On social media, there are many distinct parenting styles noted on various accounts—Positive parenting. Gentle parenting. Attachment parenting. But, is one really superior than the other?

I welcome Cara Goodwin (@parentingtranslator) who is a clinical psychologist, mom, and who translates the research on child development and parenting in an easy-to-understand way for parents to chat all about the types of shows our kids watch. We discuss:

• What we know about popular parenting styles and what we don’t know
• What does the research say about gentle parenting?
• What is NOT okay to do in any parenting style you choose?

Find Dr. Cara Goodwin on Instagram @parentingtranslator or visit her website parentingtranslator.org

00;00;01;01 – 00;00;23;02

Cara Goodwin

These different parenting styles that are out there attachment parenting, gentle parenting, whatever it is, these are not religions. You know, you don’t have to choose one and believe in every tenet of that parenting style. You know, personally, I take some from attachment parenting. I take stuff from gentle parenting, I take some from old school parenting, for lack of a better term.

 

00;00;23;03 – 00;00;47;02

Cara Goodwin

And you have to kind of take the different strategies and find what works for your child. And there are parts of each of these parenting styles that are backed by research, and there are parts that we don’t have research for. So I think it’s very important for parents to know that a lot of these parenting styles that you see out there, you know, there are some beneficial parts to them.

 

00;00;47;02 – 00;01;01;10

Cara Goodwin

And if it works for your family, like that’s great, you should run with it. But if there are parts that don’t seem to be working, then you shouldn’t feel like you failed as a parent or you know you can’t call yourself a gentle parent or an attachment anymore.

 

00;01;01;12 – 00;01;21;24

Dr. Mona

Welcome back to the show. Thank you for joining me as I welcome another amazing guest onto this podcast and someone I’ve actually had on the show already. Remember to leave a review and share this episode. If you find it helpful. And I cannot wait to have another great episode in store for you! On this episode I welcome back Cara Goodwin.

 

00;01;21;24 – 00;01;44;18

Dr. Mona

She was on earlier this year in 2023 talking about our certain TV shows harmful for Your Child. She is a child psychologist mom who translates the research on child development and parenting in an easy to understand way for parents to use and apply for their families. And we are talking today about what the research says about preferred parenting styles.

 

00;01;44;20 – 00;01;47;09

Dr. Mona

Thank you for coming back on the show today, Kara.

 

00;01;47;11 – 00;01;49;04

Cara Goodwin

Thank you so much for having me.

 

00;01;49;06 – 00;02;10;11

Dr. Mona

I am excited to have you. Like I said, that other episode that we recorded about TV shows and are certain shows harmful for your children were so great. I love getting to talk about the research, applying it to real life, which is what you do if people listening are not familiar with you. Tell us more about yourself and why you started doing this on social media, especially as the Parenting translator.

 

00;02;10;11 – 00;02;13;26

Dr. Mona

An amazing account. Breaking down all that research?

 

00;02;13;28 – 00;02;38;06

Cara Goodwin

Yes. So I’m a child psychologist and a mother. And, you know, I was a child psychologist first and spent my days, doing research and communicating the research to the patients. I was seeing and helping them to apply the research to their parenting. And then I became a mother, and I would be talking to, you know, my other parent friends at the playground or whatever.

 

00;02;38;08 – 00;03;01;15

Cara Goodwin

And I would say, well, you know, we talking about a topic and I’d say, well, you know, about this research. And they would look at me like, no, I have no idea what you’re talking about. So I realized there was this huge problem, that there’s all this research out there that has the potential to be helpful to parents, to help them make decisions about parenting, but it’s not reaching the people who need it, which are the parents in this situation?

 

00;03;01;19 – 00;03;20;28

Cara Goodwin

There seemed to be like a huge gap between the people doing the research and the people who could benefit from it, and there’s really nobody who’s getting it out there to the parents. So I during the pandemic, I was pregnant with my third child and I was like a lot of us like intellectually bored. Although not bored. Bored because.

 

00;03;20;28 – 00;03;21;10

Dr. Mona

I have little.

 

00;03;21;10 – 00;03;39;09

Cara Goodwin

Kids. And I thought, you know, I’m just going to start writing up research summaries because I’m reading this research anyways. And I started putting it out there on social media, and a lot of my friends told me, you know, this is so helpful. I had no idea about this, and I just kind of kept going and kept getting positive feedback that, you know, this was really helpful to parents.

