to access that body. Love. Like, you know, it’s not my goal for my kids and or for my patients. Like, I don’t think it’s realistic, given that we live in this culture with such extreme, ideals.

00;14;53;22 – 00;15;13;16

Zoe Bisbing

Like you said, the goalpost is always moving. Like, how are you supposed to love your body if you live in a culture that’s telling you you shouldn’t? Yeah, it’s too hard, you know, that’s the kind of toxic positivity that I think we need to just sort of like, say goodbye to that. That being said, and you, you will you named it, I think aiming for.

00;15;13;19 – 00;15;37;12

Zoe Bisbing

And we can let’s go vocabulary. We can talk about positive body image or what I like to call body image resilience. In the literature. Positive body image does not mean feeling positive towards your body all the time. You know it doesn’t, but it has the same problem that body positivity does. It’s right there in the title, right? Yeah, positive body image.

00;15;37;12 – 00;16;02;14

Zoe Bisbing

I don’t want parents thinking, well I want my kid just positive body image meaning I want them to be positive about their body all the time. That’s not what positive body image even is. But I think what is it’s more helpful is this idea of body image resilience, meaning that we want our kids to have, like stable body image, good enough body image to withstand a lot of negative thoughts and feelings about their bodies that are inevitable.

00;16;02;14 – 00;16;22;10

Zoe Bisbing

Right? I’m a realist. It’s hard to have a body in this culture. It’s hard to have a body that ages and changes and gets sick and doesn’t work in the way that we wish it could, or isn’t as tall as we want it to be. All of these things. This is part of the human experience. If you’re a human, you are a body like you don’t.

00;16;22;11 – 00;16;51;11

Zoe Bisbing

That’s your deal with being a human. So I want body image resilience, which to me feels very intuitive. It’s like I want my kids and my clients and myself to be able to appreciate what my body allows me to do and be right. I want to be able to tolerate it when I’m maybe not loving it so much, and I want to be able to take care of it even when I hate it, and I want to be able to respect it.

00;16;51;11 – 00;17;09;25

Zoe Bisbing

It’s like there’s lots of properties. I think that kind of go into what allows for body image resilience. But I’m looking for something, like you said, much more sustainable. And feeling positively about your body all the time is just ridiculous. Like, what’s not even bother.

00;17;09;28 – 00;17;31;10

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show. I am already loving this reframe of like tying it into toxic positivity, because I felt like I felt like postpartum was when this really happened for me, right? I had a huge body shift, as most women do, right? I mean, everyone can agree to that.

00;17;31;12 – 00;17;52;29

Dr. Mona

And then there’s this culture also that says, embrace your body. Your body has changed. It grew. And I didn’t like that because that actually made me feel like I don’t love my body right now. It doesn’t. I can be okay saying that. And you said it perfectly. Like once I started being okay, that I don’t have to love it and I can tolerate it, is when I started taking care of it better, right?

00;17;52;29 – 00;18;07;28

Dr. Mona

Like that? Was it like so my goal post, my my goal wasn’t to get back down to a certain size. It was that I want to feed it with healthy nutrition. I want to move my body because it’s healthy for me, not because I want to get back down to a size two, because that may never be happening for me.

00;18;08;06 – 00;18;26;08

Dr. Mona

But I love that you’re not saying you got to love it, that you have to tolerate it, because that’s what it became for me. And I think mothers also, who may have dealt with shifts in their body throughout their years, or even if they’re not a mom, it’s so important to understand that that it’s okay to not love it at all times, because I do not love it.

00;18;26;08 – 00;18;43;28

Dr. Mona

Like I would look in the mirror and I hated it like I would say, gosh, like. But then it was that sort of understanding that, you know what? This is my body and I’m going to treat it right. And I the treating of it is what got me back to that sort of I love that term resilience of like, hey, I my body is resilient.

00;18;43;28 – 00;18;50;14

Dr. Mona

I’m resilient. It changes, it morphs. But I’m going to treat it well because that’s what bodies deserve to be done. Like that’s what we should be doing to our bodies.

00;18;50;18 – 00;19;03;12

Zoe Bisbing

Yeah. It’s totally it’s an accept. It’s a, it’s a, it’s body acceptance that does not require love and or positive feeling. It can be neutral. It can be grief.

00;19;03;15 – 00;19;03;26

Dr. Mona

Yeah.

00;19;03;27 – 00;19;27;16

Zoe Bisbing

I think that feeling body grief is a healthy part of body image resilience. To be able to name. I hate this, I hate what I see. I was having a session earlier today. It was a, you know, older client whose knees are starting to fail. It’s a gorgeous day. All she wants to do is walk. This is a lot like she hates that.

00;19;27;16 – 00;19;54;22

Zoe Bisbing

I’m not going to say like, oh, no, no, you should. You should feel no talk about how painful that is. And and also how can you show yourself respect and care and still get outside even with that pain. Right. Like so. Yeah. And I think there are kid friendly ways to, to nurture that. But yeah, we need to and if it and ultimately honestly if it means we need to just not say body positivity is too confusing.

00;19;54;22 – 00;20;17;16

Zoe Bisbing

It makes people think, oh, I gotta feel positive. Okay, maybe maybe I’ll I’ll rebrand at some point, you know, but it’s it’s really about body respect. And and when I say body respect going back to the spirit of body positivity, body respect for ourselves and others, I have respect for your body. You have respect for mine. And and we need that.

00;20;17;16 – 00;20;19;20

Zoe Bisbing

It’s collective. Yeah.

00;20;19;22 – 00;20;48;13

Dr. Mona

Oh, I, I told you that I would love all this terminology breakdown. Like I’m really. You just introduced body grief. And thank you so much for that example for like a I’m assuming that was an adult patient, right. These older have any example how we can apply it to maybe a child. Like maybe I know you’ve also worked with kids above ten like anyone in that 10 to 18 year age group that you’ve, you know, maybe a metaphor like a, an example that’s kind of made up or whatever of like how grief can look like in a, in a adolescent in terms of their body.

00;20;48;18 – 00;20;53;05

Zoe Bisbing

Oh my gosh, I mean, a kid, a teen any age who says I hate my body.

00;20;53;05 – 00;20;54;00

Dr. Mona

Yeah.

00;20;54;02 – 00;21;16;00

Zoe Bisbing

You know, my belly so fat, or why are my thighs bigger than hers? Or I’m the biggest one at that layer. I mean, these are the comments I, I mean, social media is where I hear most of these examples because those are the questions that I get in DMs. And I, this is body grief. You know, look, it’s sometimes it’s body dysmorphia.

00;21;16;00 – 00;21;35;07

Zoe Bisbing

Like, that’s the thing that we have to pay attention to sometimes when you know, and it’s not to say that they’re not, their feelings aren’t valid. But sometimes there are, you know, kids and adults that are genuinely struggling with bodies morphia, where maybe they’re in a very thin body and they are mis perceiving what they see. Right?

00;21;35;07 – 00;21;59;15

Zoe Bisbing

That is a psychiatric disorder that requires clinical intervention. Right. But sometimes kids are just observing the truth, right? Like that. Their belly is bigger than most of their friends like or that they are. Whatever. It doesn’t always come up around that. It’s like it can come up around a mole on my face the size of my nose or whatever the way my hair is.

00;21;59;17 – 00;22;21;23

Zoe Bisbing

And I do think that we’re, you know, I wouldn’t with a with a kid, I don’t tend to use the word body grief. And I would use that with the family, with the parent to, to give a framework for what’s happening, because I think that one of the worst things we can say to those kids is like, don’t say that or no, you’re not.

00;22;21;25 – 00;22;23;05

Zoe Bisbing

You’re not that. You’re beautiful.

00;22;23;05 – 00;22;24;12

Dr. Mona

Like, yeah, stop.

00;22;24;12 – 00;22;52;20

Zoe Bisbing

Saying those things because that is deeply invalidating. You’ve missed an opportunity to help that child build resilience, which is to help them learn how to sit with that pain and know that, like what you said at the beginning, almost like the health of the ability to feel, you know, you were talking about sleep and all of the things like it’s emotional resilience to be able to have a really hard, heavy feeling and know that it’s not going to kill you.

00;22;52;20 – 00;23;13;11

Zoe Bisbing

Right. This is how you feel, to normalize like that’s a hard body moment. A lot of people have hard body feelings, hard body moments. Sometimes that’s the language I’ll use instead of body grief. To ask them to tell you more about what they’re noticing. What happened? Like openers, you know, like, connect with kids in their body.

00;23;13;11 – 00;23;44;21

Zoe Bisbing

Grief. Right. And it’s not to say that you can’t also say, like, I just I love everything about you. I think, you know, your your body is so beautiful to me. It’s so hard to imagine thinking that way about it. And at the same time, I hear you. You really don’t like the shape of your belly. So it’s a it’s a little way around what you’re asking, but I think that at all ages, I mean, sadly, kids as young as three and four are saying these things like, hey, can you can you believe that?

00;23;44;21 – 00;23;48;20

Zoe Bisbing

That’s how young this starts. Like, yeah.

00;23;48;22 – 00;24;08;10

Dr. Mona

I, you know, like you said, like when a child says, I’m so fat, I hate my body. I think anything or like I give the example in a video that I did about when you’re rejected. Right. Like, obviously it has nothing to do with the body, but like, just see someone doesn’t sit with you in class. I think we as parents we are so Mama Bear want to protect our kids from sadness and feeling upset, right?

00;24;08;10 – 00;24;30;04

Dr. Mona

That we go into that panic mode and jump straight to the reassurance that you beautifully model. That is not always the best thing. Now you thank you so much for offering what to do instead. Like, I love that you mentioned that you’re connecting first, and then you’re also just getting curious about what they feel. Is there any other tip that you would add to that parent whose brain wants to go straight into that reassure?

00;24;30;04 – 00;24;41;00

Dr. Mona

Or it’s like you have the best body ever. What are you talking about? You’re beautiful. Is there anything else that you would want them to know that would help that situation, to open up that platform of building resilience versus shutting it down?

00;24;41;04 – 00;25;08;14

Zoe Bisbing

Yes, I, I actually I’m going to answer that. But I also want to say that even though you said that your video that you’re referring to is about, feeling rejected and not the same. I think actually there is a lot of similarities because ultimately when we are hating on our bodies, it it’s usually is connected to a fear of rejection, like something very primal that, you know, it’s not just that I hate the shape of my belly on some level.

00;25;08;14 – 00;25;29;02

Zoe Bisbing

It’s I hate the shape of my belly because I am intuiting that this belly is not acceptable in this world, and I am feeling a threat of rejection. So it’s an it’s just it’s just interesting. I didn’t miss that point. Here’s what I want to say to parents. If your child is coming to you to tell you this, you know, painful experience, right?

00;25;29;02 – 00;25;52;17

Zoe Bisbing

Whether they were called something or they hate something about their bodies, I want parents to reframe that as a like a win, like a parenting win, because if your child has felt safe enough with you to come to you and tell you this very vulnerable thing, you have done something very right because they are the alternative is they’re alone with that experience.

00;25;52;19 – 00;26;14;18

Zoe Bisbing

So what I want to say to the parent that has the mom, they’re urged to say, no, no, no, don’t say that. It’s well, don’t you want them to keep coming back to you again? The alternative being alone. The alternative is you come to me when you feel awful. You can tell me anything. I’ll sit with you and that you won’t be alone.

00;26;14;20 – 00;26;40;08

Zoe Bisbing

I won’t shut it down. I will sit with you. I will hear you out. I will support you. I will help you take good care of your body no matter how you’re feeling about it. And I’m going to thank you for every time you come to me with this, because I want to positively reinforce the behavior of coming to me, shutting you down via my don’t say that you’re perfect might discourage a child from coming to you.

00;26;40;10 – 00;26;41;22

Dr. Mona

Yeah.

00;26;41;24 – 00;26;48;18

Zoe Bisbing

And so do you want them to come to you or do you want them to be alone? I would encourage people to think about it that way.

00;26;48;20 – 00;27;11;05

Dr. Mona

I love that reframe. It’s it’s so true. And that’s actually, like you said, thank you so much for clarifying the the rejection piece, because that is so hard and and sad to hear. You know, I think of like, again, that mama bear mentality of like, oh my baby. Like no one wants their kid to feel rejected or that they don’t belong, whether it’s their how their brain works, how their body looks like, any part of their identity.

00;27;11;05 – 00;27;30;26

Dr. Mona

Right. And who they are like, that is a very hard thing for anyone to feel, especially a child that’s being molded and, you know, having to face the world, you know, and it’s really, really tough. The younger age group. I’m very curious because you alluded earlier to like how you see this start as early as, like sometimes three years old.

00;27;30;28 – 00;27;41;14

Dr. Mona

You know, I think there’s a misconception that body image issues begin in the adolescent era. Is there certain things that parents may do without even realize that may cause that early on that you would love parents to understand?

00;27;41;19 – 00;28;07;28

Zoe Bisbing

Yeah. I mean, I, I do, but I also want to back up and just name that some of this is nature. Like some of this is just the way, brains are wired, you know, like some kids are just preloaded to be extra, tuned in to their surroundings. Like, why does one four year old notice that, you know, their belly is rounder than the others, but another four year old is just sort of half?

00;28;08;00 – 00;28;28;16

Zoe Bisbing

Doesn’t even seem to notice that their belly is rounded rounder than the others. You know, like I want to anchor this in, you know, a recognition that it’s possible that if your kid is one of these sensitive kids, it’s that their temperament or the way that they are, their personality is sort of structured, is making them more vulnerable.