 

00;03;39;09 – 00;03;49;15

Cara Goodwin

So I turned this effort into a nonprofit organization. And my goal is really just to get the research out there to as many parents as possible.

 

00;03;49;17 – 00;04;07;15

Dr. Mona

And I love what you’re doing. Like I said, even on the last conversation that we had, because there is a lot of information out there, and what you’re doing is so helpful because you’re breaking it down in an easy to understand way. Right? So, okay, you can read an article, you can say this is what it is. But for some parents, especially with research, let’s be honest, you do it all the time.

 

00;04;07;18 – 00;04;24;17

Dr. Mona

It’s not that straightforward to just read and research article and know well, what does this mean? How do I apply it clinically? How do I apply it to development and parenting like you’re doing? So that is a lot of work that you do. So thank you for doing all of that for us. It’s just such a great thing to see on social media and really breaking down so much information out there for parents.

 

00;04;24;17 – 00;04;25;28

Dr. Mona

It’s so useful.

 

00;04;26;01 – 00;04;35;04

Cara Goodwin

Thank you. I love doing it. So yeah, I’m such a nerd. I would be reading the research anyways, so I’m happy to be helping other people with my nerdy pursuits.

 

00;04;35;04 – 00;04;50;25

Dr. Mona

Yes, and I love that you’re also a psychologist. I mean, that’s great, right? The fact that you have the clinical experience also to be like, okay, here’s what we know. And obviously how can we apply? Like I said, that’s the thing that I just love the most about your platform. And we already chatted last time on another episode about TV shows.

 

00;04;50;25 – 00;05;01;23

Dr. Mona

And are certain TV shows harmful? So if you have not listened to that episode already, everyone make sure you listen to that. We debuted it earlier this year in 2023, and then today we’re talking about.

 

00;05;01;25 – 00;05;02;13

Cara Goodwin

Preferred.

 

00;05;02;13 – 00;05;29;07

Dr. Mona

Parenting styles. So there are a lot of titles for parenting styles. There’s gentle parenting, and I’m putting this in quotes because there’s so many of them, right. Gentle parenting, attachment parenting, positive parenting. And I mean, I recently heard of something called elephant parenting. There’s just so many parenting styles out there from your understanding. And of the research especially, is there a preferred parenting style based on the research that we have?

 

00;05;29;09 – 00;05;57;27

Cara Goodwin

Yeah. So it was really interesting as a child psychologist because I was a child psychologist first, and then I kind of dumped the parenting social media world. And I saw these terms out there, like gentle parenting, attachment parenting. You know, like you said, elephant parenting and I was kind of shocked because, you know, as psychologists and as researchers, we don’t really use these terms in these terms, you know, even a very common one that you see on social media, which seems well defined.

 

00;05;57;29 – 00;06;24;16

Cara Goodwin

Gentle parenting is actually not well defined in the research and has not been studied. So the the terms that we use as psychologists and researchers actually aren’t as sexy as these terms. Definitely. Yeah. So the terms we use for parenting styles are authoritarian, which means lots of rules and limits, but not a lot of warmth. Authoritative, which means rules and limits, but also a lot of warmth at the same time.

 

00;06;24;19 – 00;07;01;01

Cara Goodwin

And permissive parenting, which means no rules and limits, but a lot of warmth. And so basically, it’s a balance between authoritative parenting is a balance between having rules and limits, but also having a lot of warmth and love as a parent. And that type of parenting where you’re balancing those two is really associated with the best outcome. So better parent child relationship, better child behavior, even following children up into adulthood, you know, better well-being as adults, being more independent, you know, socially, emotionally capable adults.

 

00;07;01;03 – 00;07;38;16

Cara Goodwin

So authoritative parenting is what’s linked with the best outcomes, but it’s a little different from the gentle parenting that I see on social media. So gentle parenting, as it’s defined on social media, involves no consequences, no use of consequences that aren’t natural, no use of timeout, no use of reward, very limited use of praise. Yeah, but a lot of these behavioral strategies are what the research has found to be most effective at improving child behavior and also at improving the parent child relationship.