00;28;28;16 – 00;29;04;23

Zoe Bisbing

Right. They might even just have sensory differences. That makes them more aware of the of their body, the way the body feels than another kid who just might be more oblivious to those things. Right. So I want to make it very clear that there is this sort of nature nurture reality here. Right? And yeah, if you are, in a family culture where there is a lot of diet talk or there’s a lot of body talk, if there’s a lot of conversations about the way people look or grandma, you know, lost too much weight, she looks great or this sort of talk, it’s very normalized.

00;29;04;24 – 00;29;29;11

Zoe Bisbing

You know, in our culture, that is a risk factor for increased body preoccupation, increased risk of body image issues and increased risk of disordered eating and eating disorders. It is it’s one of the ways that, unfortunately, family is. And, you know, parents can have a negative impact, but I, I, I did the caveat because it’s also possible that you’ve done everything right.

00;29;29;11 – 00;29;52;24

Zoe Bisbing

Right. That you didn’t have anybody talk that you really tried to, you know, make sure everyone was, you know, listening to their bodies and their internal cues and eating in a peaceful, food neutral way and still your kid is fixated on the shape of their cheeks. Like, that can happen, you know? But if we are, you know, a little, we got our own baggage with food and body stuff.

00;29;53;00 – 00;29;55;08

Zoe Bisbing

It’s a risk factor for our kids.

00;29;55;10 – 00;30;17;08

Dr. Mona

I am curious in your work, because what I’ve seen in my in my office. So I see two things happening. And I’m speaking this I’m speaking about this also because I am physically a very thin woman. I’m married to a very thin, tall man, and he struggled with really bad body image issues related to being thin. And I saw this article with a term you know you love.

00;30;17;10 – 00;30;19;05

Dr. Mona

I love my terms called bigger Xia.

00;30;19;06 – 00;30;19;24

Zoe Bisbing

Which.

00;30;19;27 – 00;30;38;13

Dr. Mona

I’m sure you I would love to chat about this. So this is something if you want to chat about that, explain that to our listener but I will. I will preface it by saying where I see a good amount of boys come into my office, and also girls who are in thinner body, so society may say, oh, but thinness is also more preferred.

00;30;38;13 – 00;31;05;18

Dr. Mona

But they struggle with being so thin, meaning they don’t like their body because they’re thin. They want to have more breasts. They want to have more curves, or the boys want to have muscles. And so do you see that in your practice that it goes both ways, whatever body type that you’re in and just sort of addressing this bigger Xia term that I’ve heard, I’ve seen articles about it, and sort of how we can approach those conversations on again, is it the same way as we approach other body types to.

00;31;05;21 – 00;31;11;15

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

00;31;11;18 – 00;31;40;22

Zoe Bisbing

Oh, yeah. So, a few things where I see the, the not preoccupation, but the body and the body image issues around feeling too thin. Where I hear that most is actually when I go to schools and speak, I’m I high school students will often politely call me out on my presentations because I do a lot of like talking about body positivity.

00;31;40;22 – 00;32;01;10

Zoe Bisbing

And I skew towards and there’s a reason for this that I talk about weight stigma, systemic weight stigma, anti fat bias. I am way, bias on that side of like helping people. Right. And there’s a lot of, I get called out or in or whatever the kids are saying, you know, for like, what about they’ll oh, it’s always somebody.

00;32;01;10 – 00;32;21;03

Zoe Bisbing

What about, this other side of it for being too thin, you know, or, you know, feeling like I can never gain weight or all of the things you’re saying, so I don’t I don’t see that as much in my clinical practice, which is interesting. You know, I, I have theories maybe, that are coming to me in this moment.

00;32;21;06 – 00;32;43;01

Zoe Bisbing

But it’s real. It’s real because body image disturbances. I mean, I think this is a good way of thinking about that body image. Like that body image means you think too much about your body, right? You have too many thoughts. It’s over. Overwhelming brain space, thoughts about your body, about what you want to change, what you don’t like.

00;32;43;04 – 00;32;51;08

Zoe Bisbing

And you are disconnected. You’re disembodied. Right? You’re a term lady. So I mean.

00;32;51;10 – 00;32;52;28

Dr. Mona

Right, I am a term lady. I don’t.

00;32;52;28 – 00;32;53;28

Zoe Bisbing

Need me to, I.

00;32;53;28 – 00;33;02;22

Dr. Mona

Just helps it helps my brain, like, you know, be like, okay. And also, I think it’s nice to have correct information, you know, so just so I know when I speak about these things, I love it.

00;33;02;27 – 00;33;24;24

Zoe Bisbing

Yeah. Agreed. I’m on your page. Embodiment, like positive embodiment, is really like, would be great if we could all just be deeply embodied. And I’m sure in your experience, both of us parent a pediatrician, most little kids are the epitome of embodied. Yeah, they just are. They’re embodied. They just running around. They’re not thinking about what they look like.

00;33;24;24 – 00;33;26;24

Zoe Bisbing

They’re just in their bodies. Right. And that’s.

00;33;26;25 – 00;33;27;12

Dr. Mona

All beautiful.

00;33;27;19 – 00;33;46;04

Zoe Bisbing

That’s the goal, right? To be able to be in my body. And so if I’m living in my body, I’m not thinking that much about the way it looks. I’m just living in it. It’s my home, right? I’m in it. I’m not thinking about what it looks like, what the how it’s painted or what’s hanging up on the walls and in it.

00;33;46;04 – 00;34;10;06

Zoe Bisbing

Right. Which is just really hard to do, by the way, as you’re growing up, it’s just I don’t expect kids to be not thinking about appearances or not thinking about what what’s going to keep them in good favor with social peers like this is it’s rocky, you know? But it’s very common to be at any gender and having negative body image for reasons that are not about being too big.

00;34;10;06 – 00;34;40;19

Zoe Bisbing

The difference is, and it’s what I’m about to say is of no comfort to that kid who’s to your husband when he was in the thick of it. Like, this is no comfort to him. But what’s true is that we don’t have systemic oppression. Yes, thin people, thin people might experience some systemic stigma and that it’s harder to find clothes that will fit around their waist, maybe like they need to go to the tailor to have skin in this.

00;34;40;20 – 00;35;05;02

Zoe Bisbing

It’s not like it’s a non-issue, but they don’t have to buy two plane tickets. They don’t not fit in MRI machines. They’re not getting substandard medical care from yeah, unchecked weight bias. And so it’s tricky. It’s sort of like with racism. It’s not that, you know, a white person can’t experience, you know, racism, but they’re not experiencing systemic racism.

00;35;05;02 – 00;35;21;03

Zoe Bisbing

They’re just not that’s not the culture that we live in. And so again, not of use to the to the individual who’s suffering. Right. But it is the difference. Right. And I think that that needs to be named and something like yeah, go ahead. I was going to chime in about bigger Xia.

00;35;21;04 – 00;35;26;20

Dr. Mona

But no, I love it. Tell me about because tell me about the term and what you would want to say. But I’m loving this already is what I was going to say.

00;35;26;23 – 00;35;52;04

Zoe Bisbing

Yeah I think bigger xia is is you know there’s a couple of like quote eating disorders that are not like in the DSM, right. Like orthorexia is another one that is really, really important to know about, especially during these Maha years. Yeah. But bigger xia is exactly what it sounds like. It’s sort of this, preoccupation with wanting to be bigger, having bigger muscles.

00;35;52;07 – 00;36;27;03

Zoe Bisbing

And in the way that someone might fixate on weight loss or trying to be thinner, smaller or svelte, there’s a preoccupation with wanting to be bigger and stronger and more in line with the sort of male ideal of what a strong man is supposed to look like. And if that is not the genetic, reality, the genetic body blueprint for any given individual, all that will result is negative body image and mental other mental health problems because you can’t, like, be something you’re not.

00;36;27;05 – 00;36;29;06

Zoe Bisbing

Not without major consequences. Right.

00;36;29;09 – 00;36;47;22

Dr. Mona

And I because I am loving everything you’re saying and I’m like you, you said it and I wanted to now elaborate on it. You said you wonder why many of these people may not be in your office because they come to me right. And, you know, I love that. You also mentioned about the societal stigma because I, I noticed that as well.

00;36;47;25 – 00;37;08;05

Dr. Mona

I, however, socially am around a lot of thin Indian people. And I’m going to give this perspective and here’s what I’ve seen. And this is why I’m curious maybe as to why you’re not seeing it in your office, but what I see. So a lot of my peers were very thin and because of genetics. Right. And you just talked about how genetically, that’s just who we are.

00;37;08;07 – 00;37;23;08

Dr. Mona

But what happened is this pressure from parents at the dinner table to eat all the food because you need to gain weight, and we’ll get into nutrition and how it how it goes. In the flip side, a person in a larger body could get you need to not eat. And we’ll talk about all this food stuff because I’m very curious about your thoughts.

00;37;23;08 – 00;37;47;21

Dr. Mona

But what ended up happening for myself, my husband, peers of ours is that we would binge the high calorie, low nutritious foods, cookies, carbs, and it wasn’t healthy. And then a lot of us ended up with high cholesterol, high issues with other things because of the poor nutrition education that didn’t come with all of this. Right? It’s one thing that a parent would teach, hey, you’re a thin body.

00;37;47;21 – 00;38;07;05

Dr. Mona

It’s okay to feel the way you do, but then give me my variety of food. But what happened was this parental obsession with finishing the plate, and it’s because you don’t eat that. You’re so skinny. And I ended up with high cholesterol in my 20s. Not because of familial, but because I was eating crap like, I’m going to see me, quite frankly, because everyone would tease me about how skinny I was.

00;38;07;05 – 00;38;24;27

Dr. Mona

And so I’m like, well, I’m just going to keep eating and that’s not healthy. And so I have a different perception because I see so many Asian, Indian families who are thin, and I see it in the parenting at the dinner table, the obsession with finish your plate club, because they’re like, my kid’s only on the fifth percentile.

00;38;24;27 – 00;38;42;27

Dr. Mona

And that’s where I really wanted you here, because I’ve spoken so much about how percentiles are a guide, and so many parents get so caught up in it, and it’s a lot of doctors as well. They get really caught up in like, well, your kid’s on the 90th or your kid’s on the third, but are they thriving? Are you teaching them about healthy nutrition?

00;38;43;00 – 00;39;09;15

Dr. Mona

And my own daughter is the second percentile and if I if she was in my parents household, she would be forced to finish her meals. And that also doesn’t create a healthy relationship with her. So I wonder if you’re not getting it because, you know, my perception is that maybe because physically, like you said, they’re not being oppressed systemically, which is valid, but medically I’m seeing it because down the line they’re making lifestyle choices that are not the best for them.

00;39;09;15 – 00;39;39;27

Dr. Mona

Right. And my husband and I, we talk about how a lot of Indian individuals, not only because of the diet, but because they had this mentality, end up getting high, visceral fat. Which is how Indian people deposit fat and end up with heart disease and metabolic disease. And so it’s been like an interesting world of like respecting the social structures that exist for people in larger bodies, but also bringing voice to this, like major health issue that I’m seeing in the in our bodies that are not getting healthy nutrition education, which is important for all.

00;39;39;27 – 00;39;41;06

Dr. Mona

I think you can agree on that, right?

00;39;41;11 – 00;40;00;24

Zoe Bisbing

Yeah, I do I mean, I, I agree, that I do I think that so long as it’s developmentally appropriate. But I noticed that you had Diana and Danny. Yes. Recently, you know, and that you read the foreword to their book, that it’s it’s really interesting. I mean, I’m just I’m learning a lot from listening to you.

00;40;00;24 – 00;40;29;25

Zoe Bisbing

I mean, I think that I have seen in the course of my 15 plus years as a therapist, I’m sure I’ve seen. I’ve encountered people that have had that profile. But I think part of the issue is they don’t end up in the eating disorder treatment center, right, necessarily. I mean, I think that not not that I, I mean, I currently work in a private practice, but, you know, I’m fascinated by what you’re saying.

00;40;29;25 – 00;41;03;22

Zoe Bisbing

And, and also on the growth chart front, I, I know we are aligned and we, I just wish people understood that if your kid is thriving and it’s just plodding along that fifth percentile or that 99th percentile, leave that child be. Let them listen to their internal wisdom. You do your job by serving the wide variety of nutritious foods and delicious foods, and allow them to understand that their bodies are the expert and the the parental pressure to finish your meal.

00;41;03;22 – 00;41;38;06

Zoe Bisbing

I mean, it’s it’s tricky. And gosh, we could go in so many different directions because I know if there are kids with anorexia or are fed or are genuinely failing to thrive in some way, there’s a lot of really, and I, I, I live this in my practice with families that are, you know, involved in their kids care with anorexia outfit where we have to really negotiate the importance of bodily autonomy with the, with the, with the reality that if that parent is not more in charge of feeding that child, we’re maybe heading to a feeding tube in the hospital.

00;41;38;06 – 00;42;08;12

Zoe Bisbing

Yeah, but those are extenuating circumstances, you know, and I’m just naming them because those people might be listening to. But it’s, it’s complicated and I think it’s very important to understand going back to body positivity, bodies are diverse. Yeah. I think, you know, there’s a great if you don’t know it. There’s a great YouTube video called Brutal Science by Deborah Bergen, and it’s like, it’s just this reminder that we’re all different breeds of dogs.

00;42;08;14 – 00;42;48;22

Zoe Bisbing

And nobody, even if the poodle is the, like, the one we all want to be. If you’re a corgi, you can’t be a poodle. It’s just not going to happen. Like, yeah, and actually you’re going to die trying, you know, no for it or have negative consequences. So we can maybe it’s the segway into food and how that fits into body image, but it’s what you’re sharing is very interesting to me about the especially the health consequences, because I think that in the conversation about, you know, anti fat bias, it’s we can’t neglect what you were talking about to the sort of negative health consequences that then people are experiencing too.