 

00;07;38;18 – 00;08;08;02

Cara Goodwin

So we have no evidence that gentle parenting on its own, without the consequences, without the use of reward systems, without the use of timeout, actually is able to improve behavior. So when I say we have no evidence for that, it doesn’t mean that gentle parenting won’t work for your child’s career. And I think if gentle parenting is working for your child, the tenets of gentle parenting are the basis of every parenting program out there.

 

00;08;08;03 – 00;08;34;23

Cara Goodwin

You know, building the child parent child relationship is so important and that is how every parenting program starts. Is these gentle parenting techniques focusing on building the relationship. And then after you’ve worked on the relationship, then you bring in consequences and these other tools. But we have no evidence that without those tools, you can effectively improve behavior. But if it does work for your child, that’s amazing and you should keep doing it.

 

00;08;34;23 – 00;08;41;10

Cara Goodwin

And you shouldn’t worry about the research. But just knowing that if, you know, I think it’s important for parents to know if you feel like you do need.

 

00;08;41;10 – 00;08;42;16

Dr. Mona

To use.

 

00;08;42;19 – 00;09;00;28

Cara Goodwin

Some other tools, whether it’s reward systems, whether it’s timeouts, whether it’s, you know, some logical consequences for your child, that we have no evidence that those are harmful and we have evidence that they can be very effective at improving behavior. So I just don’t want parents to feel any shame. Yeah. Incorporate those strategies.

 

00;09;01;00 – 00;09;21;11

Dr. Mona

Oh, 100%. And like you care like I obviously knew parenting. I’ve been discussing parenting for years before coming on social. Right. And then I came on social media in 2019. At that time, I was sticking more to health. But parenting has always been my most favorite thing to talk about, even in visits. But I was doing more health stuff, a little bit of parenting, dabbling into that.

 

00;09;21;17 – 00;09;41;11

Dr. Mona

And over the last two years, I really started to educate more on parenting strategies and things like that. And like you, I was like, wow. I was like, how everyone’s talking about this quote unquote gentle parenting. And that’s not something we learned about when you think about parenting styles and just thinking about setting limits and boundaries and consequences, like you mentioned.

 

00;09;41;14 – 00;10;12;05

Dr. Mona

And as I learn more about it, like you said perfectly, I think it’s wonderful if someone likes the style, feels like it’s working for their child, but then what happens? And what I’ve seen so much of is it’s also thinking about attachment parenting, right? Thinking about all the different labels that we put on a certain style. When you start to not want to stick to that style and want to deviate like you said, Jesse, you are doing more of a, you know, co regulation situation with your child and gentle parenting, which by the way, I do a lot of that’s what we do in our family.

 

00;10;12;12 – 00;10;34;15

Dr. Mona

But what if it’s not working? What if you’re like, I could really use another alternative. What if potty training is not working in a gentle parenting style and rewards may work for your child? Our son, we potty trained him with an Eminem and I have no regrets about it. You learn how to water train. You love those emotions and we phase them out and you know so much.

 

00;10;34;17 – 00;10;58;19

Dr. Mona

What I get concerned about with gentle parenting and other labels is that, oh, you can’t use rewards, you can’t do this. But what if it’s a good option for that child? Like, it doesn’t mean it’s the only option. But I feel like when we get into these styles, it can really shut you off. Or maybe another option that could benefit your child and what you said is okay in the research, like using a reward system, occasionally praising occasionally.

 

00;10;58;19 – 00;11;01;25

Dr. Mona

You know, obviously we know those things to be beneficial for children.

 

00;11;01;27 – 00;11;22;15

Cara Goodwin

Yes, definitely. And I think it’s so important. I always say to parents that, you know, these different parenting styles that are out there attachment parenting, gentle parenting, whatever it is, these are not religions. You know, you don’t have to choose one and believe in every tenet of that parenting style. You know, personally, I take some from attachment parenting.

 

00;11;22;15 – 00;11;44;15

Cara Goodwin

I take some from gentle parenting. I take some from old school parenting, for lack of a better term. You know, it’s you have to kind of take the different strategies and find what works for your child. And there are parts of each of these parenting styles that are backed by research. And there are parts that we don’t have research for.

 

00;11;44;15 – 00;12;15;26

Cara Goodwin

So I think it’s very important for parents to know that a lot of these parenting styles that you see out there, you know, there are some beneficial parts to them. And if it works for your family, like that’s great, you should run with it. But if there are parts that don’t seem to be working, then you shouldn’t feel like you failed as a parent or you know you can’t call yourself a gentle parent or an attachment anymore, that you are just finding the strategies and being responsive and sensitive to your child’s needs and your family’s needs.