00;42;48;27 – 00;43;08;07

Dr. Mona

Yeah. And I it it I’m very grateful that I’m in my children’s life and I am I get teary eyed whenever I talk about the kids. So excuse me if I start getting more to right because I know what you know, and I know that my kids are going to be small children. What I mean by small is that they’re very lean, but they’re so fast, they’re so strong, they’re able to move their body.

00;43;08;07 – 00;43;33;07

Dr. Mona

And what an honor to be able to do that. Will they always love their body? You’re reminding me that, no, they’re not always going to love it like I myself sometimes don’t like when I’m pre pre PMS ING in my body explodes during the, you know, before you get your period. It’s life right. And I love that to me has already stuck with me so deeply because that is what I’m going to carry on for my children, that when they get older and right now, they are both in that carefree you and my body’s amazing.

00;43;33;07 – 00;43;53;01

Dr. Mona

Let me just run around. But eventually those those conceptions are going to are going to come into their brain. They’re going to see their peers, they’re going to ask those questions. And I really appreciate that. And so I, I love it. I think it’s so important that we, that we understand where this all comes from. And I would love to segue into this sort of food connection.

00;43;53;01 – 00;44;11;29

Dr. Mona

Now. Yes, I did write the foreword to the book Food Positivity How to Ditch Diet Culture and Talk to Kids About Food. I, I love their book so much and I’ve talked about it, but I would love to hear from you. And maybe explaining to the listener how food is so deeply connected to body image, or the or better terminology that you would love to describe to the listener.

00;44;12;04 – 00;44;40;14

Zoe Bisbing

Yes, I, I know this. I’m happy to also just keep endorsing that book because I do think that it helps. It provides a roadmap for a like, I think a really safe way to approach feeding with kids. And it’s. Eating our relationship to food, right, is deeply related to our relationship to our body, and it’s sort of multifold, right?

00;44;40;16 – 00;45;09;06

Zoe Bisbing

The way we we’re talking about embodiment. Right. And my kids are also some are aging out, but for the most part, I see them as embodied beings. Right. And it’s it’s it also brings tears to my eyes because it’s like, don’t ever lose that. Don’t ever lose that. Like, keep running around naked. Don’t ever, you know, we want to be listening to our insides as much as we can.

00;45;09;08 – 00;45;14;22

Zoe Bisbing

We want. And by the way, not all kids have the same internal receptive capacity.

00;45;14;22 – 00;45;16;14

Dr. Mona

I love the nuances, my friend.

00;45;16;17 – 00;45;17;25

Zoe Bisbing

Yeah, nerd out on that.

00;45;18;00 – 00;45;18;14

Dr. Mona

Yes.

00;45;18;14 – 00;45;51;25

Zoe Bisbing

Another episode. Yeah. So I, I there’s something inherently ablest when we center a more neurotypical experience of introspection, but the ability to feel what it feels like to be you, to be hungry, to be thirsty, to have to pee, to be full, that ability, that internal wisdom and my ability to trust, not just know that my body is mine, but that I trust it’s Intel.

00;45;51;27 – 00;46;12;16

Zoe Bisbing

If you don’t have that, you can’t have decent body image. Yeah, because you are. You’re not primed to to be, I don’t want to say internally preoccupied in like a negative way but in zoomed into yourself. Right. How what. Because and by the way that’s where what do I feel, what do I think? What do I need? What are my values?

00;46;12;22 – 00;46;36;28

Zoe Bisbing

Where are my boundaries? All of it comes from that. And so it’s it’s not even just about body image. It’s about like well-being and like safety. Right. But I think with respect to body image I defined earlier, bad body image is when you’re thinking too much about what it looks like. If I’m thinking too much about cleaning my plate to please my grown up, yeah, I am not listening to my body.

00;46;36;28 – 00;47;03;07

Zoe Bisbing

I am overriding my internal cues and I am becoming disembodied and disembodied. It is in conflict with healthy body image. It’s like you’re just you’re disconnected as opposed to rooted. So it’s really important. And I think there’s an additional layer which has to do with morality as it gets talked about in food thinking, you know, diet culture is the queen of that.

00;47;03;07 – 00;47;25;12

Zoe Bisbing

Like, if if I’m thinking in my head too much about what’s good with that, you know, and again, how you get to the nuanced conversation about like, nutrition and balance and all of those things. There’s plenty of space for that. But we don’t want kids before they’re ready to be thinking too much about those things. We want them to just be listening to their bodies.

00;47;25;14 – 00;47;59;13

Zoe Bisbing

Right. And we want trusted adults to be giving them access to great choices, you know, that are accessible for the family and accessible to the child. Not all kids are wired the same way. Not all kids can eat the rainbow like, you know, remembering those things. Which is why that book is so great. But it’s really connected our our ability to listen to our bodies in relation to food is directly connected to our ability to listen to our bodies, and how that plays out with respect to our relationship to our bodies.

00;47;59;16 – 00;48;19;02

Dr. Mona

Thank you so much. I love talking about that. And I love hearing from different people in this space like how they would define it. And that was just so, so beautiful to hear. And like I said, with the story that I mentioned and I’d have families come in already, we know that the pressuring the the bribery and food positivity, the book goes into that, by the way.

00;48;19;04 – 00;48;36;16

Dr. Mona

If you’re curious about that book, but all of that. Right. Like, it’s not good for anybody type at all. Like, I mean, we know that whether you’re in a third percentile, 90th or 40th, I don’t care. We don’t want to pressure, we don’t want to clean your plate club. We don’t want to stress them out with the feeding experience where they can’t do what you just said beautifully is listen to themselves.

00;48;36;18 – 00;48;57;08

Dr. Mona

And I also love that you talked about the nuance of our food and, you know, sensory issues, because that’s a whole different conversation and that there is a reality that some kids do not have the ability to understand that they’re hungry, and could quite literally not eat, but I’m happy we said that, because when I have those patients in my office and I know that that’s why they’re doing it right.

00;48;57;08 – 00;49;16;28

Dr. Mona

Like I see them obsessed about the curve and I’m seeing them look at the curve. Like literally I’m talking they won’t take their eyes off of it. And I’m like, I actually don’t show parents the curve. They and my patients know that. I tell them that your child’s trending well. I tell them that everything looks good, and if they want to know or want to see, I’m not going to hide it from them.

00;49;17;04 – 00;49;24;23

Dr. Mona

But I have had fathers and mothers not listen and just stare. Why are they? Why are they not at the 90th?

00;49;24;26 – 00;49;25;08

Zoe Bisbing

Why?

00;49;25;15 – 00;49;46;16

Dr. Mona

Why are they? Why do they drop here? And it’s so heartbreaking. And then I’ve had situations again when I’m saying like when it’s the it’s the, it’s the using the food or the experience at a meal as a, like as a bargaining tool because of the weight. Right. It’s the restricting of the food because you perceive your child to be heavier.