 

00;12;15;28 – 00;12;39;29

Dr. Mona

I love it. Yes. And like you said, like I even though I may not say that I’m a gentle parenting account, obviously, like you mentioned, there are so many components of gentle parenting attachment parenting, positive parenting that I incorporate, and that guilt and that shame is what I am also trying to protect my listeners from and my platform from what you’re doing, too, is that we’re not going to lead you astray and let you do anything with your child that is truly harmful, like we do.

 

00;12;39;29 – 00;13;03;04

Dr. Mona

Know that obviously corporal punishment like slapping, hitting. I think every parenting account should be saying that that’s not okay. Threats like incessant threats, like, you know, you don’t do this and I’m going to do this. Like, that is obviously not something that I love. Incessant yelling. We all know that we’re going to yell like it’s a human nature thing, but if it’s constant yelling in your home, we also know that that’s not ideal.

 

00;13;03;06 – 00;13;16;16

Dr. Mona

Is there anything else that you would say from the research you can add on to what I just mentioned, but anything else from the research that we know, that is probably something that we should stay away from, regardless of what parenting style you choose or a parenting philosophy you align with.

 

00;13;16;18 – 00;13;51;04

Cara Goodwin

Yeah. So definitely what you mentioned spanking, other sorts of physical punishment, yelling, threats. Something else is what in research we call psychological control, which is like seeing and shaming children. And that’s something like telling kids they’re bad or saying that, you know, because you did this, you caused all sorts of problems internally, but any sort of thing that where you’re putting shame onto your child, making them think that they are quote unquote, a bad kid, I think anything that’s overly controlling.

 

00;13;51;04 – 00;14;14;08

Cara Goodwin

So research really finds support for what’s called autonomy, supportive parenting. So allowing your children to have choices that are developmentally appropriate, like choosing what color socks you put on in the morning for a toddler. And as children get older, you give them more and more choices in their life, and you allow them to make mistakes and even fail based on their own choices.

 

00;14;14;08 – 00;14;39;08

Cara Goodwin

So being overly controlling with your children, you know, making all decisions for them, telling them what they have to do, you know, especially as children get older, can have a lot of negative consequences. I also think it’s important to remember that some of these tools I mentioned, like timeout and reward systems and logical consequences, can help to avoid using some of these things that we know are harmful.

 

00;14;39;10 – 00;14;56;28

Cara Goodwin

I know for me, in my house, sibling aggression is a big trigger for me personally as a mother, you know, it doesn’t matter if it was my other child who did it. Somebody just hurt my baby. You know, my kid is crying. There’s a huge bonk on his head like my momma bear instincts are going to turn on, and I’m going to be angry.

 

00;14;57;00 – 00;15;23;13

Cara Goodwin

And I know that about myself. So we do timeout for sibling aggression. There’s nothing punitive about it. You know, I say very calmly, you hit your brother. Timeout. Yeah. Gives me a chance to cool myself down and to also comfort the child who was hurt. And then I can actually handle the situation in an effective way. You know, I think if I wasn’t doing timeout, I think it would be very easy for me to start screaming at the child.

 

00;15;23;13 – 00;15;46;04

Cara Goodwin

And, you know, and I know that’s not an effective technique. So I think when we have no evidence that something like timeout is harmful and you feel like it could help you to avoid some of these things that we know are harmful, that it’s very important to be like, okay, I’m going to use that technique because that’s what makes sense for my family.

 

00;15;46;06 – 00;16;10;25

Dr. Mona

Well, you bring up another great point because you’re talking about having multiple children in the household, right? So just so you had that one child, you could have easily done a more sort of, let’s say, gentle parenting style, where you’re going to sit with them, regulate all of that stuff. But when you have another child, like you said, your mama bear instinct with hitting and all of that, having tools in your tool belt, and especially what we’re talking about here, like, what are my other strategies besides that?

 

00;16;10;25 – 00;16;31;20

Dr. Mona

When I’m having to attend to multiple children or when I’m feeling dysregulated myself, it’s so important that we have those options. And that’s why I really gravitate towards parenting accounts and accounts in general, like yourself, who are talking about not vilifying rewards or praise or you know, time outs and teaching people, okay, here’s how we’re going to do it.

 

00;16;31;20 – 00;16;51;17

Dr. Mona

Here is obviously why it’s okay, because a parent listening to this may be like, I would never do that, ever. But then they find themselves in a situation where like, maybe I will do that. Maybe it actually will benefit this child in this situation or the temperament of the child. One thing I have a really hard time with is a lot of the gentle parenting strategies.

 

00;16;51;17 – 00;17;09;18

Dr. Mona

If we’re going to talk about gentle parenting a little more, they don’t take into account a lot of my patients who have ADHD. I’m going to be honest, a lot of children who have ADHD may not. They may, but they may not respond to the more gentle parenting tactics. They may need more of a timeout, like you just said perfectly.

 

00;17;09;21 – 00;17;30;05

Dr. Mona

Hey, you did this timeout right? Versus we’re not doing threats, we’re not doing yelling. And that’s why I think this is so important, because it does go down to every child is unique in their temperament and parents and tools. And what would you say would be a pitfall of maybe we’ve already discussed it, but a pitfall of aligning too hard with one parenting style.

 

00;17;30;05 – 00;17;33;22

Dr. Mona

Like is there some things that you see even as a child psychologist?

 

00;17;33;24 – 00;17;56;28

Cara Goodwin

Yeah, I think like you said, I think that aligning too hard with one style is not really being responsive and sensitive to the individual child that you have. And I find in my practice that gentle parenting in particular seems to be the most challenging for parents with neurodiverse young kids or with kids who are more spirited in temperament.

 

00;17;57;00 – 00;18;20;12

Cara Goodwin

I personally have three very spirited kids, and I’m I you know, I do use emotional validation and co regulation, a lot of these techniques and I think they are important. But I think there are times when I need to use logical consequences and when I need to use rewards. And I think based on my individual children that those strategies are most effective.

 

00;18;20;12 – 00;18;44;06

Cara Goodwin

And I think when you align two strongly with one parenting style, it’s very easy to feel like there’s something wrong with you or there’s something wrong with your child when it’s not working. And I think it’s very important for parents to know, like, every family is different, every child is different. If these parenting styles aren’t working for you, aren’t working for your child.

 

00;18;44;06 – 00;19;02;22

Cara Goodwin

It does not in any way mean there’s anything wrong with you as a parent or with your child. It just means maybe it’s time to try something new and to see it as a kind of trial and error experimentation, rather than, if this doesn’t work, then I have no option. Yeah, I.

 

00;19;02;22 – 00;19;16;29

Dr. Mona

Have no option. And then filled with guilt and shame for the parent, right? I mean, I’ve seen it like and especially like these strategies don’t work for me. It’s not working. Like, what am I doing wrong? And like you said, maybe it’s not what you’re doing wrong. Maybe it’s that we need another strategy for you. And I love what you’re doing.

 

00;19;16;29 – 00;19;38;04

Dr. Mona

I just think this is so important. And parents just need tools and options and understanding that they’re not damaging their kids, especially on social media. I feel like the parents on social media are way more worried about ruining their kids because of all the contradictory information, right? They see this account saying one thing and they see this account and it’s like they’re feeling like, well, I’m doing it wrong.

 

00;19;38;04 – 00;19;54;24

Dr. Mona

And I just want parents to really listen and tune into, you’re not doing everything wrong. You’re actually doing a lot of things really right. And sometimes it’s the way information is given to you that you have to kind of see what works best for your family. So you’re doing this every day. Kara and I just again, so appreciate what you do with breaking all this down.

 

00;19;54;27 – 00;19;55;14

Dr. Mona

Thank you so.

 

00;19;55;14 – 00;19;58;23

Cara Goodwin

Much. Like I said, I love doing it, so it’s my pleasure.

 

00;19;58;25 – 00;20;17;15

Dr. Mona

Well, I would love to have you back on or I’m going to have to have someone on to talk about praise and particular timeouts in particular reward systems in particular. I actually did have everyone listening. I did have Doctor Jenica, who is also a child psychologist, come on and talk to me about reward systems and why it’s not bad, and how she also use a reward system to potty train her daughter.

 

00;20;17;15 – 00;20;26;16

Dr. Mona

And so like we said, this is all about knowing what options you have as a family with your children. Kara, any final thoughts or messages for everyone listening today?