00;49;46;22 – 00;50;03;20

Dr. Mona

It’s the forcing because you feel your child is smaller. How sad that we’re not doing the same thing for all children. Like we should just be balanced in our approach as we’re not going to force. We’re not going to restrict for all children of all bodies. And it’s that’s what that’s what’s so heartbreaking to me when I’m in my role as a pediatrician.

00;50;03;20 – 00;50;27;14

Dr. Mona

And I’m like, we are. We should be teaching kids to have a healthy relationship with food like you mentioned, like regardless of what their weight percentile is. And it’s hard to see that happen in real life. And so I’m glad that you brought it up. I’m glad that we took the time to talk about it, because it’s a real connection I see with the body image, with that resilience that we talk about, when they just stop trusting themselves.

00;50;27;17 – 00;50;33;12

Dr. Mona

Now let’s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who support helps us keep bringing you this show.

00;50;33;15 – 00;50;56;26

Zoe Bisbing

Oh that’s right. And that’s why it’s it’s so beyond body image. It’s like it’s it’s self in self knowing. And I, I can’t even tell you how many clients, not even just people that have had body image disturbances, but people that come into therapy and 30s, 40s and they don’t even know who they are. Yeah, they don’t know what they want.

00;50;56;26 – 00;51;30;24

Zoe Bisbing

They’re in one bad relationship after the next. Like they, they, they can’t hear themselves, you know, and hey, it’s not like we can trace it directly back to the clean your plate club, you know. But sometimes we can we can trace it back to ways in which. And this is full circle, the ways in which their feelings were not acknowledged or only positive feelings were allowed, or like who they really were, was never like there was no intrigue about who this person was, who this child was.

00;51;30;27 – 00;51;51;07

Zoe Bisbing

There was a lot of compliance, a lot of performing, a lot of, you know, being obedient and this is just not this is not how to nurture a person, right? Human being, you know, and yeah, we are talking about it specifically as it pertains to food and body, but it’s it’s a it’s like the whole person we’re really talking about.

00;51;51;09 – 00;52;12;02

Dr. Mona

I, I have learned so much along the way, you know, as you know, medical training, you said it beautifully is extremely biased, towards, towards larger bodies. And I felt that when I’m in my training, I also just culturally have learned to say certain phrases like, you, you brought it up like when someone loses weight. Oh my gosh, you lost so much weight.

00;52;12;02 – 00;52;28;11

Dr. Mona

You look great. And then in my head. And now I know why that might not be great. In my head I’m like, that’s a compliment. But also, as we know, that can feel like, well, what about how I looked when I wasn’t this right? Like, what about when I end up gaining the weight back and I still beautiful to you?

00;52;28;11 – 00;52;50;18

Dr. Mona

And that’s very hard. Are there other phrases that parents may say or that example that I just gave that you feel like? You know what, I just wish people would understand what this is doing psychologically, when people you think that they’re being well-meaning, but it’s actually not. I know I’m putting you on the spot here, but that would be one example that I think I learned from when I said it to one of my best friends, and she flat out was like, she made a face, and she’s like, okay.

00;52;50;18 – 00;53;05;25

Dr. Mona

And I was like, what? Because I’m very in tune to facial expression. She’s like, that’s kind of a rude comment. And I’m like, oh yeah, that is when I was like, oh shit. Like, I didn’t realize that. So are there any examples that you would give to parents who are like, like the well-meaning. But it’s actually not.

00;53;05;27 – 00;53;27;02

Zoe Bisbing

So I mean, this is a very good one. And, you know, it extends to like commenting on our kids appearance. There’s like, I’m a realist. Like, I can’t I tell my kids how adorable they are. Of course. Thank you for saying it. Let’s just be real. Like there. And I don’t think that it’s it’s the balance, right? I think kids,

00;53;27;05 – 00;53;27;27

Zoe Bisbing

It’s okay.

00;53;27;29 – 00;53;30;14

Dr. Mona

I have a parenting lens 1,000%.

00;53;30;14 – 00;53;31;24

Zoe Bisbing

You know, I’m proud.

00;53;31;24 – 00;53;35;15

Dr. Mona

You’re beautiful is that’s what they’re hearing. Only that’s a problem. But that’s not.

00;53;35;15 – 00;53;55;17

Zoe Bisbing

Exactly. Yeah, it’s not exactly so. And I do actually think that we need to be thoughtful about who the child is and like, what their lived experiences like, if that’s all they’re hearing, especially if you have like a child by, you know, typical standards actually is very attractive based on, you know, wherever they go, they get this feedback.

00;53;55;20 – 00;54;16;19

Zoe Bisbing

This is a child that might need to hear a lot of reflection back to them about their intrinsic quality. Yeah, I think all kids need to hear reflection back to them about what we value about them as human beings. So yeah, you can drop that. You look so cute. You’re so beautiful. But it’s very reflexive to only do that.

00;54;16;21 – 00;54;38;03

Zoe Bisbing

And I think, you know, there’s there is like pretty, I think pretty good research that shows that that kind of even positive compliments increases body preoccupation or not body. It increases body consciousness. Yes. And that’s the opposite of embodiment, right? The more I’m thinking about what I look like. Oh, I please people by the way I look.

00;54;38;05 – 00;54;53;08

Zoe Bisbing

This is risky. You think it’s just net positive, but it’s it’s net risk, you know. So we do want to kind of focus more on the intrinsic qualities. I think the one thing I would say, and this is going to sound weird to a lot of I’m sure to a lot of your listeners, I love it.

00;54;53;09 – 00;54;53;24

Dr. Mona

I love where.

00;54;53;27 – 00;55;27;02

Zoe Bisbing

You’re like, we’re allowed to be weird. Using terms like overweight and obese can be tricky because, you know, some the thing about language like descriptions of body sizes, for example, like it’s I think there’s also research that looks at this and like it has to be sort of person determined. Right. So like if I say I identify I like the word fat to describe my body.

00;55;27;02 – 00;55;56;24

Zoe Bisbing

There’s a way in which fat can just be a neutral descriptor. We’re not going to like go around telling people what, right. But we have to make space for the fact that some people and you can listen and learn from fat activists, they will tell you that the words overweight and obese have like they are inherently stigmatizing. And sometimes we use these terms like, oh, you know, well, I was overweight or you know, she’s overweight and we’re we’re not necessarily taking a pause to be like well over but weight like heavy, right.

00;55;56;26 – 00;56;16;25

Zoe Bisbing

Not larger. And that’s kind of these little things that most people would never think of because they think of obesity as a clinical term. Overweight is just like a bigger person. But as you know, and we’re talking about it like a kid that grows into an adult, it’s just always larger. It’s not necessarily overweight, they’re just bigger. Right.

00;56;16;25 – 00;56;20;16

Zoe Bisbing

Like the bulldog is not an overweight poodle. It’s just a bulldog.

00;56;20;20 – 00;56;22;13

Dr. Mona

Is on a different curve because they’re.