 

00;20;26;18 – 00;20;48;19

Cara Goodwin

The only final thought I would say is when you see a social media account say that something is harming your child, especially if it says it’s harming your child’s brain development. But make sure a red flag goes up in your head. And when you hear that kind of language that is shaming to parents, try to think about what are the sources, what are this person’s credentials?

 

00;20;48;19 – 00;20;54;27

Cara Goodwin

And is it possible that what they’re saying doesn’t apply to me and my child.

 

00;20;54;29 – 00;21;12;29

Dr. Mona

Oh, I could go on and on about how it all my I mean sleep training, all this stuff with timeouts I mean sometimes feel scared that like oh I’m especially on social I feel like I’m like what alternative reality am I on? Because in my real life practice, I’m able to make so many changes with all the strategies that I’m seeing, right?

 

00;21;12;29 – 00;21;33;04

Dr. Mona

Whether a family chooses to sleep, train or not, obviously none of this is required, right? But certain strategy timeout data, it doesn’t mean that that’s the only thing that family has in their toolbelt. But it’s like having this discussion. And then I come on social. I feel like I’m the only one along with you and along with a lot of the other child psychologist that I love that are like, actually all it’s okay if you do this stuff.

 

00;21;33;07 – 00;21;54;10

Dr. Mona

So I feel like we’re in a minority when we should be the majority to say, actually, this is what we know and we’re not just saying it because just to say it, we’re saying it because the research but also clinical experience. And you work as a psychologist and I’m a pediatrician, that I wouldn’t say any of these things if I was at any moment unsure that it was causing any harm to our children, things like that.

 

00;21;54;10 – 00;22;08;29

Dr. Mona

I’m happy you went back to the things you laid out to some of the few things that are not so great in parenting styles, like, shaming and all of that because that’s important for people to hear. We want to make sure that it’s not like everything you do as a parent is okay. We have to understand that there are certain things that you’re not going to do.

 

00;22;08;29 – 00;22;15;25

Dr. Mona

But besides those things that Kara mentioned, you’re doing a great job and have options at your, you know, at your disposal here.

 

00;22;15;27 – 00;22;16;25

Cara Goodwin

Yes, exactly.

 

00;22;17;00 – 00;22;27;21

Dr. Mona

Love it. Well, thank you so much for joining me today. Where can everyone find you, including your Instagram handle? I know you have a fantastic newsletter so tell everyone where they can get that information.

 

00;22;27;23 – 00;22;44;01

Cara Goodwin

Yes. So I’m on Instagram at Parenting Translator. My newsletter is also on Substack and it’s Parenting Translator, and I’m on TikTok at Parenting Translator, and I have a website, parenting translator.org with lots of great free resources for parents.

 

00;22;44;03 – 00;23;12;21

Dr. Mona

Awesome. And I’m going to be attaching all of this to our shownotes so that you can access it easily, but definitely follow her. Like I said on Instagram, get on her newsletter. Really useful information. And I mentioned this already, but the reason I love care so much is I to be able to go through all of that. Research takes so much time and I’ll be on my social media and I’ll see you say, hey, people have been asking me about this, and I’m like, great, because I may not have time to go through everything, but I can direct my followers.

 

00;23;12;21 – 00;23;24;10

Dr. Mona

I can direct people to your information and say, here you go. Let’s look at this post. Here is what we know about that research study that just came out. So thank you for doing this work. It helps me. It helps so many families.

 

00;23;24;12 – 00;23;26;02

Cara Goodwin

Thank you so much.

 

00;23;26;04 – 00;23;53;00

Dr. Mona

And for everyone listening I remind you to go check out our other episode, our certain TV shows harmful for Your child. And if you love that episode, if you love this episode, show us some love. Definitely show us some love. Leave a review wherever you can. Leave reviews. Call out her name, say what you loved about the episode, and make sure you share the episode on social media and tag us parenting translator and kids doctor so we can see that you loved it, and I can’t wait to have another guest on next time!

 

00;23;53;02 – 00;23;57;23

Dr. Mona

Thank you for tuning in for this week’s episode. As always, please leave a review.

 

00;23;57;25 – 00;24;01;25

Dr. Mona

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00;24;01;25 – 00;24;08;24

Dr. Mona

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