00;56;22;13 – 00;56;47;07

Zoe Bisbing

Bulldogs. Right? Exactly. Right. So I do think it’s like it’s more just critical thinking. You might be like throwing those terms around as though they’re neutral, but like they actually, I think contribute to the notion of this body hierarchy and that there is a right way to be. And I do think that the a susceptible, vulnerable kid is hearing that and is thinking, well, I don’t want to be overweight.

00;56;47;07 – 00;57;00;25

Zoe Bisbing

And there’s a fine line between wanting to live a healthy lifestyle and what I’d fearing being fat. And I do think that that’s something that, you know, it’s just another one of those things to keep in mind.

00;57;00;27 – 00;57;20;00

Dr. Mona

I appreciate that. I have had I’ve inherited patients in my practice that have seen other doctors that put the ICD ten codes for overweight and obese, and I’m the one who removes all of it now from the training purposes. I’m getting in trouble because when you add those things, insurance companies will pay you more because it’s a medical condition, which that’s the problem.

00;57;20;00 – 00;57;49;01

Dr. Mona

Right? Like it’s you said it beautifully. I have a huge problem putting overweight underweight also by the way because we talked about that earlier. Right. When it’s when there’s nothing there. Now I will be fair. And we I love that we chatted. We could talk hours on this and I don’t think we will. We could do another episode that yes, there are situations where I have children coming into my office where I’m worried about obesity, right, where there’s a diet issue, meaning the foods that we’re eating, the the sugary drinks, the lack of exercise, the family history, then we’re having health conversations.

00;57;49;01 – 00;58;08;17

Dr. Mona

Not like you need to lose 30 pounds because it’s important. It’s what are we doing as a ecosystem for your body right now? Right. And yes, sometimes I will code that because I need to follow up with them every three months. You know, I need to see how they’re doing. Did they talk to their nutritionist? But I think the medical system has a problem, has fuel that problem.

00;58;08;19 – 00;58;29;24

Dr. Mona

I think the fact that we way kids immediately and we have them see themselves on the scale, for many kids, it can feel very hard. I always tell my families when they listen, like, if you don’t want your kid to be weighed, you can just slip a note to the mom or the nurse and just say, hey, I would like to forgo this and just give them the weight so that if they need to give medication, they know weight based dosing.

00;58;29;27 – 00;58;51;07

Dr. Mona

But all of these things matter because it filters into our conscious and subconscious. And you’re like, I feel this. My doctor just told my mom that I’m fat and I’ve had that. I’ve seen mentors of mine will not mentors because I wouldn’t want to be mentored. But people that I’ve shadowed and it hurts like I’d be like, why are we talking like that?

00;58;51;07 – 00;59;06;27

Dr. Mona

Like I don’t want anyone to tell me. And I think it also goes back to when I was a child. I was very underweight and I had a doctor who never cared. Right. He was like, hey, are you you’re a track athlete. You eating good? Awesome. He’s like, when I was eating my like sleeves of Oreos, he’s like, you need to cut that out.

00;59;06;27 – 00;59;25;00

Dr. Mona

Like, you can’t be eating like a whole package of Oreos every day. And he’s like, you know, let’s balance it. Don’t eliminate it. But it was a healthy conversation we had about just being healthy with my body and like, celebrating how it moved. But you are right. You’re hitting the nail on the head again about how this labeling is becoming such a problem.

00;59;25;01 – 00;59;42;15

Dr. Mona

And I think it’s a big issue. And I’m happy that you can now make sure that parents understand that it shouldn’t be there. And you can ask if your doctor can remove it from the chart, because I would hate that a teenager gets the discharge paperwork, sees that, and then just fix in their mind that I’m this overweight or obese child and that this is what defines me.

00;59;42;22 – 01;00;13;07

Zoe Bisbing

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the the number of people I have encountered in adulthood as clients and also on social media who talk about the it’s the weight stigma they experience at the doctor’s office in childhood. It it directly informs how difficult it then becomes to care for their bodies, right? Yeah. Because they experience this early stigma and shame.

01;00;13;07 – 01;00;46;02

Zoe Bisbing

My body is bad and these are very nuanced conversations. And look, sometimes it’s just I think centering health, separating health from weight is really important because even if you have to, you know, diagnose obesity in a child, like there are ways to support children of all sizes in improving their health, which, by the way, requires so much more focus on the parents than the kid.

01;00;46;03 – 01;01;17;09

Zoe Bisbing

Right. And it’s really not about weight loss. Usually. It’s about whatever health issue exists. And if obesity is the only health issue, it’s like, what are we treating actually? You know, but it gets very complicated. And I’ve worked on several cases where, with phrenology, you know, it’s like it gets it gets complicated. But for the average bear, I think just thinking in terms of health and weight, they’re not necessarily one in the same.

01;01;17;09 – 01;01;30;05

Zoe Bisbing

And that you can be in a bigger body and have health issues. You can be in a smaller body and have health issues. You can be in a bigger body and be in great health. You can be a smaller body being great, healthy. And that health is such a tricky word.

01;01;30;07 – 01;01;45;25

Dr. Mona

You know, we have like seven topics that we can do for future episodes, like the one you already mentioned, like you, you alluded to GLP ones. I would love to tell you at some point about GLP ones, because it’s obviously from a medical perspective, it can be very helpful, but it’s not being used like that for many people.

01;01;45;25 – 01;02;06;12

Dr. Mona

But we’ll talk about that later. But the other thing I wanted to ask, which could be its own episode and I respect that, is the I love that you’re balancing the fact that parents have a responsibility on how we’re showing up for our kids, but you also have mentioned that some children, just by nature, are going to have more of these tendencies to look at what someone else looks like or be very, you know, why is it like this?

01;02;06;12 – 01;02;32;07

Dr. Mona

So I respect that you’re talking that it’s not it’s not just, nurturing, it’s also nature. But one of the things I want to kind of end with, with a question for you, is for that parent who struggles with their own body image, their own body resilience. You know, whether it was from self-criticism or whatever it is, what would be just one meaningful shift they can do to break that generation pattern and create a different tone in their home.

01;02;32;07 – 01;02;36;06

Dr. Mona

I know this can be its own episode, so I respect that, but what would you say to that parent?

01;02;36;08 – 01;03;04;24

Zoe Bisbing

I think the lowest hanging fruit is like, don’t talk negatively about your body. Like, you know, I want to give a better answer than that. But I think if a lot of people that have a lot of body, are fraught body experience, right, they tend to not even be aware of how much body negativity is coming out of them.

01;03;04;24 – 01;03;26;23

Zoe Bisbing

Like a lot of the time with my own clients, like, step one is to just start to identify how many times a day do you hate on your body internally, and how often does it come out to a partner or to your parent, like so? You know, for a parent that is listening and is like, yeah, that would be a really hard, but I could do that.

01;03;26;26 – 01;04;06;02

Zoe Bisbing

You know, again, that speaks to a parent who can acknowledge that they are they are talking negatively about their body or they are, they are not modeling body piece. And I think that sometimes this requires some uptick, like, and and I guess my real answer is get help for yourself. Like I think a lot of adults that follow my work on social both on Instagram, but my Substack as well, some of them don’t even have kids, but they’re there for the inner child healing, and they’re there for the body image hacks.

01;04;06;05 – 01;04;34;04

Zoe Bisbing

And they’re there. Because the thing about all this sort of prevention work that I do, it’s like deeply healing for adults, too. It’s like you kind of can’t do differently for your kid without having your own inner child benefit. So whether that’s following my social media account or that’s like booking that appointment with the therapist, like if you are not at peace with your body and your relationship with food, one of the best things you can do for your kid is get help for yourself.

01;04;34;06 – 01;04;57;00

Zoe Bisbing

And so, you know, especially if you’re one of those people that’s like, well, I’m suffering in silence. I’m not saying anything about my body, but I think kids feel it. And so finding space, finding, you know, online communities or even better, a body image therapist, somebody who can help you work on that, I think is probably the best thing.

01;04;57;02 – 01;05;12;20

Dr. Mona

I love that answer. I know you’re like, I don’t know what I want to say, but girl, you just did that. Like, thank you. And you and I love that you introduced one more terminology on me. Like, as we’re ending this conversation body piece, I’m like, I, I love it, but this was just such an incredible conversation, I know.

01;05;12;20 – 01;05;26;24

Dr. Mona

No surprise, that it was going to be like this just from watching the videos. And now I have to remind myself to get on your Substack, because that’s the one area that I’m not on, and I will be adding all of that to our show notes as well. But tell people where they can stay connected with you.

01;05;26;29 – 01;05;48;14

Zoe Bisbing

Yeah, I mean, those those are the two places I’d say Instagram. My, handle is at my body positive home. I’m pretty active there. And then, my Substack, which we’ll link, I’ll share the link or you’ll share the link. I offer like there’s a kind of library of workshops that I’ve been running through the ten core beliefs of a body positive home.

01;05;48;14 – 01;06;16;10

Zoe Bisbing

It’s like how to really scaffold your home environment to, you know, be able to, like, execute all this stuff we’re talking about. And different, you know. Right. My writing there is, is, is there as well. I think those are the two places to kind of find out at my support group offer. I run a twice monthly support group for parents that are like in the weeds with all of this and wanting to connect with other, of course, it’s all moms.

01;06;16;13 – 01;06;18;04

Zoe Bisbing

Really nice to have some dads, but,

01;06;18;07 – 01;06;35;05

Dr. Mona

I tell my husband he’s very he’s very intercept of. And I love that. Like, he understands where he needs to. And that’s why I loved. Your final answer is that he also is seeing, like, not a therapist that specializes, but he’s starting to see more. And it’s helping him a lot to undo a lot of the inner child work that you mentioned as well as myself.

01;06;35;13 – 01;06;49;07

Dr. Mona

We did a lot of that and it really helped. And I’m a big advocate of therapy as a parent. Like it has changed our marriage ourself, our parenting approach. Just because you have more clarity and you understand what your values are and you don’t have the baggage coming with you, you know.

01;06;49;10 – 01;06;53;06

Zoe Bisbing

Because you can actually hear your hear yourself. Yeah, buddy.

01;06;53;09 – 01;07;17;22

Dr. Mona

And that’s exactly it. You know, when I, when I started this conversation, I mentioned that healthy relationship with self. It’s that it’s exactly that identity piece. Right. Like we think of identity like it’s such a microscopic like it has to be one thing, but it’s it’s so compounded. Right. It’s our body. It’s our the I talk about neurodiversity, you know, like how our brains think like we tend to shame the we we shame anything that’s not typical, right?

01;07;17;22 – 01;07;41;17

Dr. Mona

We think about how neurodiverse children get ostracized in school systems, how larger bodies get ostracized in when they go shopping, or, you know, airplane seats like you mentioned, like just I the what I took home from this conversation from you is this embodiment of love for all. And like, it’s so healing to hear that. And I’m just so grateful for you today to like, share that sort of love others and respect others so that you can respect yourself.

01;07;41;17 – 01;07;42;21

Dr. Mona

So thank you.

01;07;42;23 – 01;07;50;11

Zoe Bisbing

Yeah. Oh, what a great way to sum it up now. And thank you. This was like such a rich conversation. And yeah. To be continued.

01;07;50;12 – 01;07;55;09

Dr. Mona

Yes. To be continued. I love it.

01;07;55;12 – 01;08;12;26

Dr. Mona

I loved this conversation was. Oh, and this is why I love this show so much, right. Because I get to educate all of you, and then I get to learn new reframes like body image resilience. I love that, you know, and also just this reclaiming of this term body positivity. I also thought that it meant that you always have to love your body.

01;08;12;26 – 01;08;33;04

Dr. Mona

And I frankly, sometimes didn’t. And I think that’s so crucial to understand because I love my body, I really do. I appreciate everything that done for me, including growing and carrying my two children. But part of loving my body is being okay with the fact that I don’t always love how it looks, especially postpartum. Recently, I was really struggling with how my breasts looked after having kids.

01;08;33;07 – 01;08;53;07

Dr. Mona

My body has changed. I wasn’t happy with that particular change, and I talked about it with my husband and my best friend. And you know what was so healing about those conversations? They didn’t dismiss how I was feeling. They didn’t immediately jump in with, but your body gave you two beautiful children. You should be grateful or yeah, just like do an augmentation, whatever.

01;08;53;09 – 01;09;15;11

Dr. Mona

Because I am grateful. I don’t know if I want to get an augmentation. I just want to celebrate the body that I have, appreciate what it’s capable of, but also be able to share how I’m feeling about it. I can still feel sad or frustrated about how certain parts of it have changed, and being able to say that out loud to people I trust and have them just listen without trying to convince me to feel differently was so helpful.

01;09;15;14 – 01;09;35;04

Dr. Mona

And that’s exactly what Zoe was talking about. Body image resilience means we can have these uncomfortable feelings about our body and still respect for them and care for them and appreciate them. And I think about what that means for our kids when our child comes to us and says, I hate my belly or I wish I look different, our instinct is often to jump in and tell them how beautiful they are.

01;09;35;11 – 01;09;51;11

Dr. Mona

Of course we want to reassure them, but so much of this is saying, tell me more about that and listen to what they have to say, because I want my kids to know they can come to me with these feelings. I want them to know that they don’t have to pretend to love every part of themselves to make them feel comfortable or me feel comfortable.

01;09;51;13 – 01;10;10;27

Dr. Mona

You can appreciate your body for everything it does well having days when you struggle with how it looks, and you deserve to have people in your life that understand that as well. So if this conversation resonated with you, please share it with a friend, especially another parent who might be working through their own body image resilience struggles while trying to raise kids with a healthier relationship with theirs.

01;10;11;00 – 01;10;24;05

Dr. Mona

And when you share on social because that really helps, make sure you tag the PedsDocTalk podcast and My Body Positive Home because we love hearing what you have to say. Thank you for being here and I’ll see you all next time on the PedsDocTalk podcast.